Releases plus this syllabus as well as Industry News and trends through insider interviews. You can find about books on cspan now are free mobile app or wherever you get your podcasts. I am cynthia schuster, i am the volunteer coordinator for the wisconsin book festival, and we are so happy to have you here tonight to join us for this presentation featuring kenneth miller, author of trim and posted in a partnership with wisconsin science festival. Before we begin willal so want o thank the madison public library, the medicine book Library Foundation and all of the sponsors for making this incredible free celebration possible. Youve been asked this week on such a vital ask you one more time to be sure to sign that your cell phone and while you here celebrate with us today you can still use yourself up to take pictures to post on social media. You can tag the wisconsin book festival, the madison public library, or use the hashtag wi puck fast and we will share it. Excited to share it. Todays presentation is being recorded by cspan, and so were asking that when you have questions during our q a portion please come up to the microphone over here and speak into the microphone. That make sure the t home audiee can hear you and be part of this event as well. So i wanted to share a little anecdote that yesterday i opened up Facebook First thing in the morning, and the first thing to pop up on my screen was a mean that a friend of mine shared pickett said everyday i wake up and begin the 16 a process of getting ready for bed. [laughing] and i thought, yeah, thats, thats me. Yeah, really, right . And i came upon this meme at 4 30 a. M. Because i woke up and i couldnt get back to sleep. And they give up. U i just decide to get up and make some coffee and go about my day, and that was that. I did had a productive morning but my journey back to bed took far more than 16 hours. Had to be here last night. Well, kenneth millers new book mapping the darkness delves into this important sometimes elusive facet of our lives come one thats so integral to our quality of life, yet when ignored by the Scientific Community for so long. Hisjo book takes us on a rivetig journey through the history of sleep inside and introduces us to four four scientist whoe frontier of sleep research and amid skepticism and apathy for the subject. He iss an awardwinning journalist whose work has appeared in time, life, esquire, rolling stone, and many other publications. His reporting has spanned four con eds on the topic of science, medicine, culture, criminal justice, religion and the environment, and is further testament to his versatility as a writer. Ken won the pulitzer traveling fellowshipde for his thesis on w york citys underground punk rock scene, and we are delighted to also offer free copies of the book today, courtesy of a a gt from the cheryl rosen westin estate. If you didnt get a book tonight, ccs afterwards. We will take down your Contact Information and ship you the book, the matter where you live. And the next time that you wake up in the middle of the night unable to get back to sleep, let this be your bedside companion. And please join it and getting a warm ken miller. [applause] well, thank you, cynthia, for the lovely introduction. Thanks to you, the wisconsin book festival and science festival for having me, and thank you to everybody here for coming tonight. Probably has nod your notice that americans are grappling with a fairly head spinning array of crises these days. The with the most apocalyptic potential the climate crisis, for example tend to dominate the headlines and our social media feeds. But the code red that affects the most people on a daily or nightly basis may our National Sleep crisis. According to the centers for Disease Control and prevention, 35 of us get less than 7 hours of shut eye a night. Thats the tipping point. A pilot studies show for increased risk of obesity diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular disease, depression and dementia. Around 17 million of us suffer a medically recognized sleep disorder ranging common ailments like insomnia and sleep apnea to rare afflictions like exploding head syndrome, characterized by a terrifying of hallucinated noise or Rapid Eye Movement behavior disorder, whose victims act out their nightmares, sometimes injuring or killing their mates. Scientists have developed effective treatments for many sleep disorders based a growing understanding of the biological machinery that drives slumber. And its. But theyve also that a large proportion of sleep troubles arise not from glitches in our individual or neuropsychology, but from societal factors that play havoc with our internal. Shift work school schedules, the late night temptations of our digital devices, the stresses stimuli of a 24 hour culture beyond the effects on bodily and Mental Health. These disruptions can lead to calamities of drowsiness, car crashes, medical industrial accidents and disasters ranging from the Exxon Valdez Oil spill to the explosion of the Space Shuttle challenger. A recent study by the Rand Corporation found that insufficient sleep cost the us 411 billion a year in lost economic output. And the problem is global surveys show that around the world, fewer than half of adults feel theyre getting enough sleep. Were paying for our sleep deficits in many different currencies. Now. I first learned about the sleep crisis in 2013 when Discover Magazine assigned me a story on the latest breakthroughs in sleep science. The researchers i interviewed emphasized how important it was to fight this growing threat. But the weight of its potential consequences really home for me. Soon after the piece was published. That summer, my 87 year old father fell asleep at the wheel of his car and plowed a tree. He survived despite serious injuries, but the accident marked, the end of his ability to live independently. From my reporting, i knew that daytime sleepiness in older adults typically stems from the decline of sleep quality with advancing age sooner or later. Sleep trouble touches us all. My reporting brought another realization how far sleep science had traveled since the 1920s, when a physiologist named nathaniel kleinman began transforming it into an discipline. A a century ago, there was no thing as a full time sleep scientist. Many experts saw slumber as a wasteful habit that we could to overcome, although doctors noticed a rising tide of sleeplessness, no one bothered tracking the statistics. Fewer than a dozen sleep disorders had been identified at a fraction of the number or recognized today. No one thought that treating them could become the focus of a medical career, let alone the basis for a multibillion dollar sleep health industry. Could have imagined that wed all be using cpr apps and wearing sleep trackers on our wrists. Well, that may wonder how did science come in from the fringe to become a global obsession . And what could we learn from that journey that might help us understand and overcome the crisis were facing today . My book, mapping the darkness, explores those questions through, the stories of four seminal figures a quartet of pioneers who devoted their lives to unlocking the mysteries of sleep and to pushing society to recognize its importance. The first pioneer is kleinman, whos known as the founder of modern sleep science. Kleinman found his way to the field as a refugee, searching for a foothold in his new country. He was born in the russian city of kitchener in 1895. Just as life for in the tsarist empire was growing from bad to horrible as a small child, kleinman showed signs of the extraordinary intelligence that would someday fuel his fame. He learned the russian alphabet as toddler. By age four, he could solve complex arithmetic problems in his head. But it was also clear that he wouldnt be able to fulfill his potential if he stayed in his home country. After surviving two pogroms, clayton escaped a false passport to attend medical school in beirut, lebanon. But world war one erupted the day he left, and in beirut he, his russian classmates, soon became prisoners of war. They were rescued by an american battleship which dropped him on a greek island. From there, cleveland made way to new york citys lower east side. He spent a year living in a tenement flat doing odd jobs for a dollar a day. Then he enrolled at city college, known as the poor mans harvard for its free tuition and high academic standards. Graduated at the top of his class by that time. Kleinman he wanted to go into Research Rather than medicine. He moved on to columbia for an m. A. In physiology and then to the university of chicago for ph. D. But he worked to launch his academic career. Kleinman encountered an obstacle he thought hed left behind in russia, the twin forces of nativism and antisemitism. Both were gaining across america, driven in part by fears of contagion from europes radical movements, which many conservatives blamed on a jewish led conspiracy, immigrants from eastern were especially suspect in academia, leading schools like harvard, yale and columbia impose strict quotas. Jewish students in the 1920s and who sought academic jewish jobs also faced steep hurdles. When kleinman finished masters, the number of on the faculties of u. S. Colleges and University Fees was probably under 100 before he could begin his doctoral in earnest. He had to choose an area of concentration, but its origins place some roots off limits because jewish scholars unwelcome in many long entrenched disciplines, they often newer fields cutting edge Sciences Like psychiatry, biochemistry and, immunology. Clement found his own niche when he came across a book called le probleme physiologic. You saw me in english the physiological study of sleep, which gave a sweeping overview of sleep science its evolution since its birth just a few decades earlier. Although western thinkers had pondered the mechanics of sleep since ancient greece, aristotle thought it was triggered by vapors from the stomach to the heart. During digest. No one had studied the subject seriously until the industrial revolution. Two main forces fueled the surge in interest. The first was the drive for labor efficiency, which spurred researchers to investigate the capacities and limits of the human body because sleep affected not only a workers fitness, but the timing of the workday. Understanding dynamics was essential. The second impetus was the rise of an epidemic that emerged with the arrival of cheap and plentiful artificial lighting, which enabled millions to hitch their routines. The alarm clock and factory whistle, rather than the rhythms of dawn and dusk as insomnia grew, more common questions about how sleep worked or didnt became increasingly urgent. When claimant first became aware, a sleep science, the field was still in its infancy. Researchers had only vague clues about what triggered slumber maybe a reduction of blood flow, the brain, maybe a chemical generated by tired brain cells. The Renowned Russian scientia ivan pavlov theorized that sleep a reflex caused by a buildup of stimuli over the course of the day when the brain grew overwhelmed. He asserted it simply shut down. But the evidence for any of these ideas was scarce at best. Another enigma why people slept heavily at some points during the night and lightly at others. An estonian researcher had discovered that sleep depth fluctuates rhythmically through the night, but one was sure whether those dips in rises followed predetermined cycles or occurred in response to external conditions. Researchers had also found that when sleepers pulse rate and respiration spiked in unison, it meant they were dreaming. But what cause dreams remained unknown . Debate raged to over whether. Sleep was controlled by specific centers in the brain with no way to neural activity. Though scientists could only speculate. One thing that scientists could measure directly was how organisms were affected by a lack of sleep. A russian researcher had that prolonged sleep deprivation could be deadlier than starvation. She reached that conclusion after keeping ten puppies awake for prolonged periods. Although had been known to survive for nearly a month, food the subjects of the experiment all died after a week without sleep. A pair of americans who tried similar experiments on keeping subjects awake for 90 hours, although none of them had died, they experienced symptoms that went beyond mere tiredness. Including hallucinations slowed, reaction time and weight gain. The implication for people with severe insomnia or those doing shift work seemed ominous. Yet none of these scientists had committed to exploring the mysteries of slumber. Beyond these isolated attempts, sleep was still a side line for researchers in a variety of fields. No one seemed to have thought of making it. Their lifes work. Clayman wanted to be the first to go all in. And that impulse grew out of a key insight to fully understand the disorder, like insomnia, narcolepsy, or to schedule our working lives in a healthy way, it would be necessary to develop a detailed physiological picture of normal sleep. So far, researchers only scratched the surface to make real progress. They would have to shoulder task full time, approach it in a systematic way and keep at it indefinite. The best place to start. Kleinman thought, was with the 24 hour cycles of sleep and waking. Where do these rhythms come . What were their essential characteristics . To what extent could be modified . How would such changes affect human health . Probing these questions, he sensed could keep the scientists busy for a very long time. So in 1922, kleinman proposed this course of study to his ph. D. Advisor, who warned him that hed be entirely on his own. No one at the university knew enough about sleep to supervise him to brilliant and fiercely selfmotivated scholar. The warning felt like a blessing. After his doctorate, kleinman joined the faculty, the university of chicago, where you establish the worlds first dedicated sleep lab. And for the next three decades, he remained the worlds only full time sleep. Researcher devoted to a field that no one else thought worthy of sustained attention. Along the way he helped carry sleep science, mainstream culture. The turning point came in 38 when he and and assistant spent a month in kentuckys mammoth cave trying to see if the absence of cues, sunrise and sunset made easier to adapt their sleep wake to a 28 hour cycle. The two men slept in bunks with extra long legs placed in buckets of water to keep out rats. A waiter from a nearby hotel brought meals and cigarets and away the chamber pots. The results of this experiment were inconclusive, but its outlandish details stirred a media sensation. Thrusting sleep science to the forefront of public consciousness. For the first time, clayman became, a celebrity bringing the science he championed out from underground. Clayman also wrote the first sleep science textbook, and he mentored two of the fields key innovators. One of them set the stage for a revolution, and the other wound up leading it. Eugene oransky would always remember first time he knocked on claytons office door. It opened slightly, he later wrote, and a man with a gray head, a gray complexion and, a gray smock, peered through the crack, inquired abruptly. Yes. Each had to be wary of the other as oransky, because the prospect of studying sleep filled him with anticipatory. Kleinman because the ph. D. Student seeking his mentorship lacked an undergraduate. The professor may also have detected a hint of resentment. The students demeanor. Klayman was known as the father of his, and as oransky had a problem. Patriarchs, the man had transformed sleep science, never intended to do anything of the sort. He may have been the least likely candidate imaginable for the role, yet his combative brilliance, cursed obstinacy and prickly proved wellsuited for his mythic task as forensic. He grew up in brooklyn, the son of a low rent dentist. A gambling problem. His father, boris, presided over nightly Pinnacle Games in their shabby apartment. He often recruited the sharp witted boy as a partner. Beyond that, boris showed interest in parenting. Around 10 p. M. When assurance he would ask about dinner. His dads customary response. Im not hungry. How can you be hungry, boris was verbally abusive too. And when the family dog annoyed him, he would it across the room. So after minsky developed permanent hostility towards father figures, and though he was a brilliant young, he drifted for years before a direction in life. He attended college but didnt graduate work desk jobs in an ice company in an Unemployment Office served in the army during world war two, but never saw or rose above dark. Private. In 1949, when he was 28, aciman took his g. I. Bill scholarship. Enrolled in the ph. D. Program physiology at the university of chicago. His dismay the only advisor available was kleinman, who specialized in a discipline as oransky considered a literal snooze, but with no other, he became an apprentice sleep researcher. Claimant recently become interested in eye movements and blinking at different points in the sleep wake cycle as one of astor minskys first assignments. Kleinman asked him to observe infants eyelids as they lay in their cribs through patient vigilance. As oransky detected something, no one had noticed before. During sleep, babies eyes stopped moving for a period of 20 minutes out of every hour after. Inskeep wasnt sure what to make of this. But for the next phase of his research, he decided to watch the eyes of through the night as no other had ever done. His plan was to scrutinize eye movements relative to brainwave patterns that investigators had preview identified with different sleep stages. He hoped the combination of measurements would uncover. He put it some unrevealed aspect of brain function. And to do this assurance, he rigged up an old polygraph that he found in the basement of the physiology building, a device that could eeg patterns and muscle impulses at the same time. And when he ran his first tests on his eight year old son, almond, he noticed something really weird periodically, eyes, ping pong back and forth or up and down at the same time. His brainwaves showed a pattern that resembled waking. Over the next year, asterisk around dozens of sleep tests on other and they all showed the same pattern. He began to call it the Rapid Eye Movement period, later abbreviated as rem. But what did it mean. One possibility seemed obvious as oransky started waking up his and asking them, did you dream . The answer during rem was. Far more often than in other of sleep. In 1953, asa minsky, published an article with kleinman in the journal science, reporting on this strange. Within a few years the paper would be recognized revolutionary, but at first it attracted little notice, and by the time it was published, asterisks had had a falling out with kleinman and left the university of chicago, the ostensible cause of the blowup was claimants insistence that oransky sit in another room. While kleinman explained the discovery of rem to the universitys publicist which astor minsky regarded as an unforgivable sleight. He quickly found a research job at the university of chicago studying the of electrical currents on fish. Scientists eventually recognized rem what one researcher called a new in the brain. Before long haul fleets of explorer would set out to chart its contours. Yet asterisk initially had little sense of its importance, even failed to grasp how fundamental the map of sleep was about to change. Instead, the first scientist to recognize rems potential was another student of claimants, william dement. To demented, come to the university of chicago as a medical student intending to become a psychiatrist. He grew up in rural state. But hed cast the conventions of his farm town upbringing and become something of a bohemian. He played jazz bass, and he was a devotee of sigmund freud. Dement fell in love with sleep science during a lecture by klayman when the revelations struck him that to understand consciousness, we have to understand what must be given to enter unconsciousness. After the lecture he knocked on claimants office door and, begged to work in his lab. Claimant him to help answer minsky with rem experiments. Dement, an ardent, ardent believer in freuds notion that dreams were the royal to the unconscious, was thrilled when he heard that rem sleep was was most dreaming occurred. So after assurances left for seattle, dement began running rem studies of his own. Over the next few. Dement revealed new details. Rem. He found that it followed a predictable pattern beginning after sleep passed through four stages of increasing. It occurred every 90 minutes throughout the night with the periods growing longer toward morning, rem sleep seemed to have been programed to the basic rhythms, the brain. Clearly, it was important, but what was it for . Dement had a hypothesis based on freuds theory. That dream served as a safety for unconscious desires that might otherwise erupt during waking as psychosis. Rem believed was necessary to keep sane for the next two decades. Tried to prove his hypothesis through ingeniously designed experiments in which he deprived humans or cats of rem sleep. In the end, though, he had to admit hed been mistaken. Creatures could go without remedy, with no ill effects beyond maybe increased excitability, irritability, appetite. But the immense rem experiments also overturned established notions of sleep as a state in which the brains shut down and nothing much happened. Instead, he showed that the sleeping brain was as active as the waking brain. A finding that drew a growing influx of curious researchers to, sleep science. That surge of interest turn led to a string of important during rem sleep. For example, the brain kept animals paralyzed. To prevent them from injuring by acting out their dreams, narcolepsy had turned out with a disorder characterized by misplaced rem activity, including dreamlike hallucinations and the temporary paralysis known as cataplexy. These findings inspired dement to establish first modern sleep clinic at Stanford University and to invent the field sleep medicine under his leadership. Researchers unlocking the secrets of disorders insomnia, sleep apnea, restless leg syndrome, and more. Today, there are 2500 sleep clinics in the United States alone and the world sleep society, which represents scientists and clinicians on every continent but antarctica. Both 14,000 members. All the of the mens quest to prove a freudian theory that turned out to have no in reality, dements pioneering work in sleep medicine also convinced him that sleep quality was not just a matter of an individuals biology and habits. It was a Public Health issue tied to the way we ordered our family, our economy and institutions. He became the first high profile scientist to for changes in the way society approaches sleep. Preaching the gospel from College Campuses to tv talk shows on the less morally clear cut side, dement was one of the first sleep scientists to do drug testing for pharmaceutical companies. But he eventually realized that this was not a reliable way to ensure funding for vital basic sleep research. So he lobbied congress to establish a National Center for sleep Disorders Research at the nih, and one in the center, founded in 1993. The first Government Agency on the planet devoted to slumber within a decade, funding sleep research had tripled the number, scale and ambition of sleep studies expanded accordingly, and their Growth Continues to this day. So those the first three protagonists of my book, kleinman, esther minsky and danette, youll notice something different. The fourth one. Mary carrs garden. Shes not a man. At the time she sleep science, that alone made her stand out. But her work earned her a place as one of the fields great pioneers. Curse garden had no thought of becoming a scientist when she signed on his defense Lab Assistant in 1970. A recent college from small town pennsylvania. She had no clear vision of her future as a child. Shed been fascinated by the workings of the brain. But her parents and teachers had discouraged such curiosity. Girls, they said, were better off limiting their ambitions to School Teaching or just becoming wife and mother. Neither option appealed to her. But carsons new job revealed her phenomenal gifts, and demand soon urged her to enroll. In stanfords ph. D. Program in neuron biobehavioral sciences. While still a grad student, she devised the first tool for quantifying sleepiness an invention that vastly improved ability of sleep researchers and clinicians to gauge the daytime effects of sleep deprivation. Sleep disorders and sleep medications. Caution is best known to nonscientists for having identified the unique sleep needs of teenagers and for alerting parents and. Educators that early school start could be harmful to kids kids. What. Grabbed everyone here. Just as. Just as yes. Could. Ill start that paragraph over. Gersh gordon is best known to nonscientists, however, for having identified this unique sleep needs of teenagers and for alerting parents and educators. Early School Start Times could be harmful to kids. Like her mentor, she showed that a willingness to question common assumptions can lead to discoveries that inspire fundamental social change. When kirsten began ph. D. Research, most experts believed that teenagers needed less sleep. Younger kids coach gordon wondered if that were really true. To find out, she launched a long term study called the stanford summer sleep camp. Every summer for ten years. Chris gardner ran a combination sleepaway camp and sleep lab in the stanford dorm, studying campers, sleep patterns, degree of daytime drowsiness as grew from Young Children to adolescents. In reality, she found teenagers need more sleep to maintain full alertness during the day. That led car scouting to explore a related riddle. Why do teens insist on staying up so late at night . And why is it so hard to pry them out of bed in the morning . Conventional wisdom held the teens night owl tendencies were driven by social forces. The pressures of schoolwork, the pleasures of partying. But kirsch suspected the biological factors be responsible to test that hypothesis, she surveyed 2000 Elementary School kids across america on their preferred and actual bedtime arms in wake times, the times of day when they felt most released alert and energetic and their physical. The results pointed to biology. Sixth graders, age 11 or 12 scored higher on evening ness and lower on ness than younger children, even though they occupied the same milieu, a tendency that increased with their stage of. That she wrote meant the widespread practice of ringing the opening bell earlier at middle schools in high schools and primary ran precisely to childrens biological needs. Coach gordon went on to confirm her findings using more direct methods such taking levels of melatonin in saliva over a 24 hour period. In response, a growing number of cities and towns across the nation began pushing back start times in middle and high schools. Further research linked such moves to higher test scores as well as lower rates of depression substance use. Physical illness and car crashes later start times turned out, could actually save kids lives. To those studies, the american of pediatrics issued a recommendation that middle and High School Start the day earlier than 8 30 a. M. The American Psychological association and the american medical later followed suit. In 2019, california became first state to pass legislation along. Those lines and this past may, florida became the second. Meanwhile School Districts from australia to to south korea have launched similar reforms. Kurt godel the story how sleep science has reached beyond the lab and into our homes and communities, affecting not just how we order our own days and nights, but also how we, our kids. So the story i tell in mapping the darkness is one of amazing progress. We really have come a huge distance since nathaniel kleinman set up his lab the century ago. Yet the challenges facing sleep science remain vast. Some of the most basic questions slumber still lack definite answers, beginning with the question of why nature programed virtually all creatures with a nervous system to do it. Despite decades of digging, scientists still havent reached a consensus on sleeps essential purpose. Nor have they figured out the specific functions of rem and sleep stages. Theyre just to understand how the brainwave patterns that characterize each stage affect memory and learning, or what roles they might play in clearing toxins that can trigger alzheimers and other neurodegenerative diseases. Therapeutic puzzles persist as well, including cures for devastating sleep disorders like, narcolepsy and familial sorry, fatal familial insomnia. Common insomnia can be almost as daunting. Even the most advanced medications dont work for everyone. Nor do alternatives ranging herbal tinctures to melatonin capsules, behavioral therapies for sleep apnea. Cpap is a far from perfect solution. Many find it so unpleasant they quit after a few nights. Its alternatives have drawbacks too, and there still arent nearly enough doctors to go around. In this country. The ratio is one for every 43,000 people. Perhaps the greatest challenge for sleep science is societys ongoing and ever escalating war on sleep. That assault probably the main reason so many of us get less shut eye than we should. Like other Public Health problems, the sleep crisis hits low income americans, especially in communities of color. But it affects us all every age, gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic group. The war on sleep takes many forms. Some old. Some new. Shift work, for example. Its around since the 1880s. Remains a health sapping misery for millions, in large part because few employ hours have adopted approaches designed sleep researchers that can minimize impacts on circadian rhythms. A more recently front in the war on sleep comes from our digital devices. These fiendishly addictive gadgets make it harder to disconnect from waking and the blue light from their screens through our biological clocks into confusion. And the war on sleep continues in our schools. Despite all the progress towards later start times, over 75 of u. S. High schools still drag kids to their desks. The four 8 30 a. M. The sleep crisis shows no sign of ending. And so nathaniel claytons heirs toil on. Thank you. Questions, questions again. Hi. I was wondering, during the course of your research did you look at all at the research into what does to the brain and or the rest of the body if you take overthecounter pills for like years and on end. Yeah. You know think more research has been done on sleeping pills because the pharmaceutical Companies Make a ton of money it and you know so they they spend lot researching it over the counter not so much. But generally speaking sleeping pills of all do not give you the same kind of sleep that nature gives you. So your proportions of rem sleep and other stages are going to be different. Also, theres a tendency just about all sleeping pills that the you take them, the more the higher dosage you have to take for them to work. And for a lot of people, they stopped working, but they have other side effects. And and also, you know what what experts say is that sleeping pills taken in the short term, you know, if you need them to get through a period of high stress, whatever, are okay. If you check with your doctor first. But over the term, theyre really not meant to go for the long term. And so people you know i know this for prescription pills can have all kinds of side. They can muddle your brain they can make you groggy during the day. That can lead to weird activities. You know, youve heard of sleep driving and sleep eating and sleep sex, all that stuff from ambien. So the the short answer to this is if you need sleep help with sleep over a long help with insomnia over a long period. A whole bunch of studies have shown the most effective way to do that is through a technique called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for insomnia. And that is a technique that took shape over about 20 years and was finally sort of solidified in the nineties that combines all sorts of therapies to get you out of bad habits and cultivate better habits of not only how you physically, but also thought processes as youre going to sleep. And this has been shown work equally well, better than sleeping pills over. The long term for the majority of people. So, you know, if thats anybody out there, whos trying to decide how to deal with a long term insomnia problem, thats what all the experts say works best this point. Yeah. I dont know if this would be your area of expertise. I have not read your book yet. Thank you for the opportunity to read book, but it seems to me over the course of what, 90 or 100 years that theres been sleep research, that the science of studying the brain has probably evolved quite a bit. Yes. And so my question is, is that science, the measurement, sleep, etc. , and the various aspects of it is that still evolving . Is that still improving . Yes. Yeah, great question. Yeah. I mean, when nathaniel kleinman started out, the eeg hadnt been invented yet. You couldnt measure brainwaves. It took many more years to. Get imaging techniques where you could watch, where what brain cells were doing or measure what particular areas of the brain were doing. None of that existed so much. What was happening through the first decades of of modern sleep science was slowly observing sort of whatever natural could be observed without those tools and making a lot of guesses. And the was a big breakthrough later, pet scans and things like that. Breakthroughs. But it took so long to get those things going and its slow work that yes the science is very much evolving still. And you know i report on this as a journalist and i did a story recently for the ucla medical center, and i talked to two different specialists about rem sleep and what its what its for. And one of these specialists is, you shes just delves into it really deeply, and shes like, well, one part of rem sleep is, you know, consolidates your memories and another potentially long term between, you know, short connections between your short term memory areas and, your long term memory. And another prunes unnecessary, neurons that come from stuff youve taken in during the day that you dont really need to remember. And and so rem sleep is key. For example, to dealing with ptsd because if its working right, it trims traumatic. The neurons that replaying the traumatic memories. But if those traumatic memories are overcoming that process, then rem isnt doing it. And shes like, you know, tell me all this amazing stuff. I talked to one of her colleagues who said rem is nothing nothing. You know, its like, well, well, he figured out that the reason we have rem sleep is because during around your. Your brain warms up physically warms up. It warms your brain temperature. And he figured that during evolution and early mammalian it was important that when animals were sleeping theyd be able to wake up quickly if necessary in case there was a predator emergency. And rem sleep sort of. Once you get down to where your brain is at its coldest during slow wave sleep, rem warms it up and like when you i wisconsin its cold. I know. You know if you have a heater in your garage or an engine heater its like the engine heater for your brain. So its all this other stuff thats not really theres no proof of it. So thats the state of the science. Long way to go. Yeah. Why do we yawn . Why do we all. Hmm . I think the answer that just feels so good. Yeah. Yeah. Are there areas of research which been identified by sleep specialists as the next most important things to tackle. Thats a really interesting question. I think one of the things that thats generating the most excitement these days has to do with neurodegenerative diseases, things like alzheimers, also parkinsons. Those people very excited because in 2012 or 2013, a researcher named maiken nedergaard, whos danish, discovered that during sleep, your brain literally flushes out things like amyloid beta and tao that causes alzheimers. That are thought to cause alzheimers and a whole bunch of other waste products. And it seems like when during slow wave, those vibrations that synchronize brainwaves are large areas of cells and not your neurons that do the thinking. But but then the glia, these these cells that are sort of the helper cells that sort of get to work and, they start flushing out your toxins through cerebrospinal fluid. And so this is generating a huge amount of excitement because like, what is there way to to improve that process while people are sleeping . Maybe through transcript new electric stimulation or Something Like that. So thats the thing thats got people buzzed. Another has to do with diseases related parkinsons, which are caused by buildup of a different protein, and theyre called alpha. Some. And thats thought that that begins in your gut and eventually migrates up to your brain and that certain sleep disorders, particularly the Rapid Eye Movement behavior disorder, thats the one where you lash out in your sleep and you might kill your bed partner. Are very heavily associated parkinsons and other diseases that involve what they call lewy bodies like lewy body dementia. Theyre all synuclein pathways, i think theyre called. And you can detect that early through peoples sleeping patterns. Maybe we can come up with a neuroprotective drug that you can administer before any symptoms. And it will prevent people from ever getting symptoms of things like parkinsons. So those are two things people are very excited about. Thank you. I heard a lecturer. Explain that it was a uw lecture and he said a lot of the students that were his classes, whatever tendency to study all day, go out and catch the late night happy hours and he theorized that you dont process your learning during the day. If you were Drinking Alcohol before, went to bed, i was afraid if you ran across that and if you could talk a little bit about the effect of the alcoholic nightcap when your sleep. Sure. So i cant say that ive come across exactly that problem, but that i can put two plus two together. So people for centuries, maybe thousands of years the main sleep medication for and loads of people has been alcohol. You know how the beer before you go to sleep it helps you sleep better. And one of the things that nathaniel clayman was the one to discover was that when you drink before bed, you do one of the things Nathaniel Kleitman was going to discover was that when you drink alcohol before bed you to fall asleep faster, but kleitman was measuring peoples temperature fluctuations over a 24 hour period. That was one of his big set of sessions and thats why he to see the changes fluctuations. When you go to sleep on alcohol a few hours later, your brain starts to warm up. And actually i think your body temperature starts to warm up. Anyway, it throwsma off you thermostatically in it disturbs your sleep and not get as good asleep. So the relevance of that to learning is that a lot of what we learned in the day is consolidated during sleep, and loads of studies have been done that show that a good night sleep socially essential to remembering what you learned the previous day. So 2 2 is Drinking Alcohol is probably the best thing for remembering what you learned. Of a different thread here, youre a Science Writer and youve written both science and medicine. How do a you kind of balance and then use craft to address an audience thats largely nonresearcher conducting regularly very complex topic . Its really hard. And, you know, thing is i came to this, im not a scientist and, in fact, i have very little science background. I was never good at science in school. And i started out as a generalist journalist my first fulltime writing job was for life magazine writing about everything, you know, Human Interest stories, climate change, conjoined twins, orators. I i mean, just whatever. And over the course of doing that for several decades i start to realize i been doing a lot of sites stories. And what i have, what i try to do is think okay, im not a naturally science oriented person, but i have some a figured out how to read a Clinical Study or things like that and how to look for help where i needed and how to ask scientists questions come like it was explained this to my grandmother, you know, what would you, god rest her soul but, back when im sure starting out. You know, and so its all that stuff. Its really thinking about okay, this stuff, even though i, i can now read things, they often put me literally to sleep, you know . How do i avoid doing that for readers . And so you have to think like why does this matter . Just imagine somebody out there, why should they care . And that means you try to paint it in Broad Strokes without oversimplifying. You start with the Broad Strokes and that maybe introduce the subtleties later to the degree that they will fit, tie it to emotional anecdotes, tie it to real people and what the impact this is, of this is on their lives and thats what i just try to do with all my stories. Yeah. U was there anything that you can really interesting or just, but like notin pertinent and did make it in the book . All, a whole lot. Yeah. One of the funny things up being a writer and anybody whos been doing this for for a long ts that good writing is really good editing. And it is so hard to read your own stuff critically. I probably do it better than most but the disney i do it well. And when i turned in the first draft of this book was like just a total mess, and it wasnt even finished my first editor said, you got to go back to the drawing board on this, gave me a whole lot of ideas. The second draft ive gotten, yes, yes ive got it now, ive got it. And maybe to all the things ive learned. Ive been working on this book for seven years. So, so much i know. You have to know it, too. You know, by the time i first editor at with the publishing side. Another editor, and that editor said look, ken, this is all great i can take a lot of hard work. You got to lose 20,000 words. And ied was panicked and furiou. And fortunately my editor had and thats Editorial Assistant who was a brilliant young woman who had not only like an mfa in creative writing, but had studied neurobiology, studied neuroscience. Into his able to what matter and she went through and said dont sweat it, im going to suggestions what 20,000 words i think you could get rid of. And she did a a fantastic jobd then i just had to go back and make, you know, figure out how to doan the transitions and put back in in a couple paragrapu because its really not, and thats how it worked. And i was very happy with the New York Times book review of this book propulsive, because the awful pop tale is a reason the book is propulsive. I just i just wanted to ask y. Related. Yes i have yes. So that to repeat the question, have i done anything on age related sleep problems . The answer is yes. The answer is yes. You can find o some of that in e book. You can find o some of that in e to study how sleep changes with aging. I read a story with aarp magazine. A its aimed at 60 somethings like its aimed at 60 somethings like as you age your sleep changes. Its more fragmented, generally. Thits unclear if its neurological or has to do with the fact people tend to have sleep apnea. Maybe not full blown but they have apneas. They might have to get up to pee. Whats neurological is when you get up and go to bed is earlier. The main tips are getting exercise everyday. It doesnt help today i exercised and now i sleep better today. Its longterm exercising. Getting sunlight early in the morning. There is a clock in your head thats in your brain. Its an actual biological clock that coordinates the clocks in your cells. The way it knows what time it is by light. If you get a good strong dosage of i sunlight in the morning for 20 minutes that will help you settle down better at night. The clock is getting reset. Napping, thats cool. M its best to keep them short and keep them, probably not, you know, before 4 00 p. M. Basically. Like a 20 minute nap before the Late Afternoon can help you be t more alert, can help you feel better. If you sleep longer or later or longer and later it can interfere with your nighttime sleep. Youur get rid of the sleep pressure thatth is normally buildup. Those are some tips. Yeah, the question was couldo i talk about the connection between sleep and Mental Health, yes. So, interestingly, there is a bidirectional relationship between sleep and Mental Health. For example, the people who get bad sleep for a long period have a much greater tendency towards depression. Insufficient sleep could trigger people who have bipolar disorders it can disrupt your sleep. There is an area of sleep science devoted to help folks with the difficulties get better sleep. One thing thats urgent about helping everyoneus get better sleep it could reduce the Mental Health crisis in the country. Like mary worked with School Start Times. G whats the big problem among teens . Its depression. Huge amounts of depression and suicidalty. None of them get enough sleep. School start times and its smart phones and maybe who knows, anxiety about global warming. There was a lot going on. Docertainly, things we could doo mitigate that and make it bette. [inaudible]. Im sorry, you were saying talking about temperature in the room being important for sleep. You keep yours at 64 you say . You are tough. Yes, that has enfact been scientifically shown its much easier to sleep and cooler temperatures. Exactly what temperature . It depends on the individual. Generally speaking, coolness is conducive to sleep. Well take one more. [inaudible] good question about Daylight Saving time. L all of the sleep experts i follow on twitter are against Daylight Savings time. They m hate it. I myself, until i started researching sleep loved it. Hey,re the sun goes down later d more hours in the day. In fact, making that adjustment every year costs tens of thousandspe of lives. Theirre rhythms are thrown off d they have car crashes and stuff. It takes a long time to adjust. You are not as alert and not as stable as you would be. Daylightht savings time contradicts getting Early Morning sunlight. Instead, for most of the year u you get up and light when your body is starting to slowdown and move towards sleep. Instead u its like sunlight, sunlight. Sunlight stayt away. They can contribute to insomnia. There is atoit bill to make it permanent. People are up in arms about it. It could cause Public Health problems. [ applause ]bl