Transcripts For CSPAN2 Open To Debate 20161224

Media, has written a number of books. We met about a year ago at a a conference that was put on by the Berkeley Program at yale, and i can see that at the time she has a real affinity for trying to understand the connection between the Communications World and the media world on the one hand, and different elements of the conservative movement on theun other. So this is a natural kind of outgrowth of her previous work looking at that general area. Open to debate is the book. Heather has watched not maybe every single one of 33 yearss with the firing line episodes but pretty close to it i think. She is probably the reigning expert now on all things related to firing line. So please help a welcome heather hindershot to the podium. [applause] thanks so much. Its really great to be here, h, particularly here at the hooverr institution because the hoover was so important to the research i did on the book. I was out of stanford all the papers are and, of course, they preserved all the episodes and so on but the papers and transcripts, i really couldnt have done it without the Hoover Institution so its great to be here. The first thing people asked me about this book is why did you write it . Hy did you write it. The short, quick answer in part is this guy, i have been working on the book since 2011, about a year and half ago it became more urgent as our level of discourse seem to be deteriorating in the shouting matches be increase. It seemed like an important time to be talking about a show that really valued civil discourse and civil debate to be people who disagreed with each other. Part of the the reason was from that impulse. But the other source of the book is more personal but intellectual development. The book in 2011 whats fair on the air was about the extremist who emerged in radio and television, mostly local radio but somewhat on tv in the years following Barry Goldwaters defeat in 64, Barry Goldwater totally came out in the election, he got 10,000,000 10 million votes but he was trounced. People had a sense that the conservative movement instead, but the conservative movement blossomed in the wake of that defeat. In in some of this was on this legitimate side when oakley was advocating for but also a lot of extremism, paranoia and people like the John Birch Society emergent, that president eisenhower was a conscious, dedicated agent of a conspiracy, so these folks took to the airwaves and with their conspiratorial paranoid thinking and buckley at first was appearing on some of their tv shows, this is him in the early 60s on a show called fast form which is created by a texas Oil Billionaire so buckley was a regular guest on that show but he figured out quickly that this guy was bad for the movement, bad for the image of conservatism, he, he was an extremist and paranoid and just to tell you little bit about buckley, he emerged emerged as a National Figure 1951 with the publication of god and yell and a tack on his alma mater. This made him a minor celebrity, the book etched into the bestseller list at number 14, he became known from this book, but he really became known a few years later and 65 when he ran for mayor of new york because if you run for mayor you become a National Figure figure not just a local figure to new york city. He ran as a protest candidate on the conservative ticket. He he was protesting that john lindsay, was not conservative in any way, and buckley very famously was asked what would you do, was the first thing youll do if youre elected and he said demand a recount because it just seems so unlikely. Sure enough he he did not win but he staked a claim for conservative republicanism. And this really put him in a position to start his own tv show just one year later, because he was articulate in the media and there was a great coup for his campaign and in the middle of it all there is a newspaper strike, that met the radio and tv coverage of the campaign increase dramatically and buckley was great on tv. His great impart not only because he was articulate, smart and charming, he was not afraid to show what he really thought and felt, so here he is, john lindsay, lindsey looks upset and buckley so bored, because lindsay is not very articulate, smart and interesting and buckley complained that buckley wrote his own speeches with your playing syntax, just terrible syntax and so people wrote letters to buckley and set i disagree with you and i went out for you but thanks for being honest and pointing to how much of politics was a rigmarole. So for for example he would decline to go to parades because he was like were not going to talk about policy at parades thats just image stuff and he was really campaign parttime for mayor. So he was seen as an honest candidate even by people who thought he was much too conservative for them. So year after the campaign he started his Television Show, firing line which ran from 66 until 99 about 1500 episodes, and i want to show you a clip from that first year with david, he was a tv talk show host wellknown as a liberal, he had a show called open and, was called open and because it was openended, if the conversation was going well they would keep talking for a few hours to the end of the broadcast way, if it wasnt going well they cut it off at 30 or 45 minutes its kind of amazing this was happening at the time so he was one of the earliest guest and now show you two clips from the show to show you flavor of the program. The first time in Television History the people are interested on he who founded the program dedicated precisely to the proposition committed viewers to listen to as many as three hours at a stretch for many remain through communication with their reviews and ideas for which we are very grateful and then a staunch liberal in every context of the title, mr. Eleanor roosevelt would unquestionably when it theres nothing as a prevailing buyers, so were at the point and youre most welcome, to give us your preliminary views. Why think it was unwelcome to how you introduce me. [inaudible] on the oak asian and old programs you would bend in your [inaudible] it what a genteel disagreement right, so he is just fuming, he is such a short fuse and buckley has not always a long cute views but in this case he does, the charming meeting of people who week clearly cant really stand each other and i will show you one more clip from the same episode. Were not here to deny that by and large the surfaces have a television and they are liberal dominated. If you use it, of course i do. I think our country in the last 40 years has been a liberal in our churches, our schools and communication media,. So thats really the dominant line at the time. It points to how lunatic it would seem if it had a conservative Public Affairs talk show 1966 and people think this is a liberal country, what are you talking about so its kind of amazing. In addition to political guests, buckley also also had cultural figures, artistic figures, box specialist who is devoted to a bar can they would discuss bok and so on and i wanted to show you a clip from an episode with Norman Mailer to give you a sense of what he did outside the strictly political discussion. This conversation is not a political, is from 1968 and mailer has published armies of the night and shortly after he appeared on the show he won the Pulitzer Prize and was about the mark on the pentagon and the opening is buckley reading aloud from i believe Time Magazine, their coverage of mailer at this after more obscenity, mailer introduced law who got annoyed and requested to speak later. Ill bellow but wont do any good. By the time the mailer was perky enough to get himself arrested. He explained with some pride on the way to the lockup. So, a tech. Thats your time. Its good for the time. You were talking about maturation. I never i dont know what that means. Thats the continuing correspondence. Thats they talk of engaging in a scatological solo. Thats what you get from the idea. So the confession i made what about victorrization. Between the the intervention. You can see youre a student of the subject. Keep up with me. Trying to refocus the discussion. The Time Magazine observed okay so maybe the first and last time the word was used on american television, and really on any Television Show. Im sure all of you are very sophisticated and know what it means but is means urination. So, its a very sophisticated discussion about the scatological about a charming debate between people with very different world views but people enjoy this kind of sparring match, talking about their ideas on the show. Buckley also had the spokespeople of radical movements in 60s and 70s. He had black power folks on the shortthis Milton Henley and he is wearing a giant onc and had two security guards in fatigues behind him, who never moved throughout the whole thing, and theyre up armed but probably usually are armed. Some kind of negotiation with the producer to not have guns on she, and buckley never acknowledges theyre there. Never even makes eye contact. Just talks to milton henry. And what is radical in part about the appearance of black power on the show is that the coverage of black power elsewhere was mostly sensationalist, up so bides and nixon conveyed to the network in the early 70s they shouldnt cover back power anymore, and ignore it. He encouraged them not cover vietnam as well but the continued to cover vietnam. But the dead minimize in the coverage of black power so if wasnts to learn about black power you didnt subscribe to a newsletter, firing line was a good place to learn about it. Whether you tight it was a great idea or terrible idea. You could here the ideas expressed unedited on the show and that was remarkable. He also had heres Eldridge Cleaver on the show. He also covered the Womens Liberation Movement on the practice he had betty fer dna on early on, and he was not a very good speaker, kind of inarticulate and was not invited back for 18 years and was the voice of the mainstream liberal feminism. A better episodes with we germane greer who was published at the female eunuch and buckley enjoyed talking to her. Let me show you a clip from that encounter from the early 70s. Which appeared sometime like a contradiction in my book, i to make he and she words equal or screen out she as forever incapable of equaling he grammatically. Grammatically. You could be antifeminism by suppressing the female in a pronoun. The hierarchy. Never heard of early man, you should refer to early humans which means you cant use not only that. What it mean is is that the real attitude is going to be concealed by a form of primitive censorship, and the actual situation wont change. Its like calling people when theyre married. Doesnt change the fact of their marriage. Its hypocrisy. You think of the answers on nomenclature is preposterous. Such a trivial aspect of the real struggle and been given so much attention. Its part of the general movement to coopt the struggle for existence, really, and turn it into something okay, so, its a really interesting moment because actually the two people agree about the nonsense of the way that liberal feminism wants to change language and both agree that ms. Is a bad idea. Buckley things its not its so jarring. And she says, it doesnt change the structural relationship of marriage if you call yourself ms. , so thought she was kind of loon tack as far as trying to lunatic as far as trying to take down the family but they agreed about this issue in laing and after the show he wrote a thank you note, a as he always dade, and sacker god dam it youre good and she did not want to come back on the show but he was a terrific show. They just debated at Cambridge Student Union the week before and she had resoundingly won that debate about womens liberation bay a photo of the cambridge students so in a way this episode was a rematch after that debate. Buckley also had of course antifeminists on the show. The subject of the equal rights amendment came up and this is phyllis schlafly. The antifem is in activist and he also had Margaret Thatcher on the show twice, and this i want to show you a clip from the q a. She was not there to talk about womens liberation, did not want to talk about gender issues at all but jeff greenfield, one of the common q a guys at the time on at the questioner panel as a younge man, brought it up. And so this is their exchange. I wonder if your reputation, when you a cabinet member, the was Margaret Thatcher, no snatcher because of your ox to the program and that and your ideological stand helped you overcome the stereotypical objections to a Woman Holding office. No. Very surprised, as i said, that at home on the whole we just look at the person and not necessarily the sex. Youre limited. Youre a man. Certainly. The public the interesting thing foss mr. Is the local government has not restored the free will despite all the propaganda, but, look, i i think these questions are very trivial. You dont mind my saying so. You can sense the sweet break the sweat breaking out, just been told off by Margaret Thatcher, and buckley is great because matcher is saying gender is to answer iin uk and buckley is just poppycock, nonsense. If women are so qualified how come there rant more women in office and pushes back in an interesting way. Another great episode was he did a few episode is with clare booth luce but this one episode, she specifically asked to be on she show to talk about feminism and they were old friends and he cooperate disagree with the idea of having her on the show so he did and he gave her this long, very positive introduction, and he concluded the introduction by saying, i should like to begin by asking if you find the way that people introduce you on Television Talk shows to be condescending. Heres what she says. I thank you for that warm introduction. You will be pleased to know that i read the entire introduction, and there was only one put down. This is a high level of achievement for a man introducing a woman. You spoke of the inability on occasion to hold your tongue. Now, had you been speaking of a man who spoke out, whether he was speaking out rightly or wrongly, you would have said by what he says, he is overly candid. You might use many phrases, but women hold her tongue is a phrases that men frequently use. Opinion of the truth. No. It comes out of mans need, desire, highly successful, over the centuries to master women. So thats the beginning of the show, and then at the end of the show, as he is about to cut to the q a session he says to her, the notion that women are inferior to men is an original sin of which i am not guilty, that women are inferior to men never occurred to me. Theres different is patently obvious and i would not want to see them behind the wheel of every mac truck but you would find that insult organize would you, he is saying what do you really think. This is her response. Im much too fond of you to tell you what i really think. Perhaps one of the most charming and subtle and sophisticated of mail cough nists. I love that. Its flirty and bashful but she says, i never say it to you publicly, and obviously over a three martini lunch at his favorite Italian Restaurant you can imagine her telling him off quite a bit privately. So its a wonderful sort of public moment of friendly disagreement between these two. I warrant to read to you from the book from the introduction and then from the chapter on civil rights and black power movement, and give you a sense of the flavor of the book. Thats 20 minutes, and then we will open up to q a. All know the program was undenily his for 33 years, firing line was not his idea. Its hard to major a tv star lest interested in tv than buckley. He won an emmy for firing line in 1969 and was the longest running Public Affairs show with a single host in u. S. History. But buckley remained a tv industry outsider. It would be somewhat unfair, even uncouth, to describe buckley as a snob. He did write a fun novel about elvis presley, and if he failed to understand how anyone could consider mick jagger a good singer, his voice couldnt be better than that of every fourth person lift nest the tell dont direct hi listeneds the the beatles during sessions with hi personal trainer. But he could not stand the beatle. In 1970 he consented to be interviewed by playboy magazine. Made him practically hip. The appeared on the show, laughin, explaining didnt interview we playboy because i decided it was the only way to communicate my views to my son. And noting that he had only agreed papp on laugh insure because the producers offered to fly him out to california on an airplane with two right wings. At a press conference for buckley where henry gibson kerryed, mr. Buckley, whole youre on television youre always seated. Does this mean you cant think on your feet . Buckley responded its very hard to stand up carrying the weight of what i know. As though opinion about nudity and entertainment he tersely replied, its excessive. And asked finally whose image would be more hammered by his appearance on laughin, his or she shows, laughed and said i suppose it will make you more respect ail, coy wink, and me less so, and both probably to be desired. Manage ode play along and be a good sport and remained the dig nye identified spate of conservatism. Its doubtful the watched laughin but had a fondses areness for all in family, archie bunker he noted is the greatest anticonservative ripoff in history of modern offenses you. Dont knee karl marx. You just neil archie bunker. Son buckley once acknowledgeds that anybody who wants to understand what is going on has to watch tv. The most bookish man i ever now, whether it at the chambers, watched television uninterruptedly from seven until 11 00 every night of his life. Yet buckley also note head coulds to watch tv and had no idea who joba the hut was, admitted to never watching professional football, and during his run for mayor of new york city, he was stumped by a reference to mickey mantle, all of which toy say buckler was neither unaware of the importance of mass culture, no are deeply plugged into it him. A devoteddalitiesman and hallways coloradoist. In a tv shoulder of songs from the school of music, heres the story, of a lovely lady, who was bringing up three very lovely girls. How audacious it was for buck lee buckley to choo an exert senior from a tv show for his theme song. He setted down watch a movie ton tv. Buckler loved the power to click from show to show and this family saw fit to slip a jar of Peanut Butter into his casket and also a remote control. Individual program. S were fleeting interests to the founder and editor of americas most important conservative journal of pin, a man who tack vacations with the craig Ronald Reagan in barbados, how to a peanut and butter sandwich could only be and traveled to switzerland to write a book, taking daily ski breaks with david never vein goodne have i in. Would have been odd i buck lee had written the idea of hosting a tv show, even a political one in his 1989 book on firing line buck lee says the idea for the show was pitched to him in 1965 by a young entrepreneur. Buckley was agreeable to the notion but deferred production until 18966 so he could complete his symbolic run for mayor of new york. Only in this novel of Ronald Reagan he reveals the firing line was the brainchild of tom oneill oneills company syndicated the show. And then buckley wents to pbs. Firing line was a 13episode series but ultimately ran for almost 1500 episodes. To understand how impress sis the numbers are consider that today a very Successful Program runs seven seasons to are total of 154 episodes. There were 635 episodes of the long running gun smoke and 456 enseed odd of law and order. Buckley claimed from the beginning perhaps with some pride that heirs ratings were exsignature guisse, which means scanty or meager. In fact, buckley would never turn a profit oregon firing line or National Review. These were laubors of love and ideological dedication. Buckley, the supreme free market capitalist observed that there are enterprise friday life that simply arent devicessed to generate profit. They do vital work. And as an art and sad row cat for excuse me firing line was not the only unprofitable Public Affairs type talk show on tv. There was also david suskinds and but firing line was the only specific live conservative example of some program. If firing line was unique as a public eight fairs program it did mirror the ethis tick of other Public Affairs describe shows. Buckley described i my Television Show was mod testily designed. No production value, explained one horrified tv executive. It was to say the least, not a goodlooking show. The carpeted dyas as drab, never veried and the guests were men in suit, legs crossed, socks, and pail white skin. The exemption, black power spokesman wear dashikis. Feminists in pant suits and occasional visual relief. One could count on the distraction of buckley others plannerrisms, his almost british accent, inclination to dart his tongue out like a lizard. Jeff greenfield, who emceed a Celebration Program photoed that television is said to be a visual medium. The only element of visual interest on firing line is whether mr. Buickley would some day warted buckley would some day part his hair with his tongue but viewers came for at the views and for the sheer noted of seeing an articulate conservative you would find you politics defended and challenges in 1964 richards have steader atruck beads right wing thinking to paranoia, intellectualism and status anxiety. Buckley seemed to be walking, talking proof of the insufficientty of the claim. And as if to drive the point home one whenever the earliest guests war barry gold earth, to men americans his defeat confirmed suskinds claim that the waning of extremism. Buck leaver wanted to show the world that conservatism is alive and well, and that paranoid conspiracy theirists of the John Birch Society variety. To truly understand firing line we must consider how buckley used the show to stake a claim for gold water and what then seemed a pipe dream. The possibility of a thriving conservative movement, purged of the conspiraciry theorists, extremists and kooks. Those folks who seem to have a stranglehold on american conservative of tim when firing line back number 1966. He would have to forge a new image of conservatism from scratch. Ill skip ahead to the chapter on civil rights and black power. In his first ten year once the layer, line line focuses on she civil rights and black power movements. As a right wing conservative buck lee was concerned about the kinds of systemic upheaval called for by boast approaches to the problem of racism. He did not oppose, for example, the elimination of racial discrimination, encourage. Of black percentage and economic empower. , the existence of integrated schools or the preferential treatment of blacks in hiring positions but did oppose most federal Government Intervention in these issues. Oning there to express his convictions about fish until his columns and books and quite another to deal with them the dialogue with advocates of civil rights and black power or on the other side with the advocates for the maintenance of the racist status quo. This is what makes firing line unique. On page he height have seen aligned with the segue degree gracessist Strom Thurmond on every issue and in person it was good conversation about racial issues with conservatives and liberals there many of the subtleties were reveals. Black power and civil rights leaders took advantage of the program as a venue in which to air their positions. One does get a subtle sense of the black radicals thought they were using his program to air ideas in full away from the sound bite culture of the media. Elsewhere their commend wood be edited. On ion line line that ha tout but with a white guy asking questions but they could express antiestablishment revolutioner in and marxist arguments that was usually only saw the light of day in underground newspapers. Given this context the radicallists avoided invective there was more selfrestraint here, the producer, a large blustery man with a per perpetually untucked in shirt. He so issued Allen Ginsburg by forbidding direy words that begins during complained he would have to censor his thought pat concern, and buckley suggestedded to cleaver that the ftc feed for cursing would cancel out his payment for appearing on the show. If there was any guest who did not need coaching how not to incur the rath of the ftr is kratz civil rights maverick james farmer, the very picture of decorporal in where does the decorum. In buckleymast arguments patients having the right to send their children to any school they want else i cleaned people depth discovering new rights and James Baldwin was west. Baldwin was too mess mystic about what could be accomplished in america. Farmer cut a striking fig, radiating dignity and composure defending baldwin and he tried to tamp down with each knew cigarette he lit. In his baritone, shades of james earl jones, he countered that theerns of negro ghetto ares form. Farmer, the fact of the matter is most of our victories legislative is spoken to south and not the north and the 17yearold dropout youth in a harlem street couldnt care his is if cousin in mississippi could buy a hot dog him said what about the rats that bite me. Buck lee why dont they kell the rats . A law you cant kill the rat . Im so tired of that argument. If have rads and put traps all over the place and still there. Never been able to get rid of them. Farmer e. in harlem if you kill oned two more come back too carry his carcuss away. Buck lee why dont that happen in other cities a superb refuge in harlem . Do away with refuge. Its a farmer when you have an entire family thats the states duty to remove the garbage. Buckley. Look, ironing notice suggesting demeanallizing the garbage collection. Farmer youre in favor of garbage collection . Buckley im in favor of social rights garbage. Everyone laughed, including farmer, and attention is briefly eased but buckley wont let go theres nothing special about the ghetto garbage problem. When farmer asked if rats had bitten his children buckley suggests hes being more dramatic. There are more refined moments in the program as when they discussion the nature goals of the civil righteds movement but their discussion of the rad problem in the ghetto is this most memorable part of show because buckley is so honest and yet so very cape incapable of those living in squalor, that the rat problem was worse in harm almost and stanford, connecticut, was. Plausible to him. But the time he knew it was on the show in 1973 the black panthers were struggle can, newton and cleaver had a falling out. Cleaver was in exile in algiera, several leaders has been killed, and the fbi infiltrated the organization and peninsula. Ed seed odd dissension. On firing line newton was all smiles and buck lee was flummoxed by his guest. At one point the host explained, im attempting to pin down a point and im losing track of it. And maybe that one of the difficulties you have ace chief spokesman for the black panther aparters your total incoherence, people dont understand what youre talking about. I dont understand what youre talking about. And im a very close listener. Newton talked in a cheerful steady dream of maoist propaganda. Finally buckley performed the line line line version of throwing in the towel. Her put down his clipboard, signaling he realizes the futility of attempt doing tame his guest. To viewersed in sympathy with newtons cause the it would not have seemed as incoherence as buckley found it. Knew to an would an of able revolutionary but those skeptical of the students radicals would have fount it confirmed with newtons performance, liberal firing line viewer in cambridge, massachusetts, wrote buckley i thought hughie nudititon made a die electric tick ass out of himself without any help from you. Theres no denying he laid down the revolutionary shtick with a heavy hand. This is one hover final firing line episodes to address the topic. Remarkably, many years later buck lee was acknowledge his change of thinking regarding federalism and voting rights. In 2004 he told time i believed with could evolve our way up from jim crow. Was wrong, federal intervention was necessary. The antiraces simple, prostates right advocate hat come around but by then almost everyone had at least in theory. The twilights years jesse helm was still maintaining the south choo have been left alone with its race problem. Buckley may have shifted his thoughts federal inintervention, and improving the lot of american blacks reached its apogee in the 60s and and 7s so the topic after race was left on the sideline in the 1980s in 1998 buckley had an interesting encounter with the aclu executive director ira glaser. He twists glycerose arms for year to appear on a debate tiled resolve the aclu is full on back lone in. Glaser thought it was a setup but he finally consented to appear. Glaser dug into the National Review archives to find questionable stuff buckley said about civil rights and read is on the show. Glaser described his old National Review material as unrespect anneable and says that buckley now ultimatum. Then buck lee was at dinner at the time Glaser Gasser said, well, pat, so many terrible things. You have to do something about that in private. Needless to say she did not. This was just Friendly Dinner Party banter. Off the air the director of the aclu and architect of the post war movement good at along. Glasser had taken buck lee buckley to his first baseball tim and imest sinned ininsisted to take the subway. Not buckleys limo. The price of advocating no holds bar tv debates was that sometimes you would lose, and your opponent would proffer you had at one point really been full of baloney. [applause] can i take some questions . [applause] can i take some questions . [inaudible] this is the best all ide ive had. Thank you for coming. Ery mome every single word. Ive loved this. Its been great. I cannot wait to finish the book which will be this weekend. Okay, gore vidal. Using the recent documentary,ns best of enemies, exactly. What did you think of it, andant particularly in the documentary and says that gore vidal knew that buckley wouldnt prepare for debate, such as it was. Is that true . And what was his preparation for the shows . I was raised on this show, and so what was his preparation on the show . That would be one question. The other question is, ive been told that dont know that english is not buckley is first language its actually spanish here is that true . And whats the source of that kind of cap glass a lovely way to put it. I will answer both of your questions. Best of any, i want to plug that movie. Te a terrific documentary. The last five minutes says a few things at the overreaching about this being the beginning of fox news. I dont think thats quite spot on but its a good film and thet do note and feel buckley did not prepare for First Encounter with gore vidal. No they were having a discussion at the democratic nationalat convention in 1968 and they payo them both handsomely to be on the show. Abc did. Before they were on the buckley would you do this, terry . He said okay. Said, they said is or anyone you wouldnt want to appear with . He said i would appear with anyone except gore vidal. Of course they send him gore vidal as a gotcha thing. They had several encounters andd the first one, buckley did and repair and gore vidal was over prepared. He practiced all this offthecuff quips. He scripted the hell out of this thing so usually very prepared. By the time that their secondase discussion buckley was much more prepared. At the end he lost his temper and he was forever mortified. That had been uncivil and use cuss words on television and so on. He did prepare for the second part. Preparation, he had a researcher at the National Review offers, and a few other people came in and out i ive seen the folders of research material. They would photocopy newspaper magazine articles, get background and so on so he had all of the easterlyfront of him and he would study the material in his limo on the way to show. Read the books written by the people on show shot. A voracious reader. Would would just read a book at the barber shop. He would prepare on the fly and do the show and get back is in limo and type the next editorial column in a special typing table in the limo in the back. So very wellprepared for the shows and you into eone of the charming things people have their note padded around him, yell low legal pads and maybe glasses and a clean nix and glass of water and cigarettes on the show and saw this clutter, sort of no production value, like this poorly designed. And you see him during an interview looking down and see this with the mailer clip, whats next, figuring it out. So, in an answer to your second question, its true that buckleys first language was spanish himself nanny was and he learn spanish first then english and french. He thought he was good in fringier but apparently it was awkward and weird. He was homeschooled and they lad a townhouse with all the kids. Eight of ten kid, and they would row row rotate from under toan under, english on one floor, and plate he was send 0 a british boarding school. His mother had a difficult pregnancy and they sent him away. He public up his british accent that never totally went away, and then there was a little bit of connecticut thrown in there. Its kind of amazing hodgepodge of language backgrounds he had, and his brother, james buckley, had a similar voice. Wasnt quite as distinctive and weird but a subtle, almost british inflection. People thought it was put on. He was like, this is how i talk he was interviewed on 60he minutes before reagan was sworn in and people asked him why he uses such big words, thats how i take, i talk to my dog that way. Precise words are sometimes the way to go. Your book is excellent. I really enjoyed it. One thing you say in the conclusion is that you think you said this as you talked about him there real is a void . The contemporary media landscape and could be a plies d a place for reprisal of firing line. Given that buckley help sort of mainstream and make the conservative moment palatable to the left and taking on liberal radicals. He helped people see that consecutive conservatives werent radicals. The and that aned a need in the conservative movement, but in 2016 it faced different challenges than the conservative moment then. So i wonder if there were to be a reprisal of in firing line, what it could do for theiv movement in terms of credibility i think in fact given in a new era theres a lot it could do. I agree. Its important to note thingsno are different now than the 60s, obviously. But we do have a resurgence of extremism, rightwing rhetoric and talk, the birthers and so on. Theres been a lot of i sometimes talk about the extremists as kind of like weeds in the garden. Buckley pulled them out and they come back again. Its a constant battle. Win the consecutive movement to deal their dimple movement to deal with the fringe right and on the liberal side theres fringe and its management thing. Hope there would be a space for this kind of civil discussion Oo Television today. There seems to be shows for everyone. Flipping houses, gardening, pets. Its such a subdivided marketplace of interests, and the thought that theres not one niche in there for sophisticated political discussion that is long form, not cut up with clips. Thats unthinkable. There has to be room for that. What i say in the conclusion that possibly this could be on hbo, which has a reputation for quality. Where the show was shot for many years. A play where a show wouldnt have to be interrupted by advertisements and people would just talk. I think its useful to imagineso what thats kind of could mean. What it could mean nor theat conservative mom is harder to speculate the conservative movement is harder to speculate. Its too son to tell what is h going to happen next for thean r conservative moment and the run the republican pared. Its at crossroads. There is a send that the Republican Party has been corrupted or is that not the answer . I dont have a crystal ball to predict that but if there were a venue of people who could talk to their ideas without shouting at each other and cut off his mic and all this overproduced, speck tick cal of shouting, that could am be helpful for the mom. I cant say in a direct cause and effect way it few fix the conservative movement. It wouldnt. Tv is not that powerful. Tv is helpful, though. The beginning of the show came on the hield of the end of vatican 2. He stuck to liberal religious figures because he wanted to debunk their ideas. Very concerned about political involvement of the church, and of course he was not thrilled about vatican ii. He found a the mass for latin for 30 honor 30 or 40 years. His own private service in latin. He had on reverend coffin,of reverend sloan yes, from yale, and to talk about what is the role of political activism . Should you be tending to peoples a souls instead of this political activities. That was an interesting discussion. Io but there were over the years not a huge number of catholics in agreement with him exempt for malcolm mugridge but they would have theologyic cal discussions and his representationship to the christian right he voiced a respect for what they were doing politically but i think and its i hypothesis he didnt get that kind of fought practice, this kind of faith practice, this loud seemed crude to him compared tot catholicism the way evangelicals were operating. The thought the things day were pushing for were right another but he had very few of this people on his show win they were really impacting theheconser conservative moment. In the 80s and 90s didnt care for pat or robertson. He did in theory. Knew him out of media sphere bu one of the interesting shows if with jerry falwell, where falwell comes only and speaks moderately howl he just wandses a liberal pluralityic society in which everyone can express their ideas. She said you seem very moderate here. And just acknowledging your spinning ourself for a mass audience but we know youre a radical die, and falwell would not acknowledged. So, one thing that is interesting how he wants allll this being political players on and yet when it comes to christian right, there kids are good but he doesnt welcome them on his shore. If you want to look at his faith its look at at thele malcolm mugridge. One of his favorite episodes was an episode with malcolm mugridgr that was shortened and run every year at christmas. Ma and then the debate with Ronald Reagan on the panama canal and the other favorite episode was interview with. Ive been very much looking forward to reading the boom room in society. I im from russia. My question is related to the making of the leader of conservative movement intellectually. What was so special about buckley that really help him garner the cloud of a sort of clout of sort of tran send accident figure that was transcendent figure that was if needed, cut aside the Birch Society and would always be there in terms of overlookinglog the movement, because as far as i see now, theres not a Single Person on the right with whom anybody everybody on the right would agree within five or seven minutes and that wasth different. Yeah. I wouldnt want to overstate that everyone agreed with buckley but he was very popular. There were always some people on the far right who was like, this guy is an elitist, between the yale, that more pop list side was mere opposed to him. He achieved almost consensus among the movement and its hard to say how that happened, the magic formula. He was unique. We wont have another buck lee what that funny. He had a fineopportunitiedfine sense humor that the conversation would turn serious and its not he would suddenly crack a joke but had a sensible that politics has a humorous side to it and that keeps us human and talking to the other side and that is something that seems quite lacking today. One of the very on firing lines hey groucho marx on. He hg he is very funny when he talks about humor ask thats adisastrous. He cut against any agrouchos a jokes. Fu aits like the worst godzilla movie you have ever seen. Im not sure how he did bit thew humor and i think also just being in a mass media era, this niche stratification of the actual tumor its hard to imagine one figure emerging as this key voice on television because we dont have three channels plus pbs. We have hundreds of channels so its harder to make a splash the media unless your dream and louf or crude, ratings grabbers. You and other [inaudible] hypothetical debate [ina [inaudible] so how you would say that part in that how he would manage that [inaudible] host at the president elect, you mean . Towards the end in talking about now their referencing that pick moment tech where buckley responded to Current Events but liked to look at the bigger picture, and so he unlike the news media cycle where wow have to respond to what happened that day, on thepe show he could bring in to someone to talk about what is the future of the conservative party, which is what he would be talking about now. Where republican goes and conservatives go and trying to conceptualize it, what we need. And i hypotheses in the book he would have an episode about whats like with outsider political candidates in which they would discuss how did this person come from out of the blue, wasnt a politician, wasnt elected president and they would have a couldnt send to all discussion what was conceptual discussion what was going on and sort it out. Now, as for president elect trump specifically, we dont have to speculate. He wrote an article in 2001 or 10 2009 or 10 about trump and jesse the body ventura, the wrestler and governor of minnesota. The article was called the demagogues are coming and he takes down trump and describes him as a demagogue and a narcissist. Es he was offended by him. Offended by the notion buckley was so proper. This notions propriety that thats person would run for Office Without qualification. So, i think he would have been very proud of the sense that National Review took throughout the election. They were one over first big players to come out against trump with a cover of National Review with yosemite sam, which of trump with the guns firing and just say no way. At the same time, the magazine had a place for conservatives that supported trump. Theyre official line was they did not support him but this magazine was always a spacee where different conservative points of view could sort of hash it out and not a ban on one perspective, and so i think he other would have been very blowed our the magazine negotiated in the days leading up to the election. What im seeing now is more kind of a theyre not there are theyre speck hitting lot polls and are won during what is going to happen with iran and sorting it out. Two question. One with respect to ratings and the eye was funding. We also know a little bit about the early stages of funding, but as a very long running show on t pbs, how involved was buckley and sort of continued Fund Offering the show when it was ob pbs and how did the ratings matter or not matter once he was on pbs. The ratings were up and down. Her said day were always poor. They were up and done a bit when he was syndicated. He was produced by rko initially before he guess to pbs in 1970 and the ratings were up and down in part because they it was clunky system. They were schedule him poorly. People who love the show were watching it every day at 8 00, and then suddenly removed to sunday morning. What . And actually they moved it to sunday morning right after it won its first emmy or only emmy and buckley wrote them a her, c what are you doing . You just moved to us sunday morning where every respectable person is in church or golfing. So he had to flee the syndication market to pbs where the ratings were less relevant. You can rise and fall in ratings. They werent selling advertising time. And one thing is interesting is you have this person who is this huge voice of the free market and has to leave the free market for his tv show to succeed, and he freely acknowledges some things you not for profit. And people say why do you do c this if doesnt make money. And he says do you think the Catholic Church should make money . In fact they are. But you can be in a nonprofit endeavour and it was worthy. Once he was an pbs he did as well as the other Public Affairs shows on pbs. So pbs never published showed heir ratings but they would hire nielsen to do numbers for. The, and then send the numbers out to their producers running the program, and he was doing okay. Which means on the low end the highest numbers for a pbs were sesame street, they wereor pbs really they had upstairs and downstairs and masterpiece theater and British Imports that were popular, and to buckleys chagrin, monte pythons flying circus did very well on pbs. Much better than firing line. Ll and pbs was thrilled because they had no young viewers except the toddler set from sesame street, and they were getting young male viewers watching monte python, and buck lee is, what is monte python . Beneath him to consider that this was a good tv show. And i actually say in the become he must have been so chagrined with market thatch at the pair diparodys the she said Something Like the little party is dead, dead liberal party, making fun of the dead parrot skit. He was like, what is she doing . So he got along of pbs and thenn when the Reagan Administration defunded pbs, and nixon trade to defund it and all pbs but when reagan defunded pbs, what is great is to read the letters that buckley send out to people raising money. He said, joy, reagan has defunds pbs. Now i need you to pay for it. And not surprise ily he was supporting the free market and capitalism and a lot of wealthy capitalits were, yes, heres some money to keep your show m going. So other private foundations and so on and so forthfunds the show over the years so he never he schad some ins and downs but base there was never a do you he two get the money he needed once it was defunded in the 80s so it soldiered on. Last question . In your preparation for and research on the book you must have read some of his books, and im sure a lot of them. Ar did you have enough favorites among those you thought sort of really got him . His other stuff. Where you felt like he was s really at he height of this powers. I believe i think its cruising speed. 72 or so. Thats a really fun one. Would recommend cruising speed. A love 0 lot of people like on making the mayor and i think its okay but cruising speed is a fun and interesting reed and he is at the peak of his power and renown and so on. Hes dealing with political issues but giving a sense of his lifestyle but not so much that, okay, okay, you have a limo and sailboat. Its not so heavy hand as some of the later books, and thats he talks about personalities like he went to a gay war with Truman Capote and just sort of comfortable with that. Probably cruising speed is one i would recommend. On that note, please join me in giving heather a warm thank you. [applause] [inaudible] discussion. This is booktv on chance cspan 2. Heres our primetime lineup for Christmas Eve im a little curious to know what the advantages are to americans living on these reservations rather than integrating with other urban societies and also the rights of the what are the differences between the races of American Indians versus all americans. What is the advantage of [inaudible] i mean, one question i get a lot i dont know if this is what you want to know why dont they leave . Thats at the heart of this question, and i think there are several reasons. The first is just we kind of naturally were we grew up in a place and its home and we know it as home. And the that may be more offer the case on these reservations because theyre such an extreme sense of isolation. Some of these reservations, you fly to rapid city, south dakota, and then drive 100 miles. Theres nothing around. Your gps doesnt work, your cell phone might not work, and this is one of the things i was just noticing because ive done a lot of research on families who live in inner citieses temp difference between viral urban poverty. In the south bronx if youre a child you see people in the middle class who get on the subway every day and go to jobs. If you are living on the pine ridge reservation, you may not have anyone in your immediate family with any kind of employment. You may not have anyone in your immediate family who is not having problem with drug or alcohol use. You may not have anybody who has a High School Education there are all of these suspect aspects of life that normal to most middle class americans that would see like life on another planet to some people in these communities. So the isolation is one part of it. In terms of the advantages, i think its not as if the people were living on these reservations would immediately say, november rapid city and find themselves move to rapid city and find themselves rolling in dough. Even if you had the wherewithal to leave the reservation you would still have an infear youre education so you would be trying get to yourself in into a work force and more opportunities for employment but you may not be very qualified for any of those opportunities because of the disadvantages you had up until that point. In terms of what rights that an interesting question. There are men americans who dont realize american sustains are american citizens. Thats a fundamental thing that when guy around talking to audiences, i think some of this talk you hear about tribal sovereignty actually has this impact on its audience where they think are you like a citizen of another country . Are you really part of the United States . American indians are american citizens and so as such they should have all these rights. In fact when you look at it i didnt get into this too much because this was mostly economics but the book gets into questions of the rights theyre being denied. For instance, freedom of the press on reservations is restricted. If the tribe does notice like what a local newspaper has written about some tribal law that has been passed or something theyve said about tribal legislators, they will ban or could ban the newspaper from being sold anywhere on the reservation. There have been just a Supreme Court case this year about the rights of people in tribal court, and there is a question about whether you have been granted due process in a tribal court. The association for defense lawyers in the United States has actually written several letters to congress complaining that people who have been accused in certain kinds of cases have not been granted the right to a lawyer, the right to a speedy trial. All of these things they take for granted in the rest of the course of the United States as a resident of an indian territory, you might be denied. And i think the biggest question im sorry to go on so lodge with your answer but i think for me one of the biggest questions about the rights being denied to indians has to do with the indian Child Welfare act, which actually gives tribes a say in custodial battles over children so in cases of divorce or death of parents or cases where an indian woman might get pregnant and might want to give her child up for adoption to another family, tribe could come in and say if youre a child who has a drop of indian blood, essentially in you, the tribe could say, no, we dont think you should be raid rates build white family members. We dont the a pregnant mother should be able to give her child up for adoption a white family. So a lot of these decisions are made deliveredly for aint chink differently for indian children than other races. This case are not being decided in the best interests of the child, which is the standard for any other case. Theyre being decided what are in the best interests of the tribe. So those are some of the rights that i think are really being aside from in the economic rights i was talking about, the Economic Freedom those are some of the rights that american sunsets have that a lot of American Indian does not. You can watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org