Transcripts For CSPAN2 Senate Hearing Examines Problem Of Visa Overstays 20170714

Driving and being in the driver seat of our own destiny by doing this act of civil disobedience. s in a knot at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Next, a hearing on visa overstates and the impact on National Security. Senate judiciary subcommittee on Border Security and immigration heard from Homeland Security officials and it Inspector General on some of the Pilot Programs using advanced technology to advance the issue. This hearing is 90 minutes. the subcommittee to order and thank all of our witnesses for being here with us today. We are eager to hear your contribution to the subject of our concerns, which is these that overstays. Most of the time when we talk about flaws of our immigration system, we talk about Border Security as it being the paramount concern and for me it is hurt obviously coming from texas with a 1200mile common border notwithstanding the great work being done by Border Patrol , it still remains a vulnerability and we are workinv hard to come up with some proposals that will help address that. The one vulnerability that seems to be overlooked is these overstays, people who enter our country legally and who overstay their visa and simply melt into the Great American landscape and as i think about it while i understand the desire of people coming from other countries frot perhaps to immigrate to the us because of economic or security conditions, its almost more offensive to me that people comi into our country legally and in spite of the courtesy and that we demonstrate to them by allowing them to come in temporarily the exploits that and take advantage of it and violate our immigration laws. There are a number reasons why people stay beyond this period of their visa. They may have family in the us or seek a better life and economic opportunity. Some seek refuge or asylum and others may, in fact, seek to be doing us harm. Whatever the reason, we had to take steps to stem the tide of these overstays and restore some order out of chaos when it comes to this law in our immigration system. Border security as i indicated is more than submitting people to the us. It starts with identifying the right people before they leave their own country to come to the us knowing what they are here and ensuring that they the party when the terms of their visa expires. I was pleased, continue to be pleased by the news of the apprehensions along the southern border. While we have this strange idea that the fewer people disdained is actually a sign of success i guess we have a common belief that represents fewer people trying to make it across and thus the only indicator we really have, but to me it is some indication, a deterrent works when the messages sent that either people will be detained at the border when they come across or otherwise by Law Enforcement if they commit crimes in our country it is clear to me that the president s executive orders and that enforcement policies of the department of Homeland Security under justice are having an impact in deterrence, but we havent seen the same drop in these overstays. Most overstays bank on the fact no one will even be looking for them because of lack of enforcement and no real network or system to comprehensively identify people who overstay their visa and invite them to return home after their visa expires, so they could stay until the us until they become eligible for some sort of benefit merely to passage of time. The two dhs overstay reports from 20152016 reveal how big the problem is. In 2216 more than 700,000 aliens estate in the us passed their authorized time, 700,000th and while that may seem like a relatively small number compared to the millions of foreign nationals a come to the us every year, it is still a significant number, a magnitude of the problem cannot be overstated. Of those who come to the us illegally on legal visas, but our intent to do harm count on the fact they can easily overstay their visa and blend into the fabric of a american society. Lets not forget one of the wors terrorist attacks on us soil, 911 was carried out by 19 hijackers, five of whom were these overstays. Prior administrations have not made peace overstay enforcement a priority or devout recesses resources to get the job done, but President Trump, secretary kelly and john sassoons have said it will be an priority and for me that is what news, but it doesnt end there are congress has a job to do as well. We need to eliminate some of the incentives for people to overstay. This includes making a clear in the law that if you deliberately overstay your visa, you wont be eligible for any immigration benefit in the future ever. Finally, we need a complete Biometric Exit Program in place, something we have been talkingth about the entire time i have been here in the senate through the us visitor program. H the u. No effective way to date of determining when people exit especially if they leave at land ports through lan ports of entry, but i Hope Technology will provide us additional tools to do that, but we need an effective Biometric Exit Program in place no matter how people come and go whether by eric, sea or land ports of entry, so i hope to hear today about theso progress i. C. E. And cbp had made to better track these overstays and with that let me turn to the Ranking Member member for any opening comments. Eq, mr. Chairman. Experts estimate more than 40 t of the more than 11 million undocumented immigrants in our country overstay their visas. They came to the us for a variety of reasons with visas to visit, go to school, work with the understanding they would save for a time certain and they were stayed. One of those i met whose name was teresa lee. She came here on a visitors visa, overstate and became the first dreamer person who inspired me to put in the dream act to 16 years ago. One little thing to add, teresa was two years old when she was brought in on a visitors visa and did not realize how much later in life that her mom did not file the right papers and she was here illegally, so some that are culpable, im sure and made a decision to overstay and see what happens. There are many that may be innocent and as we categorize people lets be mindful of the fact that there are people in different circumstances recently for the second year in a row but apart of Homeland Security released a report estimating the number of these overstays in the Previous Year finding in fiscal year 2016 more than 739,000 people overstay their visas in the us. This tells us that an obsession with building a big beautiful wall wont come close to solving our immigration challenges, doesnt even address the issue of overstays. Even if we build a wall across the entire southern border at the cost of 70 billion or whatever hundreds of thousands of people who come to the country legally would still overstay their visas. We cant talk about these overstays without considering the reality of teresa lee who i mentioned earlier and others who came here years ago, have made a life, started a family, become pillars in the community, all of those are should not be treated the same as those who made a conscious effort to deceive the federal government. Its clear we cant fix our broken immigration system on a piecemeal basis, so a few years ago a group of us got together, socalled gang of eight and sent down for six months, decided to write a comprehensive bipartisan Immigration Reform bill. We send it to the floor of the senate after going through lengthy hearings in the site Judiciary Committee and entertained hundreds of amendments and then we brought it to the floor for a vote in the past 6832, comprehensive Immigration Reform in 2013. Unfortunately, many republicans didnt support it and at theub republican in the house of representatives refused to consider it when we sent it their. Let me tell you what the bill did would have done when it came to peace overstays. We required electronic tracking of these overstays and it wasnt an Unfunded Mandate with no teeth. The bill would have appropriateu minds of dollars to implement electronic tracking of visas and at the insistence of my republican colleagues in the gang of eight we would have required an integrated electronic exit system to be ine use at every International Air and seaport in the country before undocumented immigrants could obtain lawful permanent residence under the bill. This trigger would have forced those who support a path to citizenship to ensure electronic tracking of overstays actually came to pass. We were not soft on this issue. We were tough and put money minor toughness. Critically, our bill also would have addressed other components of the broken immigration system , dedicating billions of dollars to strengthen Border Security including funding for additional technology, fencing and Border Patrol agents, reducing the job magnet for undocumented immigrants and create new avenues for legal immigration, provide a tough but fair path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants who dont pose any threat to our nation and who would go to the back of the line. Only a cooperative plan like this can secure our border and nation and remain true to our heritage is as a of immigrants. Its why im ready to work again on a bipartisan basin to fix this broken immigration system and it ought to start in thean subcommittee. Its refreshing at least today we are talking about a real problem instead of obsessing about vulnerable refugees whoroi come to the us, the mostto carefully vetted investigated visitors of all those who come to our shores. S. I strongly support legislation providing up to a billion dollars for dhs biometric tracking. Especial fees increased on outsourcing companies that take jobs in america. This provision was based onn Bipartisan Legislation that senator grassley and i have cosponsored four years, butar theres more congress can do by considering the Visa Waiver Program. We had 38 nations that we allowed to send our visitors to the us without a visa. According to the recent dhs report in fiscal year 2016, more than 147,000 travelers who entered that country using the Visa Waiver Program overstate as well, 20 Million People from these 38 nations travel to america every year under the Visa Waiver Program. Thats a third of all the visitors to the us. These people coming without a visa to the us at american airports without undergoing any biometric checks were counselor interviews. Charis miceli, the 20 hi jack or, 911 cusses conspirator try to enter the us through the Visa Waiver Program so did the shoe bomber, every persists pursuit held a passport from a visa waiver country, each could have traveled to the us withouti a visa. If we are concerned about protecting americas securityout why dont we strengthen the Visa Waiver Program that accounts for 20 Million People coming to this country each year. How about strengthening this program by requiring biometric checks of travelers before they reach america, so we know who they are before they get on the airplane and congress should close the loophole that lets people who enter the us through the Visa Waiver Program to buy guns here in this country even assault weapons even if they arn on the fbi terrorist watchlist. Think about that person can. K does that make any sense . Es to it continues to amaze me that we havent had a single hearing in this immigration the subcommittee on President Trumps travel bans and changes to our immigration system and just in his first week of president he signed multiple immigration executive orders that have riled our nation to keep his campaign promise. The Supreme Court of the us has found the time to consider the president s travel man. The subcommittee has not appeared during the previous and ministration republican majority conducted sustained multiple oversight hearings of the executive Branch Immigration policies of president obama. I hope this subcommittee would be just as vigorous when it comes to the Trump Administration, not yet. Finally went to know im disappointed the Trump Administration decided not to send a witness from the state department for this hearing. The state department plays a Critical Role in subcommittee would have benefited from that testimony. Thank you. I would have to acknowledge your longstanding efforts in this regard even though you and i have differences on whats attainable and whats not. I had come to the conclusion that a conference of Immigration Reform bill is not possible and i know that its a disappointing to you and others. Unfortunately, our philosophy has been we what everything or nothing and we end up getting nothing in my view, so im happy to try to work with you where we can to try to address some of the issues you have addressed and while there is a lot of other topics we could talk aboue on the subcommittee i think this is certainly worthwhile. At this point, chairman grassley, chairman of the full committee has asked his full statement be included in the record and it will be done so without objection. If i could ask the witness is pleased to stand and i will administer the oath. Grazier righthand. Do you affirm the testimony youre about to get before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god . Od . Thank you. Please have a seat. We will start with you tried pouring go down the line to mr. Mr. Wagner, mr. Brody and mr. Ross. Please give us your Opening Statement in about five minutesv or so and then im sure we will have a lot of question. German corpsmen, Ranking Member german and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear today to discuss a work in process at the department ofo Homeland Security to identify, report and address overstays. Some 50 million nonimmigrant visitors enter the us each year. They enter for business, to study, see family or vacation. The us welcomes visitors while recognizing that its imperative they depart the country when their visas or authorized admission expires. Inability to identify foreign nationals who overstay their visas is important for numerous reasons, chief among them we need to determine whether or not individuals pose a threat to National Security or to publicse safety and we need to protect that integrity of ourr immigration system by removing those who are present in violation of law. I have used my time to focus on the fiscal year 2016 entry exit overstay report and his steps that we are taking to address the findings in the report. As you know dhs released the 16 overstate report may hurt its the second such report issued in over 20 years and contains important data not available in the fy 15 a version. The 15 report covered Visa Waiver Program for visitor favor. The 16 has included for his students, Exchange Visitors and other classes of nam nonimmigrants. Y to add this is the result of investments made by the department to expand datat of collection and analytical capabilities. The 16 report reflects that nearly 99 of and scope nonimmigrant visitors to part of the us on time and abide by thea terms of their admission. Despite this high level of compliance five visitors to our country and unacceptable number of individuals overstay their visas or periods of authorized eight, approximately 39000 them were calculated to have overstate by the end of fiscal year 16. We ran the numbers again in july and by our calculations 426,000 of those nonimmigrant visitors are still here and in an unlawful status or clearly, overstays are significant problem. To get a better understanding of the challenge presented dhs has to continue to make improvements to its of the structure and to its architecture so agents and other operators have rapid access to the highest quality data available. We have undertaken a number of systems enhancements to enforce immigration overstate enforcement by aligning or requirements across our system to support exchange and operational use of immigration travel or data. We have also been working on identifying National Security overstays through increased collaboration with the Intelligence Community and finally we are automating processes currently done by hand. Dhs is addressing the areas for improvement identified from the office of Inspector General in his recent report. In particular, the dhs office of chief immigration informationn officer is building Enterprise Information sharing platform to medicate many issues identified in the report. It will provide analysts, admission operators with near realtime access to consolidate Homeland Security data and classified and unclassified environment in a manner consistent with law, policy and privacy requirements. Dhs has to implement biometric exits and increase the quality and availability of overstay data while implementation of a robust and efficient biometric exit solution will take time and poses challenges, dhs is aggressively identifying the development of a conference ofoi biometric exit system for air,t land and sea. This conforms with longstanding congressional intent and is a priority for the in menstruation as well. Dhs also acknowledges and appreciates the support that congress has given it and that this committee has given in favor of implementing the system. D in the as stated in the president s executive orders the need to enhance a vetting and to identify individuals who seek to enter the us on a fraudulent basis is a priority as is the concern that those who overstate or otherwise violate the terms of their visa might pose threats to National Security and Public Safety. Dhs will continue to work hard with his Partner Agencies to clearly with the Department State to address the problemstm presented by overstays. Dhs will seek out Innovative Solutions and work with governments of countries whose travelers overstate at high rates. Gh because they need to be held accountable as partner countries. Ranking thank you for this opportunity to testify today on this important issue and i look forward to your questions. Mr. Doherty, forgive me, of course you are the assistant secretary for border immigration and trade policy and no stranger to this committee, having served as legislative counsel forer senator john kyle of arizona and of coarse staff member of the subcommittee on Terrorism Technology and Homeland Security let me briefly also introduce our other members, Inspector General of the department of homeland to gary john roth, confirmed in march 6, 2014. Served most recently as record of the office of criminal investigation of the fda and nominated to lead the dhs office of Inspector General byin president obama. Mr. Wagner is dave beattie executive commission of Field Operations of the us custom and Border Protection since 2014 and hes been assigned to the us customs and Border Protection of headquarters in dc since 99 and worked on numerous policy issues mr. Rodi is the Deputy Assistant director of Homeland Security investigations within the National Security Investigations Division and Homeland Security investigations. We appreciate, again, all of you being here. Let me turn to you mr. Wagner for your Opening Statement. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the customs and protection work on the report. Let me start with overstay report. This accounts for 96 of all air and sea nonimmigrant admissions for fiscal year 2016 at our air and a few locations expanding the report to include additional categories of visitors such as foreign students, Exchange Visitors and a certain worker classification. Last fiscal year there were approximately 50. 4 million inn scope nonimmigrant admission through the air and sea location who works rectitude of our end of this number we calculated a total overstay rate at approximately 1. 47 , which is about 739,000 individuals. At either the fiscal year when the report was compiled thereea remained about 620,000 of these visitors still in the us. Due to continuing to partners that number is currently at about 425,000 today, which is about. 84 of the total. These figures are generated using cbp arrival and departure Information System where we use our travel data and commercial carrier manifest to identify potential overstays. Its correlated against other dhs systems to limit individuals who have received extensions andve remain lawfully in the us. The overstay list is then run through our automated targeting system applying i. C. E. Criteria and the information is provided to i. C. E. Daily. Additional. [bell ringing] adding biometrics to this process will provide greater validation of the data in this committee is family with the many challenges we have discussed in developing a reasonable biometric solution as well as the pilots we conducted over the years and i recognize your frustration with our pace of this and recognize congress has made up to a billion dollars available over the next decade to support funding in implementing this program. We are out of time and out of excuses, so the good news is we have figured out a feasible solution. Gu we had extension extensive discussion with experts and stakeholders to ensure our solution is easy for travelers and avoid another independent stovepipe process utilizing existing Airport Infrastructure and can be compatible with existing airline businessib practices and most importantly it uses data already provided to the us government. The biggest factor in our struggle to find a solution is relying too much on finding a single piece of technology that would magically solve the problem. In previous efforts that never took a conference a look at reengineering the processesa behind how our data systems function, so we figured out a way to better position the data we have on travelers, which is photographs to make this inspection process more efficient. In nontechnical terms we have moved to the photographs we have on travelers from their passports and visas in advance of the flight we move it out of the main database containing about a billion photographs and stages it in a single database based on that manifests. By doing this when the person goes to board the plane, we can take their picture and only search the pictures on that manifests rather than against the billion photographs that reside in the database making a quick, simple and efficient and you dont have to actually reado the passport first to do this. All the other systems around th world you have to read the travel document first. Thats time, infrastructure and complexity that we can skip by doing this. We put this to test in atlanta with a flight with Delta Airlines and positioned the photographs in the gallery. We compared a live photograph of the person boarding and created a biometric record of the departure, so this validated our concept on how to use the data and did not slow down the boarding of the plane. That with the boarding process in operation model of how the airline boards their passengers. Its easy for travelers to use. Everyone knows how to take a picture, so we process about 35000 travelers through this demonstration over the last 11 months with a matching rate of about 98 of travelers we have photographs on, so we had extensive discussions with the air travel industry. R at this summer we rolled out a directional demonstrations of this capability in addition to the delta flight in atlanta where you have a single flight, we use this on dulles, chicago and houston with additional locations to come the summer and we are also working with jetblue in boston on using the same process, not only for biometricc exit, but the purposes of replacing the bait paper boarding pass with the same picture taken of the person taken by us. We are working closing with Delta Airlines on similar issues, so theres a great opportunity to complete the biometric exit requirement and to support airline and airport modernization efforts so we are all aligned in a single vision. My final point is that while facial recognition will be used, we will collect fingerprints from foreign nationals upon initial encounters and both biometrics will be infused in the fingerprint results returned by match in the photo associated, so we get the same vetting results, just a quicker point to the same data. Thank you and i look forward to your questions. Mr. Rodi. Members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to talk to you today on how i. C. E. Homeland security investigations and a skate and to highlight the improvements that is implemented. The counterterrorism and criminal Terrorism Unit focuses on identifying and prioritizing enforcement efforts on overstays who remain in the country and pose a securing. On a daily basis there are a pet potentially 3000 overstay leads. Hsi visitor Information Systemnn and from other referrals on foreign nationals who may have overstayed or otherwise violated the terms of admission to the us. The leads received undergo both an automated and manual vettingg process based on prioritized riskbased framework. It then creates the packages including all available information, which are sent tot hsi field offices nationwide for further investigation. Her in the vetting process is designed to detect and identify individuals exhibiting at specific risk factors based on intelligence reporting, travel patterns and indepth criminal research analysis. To further support this process hsi chaired a Advisory Panel comprised of subject Matter Experts from other Law Enforcement agencies and members of aletters community to assist in maintaining targeted methods in accordance with the most current threat information. It convenes quarterly to discuss developments and update the target framework in order to consistently focused targeting efforts on overstays and status violators who pose the greatest security National Security. Fiscal year 16, hsi reviewed approximately 1. 2 million un validated overstay leads. Humorous leads were closed through the vetting process through subsequent departures in the us, change in status and are pending immigration benefits. Ee those that did not meet the threat criteria were referred to i. C. E. For further action of fiscal year 2016 overstay leads remain within hsi per view, party 160 lead packages were sent to hsi field offices for further investigation and of those leads as of june 30, of this year hsi special agents have made six tend 1622 arrests. Those not located are cycled back into monitoring for further research as new information isse revealed and i would like to state we sent out 1000 more leads this fiscal year then were sent out in the entire fiscal year 2016. Additionally, hsi is committed to improving and advancing our capabilities as technology progresses. Overstay enforcement is no exception. I would like to take a moment to highlight to recent Pilot Programs in our efforts to improve our it systems. First, our overstay lifecycle pilot is in effort to assure l continuous vetting the last year hsi started tracking nonimmigrant visitors who filed these applications and Visa Security Programs from the time they applied through their departure from the us. This continues review last hsi to take swift action should derogatory information be uncovered at any point in the visa lifecycle. Or second, hsi implemented the domestic mantis program to identify nonimmigrant students who enter the us to study in a nonsensitive Academic Field and who subsequently transferred to a sensitive Academic Field or who attempt to work in areas that has a securing concern to national safety. Hsi has been a partner in improving the data interfaces between dhs systems to refine our ability to identify overstays and through modernization and lead tracking we advance dhs information sharing and expediting overstay vetting. The number of ongoing initiatives streamlining and enhancing systems to provide person centric rather than event specific data allowing us to better prioritize our cases before concluding let me emphasize how seriously we take the recommendations of reviews. When the latest report came outh immediate action was taken in response to the concerns raised about Field Training overstay investigation. The overstay handbook and guidance were redistributed to all hsi field offices and agents providing detailed instructions on how to conduct overstay investigations including what systems to check and furthermore hsi has invigorated training efforts to ensure all agents and officers are quick to efficiently investigate these leads. One such training rest lesson had occurred in three more are scheduled for this fiscal year. Thank you for giving me the opportunity of explaining hsis Critical Role in the process. Mr. Roth. Members of the subcommittee, thank you for inviting me today to testify and discuss our work relating to these overstays including our most recentresu report. As a result of our audit revealed dhs Information Technology systems dont effectively support i. C. E. Visa tracking operated station. First, identifying and investigate potential these overstays requires pulling data from dozens of systems and databases, some of which are not integrated or electronically share information. This is necessary because four different dhs components, i. C. E. , cbp in the National Protection Program Director as well as numerous entities outside of dhs are all involved in managing the overstay issue. Much of the doubt is not stored and easily retrievable. As an illustration of the it system involved i. C. E. Investigators need to retain up to 40 different passwords, each with different access restrictions and expiration dates. Second, access to Realtime Data is hampered by System Access restrictions. I. C. E. Personnel are sometimes unable to gain access to systems despite having the need to do so some data is retained in paperbased files, which can take considerable time to access and some systems are not frequently updated. Third, i. C. E. Personnel does not have training and guidance they need to effectively identify and utilize the numerous systems used for visa overstay trackingf i. C. E. Personnel in the field or not i was sure which assistance to use. Personnel we met with multiple locations expressed concern that they were unaware of the systems available to them across dhs components and agencies potentially limiting their effectiveness in carrying out their visa tracking responsibilities. In the absence of a comprehensive biometric exit system at us ports dhs relies on thirdparty data such as passenger list from airlines fri which is not always accurate and fails to capture land departure data which accounts for the vast majority of visitors leaving these deficiencies have a significant realworld impact including a backlog of 1. 2 million visa overstay cases. Inability to estimate with any degree of confidence the number of individuals actually overstaying, which results in a poor understanding of the problem in the reporting. Considerable resources are wasted investigating thousands of leads that could of been ruled as not leads such as individuals who have already left or received immigration benefits. In fact we found hsi agents spent 40 of the caseload investigating individuals they should not investigate largely because they were in compliance with the law or had already left. Part of the problem, the department has historically done a poor job of requiring it integration resulting in a fragmented system. The dhs chief Information Officer should provide greater oversight in centralized management of dhs id systems. Its been a longstanding issue that we have repeatedly reported on. Em additionally, the chief Information Officer must provide adequate training and guidance to personnel in the field about how to properly use current data systems. Finally, cbp must continue to work on moving forward on the biometric entry exit system assisting in streamlining efforts of investigation. We made five recommendations in a report for which we believe will assist in making the process more efficient. Pleased to report the department has agreed with each recommendation and is implementing corrective action. We will monitor the progress of the department and make reports as needed. We intend to audit the departments efforts, implement the pilot Biometric Exit Program you are described today. This concludes my testimony and i would be happy to answer any questions you or members of the committee may have. Thanks to all of you for that. I will start out with fiveminute round questions, but i wonder if anyone can give me their best estimate of how may people are currently in the country overstaying their visa in violation of our immigration laws. Can anyone come up with a round number estimate . Sir, the 40 rate that senator durbin referenced earlier is one as you know that we have mentioned for a long time. Thank you. I know the 40 im just wondering 40 of what is what im trying to get my head around and mr. Wagner, some of the statistics we havent talked about that are contained in written testimony and elsewhere, this is just for land and sea ports; correct . We dont have reliable figures from imports of entry or exit . Commercial. Is for commercial air and commercial seat, but most land entry and exits are populations out of scope of the collection biometrics, actually small fraction we would even track on biometric exit. I appreciate the good workod you have been able to do in the good news frankly, in terms of g airports and seaports, but to me that seems like a huge gaping hole in our data. Thats what happened that land ports and frankly, coming from a state with 1200 miles of common border and about 5 million jobs dependent on financial trade with mexico, we want to make sure we continue to have legitimate commerce and travel between our countries because its good for both of our economies, but we have to come up with perhaps some of these Technology Solutions you are working on whether its facial recognition or the like that ultimately will help us identify people as they leave the country and enter the country so that wi have a reliable figure. I know that is something you continue to work on, but frankly , in the years i have been in the senate since we havent talked about implementation of the us visitve program this has been a matter of policy by the us government, but we have never quite seemed to get the solution where it needs to be. Just to put it some more meat on the bone here. There are about 50 some odd million visitors to the country of your and about 8 million of those to the best of my estimate come in across land ports of entry and so that gives us some idea of the hole in our data in terms of the overall scope of the problem. Im aware that some countries when his students come study, for example in their countries they require the student to produce evidence of Financial Support so they dont become a burden on the host country. They may even require them to produce Health Insurance to demonstrate that they wont be a burden again on the Healthcare System of the host country and they will require them to check in on a periodic basis to make sure they maintain their current status as a legitimate visitor. What things do we do in the United States or what things might we do to help address this problem because my senses we really dont do it unless someone commits a crime anddy comes in contact with a criminal justice system. Thats probably the only time we catch people who overstay their visa and even there we have saudi cooperation and everyone is familiar with the idea of sanctuary cities in some locations that decided they would not cooperate with federal Law Enforcement, so i would be interested to hear from you what mechanisms do we do do we need to put in place . For example, how about more frequent chickens in the us for visas for longer than six months. With that help . There was some press recently about the department of Homeland Security look at the potential to determine whether or not students need to be checked every year to make sure thatif they are in a status. In other words, they are in fact attending classes and the sort of remaining in that student status. As you know from the numbers in the back of this report for then student visas, the noncompliance is remarkably rather high, so that is a thing thats being considered by the department. Is not a policy at best point as no decisions have been made. The ability of the department to keep up track of folks without impeding trade, travel and as t you know the overwhelming number of people coming here are leaving on time. If we can do more to cover that in our capability knowing where people are we will take reasonable looks at that and we also want to be conscious of peoples privacy concerns and also we want to be conscious of what the cost would be and how it might inhibit it our travel and trade. I do agree with senator durbin that the idea of wiese visa waiver countries is another whole issue, but in order to comply with Visa Waiver Programs they have to have a very low rate of overseas is my understanding as part of that criteria by which both countries qualify, but it is a vulnerability. Senator durbin. Mr. Doherty, if you check on student visas is it a requirement that a student on visa to notify our government if they change address crime x or, my understanding is that its a requirement of the school you attend that there is an officer there responsible for notifying dhs that you are still in status im asking about change of address or residents. I apologize, sir, i dont know the answer. The point im getting to is when i think back of all the apartments i stayed in and moved in and out of there could be a technical violation of a real student and i guess thats a concern i have going in. I understand, sir. Thats one of the things as i said earlier all these systems need to be pragmatic and reflect reality. Students move around, they are young and a lot of them in terms of when you think about overstays they may not take it as seriously as other peopleouss might, but you want a system that is easy to use. Immigration system initially i think was supposed to be that kind of system. I guess what im asking, when thats a sensible, you know you are student that just did notify the fact that my landlord evicted me and i have to move to a new place and they did not send the notice in on time. A technical violation i hope it would not affect the student visa at. How about this aspect of visa waiver countries. 38 countries where if you just hold their passport you could come into the us for up to 90da days without going through getting a visa to do so and i think someone came up with a number of 140,000 overstays among those. I dont know if that number is correct. s director, did you mention that . About 147,000. And thats a group of 20000ti Visa Waiver Program visitors 20 million Visa Waiver Program visitors feature to the us and then another 30 million coming in with visas for a variety of Different Reasons and you think the overstay rate there is closer to 739,000 . Is that out of the 30 million . That includes both categories the visa waiver rates is lower than that visa holder overall. We are talking 50 million visitors, some with visas and some without and making sure they leave when they said they are supposed to. Thats really our challenge; correct . And i think we are trying mr. Roth, i will turn to you now weve been out this a long time, havent we . Talking about how to track thesh folks. Correct, biometrics biometric exit requirement has been a lot for quite some time, but we are still in the pilot phase of the process. How long have we been in the pilot phase . Senator tiller says since kitty hawk. How long have we been out this . Its a requirement by law, but off the top of my head i cant remember when the law was enacted. It was the department responsibility and only recently has it become a cbp responsibility and our receptionist cbp is moving forward expeditiously and we will be auditing what their Pilot Program looks like, so we will report back exactly whether or not we have that. Im advised the us visit law passed in 1996, so a matter of us policy since then. 21 years. We are still working on it. Let me ask you this, mr. Roth. I went to the back to President Trumps executive orders on travel, which is controversial, but senator duckworth and i sent a letter requesting independent investigation into the implementation i dhs of President Trumps executive order. The Inspector General subsequently opened an investigation. Can you tell me the status . We are done with most of our fieldwork. Process of drafting the report my best guess well have that out by september. It could. Initially it was created to give 90 days to establish that extreme putting but now were in that sixth month notice seven countries . So it is interesting to see what happened. Biometric requirement on visagh waiver of visitors. Ric requ understanding that whatever quiet we put on visa waiver countries, understandable. I have to have my picture taken, you are explaining that process. Is this feasible, recommended, to have those in the Visa Waiver Program submit some biometric information before they arrived in this country . I think as with bill at this facial recognition capability thats one of the things were going to take unders consideration and see what usability or utility there could be. Its going to be unconfirmed information because we were sitting at directly from a person. Theres some doubt of what you can do with it to reaffirm later on if thats the same person. You granted that authorization to. Let us work on it a little bit as we build out the biometric exit facial recognition capability, and i think we will find out how we can implement. Just worried you might put in the Pilot Program. [laughing]g] thank you. Thanks to all of you. Senator tillis. Thanks, mr. Chair. Gentlemen, thank you for being here. I did want to say that senator durbin touched on some points that happen to agree with engines of aspects of immigration that it will not bring up your butt we have a little bit of a hairball here in terms of our visa programs. Sa pr weve got serious issues with h1b, h2b, i could go down the list. With a mismatch of resources out there. We got people making arbitrary decisions about who can come in and fill jobs and are shutting down industries. Thats not the subject of this committee but does speak to the broader issue of his coming up with irrational modernized b predictable system. Now, i think this may be question for you, mr. Rodi, has the methodology change for calculating these overstays between fy 15fy 16, to your knowledge . I think a little more sophisticated in the sense were able in Additional Data sets. Din more accurate or more sophisticated . Lets see. When we are able to get more, obviously what kind look at the entire population is coming atit us whatever their visa status which is why at the en end of te if we have our biometric pilot finished we would be at a place where we would see those land entries as well and the exits as with the intention, and is fairly new for the department to have the capability, again we had no that issued one of these reports in 20 years. It was done last year at aes course of dunnigan this year. The intention is to get a full view, the methodology remainst very manual and hard to do. Its a lot of work to produce these numbers. We want to get past that. Of the 426,000 number you all mentioned, are those in country overstays recs i think you gave it estimate that the 2017 estimates som somewhere, was a 426,000, did i hear you say that in your Opening Statement or in response to one of the questions . Yes, sir. I believe that was in my opening. Those are overstays . That is our conclusion. Just for the benefit of others can you describe the difference between in country and out of country overstays . When you are and how to coach overstay your someone who spoke to left at a particular time. You didnt but then you left, and encourage overseas is you are supposed to have left and you didnt leap if you are still here. Mr. Wagner, the discussion about the wall. I happen to be in the camp that thinks its not a good idea to say we dont need borders, we need bridges because theres Homeland Security threat that needs to be dealt with. Im also not in the camp that says we need a structure that goes from the pacific to the gulf of mexico that can be seen from outer space. Mainly because many of your colleagues have said that would not be the best way to secure the border as to provide for their own personal security, the Border Patrol agents down there. This is more of the statement. I have a related question. It seems to me when were talking about the people, technology and infrastructure to secure the border, a lot of the technology and infrastructure could be directed towards the land ports were people are coming in and stepping up resources and capabilities in those borders. You believe, are you one of the people who think we ought to build a wall from outer space but you think that money may bee better spent to secure the border and know whos here and when theyre coming and going maybe the use of pts . What i will say is were worn the same facial recognition plan for the land border as well to look at arrivals and departurese and a similar approach using the facial recognition do you agree thats part and parcel to an effort to secure the border . I mean, that provides an element of Border Security because we have a better, more accurate picture of his coming across the border and used a leading when youre supposed to . . Yes. Okay. This is about a year or two ago when we had i think a hearing on, i heard from number of airlines at least at the time their concern with the destruction and the troubles because a number of International Flights are comingled with domestic flights and otani get the header about how they ca could do this withot it being kind of an Unfunded Mandate other part. He is this pilot getting yall to a point, sounds like it may be easier for boarding so there could be a nagging or wash area. Are you getting a sense the Elijah Cummings closer to embracing some of the strategies you are testing . I think thats exactly a we build a process that could complement what the airlines are also doing. Like we saw with jetblue wanting to automate the boarding pass in the boarding process using facial recognition. Why dont we combine our efforts and just take one picture of the person and confirm with the datm we have. The airline tells us is expected on flickr we have a photo such a search against that. We confirmed that, confirm biometric exit for the same time, confirm the airline the person boards. You as a travel dont have to go through a multiple goblet of cameras or processes to do this. Hopefully will set up by the point implementation in charlotte sometime soon. 90 mr. Chair. Senator blumenthal. Thank you, mr. Chairman and thank you for holding this hearing, which addresses a critical important topic. For our whole nation. And sorted for anyone thinking about how to improve our immigration system. I take it all of you would agree with me that the lack of a biometric exit system is a gaping hole, a really deepening threat to our National Security . Sir, if i can venture an answer to that. Which is a little bit off the bubble but i would like to express that we talked about comprehensive Immigration Reform as we moved engineering, and one of the things that makes it very difficult to really do anything including to feel good aboutud your National Security is knowing who has, and who is left. Without those two things you cannot have a guest worker program. That is viable turkey have great difficulty in being open to foreign nationals who want to come here to study or to just enjoy the country. And in terms of the security dimension of it as well it does constitute a problem. If you cant count people in education of them out you dont have integrity in your system. Uncoated count that as a yes. And say further that we can pass all the great loss in the world but if we dont know who is coming into the country and who is leaving, they are all for not, correct . You are shaking the writer let the record indicates show that indicates agreement. Let me go on, as every testimony the number of overstays went from 739,478 individuals to 425,495 individuals as between 20162017, is that correct . O yes, sir thats correct. What accounts for the drop . He believed. Thats basically how it goes. What information is put together for this report is advised is n favor of assuming the person is still here unlawfully unless we know better. When you see people leave, and i apologize for interrupting you, but have limited time come you say people leave. What is the reason that they leave at a greater rate and 2017 versus 2016 . Is a youre doing or is it Climate Change or whatever . I think this report concluded in fy 16, if you go around the clock and around the counter until today until july, those are the folks that remain. We expected 700 some thousand to go in 16 because thats how long they were entitled to remain. Then we come round to this point of time in the year july 1 and thats how many actually have a main passed the time the reportt terminated. So that is an explanation of the numbers but not an explanation of the reduced rate of overstay. Im just wondering whether it is because people who are over stayers somehow are fearful they will be apprehended or whether there is a deterrent impact of all this talk about abuse of the system or whether its just that there some kind of statistical quirk. And maybe rather than pressure on it now, you can get back to us about it. Yes, sir. The other area i want to explore is i note that theplore overstay rate is greater for the nonVisa Waiver Program. Visa w correct . And why is that . I think that many of the countries that are within the Visa Waiver Program come as you know there to meet certain standards of information sharing. They also have to have a low nonimmigrant refusal rate, excuse me, not immigrant visa refusal rate. If, for example, country acts came to you for nationals want to come to United States in 25 of them said no, i think your actually an attending immigrant and that is a metric that comes out of the consulate experience, and so we basically dont of those people into the vwp. Eople. The countries whose nationals are essentially compliant on the types of people that make visa waiver partners. They intend to be more reliable in terms of staying only as long as they have a visa . Thats correct, yes, sir. Forgive me if theres an obvious answer to this question, but we have these numbers on how many people have overstayed. Do you also have numbers, maybe i missed them in your report, on how long those overstays are a meeting or average . Up in other words, is it a couple days, weeks, a year . Do you have any number 70 the severity of their overstay . I dont believe we chop the data that we do we would be happy to review on it. I would appreciate it. Heres another, maybe theres an obvious answer. You have the numbers on people have overstayed. Those are just numbers, not identities. Do you also the list of those people . Tho in other words, in the computer that produces these numbers, you also have names, dates of arrival, and apparent nondepartures and last known address and all of that information. I believe thats true but i would have do validate that comes her. Could you check that because otherwise i dont know how you would know what the numbers are . You must know specific individuals who have not left, and thats the way the numbers i am just reading some comments. That would have to be correct. Whether or not we maintained a list is a question that it will have answer to at this time. And finally if you would give me just another question, mr. Chairman . In your testimony you make reference to overstay enforcement, and you say that you prioritize violators im coding may pose a National Security or Public Safety risk come into court. I can imagine what those factor might be, proxy to tell us whatb they are. And hate to ask another sort of question that may have an obvious answer. If you know there are risks now, why would be why were they allowed into the country . Ountry . I would defer to hsi on answering those enforcement questions for interior. Sir, we have an internal. Organization scheme that we used to prioritize potential National Security concerns and or concerns for National Securityty as well as concern for Public Safety. It doesnt mean the person is necessarily a threat, but by her own internal prioritization scheme as a look at the whole list of overstays a potential overstays that we receive, we have to be cut we have limited resources we have to come up with the pride towards asian scheme as to who may pose those types of risk for us prioritization we have a r sliding scale of what we considered to be a concern. I dont want use the word threat because we dont know if there are threat until we do the investigation. So those are then subsequently scrubbed at their assistance or an automated process first and then it goes into a manuall proc process where we determinene whether not a person meets that criteria and delete is generated for further investigation by the field. I stand you dont want to use the word risk or rather you dont want to use the word threat picky would rather use the word concern, that mr. Dougherty uses the word risk in his testimony so i take it that is a little bit more than i concern. And if you could provide as because i dont want to take more time, im already way above my time, and the chairman has been very gracious as he always is. But if you can get back to us with an analysis of what come of how determine what the concern or the risk is come with the factors are come what the criteria, how you apply them. You may have done it already in your testimony but i apologize that i havent seen it. Yes, sir, actually we can get back to you with that. Thanks a lot. N thanks, mr. Chairman. Gentleman, if i can ask for your help to summarize what i think weve heard so far. Roughly 739,000 visa overstays from land and sea ports, but no record of these overstays from landbased ports of entry were approximately 8,000,00 8 millioe have come into the country overf a years time. So lets say 70 739,000 land and sea ports. We know that the 9 11 attack was committed, 19 out of the hijackers, five of the hijackers were overseas. Sure that anyone who overstays ias a National Security threat, to your point, mr. Rodi, but just so we can understand, how do you identify those 739,000 to people, to senator blumenthal said. . What we need to do in order to make sure we enforcing the terms of their visa and entry into the country and exit on a timely basis . My precious, mr. Rodi, maybe you want to take this question my impression we will not do that unless lexi for example, commit an offense and get arrested. That would be one way to identify yourself as a visa we overstay, right . Im very glad you asked that question and one of the things were doing to address that issue is linking and embedding programs where both on the front and to our Visa Security Program and on the back in to our overstay embedding program. T so linking the two programs together an overarching Lifecycle Program were looking to at the fun in when the person is vetted when they apply for aa visa, if they make it to that and subsequent into the United States, continuously vetting them while theyre visiting, then it could potentially become an overstay how would you do that . There are various Database Systems as well as social media. They will be continuously vetted through the entire visit here v and then if they subsequent become an overstay we will be ahead of the game so to speak. W we will know about them in advance. At the process was intimated inc a pilot basis at two locations. We intend in the future to expand that program to other visas but thats the wave of the future price and i would be a better way for us to track it. I dont want to minimize what you just said because its important and we need tojust sai recognize progress but at thert same time i dont think people, we need to understand what the numbers mean. That wouldnt include visa waiver. Thats all for people who have applied for a visa at a consulate overseas for the come to the United States, and its good you are taking steps tot monitor them. What would cause them to be removed from the United States . What would you have to see in this Monitoring Program to remove them . Certainly if theres derogatory information developed as a result of their time in the United States we would send out a lead as a priority one. Something that would make that person removable, there would have to be derogatory information that would indicate that if a person is a definite threat to the u. S. Or has committed some sort of crime while they are here visiting. Absent that though, if theres only information as to the intention of the person over stickam for example, in a pilot with people talking social be saying things such as i may become finally on here. Im not going back, or intend to get a job that i intend to stay. Now we have indicated that person will probably overstay so we are ahead of the game when they do. We cant take action on thats only because the is talking about they intend to never leave the United States it at least theyre on our radar so when they do violate their terms of admission we can take action. Is a more likely than not that its someone will not come to the attention of immigration authorities and less they are arrested and charged with a crime . Is that the most commonly that they are identified . Thats the most common way, yes. And so you get a visa from some of the country and you come to the United States, you overstay, as long as you dont commit a crime, chances are youre going to be able to melt into the Great American landscape and stay. Is that a fair statement, mr. Roth . Yes. When you look at the numbers involved, i says limited resources. For example, theres about 10,000 referrals make i. C. E. Investigators across the country. What we found is 40 of that 10,000 were actually not overstays at all either that already left the country or that got in some sort of immigration benefit. Already we are down of 6000 cases per year, even assuming youre successful at every oneho of the 6000 cases. When you compared against the 425,000 actual overstays a year, its just going to be a tiny fraction of the people who actually get some sort of enforcement action against the. This is i think important because when those people hear about discussion of local municipalities, cities not cooperating, not recognizing detainers from i. C. E. To hold somebody who is illegal in the United States, they choose not to cooperate as a quote sanctuary city, that is an impediment to enforcing our immigration laws. I think people sometimes are confused about what that really means. But this further facilitates people who overstay their visas in violation of our laws and who are able to escape removal when the term other visa expires. It like it at a couple of points which i think which will clarify both of your questions. So all of the arrivals, land, sea and air going to our arrival departure Information System. With that we also capture their authorized time of admission so theres a taker under file to win that admission is up, we have the expected departures folder. At that point in time they are now marked as an overstay. If we dont have a departurere record the daily departure record we consistently going to have is their commercial air and sea carriers which are provided to us. If we do not have that departure record, they go into, we suspect they are still in country as an overstay can we run that susan targeting analysis provided to i. C. E. Every day. If the person does depart the United States and we get a confirmed departure now, we marked up off of the system and they go to the out of country overstay box. We cancel the visa waiver travel. We can work with states to counsel the visa. Theyrthe subject of barter reid we advise i. C. E. That person has left the country. Now all throughout the process our National Targeting Center also takes the entire visa database from department ofke state and all of the authorizations that we issue for visa waiver travel to the esta program and we run continues betting on this. So if theres any new National Security information, the names added to watchlist, that comes in and we run it against the thesis and esta every day. So if we get a hit for a match on one first thing we look at is, is a person still in the country are to be think out of the country . In the follow up with i. C. E. Or the fbi or other Law Enforcement to take appropriate action. So any nationals could you risk will be addressed in that way but that goes on continuous, or any other derogatory information appears we work with state department to have it visa been canceled. T with thousands of visas revoked per year, thousands of esta revoked for you. Its not a onetime betting and you are approved and there is no monitoring of your approval to travel here and visit. Thank you for the clarification. Im going to turn to senator flake in a moment but one last point. So i appreciate what youve told us about monitoring the overstays, and so the federal government has a record of the people who entered and land and sea ports and love overstayedorn their visa and have overstay. But how many people love overstayed actually physical removed for that reason on an annual basis, would you say, mr. Rodi . Just for visa overstay although. The statistics that are provided from our sister component enforcement removal operations does track the number of overstays but the numbers can be skewed because it may not just be reporting on the overstay violation itself. If the person was picked up for another charge, for example, and happen to be an overstatement would be included in that number. I would have to flip to my materials to find you an exact number, but the number is a very large when its statistically speaking for simply being an overstay. And thats actually my point is while we do a pretty good job it sounds like a tracking overstays, we dont actually do a very good job of identifyingwe people wh have overstayed their visa unless vick committed a crime or otherwise come to the attention of Law Enforcement authorities. Thats not your fault. Thats a lack of political will on the part of policymakers andd resources being provided to those of you who are working in the field. Senator flake. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks for wholly different. Take you for your testimony and im sorry i come late but i hope im not pounding in your strategy. Mr. Dougherty, at a recent house hearing you mentioned the government needs to do quote needs a better means of communicating with people. Referencing the idea to notify those who are on immigration visas at a time is about to expire. We have pushed for this in the past with the 744 bill. I think its a common sense approach to alleviate some of the overstay issues we are facing today. But what is the current process of tracking not immigrants in the United States keeping tabs when they travel within the United States and provide i noticed another the gentlemans time has expired. Is about to expire . So we started providingted pr notification to some of the visa waiver travelers that have overstayed and let them know their authorization to travel under Visa Waiver Program is now canceled. What percentage of those . A small percent right at the resort us and those in the notification. Everybody when the coming we step there passport we write the admission date until they can look it up online and verify the they can print out the form that has that information. The number youre sending it to now, what is it based on . When it visa waiver travesties beyond those 90 days, we are sent them an email to notify them. We have never recorded you as being an overstay. Later this year well build out the system to get people about attend a warning to also let them know hey, in ten days you are expected to depart the u. S. Right that it is just its just past for the group for the visa waiver. Theyre going to expand to the prenotification and expanded to the visa holders as well. Okay. Mr. Wagner, congress has debated benefits of with respect to foreign nationals, the priory has been with those entering the country rather than keeping track of those leaving a i know youve touched on this a bit already but i understand some airlines in certain locations, atlanta and dulles are testing some the biometric exite biom capabilities through facial recognition technology. Can you talk about that . Sure. We have launched a couple of sites in conjunction with the airlines looking at how to we took a picture of a person boarding the plane and compare that against the gallery we prestaged at who expect to be on that flight. So the airline provides is the manifest in advance of who is going to be on the plane. We retrieve the photographs we already have from your passports, visas your arrival photographs. We stated in a separate database. Its a much smaller set of data where searching it against. We can take your pictures as you board the plane and only search against 300 people. Earch against 300 people, not the billion photographs that we have access to so this way we can get a very accurate and Quick Response and confirm that is the person that was listed on the manifest by the data that matches up and also betting that weve done weve run the Biographical Data and we know it is accurate and belongs to the person that we expected President Trump january 22nd executive order called for expedited complete of the biometric entry, exit system. What is the time of completion. Rest of this calendar year wield be building out the platform to be able to do that at all our commercial air location. It will take us until recall next year to finish that. We have to build photos, database to stage them, matches to do the facial recognition algorithm comparison and look at the front inddeployment of the camera technology. Where does it go at the airport . Will the airlines work with us . Will it be incorporated into boarding . I expect by recall next year we will start to deploy this at a lot of the major airports. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Id like to correct the record earlier when we were talking about the visa overstay numbers, just to make it clear 739,000 overstays weve been tack about are land and seaport. Excuse me, air and seaports. Not land ports, just for the record. Or let me ask one other question and ill turn to senator blumenthal. I think senator tillis has another question. As a member of the Senate Intelligence committee im aware that Foreign Countries are continually trying to penetrate our National Security measures in order to gain espionage on the United States and some of that could well include foreign students and other foreign nationals who come to the United States who are already recruited by the spy agencies from our adversaries, or once theyre here, then recruited once theyre here in the United States, and stay and spy on our country. Is this a potential vulnerability . Yes, sir, that is one of the reasons we started our domestic man tis program. One of the vulnerabilities identify inned in the gao report many years ago suggested students could come here to study nonsensitive field of study. Subsequently change their major to something more sensitive. There was a loophole in the system to do that we created domestic mantis, thus far we identified several hundred people, i dont have the stats, used that process. As a result of whittling it down, were looking at people studying in higher education, masters degrees, phds, that kind of thing. We come up with 11 leads sent to the field for further investigation. Because we are serious about that and take that to be a serious problem, or potential problem in the fact someone could come here to study english as second language, subsequently change their major down the road to nuclear engineering, for example, learn that ability, potentially could become a deemed export if the person goes back to the their home country. We have a pilot implemented in august. It proven to be successful. We found on person in particular did just what i described. Very, very serious problem for us. It is something that we are addressing. Thank you. We are justly concerned about foreign nations interfering in our elections and activities they use to undermine confidence in our Public Institutions but this is a vulnerability we need to Pay Attention to, i appreciate it. Senator blumenthal. Thank you. I agree, mr. Chairman with what you just said. My question perhaps to mr. Rodi, by the way i should have thanked ault all of you for your service. We sounded critical. It is not personal to you. As the chairman said, we recognize you are working with limited resources and were here to help you, not to be critical, and thank you, mr. Rodi, for your service in uniform as well as now and i note with, with and pride youre a graduate of southern connecticut state university. Yes, sir. Let me ask you, are detainers issued for all of overstays . Because the chairman implied that one of the reasons why sank wear wary cities sanctuary cities in his view mow pose a threat because theyre not enforcing detainers. You didnt issue a detainer for everyone ever those 700,000 plus people that overstay. No, sir. The visa overstays we would be investigating per the leads we send out, if one of those people conducting investigations happens to be in custody somewhere, yes, we would send out a detain are notice so we could deal with them appropriately upon release but the vast majority of the rest of the overstays that were investigating are not in custody. So were not sending out. In essence, somebody has been arrested for something else, there would be a detainer but that just is applicable to a very tiny fraction of the total number of overstays . For overstay investigations, yes. And i want to be sure i understand because senator cornyn said that the overwhelming vast majority of overstays, i think, im quoting him, melt into the Great American landscape, and that means in essence they are good to go, good to stay as long as they dont get into trouble and find themselves arrested for doing something else, whether it is robbing a bank or going through a red light or, something that brings them into court, is that roughly correct . T well, sir we only send out leads for those individuals we deem to be a concern for us for National Security or Public Safety reasons. So that number is low in comparison to the overall overstay population. So yes, those are that do not meet our priorities we do send those, those leads to ero, enforcement removal operations, for further action and they have their own prioritization scheme they use. Those leads are sent to the National Criminal analysis targeting center that ero maintains in vermont. They take the leads andd prioritize based on their investigative priorities as well. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator blumenthal. I have just one question that really builds on some questions that senator blumenthal asked, and i think chairman cornyn expanded on. For the purposes of instructing us on things that we should do, either in allocation of resources or additional authorities, do we have an exhaustive, or do we have even the ability to produce an exhaustive analysis that involves demographics and the, what im thinking about is, you take a look at the, lets just 426,000 number. He if you had an idea there was an liar, consistent percentage of these people were certain age group or certain visa status, any number of indicators, let he use that as basis for prioritizing things we would do to try to provide additional sport for your agencies, does that data exist to provide any sort of formula validation, mr. Dougherty . The quality of the information that we have right now in these divergent database, when they come together, when you have a platform allows you to look at that. When, they dont you now. Were talking perspective at some point in the future. The build is on the way. From speaking at staff, were looking good for 2018 to have these high value data sets put together. Your ability to look, you heardt it a million times. Can we get that view that has got everything that is about that particular person in one place or achievable, reachable as im on my computer, i can go out, i dont need to know 40 passwords. I i just know everything i care about is coming into this query. The intent is to try to get to that particular place. So i may have already forgotten what your question was. So i think it is, right now, it would be virtually impossible, back to the hair ball, i worked in systems environment i got here. You have hair ball systems disconnected. You have to integrate them, on a platform or find some method of consolidating the information so you can make sense out of it but it would seem to me that information would be very valuable for us to go in, say if we couldnt boil the ocean, get everything done at once, if we look at segments of the overstay population where there tend to be larger numbers, then you get to the root causes or other enforcement policies at least let you get to the larger ones first or easier ones any way to use it to prioritize how we allocate Additional Resources and provide resources for other things you need to do. Today we dont have it but hopeful we have it in 2018 . That is what were driving towards. I completely agree to you, if you start to do Different Things with this data, you could make a lot of good policy choices and operational choices as well. Could be you need to engage in some type of Information Campaign or some type of enforcement activity we dont now and of course on the policy side the more you know about the numbers you have got in front of you as a you know as a former i. T. Professional it makes informed and better choices. The more information the better we can crosscheck it or have different means of manipulating that data, the better we get policies and better were he actually able to do legislation and we can make informed decisions about what it is that were looking at. Thank you. Mr. Roth, just finally, in terms of in your assessment and the world that i was in we would always summarize an assessment of organizations with a simple stop, start, continue of the big, of the big issues. Could you talk about things in your assessment you all have determined or stop it because it is not particular helpful or not particularly effective . Start it because it could have very positive impact and some practices are working well. Could you give me just a brief summary . I mean sure. When you look at biometric exit system and the biomet i can Pilot Program that has been discussed here today that is something well take a very hard look at. We dont think they can have the kind of data they needs to do the kinds of work we discussed without it. So that is sort of a musthave system. That is not something you could stop. We worry as skeptics that we are, historically has not done a good job of i. T. Of information across databases. This is a curse working at dhs there are number of various components. Not a know mallty that other challenge we have we continue to face. Were looking very hard at what. That what i would say we have to have these systems. Dhs has to have the kind of systems to make the kind of analysis thats appropriate. But we are going to take a hard look at these things. Well report what we find. Thank you very much. Gentlemen, thank all of you for being here and senator cornyn had to stop out for a 4 00 commitment so i will be closing out the hearing and i appreciate your participation today. We will keep the record open for a period of one week. If there is any followup questions on behalf of the members. I thank you all for your service and particular thanks to folks on the front lines doing their jobs. We appreciate it. This meeting is adjourned. Gnawed you gnawed. [inaudible conversations]. With the help of our comcast partners this weekend the cspan cities tour takes booktv and American History tv to concord, massachusetts, where the first shots of the American Revolution were fired. And then less than a century later, a writers revolution takes place as the town becomes home to ralph waldo emerson, Henry David Thoreau and luisa may alcott. Saturday, noon eastern on booktv, well take you inside of orchard house, where luisa may alcott lived and wrote the