Transcripts For CSPAN2 Lance Price On The Modi Effect 20150510

Year ago. Our discussion today will revolve around new book that has generated a fair amount of buzz in india already. The modi effect inside Narendra Modis campaign to transform india. The book is significant the book is insignificant part based on interviews with author lance price had with modi in his Campaign Advisers in the weeks of the election. Lance price was given exclusive access to speak with them. We are very fortunate to have lance price with us today who will talk about the boat in detail. Hes a writer and political commentator on reports and regularly on the cbs show up to the minute. Also a journalist on bbc and also has served as media adviser to former british Prime Minister, tony blair. The format will essentially be a followup. I will post a series of questions and well have a conversation for about 20 or 25 minutes or so. We will give an opportunity for the commentator to offer some brief reactions for any of you who dont know him hes a correspondent for the hindu. Guess an academic background and has written a book on poverty in india. Before we get started, just wanted to note that for those who would like to live to eat the event, we encourage that. Those of you watching it live web stream, just please use hash tag modi. So with that, lets go ahead and get started. Lance i will start with a question that is more about you than about modi. As i said before you were given in exclusive access interview and you have the freedom to write about the story and not granted all that many extended interviews about the campaign. The question is why do you think modi granted you a foreign journalist that has no major prior connection exclusive access and the privilege to have the story. Thank you michael. Thank you for the introduction. I was a question i was asked in delhi recently and one of the first questions that all the indian journalist asked me was why you and not us because he hasnt made himself available to indian journalist. As i detailed the book he didnt make himself available very much during the campaign it there which is sent to repack about later on the way in which we related to its own. I dont have a definitive answer to that question. They were too big for thinking. One was that they wanted somebody from outside india to do it look because they felt clearly it had been a huge event in indian politics in india generally. It hasnt been widely recognized outside the country. I followed it through the media but i was very conscious that somebody in britain when you have your elections here in the state, every single little tiny happenstance during the election gets covered in british media. Which is sort of go gaga over it. Its ridiculous. Heres an election and the largest democracy of the world. Former british colony somewhere where we have strong links with lots and lots of indian people in britain and it got a little bit of coverage here and there. Not very much. They felt that they would like their Elections Campaign to be recognized outside of india more widely and he compared some of the triumphs and campaigns we do talk about more regularly in the blast. The other reason was i cannot help but they relatively fresh pair of eyes. Most people in india and narayan does better than me. They are either in favor or very much against him. Hes that kind of politician. I think they wanted somebody to come made could be a bit more unbiased about it. I came from a different political. Ive been on the centerleft of politics. Hes happy to be described as a rightwing politician, antinationalists and some people described in an even less faster terms i still know. Perhaps the last little ingredient that helped me secure interviews was a bad one of the books ive read the diaries i publish about working for blair, which was about being on the inside of government at the highest level. So i guess those three factors came together to get me the opportunity. So tell us a bit about your impressions of modi starting with your first initial impressions in the very first few pages of the book. Talk a little bit about where you stop right off the bat and also not just the initial impressions, but the impressions that formed more and more. Additionally, the interviews you had with modi were about the campaign, about the election but also covered other things as well. Take a few minutes to tell us about the themes he likes to talk about the mess, what he preferred to avoid to talk about. Did he open up at all on the issue of the riot in 2002 and also for the sake of our audience in washington did he offer any thoughts about the United States and about his view of the u. S. India relationship . Well, i dont want to brag, but i spent a few Prime Minister said president s in the course of my career. Up and worked for i had been in the company of some interesting people, including bill clinton here in washington. So im not certain if faced by meeting Prime Ministers. And he is an extraordinary man and a very very asthmatic man. I spent maybe five hours within the terms of interviews since the book came out. Throughout all of the time i was meeting modi the politician. I was meeting set for the front man who was presenting himself talking about achievements in campaign and with varying frankness and i will come to some of the specifics you asked about. I dont think at the end of all of that time i can tell you much about modi than men. Im not sure how many people ever get to meet modi the man. Hes a politician like no other ive ever encountered. He works from five in the morning he told me. He wakes up about 5 00 in the morning. But then for five minutes is connected to the internet and reading the latest news. He goes to bed usually midnight. He never takes a day off never has a vacation. Doesnt have a wife and family come at us and watch telly, doesnt watch sports games. He just works. And i expressed some surprise that that because they like their vacations. They need to relax and all the rest of it to deal with the pressures and so on. One indian friend said to me just remember a lot of people have to work from the second i wake up until the moment they go to bed at night. Its not that unusual. But one area of his personal life is that he sets aside time for spiritual activities every day, for meditation and for yoga, which is clearly very important to him. Sometimes at moments of quite high attention when the Election Results are coming in. The media in india for reporting he was at home watching the results come in on television and he told me that wasnt true at all. Theyve been told they want to disturb them at all. He was just interest back in. He was meditating. He was doing whatever he does as part of a spiritual activities. That he was willing to talk about or two of those two. Are reluctant to talk about family personal stuff. There was one Election Campaign, a huge rally when bombs went off six people were killed before he was due to speak and he decided that it should go ahead anyway despite the security people all saying it should be canceled. He said no, i have a duty to do this. Im going to go ahead. I said to him maybe if you have a wife and family, you wouldve thought more about personal security before you set that decision. It was the one time that he paused and didnt have an answer ready for me. He said well how can i answer that question . Did he say they do have mother and as you have others. But hes very comfortable about opening up about anything in that respect. The riots, the terrible attack on the trade and the rights and graduate in 2002 i expected because obviously id read other peoples experiences of interviewing and so on was one area he closed down very quick way. I cover it in sufficient detail in the book. Most of that is what he said previously about it all appeared to me he just said i said enough about that. You can go and read the report put together by the Investigation Team to the Supreme Court in india and read the conclusions. It is pretty clear i wasnt going to get any further with that. In a sense, that was fair enough because i didnt see it as my job to reinvestigate. That was my role. I was there to write a book about the campaign. I had to explain in detail for people outside india who were familiar with what happened in 2002 with the story was but also had some impact on the campaign in him as a candidate and whether or not he was the obvious candidate why he was a controversial candidate. So that was one area he closed down on. On america he was remarkably sort of forgiving if that is the right word. You did keep them out of your country for the first part of a decade. I think diplomatically its fair to say the United States was fairly slow to readmit into the fold compared to my country britain or the European Union or other countries around the world. Peaches that i put that out of my mind it didnt allow it to affect me and my ego. It was clear that he wanted to have the relationships and he wanted to move ahead. I spoke to him after he had been here in this huge reception in Madison Square garden central park and speaking here in washington as well so on and so forth. It at least that meant a lot to him. He needs he is not about what you think of him as a politician i guess. He recognizes he needs a partnership with the United States and he will achieve economic goals in this country. Interesting. Lets move on to the campaign of south, which is the core focus of the book. There was a point in the book where you said was made modi Prime Minister was his ability to marshal a campaign that could reach more at the indian people than ever before at election time. Why dont you unpack that comment. For me it chews things that struck me reading through your analysis of the campaign was on the one hand the structure of the campaign that you describe it command control and more of an ecosystem. That is the specific word you use. The thing that struck me was the heavy emphasis on technology. For instance, the use of these modi holograms that essentially made it look like he was present in places where he was not. When i think about holograms that tend to think about objects in the period at the Billboard Music awards as a hologram and not indian politicians. So if you could talk about this notion of how he was able to reach more indian people than ever before an election, and terms of how the campaign was structure and the tools that were used that allowed him to reach so many people. One of the interesting things about campaigns i think is that it was both very oldfashioned and very modern. The oldfashioned that was the rallies. I think in america and certainly britain, people are reluctant to go to Public Meetings anymore. They really get engaged a Public Meeting for that kind of style, the politics that it is today. The revised that. That started happening in india as well. People are less interested in Public Engagement whereas modi just took his roadshow out and they flocked to him in the hundreds of thousand tcf. With there without the hologram. So that was interesting actually. Some of the oldfashioned side of politics has been revitalized in another aspect of the campaign we take for granted, which i had never occurred to me was heavily deployed in indiana was going out of knocking on peoples doors. We think doorstep political work is the key to success. And so it is. Whereas even in parts of urban india, is saying what you vote for us and then go into making sure that they have wasnt something that wouldve been particularly familiar in this kind oldfashioned to us which weve come to rather late. They make that very effective. The other side was a very, very modern campaign. So he looked at obamas campaign in britain and australia and elsewhere and he actually said we could do better than that. And i say that because he allowed social media to do what it does best, which is have a conversation. He didnt try to control it. Weve got a British Election just under way back home which im going to go back and start commenting and covering. Every day on my phone i got messages. I guess tweet and i pressed the delete button as soon as they appeared because i know full well they are an extension of the usual propaganda that ive are divided with just the boring. This was boring. In this lively. It was interesting. He managed to clear out stories that kept the debate going and the ecosystem, the bit of the ecosystem looking after social media was being done by people who have no real involvement but would be clear to come in for the whole thing. A lot of it confused by modi and been given the opportunity to show what they could do. It is interesting that roel gandhi was in his 20s or Something Like that was also the same sort of thing and i cannot say ouch for the receiver to him first. Hes a young guy who responds to this. And modi said no. It isnt like that. And modi took a completely different view. A lot of kids now have that smartphones and even if not everybody could get access to what was being said on social media if younger people would appear in social media, they see their families and would tell everybody else. They also use social media quite brilliantly to more or less forced the traditional india to dance to his tune. As they stand out there for tony blair, Communications Director for the labour party to put it more formally. We all know what that job involves. He was a good candidate to get the media to tell the story your way. Modi was remarkably successful. Partly by rationing his availability. He didnt do sit down tv interviews until very late in the campaign. Didnt give them to the englishspeaking media and some most people were voting. He basically said to them, i will set the agenda. You are not. You can write about what i said, what i tweet but if you want to talk to me, you have to wait until im ready for you and that was surprisingly effective. It was just good oldfashioned doorstep campaign and just quickly on the hologram, of course there is an enormous country that would be impossible for anyone to get around all day. But there were parts of the country described as dark villages where most people dont have television. They dont have access to the media in the same sense of urban areas would do. Not across the entire country. That wouldve been impossible. In significant areas, and the big stage he would find out fully subtracts without the satellite equipment, generators and everything necessary to be himself alive into the market wire. She went home to his headquarters and out to a hundred different places simultaneously with the admin here had and he would see questions as well. They then set up a little fair. Fourstar, just having this guy was like something out of star trek. Imagine what an electrifying impact that would have been many places. But they sat in front of huge fans of his hair would move a little bit. They thought people would think it was the real him. That he had hair to blow a gas. Lets fastforward to the postelection environment. The book covers the Election Campaign and also the aftermath of the bjp modis party continued to ride on a collection for a number of months after the election and won a series of key state elections. However, in february this year the bjp lost this election in new delhi which in its short existence has campaigned on basic issues, things like clean water, cheap electricity, less corruption as well. And you covered this in your book, which is impressive. This happened in february. Your book was published a few weeks ago. You covered the setbacks for the bjp. The question is what do you think is the sat back in this new delhi state election tells us about the bjp and its strategy. Does this suggest despite other fancy hocuspocus in the Technology Described despite all of that at the end of the day it is the issues and particularly breadandbutter issues that will ultimately carry the day in an Election Campaign. Do you think that could be the case or should we see this as a case of the bjp getting complacent or is there Something Else . At the former and the latter. There was a touch of complacency in the bjp and the mastermind behind a lot of the strategy work thought that modi modi come to modi would be enough. If you remember they won every single seat and less than a year later they won three out of 70 seats in the state assembly and the other 67 with an astonishing setback. To be fair, the bjp voted and the congress did collapse and pretty much went to the aap party, which helped. Principally as we know america entries, National Election of local elections are Different Things and you have to have a local election very much on local issues. My understanding of what i saw that they were able they had a good manifesto that was very focused on specific issues. They had a good ground campaign. They threw everything at it from the moment the general elections over for focusing. The nearest parallel is probably obama losing seats. You think you got it wrapped up in you suddenly discover that you have in. Final question i will post to you is that there has been several other books written on the 2014 Election Campaign in indiana, including several of the exclusive interviews with modi. One of them as you know made quite a splash called 2014 the election that changed india, similarly titled to your book written by a prominent indian journalist who you interview at your book. What would you say distinguishes your book from his book other than the fact the authors are different. One is indian, one is not. Do they complement each other . I hope they complement each other. My publisher is likely to say its because i the exclusive access. He is one of the leading makers in india. His was a very personal look at the campaign itself. He was covering it. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and i quote from it in mind and im happy to pay tribute to what i think is an excellent book. His book was on the campaign so he tried to give equal balance to the campaign and someone into the other elements of the campaign, which i didnt try to do. Mine was unashamedly exclusively about the modi campaign. Some of the other individuals try and see how it impacted on how it responded and was very successful at turning attacks and advances around and turning them back at his opponents. But its a very good book indeed. Banks. Some interesting discussion with the audience. A first word to narayan to offer some response. Firstly, thanks for organizing this and congratulations again. This is an excellent book. I must admit i read it at great speed over the latter part of last week and finishing this weekend not only because i had a cascading deadline but also because it was a completely gripping book and the reason is i think lance has brought to play literally the modi date which is a 360degree view of the campaign. Of course he has the unprecedented act as to modi himself, but he goes well beyond that to speak not only to other bjp party functionaries, but also senior media people do i think people on the ground like voters, just to get a sense of how the campaign what about site from every angle you could parse it for him. So when that sense, it is definitely a unique book and also i would definitely give lance a lot of credit for maintaining a steady and deliberate sense of neutrality of the day since he mentioned the beginning it is a subject that gets people pretty quickly polarized on one way or the other. While he certainly does talk about modi mobilization efforts, the campaign in terms of the hologram, even the specific symbol of his power in the way he carried these. Yet the same time does say that the attempts to sound less than convincing and had a broader policy, macrolevel he doesnt shy away from talking about things like the riots had taken a nuanced view of how he has performed in office since he became Prime Minister. And that is the other thing that is really cool about lances book which it is extremely updated. He has stuff in there about february and here we are at the end of march. I think it is definitely valuable to indians in india specialists who have been studying this for the unique insider view but its also extremely accessible to give you the broader context. Quite a lot of talks about his history but it doesnt get into the absolute god of what modi did although we know that is part of the story. He does talk about the evolution of modi and how he traveled across the country quite a lot. He gained his experience dealing with different parties including the iss in his evolving relationship with parties over time. So in all of these regards i havent read the book, but i think this is a very unique book, which is probably going to sell very well in india and im sure elsewhere, too. I want to make a few points as i just mentioned some of the important points. I followed that up with just a couple of points about the kind of questions that arose in my mind which winds could answer or it could be a subject for future research. So the same subject he really tackles quite well throughout the book i felt was a question that a lot of people grapple with and that is why is modis campaign more about developmental ascendant Economic Growth or was there an underlying overtures towards a more hardline philosophy, which links to associations and party sees what within his own history of taiwan. Again, there are no simplifications made in the book. Its very nuanced. Zero, and as we all know the biggest battleground for india for anyone wanting to blame an indian election modi himself pretty much never made any sort of direct overtures but at the same time you did have people who read the contacts, and the later contacts with questions about them and at the same time it also raises questions about what kind of strategy of modi in a practical sense. One thing he stepped into areas that denomination of candidates within the bjp. It actually resembled a very traditional items that ive seen in my home state where cost continues to matter. You can have the super charismatic leader who is really the whole country bringing about a new paradigm. But at the same time when you go down to the village level, traditional loyalties to predominate in india in the rural parts. Resource allocation happens through such channels and there is a lot in this book about how modi waited until the very last minute. He waited until the very last minute to announce the nomination of the candidate and in many cases the vp did fit into this paradigm of cost mappings to maximize impact. So the question above is the campaign about an explicit level in an implicit level is nicely covered throughout the book. The second thing which struck me obviously from my own perspective is the relationship with the media. In many senses that is also rolled into the discomfort that modi and not programmed and theres a colorful section on where he talks about the interview and what he actually walked out of the interview midway. Once again, get him to apologize for what happened. Again this is who i had to finish the book. It will hold you. And then a lot of credit and bringing a lot of the color into modi. He was a very serious politician leaving his yoga had to follow after his own access in the morning. He is quite a folksy guy in the way george w. Bush wants to sit down except he doesnt drink. There is this big which lance talks about my apologies they should any sense. Its sort of an appeal of to the local level about how the childhood was in the seventh idealized. Similarly, theres a lot in there about modi and Public Relations firms in future Election Campaigners can learn a lot. Many of us did follow the Campaign Close to but the amount of detail is just startling. Everything about how towards the end of the campaign, close to the election the bjp was systematically planning their Media Presence every day and in this case because he didnt directly interact with the media they would also courtney with the tweets that facebook and create the news and further have a review of how the media was handling those news items. In this sense they were baby in the u. S. Harder to do but in the book you get a sense that the elements of completely controlling the narrative and again as i said lance has a lot of details about how they actually planned the entire process. There is a lot of work to for people in that space. So let me quickly move on to sort of the questions that i had and all the time is up in questions to respond to or discuss. The first is basically it probably comes down to the limitations of the time and scope of the book. But i guess i was wondering if there was a wider sphere of journalists, experts other politicians or other parties that could be consulted not least in the congress. I found firstly again completely understand the subject of the book is the modi effect inside Narendra Modis campaign to transform india, not the gandhi effect. The references to the Congress Seems universally negative in the sense that they were as you mentioned, is seen as the trigger that led to modi undertaking a certain action, which is part of the narrative here. Particularly i was wondering about how this relates to the big, big question of why modi one. Because congress as we know was in power for a whole decade. During that time they take an active very large number that the rural employment guarantee scheme the education scheme, the universal i. D. Scheme, the National Rural health mission. Bought a kind of salad there a record choice and in terms of the whole policy paralysis, lack of decisionmaking and they were completely engulfed and so forth. There is to me a sort of missing element, even given the hyper approach, hyperactive approach or proactive approach to tackling and moving the borders, something is still missing. The answer could still be in the book because another thing is the fact that a massive amount of Corporate Finance happened during this election and massey says that the local level, the Election Commission requires everything thats bad to be accounted for on a note of cory pencil. But at the federal level, that is not the case. So it is going to Citizens United way in america. So put that really also have played a much bigger role than we suspect . Similarly that goes back to him the entire idea. Not so much in terms of the rss maybe which leads to the civil instability, but more in terms of reasserting indias potency. My own colleagues, my peers in india at the time, everyone was bemoaning how india had followed where it should be in a sense, even on the world stage. We were not breaching any new frontiers are making progress at the u. N. Security council. There were not admitted to all these nuclear clubs. So i think what the bigger area so. So i was up with an open question on that. The other thing that struck me throughout the narrative was the need for a nuance on how modi seems to appropriate a number of things. In some sense it is essential. For example, one example taught about his mongolian on. The speech he made in Madison Square garden about how a cause much much more to get somewhere by taxi. So when i send modi appropriated that just as a lot of the existing macroeconomic scenarios have been appropriated appeared in a sense, that is inevitable. He inherited that that the crushing burden of the lack of investment of the reforms that he made a lot of progress over the last year. But i guess a sense of saying this much before wouldve clarified. So these are questions that came up to me in the discussion. Thank you. Do you want to take a few minutes to respond . It is great to get the discussion i think reasserting modis potency which cut through the ideological aspects of the parties and all the rest of the year younger people in particular. I spoke to a number of younger indians is that i feel proud of india again and that is after seeing him here in the state received obama for the republic day speech and so on. They replicate speeches of predecessors and frank says against them. It was my party, the labour party for 2012 the new Prime Minister who came in and stood there on the podium and embraced it in his games. Lets start with the questions. It may seem strange, but please wait for a microphone so those listening on the web stream and via cspan will hear your question. If you give your name and affiliation, we will start right here with bob. Pathway, visiting scholar at the wilson center. Glance this is a little unfair because you never said he got a good read of modi the man. I would like both of you to see if we can tease out a little bit more. I was struck by your description of his extraordinary selfdiscipline. Do you have any sense of what made him so disappointed what is the source of his drive . Would keep circling . Its a phenomenal drive selfconfidence, self belief, discipline, hard work, all kinds of factors that some of us think we might have a little bit of but those who get to the top on it the top in her case have in spades into think that is something which probably if youre going to be successful in politics you need to have that as part of their dna partner make a. The last chapter in the book is called the indomitable will which is a quote from mahatma ghandi. He says success lies in an indomitable will. I think modi had that builtin the will to succeed or add to succeed or out of the giver considers failure an option from the moment he wakes up in the morning until we go to bed at night. And but part of it was also him. He is a poor boy made good. There are a lot of to do growth in india a lot more poor than modi. He was barefoot as a kid and he made himself good. They did that to the support principally at the rs and the phenomenal way in which that organization fosters support and helps people who show promise and dedication within their ranks. Which is something for outsiders so hard to tough but once you to understand it didnt its come you can see how to really does form committed that like going into the joint cadet corps, whatever you call it here. Because a character Building Impact on individuals. Much more so than anything ive ever seen in any western countries. He spoke very different about narayan says during the campaign but theres nothing suggests is no longer a hindu nationalist. I think he has in a sense, hes got the support of the people, defining characteristic of a politician they want to support. Hes moved on from that which is why hes given the emphasis that he is on the taliban and the economy and all the rest of the which had to do in order to reach a much wider constituency and, therefore, win the election. Yet he is a reformer. I think he wants to change india in big big ways. Entity sets a very high ambitions for himself and for the country which will be very, very hard for him to realize in five years as Prime Minister. Is raised expectations that were that carries back politicians often do. Tony blair did obama has done and modi would probably face the same problems in terms not being able to reach the expectations his rates. Something is born with and something he learned. I would tend to agree i think what really stood out for me, both in the book and want for my own interaction from i had one interaction with modi that actually was we knew was in new york. It was a secret meeting with journalists didnt get laid so im allowed to talk about it today, but there was actually come and also as part of the deal of how he has very difficult relationship with the media. So there was a discussion organized with a few usbased internet journalists, and that was, did go down very well with a large contingent of indiabased india journalist who traveled with him, and some were asking why. But it was and also very interesting event where, you know, while i think at the start of it we were all very sort of gung ho to private apartment of we could come from wouldve we could in terms of policy issues and other things questions we had in mind he completely turn tables on us within like a minute and it was a completely a discussion about personal accounts of a yoga and how he traveled in the u. S. When it came to before and things like that. Of course, the whole thing that leapt because its not supposed to be reported, and then we all got into trouble at the indian embassy. But again its all out of this on not breaking any rules here. I think he is a very quick learner. Is what ive tried to see. Eat it falls. I think that is one of the core sort of characteristics that he is a better think has made them really whether to so many storms. He has been going on to win the minds of some of the different segments of india, and just sitting in washington as an indian myself, it boggles the mind to think of how many different ideas that are. He is everything for adopts technology to the kind of the promises hes made with achieve but were not in terms of development, but the indymac is a potent put on the world stage in terms of business and the willingness to tackle some of the hard economic hard macroeconomic issues. Beverly comes across, and i think its a combination of his evolutionary capability and strong intuition in terms of what is the need at the moment from what is the most pressing need. He is a very, very attentive to that. So thats why that explains his success i think. Thank you, michael. I think your book will be a very useful addition. [inaudible] im working here in washington, d. C. And maryland as a visiting professor on international trade, relevant and Security Issues at the university of maryland. And also on climate change. Now, its been very interesting to listen to you and to get an idea, i have not had a chance to read the book to get an idea of content. I think International Debacle country will because getting it from a present modern india does have access to some of the inner workings, and are dynamics of the whole process i can will be extremely useful. Going to become a major driver of the Global Economy very soon so understand the person behind the machine is going to be very, very important. Now, just going down to the exact issues, what do you think should be the next step, if you reflect a little bit upon it . As you both mentioned that ive been very high hopes, very High Expectations and there have been disappointments. Already people are talking about, you know how very little has been achieved even though as you said a lot has been achieved achieved. But if the message is like not going across in a way that one wouldve expected it to go across, and there seems to be some sort of disconnect. There was a very great connector earlier with the entire people said to be holograms in the media and the social media. So how do you think, do you think he will move from a disconnect to the connect . One of those asked in the world because the countrys population will into one. So for any Prime Minister its a nightmare. But i know he brings to the job and a commitment. Which could reflect a little bit and let us know where d. C. With your insight as a journalist also of where more down the line you for the next elections are due, and how modi would be at that point of time . We think of five years as being a relatively long time in a little terms and in policy terms is really not. I guess hes aware of that. I think he must be. When i worked for tony blair in his first term in the uk and he had a massive majority as you know, he was very conscience by the end of that waste time and that they got started on things assess us he would like to do not have enough progress to show at the end of that period. And i guess the sense that modi has tried to get the Administration Working the way he wants it to or closer to the way he wants it to first because if you havent gotten the machine working the way it you wanted to work its not going to deliver your policies. So his interactive are different with the bureaucracy. Is given to access to him directly. He stole them that he is watching him pretty much every step of the way. I think thats important. Is made a start on his basic, if you think of the high Profile Campaign commitments, hes got something to point to in virtually all of those areas. The worry is that hes good at creating the headlines and yet to prove that he can actually deliver on the ground changes in peoples lives that will show the those headlines meant something. Now, if you dont have to look at the crystal ball. You can kind of repo book if you look at the way he worked, it was a lot was done in a relatively short period of time that was genuine impact on the ground. The whole of india, its not. Its a much more complex country than that exactly be able to do so with india what he did in the same period of time. But just wielded government declaring cleaning india started or announcing that 95 of the population now has a bank account when actually for so many millions of people thats been enough. Money doesnt become excessive realistically. Its all very well having his headline grabbing initiative. I think it is inconceivable that he would deliver on all these promises in five years. He must know that. What he has to issue sufficient progress but not just progress in terms of good headlines at in terms of real impacts on peoples lives and their health care and access to sanitation and all the rest of it advance of thats a hell of a big ask. We touched on Corporate India previously in the discussion. He did get a lot of support at a think hes going back to the now and say im going to make life easier for you. Im going to make this country your country open to business again, investment and also enabling domestic Indian Companies to function more effectively, but in return i want to see out there, i want to see put toilets into school to i want to see abu alis other ambitions. Com for the country. That would be the difference in my view doing success and failure after five years. I mean quite like what i said, i think there is a couple ways to slice this. The first is a rapid rate of Economic Growth will automatically, you know, it will temporarily silenced many of the critics as in fact it happened in the Congress Government parts of the carcass covers rule when we had the boom period at the imf came out with an assessment i believe last week saying by 201617 india growth will surpass china for the first time. And at the same time modi or rather other bgp states have gone about, have gone about policies reforms, oligomer coach against dickey and difficult to achieve in the past but they have actually tackled some of the disputes act and someone come and that is seen as sort of a precursor which modi is tried to build on at the national level. He has got bogged down with a number of issues such as the Land Acquisition or things like that. But again that is just one side of the story, and the danger of modi and sort of the looming horizon where people stop giving him that rove is it okay, we give you a year they have still not make progress, that will happen if he doesnt take it beyond the growth and reform agenda to come as alliances that can provide more public welfare, so the aspects but mentioned what happened although so the policies. They think entity but i think modi of having separated about how he kind of steals the thunder can he does need to steal the thunder entirely and sort of adopted those policies and magnify them and reach out to rural indians. That is where the confidence of the whole country is going to come from its not just going to come from the top down approach. Some questions on this side of the room. We would get back to you. Over on this side. We will start with the gentlemen, the light is blinded by the jump in with his hand up right there, yes. Donald camp from csis. You talked about Prime Minister modis mastery of social media thats continued in the conference period, for instance, the invitation to president obama, republican made by twitter. In light of that my question is does he have his own spin doctor and bury able to interview that person . And more broadly, we know that he has a very important powerful kitchen cabinet. What do you see as the role in terms of both in the campaign and in governance . To microsofts but he doesnt have a spin doctor. He doesnt have a director of communications. It is nobody who bears the title as head of media for at a press or anything like that. And in a sense he is his own spin doctor. He understands the media and what works and how to influence it to remarkable degree. Obviously there are people in the bjp good deal on a daytoday basis with the media and also the people in all sorts of Department Since one so its not a complete disconnect. But it doesnt have what we see as a huge figure that would be normally part of a leaders kitchen cabinet. But it does have people very close to the some of them are in government, some are not. Is one of those guys whos on the phone a lot talking to people. Edu windows who he is talking to the he relies very much on verbal report backs from people. He did during the campaign. So at the end of a long day our was waiting for a flight or something to be on the phone talk to people, how is it going in this part of the country . Whats happening here, whats happening there . He does have a phenomenal memory and absorbs about information. If he is picking up local intelligence ahead of the speech is very good at assembling that in turn it into something you can use in his speech on the stump as he goes around or was on a camping. I get a since his continued to be the. He likes episode source of intelligence. He does rely on the Civil Servants to provide them with all the facts of things have been delivered because you know how good Civil Servants are. He likes to find whether its actually happened as well as what i was describing before, trying to keep the Civil Service undertones a little more. Cant have four hours on the golf course at lunchtime which certainly has been the case. But hes got some trustees around them, then he brought in with him from before. That carries with it benefits, creates jealousy on the outside. If youre not too careful you start relying on a small group of people around you same criticisms made of obama i guess. Budget cut to someone you can talk to you frankly. Maybe two or three people he conducted really rhythmically and those are the people who probably do know the real modi. Allison south asia program. I was wondering in your conversations with mr. Modi, did he ever talk about leaders, either domestic or International Comic intemperate or historical, people that he admires . Yes, he did. And internationally not so much. You talk a little bit about the Obama Campaign as a campaign less about individuals. I think he is a smart diplomat not to start passing judgment on other World Leaders when its only been in office a few months. That wouldve been a little or sumptuous stuffing. In terms of indian leaders, he quotes Mahatma Gandhi frequently of course. He spends more time denigrating leaders more than it is hailing figure gets a lot of respect for the grandees in the bjp. Not all of them are as enthusiastic about as a candidate. When it is great heroes is patel was the home minister and deputy Prime Minister after independence for whom he is building were told the largest statue in the world, which is going to be sort of competitive rimmer how high it is . Enormous. Is being built at the moment and he was called the ironman at india and you can seek modi qaeda sir martin so. One of the chapters he is called ironman 2. Although patel was a congressman, he was a nationalist hindu. He was a religious hindu and i think of all the people that he talks, those are the to come Mahatma Gandhi and patel. Tom finberg consultant. Its always a dangerous to ask about the future but he does have an election coming up within the next year or so. In both cases, have a lot of other people learned the lesson and are now dedicated to using social media perhaps more effectively . And the other specific issue he is apparently having trouble with is the reaction to his proposed Land Acquisition. I dont know if you have any insight about how either of those factors may make the elections were typical . I think im going to bow to greater knowledge, left. Is much Better Qualified to answer all of those questions than i am. The one reflection on one of the other parties are learning from the success and from their failures. I do think theyre starting to. Is one of the reasons why he did well in delhi. Whether the Congress Party has learned the lesson jet they are taking quite a lengthy period of introspection before reflecting on what went wrong and who should bear responsibility for the there was a report that came out very quickly that exonerees awful leadership, and thats kind of which would expect the debut of licensed olympic ice in the book if the Congress Party learns the lessons of its mistakes than he can pick itself up and be a force again. And certainly the bjp not be complacent just because it did well and then the two weeks later election doesnt have something they will sweep the board everywhere. I would agree with lance. I think modi has already hes got a first moral advantage already in terms of the social media and data space. However, on the ground i think you know a lot more is influx that he would like to believe or maybe the bjp party the state functionaries would like to believe. I think a lot of it especially in youth he comes down to as i said very specific constituencies and who are they cast leaders, and how do the other parties maneuver around them a . I think the bjp will probably learn from the deli fiasco and i think they will try and maybe take a look at more offline. That is my suspicion because the online campaigning yield a lot of result in urban centers where as in both of these states it is much more about this is of course, certainly the qualification that lance made early on which is there is a spillover effect. The young man who travels to a city picks up the news about modi out of mobile phone goes back to those, talks to his them and they had a bunch of photos. That effect is still there but i think in fact it the bjp doesnt learn from the deli and your experiences they may be in trouble in the next year, the next election cycle. Of course theres a big difference to the upper house because thats where folks in the upper house come from as a result. Yes. I am more hopeful about Economic Program and the actions he has already taken. On, my name is [inaudible] retired diplomat. He has taken many, like decades, decades,. [inaudible] it took a few days. Then i know of administrative bypassing. He is using this, understands what to do. But when necessary his personal secretary comes in. They come on time. Secretary level, they are coming on time and i dont know whether secretaries have to check in but lower levels certainly have to check in and out. So on economic front that seems to be hopeful sign. But as a person when he came to the u. S. Earlier a friend who knows modi well modi stayed with him. He traveled with two changes of clothes. That person now has every hair in place, has an extensive wardrobe. He had fabric specially made an icon so that i dont even thousands, not rupees, dollars. Now, you see the same person . Also the other ambiguity different approach he takes he says he is servant of the people and he gives that impression and he works that way. At the same time he had dick twirly. He says these tendencies because you all have given me the order. So my being your humble servant makes me to be working at that level. So these two things about his personality, a few good from your conversations and others, because i see camping what i heard and read and heard him in Madison Square garden. But some of these things make me wonder about some of these things, if you could talk about that if you had a chance to know that . The our server what appeared to be contradictions of their which is part of what makes it so interesting to examine them and you look at. Just briefly on the Civil Servants turning up on time, i dont know what your former colleagues have told you about what its like now in delhi, but itit is all of them online as will others electronic checking in. You can go online and see whether the person in the Planning Department or whatever it is is actually turned up for work or not. So thats progress of sorts. Is addressed since has aroused a lot of attention to its interesting that the wall street journal and time magazine, is addressed since then with the dress is better than Michelle Obama or not. To be fair to him i think if youre representing your country you want to be well turned out and its not a bad thing to look smart. But he also clearly its a very important and his very very proud of the fact that he dresses well. And that he thinks he looks good. May be his own cost and design as well as its own spin doctor, i do know. But he told me he had a godgiven gift for looking smart and for knowing how to match colors and mix colors and look after his wardrobe. So perhaps its something some divinity somewhere has headed down to him. [inaudible] but i think probably that translation started, i havent owned except what he was wearing every day when he was chief minister but i suspect that transformation happened when he was in office. You do have to be careful because when your citizens who dont have the luxury of several changes of clothes everyday see that youre wearing to watch the cost of thousands of u. S. Dollars or a pain in your top pocket that has a very fancy branding on a come on one level that was okay, hes our leader i want him to look good. Hes got a right to do that. But on the other hand, you have to be a little bit careful about that. A poor mans and all the rest of it, quite good at providing the antidote to all of that. In terms of the democrat versus a dictator sometimes i think you have to a dictatorial streak in you to unblock things in government. If you sort of setback after two democratic about it and too happy to allow the normal processes default a democratic course, nothing will ever get done. Are times when you to bypass the bureaucracy come times when you have to drive horses through the bureaucracy to go to make things happen and thats not an observation of india to that in a generation about politics. But again if he could do far then people start calling you a dictator and they start saying your antidemocratic and all the rest of it. So theres a science to politics and an art to politics. The art is about getting the balance right in all these things. Lets see how much of an artist he is. Thank you michael. I have written half a dozen books in india. Two very short questions. Have you examined the role of the Indian American community in the development of is media success or explosion really . And the second is do you expect this level of zigzagging indias policy towards pakistan . Considering that he was the chief minister of a bordering state with a disputed border and with the amount of industry thats within seven minutes of pakistan air attacks . I think actually i think hes been, i dont know, i dont think hes been very consistent in pakistan. [inaudible] since then its been a pretty traditional stand up to pakistan policy as far as i can see. I know theres a lot of pressure from outside of india for that constructive lush and chip with pakistan but i think you want to constructive relationship outsourcing can get with his neighbors. He has been focus on indias immediate neighbors, although karachi has an eye on this list of travel plans as of yet, as far as i can see. In terms of the community in america, i took on a. I admit i would like to know more, and i spoke to people who did put a lot of work into the campaign, people who traveled to america just about to be part of the extraordinary experience. That money and support in some of the online campaigns were quite effective for actually being run from this country. Thats the thing about the internet. You dont always know what people who joined the campaign actually physically or. But an interesting part of the story and one that would like to learn more about spit when they about to say in response to the pakistan thing is, it could be is also biding his time because thursday a reason why theres an awareness of 2016 and the drawdown and it is going to be some sort of upheaval in that region began in a sense yes you could predict some of the risk by building a whole amount of capital with the political establishment in pakistan but theres also a counter risk which is you build all that capital and then along the durand line things are getting a little explosive may be and then the whole balance internally in pakistan choose between the political side and military complex and all the capital builders kind of do not. I mean of course everyones to make sure anything you can do for peace is being done but its a bit of a calculated gain. I think hes not going all out in either sense aggressive nor saying im going its all about the handshakes, lets do this is at all that. Is kind of keeping it low key. Theres a question over here. Good afternoon. I had a question concerning indias Foreign Policy. Have you, either of you, could you speak to maybe some change in anything significant or and if this is from modi recent campaign and has been in the position as Prime Minister so far. Hasnt been any kind of significant shift in indias Foreign Policy toward the middle east, given the increased turmoil over there specific regarding indias reliance on the middle east, over twothirds of its oil imports, if either of you could speak more to that . I dont feel particularly wellqualified. [laughter] hes made statements on the beach. Is also made it clear that hes not about to tear up all the alliances he has alliances. He has welcomed putin enthusiastically to america. That relationship with russia and its important i think the line important if i read it correctly. In terms of the specifics office is concerned about any domestic carried over from the tensions in the middle east particularly concerning the Muslim Community at home. But in terms of i think it has enough on his plate not to get too closely involved in whats going on in the middle east. I would just say that are too big key issues, obvious issues that indias very concerned with. The first is iran visavis it is linked in terms of oil but more civilization lakes and the people to people connections which have a lot of. That i think the last two three, four years it seemed some flux in a treasured pressure being exerted including through the ndaa and other aspects of u. S. Laws and sanctions in place that would actually turn down our imports quite a lot and then there was currency issues and things like that. I think if i want to be very careful about rocking the boat because he is quite come he doesnt want to disturb the relationship. The second was whether modi would rather join the fight against isis or Islamic Center of every call them i think is very careful again and lance alluded to this, it has some sort of a link to help the Muslim Population of india in india disaffected. Entity on its is a fairly moderate population in terms of its political views on salon. By actually jumping into the verge of good the setting things on fire and at first since we filed a freedom of information act to find how many indians have been involved with isis because you know they are recruited from around the world. Depending on dod but all have barely record i think that were for the went from mumbai. It is sooner you dont really want to shake things up too much. Im struck have modi was elected with a mandate to repair the economy, if you much if any part it seems hes made much stronger statement on his foreign policies, the middle east policy, moving on a very impressive plan relationship with United States. I found interesting so far but of course, its all been about for a few months. Are there any other questions from those have not posted question yesterday . Right in the back. Oshas in india which is returned a few days ago and i saw your book, mr. Lance being flashed all over the media there. You become pretty popular and on just wondering whats your writer background . Kind of accent it appears youre british and how did you jump on this topic . Obviously modi are you expecting some quid pro quo . What is going on from a british guy trying to prop him up with although we probably doesnt need propping up but he does want to show some form support of his image. Because of the recent food prices going up i guess his image has taken a hit. Recently and gradually it may be taking it. Nobody thinks anymore to change a complete and that they promote in the first time he got elected. Is will go down but what really turns you on about modi . It is part of my job to prop him up if he needs propping up his clinic somebody better than me to do it for them anyway. Thats not what its about at all. And ive done my best and as for others to judge whether i succeeded to be as evenhanded and balanced as i could in the book. I do second book i make it clear im not sure whether you get to begin with talk about how it all came about. But i can from a different political tradition. I worked for tony blair. Im on the second of. Hes not my kind of politician. And i was a insurance in the book if i had a vote in the election in 2014 i wouldnt have voted for modi the sort that kind of support, with friends like me, you know. But having said that i just love the elections. I find it elections thus taking. I get a kick out of them more than policy, more than the sort of difficult detail of making things happen when youre actually in government. I cant wait to get back to britain because we got an election under way. I cant wait for the next year when you have a fascinating election. This was asked what the election and thats what turned me onto that, what kept me interested in the whole period. And learning as much as they did in a really short space of time. I had to turn this book with incredibly quickly. I anna eshoo correctly detect the british and ive written two books on british politics and immediate and one novel have been helping him and now this one on india politics but i do learn a huge amount. As a journalist you just talk to people come talk to lots and lots of people, do lots of reading and you start to try to put the picture together. Obviously, it is slanted towards modi innocents is all about modi come and into account from speaking to him, which were exclusive andover obviously worth quoting at some length. [inaudible] the titles not bad. Im quite pleased with it. Nothing about the title is why is it called the content . That campaign was extorted. We talked previously about the problems the government had towards the end. And i think in 2014 the conditions were right for the bjp to do bookstore never will in the general elections. The election was theirs to lose which is why some people thought modi was too risky of a candidate. You cant rewrite history. You cant run the election to get under different circumstances. My guess is that if someone else had been the candidate the bjp profit wouldve ended up with the Largest Party in parliament. Debugger wouldve ended up having to form yet another coalition and find allies and support and all of the rest of it. Modis only affect on the whole process was to take the bjp over that 272 line and give them a majority in parliament. That was something extraordinary in the wake of which he goes about i think its just a great story. All right, 30second last word. Thank you. Second round of questions now starting. You know, how crucial the thing lance has moved away from aspect of the modi effect . How do you think there will be international support, and particularly of support and collaboration and the diaspora to success not only have modi but in the country and economy to become an important contributor to . I think absolutely vital. Not so much as i said earlier politically but financially and economically. I had a brief conversation with him last week when i was in india and presented him with a copy of the book which is kind of hard to separate i asked him about, okay so whats gone welcome what they please but then she becomes Prime Minister . He picked on one thing which was the railways. He said in the past when we had railways policy we decided everything they wanted a branch line. On a branch line better, they wanted to sort of use what you would call to try to determine railway policy. He said we didnt completely different. Much a policy going to be and we just made the decision based on what he perceived to be in indias best interest, the nations best interest. In terms of getting finance the finance companies opened it up and so its possible for there is a greater level of inward investment, Foreign Investment in railways and other aspects of the economy. I think crucially he wasnt jumping on airplanes and having his photograph taken in new york and washington and japan and ever else because you likes jumping on airplanes. He was doing it because he wants investment in his country. That investment in turn will lead to the changes would eventually come together well changes in peoples lives that will enable him to deliver on his promises. Thats what he is a man in a hurry. Well, this has been a real treat. I hope this discussion has whet your appetite for the book. And fortunately we dont have copies is somehow but it is available. Theres a handout outside the shows how to purchase it Available Online on amazon, et cetera. Ptb join me for a round of applause for lance price. [applause] and also for our commentator, narayan lakshman. [applause] thank you all for coming. We are adjourned. You are watching tv on cspan2 pictures look at a primetime line