Transcripts For CSPAN2 Q A 20150407

Nelson. We can hopefully, talk about that later. And secondly he wanted a stronger military defense plank. He wanted the party, in effect, to repudiate Dwight Eisenhower eisenhower it was believed that Nelson Rockefeller and the wing of the party he represented had the clout to require this or at least to be taken seriously. We now know that by 1960 service that was probably not, not the case. It was a matter of perception. It was fed by what today we would call the mainstream media. Cspan and what did Richard Nixon and rockefeller think of each other . Guest its a complex they respected each other as rivals. There certainly were any number of occasions when i think each man tried the patience of the other. Oddly enough, during the Eisenhower Administration theyd been allies. They were both in some ways well, theres a wonderful letter. Rockefeller writes the day after the 56 election nelson writes, oddly enough to Richard Nixon. And he says thanks to you and the president , the Republican Party is emerging as the Great Liberal Party of the future. And in light of everything we know since then, that seems an odd thing to say. Except in 1956, you know people forget it wasnt Barry Goldwater that broke the solids out. It was Dwight Eisenhower. He carried almost 40 of the africanamerican vote and a majority of southern electors. So because the party turned to goldwater and then in effect on to nixon and reagan and gingrich, because the party took that turn in 1964 doesnt mean that that had to be the history. It could have been a very different history. Cspan on his own terms is the title of the book. Whered you get that . Guest in 35 years of writing books, this is the first time ive gotten a title that i wanted. Thats one thing that never changed. Cspan how old is he on the picture of the cover . Guest that would be in the early 60s so he would be in his mid 50s. On his own terms seemed to to me to sum up better than any other phrase nelsons approach to life, to politics, to women, to art. Even arguably to death. Quick story behind that, goes to the heart of who he was. Because it took me much of those 14 years to reach what i thought was an adequate understanding of this very elusive figure. He was incredibly close to his mother, Abby Aldridge rockefeller. And as i say she died in 1948. And id been told by someone close to him that he kept her ashes in the house. And Happy Rockefeller was kind enough to spend half a day with me and give me a tour both of the house, the big house and the house that he built for retirement nearby. And every rockefeller house is built on the same floor plan. On the right is mothers room, and on the left is fathers room. And sure enough many mothers room is a 15th century urn. And we were coming to the end of tour, and i thought, what have i got to live . And i realitied this story to mrs. Related this story to mrs. Rockefeller, and she said, oh, thats true. And i said, how could that be . There was a funeral x her ashes were interred. She said oh, nelson just reached in and grabbed a handful. Now, i dont know many people who would do that, and it tells me two things, two sides of his character. One, theres an almost childlike impulsiveness. He was utterly unselfconscious which is, i think makes him unique among rockefellers and probably unusual among most of us. But it also made him an incredible campaigner, streetlevel campaigner. But the other thing that it also suggests is a sense of entitlement that goes beyond the norm. How many of us would entertain for a moment the notion at such a time and place of possessing ones parent in that way. Theres on his own terms. He believed he should have life and i believe death, on his own terms. Cspan who picked out all of the quotes at the head of each chapter . Guest i did. Cspan why did you start, and ill read it with the prologue from Murray Kempton . Guest he was a highly respected journalist in new york. I guess you could say maybe a little left of center but of that generation. I mean, Jimmy Breslin i mean, first of all, new york was a newspaper town when Nelson Rockefeller went into politics in the 1950s. I dont know how many papers there were. Of course, most of them are gone. But, i mean, it was a newspaper town, and it generated great journalists who were, first of all, great reporters but secondly also in kemptons case, police call analysts. Cspan hes long gone. Guest yeah. Cspan it came down from rockefeller, those galleries a howl of hatred of a human being who embodied everything these people had hated for 20 years. He just stood there and began his prose in the armor of a magnificent contempt. Who cares what he said; it was what he was that night. Guest yeah. Cspan what night . Guest july 14 1964. The New York Times referred to it as bastille day in reverse. It was new york versus the rest of america. Not exactly a dispute thats gone away, i suppose. One that perhaps has been at least temporarily healed in the walk of 9 11. The fact in the wake of 9 11. The fact of the matter is the Republican Party, going back to 1912 when Theodore Roosevelt and William Howard taft split it asunder and t. R. Ran it a third party, progressive liberal we would call it republican campaign, throughout the 20th century there had been a divide. It was partly geographical,more ideological, it was substantive. The conservatives in the midwest, for example tended to be isolationistses in terms of foreign isolationistses in terms of foreign policy. The eastern liberals the eastern establishment tended to be internationalists, much more willing to get into world war ii before pearl harbor. They also, however, were divided about their reaction to the new deal. The eastern liberals were prepared to accommodate the changes, a much more active role for government. The conservatives west of the ap appalachias held out for a more hard shell view, if you will. Now, the liberals believed and this is critical Nelson Rockefeller, again, as i say, had no ideology. He believed first and foremost that a problem should be taken care of through the private sector. If the private sector couldnt or wouldnt then lets look for partnership with government. The idea being the eastern establishment believed, first of all, you needed a strong robust growing, private economy. Whatever it took. And government could be an agent of that. Thats an idea as old as alexander hamilton. But if you didnt have that strong robust private economy you couldnt pay for the compassion mate, you couldnt afford to do all of these social programs. So they put, they thought the horse before the cart. And they felt the new deal was acting in reverse. Cspan lets go to some video e from that convention in 1964 the year that they nominated barrly goldwater at Barry Goldwater at the Republican Convention. Feed on fear, hate and terror. They encourage disunity. You control the audience. These are people who have nothing in common with american. The Republican Party must repudiate these people. Guest extremism. [laughter] then as now, a topic much discussed. First of all, you have to have a little bit of context. That convention came one month after passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act which, its important to note, was passed with republican votes in both houses, but critically in the senate. And a bill that Nelson Rockefeller strongly supported. In fact, he wanted to go further. He wanted a Voting Rights act at the same time which, of course would come about a year later. Finish Barry Goldwater who it must be said had personally been a leader in desegregating not only his familys Department Store in phoenix, but the Arizona National guard, nevertheless, goldwater was of that rugged individualist school who feared federal coercion more than quite frankly, he championed the civil rights of africanamericans. Cspan did we see hate right there . Is that what were seeing . Guest yeah. We saw a generation it was hike a volcano that had built up. Like a volcano that had built up. Everything about new york that you hated, everything about the eastern establishment media which exercised a much greater centralized, dominant position. There is earlier in the evening Dwight Eisenhower, by accident, he had no idea. This was 30 years before ike declares culture wars. He mentioned in a throwaway line sensationseeking columnists who couldnt care less about the good of our party, and the place explodes. And there was famously a delegate, i think, in north dakota who stood up on a chair and yelled down with walter whitman. A few hours later there are republican delegates on the floor with shouting at rockefeller, you lousy lover. I mean, it was that intense. It was a culture war. Cspan what did that mean, by the way you lousy lover . Guest ing it was a reference that he had divorced his first wife and married a woman who in the popular press was portrayed as having, quote, abandoned her children in order to marry him. Cspan what were the suckers about the divorce the circumstances about the divorce can and the remarriage to Happy Rockefeller, and is whats her full name . Guest margaretafidler married to james murphy. Exactly when the relationship began is murky. I believe it began earlier than has been suggested until now cspan what does that mean . Guest the mid 1950s. Most accounts suggested the 1958 campaign when she worked in rockefellers gubernatorial campaign. But in any event the marriage one of the things i discovered in the course of researching this book was that a year went by, i mean, between when nelson wanted to announce a divorce and the actual announcement. There were people around him who even then there were people in 1958 who had talked him out of getting a divorce before he ran for governor. They argued that this would kill your political career before it gets off the ground. He reluctantly went along. But its very clear, certainly from then on, that left to his own devices, he intended to end his marriage to todd and if at all possible marry happy murphy. And the circumstances were treated remember, this is taylor and burton. Its a different culture. And, you know hollywood adulterers, you know, 10,000 people turned out for the World Premiere of cleopatra a month after the Rockefeller Murphy marriage, you know . They were celebrated. But for a politician and thats actually, thats an important part of nelsons unwitting legacy. The fact of the matter is, um, really beginning with his divorce and remarriage and spectacularly advancing the suckers surrounding his death the circumstances surrounding his death, the media took a whole different approach to distinguishing what was public and what was private. And we can argue over whether that has been good for democracy, but theres little doubt that he played a very significant role. Today i dont think the circumstances surrounding his divorce and remarriage would have nearly as great an impact. But you have to remember the Republican Party, you know, in 1962 63 64 was also a culturally, probably more conservative than the rest of the country. Jack kennedy great best line in the book i found in drew pearsons unpublished diary. He couldnt believe that rockefeller would risk everything by getting a divorce. He told kay graham no man would ever love love more than politics, which probably tells you more about him than anything else. But it does sum up the prevailing view. Cspan did you happen to ask Happy Rockefeller when you were with her for that half a day anything about the personal relationship . Guest yeah, she talked very candidly about it. I remember telling her something that bill scranton had said to me cspan who was bill scranton . Guest former governor of pennsylvania, recently deceasedment deceased. Close to rockefeller personally politically. Certainly because of his own main lane connections he knew both cspan and ran for president. Guest and ran in 64. He liked them both. He thought todd was very intelligent, he liked her, but he always thought that she and nelson were mismatched. I said, what do you mean . He said, well, you have to understand, nelson was a man more than most who needed warmth. He said dont make the mistake of automatically equating that with sex. Nelson needed warmth. And ive i understand exactly what he meant. And happy is a very warm woman. Happy could give him, really what todd couldnt. Thats a factor. The thing about that whole relationship that i think this book really breaks ground, and its only possible because of the passage of time, if you go back and you read coverage of the time and read coverage since, every single account of the rockefeller divorce and remarriage is couched in political terms. Its seen through the lens of what did this cost him, and why on earth, you know, did he take that risk . What no one has ever asked until now and, obviously, what i was interested in getting from Happy Rockefeller was forget politics for just a moment. What were the emotional compensations that nelson got that made him overlook whatever risks . She told me point black they never discuss can pointblank they never discussed the political consequences. I believe her. She also told me something very [laughter] very poignant and shrewd at the same time. She went to New Hampshire and campaigned in 64. She was in the early well no. In the not so early stages of a pregnancy. But she went to New Hampshire and percent most part people were for the most part people were very friendly. There were people who were anything but friendly. And she was standing on a church, the steps of a church and these women come up and say, oh mrs. Murphy, you havent brought your children with you today which is about as nasty as you can get. And she said she learned something at that moment. She said whenever someone says something horrible to you you counter with a compliment. And she said, she said [laughter] my, thats a lovely dress you have on. And it disarms it maybe even shames that may be too much to hope for but its an interesting observation. And it runs against the sort of popular notion that this was a woman who was, you know totally unversed in politics. Nelson rockefeller had enormous faith in her judgment, in her view of the man of the street. And i still believe, although she downgrades her role in this, i think she was a pivotal part of his decision to move on the abortion issue. New york repealed its old abortion laws, and when the Legislature Two years later moved to repeal the repeal under pressure from the church he vetoed that action. And the Supreme Court in roe v. Wade less than a year later used some of nelsons same arguments in upholding a womans right to choose. Cspan if i countered right counted right, he was married to Happy Rockefeller for half the time, 16 years, that he was married to todd. It was 32 years. How old would Happy Rockefeller be today . Guest happy would be 88. Cspan how many of all of his children are is still alive . Guest well, of course okay. He had five chirp by todd and five children by todd and two by happy. Of those eight, six are is still living. The oldest son, rodman born in 1932 died several years ago. And then, of course many years ago there was a tragedy, almost greek tragedy. It was like three days after they announced that they were separating that the word came from todays indonesia that michael rockefeller, the youngest son from his first marriage and the one everyone agrees to whom he was the closest and for whom he entertained the highest hopes was lost. Cspan how old was he . Guest michael would have been 22, 23. Cspan did anybody ever find out what happened to him . Guest no. And i think horrible as the experience was at the time, i think the family has been haunted to some degree exploited, but certainly haunted ever since by continual efforts to dredge this up to spin all sorts of horrific theories about how he may have died. Cspan you notice i havent asked you about the last chapter yet. Guest i do notice. Cspan lets go to 1968 where he makes an announcement in 1968 for president. Today i announce my act of candidacy for nomination by the Republican Party for the presidency of the united states. [applause] i shall do everything i can with all my energy now and in the weeks before the National Convention to bring before the people the dimensions of the problems as i see them and how i believe as a free people we can meet them. I believe firmly that true unity is forged by full examination of the facts and the free interchange of honest convictions. And, very simply by taking this course at this time, i feel i can best serve my country. [applause] cspan now, this is off the subject right there but its as i watched him reading, i go pack to the very go back to the very first thing you wrote, the very first two words in your book Nelson Rockefeller suffered from dyslexia. Guest thats right. By the way, he didnt know until he was 50 years old old. He went through his life of believing he had a low iq. That it was, in effect an intellectual deficiency. And so he took his mothers advice from a very early age which was always surround yourself with people who are smarter than you which helps to explain the task forces and the experts and the panoply of gurus who surrounded, who surrounded rockefeller. He couldnt spell, he was not a natural speaker from a text, but he compensated. He learned to compensate. He was extraordinary off the cuff. He was really one of the great, as i say street campaigners of all time. But put him in front of an audience with a text, and 68 is fascinating because, of course one month before he got into the race he wanted everyone to believe he was going to get into the race and then stunned everyone by announcing he wasnt running. Well, in between the number of things happened. Lyndon johnson pulled out of the race, Martin Luther king was assassinated. And, by the way one of the things i discovered, he was very close to dr. King. He had, he had come to the rescue of kings birmingham crusade financially when they were running out of bail money for the kids who were demonstrating in birmingham. And then, of course, tragically when dr. King was killed in april 1968 nelson called mrs. King and the followup was sent his advance men and organized and paid for dr. Kings funeral. Cspan when was that first known . Guest he didnt want it known. He said to the advance men who i talked with that we dont want to take advantage of the familys suring. Suffering. Cspan so when was it First Published . Guest when he died. There was a little story to that effect. The full story only comes out now. But the other critical thing that happened between during that month was on april 23rd he was smuggled with happy into the Johnson White house. I talked to the man who took him in and took him out cspan who was that . Guest larry temple, the head of the Johnson Foundation now. But young staffer then. And, of course, they wanted it all secret. Lbj wanted nelson to run for president. They had a very interesting relationship. Cspan [inaudible] guest well, no. He understood he wasnt going to change parties. Now later on after the Republican Convention Hubert Humphrey approached rockefeller about being his Vice President. He wanted humphrey wanted to run a national, in effect a coalition government, a Unity Campaign in that year when unity was hard to come by. Cspan by the way in your book you use a quote from Lyndon Johnson at the head of one of the chapters. You say rockefellers wife aint gonna let him get off the ground. Thats from 64. Guest yeah. Well, that was lbjs considered assessment of the political realities of the time. By the way, one thing that because its so funny, people always look for contemporary connections. And, you know, remember the Mississippi Republican race we just went through where senator cochran won improbably with the support of africanamerican voters who had reregistered. The great climactic epic battle of the 64 campaign was goldwater versus rockefeller one on one in california. Which in those days believe it or not, there was a poll that showed 70 of California Republicans considered themselves moderates or liberals. But in any event, it was the primary campaign to end all primary campaigns. And goldwater was way ahead. And stu spencer, the great political strategist from several campaigns including Ronald Reagans told me what almost turned it around were africanamerican voters mostly in los angeles. 55,000 of whom reregistered as republicans so they could vote in the republican primary more Nelson Rockefeller. That was indicative of the appeal that rockefeller had to minority americans. Cspan over for him in 68 . As a candidate . Guest it really was. Cspan when was it . Guest oh, im sorry, when . Well, the fact is when he pulled out in march, he got back in a month later. The problem was very simply, very quickly twofold. One, it was a conservative party that was moving further and further to the right. They were simply uncomfortable with Nelson Rockefellers positions. Secondly though was rockefellers own failure to understand the difference between running for the nomination and running in the fall. He always every time he ran for president he ran a november campaign. He ran a campaign reaching out to the general electorate. But its not the general electorate, its delegates who select a nominee. And the great line had he had an ironic sense of humor which he, for the most part, managed to control. But he couldnt resist. Someone asked him at the end of 68 after nixon was nominated, that night he had a press conference, and there was a young reporter who citing his resume and Everything Else said you know, why havent you been nominated for president given all of this your qualifications . And rockefeller looked at him, he said, young man have you ever been to a republican National Convention . It was like a question that answered itself. Cspan did you ever meet him . Guest i met them him three times in passing twice during the 68 campaign at campaign events, and then seven years later when i was an intern in the ford white house, i met the thenVice President. We had a 45 minute meeting with him. And i noticed how much older he looked. He was one of these people if you look at pictures, certainly e when he first ran for governor he looks very youthful. He looks a lot younger than 50, which is what he was in 1958. And then about 68 age really began to catch up with him, which is one reason why i think the later years were increasingly difficult. Cspan at the end of his life, how much money was he worth . Guest the estate was valued for taxation purposes i guess at something around 215 220 million. Cspan how much of that did he earn himself . [laughter] guest the bulk of it was in trusts 116 million in trusts from his father and grandfather. He the only time in his life he made money, oddly enough, was at the end of his life in an art reproduction business which horrified purists but which showed real promise. He started whats called the Nelson Rockefeller collection at a storefront in midtown manhattan and was selling reproductions of paintings and furniture and other objects d art that he owned. Cspan you mentioned civil rights and 1971, weve got some video and conversation between melson rockefeller Nelson Rockefeller and Richard Nixon but ive heard you say in the last 14 years that your attica chapter is maybe your best. Guest well, you know, its the one i think im proudest of. Because excuse me i think its first time, first of all, i had the benefit of perspective. Forty or years have gone by. We know things we didnt know. Its a different culture. For example cspan for example before you get there attica is what . Guest attica is a correctional facility in upstate new york east of rochester and buffalo which, like every other place in new york and indeed throughout the country was overcrowded, disproportionately populated by africanamericans, underfunded cspan and hes governor. Guest hes governor. Interestingly enough, he had brought in a man named russ oswald to run a new department the of contractions department of corrections. The idea being to begin to reform this antiquated system. But in 1971 new york state also was many a severe budget crunch. And the two priorities collided. But its hard to make people 40 years later understand immerse themselves in the culture of 1971. Not only the prison culture, not only the very real sense of grievance felt by prisoners and particularly africanamericans about the Justice System in its entirety but also a culture in which once the takeover occurred in september 1971, part of this was just fate. Rockefeller was out of state. He was in washington d. C. He was not part of that unfolding process as it took place the first day of the takeover. The critical decision that was not made the critical decision that russ oswald, in effect prevented from being made was using force at the time to immediately retake the prison. The fact is there was precedent for this in new york state. Herr berth lehman herr berth lehman was faced with an identical situation in a prison takeover, and he took the stance that rockefeller took but the state would not negotiate and eventually sent troops in and was acclaimed for it. Cspan how many hostages were there . Guest hundreds. And well no, im sorry. There were hundreds of prisoners involved, over a thousand prisoners involved, there were 43 who i died in the retaking of the prison cspan who retook it . Guest and 11 of those were security guards, the rest were prisoners. Cspan but who retook it . What kind of force . Guest let me just back up a bit because the criticism of rockefeller is directed twofold. The takeover, which was badly botched, and the argument was always made if rockefeller had been there if he had gone there, if hed been on the scene, at the very least he could have prevented things. Ien mean, he had representatives i mean, he had representatives who were there who were feeding him information and so on. The negotiations involved a number of outside, quote observers. Today it wouldnt happen. You wouldnt invite in people like william gunsler who clearly had a political agenda of his own to be a, quote outside observer. Cspan very liberal activist guest yeah, absolutely. Radical. Proud of it. Radical lawyer sort of in the Clarence Darrow tradition. Clarence darrow tradition. You would not invite tv cams rahs in cameras in to on to receiver all of this. I mean, it was just, you know, there were any number of judgmental errors that were made. Strategically, i think a strong case can be made that had there been force applied initially because part of, a part of the prison was retaken. But oswald believed oswald was a modernizer. He was a good guy, he thought he was a liberal, and he could negotiate. And it turned out he couldnt negotiate. Cspan lets listen to a little bit of this conversation between Richard Nixon who was in the white house 1971 guest yeah. Cspan and governor Nelson Rockefeller. Guest but the courage you showed in not granting amnesty, it was right, and i dont care what the hell the papers or anybody else says. I dont care what they say, i think you had to do it that way. Because if youd have granted amnesty in this case, it would have meant you would have had prisons in an uproar all over the country. Thats right. Its a tragedy that these fellas were so shot, but i just want to tell you, you made the right decision. El well, thank you, mr. President. I only called you because i wanted to alert you we were going in, and when we went in, we couldnt tell whether all 39 hostages would be killed and maybe 2 300 prisoners. The whole thing was led by blacks . Ill be darn asked, were all the prisoners blacks . I havent gotten that report, but i would have to say yes. We did it, though, only when they were in the process of murdering the guards or when they were attacking our people as they came in to get the guards. Had to do it. And otherwise we would have recaptured without shooting a shot, and no troop ors were wounded. One of them well, one of them was in the leg. Cspan what are you hearing . Guest in some ways its rockefeller at his worst. Hes doing what lots of people do, which is telling the president what he thinks he wants to hear. Back up just a bit. Am necessity, that he amnesty, that he talked about. And that became, in many ways the issue around which this revolved. The prisoners who had taken over the facility submitted a list of demands, various lists of demands. They included, among other things, the right to fly to a nonimperialist country. And am hesty. Amnesty. The latter was pretty quickly dismissed. But many of the demands by the way, were met, were prepared the observers got together spent a day, and they went through the list and most of the prisoner demands which by the way, were perfectly legitimate, i mean one of the problems with looking at attica is more most people then and for most people then and now it was the first time they were really exposed to just how horrible conditions were in those facilities. And then people conflated the horror of the facility with rockefellers refusal to go and then the botched retaking. What they overlooked was the matter to rockefeller the matter of principle which was amnesty. If you granted amnesty he believed or, for example, if he, the governor of new york, went to the prison, the first thing is they would demand that he come into the cell block, into the yard with them. And then youd be asking for the president , and what were the longterm consequences if government gave in . Cspan you notice we still havent talked about the haas chapter. [laughter] the last chapter. [laughter] we are going to. First of all, theres some video we found that shows how the rockefeller name lives on, and this has to do with some hiphop artists. [laughter] my mom went to prison in 1991. My mother 1991. Somehow my mama ends up serving a mandatory minimum sentence of 14 years. My mom gets out in 2002. Thats 11 years on a 14year sentence. That happened all across the hood. The rockefeller truck laws are unjust laws that have been on the books for over 30 years. Those laws take a nonviolent, firsttime offender and lock them up for a very long time. There are many people who are innocent of any real crime, just guilty of abusing themselves. Those people sometimes go to jail for up to 20 years. Cspan the rockefeller drug laws. Guest right. And theres no doubt thats part of the legacy. What you have to understand is, put it in the context, this is the dark side, if you will of rockefellers conviction that every problem had a solution. And that included drugs. He told a friend one day before these laws were introduced, you know i wasted a billion dollars trying to eliminate the drug courage. There drug scourge. There had been two separate rockefeller programs to attack drugs. Both of them failing. And so on the thursday on the third try he took this punitive approach. People gasped at the time. This sweeping, as you heard, i mean firsttomb offenders typically were sent up for 15 years and Law Enforcement was all but precluded from plea bargaining. So it was a drastic approach to a problem that appeared to be insoluble. The interesting thing is, i was talking to Lawrence Rockefeller the governors brother, before his death. And lawrence believed and i think theres truth to this if nelson had served a fifth term realizing that the third drug program had failed there would have been a fourth. He call it a strength, call it a weakness, he was incapable of acknowledging that there were problems that could not be solved. Or that he, that sometimes the only rational response was to do nothing. That budget that wasnt in his vocabulary. Cspan looking at chapter 26 guest yes. Cspan the head of the chapter, the title of the chapter is the day of the dead. Guest yeah cspan weve talked about this a lot, but how important is this chapter to this book based on what people expect . Guest well, its important in the sense that i know there are people who will look at it first whether out of [inaudible] there are people who will look at it to decide whether or not im honest, you know . Whether this is a book that stands the test of historical on the historical on jobbingtivity. Cspan why . Guest well, whether im part of the coverup in effect. I came to the conclusion that nelson historically significant aspect of Nelson Rockefellers death really is the coverup. That have improvised that was improvised that night by a man named hugh morrow who was rockefellers Communications Direct canner who thought at the time that he would protect the family from embarrassing revelations regarding the fact that rockefeller at the time of his death was with a woman not his wife. What morrow did, of course unintentionally and with the best of intentions produced the worst of results. This is a postwatergate world, and there are first rate reporters, people like Jimmy Breslin and Anna Quinn Lin and bob mcfadden who are out there investigating the discrepancies. And cracks appear. And morrow is forced to back off. And unfortunately it for a generation of americans sadly i think, it defineed Nelson Rockefeller. I had the advantage of again, time. 30plus years. I had the opportunity to talk to a number of people who were more candid than they had been in the past. But i also had the opportunity for example, i went through joe persico, he wrote a memory, he was a speech writer for rockefeller, recently deceased. Wonderful man and a great great writer a great scholar on world war ii, for example. Anyway, joe persico in his memoir which was published just after all of this clearly pulled his punches. And i think appropriately so. I mean, there are questions of taste and loyalty. Hed been, you know part of the rockefeller inner circle. But anyway i had an opportunity to go through all of joes notes. And i wasnt interested in peeping through the key hole either. Theres one historically significant question that these to be answered did nelson rock fell orer die needlessly that night . Could he will be saved . And i came to the conclusion, first of all what people dont know is that rockefeller was dying. He had very serious heart problems. He knew he was dying. He had acknowledged as much to members of his family days before he died. Its entirely possible he would have died that night wherever he was. Cspan so where was he . Guest he worked that day he had been putting his house in order in any number of ways. He was working on a series of art books, one of which was about to be published. Late in the around he left room 5600 which is the rockefeller office at the thenrca building. Went to the Buckley School for a fundraiser to be addressed by henry kissinger. His sons both attended the Buckley School. I talked to people who were there who noticed how gray he seemed and, in fact, you know he only drank due bonn nay dubonnay, and he asked for something stronger. He was clearly, he was clearly not well. Anyway he went home, had dinner. I talked to mrs. Rockefeller it must have been difficult for her to relive that evening but her view was he didnt want to die in front of his boys. He didnt want to drop dead at the apartment. Now, you have to remember his mother had died of a massive heart attack falling on a perfect weekend with her family. And nelson foresaw the same. Nelson thats the death he wanted. Enwhen i say death on when i say death on his own terms. She heard him pick up the phone and call Megan Marshack who had been working as head of a team on this series of books and who was cspan how old was she . Guest megan was 25 at the time. She lived in an apartment three doors down 54th street from the rockefeller townhouses. There are twin townhouses at 13 and 15 west 54th. So anyway thats where according to the story, they met, were working on this book. He had a heart attack, died instantly. It was reported that the police found him on the floor fully clothed, papers i mean all of the piece, that was the story that was given out to the press. Hugh morrow, for reasons that weve discussed, said that he was cspan his press spokesman. Guest his press spokesman. Said he was stricken at 5600. For whatever reason, claimed that he had no history of Heart Disease which is simply wrong. And, of course, literally there were press going to the rca building expecting a body to be brought down. And anyway, the thing, the whole thing unraveled over the weekend. The importance of that 35 years later is this that night, in my opinion, marked a transformation as great as the second night in the palace marked a travis formation transformation only this time instead of a Political Party it was the way journalists covered quote, the private lives of politicians. You can draw a line from january 26 1979, to gary hart and the Monkey Business and on Jim Mcgreevey and Anthony Weiner and, you know you name it. I believe that beginning with the New York Times and its important to know why the times did what they did i interviewed someone at the times who shall remain nameless, but someone al marshall who had been close to rockefeller who told me he had a call from the the times who said look you people have never lied to us before. You may have spun things but youve never lied. We are sufficiently outraged that we have five reporters working this story and were subjecting the 911 call to electronic analysis. And armed with that information and one other piece of information that i got from a confidential source suggesting that, you know, there was this missing hour between when the call was supposedly made and then when the story was put out cspan this was in january of 1979. Guest january of 1979 and the whole story sort of revolves around what happened during that hour. And it was strongly intimated to me that the call, the 911 call, it turned out was not made by Megan Marshack, but was made by a second woman who lived in megans building a very prominent journalist cspan did you talk to her . Guest i asked to talk to her, and she declined. Cspan did you talk to megan . Guest she also she didnt respond. Those are really the only two people. I did 150 interviews, and those are really the only two people who i asked to speak to who declined. Cspan you say there were three people that actually saw the body. Guest the third person by his own acknowledgment, was a man named joe. Finish he was the uber advance man, the ultimate fixer. He ran [inaudible] for nelson. Very competent man. His code name was little caesar. And he could be trusted to take care of anything. He told me in an interview before his death that he was one of three people who knew what happened that night. He wouldnt go into detail, but he dropped clues. I subsequently learned from friends of his that the story he had told over the years was, in fact, not true. In fact he told people, Close Friends in later years, that he himself had actually gone to 54th street as part of a kind of an emergency effort to clean up the scene and to redress the body. Cspan the body, you say was without clothes. Guest thats what i was told by the paramedic who was first on the scene. And here is the discrepancy cspan and by the way, you name him, jim guest jim peturus. Cspan still alive today. Guest absolutely. Had a distinguished career this medicine and associated with yale. Cspan was he there and one of the first other than those three guest yeah. And heres the remaining if you will mystery. Because theres a clear discrepancy between his account of what he found which i find completely credible, and the original story put out by the police. And the missing link just may be one other source who indicated there was a man, unfortunately deceased history professor named trumble higgins. Lifelong new yorker, who taught a class at John Jay College criminal justice, in new york. And one night two members of his class, two cops, offered him a ride home. And as they approached west 54th street, they began reminiscing about that night and suggesting that, in fact, they were called not to 13 west 54th street, but to 25 west 54th street and that, in fact, the former Vice President s remains were moved from 25 to 13. I dont know if thats true. I think it fits. But my approach to this is as a cold case. I think the historical significance, as i say, lies in the fact that based on what ive learned that us to have call question that i mentioned earlier, i believe Nelson Rockefeller died instantly. I dont believe he could have been save is saved. I dont think anyone was responsible that a evening willfully or be neglect for his death. And then the really only other historical significance and its lasting is its impact upon journalism. Cspan you quote Happy Rockefeller in the book heading up one of the sections once a small creature came into my world. He took the largest fortune in the world and decided to enjoy it. Guest yeah. [laughter] cspan did she say that to you . Guest yeah, she did. She did. Shes i understood, by the way, just in the course of the time i spent with her, much of what nelson founder recyst bl irresistible in this woman. Including a kind of wisdom, you know . Id point out she didnt go to college like lots of women of her class at that time. But shes a lifelong reader voracious reader especially of history and literature. But beyond that theres the street smarts. Theres an instinctive grasp of human motive, and you can understand why among other things nelson relied on her judgment of people. Cspan this book is 14 years in the making its on his own terms, is the title. And i want to, if you have something final to say, you certainly can but i want to finish this by showing a video clip of your first appearance on this network. Because youve had a tremendous impact on this network and for the public on history as youve helped guide us through these years. Here you are and, again let me mention its on his own terms the life of Nelson Rockefeller, Richard Norton smith. I do have to ask you youre on to a new city. Guest i am. Congress is in its second week at recess. Coming up on cspan2, we will bring you conversations with authors from our after words series. We will start with journalist april ryans book the presidency in black and white. April ryan recounts are over 25 year career in journalism and the president ial administration the president ial administration she is covered. Shes interviewed by Ann Compton Whitehorse correspondent for abc news. This is about one hour. Host april ryan i dont think anyone, any africanamerican reporter has covered the white house as long as you have and now you have taken the clinton bush 43 and obama years and written about them through the prism of something thats important to your listeners on american urban radio networks. John kennedy. John kennedy and Martin Luther king. This was growing up in baltimore. Host what was it . Did they kind of resent this newcomer . Guest they did resent this newcomer. He was an enigma really. He was someone who had tried unsuccessfully for a congressional seat against one of their fellow members, and theyre very loyal to one another in that group. Because they are a small group on the hill and theyre very loyal to one another, so that was one strike against him. The second strike was he was a senator. He was a black senator, something that really rarely happens in this country. And he also was on a different schedule than the house. The senate and the house weren on different schedules. So when the congressional black caucus, which is mostly house members, would meet, it was not on his time. So he would kind of ask if he could be placed in the front of the meeting to deliver his statements about what was going on in the senate, and many times they ignored him. And he was left to leave the meeting without presenting anything. And it was a lot of hard feelings there. Host do you think that talking about your time covering the white house, can you talk a little bit about how you explain in the book how you were treated as not only as an africanamerican or as a black reporter, but you were a woman reporter. There were still not a lot of women in the press corps. Lets start with those that first year when bill clintons second term and you arrive at the white house to cover theyre sitting in the Briefing Room every single day. Guest it was kind of rough because i replaced a gentleman who was iconic there. He was actually the first africanamerican to become the president of the White House Press corps bob ellison the late bob ellison whose shoes were so hard to fill. And when i came to the white house, many people resented the fact that it wasnt bob there anymore. And i can understand that because he had toured with so many of the veterans there. But also i think coming in and really pressing on urban and africanamerican issues which really wasnt done that much as much as i had, it rubbed people the wrong way because that wasnt on the agenda on a consistent basis, on a daily basis. And many people were wondering is she mill p about the, who is she, what is she . You know we havent seen her around washington, so shes a strange kid, you know . [laughter] who is she . And i got a little bit of that, and i got a lot of pushbackment pushbackment pushback. By me being such a new by, coming straight out of baltimore, really, there was a lot of pushback, and people were wondering, wait a minute how is she getting these interviews with president clinton, how is she getting this and is shes not in the pool . I got a lot of pushback for hit. Host lets break it down into three categories because you write about not only your interactions with other reporters and your interactions with president s but, of course press secretaries too. Talk about a couple of those moments. Start under the bush administration. Tony snow was a new, the new press secretary. What happened with the tarbaby comment . Guest oh, my gosh, the first day, the first day he came into the the press briefing, he was a rock star in chief when he came in. So many people were in that room i couldnt even get in my seat. And typically when youre in the white house, in the briefing area youre downstairs doing your work or upstairs doing your work, and then you have your designated seat, and you feel comfortable that okay i can ate wait until the last minute two minute warning and get my seat. Well, that wasnt the case. To my surprise, when i came upstairs, every seat was taken. It was standing room only. So i was on the right side of the Briefing Room against the wall, and there was a question posed to him by abcs martha raddatz, and he was explaining what was going on, and then he said im not going to hold or touch that tarbaby. And i kind can of sleeked kind of shrieked because that is something host that phrase. Guest that phrase was or very sensitive racially insensitive. Host its from an old brer rabbit guest brer rabbit, yes. And i actually have that book just to will be that this is what used to be, but it should not be. And i couldnt believe it. And when you think of a tarbaby, you think of the tar that the rabbit put together so the fox wouldnt find the rabbit. And i said okay. So then unfortunately, there was a reporter that was standing in front of me who turned to to me and told me, shut up, you tarbaby. And i couldnt believe it. So after that press briefing that first press briefing, i marched myself up to tony snows office, and he apologized. And from that moment on we struck up a really good relationship. He really apologized for his insensitivity. He didnt realize how insensitive it was and what it would spur. And to the credit of the white house correspondents association, i talked to mark smith who was the president to at the time, and he addressed the issue. And then i got an apology. But people really dont understand host got an apology guest from the reporter who did that. And people really dont understand how much what you say at that podium whatever happens at that podium reverberates. There are so many ripples that go beyond that room. It really affected me that day. Host the press briefing, you and i have covered the white house together for many years. Guest yes. Host i was with abc. And the press briefings were off camera largely up until about the time you came. Mike mccurry was the second term Clinton Press secretary and agreed to do it on camera, something i quote him as now regretting guest yes. Host and i p tend to agree with mike that the press briefings are supposed to be the raw ingredients of news, they arent supposed to be an event themselves. But you had a dustup well thats probably not the right word which struck me because i was there for it. Not just because not because you were an africanamerican reporter, but maybe because you were a woman and that was with robert gibbs. Guest yes. I think you might be right about the woman issue, the gender. It could be a little bit of race, and it could be also i think, because im specialty media, you know . Host get to the specialty media in a second. Tell us what happened guest it comes with this. The issue is that i am not a part of the mainstream, im not a part of the illustrious first and second row. Im specialty media that focuses on urban america, so how dare she. Thats the way i felt at that time, how dare she ask these questions . They were relevant questions. They were questions i was hearing from my sources inside and from outside of the white house. It was not a personality issue it was a real issue. But, unfortunately, what the cameras saw was the last day. They didnt really what people werent watching was the last day. They didnt see the culmination of the two days that crescendoed into that moment. Host this is after a couple apparently crashed the first obama state dinner. Guest yes. Host and the white house social secretary whos an africanamerican woman from chicago, friend of theirs, was taking the heat for dropping the ball on this. And you asked robert gibbs specifically about her role. But what, what was it he said to you . Guest he said something to the effect of i kept asking i was on a roll with questions to the extent of, calm down. I tell that to my son. And to equate me a grown woman who has children herself, to a child and theres nothing wrong with his son, but to equate me to a child, it was disrespectful. And he was angry at the time. And for people the believe that theres not retaliation when you ask the white house certain questions, it doesnt have to be this white house, it could be any white house, there is retaliation. And the retaliation was seep on television. Part of the retaliation was seen on television. And then afterwards, you know, i was fuming that day. I sat in my seat. Ill never forget once it was over i couldnt believe it. And at that time i was sitting on the fourth row on the end seat. And i couldnt believe what had happened. I just sat there. The next thing you know i see the doors to the Lower Press Office open, and it was bill burton. Host former gibbs deputy. Guest yes. Robert gibbs deputy press secretary. And he said, come here. I was like, no. And he was shocked. Unfortunately, im kind [laughter] as you know. I said, okay im coming. I just couldnt believe it. Im like, what did i do wrong . I asked legitimate questions. And what happened was in my mind and robert gibbs and i have weve come to a good understanding, we have a decent relationship now but to my understanding, there was loyalty there. Now, the Obama Administration was new, and they supported one another. And deathsly rogers and her dezly rogers and her family really supported this president , and they were loyal to this woman. There was a faux pas that caused a Security Breach at the white house. Host did you go up and see robert gibbs at that point . Guest i did. I did. And it was, it was a bad scene. There were other people, there was other there were other people in the room and i just, i remember gibbs telling me i owed the first lady an apology, and i owed desri rogers an apology. Guest im saying to myself, what did i do to deserve this craziness . Sometimes its rough and tumble there, and when you are someone that they perceive by yourself because i dont have the backing of, i dont have a lot of of the folks on the specialty issue to have my back to follow up on questions. So it felt like i was alone but to my surprise many of my correspondents, they were really supportive of me for the fact of saying that should not have happened that way. Guest ing i also questioned on other issues as well, mainstream issues. Of. Host how did you deal with that second group . Weve talked about press secretaries, your White House Press colleague, and i for years sat right down the row there you at abc and you write about asking a question at your first president ial News Conference and you said that after you asked that question, you were treated like media slime. Guest media slime. Host what happened . Guest noses were turned. I mean, this is a rough and tumble business and we are happy for one another but its like why not me . Why not me . Why didnt i get the question in and thats what host theyre asking why they didnt get guest yes. I mean ive heard the last couple of times ive gotten question from the president at the press conferences the last one at the end of the year and the one around summertime about africa. People are like, how did she get that . Why not . You get questions all the time. I very seldom get to ask ask questions in press conferences as much as others. But, you know, we are a group that finish were a hypersensitive group, and we all want to have that moment where we get that question. We want that question. How does she get it . Shes always getting it. So i think some of that was the problem, but also i was new. I was brand spanking new. And i worked hard host yeah, how did you get a question being brand new . [laughter] guest well, at time when i first came to the white house, it was more open than it is now. And you were there when it was much more open than what it is now. Host open in what sense . Guest we could walk around more, you would run into the president s more. I mean i was literally coming in from outside, and i had my coat on, and i walked into lower press, and there was at that time i dont think there was a door. Host this was the staff area. Guest staff area yes. I dont think that there was a door at the time that you could see people walking back and forth. So i just happened to be standing there and i asked if i could go to upper press host which is the press secretarys office, up a short hallway just outside the oval office. Guest just outside the oval office, yes. So i was headed to upper press to see the press secretary who happened to be at the time mike mccurry, and the secret service said youve got to go back, i said they just told me to come up. Not understanding what was going on. [laughter] my first encounter. So all of a sudden walking down the hall with a pretzel soft sour dough pretzel was president bill clinton. So he didnt know who i was at the time. I guess he thought i was a staffer or something and he was talking he just stopped in the hallway, and im standing there looking at him at the bottom of the step and aisle like okay, hes talking to the staff in the lower press area, and i introduced myself. I got myself together, and i introduced myself. And i said please call on me, sir. Host call on you guest at a press conference. And he said okay okay. So there was a press conference that immediately followed, and he didnt. But the next one he did. And i really, i said, well maybe it did work, just saying hello to him. And i said mike mccurry, thank you. And i sent a note host sent a note to finish. Guest sent a note to mike mccurry to tell the president thank you. And the president wrote me back on white house letterhead, and thats all she wrote. [laughter] host thats a good one writing a thank you note to the president for getting a question in and getting a letter back. Guest just common humanity. Host how in News Conferences you talk about that first question when you called yourself or considered yourself media slime. Was it the content of your question, or what was it that you felt and were reporters hostile to you . Guest i dont think, i dont think its content of the question. I just think immediate cra slime, a friendly adversarial relationship in that building, and the american public, to some extempt, they dont like us extent, they dont like us, and others do. So when we get classified negatives, i say were media slime. But it might have been for others that they didnt like that question. They may not have. But that was not for them to say because, once again, specialty media, were there focusing on one thing, and you may be focusing on another. And thats the greatness of having a group of people many that room. They can ask different questions. It should be moved around where they can ask different questions versus staying on the same subject host at the daily briefings. Guest daily briefings and the press conferences. Because theres more going on in the world than just one thing. Host met me ask you about a let me ask you about a bush 43, george w. Bush when he had a foreign visitor and you were seated not with the press corps . Guest i was not. Host where were you seated . Guest i was seated with the african delegation. And i found that very interesting. Host why . Guest it was a faux pas on their part host on the part of guest the white house. I was told after the fact that i should have been grateful. Yeah. Because i was in a seat to possibly be called on. And i really dont think host but you were sitting with other black reporters . Guest i was sitting with african reporters yeah. I have no problem with that, but i am a white house correspondent. Im an american journalist. And even it was so odd. I was placed here. President bush even noticed. During the News Conference he said why are you sitting over there, are you trying to get a question in and i said i was placed here. He kept can he at least acknowledged it at least three times during the press conference. And he even tried to point me out so that the president african president would at least call on me. [laughter] and even andy card, the chief of staff at the time after that said it was a bad move. It was a bad move. Host do you think president s regarded you differently than other reporters because you were black, because you represented a specific specialty media . Because you were a woman . Did it some ways work to your advantage . Guest i believe, yes it did work to my advantage but also it worked to my disadvantage because president clinton even told me this sometimes he didnt want to call on me because they didnt know what to expect there me. With other people they kind of knew the Current Events or what was going on, but they didnt know what to expect from me. So many times i wouldnt get called on. I figured if president clinton told me that, thats kind of a thought going down the line. And this was told to me during his time in office. So it worked to my advantage when they wanted to talk to the community, to the black community or urban commitment but it worked to my disadvantage because they didnt call on me for much because they didnt know where i was coming from. Its an interesting dynamic, doubleedged sword. Host in the book you write extensively about to put todays president s in an Historical Perspective of where Race Relations have come in the united states, and you make clear that theres still a ways to go. Selma, december 19 1964, this is before either of us were covering the white house the Civil Rights Act has become law, and now the focus is turning to the Voting Rights act. Guest yes. Host and Martin Luther king jr. Is in the white house urging president Lyndon Johnson to move on it. Guest yes. Host now, the film selma, that has come out has been criticized by some for putting Lyndon Johnson in a very bad light. You write about your conversation with the other person who was in the room guest yes. Host finish at that moment. Tell us about that. Guest in the book in black and white, i have an, collusive interview on exclusive interview on the record with ambassador andy young who was in the room with dr. King who talked to to lbj. Andrew young was not only a prominent figure in the Civil Rights Community but a former congressman from georgia. Guest yes. Host a former u. N. Ambassador. Guest yes. Host and someone who worked for, at that point was a relatively lowlevel white house staffer. Guest hes a very credible person. More than credible. He was in the room. And this is what i dont understand with all the theres a piece of it i dont understand about all of this back and forth about lbj and selma. Andy young says in this book that lbj did say that he didnt have the power to to push it forward. Were talking about the Voting Rights of 1964 after they successfully got the Civil Rights Act. So, and reverend Jesse Jackson said and this is something very interesting he said people like dr. King as a martyr but not a marcher. So strategically strategically these civil rights leaders had to figure out how to give him the power. So they worked it out, there were tactics. They had to work strategically to work to get the power for this president. What was that . To go down to alabama. And andy young talked about in the book specifically for this book in black and white, how three africanamericans in alabama could not be on the street together. It was against the laws there for three people to be in the street together in alabama. Host because that would lead, could be considered leading to a protest or demonstration. Guest yes. So they had to find a way to have a meeting to given the process for the marches. They met with boundton and they worked through it and had to strategically figure out how to present the situation so that lbj could have the power to push through the Voting Rights act. So this is actually someone who was in the room with dr. Martinnen luther king Martin Luther king also reverend Jesse Jackson who was one of his lieutenants on the record, in the book, talking about this. Host there are audio recordings guest yes. Host former secretary Joseph Carafano used the transcripts held at the Miller Center down at the university of virginia. So this should be a pretty well documented fact. Are you surprised at the kind of reaction that the movie has brought . Is it progress to finally have a movie that has turned out to be a commercial success . About the life of dr. Martin luther king . Guest well, i think the movie was magnificent. And when i say magnificent i mean it brought me to tears. I felt like i was in the black church somewhere. It was an amazing movie to see i mean, when you saw i knew when i saw the four little girls, i knew what was going to happen. Brought tears to my eyes and just talking about it brings tears to my eyes. Secretary of state, did she state, did she also feels she had a race portfolio . Guest secretary rice is in this book on the record and i think her for her truth. She said that she was there and brought to the table what needed to be brought to the table. Host what did she tell them . Guest when it was time to have anniversary events, she would tell them they must have it. Her father could not vote until 1952. Host she could cannot go to a restaurant until 1964. If it were not for this act no, we have to stop and celebrate. There was another controversial piece. The very beginning of the bush years there was president bush had decided to write a history. And he said it was about the university of michigan. Host affirmativeaction. Guest yes, he did not want preferential treatment in the admission process. So Condoleezza Rice at the Time National security adviser said to him, there needs to be talk