Transcripts For CSPAN3 Auto Industry Executives Testify On Self-Driving Cars 20170223

Auto executives testified about their work on selfdriving cars, testing the cars themselves and safety of government regulation. [ indistinct chatter ] good morning. Id like to call the subcommittee on Digital Commerce and Consumer Protection to order. The chair now recognizes himself for five minutes for an opening statement. Again, good morning and welcome to the first hearing of the 115th congress for the Digital Congress and Consumer Protection subcommittee. Its a pleasure to be here with you all today. Before we get started, i want to thank the chairman for the work they did in the last congress here on the subcommittee. I want to recognize the new vice chairman of the subcommittee, the gentleman from mississippi. Glad to have you on board. Also looking forward to working to advance an agenda that creates jobs and puts consumers first and i want to recognize the gentle lady from illinois, our Ranking Member. I appreciate well be working with her this congress. I look forward to working in a bipartisan fashion to grow the economy and protect consumers. Finally, as chairman, i look forward to working with the members of the subcommittee to continue to explore areas in the emerging Digital Economy to provide opportunities for growth and job creation in america. I recently had an opportunity to visit the auto show here in washington, d. C. The showroom floors were filled with vehicles equipped with innovative features and newly designed systems that promised to enhance the safety, mobility and convenience of our drivers experiences. I was also greatly impressed with the creativity and ingenuity of the Auto Industry to build the vehicles that we could only dream about a short time ago. The Technological Advancements in the sector are nothing short of amazing. Today the subcommittee will continue to focus on selfdriving vehicles and their potential to completely transform our Transportation System. Well hear about what testing is happening, what testing needs to happen and what the timeframe is for that deployment. In 2015 there were over 35,000 lives tragically lost on our nations highways. Over 1,000 of these fatalities were in my home state of ohio. Based on early estimates, traffic fatalities in 2016 are going to be even higher. Unfortunately, we also know that human error accounts for over 90 of all the traffic accidents. These are starting ta tisks. However, the emerges of Automated Vehicle technology and growing investments into fully selfdriving vehicles promises to reduce lives lost on the roads by decreasing traffic accidents making roadways safer for all users. As we work to make self driving vehicles a reality, adequately testing these vehicles will be critical for refining their mission. Today conventional vehicles undergo tests on public roads before theyre sold to consumers. In each of these settings, vehicle engineers and professional test drivers go through detailed assessments and inspections of vehicles to ensure compliance of crash worthiness and crash avoidance standards and to verify a vehicles overall structural integrity. Cars are put through hundreds of thousands of miles of testing to ensure once a vehicle is on a dealers lot it is safe for consumers and their families. Unlike conventional vehicles fully self driving vehicles are intended to operate without the input or control of human drivers. No longer will a manufacturer be able to rely on drivers to take action based on unplanned roadway activity. Testing will be essential to certifying the safety and reliability of the Technology Empowering selfdriving vehicles. As we discuss the testing of selfdriving vehicles today and steps to commercial deployment, i look forward to learning from the withins about how lawmakers and other entities are testing these and plans for future deployment. I also look forward to hearing about how the existing testing environment can be improved to facilitate the developments of potentially lifesaving technology in this country. Ohio Transportation Research announced an investment into a Smart Mobility advanced research and test center in east liberty, ohio to allow for the testing of selfdriving vehicles across thousands of acres of road courses. We need to understand how to ensure more states take positive steps to move testing forward and to ensure that testing doesnt become a roadblock to innovation. Roadblock vehicle testing is essential to the successful and safe deployment as selfdriving vehicles. Testing will not only provide auto makers and other entities with the data they need to make these vehicles as safe as possible, but it will help build Consumer Confidence in this technology, which is central to realizing the future benefits of selfdriving vehicles. I thank the witnesses for taking the time to be with us today and i look forward to a thoughtful and engaging discussion. And at this time, i have about a minute left. And is there anyone on our side that would like to claim the minute . The chair recognizes the vice chairman. Thank you for calling this hearing today to build on the subcommittees previous efforts to examine and better understand the world of selfdriving cars. As many of you have noted today, the developments in innovation of selfdriving cars has the potential to provide countless improvements to our Transportation System and invaluable safety enhancements that could save thousands of lives every year. Of particular interest to me is the potential benefits and new opportunities that selfdriving cars would provide to americans with disabilities, including those with intellectual disabilities who are unable to obtain drivers licenses and must rely on friends, relatives and sometimes uncertain modes of Public Transportation in order to get about their daily lives, including running errands or just getting to a job. In the disability world, lack of transportation is widely viewed as the top impediment to success and advancement in society. Selfdriving cars could offer the Disability Community a really tremendous opportunity. Were looking forward to hearing more about this. With that i yield back. The gentleman yields back and the chair now recognizes the gentle lady from illinois, the Ranking Member of the subcommittee, for five minute force an opening statement. Thank you so much. This is the first hearing of the newly renamed digital Consumer Protection and subcommittee. This has always been Consumer Protection subcommittee. But im glad to see the name Consumer Protection is back in our official name, where it belongs. The subcommittee has important work to do on behalf of american consumers. We are kicking off the congress with a hearing on auto safety, which comes as the number of traffic deaths nationwide is increasing and Consumer Product safety. We need recall effectiveness to prevent safety issues before products are sold. Meanwhile, the emergence of new Technology Poses new challenges for Cyber Security and personal privacy. It impacts americans every day lives. We need to be watch dogs ensuring the benefit of american consumers. I know well be able to Work Together to provide consumer interests over the course of the congress. I also want to take a brief moment to thank the democratic members of our subcommittee. I want to welcome back to the subcommittee doris duly and jane green and, of course, our members from the last congress, joe kennedy. I am very excited to work with all of you and the rest of our subcommittee colleagues. Todays hearing continues our discussion of selfdriving cars where we left off in november. Selfdriving cars have the potential to greatly reduce the number of accidents caused by human error. However, we need adequate testing and oversight to ensure that human error is not replaced with vehicle error. I share auto manufacturers optimism about the longterm promise of Autonomous Vehicles and today i want to focus on how we would get there. While testing is necessary before we can confidently put consumers in selfdriving cars. And what is that testing . The Just Trust Us approach simply doesnt work for passenger vehicles. Not after the industrys failure that weve seen from takata air bags to the vw emissions scandal. The longterm viability of selfdriving cars depend on manufacturers and government working cooperatively to share data and promote safety. As we think about testing, we need to figure out the specifics of how many waivers are necessary for test vehicles in the coming years and how specific those waivers should be. We need to decide what safety tests or standards are necessary. And we need to determine how states and the federal government can best Work Together to ensure safe roads. I want to apologize that i have to step out for a moment as i told the chairman. I also have a Budget Committee meeting this morning. I hope to be back later to ask questions of our witnesses. I want to thank those that i met before this hearing for their time and their information. I want to thank you all for being here today. I know yield the remaining time to congresswoman matsuey. Thank you very much for yielding me time. Autonomous vehicles have incredible potential to change so much more than just cars. This Technology Gives us a way to think about mobility. It has the potential to expand access to seniors, americans with disabilities and so many more who may not be able to drive today. This Technology Allows us to rethink urban landscapes and public spaces we may no longer need for Parking Spaces and perhaps most importantly it promises safety benefits for families. This places new demands on our roads and highways and the spectrum of infrastructure that powers wireless communications. We need a framework that ensures were building the connected future of the 21st century. Driverless cars will have an impact to our economies, communities and global competitiveness. As we consider this new landscape, there is an Important Role for state and federal regulators, Technology Companies and traditional manufacturers, and congress to play in deploying this future. I look forward to working with all of you in this exciting area and i yield back the balance of my time. Thank you very much. The gentle lady yields back. Right now i dont believe the chairman of the full committee is here. So well formally pass on the chairmans testimony at this time. The chair would recognize for five minutes the gentleman from new jersey, the Ranking Member of the full committee. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I wanted to start by congratulating you on your new chairmanship of this newly named subcommittee and im hopeful that the subcommittee will use this mandate to watch out for the little guy. And im very pleased that the words Consumer Protection once again appear in the subcommittees name. Todays hearing on selfdriving cars is an example of our Consumer Protection oversight obligation. I recently read something in code that i think can sum up where we are. I quote, a decade ago selfdriving cars were a matter of debate. Today theyre inevitable. Since we know theyre coming to the marketplace im pleased instead of talking about the potential benefits achieved in the out years, we will get into the weeds a bit and i look forward to hearing about where we are today in the testing, what needs to be done to establish these cars are reliable and safe. As i said in our selfdriving cars hearing in november, we need these vehicles to be safe not just when all cars on the road are autonomous, but also during the decades of transition time when they share the road with human drivers. I look forward to hearing how innovators are using testing, modeling, analytics and other tools to demonstrate that these vehicles are safe, that they meet the challenges of interacting with other common obstacles on our roads, such as bicyclists, pedestrians and wet, snowcovered pavement. Privacy protections are in place to defend against hackers. Autonomous driving has been create bid hardworking men and women, many of whom are immigrants, who bring skills to our workforce. Any efforts to put up roadblocks to immigration will also put up roadblocks in oufr efforts to be ahead in the technology curve. At the same time 70 of American Workers vulnerable to computerization, we need to find ways to tap technologies to help these workers find new opportunities through education and training. Thank you again. I yield the remainder of my time to representative dingle. Who . Shes not here. Oh, how could i miss you with that beautiful dress . Okay. Im just going to talk loud. No one has ever said i didnt have a big mouth. Thank you for yielding. Theres never been a more exciting time to be in the Auto Industry. Mr. Chairman, its an honor to be a member of this committee too. The midwest is here. Thank you. Its technology. Digital commerce. Were trying to stay at the forefront of innovation and technology. Theres never been a more exciting time to be in the Auto Industry. Automated vehicles are not just something you read about in Science Fiction novel. In reality, theyre already here and helping transform mobility and the transportation of people and goods. Transportation is no longer the accurate word. Mobility is. In 2015, 23,950 people died on the road in this country. This would be a Public Health epidemic if it were in any other industry. Automated vehicles will help us save lives, as many of my previous other colleagues have noted. Since 94 of accidents are attributable to human error. Its also an issue of international competitiveness. Automated vehicles will be developed globally whether we like it or not. I think its critical that america be at the forefront of innovation and technology by taking the lead in developing these potentially lifesaving advances, or well lose our Competitive Edge in this critical space. My home state of michigan is leading the way in this area. I am proud that the American Center for mobility is in the 12th district and will focus on testing, verification and Self Certification of Automated Vehicles and was just designated as an Automated Vehicle proving ground by d. O. T. Michigan, in a bipartisan way, my colleagues and others are dedicating considerable resources to Automated Vehicles. And im committed to helping it and the United States remain leaders in this vital area. That being said, safety, including Cyber Security, has to be our top priority here. Nobody wants to let unsafe technologies on the road, but we also dont want to prevent vehicles that improve safety from reaching consumers either. Im looking forward to working with the committee and stakeholders to strike the right balance between supporting innovation and making sure that consumers are safe. I yield back the balance of my time. The gentle lady yields back. And, as i mentioned when the chairman of the full committee arrives, he will be afforded the opportunity to give his opening statement. That now concludes we now conclude with the members Opening Statements. The chair would like to remind members pursuant to committee rules, all Opening Statements will be made part of the record. We want to thank all of our witnesses for being with us today and taking the time to testify before the subcommittee. Todays witnesses will have the opportunity to give Opening Statements followed by a round of questions from the members. Our witness panels for todays hearings will include mike ableson who is the Vice President of global strategy of General Motors, mr. Anders karlberg at volvo car group. Dr. Kara, senior information scientists and codirector at the center for Decision Making under uncertainty. Mr. Gil pratt, ceo at Toyota Research institute and mr. Joseph opaku, Vice President of Public Policy at last yft. We appreciate you being here today. When we begin the round of questions well start with mr. Ableson and youll be recognize ed for five minutes. We appreciate you again being with us today. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Good morning. My name is mike ableson. Im the Vice President of Global Mobility strategy for General Motors. I want to thank the chairman and Ranking Members, subcommittee members for inviting me to tell you more about General Motors vision for the coming transformation and the opportunity that selfdriving vehicles hold for the American Public. I would like to relate a personal story that has struck very close to the heart of myself and my General Motors colleagues. This last september, one of our colleagues, steve kiefer, suffered an incredible tragedy. His son was returning to college after spending a weekend at home when he was struck and killed by a distracted driver. Watching steve and his family go through this terrible, avoidable loss has just increased the determination of those who know steve to make this Technology Available as soon as its ready so we can avoid these losses in the future, but unfortunately steve is not alone. 10 of vehicle fatalities and 18 of injuries in crashes are due to distracted driving. More than 30 of fatalities involve a drunk driver. 28 of fatalities are speed related. Vehicle crashes continue to be the leading cause of death for children and adults ages 4 to 34. With 94 of fatal crashes caused by human behavior, theres tremendous potential to do much better. Selfdriving cars wont drive while impaired by drugs or alcohol. They wont be distracted by a cell phone. They wont drive drowsy or recklessly, and their speed will be appropriate to the conditions at hand. For years automakers have committed our resources to protecting passengers when crashes do happen. Today, through the continuing development of this technology, we have the opportunity to avoid crashes all together. Not only are we committed to building safe and reliable selfdriving vehicles, we also believe that selfdriving vehicles will provide tremendous benefits to society in terms of convenience and quality of life. Such vehicles will provide unprecedented access to transportation to those who need it most, like people with disabilities, those in underserved neighborhoods with limited access to Public Transportation and the elderly. General motors is incredibly optimistic about the future of mobility. Automakers are faced with a tremendous opportunity to create a new model for personal transportation that changes the way society thinks about the automobile and we are rising to the challenge. In june of last year, gm began testing selfdriving cars on public roads in arizona, the urban center of San Francisco and in december we announced we would begin testing in metro detroit. We have more than 50 vehicles testing in these cities today with more planned in the future. We also announced that gm will produce the next generation of our test driving vehicles at our plant in michigan. The vehicles produced here will allow us to accelerate the testing and validation of this exciting new Safety Technology. Expansion of our real world selfdriving Vehicle Testing Program will allow us to deploy self driving vehicles within carefully defined parameters and boundaries through controlled ridesharing projects. The safety of our customers is our driving principal. Developing selfdriving technology to uphold this standard is our top priority. Our test vehicles currently have a person behind the wheel to monitor and evaluate performance. The safety data gathered by these test vehicle also provide data to prove that our vehicles are ready to operate without a human driver. Current federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards have served the public for years, but technology has lagged behind. Current do not contemplate without human drivers. Without changes to those regulations, it may be years before the promise of todays technology can be realized and in the meantime thousands of deaths could have been prevented. At the same time, we understand that we must be able to prove to our customers, our regulators and the American Public that our vehicles are safe. Nitsa has already begun a collaborative effort with stakeholders to implement selfdriving vehicles. And its imperative that manufacturers have the ability to test these vehicles in greater numbers to gather the safety data that will be critical to allow largescale deployment of selfdriving vehicles. One good way to accomplish this goal is to grant the secretary of Transportation Authority to grant specific exemptions for highly Automated Vehicle development. This authority would be similar to authority currently provided under existing law. During this hearing alone another eight people will have died on u. S. Roads. Eight more families that have to experience the painful loss that our colleague and friend, steve, did. This is far too great of a cost to our nation and our citizens and we are within reach of a solution. We look forward to working with the committee to help create the right policy framework to bring this lifesaving technology to our roads as quickly and as safely as possible. While we have more to learn, our selfdriving bolt evs are getting smarter each week. And we are anxious for the public to be able to experience the technology firsthand. But let me be very clear. Our priority is and always will be the safety our passengers and fellow road users. Thank you for your time today and i look forward to answering any questions that the members of the committee might have. Thank you very much for your testimony. The chair recognizes for five minute minutes mr. Karbar. Thank you. My name is anders karrberg. Im Vice President of Government Affairs at volvo cars. Volvo came to the u. S. In 1955 and last year we sold 81,000 cars here. We employ about 10,000 people with 300 direct employees in new jersey. Next year we will open our First American factory in south carolina. This will add up to 4,000 jobs during the years thereafter. Our factory will be the first all new american car factory in ten years. Safety is the founding principle for volvo cars. We invented the threepoint safety belt. We waived the patent so that safety belts could save lives. Our mission is no one should be killed or seriously injured in a new volvo by 2020. Therefore, we are very, very excited about the benefit selfdriving cars will bring. Roads will be safer. Its been said many times, but cannot be overstated, over 94 of all crashes are due to human error. Selfdriving cars will be important to reduce crashes. Also, selfdriving cars will free up idle time for the driver to do something more productive while being in the car. Our vision is to every year give back one week of quality time to volvo commuters by 2025. However, Going Forward there are some very important preconditions. Technology must be safe. Consumers must trust it. The proper National Framework must be in place. These preconditions are fundamental when we bring this technology to market. The first selfdriving volvo will be an suv. It will be offered to customers in selected cities in the u. S. , europe and china in 2021. The cars will be capable to operate unsupervised during normal traffic conditions on designated commuter roads only. Our approach is not to provide unsupervised driving anywhere, any time. Instead, we start with less complicated conditions where consumer benefits are the highest. Thereafter, stepbystep, we open up for more complex traffic as technology matures. When we develop these cars, we take a comprehensive approach. Groundwork engineering is based on our extensive experience from developing active safety and driver support systems. We Design Systems that are critical for safety with redundancies. We produce historical testing from data from crashes. We will start behavioral testing this year in sweden. We plan to extend those to london and china. We cooperate with uber on engineering the hardware. Our intention is to test ourselves also in the u. S. , but the patchwork of state regulations is a concern. In just the last two months, at least 15 new bills have been introduced in 20 states. This started to become a problem already in 2015 when we publicly called for federal guidelines. Last year we got them. The federal Automated Vehicle policy, a very positive initiative, even if it needs several improvements. What can congress do . First to accelerate Traffic Safety improvements, technologies should be rated. The u. S. Is woefully behind other major markets already having done this. Active Safety Systems are Building Blocks of selfdriving cars. They take partial control when cars risk a crash and would help build Consumer Confidence in unsupervised driving. Second, congress should encourage nitsa to update the fadp with an explicit request that the states refrain from legislating and regulating selfdriving cars. Third, congress should consider incentives for states to adopt the model state policy in the favp. A patchwork will delay making roads safer in america. Its also a competitive disadvantage. This is a race for jobs. Ive discussed regulation with politicians in the u. S. , europe and china. Six years ago i put the u. S. In the lead. Seeing the patchwork, im not so sure. Thank you for the opportunity to testify. I will take any questions later. Thank you very much for your testimony today. The chair recognizes for five minutes dr. Carla ray. Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today on the safety and testing of Autonomous Vehicles. Rand is a Nonprofit Research institution. My spouse is the cofounder of a Silicon Valley start up working on driverless vehicles. Public crashes pose a threat in the United States. Autonomous vehicles have the potential to mitigate this crisis. As a society we want them to be as safe as possible as quickly as possible, but they probably wont eliminate all crashes and they may introduce new safety risks. Particularly in the near term. Today id like to describe several challenges that stand in our way of realizing the safety benefits and mitigating the safety risks. Then ill propose some solutions. The first challenge is that there isnt yet a practical way to prove that Autonomous Vehicles are safe before theyre allowed on the road for consumer use. The second challenge is theres no consensus about how safe they should be before theyre allowed on the roads. So together this means we neither know what tests au Autonomous Vehicles should take nor what constitutes a passing grade. RealWorld Driving experience is crucial for improving autonomous Vehicle Safety. But this present ace third risk. Learning in realworld settings presents risk to early adopters and other road users from which late adopters would benefit. Its like allowing teenagers on the road. They may not be good drivers but they need experience to become safe drivers. In the meantime they pose risks to themselves and others. We use permits and restrictions until they gain that experience. We may need similar policies for Autonomous Vehicles in their teenage years. Theres a clear role for sound policy making and ill make three recommendations. I recommend that we rapidly develop methods of testing safety. These methods can be developed by researchers, academics, but wherever they come from, they need to be vetted. Its not enough for testing methods to exist. Second i recommend building them into a flexible, adaptive, Regulatory Framework that specifies what level of safety performance Autonomous Vehicles need to meet before theyre allowed on the roads. A lower threshold of safety may be okay for demonstration projects designed to improve their performance in controlled environment, but a higher threshold of safety may be warranted for higher use in uncontrolled environments. As with teenage drivers, the framework should balance the need for experience with the need to protect the public from risks and the framework should be revised as the technology evolves. Such a framework would fall under nitsa jurisdiction, but should be developed with the collaborative of industry and the public. Nitsa has released federal policies for Autonomous Vehicles, but they dont specify testing methods or performance requirements or develop such a framework. Theyre also not requirements but guidelines at this time. A Regulatory Framework like the one im proposing will take time and in the interim, i thirdly suggest that strategic pilot studies and data sharing can help. Pilot studies could start with realworld testing in controlled conditions, in favorable climates and then could be expanded if safety is demonstrated. Risks can also be lowered by designing and operating vehicles so that if a crash does occur, the risks are lowered. For example, by limiting vehicle speed or ensuring that all pilot study passengers buckle up. As for data sharing, Developers Already use the experience of a single vehicle in their fleet to improve the performance of the entire fleet. This could occur faster if experiences could be shared across the industry to improve the entire technology. There are certainly nontrivl concerns about protecting trade secrets and also about ensuring that the right data is shared so that its useful. But these concerns could be addressed and they should be addressed so that they can balance the need for safe autonomous driving. We cant predict what the future of this technology will be on transportation safety, but we can shape that trajectory with welldesigned policies. I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify today. Thank you for allowing me to appear before you and i look forward to your questions. Thank you very much for your testimony today. The chair recognizes for five minutes dr. Pratt. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. My name is gil pratt. Im the ceo of the Toyota Research institute. Before working for toyota, i was a Program Manager in the area of robotics at d. A. R. P. A. Tri focuses on the development of Artificial Intelligence and related technologies. It was formed in january of 2016 with a fiveyear 1 billion commitment from toyota. Tri is located wholly within the United States with its headquarters in palo alto, california, and additional teams in an arbor, michigan, and cambridge, massachusetts. Tri is intently focused on the development of Autonomous Vehicles. Were currently pursuing two halves to autonomy. A system called guardian and a system called chauffeur. Under guardian, its stepping in only when a collision is imminent. Under chauffeur, the Technology Takes over the driving task from the human driver. Were currently testing and refining both guardian and chauffeur. Because they have the potential to save lives, our hope is to deploy these systems as soon as possible but only once we know they can be deployed safely and responsibly. Society tolerates a significant amount of human error on our roads. We are all, after all, only human. Yet human beings show zero tolerance for injuries or deaths caused by flawed machines. So the question is, how safe is safe enough, for this Autonomous Technology to be deployed. As we sit here today, it is not clear how this measure will be devised or by whom. Before developers can complete testing of these systems and deploy the technology, policymakers such as yourselves will need to answer this foundational question. Policymakers must also keep in mind that testing is a necessary means to an end. The goal is to develop a vehicle that can save lives and improve the efficiency of our roads. We cannot reach that goal unless were able to test our technology in realworld environments including on public roads. Testing is what will allow us to determine when our Technology Achieves a sufficient level of performance and is ready for deployment. One of the most significant challenges that we face is the patchwork of policy initiatives at the state level. Many of the other witnesses have referred to the same thing. Under a patchwork of inconsistent state laws, autonomous Vehicle Technology may need performance requirements in one state, and not in another state. Such a situation will impede the ability of a developer to test the same system across multiple states, slowing the development and deployment of the technology. Policymakers should work to promote and advance a single, National Framework with appropriate safeguards. We believe that the federal Automated Vehicle policy that was released by ntsa was an important step in cementing leadership in this area. However we also believe there are several areas that should be addressed before the policy is fully implemented. This includes clarifying in the favp itself that ntsa does not intend for states to regulate vehicle performance. Reconsidering the plikability of the Safety Assessment to the testing of Autonomous Vehicles by traditional automakers and reassessing the need to submit a new assessment for each significant update to a prototype. The reason for the last comment is that we develop these systems very quickly, and it will create tremendous red tape to have to submit that assessment every single time that a change is made. There has also been growing discussion of the need for data sharing. We support the goals of data sharing, but we also believe theres a significant amount of work to be done to ensure that it does not create paradoxical incentives to avoid difficult test conditions which would actually worsen safety, not improve safety. We look forward to working with other stakeholders to determine how to share data in the most practical and effective manner. Before closing, i would like to provide a couple of additional observations. First, with regard to testing. The truth is that millions of physical testdriven miles are necessary, but they are probably not sufficient to achieve the reliability that we need for autonomous Vehicle Technology. Particularly if those testdriven miles are through easy or predictable routes. All testing miles are not created equal. And developers should be focused on testing scenarios where driving is challenging or even exceedingly difficult. We believe with adequate evidence, computer simulation of billions of test miles are needed to accelerate and expand the range of testing of these systems, and that these simulated miles, if theyre valid, should be an acceptable equivalent to realworld testing. Finally, its important that the federal government begin looking beyond testing to deployment of these systems. This includes updating the federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards to address the handful of standards inconsistent with or incompatible with autonomous Vehicle Technology. I thank you very much for your time. And look forward to working with you to advance this important technology. Most of all, i look forward to taking your questions. Thank you. Thanks very much. And for your testimony today. And the chair now recognizes for five minutes mr. Okpaku for five minutes. Thank you for being here today. Thank you, chairman lotta, and congresswoman dingle and members of the subcommittee. My name is Joseph Okpaku and i am the president of Government Relations for lyft. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on this important topic. Lyft was the First Company to establish peertopeer ondemand ride sharing and is currently the Fastest Growing Ride Share Company in the United States. It connects nearly 18 Million People per month with efficient, affordable and safe rides in over 250 communities across the state across the country. Lyft was founded with the mission of improving lives by offering the worlds best transportation and in less than five years weve proven to be a powerful driver of positive change with respect to economic empowerment, enhancing the efficiency of Public Transportation, and connecting communities that were previously underserved by prior Transportation Options. The proof is in the data. Since our launch in 2012, lyft has worked to reduce traffic and congestion, increase mobility options, prevent duis, stimulate local economies, and provide Economic Opportunities to our drivers. And this is only the beginning. Autonomous vehicles hold the tremendous potential to not only further improve the quality of life for our users, but also to literally save the lives by decreasing the frequency and severity of Motor Vehicle accidents. Lyfts commitment to testing and deploying a. B. S is rooted in the belief that the inherent safety benefits of Autonomous Vehicles should be affordable and available to all segments of the public, regardless of income, geography or disability. Furthermore, lyft believes the introduction of avs via ridesharing network will fundamentally transform cities and the way people move provide a Transportation Network that will greatly reduce the need and demand for car ownership and significantly expand Transportation Options particularly for sections that have limited access due to age, infirmity or disability. As vehicle ownership rates decline and consumers continue to engage with the lyft platform we will see fewer cars on the road, less congestion and increased positive impacts. A world with fewer cars provides a tremendous opportunity to reorient, reimagine and redesign our urban fabric. Cities in the not too distant future could be built around people instead of cars and should and could be defined by communities and connections not pavement and parking spots. They could and should include common spaces where culture can thrive and new ideas can be shared in the very places where cars previously stood parked and empty. Lyft stands at the center of this coming transportation revolution as we believe the transition to an autonomous future will occur not only through individually owned cars but more practical and appealing to rely on Autonomous Vehicles when theyre part of a Ride Sharing Network fleet. To this end, it is our goal to operate a pilot in a major city this year that will permit consumers to enjoy for the very first time a lift in an Autonomous Vehicles. There are serious challenges to bringing them to market for mass consumption. The greatest potential obstacle is regulations. The greatest risk as some of the members have already stated on this panel is inconsistent patchwork of state, local, municipal and county laws that will hamper efforts to bring the technology to market. This scenario is well on the way to becoming reality. Since the beginning of the year, over 20 states have filed 60 bills to regulate the testing and deployment of avs. While most bills are wellintentioned, it is our position states should not rush to regulate this technology. Its our view if a state does choose to take legislative or regulatory action with respect to Autonomous Vehicles, it should be to moving impediments and creating a pro competitive and Technology Neutral playing field. In order to facilitate the continued innovation testing and development of avs by all industry participants, i would urge congress to examine two potential avenues for action, first is the authority to allow for a greater number of Autonomous Vehicles to be on the road for testing and deployment purposes and the second is to have nhtsa begin a rule making process to update bms standards and deployment and introduction into commerce of avs at a commercial scale. Lyft looks forward to working with the members of this committee to insure avs can be deployed and tested safely in communities across the country. The potential ability they offer to save thousands of live and reduce traffic and reduce congestion and reorient our communities for the better around people not cars is an achievable nearterm reality. With a collective effort we can all insure this potential is reached. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today and im happy to answer any questions you might have. Thank you for your testimony today. We appreciate it. That will conclude the Opening Statements from the witnesses and the chair will recognize himself for five minutes to begin questioning of our witnesses. Again, we appreciate you aller for being here. Mr. Ableson, if i could start my questions with you, could you discuss gms timeline for deploying selfdriving cars . Pull that mike right up there. We currently have deployed in three cities vehicles that are operating at a level 4 automation with drivers in them. We are collecting data on how the vehicles operate. When we have convinced ourselves that the vehicles are operating properly and are at a level that would inspire confidence in the technology, we will then make those vehicles available for members of the public to experience with drivers. At that point, we will continue to collect data on a wider scale. Only when we have collected enough data to convince ourselves were truly ready to go driverless will we then remove the drivers from the vehicles and let them operate as selfdriving vehicles. Let me follow up. Cybersecurity is a huge out there, across what we deal with in this subcommittee and across the congress today. Can you tell me, or go into detail how youre looking at insuring against Cyber Threats . I can. Cybersecurity is an issue General Motors takes very seriously. We had the Onstar Service for 20 years and we are not new to the connected vehicle space. Specifically around cybersecurity, we were also the first automaker to appoint a chief Cyber Security officer who reports directly to ceo and the board of dreker or thes. We were also a Founding Member of the auto isac, an Industry Committee to share best practices and learning on cybersecurity. Jeff mas mill la is our chief Cyber Security officer and also the vice chairman of the auto isac. Its an area weve been very active in. Weve worked with companies from other industries, the Defense Industry and the Aerospace Industry to make sure that we have the current learnings and not just in the Auto Industry, but in industrial spaces, wherever they are. Thank you. Mr. Pratt. In toyotas comments on nhtsa on the federal Automated Vehicles policy, toyota mentioned they would be deploying the systems in a stepbystep manner as the technology matures and becomes available. Would you walk us through what that stepbystep process looks like and how long you think it would take for that technology to mature to a point it might be ready to be deployed . Sure. Id be glad to. First of all, we have a number of Automated Vehicle technologies already in our cars today. These include the Toyota Safety sense system and lexus safety sense system. In particular, automated emergency braking is one of these types of guardian system i spoke about before where the autonomy intervenes when the human is driving in order to prevent an accident. Thats already happening now and we believe were saving many lives as a result of doing so. As you desire to have the human being take less and less control of driving and have the autonomy take up more control, you ascend up the sae levels you may know about. Our plan is to be selftimed in this regard. We dont have a specific date as to when to remove the driver from the car just as gm, but rather to test to see when the system is safe enough to do so. Of course, this does not happen all of the time, but it happens in the beginning, only some of the time. In certain areas, and certain weather and certain traffic conditions. At the beginning with human beings supervising the autonomy and in the end where you can trust it enough so that you dont need a human being. And so there is no definitive dater for those steps, but a step by step process to gradually remove the supervision necessary by the driver with the goal that no supervision is necessary and checking each stage that each system is safe enough. Thank you. Yes. In order for safety to happen, we are doing a number of approaches when it comes to e engineering. We will engage fully in the major part into computer simulations. We have a database of 40,000 traffic accidents that has happened in the past with volvo cars and take those and combine it with the data with the u. S. And data from germany and so that is going to be about 250,000 traffic accidents. We will put it in the computer to how to avoid this. You have to test this in public roads to learn about the behavior on how customers react to this. We will step by step introduce these drivers to more and more advanced technology so that we will plan to be ready by 2021. Thank you, very much. My time has expired. The chair recognizes the gentleman from the new jersey for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. We have heard concern about the period before cars are fully autonomous when there is still a driver, but the driver does not have to be active all of the time. And even if the driver is front of the Steering Wheel and trying to Pay Attention even if the car is doing most of the work, we know it is hard for the driver to stay engaged and some have suggested that we could see an uptick in accidents with vehicles that are relying on the drivers to reengage in a split second. So let me start with mr. Carver. Volvo has said thatt it will skip level three automation as i describe and go from level 2 to level 4, and is it because of those fears that i just mentioned . At level three the car is doing the driving but the driver is the fall back so you could end up in situations where the driver has to retake back the control and that has to happen within seconds. We are concerned about the level three stage within the esa and targeting level four then as the end game. Dr. Kalra, would you like to comment on that . I agree. Theres evidence to suggest level three show increase in level three, so it is plausible for automakers to skip level three. But it does safety concerns that a lot of recognizing and tried to avoid. Volvo said it will take complete liability at level four can you explain that decision . It is really not that strange. Carmakers should take liability for any system in the car. So we have declared that if theres a malfunction to the system when operating autonomously, we would take product liability. Researchers and investigators remotely drivers are shown losing control, so i want to ask how real is the threat of vehicle hacking especially in the autonomous context. Do you expect the nature of the threat to evolve as the technology develops . Also i think you kind of did you talk about this at all yet, no . Would you respond to that, dr. Kalra. Sure. Id be happy to. It is a very real threat. Transportation receives a lot of attack from hacking because its a way to disrupt Transportation System. Theres a great concern. Cybersecurity is not to be shrink wrapped on top of the vehicle, because there are so many parts that can be controlled by the vehicle that it has to be baked from the ground up, and not just hacking for profit and fun, but Autonomous Vehicles provide an avenue for trysts as well, because there is a way to use the vehicles as the threat is to longer suicide bombers that blow themselves up, but now we have vehicles that drive around. So i dont want to overstate the risk at this time, but we have to think about sCyber Security s not only a hack opportunity, but also a terrorism opportunity. Would you like to add a comment . Yes. I agree because of the cybersecurity threat, we need to design the vehicle with that threat in mind. In our case as we deploy the selfdriving chevy volt, they look like the ones that we sell to retail, but we have begun through changes to ep sure Cyber Security is in those vehicles. Go ahead. I wanted to add to that too. Toyota connected is subsidiary of our company thats focused on this. Zach hicks is the ceo and toyota is currently the chair of the auto isac as described before for sharinging Cyber Security and other threats. So to understand as serious as this threat is, there are also mitigations that we can employ, and first of all is to make sure that the Safety Technology on the car does not depend on the Wireless Network in order to operate. So our philosophy is that all of the safety functions have to be selfsufficient on the car itself, and only information over the Wireless Network used to improve the efficiency of operation. Mr. Carver, sure. I agree with the speakers. I want to add approach you have to take encompass supplies and dealers. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The chairman recognizes vice chairman of the subcommittee, the gentleman from mississippi for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. And thank you all for being here. What an exciting topic. This is remarkable. Mr. Able zonks i have ableson, i have a not too technical question for you. Lets say you have your driver out of the selfdriving car, it is selfdriving and im driving along and i honk my horn, will it do any good . We have not reached that point of deciding how and whether it would be appropriate for vehicles to react and can i could have to ask the technical folks. Theres scenarios on whats going to happen and whether a car with a driver comes across a selfdriving car without a driver in there and they realize it. I it will freak some people out. So how that is going to be dealt with is going to be part of the fun part of this process. Absolutely. For me, this is so exciting on a personal level, because my wife and i have a son with special needs, and he is 27, and he works monday through friday, but he is completely dependent upon us for his transportation. Either myself or almost always my wife, because i am here, or our daughter if for some reason she is out of town. So the possibilities are so great here for people with d disabilities and particularly my son with a mental disability who is limited in many ways to what he can do, and so whether this opens it up for running errands or the Grocery Store for the bookstore that he loves or getting to and from work. So as you are looking at that, can you elaborate on the work that gm is doing to provide this type of transportation or the access in the future. I know that you have discussed it. We have. I agree with you, it is an exciting opportunity for some of these communities, and while we recognize the potential benefits, there is a whole lot more work that needs to be done. And however, inside of General Motors we have a designated are Resource Group that is composed of the people with various physical challenges, and they are already working with the Engineering Group on the potential for the selfdriving vehicles Going Forward. We look toward to engage internally with our employees and with external groups on how to realize this potential for those communities. Thank you for that work. Dr. Pratt. Can you also comment on how your company is considering the needs of the Disability Community in the development and the deployment of your selfdriving cars . Yes. Our president decided to change the companys policy on autonomous as a result of meeting with a blind person. He asked him, can i enjoy the mobility of your cars as well and suddenly, the company decided to change its owhole policy. I want to add one more part. We cannot forget about ageing society. 13 of our population is over age 65. Because of the baby boom that fraction is going to grow from 13 to 20 . This is an extraordinary thing. My sister and i had to take away the keys from my father because he is too elderly to drive. That is somebody that nobody should have to go through, and not only for my f only for my father, but the children who have to do that. Our goal is to make that not have to happen in the future. Thank you, very much. Mr. Can you answer what volvo is doing for those with disabilities. We recognize the potential for bringing a happier life to blind people and disabled people and so on. Every sunday, i meet my father who just turned 100 years, and he asks me every week, when can i have this car . For volvo, we are targeting commuters, commuting. Because we believe that is the biggest interest from the consumers are. Mr. Okpaku, can you tell us about the initial challenges challenges . Yes. Thank you for the question. One of the initial challenges was that not every one had a smartphone but we recently adopted that process so you dont have to have smartphone to request a lyft. We have already seen and heard from the disabled community about how rideshare has increased their mobility of their life, and also in terms of the potential to have that same impact with the ability to bring avs to market to the address this issue in a broad and sweeping way. Lyft and ridesharing play a role in sharing that by those who most critically need it. Thank you for. I yield back. The gentleman yields back him the balance of his time. And now, the Ranking Member from illinois is recognized. Let me try this, okay. All right. So even though were some time a waway from a fully selfdriving cars on the road, but the manufacturers have developed some very exciting Safety Technologies right now. From blind spot detection to rear seat notification, and i want to focus for a moment on those discrete technologies. Last year 39 children died from heat strokes in the cars, and these are tragic accident, and i have heard devastating stories from parents who will absolutely never be able to forgive themselves. Last year representative tim ryan and peter king and i introduced hot cars, a bill to equip new vehicles with rear seat notification to warn drivers that a pas ssenger may left behind. So mr. Abelson. What is gm doing to prevent child heat deaths . As you said, these are tragic circumstances, and gm has already announced that we are implementing on the 2017, and 2018 models a rear seat reminder system that through monitoring when a rear door is open on the vehicle, then when the ignition is turned off at the end of the journey, chimes sound and a message is put up on the instrument cluster reminding the driver to check the rear seat. This is an effective system to implement, and one that i would say is already in production on many models. Dr. Pratt and mr. Carberg, are your Companies Already working on child heat prevention. First of all, Consumer Education is important. However, what we have recently introduced is emotion sensor. It can sense if a child or animal moves. Its a first step for this and i would be happy to provide for the protocol later on exactly how efficient these technologies are to protect our children. And the problem of course is that often the baby is sleeping, and so there is no movement. Dr. Pratt. I run the research lab, i do not know the particular implementation, but the research. But i do know that we are working on this issue, and particularly monitoring the occupants inside of the car for a number of things. Even if a person is sleeping, there is Research Technology and again, i dont nknow when it is going to be fielded which can amplify the small motions that happen as a result of the heart beat and changes in the skin temperature as well. So there are ways that in future we might do it, but id be glad to get you more information from the company in terms of when we plan to field such things. We are going to reintroduce our bill, and so i would appreciate all of the manufacturers to look at that and get us the iner formation. Automatic emergency breaking is another technology emergency. You said automatic emergency braking is standard in almost every model, toyota model this year. How long would get to 100 . Im not sure. So i dont know the answer but i would be glad to get it to you. Mr. Abelson and mr. Karrberg what are your companies time line for automatic braking . At gm we agreed with the volunteer rollout, we are working with nits is a nhtsa on that. I dont know the exact date, but i would be happy to get back and send you the details. Mr. Karrberg. Emergency braking since 2013. On our large platform, it is system that breaks for cyclist, large animals day and night. I have questions about various technologies, but i guess that the point i really want to make is that obviously, some of these are available, and available in one manufacturer, but not another, and sometimes it is optional and sometimes it is standard and it seems to me that it would be great if we could harmonize the safety feature features and make sure that if they are really saving lives that they are standard. I am not saying that it always needs to be exactly the same technolo technology, but the same goal at the end of the day so that we do develop these safety features, and i yield back. Thank you. Thank you, the gentle lady yields back, and the chair recognizes for five minutes the gentleman from new jersey. Thank you. Five minutes for the gentleman from new jersey. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Good morning to distinguished panel. Mr. Karrberg once the systems are automatic driving are ready for use by the american people, how should manufactures provide instructions and education about proper use and limitation of the systems or vehicles . That is clearly a priority thats why we start to introduce these vehicles supervised levels already this year to 100 customers on the real roads to learn how they interact with the cars and what supports they need to fully understand it. Then we will design the cars accordingly. Would that require further testing of the public . Would i have to go back to the state of new jersey and be tested further in this regard . We will do tests of how people behave in different areas so we will do tests in sweden and plan to move on the london and china and do it in the u. S. As well to learn how different types of drivers interact with the cars. Mr. Abelson. I would say it is an important question, and at gm we intend to roll out the ridesharing fleets. Did you say ridesharing . Yes, similar to the lyft fleet. One of the advantages is that it gives the public the opportunity to experience the Technology Without having to necessarily buy and own an Autonomous Vehicle and so when you book the ride, it will allow you to give the user the information they need on tohe Autonomous Vehicle. Whether you book the ride to provide the information they need on the Autonomous Vehicle. When do you estimate this may be in use in gms vehicles . As i said we are doing testing on public roads. The exact dated depends on how quickly the data can be gathered. We have to as i said that we are satisfied oourselves and regulators that we are ready before we go driverless. To the distinguished panel do you believe that these automobiles will be used on all of our roads or will they first be used on limited access highway system for example or other similar roads . Dr. Pratt. I would be happy to take that and let me add on the that last question with regard to driver education. I believe that education is key. Some of the issues are having to do with much trust the driver puts in the system not to undertrust or over trust the auto thats there. Whether or not changes to the requirement for license, we are not sure yet. We will learn. Also keep in mind we need to educate the public in term of how they interact with the cars. So we think thats important as well. I was taught driver ed in gym class in high school bucks the year i was taught is a National Security secret. [ laughter ] i would like to address your question, please. Yes, mr. Ableson. I would like to address your questions about will they expand to all roads. I believe overtime, you will see them used on all roads. We are starting with urban environments. New jersey is most densely populated in the nation. This is interesting because of the congestion that exists in the most densely populated state in the country. Yes, dr. Pratt. I grew up in springfield, new jersey. Glad to meet you. Wonderful place. I do believe thats very important, because it is important to realize that the ability of the Autonomous Car to go anywhere any time regardless of the traffic or the weather, is level five. It is some time before we will get to level five. I believe it or not there are places in the world that are worse than new jersey and so i think that well hit new jersey before we handle the whole world. Its going to be in stage with the easier stages coming first. Before i yield by time, you did not grow up in my congressional district. I yield back my time, mr. Chairman. The gentleman yields back the balance of his time, and the chair m chairman recognizes for five minutes the gentlelady from michigan. Thank you, mr. Chairman. As i mentioned, its critical to ensure that automatic vehicles are safe before they are available to consumers, but we have to ensure that there are no a barriers to prevent bringing them to society as a whole. I want to be clear here. We should never let an unsafe or unpro unproven vehicle hit the road, so our challenge is, congress, in how to strike the right balance between supporting innovation and making sure that our consumers are safe. I know all colleagues want to get the record here on some things. So i have few questions for the members of the panel. Because i have limited time, i would ask you to answer yes or no. Yes, the famous mr. Dij yes or no. Do you agree that federal motorcycles safety standard need to be updated in order to support automatic vehicles. Yes we do. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Quorum. It is my understanding that a rule making by nhtsa to update standard making rulemaking will take years, but if that were to commence today, it is likely not to be completed by the time that many in the industry have announced that they would like to deploy Automated Vehicles is that correct . Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Im not sure. The reason im not sure, i would hope that nhtsa could speed up if they could, yes. Yes. Thank you. I love your faith in government. I understand that nhtsa has the awe oauthority to exempt vehicles based on factors, but this Exemption Authority is limited by law in amount and duration. And is expanding this duration to provide a path for rule making that we just discussed . Yes, absolutely. Yes. Maybe. It is more complicate and that the number of vehicles right now. There is no reason to believe that the limit will be hit, and equally important is to think about what basis those exemptions would be granted given that most of the time when one requests an exemption, it is on the argument that the veeckles that are seeking exemption are just as safe or safer, and there is no way to show that, so that is an equal concern with the number of vehicles. That is an important point. And we have the same concerns as the previous witness. Oh, so the answer is yes, and very quickly i would say that the development and the expansion of the ridesharing industry where in 2012, maybe a few rides being completed and next year, the millions of rides show the demand for resources like that. So i think it is a whole hearted yes. Thank you. The answer is yes. The development and expansion of the ridesharing industry in 2012 there were a few thousand rides completed and millions show demand for this so i would say its whole hearted yes. We have had good discussion with proactive thing that the federal government should be doing here. In your opinion are there specific Things Congress should avoid doing that would stifle the development of automatic vehicles. We wouldnt want to see the government taking steps to specify specific solution. Keep in mind the goal is to prove the vehicles are safety. The nhtsa guidelines published last year were very good in that direction, because they dont specify the technology, but the expectation of what should be established before driverless vehicles are deployed. You have a minute and nine seconds. We could not Like Congress to engage because it would stifle development. Also, we i agree with the gentleman from gm its clear that Technology Neutralities is important, and politicians should not be picking winners and losers when it comes to technology, and that should be done by the industry. Technology neutrality is important, and so is developing regulations that are adoptive and flexible and designed to keep up. In terms of what they shouldnt do, i am not specifically sure. I would agree with all the with witnesses before that the evidencebased approach is the best one where the government sets the cry tia for performance and done at the federal level, but does it not dictate the ways that are to complete that level of performance. I agree with the rest of the panel. Even the most well intentioned law to precluding or restricting the potential innovation to make this technology safer. Im out of time. Thank you. The gentleman ladys time has expired. The gentleman from kentucky for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you everyone for being here. I have been following the automobile industry, and i have been figured it out that with the driverless cars, everyone drives the speed limit, and nobody is going to block the left lane, but you have to wonder how it is going to be working if you are turning left, and all of the incoming traffic uses up all of the yellow. Or maybe this happens for you, on the parkway coming from the airport and lined up on 395 like a good citizen and somebody comes at the last minute to force you off because they dont want to wait in line and that is somebody that nobody here does im sure. My question is does the does selfdriving cars have to be perfect to have them on the highway and how do we get to the point where are we can safe ly have them on the highway . Theres no way to prove something is perfect. We have to agree on the metrics. I think thats why this testing in real world is important because youll see the real Life Conditions we deal with on a daily basis. So we will have to make sure that the vehicles react appropriately. Mr. Karrberg if you would like to respond to that and about what level of vehicles are safe, for example and what about level three cars . I would like to comment on the traffic conditions you described here. Thats not where we go initially. Those are complicated conditions. We are targeting consumer roads. That is where the consumer interest is and where the technology will arrive in 2021. I am sorry. Your question was . Comment on level three scars, what you do consider safe. At level three, the car is doing the monitoring, however the driver is still the fallback. The driver may have to be able to take back control in short time. Thats far less safe where the level four car should be able to put the car into a safe mode unless the driver takes over the control and should be able to predict the traffic so that it can be done in a safe manner. So i ask you that the nature of the business is to pick up people and running them around town, and so it is not the commuter and i know that people use you on commuter highways as well, but what you are talking about, mr. Kx arrberg, is people commuting everyday, because the car is taking care of that issue. But your guy is picking people up and dropping them off at capitol hill. How do you see that happening in that environment. Lets look at it from the network. One of the things that we have expertises in is how to manage thousands of cars transporting people around the city, and making sure they are doing it in an efficient manner. Is a car going to heading if your direction efficiency of that nature. Number one, thats one of the areas of expertise that we can bring to the av revolution if you will to make sure they are operating in the efficient manner, and makeing sure they ae reacting with each other safely to get passengers where they need to go. And so in terms of lack of congestion, this is going to be instrumental to make sure that the gains are made. Mr. Pratt, from my home state, would you like to comment on how safe does it have to be to be safe . We have thinking about this deeply. We feel there may need to be a safety factor multiplying human performance. If a Autonomous Car is lightly it could have happened to us. On the other hand, whaen machine makes a mistake, the empathy is much less. We dont know what the safety factor has to be and what we would like is to work collaborately with government to try to figure out what that answer is, and we worry that it is not one, but it is that the public will not accept if say, 35,000 fatalities a year because of human driving with the public accepting 4,999 because of a machine, and the answer i believe is no. So we dont know what factor needs to be there. Thank you. I have more question, but i am am out of time. I yield back the balance of the time. Thank you. The gentleman yields back the remained e of the time, and he recognizes back the remainder of the time to the gentle lady from california. Many of you have expressed concern for potential patchwork different state standard for vehicle codes. California has been a leader in trying to develop a framework for safe testing and deployment of this technology. I do understand the need for laws and regulations to be flexible, and do encourage innovation and californias norstar is innovation. But i would be concerned about undermining safety and accountability standard which would not only harm the consuming driving public, by Consumer Confidence in your products and services. I think we can agree we need some rules of the road. Can each of you provide your perspective on where regulation may be needed at the state and federal level. Starting here. I would say at jgeneral motos we recognize that if a patchwork were to develop on the technical sides of the issue, that would be an issue for the industry. However, we have also seen some states pass some thoughtful legislation that supports the Development Like michigan did recently. With nhtsa we recognize the state and the government have a role Going Forward and we look forward to working with the government on all levels in rolling out the technology. The way forward approach is what nhtsa has taken with the automatic vehicle policy. It is flexible. It is not traditional rule making which would go very slow, but it is in between. It is not perfect, but i think that it is the way forward. I think federal regulations are needed to both set testing methods and to set the thresholds of what is needed. And until those are in place, the states are going to be competing for those regulations, and in the interim, it is important for the federal reg government to develop regulations that are not contradictory and pave the way for the federal regulations and the policies putt forth last year are a First Step Towards that thank you. I agree with some of the members of the panel that it is the federal government that we believe should take the leading role. To be clear, we totally support the rigorous standard to this. But we think it should be one standard. I want to give an example of what could be wrong and it coming from california where we have a lab. In california theres a requirement that you report to the government what you are disconnection rate is every time the car has failure of a certain kind. Thats not sufficient a bad idea. But that information becomes available. It creates perverse intensive and for companies to make the figure look good because the public is watching and that causes the company to not try to test difficult case but test easy cases to make their score look good. I think it should be deep thought about this issue before the rules are made and we think concentrating that before the federal government is the best idea. Thank you for the question. If i can touch briefly on the patchwork of legislation, this is where ride sharing has a unique experience in this, because over to the last three or four years we have seen the ridesharing going from unregulated to wholly regulated and cities next to each other literally implementing ordinances conflicting with each other. And so you could not pick up a passenger in one city and drop them off in another. And that is a real situation that has been resolved but we have been facing for years. So the concern of the panel in the patchwork of regulations is a real one and one that we experienced recently, and to the heart of the question, i agree with the gentleman that some of the state bills and proposed regulation s ths that we are se we are seeing the proposals that would infringe upon the federal governments, you know, realm and expertise inning are you lating the Safety Standards which is rather dangerous. So if i were going to encourage a state to encourage on anything, it would be to focusing on making sure that they were not infringing upon that which is within the the province of the federal government. I understand what youre talking about, i believe the test that should be testbed for innovation. Other than what you said, are there any specific concerns about californias testing regulations . I live in sacramento, and i live where the governor is, and so it would be kind of nice to have this information. From my perspective the reporting of the disconnection is dwsh. I have heard that, yes. I dont want to agree that the reporting in california would encourage companies to do easier testing. We certainly are testing in a difficult environment and making the data public anyway. Im not aware of the details of the california but it has onerous reporting, and also costly per car, 5 million. I have heard from you and i have run out of time. So thank you very much. Thank you. The gentle ladys time has expired. We now recognize the gentleman from West Virginia for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. As one of two licensed engineer s in congress, this is intriguing and fascinating. I have a series of questions and i dont know with the time frame we cant get through them all, but one of them is that since i have learn ed thed that we were to be having this hearing, i have tried to do some more reading about this, and so far, i dont see anything about the thirdparty certification for Public Safety and putting it over overriding competitive pressures. Do we have a provision to require a third party like the iv v . Im not aware in theres any requirement for third party. Okay. The second are there going to be Global Standards, because i have heard mention that europe and china and are we going to adopt standards that are come probablprobabl are comparable, and is that underway so we could sell American Products to china and other k countries our avs over there . I would i have to say that i our peex over time is that we dont get Global Standards that the regulating bodies send to move in similar, but different details directions. One thing i have not heard is im a little concerned about lack of global standard is cost. No one has mentioned cost up here. What is the projected additional cost per vehicle that could be i guess you could answer it depends on whether you go to level 2, 3 or 4. I understand that. What are some costs projections that were facing. Is the overall goal that it would be universal or it would be an option that i as a buyer can choose not to have auto mated. Dr. Pratt. So the costs presently are high, and if not the tens the of thousands, but many thousands of dollars. And part of the reason that you are seeing to push to see it in the rideshare systems because you can amortize the costs over a higher utilization of the rideshare users, but the incredible rate of decreasing costs in Electronics Industry of scale. Think about the cell phone which rifle some of the best cameras you can professional use in the past now costs pennies to put in the cell phone. We dont know the actual numbers, but we are confident that the cost will decrease rapidly. And so for all of you, maybe at the end, do you see this as something that is going to be universal or something that is always going to be an option for your car . It will start as option and eventually 10, 15 years out, some of the functions will be standard. It will be standard okay. The last, because i heard some very interesting arguments, very heart wrenching and the like, so as the automobile through this autonomous process, would that put us into an Entitlement Program or is this something that is a privilege to be able to have this car . Thats one of the reasons why lyft is intrigue about Autonomous Vehicle because we believe the only way it could be equitably provided to all society is to be presented on ridesharing platform. Thats sound like entitlement. You said that everyone should have this available to them, and of course, that is my concern that it would be. And in the very short time that i have left, i am curious, because everybody has been talking from 30,000 feet, but i dont understand, is somebody going to get into one of the cars, and say they go to level four or five, and they program something in, take me to destination x, and it will get you there, and you sit back and enjoy . Is that really . Yes, that is basically thele goal. As we said, it will take a long time before it gets everywhere for everyone. And again, my curiosity with it. Will you be able to interact with the car as you can see that visually as you are driving down that you will get a phone call or the email or something or pick up the milk on the way, and you have to stop and go get milk, and can you tell the machine to pull into that . Absolutely. And the machine may know the quickest place to get milk and suggest a destination to you. Fascinating. As i said, i believe it is intriguing and as one of the two engineering, it engineers, it is going to be fascinating to follow it, and get the costs down to make it more affordable for more people. And just a comment on the costs. Yes, the systems are going to be expensive to start, and then also, you save the costs on the fender benders, and the cost of the insurance is going to be going down, and the fuel economy is going to the be improved. And also, if you are look at the fuel efficiency, i know from the engineering perspective that people who use the Cruise Control use more gas than otherwise, and i woulds assume that one of the fundamental focuses on this is using a form of Cruise Control on the car, and therefore, i am questioning whether or not this is going to be fuel efficient. It may save lives, but i am not buying yet into the argument of the fuel efficiency. I would add that it is one of the reasons that we are rolling out the technology on the electric vehicles. Selfdriving technology and electric vehicles make sense. I have gone over the time. I apologize, yield back. The gentlemans time has expired and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from the texas for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman, and the Ranking Members for this committee today, because many of vus heard about the selfdriving cars mand wife is the one, because she always complains about my driving, so, but. Yes, we would have to find the ways to find the closest milk. Ensuring the safety of our constituents is our primary concern. What used to be Science Fiction is fast approaching reality. Thats for the 50 years we have seen so many different changes. While the Technology Benefits society like any new Ground Breaking devise. I look forward to talking about this. Dr. Karrberg, you talked about the many approaches of testing the vehicles and the real World Driving experience may be one of the most important tools for improving autonomous Vehicle Safety, and the sharing of data between the large groups of vehicles can improve the overall safety of the group based on the knowledge accumulated by each individual car. You mentioned that tesla calls the fleet learning. Can you tell us more about what fleet learning is, and what it can be play in a role of improving autonomous Vehicle Safety . Sure. Thank you for the question. The idea of fleet learning, what is fundamental to Autonomous Vehicles, computers are design today learn betser ways of performing without being programmed to do so. They have enormous data and using algorithms to improve performance, and the more data into the machine learning, the faster it can improve and the better. So Companies Like tesla are using this so that every experience that an individual vehicle has is being fed back into the system, and the entire fleet can be upgraded continuously, and most of the develops of this technology are using that technique. The question is whether that is limited to, the kind of learning is limited to the individual developer or whether there are opportunities for learning across developers. I agree with dr. Pratt, that kind of data needs to be thought through carefully. But it can quickly better ensure safety. You compare risk of the early Autonomous Vehicle they may not be good drivers, but they will develop in good drivers. I would submit with distracting driving we could all be 15 or 16 yearolds for trying to drive, because we can be so the distracted. The restrictions of the permits are reaimed to reduce the risks for teenager drivers. What do you imagine some of the restrictions would look like whether it it comes to selfdriving cars . It doesnt need to be requirements, but manyof the thing ths that my colleagues ha described such as limiting the driving to commuter roads or low speeds, and there are many ways to reduce the risks and either the likelihood that a crash occurs and that means to restricting the operation to good weather e or reducing the koconsequences of a crash, and these can be sort of the industry developed ideas, and choices or it may be something that is down the line done with regulation to say that these are the ways in which we are going be rolling out, and that is an open question, and essentially reducing the risks to quantify what the risk is an important step. And in your mind, what is the history of the airbag regulation, and the safety regulations have about autonomous regulation, and you have a bur keaucracy that is no effective but may take a long time to correct things. You know, if anything, the airbag regulations tell us that it is extremely complicated. It is difficult to get right, but it is also very important. The airbags were developed in the 1950s, and patented and they were first introduced in hi highend models in the 1970s and not until the 1990s that they were first required in 1999. That took a long time. One can argue that some mistakes were made along the way, because the airbags were not smart. Airbags today, they were designed to protect an unbelted male passenger and the force of doing so would have for example killed someone like me, and now we know better. The difficulty is that it was learned through experience and deployment of the technology that was available at the time. So there is a conflict of getting the Safe Technology on the road, and learning the ways in which it is not safe. So airbag regulation is instructive in that it suggests that we should temper the optimism, and it is that we need to proceed very carefully and thoughtfully. Mr. Chairman, with my one second left, obviously, there is going to be some problems with the airbags, but i yield back my time. Thank you very much. The gentlemans time has expired, and the chair now recognizes the gentleman from florida for five minutes. I will let you get to your chair. Mr. Pratt, weve heard a lot about vehicle to vehicle communication to previous in previous hearings on antonymous vehicles, where does it fit into the blueprint of selfdriving cars . Vehicle to vehicle as well as infrastructure is critically important to antonymous vehicles, we see our own eyes, but the potential is there to use not only the sensors on itself but on neighbor sprevehi in order to see the world better, for example if youre going around a corner and there are some trees or building blocking the view, vehicle to vehicle communication can give you xray vision because you are seeing not only your view but view of other cars, it is going to be very hard to make the level five car, again its a machine thats going to be running this not a human being, so our ability to empathize will be low, so we have to give ourselves every possible tool in the tool chest to deal with this problem. The promise safety benefits of selfdriving cars are significant. Weve already talked about the potential benefits in the Disability Community which would apply to the Elderly Community as well especially in the community i represent the tampa bay area in the state of florida. There are many veterans and elderly that could benefit from this technology maybe they want to get to their medical appointment, so i can see a lot of benefits there. What are some other societal and economic benefits we could expect to see from the deployment of selfdriving cars . Thank you for the question. We often talk about the benefit that left in its current form has financially for drivers but i think one thing that often gets lost in the conversation is how important transportation is for economic upward mobility on the passenger side meaning one of the biggest factors is access to reliable and quick transportation so we have already seen impacts we believe on the customer side just providing Reliable Transportation to work, so if you apply that at a grand scale then i think the Economic Community that it confers is really significant and can really help a lot of people who are in economic need get to and from their jobs that they otherwise would make maybe an hour or two to get to just because they have to rely on insufficient Public Transportation options, also for nonemergency medical transportation, i think the aabili ability to do that a greater rate includes technology into the mix. Its been suggested that the federal Automated Vehicle policy while i welcome the action and show federal leadership it macon t may contain unintended guidan guidance can you comment on that and how the ambiguous challenges can be solved . First of all we commented well on the patch work, it does not deter sufficiently from the patch work, also requirements on reporting on hardware and Software Changes that you do during the course of the testing that is difficult because in engineering you do all the time and report every one of those is practically impossible, so it should be limited to major changes, theres also a waiting period. You hand in your change and theres a fourmonth waiting period, thats also onerous, it also calls for third party certification, preapprovals, its worked for 30 years, we see no reason to change that and we also think that for this, nitsa has its expertise and staffing to cater for on the development so it will not be a part of the potential delays. Thank you very much. I know my time has expired but if dr. Pratt wanted to say something, i dont know mr. Chairman, if its permissible . We agree very much with what the last witness said. Thank you i yield back. The chair now recognizes the gentle lady from california for five minutes. Thank you mr. Chairman. We talked a lot about the need to prevent a state by state patch work of laws and regulations for antonymous vehicles which would slow invasion and stifle this important technology, while i appreciate the concerns about california regulations i think we need to consider the negative impact on the state regulations. My entire life i have seen my state, california, and its over regulation, i saw it up close ten years in the California Legislature and thousands of the most productive biusinesses and citiz citizen flee for more friendly states. Uber moved to arizona after taking the Regulatory Regime less hospitalable. Considering its promise, congestion, mitigation and the ability to move products inland from the west coast ports, it suggested they are siecited as e states pulling back, welcoming regulatory environments for the av, can you give me a practical example where a state or local law impacted lifts atv testing . Thank you very much for the question. I can give you some about the testing, for example as of right now in the california theres only one explicitly theres a proposal that would make testing limited to one part of california and if that legislation were to pass then the aability to test av in different environments and different situations would be extremely hampered. Thats one example but has been introduced and cause for concern. Were not at the point where any of the legislation were concerned about has actually been enacted but seen enough proposed legislation all across the country whether its in massachusetts to california that does raise that concern if enacted would inhibtd our ability to test out and deploy. Thank you very much and i yield back the balance of my time. The gentle lady yields back the balance of her time. Thank you to all of you who have testified here. I spent a fair amount of time reading up on the subject and must commend each of you because i feel that your testimony which i have had the time to read through really does lay out the issues that are in front of us as policymakers in a very thoughtful way so that we can go about facilitates this technology with you to the publics benefit. Each of you i think lay out what the various Public Benefits aneuro from this. I think each of you lay out a little bit differently but nevertheless are we erected or are there regulatory barriers or is the regulatory frame work in place facilitative for your technology to be tested so that we can expedite increasing safety, reducing Carbon Emissions et cetera et cetera . My first question i will lay out to all of you is similar to miss callers, with respect to the patch work which i think most of us think would head in the wrong direction, but perhaps the regulatory language maybe is a little too openended and enables some states to stick their head in a window which theyre not loud to because they should be focused on the drivers not on the vehicle. Are you aware of any reciprocity agreements that facilitate driving selfdriving cars across state lines . I think thats important too because as some of the testimony has reflected you need to test this technology in a lot of different typographical climate and urban rural circumstances in order to know how effective it can be and if you have not engaged in reciprocity agreements is it something helpful to the development of the technology . Go ahead and jump on it first. If i might answer first. We have three sites in the United States. Michigan, california and massachusetts. We do most of your testing in michigan and the reason we do that is because of the different regulatory environments in the three states, so the answer the no in terms of our utelisation of any sort of reciprocity. We also test in three locations as i said earlier San Francisco, scottsdale, and michigan, im not aware of any pre reciprocity agreements. So does that mean it not been limiting . So far we have had not an issue in conducting the testing in those three locations. So we are unaware of any reciprocity between states and also it would be of course very beneficial to maybe be able to test across state lines. It would be beneficial. I guess that would only come about if you had a patch work, if you didnt have a patch work we wouldnt have to address with that. I agree with that. It becomes a problem if a patch work develops. What the congress do to selfdriving cars, it could be related to the data sharing, double edge sword if you will i think was part of the analysis some of you laid out which i find very compelling could be related to some of those issues. As we spoke before i think the federal government really needs to help the states understand that its not in their selfinterest to try to make their own rules and they should leave that to the federal government. The second thing is that the nitsa guidelines were put out as guidelines they were not put out as rules to be fully accepted yet and needs to be work to improve those guidelines and i think we spoke before about particular areas we feel could be improved. A lot of this has to do with understanding the difference between development and deployment. During development its important that there be a very low over head red tape way of making changes, during deployment, thats where you want things to be more official and okay to take more time. Ensuring we do not erect more barriers. Exactly, exactly. Thank you my time is up. The gentleman yields back, members asking to question the question the witnesses . Im sorry. Gentle lady is recognized. Thank you. You know, i think the best way to keep defective vehicles off our roads is prevent the sale of used cars under recall until the recall is repaired. Am i correct General Motors has committed to not selling used vehicles asse certain fieified. Is that also true for your company . Im sorry i dont know that answer . I would really like to know that weve been looking at that. Dr. Pratt. I myself dont know since im head of the research lab but glad to find out for you. We certainly want to make sure that cars sold and also often have some sort of statement they have been prechecked but really also have open recalls are permitted for resale so i would like to hear about that. Thank you very much mr. Chairman and witnesses. Thank you. May i just ask unanimous consent to put comments from Ford Motor Company in the record of this hearing . Thank you very much, well submit that for the consent. No objection. Thank you. Again, thanks very much from our witnesses today. You can see from the folks that were here in audience today its a topic thats on everybodys mind and see where the technology is going, safety factors making sure that folks out there Senior Citizens as we have heard a or folks that might have a disability may have more m mobility to get around and looking forward in the next few years on the roads. I would like the submit the letters by unanimous consent. Letter from the National Council disability, Ford Motor Company, letter from global automakers letter from the auto care association, letter from epic, a little from competitive care association, letter from advocates highway safety. Members have ten additional days to submit questions. And ask witnesses to respond within ten days after receiving the questions. Thank you very much for our witnesses, this meeting is adjourned. The conservative Political Action kicked off this morning just outside of washington d. C. At 12 50 eastern betsy devos will be speaking followed by Reince Priebus and steve bannon, and this evening, Vice President mike pence will address c pack live this evening on cspan. Which president s were americas greatest leaders . Cspan asked to rate our 43 president s in ten areas of leadership. Top billing went to abraham lincoln. Held the top spot for three surveys, three others, george washington, Franklin Roosevelt and theadore roosevelt. And makes his first appearance in the cspan top five this year, rounding out top ten choices harry truman, jefferson, kennedy and reagan, Lyndon Johnson returns to the top ten. But James Buchanan ranked dead last in all three cspan surveys and Andrew Jackson found all over rating dropping from 13 to 17, but good news for out going president barak obama, 12 over all, george bush moved up to 33 over all with big gains in public persuasion and relations with congress. How did our historians rate your favorite president . Who were the losers and the leaders in