Transcripts For CSPAN3 Debra 20240706

Numerous companies and organizations including the National Cable and telecommunications associa, the ad council and the National Cable sales association. She has also been named one of the most of the 100 most powerful women in entertainment. And after the publication of this book, her memoir, i would say that shes also a very accomplished writer. When we read about this book, you hear over and over how it is and an examination, i would say, after so many book discussions that weve had here, this museum that it really is riveting and its so exciting to read about someone who is so candid about life and work, the creator and drive and passion. It takes to succeed and also innovation and improve the innovation and improvise zation and the willingness to reinvent it. Joining us here to talk with ms. Lee about her is none other than Michel Martin, who is soon be the morning the host of morning edition. So i hope and womens History Month and learning more about the book this evening and ms. Lee that youll join me in a warm welcome for debra lee a Michel Martin martin. I think we should bring ms. Debra lee outright. Dont you . Yes. All right. Keep hitting. Be pretty at what it means to me. Ive been thinking. Yes. Well done. That great. All right. We got to give you your flowers. Oh, they match the book, right . Exactly. So thats all reminds me of sixth grade. Oh, really . And i knew all the steps. My girlfriends and i, we would take turns being aretha. You remember them now . Im not going to. You. Well, thank you for so much, t so much t so much to so little time, but also so much knowledge that you dropped this book and havent even had a chance to read it yet. Have any of you have children yet do you agree. So t spelled but knowledge dropped. Good. At the same time. What . Clearly you made some hard decisions in writing this book. So the first was was was writing it itself. The hard decision. Not really. I kind of always knew wanted to write a book. Ive always loved books and you know, when i was little, my dad used to give me the New York Times Childrens Book list at christmas and i could pick out all the books i wanted. So i loved books and guess as i got more into my career, i thought i might write a book. I went, sure, what was going to be about, but i wanted to write a book. And then this audience will appreciate it. But one time at a dinner party, vernon jordan, after we exchanged all night long, he told me i should write a book and i took him seriously. A lot of other people, me, i should write a book, but i took seriously. And then when i down from betty almost four years ago, it like the perfect time was it was it a covered project for was it or were there other factors that made you think now is the time to really share . My story . It was helped by covid, but i started it before covid. I started trying to find someone to help me a book proposal. And so that started before covid, but i was on planes every other week on for corporate boards. I have a foundation. I do a conference so i was busy. I never really thought would retire. But covid helped because, you know, we stopped traveling and i had more time at home in that allowed me to focus on getting the proposal together finding a publisher and, getting the whole process started. So as i said, you know, you spill a lot of tea and you also drop a lot of knowledge. And i want to give weight to both. One of the things that that i think. Have any of you had a chance to actually read the book . Have some of you have it . Have you read it . Maybe you agree with me. But one of the things that really struck me is that you are i dont want to say brutally honest, because is not part of your makeup, but you are extremely honest and direct both about decisions you made and the decisions that were or that were visited you. And i wanted to know if that is a decision that you came to from the beginning or is that something you had to walk your up to . Well, ive always been pretty person. Ive always wanted to help people have come behind me in college was a minority peer counselor and, law school. I was on the board of student advisors, which was basically the same thing. And i always felt like i was pretty normal. And if i could achieve, what i was achieving, people who were also normal could do it. And so i always wanted to women, especially young women, to know i can do this. And i wanted to give them a roadmap. So i had always been about that. And so i wanted the book to be about that. I wanted to be half Business Advice, but i didnt want it to be boring. I wanted it to be half memoir. And my feeling was that if i told interesting stories, then people would remember the Business Advice. And so in each chapter i try to write the Business Advice into the story is definitely not boring. Deborah. Oh thank you for is definitely not boring. I appreciate that. And and. I it to be funny. You know i have i think a good sense of humor and people ask, well, how do you get through all these kind of things . I said, well, i a good sense of humor, so i wanted that to come through in the book also. But the hardest part was finding a publisher who would let me write the book as want it to. And a lot of publishers told me. Half memoir, half Business Advice wouldnt. They said, you got to pick. You got pick one. And i just didnt want to give in to that. And finally found a publisher whos here tonight, Christian Trautmann from legacy lit in. And she believed in what i wanted do and she outbid all the other publishers. And then i was my way. Dont they know by now they cant tell what to do . Oh, i cant tell you what to do. They. Where does deborah and. Welcome home, by the way, because you were not born here. But we claim. Welcome home. Thank you. You were here for many years. Your was here 37, 37 years. And my dad was here. So even though we only i only lived here two or three years growing up, he taught arts at howard, but he was so proud of washington, talked about dunbar high so much. He graduated. He and his sisters graduated from dunbar high. So it always felt like a second home. Even though we were traveling world. So i returned here after law school and, you know, its a little different now. Yeah, its a little different now. We didnt we. Didnt have all this. Well, thank you by way. Yeah. Well, thank you. Because we know that you know that i contributed. So. So. But it is beautiful. This Oprah Winfrey theater is beautiful. One of the things that really struck me, the book is that you have been and first of all, i always to say this is our conversation. Its not just my conversation, its our conversation. So if you have questions that you want to direct to ms. Lee, there be people taking cards. Its press club rules. Were doing press club rules, which that youll write your question on a card. Theyll them up and you know well get to as many as we can in the hour that we have. So start about things that you would like hear from mosley. Theres no filibustering in the Oprah Winfrey theater. Just letting, you know. So im just like you know so so where did things. One of the things that really struck me about the book and is that youve been one of the most prominent women executives for a long time. You achieve that visibility and position early, not as early. I think you should have. But one of the things that really struck me about the book is that you own the fact that a lot of the people shaping your and career were men starting your dad who sounds like a piece of work. Yes, he was. He was definitely a piece of work. Had my career all planned in his head before, knew about it. He always to be a lawyer, but never finished college. So he decided early on i was going to be a lawyer and kind of set me on that path. Even when i went to brown university, he plotted out four years of study for. He got a hold of the course catalog and said, i should either major in chinese because china was going to open up and they would need interpreters or i should be a ph. D. In geology because there werent enough black people in geology and literally plotted out the courses i should take for path. That sounds kind of hard. Yeah, it was hard. I dont really endorse as a parent. Yeah, its really hard to do. Yeah. How did you how did you cope with that . I mean, it seems to me that initially you you gave in and im just bringing up because i was shocked, because by the time met you, by the time of us met you, you were this, you know, getting it done, you know . And i just it so interesting that your dad was such a sort of a domestic dictator. Yeah. Really, really was how he dealt with that. I mean, im not saying in a mean way, but he was very direct. How did you cope with that . Well, a lot of times i ignored him, you know, went my own way. And going to brown was was one of those things. He wanted me to go to yale because they had just started accepting girls, and he thought itd be cute if i went yale. I didnt want to go to yale. Well, they rejected me. So that was the easy one. But i went to brown. And then you know i would listen to him. And if he good ideas, you know, might take them like i went abroad and i majored in chinese coming ideology. That was really a kind of a kick in his face because he didnt approve of that. But then went to Southeast Asia my junior year. But then he helped get an internship while he knew someone who knew someone. So he would come in handy lot. So didnt ignore him completely, but when it came to law school, i told him i wanted i to law school. I told him i wanted to take year off and think about because i really want to go to art school for fashion design. I always want to be a Fashion Designer and he just looked at me and said, well, debra, if you dont go to law school next year, im not paying for it. So was a pretty financial hardship. If he didnt pay for me to go to law school. So and then all the art schools rejected me also because he didnt have something to do that you to rewrite in them letters behind your back. He may have, but didnt even have a portfolio i couldnt draw. So it was kind of a last ditch effort. And your and your rebellion was not to tell him that you got into Harvard Law School. Right. Because i knew if he if he found out, he make me go right. And i wasnt sure i wanted to go there just to make that decision on my own. There was this funny story that i just i actually laughed out loud. I know if people will find it as funny as i do, but your your your significant other during law school and you decided to move in together to save and tell the story about what he said when you went home for thanksgiving and he made announcement to the families together. Right. His family said he said he sat there and listened. You know, we said were going to move together. And then my father had a way of letting you know when he was upset. So he didnt say anything. But he said the first chance he got, he said, dad, where can i see you . In the other room. And so i knew i was in trouble there. And so i went into the room and he said that i had ruined my chances of ever being a Supreme Court justice. By moving in with my boyfriend, i was like, what . And he said he asked me, he said, how many people at harvard law do you think, you know, lived in sin . And i would say i said, you know, 70 , 80. I mean, a of them, you know, and my boyfriend at the time he was at medical school and we both you knew we had this study and. It was hard to live in the dorm rooms and hear people talking about law and all around you. So we decided better for our Mental Health to off campus and my dad just didnt agree with that. So you know you mean because of your trash boyfriend at Harvard Medical School . Wow. I dont like the the nerve of you, but he would be amazed that it took so long for us to get a black female Supreme Court justice, because that was definitely in his plan for. Me but you missed it. Yeah, i know. I messed. I mean, you could have, you know, so so you did the law thing. You went to big law for for a minute, didnt love it . How did you get to be it . How did that happen. Well, i went to big law after clerked for a year and or in the year. Jimmy decided not to run. And Ronald Reagan won. And i didnt want to go into a republican administration. And in the other part of it, there was another part Ronald Reagan won. Oh, you on a hiring freeze and . Oh, i wanted to mention i went to Kennedy School. I hated law school so much. So i well, ill go to Kennedy School and get a masters in public policy. Then i can go in the government. So i waste my legal career, but ill do something thats more around policy. So i thought i was going to do that. Then when reagan won, i said, i am going into government right now. So i went a big law firm after five and a half years at, the law firm, it was time to decide whether i wanted to down and try to make partner, which was usually at seven years. And i in the book about how you know i went from getting excellent ratings on my work to all of a sudden getting not so excellent ratings because it was time for to weed out people and didnt really have anyone they are fighting me. So i started to interview and i by that time i knew i like communicate actions and media. So i started interviewing with companies in new york like, hbo and cbs records. I thought i was going to have to move to new york, but i didnt really want to. And every time i come back to d. C. , i was like, i was really pretty here. You know the potomac is nice. So one day i with bob johnson we were he was trying to get the cable franchise for dc because at this time we didnt even cable in dc and i was doing some work, betty but i was also working on the cable franchise for district cablevision in he and i and the partner i work for, ty brown were down at the city hall and having hearings and they broke for lunch and ty had to go back to office. Bob asked me if i want to go to lunch and during lunch he said, i think betty is at the point where they need an inhouse counsel and he asked me what id be interested and i calmly said, because i figure i shouldnt be too excited about it but it was the perfect job for. Me i calmly said, you know, yeah, i will think about that. Its he tell me to go back to the law firm and talk to ty and and so that was the first inclination i had that that might be possibility in. And i loved it because. It was a black owned company, but also because i could stay in dc, which is what i really want to do, and there were not that many corporations in dc. So thats how like a job for you. Why was it perfect . Well i always love blackberry since i had grown up on soul train and ebony and jet fashion fair, i always went to all black schools until so. I always wanted give back to the community. So the fact that this was a cable network, 100 dedicated to Africanamerican Community was something i was very excited about. And, you know, i guess i was kind of intrigued by programing i watched all four of the channels we had when i was growing up. I remember when fox was created and it was the fourth channel and we were like, my god, we have a fourth channel. And so, you know, i liked everything about it and i like bobs vision. Bob is very salesman and you know, vision was he was going to take over the world with the small cable network. And at the time it had 10 million viewers. We had 80 employees. This one office in dc one in virginia. The programing division was in virginia. So it was a long way away from his dream, but it felt like i was getting in on the ground floor, which you were, which i was interested in, that. And i also felt i could be helpful right. And what was his dream . What . The dream for betty when it started . I think bobs dream was to take over the world with me it is as much as he have going to twitter if he wanted to do that but right right anyway but hes his motto was to have fun and make money. That was the company motto. When i when i joined. Okay. And but he who is very dedicated to the black audience and very political and you know, he saw betty as a way to do news and Public Affairs programing, which he did a lot of early on. And, you know, music videos back in those days were aretha franklin, earth, wind and fire and nothing offensive about that. Lionel richie, you know, there wasnt any hip hip hop videos yet, so but i think he wanted to build betty into one of the most successful black owned companies in the world. He admired what john johnson had done with ebony, with earl had done with black. And i think saw it as as a power base. You know, if he could really grow it into something huge that, you know, it would be power base. So growing its interesting going between the business story the memoir story one of the things that continues to come up is your nice. Yeah, youre nice, right . Thats what people say about. Yeah, well with that being nice was something that you almost in a way had to fight to, be tell tell me more about that like that just sort of the extra ness that was directed at you because that was nice because you were nice or is it because you are a woman . Yeah, i think its a little bit of both. My dad brought me up to be a good girl. You know, we were in my household, our was not to make my father mad. That was that was, you know, an ongoing thing. Dont make your dad. And in and my mother was a homemaker she worked at a hospital as a work clerk also. But she was creative part you she sewed and knitted but anyway i didnt know i was considered so nice until i was appointed as ceo of betty and all of a sudden i got all these flowers and all these notes and the women especially were high in me in the hall, you know, theyre like, oh this is a boys club. We never thought a woman could be ceo. And but i started getting all these notes about, you know, nice people never win. So great to see win. Nice people never win. And i was i was really shocked at that because, you know, nice do the voice is i mean for a executive its its its just kind of. But when as a lawyer to being so busy trying to be a hard nosed so i went i went trying be nice but but i always i guess the way i negotiated the i did deals was to always try to let the other person feel like they had won a lot not bad drew them down, you know, till they had no choice but to do the deal. So youre talking about some crazy that when you first took so were fast forwarding a bit it took you a while be ceo. I mean its not to i mean it was for a startup but some of the extra ness that was directed to you when you first moved into that leadership position, how did you i mean, you talk about, you know, a guy showing up to meetings who would read the paper in front of you while youre conducting a meeting somebody who always wore their sunglasses. The table. How did you deal with that . It was difficult. I inherited it. Be flip and tables by that point. Yeah. Yeah. Now, how did you deal with that. Well it was because bob, you know, after i think after he saw how upset the other Vice President s were vps were when he it because no one knew he was going to announce this new position and you know when he announced it in front of whole company, he could tell that were people who were not very happy. So he asked to see the senior team, asked me to leave office, get out, you know, get out of the room and. No. You know, when i talked to him later on, he told me he told them i couldnt fire them. So that wasnt a good foot to get started on. You know, you inherit a team and but they know you cant fire them. So that you know, stick goes out the window. So and so six months later, bob had to go back and them i can fire because wasnt working out but think you know it was such a shock someone else has hired you and then they come in one day and say, you report someone new. And it was it was it was tough. And i often say it took six years for me to get my own team in place. Hmm. Why . Why did he give you that job as . The chief operating officer for folks are not in corporate structures. What what do you think it is . And i will also say that you were as you recount in the book, you were on the of quitting. Right. Because didnt feel that he was respecting your expertise, your work. Right. I will also say that i think washington is filled with women who do way more than their job title would suggest right before they get compensated it appropriately with salary in title. Right. And so was that kind of the deal . You were already ceo. Oh, you just werent acknowledged as such. Well, i was overworked, underpaid. I had like three job titles, one point. I had so many cards, i didnt know which one to hang hand out. I was Vice President , general counsel. I was publisher of the magazine group. I was head of Business Strategy and business development. And i think even for a week i was cfo. So i was like, so i had a lot of jobs in and i tell the story in the book. I had asked a 5000, 10,000 raise and i was told no that everyone gets paid the same. I was like, but im doing a little bit more than most people. And. I think bob, how unhappy i was, it showed when i win the compensation committee. Its funny when i look back on it because compensation no entire compensation of a publicly traded Company Meets with an executive. So im not sure why bob did it, but it was him and two other members of the compensation committee. And i was the first and last meeting they had with executives because mine went poorly. But and i was asking for what thought was a small amount of money. And they just said no. And i got up from tape, i went in bathroom, i cried dry, my eyes came back out. And the next day i just knew i had to leave because i wasnt being respected, you know, they werent recognizing what i was doing and so that was hard, you know. And i started looking for other things to do and so i think that was part the reason bob offered me the job. The other reason was think he was tired of manager the company so he wanted to step back so the only way he could step back is by putting someone in an operating role. And thats what he did. And you know, he was trying to figure out what he was going to do next. And i just want to remind that if you want to participate, you can send questions or and we bring them in as soon as we as we start getting some was being ceo in your sights then i would i didnt know the position was going to be there none of us thought bob would ever leave we didnt know that that was a potential job when he offered to me you know i had to think about it because like, do i really want to take on this of responsibility . And because it was a big learning curve there, even though i knew a lot about the company. There were a lot of parts of the company that i hadnt been involved, you know, like programing and, advertising and, you know, just this finances the financial part of the company. Even though our ceo a week so you know i knew i was going to it was going to be a lot of work and think i had one child by then i wasnt sure how that was going to work. So it wasnt something i had my eyes on. And for a lawyer, when i had the job as Vice President and, general counsel that felt like as high as i could go in a company. I mean, you know, youre general counsel. And when bob promoted us all, as he promoted us all at same time, then we were evp and whatever. So then i was evp and general counsel, but i still felt like in that in the area where my training came was at the height. So what made him make you ceo . Did you demand it or did he what what made you ceo . Because he was ready to step back from that role at the time. How did the ceo when you finally became ceo how did that. Well, that interest thing and i didnt expect this when was named ceo. Oh people started treating me as heir apparent immediately so so i wasnt aware that was going to happen but the outside world, you know, they couldnt get in touch with bob. They called me and they he was i was his you know, second in command. And so every from that day on acted like i ceo oh were going to that i was going to be ceo now it took me ten years to become the ceo know which i learned afterwards was way too long. You know, im on a lot of the corporate boards and most ceos, if theyre hired from the outside, come in and say, if you dont make me ceo in three years, im out of here because they come as ceo wanting to be ceo. So, you know, i had a very long tenure ceo and then i was made ceo. So when bob left the company and it was after the viacom acquisition john and you know, with the the heir apparent, betty, for so long was innovator you in fact, some of the members of the audience some of the questions not just the bet awards, for example, you know, just a i dont know how to even describe it kind of just is kind of a magical celebration of the culture. Just, you know you helm bet. When the company broke into the internet age with bet. Com on demand, the mobile bet for a long time was the top site for africanamerican on in social media. That position has is no more i mean weve just gotten new numbers that blackberries number one sorry to tell you that but i know so so tell me where that came from. So do innovations of well you know obama is a true visionary and he didnt he never wanted betty to become stagnant to be he never any of us to be satisfied with just being a cable after we went public and raised i think 12 million to invest in other, the question was where else can this brand go . You know, and we opened restaurants and we looked at opening casino and we got into the digital space, as you said, we got in the magazine business. And so it was okay, were not going to rely solely on Cable Television because. You never know whats going to happen with that. And were not going to be over by the promise of programing because we were never convinced that programing would make the affiliate fees go up or the advertising go up. You know, early on we were like were the only one out here. Theyre giving us all. Theyre going to give us. And if we put bill cosby on bad example now, but if we put bill cosby on at the time, he was the hottest thing on television that wouldnt move the needle so that kind of our our training you know whatever the new technology, whatever the new media that we should go look at it, try to take it over and the point was that ebony and black enterprise, essence led us into or led into the cable business. They probably should had cable channels before we did, but they were not paying attention to cable. And then all of a sudden, betty, one of the biggest brands out there and he didnt he didnt want that to happen. So you know, the music videos, the music videos, such an interesting thing to contemplate. You know, on the one hand, music videos were just kind of i mean, you know, my one of my kids is here and there would be like music videos, like, whats the big deal . But i mean, music videos were like the thing. Are you kidding me . Was like, what ticktock is now i tic Tac Instagram youtube all rolled into one back in the day. Am i right . And im the only one. Please dont act like were the only one who does it. Okay . I mean, we watched those things for hours back in the day, right . Youd have to wait until you if you live someplace where the latest dances were not happening, you had wait till summer vacation. So your cousins would teach you the moves. Music videos eliminated all that right. On the other hand, it became this huge sore for you, right . People just infuriated by some of the content, you know. So on the one hand, people are lining you for what youre doing for the culture and what you talk about has. I bet people still do like thank you for what youre doing for the culture. They walk up to me. On the other hand, music videos became this i dont know how would you describe it . Like albatross albatross albatross around my neck. Talk a little bit about let me lets go back for a minute. So i mentioned when b. T. First started videos were, you know, Lionel Richie and they were inexpensive video. They werent very expensive, were high quality, but they were something to put on. They were free for us. A bet because the labels wanted to promote their black artists. And mtv wasnt playing black artists true . People forget that they werent right. They werent playing black artists at all. Then not even Michael Jackson. Okay, im telling you. Right. Talk about Michael Jackson then. Michael jackson. Janet jackson comes and theyre spending. 1000000 to 2 million on videos. Right. And theyre high quality. Theyre gorgeous. People want to see. You know, whitneys coming out. And so you have the, you know, this whole thing where we could put them together and make a a show and when i took over as ceo of bet, our programing was 60 music videos. You know, we had every show in the world planet groove, blah, blah, blah, you rhapsody and but then along came first of all, mtv started playing black videos and. They were fighting with us on getting exclusivity to videos and they won big in cases because they were paying and we werent so. And i always respected this about Michael Jackson. He would never let mtv have a video before us he would give them. He said said is that i respect b. E. T. You know, i respect mtv. Im giving them both to you at midnight on july 16th, whatever it was, or the raunchiness because the raunchiness of some of the videos started to become a problem. So how about so wasnt until hip hop came along or rap as it was called in the early days and, then you first had gangsta rap. We to blur out the guns. Then you had misogyny in video and we had to send them back and hip hop really brought this whole new culture to music videos and young people. It some of the older people didnt in and you know we had a standards in practice and made the best decisions we could with the and pushed the labels much as we could. But then it really became focus point picketing your house, picketed your that for those of you who were down that was like for how long did that go on. Months . Six seven months of every saturday morning. Saturday afternoon. Saturday was the afternoon right about make pick at your house. You know, i talked to the minister who who organized those protests so that you know. Yeah, i interviewed him. Yeah hes still hes got a big church. Olympia, huh . Only maryland and. Yeah, and he, you know, i, he he was like and i asked him, i said, you know, you are you all can look at an interview up if you want. I did some good interviews back it and he was like was this a while ago. Yeah when they was in your house and you didnt listen. I interview. I didnt do i didnt about it and i asked him and i said, you know this, you know, on the one he said, youre polluting the culture. And he said, well stop picketing her house when they take these raunchy videos off. And then other people were like, well but, you know, you werent picketing the house when bob johnson was ceo. You werent picketing his house. So why is it is it do you is it because shes a woman . You think that, you know you know, anyway, so whats whats your take . That is as well as you can. He came. He called, asked to meet with me. I said okay. He came in the security guard. I dont know what that was about and said force rachel. You know, to scare me. I guess. And he said, i want you to take off three videos. And he named a three. And only one i remember is little wayne, little duffel bag boy. And his thing was he wanted me take any video that referred to drug use or make drug use look glamorous. And i said, i cant do because if i take off three videos this month, youre to be back next month with three more videos and, then youll be running betty and that me and im like, im running betty and he said, yeah. He said, well, you dont take them off. Im bringing my whole congregation down to your house and picket. And i was like, well, you know, okay, you know, i rather you bring them to my office as opposed to my personal house because that was safety issue for me. And this time my son had gone away to college was just me and my daughter. And you bring 200 people to my house every picketing were saying i am not a whole i am not a. And you know, that didnt make my white neighbors happy. Well, thats interesting. What are you doing . Oh, theyre beating. You know, this has become this is still an issue because some the Supreme Court justices, people have been picketing at their houses because theyre because of their decisions in roe way they speak. It is yet another. So in d. C. Has the most liberal protest laws in the country. Okay. Because embassies are in neighborhoods. But the interesting thing about this now, i you can admit this, you didnt the videos themselves. So didnt wasnt there any part of you that wanted to take them off like tip drill and the credit card . I did take it the first thing i did when i took over as ceo was cancel uncut. So i did tip drill off and. I had never seen uncut before i became ceo and i said i should watch this tone. It is interesting what im saying is that many people i hear a lot of people, not just young women but a lot of people wonder how they can be in leadership, in situations that dont necessarily align with their personal values. And this is a situation i dare to where the videos that helped to sustain the company. Did align with your personal values so some of them true but i remember growing and i remember my parents hated brown they hate it funky broadway they hate it. So fingers you know they hate it. George in the diapers, you know. So i put myself in that position. Okay, theres a generational thing going on here and im a lawyer, i believe in free speech. But i had to come to the decision eventually. Really, their free speech didnt mean i had to put them on b. E. T. Mhm. And thats when we started becoming stricter and, tightening up the standards. They would bring me a kanye video. I said im not putting that on the flashing lights because it was all about sex and violence and you know, my guys say, oh my god, kanye is going to call you. And i was like, i dont care if he calls. He didnt show up when they were protesting outside of my house in hell, you know. So why am i how how did i become the face of hip hop videos, you know, when theyre the ones making im trying to give them an outlet and trying to work with them to get something in, you know, over that approach had an effect. You know the award shows started being classier hip awards started being classier its still hip hop, still 95 men. I couldnt that but you know its you know you to i said to myself if i have be the adult in the room, then im going to do it. Thats not. I went to Harvard Law School to pass judgment on music videos and the other i did was cut back on the number of music videos we had shows in music videos were online, so you didnt have to sit through 106 and part four 2 hours to see what the number one video was. You can go online and see the video you want it to any time want it. So under my leadership we totally got rid of music videos on beauty and scripted programing became kind of a signature. So were thats what i promise the audience. When i took over as ceo, i promised them high quality, scripted programing. And luckily, were at a point in time where we had the resources. I had to build a team of people who, you know, could produce scripted videos. And we were able switch, you know, would he was known for were going to move to questions from the audience before we do i do want to i want to ask about one of the pain points in the book, which is, you know, the relationship you have disclosed. I mean, a lot of people in this area knew because they saw the two of you together. I have tell you i did not i thought it was a i really didnt. I thought it was just a rumor and another way that people sort of maligned professional women, i dont know why woman of standing whos achieved a leadership that somebody at some point didnt she got it by means other than her day job let just put it that way. Why you i was really fascinated by the way you described it. Is that first of all, i want to establish that the relationship happened before, after you had achieved your executive position. But what made you feel you had to talk about it in the book well for what you just most people knew about it anyway, whether believed it, it was a rumor or not and. I felt like i couldnt talk about my career to it betty without talking about the relationship. So and then i also wanted to talk about it in light of metoo and times up because when that came, i was like, oh my god, im having ptsd is this what you know, this is what i went through. And it wasnt exactly what i went through, but it was similar in. And i found myself in a relationship that was tied to my career that i couldnt out of. And i wanted young women and young men to know about it and know that these things still happen. You feel you were sort of i dont know, whats the word groomed to in that relationship. How would you thats a thats a heavy word. I think it was was probably more intentional than knew. I think it was more intentional than i knew. And i didnt realize that until i went into therapy and i was going to times events and the stories i heard. Soul sounded, you know, very familiar is how these relationships start. So i wont say, you know, it wasnt consensual for period of time because it felt that way, that it was consensual. But its, you know, started under unusual circumstance. I had been at the company over a decade before started and, you know, looking back on it, you know, i just wanted people to know it as you recount the the relationship became abusive in that if you tried to end it, mr. Johnson would threaten you. Did you a lawyer, you didnt recognize that as illegal . Oh, yeah. No, i did. I absolute. I absolutely did. And we would about that. I said, you know, this is sexual arrangement. You know, its not i was like, im a lawyer. I know a Sexual Harassment is right. And every we would have to town Hall Meetings and bob would say, if anyones being harassed, go see and let her know. And if deborah is harassing you to me, i mean, it was just like this was a joke. It was a joke. It was a joke. It was a joke. It was joke. And you know, some people did come to me that were having issues with their boss or whatever. But was it was a joke. And then when i found myself off in the midst of it, i was like, well, how do you get out of this . You know, and and point i want to make is the unequal ness of the power relation, kinship. You know, you remind me of women in the military whom ive interviewed, whove these kinds of relationships. And one of the things thats very shaming to them is they say, you know what, im a warrior im trained to defend the country. Im trained to kill, if necessary. And then this happened to me right. And is there a part of you that feels that way . I mean, you are you were like a warrior in your own way. Youre right. Glass breaker. Is there a part of you that feels like, gee, how did i let this happen . Yeah. And im an attorney. You know, i was the companys general counsel. You know, i had seen things at the company. You know, i you know, that makes me feel, you know, id do you feel that it created an environment in the company, a permission structure, other people to engage in that conduct . I hope not. I hope not. And thats another reason i want to talk about it, because so many women and so many men come up to me and say, oh, i admire you so much and blah, blah, blah, and what you done for the culture and what you did. I bet. And you know i thought it was important to talk about this. How do you feel now that you have. Relieved in writing the book . Was there pubic have you heard from the other party . No. Is. There anything youd want to say to him if you did know . Fair enough. I wrote a book about it. And, you know, i think writing the book i had to come to grips with the fact that this is not a popularity contest. You know, some people are going to, you know, support me and say, oh, thats great. And i have gotten that oh, youre courageous, youre brave. Thank you so much for telling this story. And some people are. But i wanted tell my story and what i did and, you know, as far as im concerned, that chapter is close. We have a question about the how you helped transform the bet awards to be the ultimate award to celebrate and uplift black entertainment. So you have to tell the story about aretha. You must which part her she had some requests. Well you know, she she had a look. She she was going to accept her flowers. But she had she had some yeah, she did. And that was the one that was for walk of fame walk of fame. Right. Okay. She was coming down to get walk honor, the walk of fame program. We used to have once a year and she called me and she was different. Most artists most artists would call they had a programing or they had a music. But she would call me and shed say. Debra so i guess and she wanted a winter and made me chuckle because shes from detroit and i was dont you have a to i mean that was my first thought. And my Second Thought was, well, we can afford a winter wardrobe. You know, were not the kennedy center. She call up her some say i want to winter world had somebody call her and say Missy Franklin would like a winter yeah a little bit well, depending on what she was asking for. Yeah. And thats what i learned from her. If you want something, ask for it. All they can do is say no. You pointed out that she actually taught you some leadership lessons. Yeah, she did. Yeah, i like what she did. Ask for winter wardrobe. Yeah. As for what you want. And let say no, all they can do is say no. And she taught me the respect that women should deserve. Because you know, she didnt. She didnt take any stuff you know, she winters 70th Birthday Party and she had wads of money shes paying a pm agar and pan singers and panda dancers and she want anybody touch her money. And i was like, okay thats a power thing, right . And so she was shes a great lady. Was a great lady. And i was glad to get to know her. But it also made me learn how to say no even to people that are icons. You didnt give her the word, you know, not even a scarf, not even like a and i didnt give her the Harry Winston that she wanted. Oh, okay. I you know, i had a luncheon the day before these events and we would give the honoree, i would give honorees something that they liked like, you know, patti labelle, like jimmy choo and smokey, like. So i gave them a pin flex signed by tiger woods. But aretha heard about this and her request came back that she wanted a Harry Winston diamond watch that was 50,000. And again i couldnt afford it. And and somebody have fired me if i did it. I dont know who at point thats but anyway it taught me how to say no on even to your role models or you know people you dance in the sixth grade we were on the same lines and says, hi, ms. Lee, this has been very pretty some pretty pretty handwriting. Oh, it said, my name is is shara. Think im pretty. Am i pronouncing and im seven years old. Oh, who are the women that inspired you my mom and family . Inspire me to be an astronaut. Wow. So we think were in the right place. So. So who are some of the other women you talked about aretha. Who right. Well, i id say point blank, i never a female mentor and a lot of women have mentioned that to me as something they had to sit back and think and realize they hadnt either. But i so i admired women from afar, like i admired Yvonne Braithwaite or braithwaite. She was in congress and i always like politicians. I admired shirley chisholm. Shes the first person i voted for, for president when i was a freshman in college and bought an unborn right. That was her son, right from brooklyn. And i knew it was a wasted vote. I said, im going to for shirley. I admired constance motley. I admired ross. I always wanted to be diana. If i could have sang, i would have been diana. I so one woman i got to know late in life who i really admire. To the say is ruth simmons and she was president brown and she twisted my arm almost off to get me to come back on board the trustees for brown. I had already served seven years. She wanted me to come back on. I kept telling her i was busy and she called me and, said, okay, deborah, thats the last time im on call you. I have lots of it because i kept telling our ceo didnt have time. She said, i have a lot of ceos, my board. So thats not a thats a reason for you not to do it. And she said and plus, i understand have a daughter whos a junior and we take we look with fondness upon the children of board of directors board of trustees. So i joined the board my daughter had my daughter hired. She was like, oh, my god, she had no interest in. Brown then today or whatever. But ruth simmons, it was is a master class how to manage you know, she managed the trustee board, managed the administration and she managed the students, you know, and brown students dont like anybody but they liked ruth simmons. Shes someone i admire. So, you know, there have been other women whove come into my life and i didnt mention my mother. I always admired my mother. She was so talented and so and she never finished college either. But she would read all the time. She crossword puzzles. She wrote a letter to the president about the donut hole in medicare. One time and she was just smart as. A whip. Whats her name . Delma de. So you can remember her . Yeah. And she . A world class. She worked at Childrens Hospital here. Okay, were down. Were down to last couple of minutes. I want to ask this one more. One last question and then im going to ask you to give us some closing thoughts and youve done a lot of people think, look, just helping betty to become what it is like a premier organization is plenty but someone wants to know what are some of the other things that youve done to expand opportunities for black people, women and people from other marginalized to succeed in the corporate world . And you have. Yeah what are some of those why i try to do that wherever i am whatever room im in whatever you know connection to companies i started company after George Floyds called monarchs collective to try to help to get more people of color women on boards because when i saw that policemans knee on George Floyds death, i said myself that the only way were going to stop this is to create more wealth. So they see us as human beings and not just someone can casually kill, you know, on the street. So i do that a lot in that meeting. Thats you know, im very passionate about that. I started a foundation called leading define, where i bring 200 women together because i realized the higher you get the in a company or organization, the lonelier it is and so i said one day on the way back from the Hip Hop Awards i said im going to get the most powerful women i know together. And were going to talk about issues whether its Mental Health, whether its supporting obama. He was in office at the time, so that has really turned into something magical. And, you know, i to meet with young women and women and anyone else who wants advice and its just its really important to me to bring along the way and thats you know i said one of the reasons i wrote the book so tyler perry or byron allen, whats your vote. So i knew you were in the news business. I should have known. I dont. Well, let me say this. For those of you who dont know, obviously, you know that it was controversial. Some viacom bet. Now it seems like the Company Wants to spin off some its properties incurred a of debt. Yes i was a Business Reporter back in the day and theres a question about tyler perry or byron allen will buy bet or at least get a majority stake with your vote. Youre out. You cant i dont i dont have a vote let me just say why you get to vote. Yes. How has at home with your vote tyler perry you know tyler already producing 90 hours of programing for betty a year hes he has amazing agreement with them and i think this was what he wanted all along so i think hes closer to getting it than byron allen would be even though byron allen claims he has 46 or 15 networks. I dont know where they are, but he claims he and hes doing very well know he bought the web. I know so much for spending this time with us. Before we let you go, do you have some final words of wisdom for us, a charge for us a what youve done a lot for us. What can we do for you . Yeah, thats a great question. I say i hope this audience and people that read my book take away, how important it is to live your truth and to your dreams and, to know that you can be no matter who you are. You can be great. You can be extraordinary. And theres so much for to do in this world. And shouldnt we should not put limitations around ourselves. I never dreamt of being a ceo when i was in grade. I wanted to be diana ross, but i had opportunity. It was great and i other young people to strive for that. And weve been so such a rough time. You know, we had the glorious eight obama years and, you know, hope was alive or whatever. And, you know, then we go into this dark place with poverty and the next administration. And i just young people to have hope and to do what they want to do but be passionate about it and work really hard. You know, that doesnt just come to you, but be about it and and follow your dreams. Debra lee thank you so much for you. Thank alexandra, im so excited to be here with you today. I could not put down the teachers. It