Transcripts For CSPAN2 Mary Llewellyn McNeil Centurys Witness 20221113

Our speakers are wellknown journalists. Al hunt, former Washington Bureau chief, the wall street journal and host of the podcast 2022 politics war room, and the author. The book Mary Llewellyn mcneil. More them later, though. Since the book has not been released before tonight, the presenters asked that i give you a very brief bit of. Who was wallace and why should we care about him . Wallace carroll although largely unknown, today was of the most respected and influential journalists, editors and publishers of the 20th century. A reporter. The united press in europe during, the 1930s and early 1940, carol covered of the most significant events leading to and during World War Two. Then went on to work for the u. S. Office of war information, undertook two stints as editor and later publisher of the Winston Salem journal and served as number two to james reston in the Washington Bureau of the New York Times. Again more details to come, but was much more than a globetrotting journalist giving us eyewitness accounts of events, or even just your run of the mill editor. As alan mary will tell us, carol was a mentor, an example to a generation of journalists who even today still and try to follow his tenants of good journalism. These an absolute commitment, accuracy and the truth. Attention to detail, total independence and as David Freidman recently in his wall street journal review of book elegant and balanced reporting. While the world of journalism is different today, many working journalists, as well as all of who cherish and read the news, would do well to read this book. Centurys witness at long last shines a light on Wallace Carrolls remarkable life. Were looking forward to learning more about both the man and centurys witness tonight. Now a little bit more about our speakers. Al hunt, as mentioned, writes a weekly column for the hill and cohosts the 2022 politic war room podcast with james carville. Previously, he was a Bloomberg Opinion New York Times columnist covering politics and Public Policy and the executive washington editor of bloomberg news. Before joining bloomberg hunt, four decades at the wall street as a reporter and bureau chief and executive washington editor and wrote the weekly column politics and people. Mr. Hunt, new Wallace Carroll and credits him with getting him to take his first job at the wall street journal. Something that we will learn more about. Mary mcneil, a student of Wallace Carrolls at Wake Forest University city, is a former editor and writer for. Congressional quarterly and the primary of environment and health. Reagans year and the nuclear age. She has worked as an editor at the Smithsonian Institute and national of sciences and as a journalist at the winstonsalem journal. During a 28 year career at the world bank, she two global publications and led efforts on civil society, strengthening Community Driven development and government accountability. This is her first full length biography. If you could all please join me welcoming al hunt and mary mcneill. Thank you very much. You guys, you know, everybody hear me back there. Im going to turn this over to the in just a minute. But i first want to say that i revered. Mr. Carroll. I can never call him. Wallace or why . Carroll he always is. Carroll. And its so nice to have his daughter here and his granddaughter here today because. There is no one that deserves recognition as much as as he does mary. And youve done a fabulous job. But let me start by asking you, you got to wait for us. In 1978, you were a mere child. I know. And you had a wonderful career in journalism. Many years at the world bank. Why . In thousand 17 or 18, you decided to do a book on your constitutional law professor. Thats question. Well, you know, if youre very lucky when, youre young of a certain age, you run into people that stay you and that you look at. And for some reason, you want to and you just respect. And when i was at wake forest, you know, i was 20 years old and i took course on the First Amendment from Wallace Carroll. And there was something about then that you wanted to do well for, this person. He didnt talk about he wasnt loquacious. He wasnt, you know, didnt tell you everything hed done in his life. But you just knew. And so he stayed. Me and i went in to do work in journalism and left journalism for a while, work at the world bank, and then about five and a half years ago, i was in london. And i came across a called citizens of london by lynne olson, which is a wonderful book. Its about three americans who were in london right before the war, basically trying to convince us to come in to the war. And i was reading the book. And Wallace Carrolls name kept popping up all over the place. And i thought, is this my old professor . What was he doing in london . I had no idea. Finds out he was the United Press Bureau chief in london beginning in 1939. I was charge of all the coverage of the coming war. And i thought, whoa, knew because mr. Carroll never talked about the things he had done. And so i started to research this and it was like unappealing onion. The more i looked into this life, the more interesting, fascinating it became. It was a Real Adventure story in terms of his work as a foreign correspondent. He went to europe in 1929 as a 22 year old covered riots. London and paris went to cover the league of nations, saw the whole rise of fascism, then was made the age of 33. The chief of united press in london covered, the blitz, the battle of britain. Then he was of the first correspondents to go into soviet union when the nazis invaded in 1941, and after going to the front and writing about that and seeing that on his way to get out the soviet union. He landed in pearl about four days after the invasion. The or the bombing. So this was like, you know, this was everywhere. And that was sort of just the beginning of the story. So that in answer to your question, why i got intrigued why i wanted to write about him in the first place and then why i the more i learned about him, the more i thought it was a great a great story to tell. It is. Then lets stay with that European Experience the london blitz, the spanish the spanish war where he would take rickety planes and that great great peril and he very strongly believed that the that the west had to counter hitler. He understood the well before some did and was frustrated by by his country back then. Is that fair to say, mary. I think it is, because in the 1930s he went to geneva in, 1934, and was the diplomatic reporter for united press. And so he witnessed all the deliberation surrounding the rise of hitler and mussolini in the league of nations. And theres some interested parts of the book where he talks about and including one instance where he listened to hali, who was the emperor of ethiopia, and as you recall, the italian the italians invaded ethiopia, and Haile Selassie came in and a speech where he ill never forget this quote, he said that mussolinis son had described the bombing of ethiopians as a wonderful thing, because as the bombs fell down, people exploded like red flames and and i remember reading that and thinking, oh, my god. So he knew all this was going on, but was frustrated because as he would write these stories to the United States, there was very little interest at that time what was going on in europe and very little understanding of the dangers that that were arising the continent. So this all fit his belief that, you know, hitler really was something that we should be paying to and fight against. And then he went to the soviet union in 1940. Was it or 40, 40, i guess, i also should before i forget it was, it was in geneva. That he met his wife, who was a full time partner. To put it mildly. Right. I mean, your mother was as formidable as your father, right. And one of the things about the book and well get back to historical is really a love story. I had written the book and i knew about peggy carol. She a very welleducated, articulate, smart, welltraveled father, had been the head of the rockefeller and was one of the founders of the first yellow vaccine. Yellow fever vaccine. She had grown up living all over the world, traveled in the east went to vassar was an economics major. And when they met, they a perfect pair because intellects matched but she was very outgoing very effervescent he tended to be much more introverted and shy, but together they were just a formidable couple and they were married for 67. The 63 years. But what i wanted to say about the book is i had almost finished the book and i a note from pat and said we found letters that my mother wrote to her mother in the United States during the blitz also following the and into North Carolina. And do you want this box of letters. And i mean, you know, i was like, yeah, well, let me think about it. So yeah. And so this box arrived on my door and husband can attest to this. Im reading these letters and i kept saying, oh my god, oh my god. Because were so vivid and brilliant into themselves. Know because she wrote almost every day and. It was really something. And so i was able to weave this into the story and it not only contained impressions, but it talked about how she felt about him. There were letters about how he felt her when he was going to the spanish civil war. He wrote a letter to saying that leaving you was the hardest ive ever had to do in my life. They had been married for three months and she said, but you got to go. Okay. So a little of a side, but its really a story of both Wallace Carroll. And peggy carol. I we have so much to cover and so little time to do it but just one more find the soviet union. He was there, you know, right. Right before the germans invaded. And he that that you can describe either his conversation with stalin or that incredible harrowing trip he took back to meet his wife and new daughter in new york, which is about 116 days or well, two and a half months. Yeah. Well, i exaggerated a little bit, but but i mean, and it was and it was a rickety plane, a desert where you had to pay off the camel driver. Right. Yeah. You know, and then fly in across the pacific and land at pearl harbor. So, i mean, he literally used everything he had in terms of his ability to get across the asian continent a time when that was a rough thing to do and he did travel by train by rickety plane at one point they flew 100 detours or yards the right and then actually took a taxi, the desert and you know, the nomads. And he managed to get out of that. And then he really did. It was a its an adventure tale. I mean, i really think if you when you look at the map, you just get scared. Cant believe. And he was he was in negotiating with to get visas you know and at one point he pretended he was a high level british Civil Servant and he went in and made up a name for himself. And he said, this is who i am and i need visa. And the guy said, oh okay. And, you know, so it was a really a use of his of his all his all skills. And its a great its a great story why i have story is that later in his life, he gave a series of lectures to the winstonsalem community where he lived. And he told these stories. And Margaret Carol wallis, his oldest daughter, kept these tapes and she sent them to me. And was able to listen to them and transcribe them. And he was a wonderful storyteller and all the details of this were i was able to capture and get in the book. Im to skip over the role. He working with the government and government during the war. Its a fascinating chapter. We we dont have as much time, but he comes back after the war and gordon gray was secretary of the army then or was about to be. So he was secretary. And he owned the winstonsalem journal. And through another high level contact, he was introduced to mr. Carol. Its always going to be mr. Carol to me and and offered him job in sale right right and and this was in 1949 and was carol had the last couple of years writing a book about his time in the soviet union and basically you know needed a job he had three Young Children and this this gentleman who was an heir to the reynolds fortune but owned a paper invited him come down with peggy to winstonsalem to see if you know he would take this job. And they decided that it would be good place to raise their children and. I think after all, theyd been through in europe and london, it was a peaceful, nice place to be, frankly. And so he went to work for the winstonsalem journal and. Im going to combine the two stints you had there. Well talk a little bit about the inbetween stint was at the New York Times, but both 49 to 55, i think, and then 63 to 77, but he really he made it the best newspaper in North Carolina. He hired some people who went on to great do great things like tom tom wicker and tom wicker and he he did not he did not kowtow to the establishment. I think thats a fair assessment. He was certainly not a bomb thrower, whether it was tobacco or in or other issues or the environment. So, talk about some of the courage displayed. Right. Well, i think of the reasons he liked the winstonsalem that gordon gray, who owned the paper, really saw the paper as a public service. And he was willing to let carol run the paper basically, and not. And i think that independence was something that he really wanted and appreciated and. So he make the winstonsalem journal wonderful paper i was in researching, would go back and look at the early and its amazing the coverage of that paper and the investigative reporting and everything which is unfortunately nowadays is hard to find if you can find it at the local level. But when he went back editor and publisher in 1963, it was right at the cusp of the demise of tobacco industry. If you will remember. The Surgeon Generals report came saying that, you know, tobacco was bad for your health. And here he is in winstonsalem, a town that is run by the tobacco and and lots people hired by r. J. Reynolds but he didnt hold back. He wrote all about the Surgeon Generals report. He put it out there that it was dangerous. And he took a lot of heat for that. But he said i feel the people in this town need to know. They need to know of these dangers and so on. And so forth. And the similarly with other issues in the sixties that came up. Desegregation of schools. I mean it was pretty clear that both he and peggy were very much in favor of the desegregation of schools theres in the book theres things where i said that they had previously about the and particularly peggy you know how distressing was the segregation in carolina at the time and he he instead though of being a flame thrower he managed the coverage of that to push but to not inflame more. There were riots in winstonsalem and he would go down to the office and and spend the night to make sure things, didnt get out of control and was in very careful coverage. You know careful of the coverage, but he pushed the agenda. You know, he he was able because he was so respected to push the desegregation agenda forward. You know issue after issue during that time you say he he he did that and had a major influence on the town but south too i mean he was the leading newspaper person in the south at the time. Well, i was in North Carolina the early sixties at college. And i think North Carolina had his problems and they had they had riots there, demonstrations. But it it fared in those Turbulent Times. It did in those Turbulent Times than any other southern state. Certainly much better than the neighboring states of virginia, South Carolina and a lot of it, i think, had some of it had to do with karen. Terry sanford was a great governor. He a big, big difference down there. But a lot of it had to do with newspapers. There were a number of other good newspapers in North Carolina. But i think, you know, mr. Cowles, winstonsalem journal was probably the best. And they i think they, had a huge influence. Mary im going to come back to one or two things in winstonsalem, but he he worked for eight years as the New York Times Deputy Bureau chief, although i think can call him Scottie Reston. Now, can i ask who i, i knew fairly well, or i know least . And he told me one time that hed never known a newspaperman that had better judgment than molly carroll, and thats why he trusted him for. And david shribman, if you havent read that wall street journal review, you really ought to. David shribman went to work for the New York Times in 1981. That was 18 years after mr. Carroll had left. And you sit around the office, they would still ask questions when it was a thorny, what would wally do . I mean, it was just the huge impact he had. But he in 1968, one of the really landmark influential editorials, the winstonsalem journal front page, where artists on the vietnam war. Now, mr. Carroll was a cold warrior. He was, you know, grew up with the dean. And that cold war, the George Kennans and the vietnam war. Back then. For those of you who werent around it, did split the country and the democrats were split, too. Johnson was the president and the cold war air scoop jackson. The others were, you know, bombing back to the stone age. And he wrote brilliant editorial that came at it not from the left, but basically argued that it was done in american interest. Can describe it in a minute but whats so influential about it . His good friend dean showed it to Lyndon Johnson. And two weeks later, lyndon announced he was not going to run reelection. He was going to try to focus on ending that war. So so tell and tell us a little bit more about that extraordinary editor. Well, i think that its true. I think it was probably the thing he was most for, because when he wrote the editorial 1968, it not only appeared the winstonsalem journal, it was picked up over the country and the timing was perfect because johnson was under a lot of pressure. There had been some significant military defeats in vietnam, tet offensive and the tet offensive, other things. And i think this was part of his his why he was so great, his timing and understanding of World Affairs was so great that i think he produced this right at the right time. And it was a very reasoned, it laid out point, point why it was not in the interests of the United States to in vietnam and it was rational. It was very clear to and it was a very convincing document, obviously, for johnson but across the country to and i think this is one of the things he is most remembered and people that remember that editorial ive talked to people that say, oh i remember reading that editorial and it was really significant. And, you know, carol never went in to tv or radio because had a real belief in the of words. And it sounds a little archaic now, given world were living in the digital world. Were living in. But i think the quo vadis, which is where do we go from here, translated is the single example of the power of words to influence policy, at least in carols, because it really it really did that kind of an influence. And you, if any writing today would be to to have the same kind of influence because he was so well respected and people would say oh yes this is a great article, but only on on a par for Wallace Carroll. Right. And where was coming from . As i say, this not one of the you know, the the leftists who were against it. And, you know, i think you could write the same editorial about afghanistan and iraq, but doubt it would have the kind of impact that that did back then. Lets stay. He he also won a Pulitzer Prize the Winston Salem journal because he was a devoted conservationist and. Environmentalist. So talk a little yeah i think later later in his both he and peggy they had bought a a piece of land in the country up in the mountains. And i think they became very interested in in environmental causes and preserving the environment and. There was strip mining in western North Carolina that was being developed and of his reporters, a woman, who basically was not an investigative reporter, but he put her on the case. I would just interrupt to say a reporter. He had more women reporters than most newspapers. Yes. And back people like Bonnie Angelo and, marjorie hunter. And one of the great things, he was much better than his dear friend, Scotty Reston on that particular issue. I think. I think youre right. Yeah. Anyway, he put this woman, arlene edwards, on to the story. She said, well, i started to call the Mining Companies and they lied to me. And as soon as they lied me, i said, okay, were going to get were going to get them. And Wallace Carroll said, okay, lets go after this. And for about four or five months, almost every day, they had something in about about the strip mining that was going on and it was dangerous to the environment and so on and so forth and finally, the company, they said, okay, were going to stop this. The company pulled out and there has been no strip mining. Western North Carolina, which is a beautiful of the country, by the way, ever since then and then in 1971, he was. He was a member of the Pulitzer Prize, the Pulitzer Board for several years. And in 1971, the papers submitted their submission to the board for, the Pulitzer Prize. And carol, of course had to leave. He couldnt be involved in the negotiations, but they were awarded the Pulitzer Prize for their environmental reporting for a paper there. That was a huge, wonderful thing for a local paper and a regional, too, to get that kind of. But i think it was very well deserved. Yeah, no, it really was i. I will tell one quick story about Scotty Reston, who i got to know when i was in washington. I was reading the wall street journal. We would have lunch periodically. And one time he told me what a good job we were doing covering washington in my head, when ten times. All because he was my you one of my idols, he said, but let me ask you a question i said, whats that . He said, why do you do those Silly Television shows . And i said, well, you know, the towns changing. You reach a different audience, you expand, blah, blah, blah. And he said, i midlife crisis thought that was as good an answer as i know when when mr. Carol leff retired from from the team joe he didnt retire among things he thought he told people you constitutional law, First Amendment law, wake forest being was engaged in a lot of other important endeavors wasnt he. Yeah. And you know the challenge of writing this this mans life was, it was just so many incredible things he had done because he lived till he was 95. So he had a long and very wonderful life. Yeah. He taught at wake forest and he also was very involved in the preservation of the new river. He and peggy together they sort of took this on as a cause at the time river was to be the Power Company had you know many years been working to get the river dammed and several places and so they started basically an effort to to stop the dams and to keep the river preserved. And i think peggy was also really and this was her thing in a big way, too. And so thing he did was he wrote to every editor, he knew in the country and that a lot of editors i mean, it was like 150 editors from small town newspapers to, the wall street journal and washington post. And he said, we need to really write you need to write something in your papers that says that this is a National Issue that we cannot let these rivers be dammed, that the People Living on their banks needed to be safe. And this is, you know, one of the countrys national. And we cannot have it, you know, damaged. And what happened is of these editors and in the in the book i have some quotes they they didnt really know him personally, but they knew who was carol was and they just ran editorials all over the country calling for know to to preserve the river and it raised it turned it from a regional issue into a National Issue. And i think that was his big contribution to that and in 1976 the river was taken into the National Scenic rivers act. So it was preserved and they peggy and Wallace Carroll at the white house when jerry ford signed that bill and then it it has now become as many of you know the new river is in the valley is now the countrys latest National Park protected forever, which happened in 2020. So this was sort of their legacy, i think among other things that that they really worked on, it was a big deal. They beat both corporate and power. Yeah. And they it wasnt easy to get that through congress with only three. Right. I think i dont think they could have done it without major garrett. Right. Tell me any other you want to tell before we go to mean i mean, you can do it in the 60 seconds, cant you, mary . Just an incredible life. But were going to go to your questions. But i dont want to leave anything that i skipped over that you want to touch on. Then well get probably a better out there. Who . Hmm. Well, you know, i think. Theres something about. Was carol going back to your original . Why did i write it . And when i the book, i sent it out to people that didnt know me from anybody, but were very, very. You. And and really high up you know Norman Pearlstine former content editor of Time Magazine start bloomberg and people like the wall street journal and right. And you know, i said, hey know im mary mcneil and ive just written this book and i thought if hear anything back, it be a miracle. But i swear it was the most gratifying because every last person because of Wallace Carroll and hes been gone now, he passed away in 22, wrote me back and said, oh, well, we really you need to get this out. This is wonderful. We to remember what was carol was and the lessons he taught us and the influence he made in a very quiet way and, you know, on a generation of journalists. So thats one thats one story that i wanted to get. But then the last little dose is that and it goes to when your a College Student and you dont really what youre doing and youre nervous and anxious. I was working as an intern at, the wall street journal. And so at winstonsalem journal, i never made it to the wall street journal. Not even close. I always got confused. Actually, i did. Okay. And you . I was sitting in the corner and i was really nervous, you know, not knowing what i was doing. I was in the newsroom in that time. You know, it was very busy, noisy and everybody, it was full and meeting deadlines, running in and out. And all of a sudden, everything quiet. And i thought, whats going on and i looked around and in the newsroom had stood up and i went, what . You know . And i looked down and Wallace Carroll had walked in the back door. And as soon as he walked in, he didnt say anything. Everybody working and stood up and was just like this. And i told story to donald graham, who is wonderful. He knew a Wallace Carroll and hes helped a lot. The book the intern in there. Yeah, he was an intern there. He loved this because he said boy reference in newsrooms is pretty scarce. You know, i will i know one thing. There was one that he wrote in in the sixties, i guess, about journalism, about the tyranny of objectivity right thinking about the mccarthy. Its a its something that is as applicable today as it is back then. The idea i mean, one would argue that you ought to give equal treatment to mothers for drunk driving and. I think we get so caught up in this ridiculous term of objectivity. You want to be fair, i think, mr. Kalb, you know, totally understood that its thats a just another brilliant piece of journalism. I will tell. And open it up to everyone. I am going to tell my story. When i was i worked my last year of college at the winstonsalem journal, part time. And it was you know, it was it was really a very joyful newsroom. I mean, people fun and it was just it was a great newsroom and i had it was my last year and i wrote to a number of places to see if they would hire me. And id been offered a job at the winstonsalem, which was a really you know, that was a good to be. They had a lot of it was kind a farm club for the New York Times and the wall street journal had flown me up to new york and offered me a job and i accepted it fine. And i told the winstonsalem journal and they were very nice about it. And weekend, about three weekends before school was. And then the Charlotte Observer had a north and South Carolina journalism contest and i won some things and went down there. And an editor, the Charlotte Observer, pulled me aside and said, wed like to offer you a job. And i said, well thank you, but ive accepted a job with the wall street journal. They said, the biggest mistake youve ever made in your and said what you said, theyre notorious for taking people up to new york and you never hear from them again. Here i am, 21 or 22, and im just my career is over before its begun. And i came back and monday morning i went. I asked if i could see mr. Carroll and i went in and i told in the story and i said, i dont know if its possible if your job offer is still there. And he really he didnt get angry. He said, that man doesnt know what hes talking about. He said, that is so dumb. He said, theres paper in the country that better achieves its objectives. In the wall street journal. And whether you stay there for one year or whether you stay there for ten years, you will be a better journalist. So i decided to stay for but i wouldnt say without without mr. Kerr, lets throw this open mary kay, whos got some good questions. And i think whereas nicole they supposed to come up here, shes for the poor folks that cant make their way. We have some people coming up. Well, i cant read my own writing. I took notes here and i have no idea what i was saying, but that, you know, that the reston carroll relationship was an extraordinary one. I saw tom the other day who said theres no that my dad had greater respect or professional admiration or fondness for than than wally carol. So that was a very, very special and one story you do have. Please come on up. Are you . Youre ready. Ill continue with my tell who you are. If i. My name is Smith Richard smith. Im ordinary citizen. Now. When i as you went through the early part, the really exciting and derring do part of the Wallace Carroll struck me and this happens here at book talks here from time time that exciting things like this say well this would make a great movie you know this is really cinematic material so i dont know whether youve already addressed but it also occurred to me that you go on in the story, it gets derring do and it gets more well intellectual and more newsroom and so forth. So just your your comments on the movie worthiness, the book and whether whether you would want the book, any movie to cover the entire life rather than just, you know, some piece of or whatever. What are your whos going to play pat exactly. Well, i mean, sure. I mean, it would be, you know, would be wonderful if that happened. But i do think that henry fonda be okay. But i do that theres an adventure story there. And the chair if were to do the book over again, i might just focus on one part of his life because. It really was so many things were substantial and interesting. But but you know, when i when i listen to these about, you know, his adventures in this trip, it took, i think it very much is something that could be you know turned into is something that would be very interesting as a movie but you know everybody every author hopes that and you know, you try to integrate it all well you you could actually take different parts of it. You could take different parts it and make it into something because it was such a rich, rich life. , i appreciate your point about derring do in the thirties versus but you know standing up for integration in the south in, the sixties, taking on the Tobacco Companies or at least im being, you know, reporting about Tobacco Companies and the time dominated by r. J. Coming out against the vietnam war. I dont know if you call it derring do, but it was certainly right. It was all very, very courageous my only point was that the character of the movie would change. But thats its great thing. I mean, it would be something that reviewers would take note of and it were done. Well, it would be great. So yeah, one thing i have to add, you know, if you had met Wallace Carroll, you would be and this was part of the fun of researching it, you would never have thought. He was the kind of guy who would be doing these kinds of risk, adventurous, you know, travel. And there because he was very quiet, very dignified and. That was part of the fun of it. Im looking at it because, you know, was he had incredible daring and you know, when he was in the spanish war and other places, he really risked a lot. You know, he barely survived. Know. So thats part of the interesting about him but yeah so someone else is here. Yes, i know, frank im a little he hes standing right behind a pillar of and i used to be in the call. Can we. Yeah. Good. Okay. Hi. Im record and im a friend of marys and michaels and a big fan of the book. So, mary, i wonder if you could talk a little bit about the book you wrote about about russia, that soviet union and its impact on the us, the thinking, the views of the toward union after World War Two and how thought about soviet union from his experiences with stalin and others, and about the aftermath of that, how it affected it, and also, can you just get one more little question a little further on about when he did land in hawaii, pearl harbor here . I think he wrote some article or editorials regarding japaneseamericans and, their role that they might have played in the attack or whatever. And i think those things he might have regretted later. And im just wondering how some of those events that those articles you wrote in that book Maya Van Rossum later and some of the things he wrote thought about including, quote, it, i mean, thats a very good question because weve sort of painted as rather state like and he did make a couple mistakes and i think he admitted it and he did regret it. Or you could you could call them mistakes. But first, the soviet union, when he was in the league of nations in the 1930s, he watched at that time the delegate to league of nations from the soviet union, a man named maxime lytton. And he was very impressed by him because he basically thought that the soviet. Union was the only real country that was sort of looking peace in the in the league of nations. So i think he had a little bit of a predilection shown to be sympathetic to the soviet union. And when he went in in 1941, you know, he was there for three and a half months. He went to the front lines and he there for the sole purpose. And ill tell you why. The sole purpose to find out. Well could the soviets stand up to the nazis . And we knew very little about the soviet union army back then because stalin would not let anybody in. He had purged the senior staff of the soviet army and in fact, in the book i found George Marshall when soviets invaded, when the nazis, the soviet union, he called in a bunch of reporters and executive editors and said, we dont whats going on there . Can you help us find out . And one of them was was boss who said, you, you know, the Us Government intelligence needs to know what the status is of the, of the soviet army and if theyre going to be whole, be able to hold off this onslaught and himself felt, oh, only for a couple of months, you know the thought was, oh, theyre just going to be overrun and so on and so forth. So when went into the soviet union, that was his purpose is that to find out and so therefore when he went to the front lines and you and he said, i only have my eyes to observe and the people i can contact, he came back and said, yes. His feeling was that soviet union was going to be able to hold off nazis and that they were committed and they were behind it. And then he wrote a book in 1942, a very in which he said that the book is called were in this with russia. And said he felt that they would do that now he did not go into the issues with stalin, which we have now come to know in terms of what stalin was doing to his people and how horrible, frankly stalin was. He had met him and interviewed him. But and i think later in 1945, when all of came about, he regretted that he had written such a glowing report on the soviet union. And i think thats one reason he became a real cold, because he the more he found out about what was really going on in the soviet union, the more he recognized. In fact, in his book in 1942, he said, dont think the soviet union after the war is to want to invade eastern europe, do any of that . They have too many internal problems. So he was wrong he was wrong about that. He felt bad about that. And i think but, you know, as as time went on, he joined the achesons and he was very much recognized that the russians were a problem and he you know, was honest about that. And in 1949, he actually wrote article for life magazine in which he said that the germans, they invaded ukraine. If they had accepted the help of the ukrainians who hated the soviets, then the germans could have really gone in. But hitler wouldnt do that instead of accepting the help of the soviets, the ukrainians who hated the soviet union, he shipped them off in cattle, cars and so on and so forth. So thats the first part of he was wrong, but i think he learned and changed but you have to put it in the of the time you could hardly come and and report out that we be working with the soviets defeat hitler. That was the main goal on the japanese thing and this is really interesting. He did write an article which said there were japanese spies in hawaii around pearl harbor that helped and aided in the attack because he was well and basically the only reporter on the ground at the time. Story ran all over the country and it did leave an impact that was unfortunate in that at the time the us and led by people in the Congress Republicans in the congress were very vociferous in their hatred of the of the japanese and this sort of fed into you know, that feeling that we had to round up american japanese and we had to put them in camps and they were a danger and so on. But this is also i think he deeply regretted moving ahead because i dont think he recognized the impact that that might have. But he did get the story confirmed by knox who was the military officer at the time. He did get out in the field. He did talk a lot of people who told him this. So i know he got it wrong, but, you know he wasnt the kind of reporter that would just do it without having sources and getting it. Okay. Yeah, it was unfortunate, but but, but in the context, the times, i mean, one of the great proponent of the, the camps was earl. You know, ed would be great. Supreme court chief justice. So im not defending. I think he was wrong and it was unfortunate he just has a pretty good track record. My name is rebecca. I was a former journalist and now work for a nonprofit. My generation of journalists read whatever books. Al hunt tells us to read so. Im excited to read your book. And right now im rereading Katharine Grahams great autobiography and we forget with all the of watergate, so many of the crises that she faced during her tenure, not only on the editorial side, but on the business and publishing side. And i just wonder what you think was his biggest crises or, a couple of the biggest crises that he faced in the newsroom during his tenure. Oh, thats good question. You know, i will jump in for please say everybody faces crises mean theres no question of that he would have faced a lot more crises. Hed been there 20 years later. I mean, the newspaper business, the local journalism in America Today is dying. Its one of the great, saddest stories of our i mean, the wall street, washington post, New York Times, great local papers or not. And i think having a great editor like mr. Carroll would have made a difference. But the Business Model just doesnt work anymore. So thats not. And mary, you jump in if you think he faced a crisis like Katharine Graham faced with a well i do think he lived a time where you had owners like his owner in in north gordon gray, who, you know, they had the means and they let him do what he wanted to do. And they they saw the newspaper as a public service. Every profit that was made was put back into the paper. Gordon gray never took a red cent from the winstonsalem journal course. Thats a different world, very different than what we live in today in terms of a specific crisis. You know, when he was in the New York Times. There was a change of management at the times. He and Scottie Reston and i call him scottie to a had a lot of independent arts. You know, they did what they wanted, but it got to be that the times was starting to down once too often to washington, editing their copy, max frankel said at one point, a famous reporter was there that reading their copy, it had been edited in new york. Was it was hard to keep down your lunch because . They had changed it so much and carroll didnt like this. And he wrote an article about where he interviewed John F Kennedy and new york wanted him to put a quote in from that Wallace Carroll had not heard. And he said, no, i did hear him say that. And the New York Times ran it anyway. And shortly thereafter, Wallace Carroll left he said he could see the writing on the wall and this is not the independence that i want and i think that was a little bit of a crisis for him in the sense of you know just having stick to his guns in terms of the kind of reporter he wanted he wanted to be as the Washington Bureau chief for a new york based newspaper. Im shocked theres tension between new york and washington. I the. Whos next . Oh, scott, i just to ask a quick question about quo vadis, the editorial you wrote so you were saying, you know, he didnt know the impact of the japanese stories they wrote. Did he know this editorial was going to be a galvanizing piece or did he just write it out of his out of the daily business and it came out and had or was he aware is going to be a massive break and its going to change things. Thats a good question. And i have to say, im not sure, but what i think he did and i mentioned it earlier, his timing was impeccable and he may have thought, okay, now is the time to write this kind of an article. And i think he hoped that it would be influential but i dont know that he wrote it knowing it would be as influential as it was but you have to understand he knew everybody in the administration you know, he was best friends with acheson and and they him a lot and so they put the editorial right in front of Lyndon Johnson and said, you know, you got to read this. So its hard to predict whether he knew what would happen. But in a way it was right guy at the right time and his timing and the right message and and the timing. That doesnt just you know, you have to know whats going on and have a real handle on on on Public Policy and International Affairs to know the right timing and how to articulate Something Like that. Yeah. Thank you. Youve got time for at least one more. Hi. I am wallaces great granddaughter. And so when i was growing up, i was wah wah wah. Oh, thats okay. But so i didnt really hear a ton about him growing up and i havent read the book, but so i was but i heard a lot about my moms dad, john carroll, and his like experience in newspapers. So i wondering whether if you knew whether wallaces career had influence on johns and whether or not you talk about that in the book at all was just my question. I, you know, i do talk about it somewhat in the book, but i think the what is it . The fruit doesnt fall far from. The tree. I think the more i learned about carroll, the more i realized that they were very, very similar in the way they the profession and their integrity, in their courage. And i do think, you know, this is an understated family. Im looking at that. You theyre not people that go around and, say, you know, im great. And so and so but i do think that the of Wallace Carroll really were fulfilled played out through john carroll. I think theres very little difference in the way they approached journalism and also i can say in the way were beloved. I mean you know ive talked to many journalists now who who worked with john and they they, you know, they really respected and really learned and thought very very, very highly of him. You i would just add that youre that your your grandfather and your great grandfather. Well, they were so strikingly similar in so many ways. They were just they were both soft spoken. But with, you know, a will of of iron, tremendous integrity, courage. They just and as mary said, they they just commanded such respect and adulation from the people that work for them talk to people who are at the l. A. Times when john carroll was there, people who were the Baltimore Sun or the lexington paper when he on the university of kentucky in sports in kentucky thats like taking on tobacco and in winstonsalem. So i mary is right it didnt drop very far from the trade. Whatever that cliche is. Lets one more were on a roll. Hi, rick collins. Im actually a classroom mate. A marriage from wake forest. Hey, theres another classmate here to make wash his hair. So i did not have the benefit of having what was carol as a professor. In fact, mary probably wouldnt have liked me to be in the class anyway, you know, like to avoid me, but i think i think id be really, really interested in hearing, you know what, carol the professor do you have, you know, just react. React. Okay. However want. Well its true that my old friend big nottingham here or big walsh is here and she did. Wallace carroll is a professor. You know i say in the book he he was very quiet and he would stand the corner and he would listen to what you had to say. And every now and then he would ask a question and you you just. Didnt want to appear stupid. Lets lets put it that way. Am i right . Mean not that he ever said anything threatening or was trying be intimidating in any way, but there was something about his presence that you just kind of knew and and ive also included in the book i interviewed couple of former students and they all said the thing that you just wanted to do well, for the for the guy, you know, even as a student, you wanted to write the best paper you could and and you didnt want to you know screw up in any way. And even though he he was of quiet and dignified, he also was very welcoming. He took us up to his farm in the country. We would have picnics with peggy and and him. So like i said, youre lucky if you if you run across somebody like that when youre young and and and i think he a lot to those students that ten years he taught but he only taught class but i think and ive talked to those students the sam ervin the sam ervin lecture of course relevant today know one of his students i to and she said that and when im read this everything Wallace Carroll said seem relevant to the real world outside the wake forest bubble. I could sense everything we learned would be important. I remember how regally he stood, how elegantly he dressed, and how regularly he strolled across the campus for. His swim sessions right, right. And this particular commentator went on to win two Pulitzer Prizes. She she is a journalist at in North Carolina. This has been terrific. I dont want to cut it off, but nicole says shes going to give me the hook if. I dont. Are you going to try to cheat and get one in . Go ahead. Hello . Shes going to. Oh. Right, right. Anyway, we all read the book, he was an extraordinary he changed so many lives, including mine and. Mary has just in effect, she captured him. My only regret in reading the book was that i wish i had known more about him before because he and he really was the centurys witness. Thats right. So thank you all very my name is jan mason. And i