That one of our guests said has been neglected and derided by throughout history. But in her time, the hardings came in as very popular people. Were going to learn more about the trajectory of her time and her husbands time in office and her interesting story that not many people know today. Susan swain let me introduce you to our two guests. Katherine sibley is a history professor at st. Josephs college in philadelphia. Shes a biographer of the first lady. Her book is called first Lady Florence harding behind the tragedy and the controversy. Thank you for being here. Susan swain David Pietrusza is a guest as well tonight. President ial historian and the author of many books including 1920 the year of the six president s. And thats really where i want to start tonight because we think of Warren Harding and we think of teapot dome and the other scandals of his presidency. But in 1920, when he came into office. It was in a landslide. Sixty percent of the popular vote, 404 Electoral College votes. So, set the stage for what brought these people into office and what the mood of the country was. David pietrusza the mood of the country is really bad. And its a year when just about any republican can win. And the trick is to get to the nomination. Tr was supposed to be the nominee. They had the big split in 1912, the progressives are still in tatters. Thats patched up. Unfortunately, tr died in his sleep in january 1919. There are some people who want to fill the bill, leonard wood, who remembers him . Frank louden, the governor of illinois. I cant even remember how to pronounce his name correctly. David pietrusza im always being corrected on it. Hiram johnson, whos just too irascible to reach out forward, which leads you to actually naturally the fourth man, the available man is andrew sinclair, one of his biographer said. Warren Gamaliel Harding because , for the pointg of getting to the discussion in 1920, it was a key element here. So, what happens is they are working in the newspaper and its going very well, but its a little dull for her and shed like to see him get involved in some other things. Kathrine sibley so he does go on the chautauqua circuit and as youve said, he was a very good speaker. He did an Alexander Hamilton oration. He was quite successful. And she thought, you know, he could go for bigger things, so he did. He ran for state senate. He was elected two times in ohio, tried to go further than that with lieutenant governor. Kathrine sibley later ran for governor, it was not successful, but just as youve said he was positioned, he was visible in ohio and by the time of 19 by the time of 1913 when theres a new law in this country which allows senators for the first time to be elected popularly, hes positioned to run. And in 1914, hes elected to the senate in ohio for ohio, i should say. Kathrine sibley and he thus becomes the first popular elected senator from that state and the first senator actually to become president as a sitting senator and, of course, florence, his wife is right there alongside him. And her role is quite significant in developing this trajectory. We could talk more about that. Susan swain well, you write in your book on 1920 that he was himself unconvinced about his viability as a candidate. Even among his fellow Congressional Republicans his support was negligible at the outset. There was a matter of his health and ultimately, he did die early. Susan swain and then there was carrie, Carrie Philips and well learn more about her. Then there was nan and nans baby and there were other women as well, you write Warren Hardings personal life was quite a mess. So, do people look the other way in these days for candidates . David pietrusza in those days . Susan swain yes. David pietrusza i think there are a lot of things which were not talked about. Scandal of public figures was not written about. It unless there was a divorce case, unless something went into the courts. The papers would not touch it and something thats never occurred to me until now. Hes a newspaper man. Maybe hes part of that club and theyre not going to write about it. That may work very much in his favor. But you also see in that era that there are other infidelities going on. David pietrusza there is mr. Weeks, who he appoints the cabinet. He has a mistress. There is certainly some issues about Woodrow Wilson, maybe in the bahamas or bermuda rather before he is president. There is the famous incident of Alice Roosevelt longworth and her child, deborah or deborah which is named actually or she wanted to name it deborah. It becomes pauline, but that is the illegitimate daughter of senator william e. Borah, a very famous guy at that time and then Franklin Roosevelt cheating on Eleanor Roosevelt in 1917. So, the rich have their prerogatives and they take them. Susan swain one of our viewers on facebook asks, how did mrs. Harding respond to the rumors of hardings wandering eyes . Kathrine sibley yes, its a great question. And i didnt i think its kind of fun i think were going to have a little bit of a debate about some of these relationships, this extramarital relationships that warren g. Harding had. He did have this affair with Carrie Phillips, who was woman, they met early on old friends, they were both a couple phillipses and the hardings who all were related as a in a connected way in ohio. And what happens over time is that warren falls in love with with carrie. And florence eventually finds out about this. So, sometime between 1905 when florence gets sick for the first time in 1911, she discovers this affair. And they were still friends and they were still vacationing together and the the caller asks how was this happening and how did florence react to this. Kathrine sibley well, not very happily. And in fact, she asks him to consider a divorce, but warren refused. He knew very much that he needed her partly for the reasons that i alluded to before for his career and in other ways. So he agreed to kind of downplay this affair and in fact, i think, i believe he committed to sort of ending it but, in fact, he did not as it turns out. Kathrine sibley and so, such as by 1920 as he is running for president , it is a bit of an embarrassment. Its been on and off. It hasnt been a very active affair for some years at that point but there are flaring moments of it that came up and down. And because of that, in the end, she is she is essentially bought off by members of the Republican Party and others who come up with funds to kind of get her out of the way, and no, florence was not happy about this at all. And i think there are some wonderful quotes weve read in her diary to get back to this wonderful question where she expresses how the difficulty of dealing with an unfaithful husband like hers was. Susan swain we have one of her diary quotes, but how much of a diarist was she . How much is preserved . Kathrine sibley you know, its a very interesting question. Her diary is not very reliable as far as the dates, but i believe it is an authentic version of her thoughts. It was a small book that was discovered about, gosh, 15 years ago in a barn in ohio and its a list of nostrums, recipes, remembrances by her and these statements that youre going to share with our audience. And so, from what i can tell, there is a very clear sense of her own views and beliefs in there. I think its credible, but its not extensive and its not dated. So its a little bit we have to we have to take that into account when we read it. David pietrusza its barely a formal diary. I think its like in a date book or calendar or something. Kathrine sibley exactly. Yes. Kathrine sibley crosstalk David Pietrusza its catch as catch can. Theres going to be huge gaps in it, but it seems to be real. Kathrine sibley yes. Susan swain well, one quote that we will share to capture her thinking about this is this one. To sanction the inequity of man but demand purity of woman has become an attitude of society. The happy woman is not one who was married the best on earth but the one who is philosophical enough to make the best of what she got. So did she make the best of Warren Harding . Kathrine sibley i think she did. I really do. And in fact because she was someone who saw the potential in him. David pietrusza she went after him. Kathrine sibley yes. She she she saw that he could be someone who could rise to a higher position with her strength, with her backing and i know that sometimes we hear she made him or she made him president and i think thats too thats too simple, i mean, that takes away from his own abilities which i think were not not in absolutely something not there how shall i put this. They were something that could be reckoned with. Absolutely, he wasnt just a pretty face and a senatoriallooking man. But shes certainly had a key role in pushing him into the place where he got to be. Susan swain Steve Murdock on twitter asked, wouldnt his newspaper enemies take shot shots at harding and his infidelities . One newspaper person who did was his own fatherinlaw. Kathrine sibley yes. Susan swain explain the story of amos kling and their relationship and why he would, in fact, in his newspaper criticize his soninlaw. Kathrine sibley yes. In fact, she well, this is a long story. Ill try to make it quick. David pietrusza kling doesnt have a newspaper. Kathrine sibley no, thats right. David pietrusza hes a banker. Hes a businessman. Susan swain but he ultimately doesnt he buy a competing newspaper . Kathrine sibley not that not that i know of, no. David pietrusza i dont believe thats true. Susan swain but i think that maybe what the caller is getting to is that he actually helped to fund an opponent of harding when harding ran for senator. And David Pietrusza yes. He funded another newspaper. Kathrine sibley yes, yes. David pietrusza he funded another republican newspaper in the town to siphon business away from, but, say, call him a newspaper person would would be, no, hes the banker. Susan swain hes the banker behind the newspaper. Kathrine sibley right, right. David pietrusza hes the banker and hes the fatherinlaw and he likes being banker a lot more. Kathrine sibley and there was there was a long history. He didnt like the i know were going to talk later about the history of florences first marriage, which was a kind of a sad chapter in her life, but he did not like her first husband. Kathrine sibley he did not like her second husband. They only really got reconciled later when amos his first wife had died, the mother of florence at that time and he then decided that, well, he would make some rapprochement with her and they went on vacations together and it came back together, but it was a very difficult relationship for, you know, the first thirty plus years. David pietrusza seven seven well, of their life, but the first seven years of the harding marriage there was like nothing. Kathrine sibley yes, it was difficult time. Susan swain David Pietrusza, talk about hardings oratory and how well he was known for it and how it make him as a national personality. Susan swain were going to begin our audio and visual part of this program with an audio clip of Warren Harding in one of his speeches. And then youll learn about the front porch campaign, which is the way that they decided unlike their opponent james cox was traveling around the country to conduct their campaign from marion, ohio. Lets watch. Susan swain americas present need is not heroics, but healing; not nostrums, but normalcy; not revolution, but restoration; not agitation, but adjustment; not surgery, but serenity; not the dramatic, but the dispassionate; not experiment, but equipoise; not submergence in internationality, but sustainment in triumphant nationality. Sherry hall all the action took place on this very porch here. Now, usually during speeches, warren would stand in the middle here on the steps the top step, florence right beside him. And they would wave to the crowd to or parading down mt. Vernon avenue toward his house. Sherry hall but this was a perfect backdrop for the campaign, not only did it show the human side of the hardings, the fact that they did not live in a mansion. They lived in a very normal house most like most of the folks coming to see him speak, they wanted to feature this town as well. Warren himself often said that this campaign was taking main street to the white house. Sherry hall and florence was very much a part of this message. She was a very visible part of this campaign. She was always near him on the front porch when he was speaking. She gave interviews herself to magazines, especially womens magazines. She alternated between being the savvy politician to being the homebody, the wife, the caretaker of the candidate, so she knew how politics worked. She knew the different sides of her that would have to be portrayed as part of this campaign in order to make his campaign successful for him. She is not afraid to wade into a crowd. Shes not hanging back. And she is in the line shaking hands along with the president tobe. And going through hundreds, if not thousands of people standing there as long as it will take to shake the hands and greet people. Sherry hall so, we see a Florence Harding who knows how her husband is going to get to the white house, through the votes. Its very important politically, but she absolutely believes in the people of the united states. Susan swain she seems as good or better politician than a husband. Kathrine sibley yes, absolutely. She is more out there, i say, with her strength. He gets exhausted in some of these encounters. He pushes on, but she continues. And when we think about how ill she was, she back and forth with her illness and nephrites, the kidney ailment, its really pretty astounding. I mean, she would recover from days like that. It would take her sometimes 48 hours with her hands sore and swollen from shaking so many hands, thousands of hands but she had this strength. She was determined to do what she wanted to be accessible. She wanted to be a people person, i guess you could say. Susan swain i want to tell our viewers that we welcome your participation. Were already getting comments as you can see on facebook and twitter and you are welcome to join that conversation. The cspan Facebook Page is easy to follow and theres a conversation underway. And twitter, two ways you can be involved. You can use their firstladies or our firstladies address. Well be looking both of those and incorporating your comments into the program. Here are the phone lines. If you live in the eastern or central time zones 2025853880. If you live in the mountain or pacific time zones 2025853881 and well get to those calls in just a couple of minutes. You cant talk about the 1920 campaign without talking about harry daugherty. Who was he . David pietrusza i think its daugherty, daugherty. Susan swain daugherty, thank you. David pietrusza and hes the campaign manager. Hes the man behind the throne especially the way he tells it. He elevates his influence and power a great deal in the telling of the story and since the other two people are dead very quickly, he gets to tell it long far longer. And he does help harding out. But you also see correspondence from harding where hes telling harry in 1918, you think just because i listen to the guff that people tell me that i swallow it all, well, i dont, ok . David pietrusza and i know exactly whats going on. And harding is in fact an incredibly savvy politician. He is good. Hes an excellent people person. People like him. Even his enemies like him. He just exudes human kindness and this is something which is quite often overlooked about him. And he said, he is a genuinely kind and if you shove out certain aspects of his life, a good person. Susan swain hes very lovable, i think. David pietrusza he pull and but daugherty is a kind of run of the mill ohio politician. Hes been in the General Assembly and he has run for governor, attorney general, all sorts of things but hes a little too shady to make the trip himself. He gets behind harding. He runs across him few times most particularly in florida when he says, i found them. He was sunning himself like turtle on a log and i pushed him off into it. Now, there are a lot of factors. David pietrusza now, did florence make him, did daugherty make him, did harding make himself . And john dean in his biography of harding makes the point that hardings protestations of inadequacy that of humbleness is not necessarily an act, but that harding from the very beginnings, hes a very sharp guy. His academic career is good. He learns things very quickly. Hes giving speeches at the age of four. And so, hes good early and he knows that people sometimes get jealous of people who are good. Kathrine sibley but wouldnt you also agree though that he didnt necessarily want to be president , did he . David pietrusza i dont think so and certainly not with the Carrie Phillips thing hanging over his head in 1920. Kathrine sibley yes. He enjoyed being in the senate and it was his friends wanted him to be they loved him and they he was popular but he really didnt but it just seemed like over time increasingly there was urgings on him and also the situation as i understand it back in ohio didnt look good for him to be reelected. David pietrusza my theory is that and in the big, long letter which he sends to Carrie Phillips regarding the blackmail. Susan swain how did she try to blackmail him . David pietrusza she had the letters. That was not the only letter she hung on to. There were approximately 98 of them which she had. Susan swain torrid love letters . Kathrine sibley yes. David pietrusza not all torrid love letters, but a lot of them were. And i wont endeavor to quote them at all. I will say this, often in reading history and stuff. People skip over to the dirty parts. Skip the dirty parts in reading these and read the rest of these. Hes a very good writer. Kathrine sibley yes. David pietrusza hes very good. And theres a certain charm and skill to his language skills, but shes got the goods of him. This is the smoking gun. These or this is the blue dress to the nth degree, ok . And shes got it. And she and her husband in 1920 because she just finally became so incensed at him, harding that she tells her husband and they determine that they are going to put the hammer to this wanttobe president and theyll drive him out of office or theyll drive him bankrupt. Susan swain the party responded by helping to deal with the Carrie Phillips situation. What did they do . Kathrine sibley well, they offered money to her and that seemed to take care what was it, its like 5,000 in the money of that time . David pietrusza well, they made the offer 5,000 a year. They give i think they give like 25,000 upfront and an all paid trip to the orient. Go far away during this election campaign. Her and her husband and the excuse is that hes in the dry goods business so they have lots of dry goods out there. Kathrine sibley and he tried to harding tried argue with her, try to suggest to her, look, i can do some good for the world if you let me carry out this president ial election. Exactly, but, you know, there was this David Pietrusza if you dont ruin me and yourself. Kathrine sibley there was this disagreement there. So, yes, so shes pretty much out of the picture at that point. And i argue thats sort of the end of this relationship and certainly, i think most would agree, but i would also argue whats the end of all the relationships. Many might suggest there were other relationships, nan britton, other names have been heard. You probably heard the story about the president s daughter, but i dont find that really credible and if perhaps your viewers are interested in hearing more about this, we can talk about it. Susan swain there was a child on the other side. Florence had been married once before and she had a child. How did the divorce came in particularly the childs father. Kathrine sibley yes, exactly. Susan swain was that an issue in the campaign . Kathrine sibley you know, its very interesting you mentioned that. This is kind of a sad story. She married early on to escape her kind of overwhelmingly powerful father. We alluded to that a little bit earlier in the show. She we dont actually have any record that she literally married this man next door, pete dewolfe, but she certainly eloped with him and they had a child and he was someone of course who had a difficult past and a difficult future. Kathrine sibley he left her and she he was a neer do well, he was a drunk and there she was trying to raise his little boy marshall on her own. In the end, her father steps in and says, you know, you cant obviously do this. I will take over. And she was trying though. This is a very interesting part of her story. She was a single mother who taught piano. She gone to a conservatory and since then that issue she was and that story marshall grows up, he has children, a wife, et cetera, and also has a sad future later himself and doesnt live very, very long after his Young Children have born. They are its an interesting story because its something that could have, i think, humanized the hardings even more. These little grandchildren running around the white house but she doesnt want to really acknowledge this. She plays it down and back to our conversation before, this was an issue she didnt want brought up in the election and she really tries to downplay it. And i have not found much evidence that the children were ever invited much the white house or that that story was although important to her and she was in close contact with her daughterinlaw, there wasnt much of a public visible presence with these people. Susan swain well, haley hun asked what was the whole story and why on facebook, why Florence Harding didnt raise her son. Kathrine sibley didnt raise her son. Well, it had much to do with this issue of her being a single mother and not a very wealthy woman despite the fact, of course, that. Susan swain not the scandal of being there was more that she didnt have the money. Kathrine sibley well, yes. I mean, i think that she probably could have done that, she was trying to. But, yes, i mean, there were those kinds of issues at that time thats certainly an important point the viewer raises. But the interesting thing was that when she married warren, warren accepted marshall as well and marshall seems to have lived partly with them partly with his grandfather. So it was like kind of an interesting relationship that they worked out. David pietrusza she just doesnt seem that maternal. Kathrine sibley i would disagree with that. David pietrusza i think that i think thats part of it and in terms of the story of i think your original question had to do with the 1920 campaign or something and does that become an issue . And her being divorced, certainly divorce was not in favor at that time but its a case of mutual assured destruction. And mr. Cox James Middleton cox is the first divorced person to run for president. He had been married once before. And then he his wife, i think, had mental problems or something and then he marries again. Theres no great scandal in it but there is kathrine sibley but she was a much younger woman. David pietrusza yes, but so, either not about to bring that up, but if they had brought up, the immense hardship which florence had to go through and she spent a great deal of time really not dealing with, until she gets in the white house and shes sick the country does know about that. They dont cover it up like Woodrow Wilson or anything like that. David pietrusza but there could have been more sympathy generated for her because her life is so tremendously hard, take away the infidelities, but she comes from the richest family in town. She has to go and live elope with this fellow when shes pregnant at the time of the marriage or nonmarriage as it was. And when she gets back to town, when she is abandoned, it is on Christmas Eve and she has to hitch a ride, beg a ride on a train on Christmas Eve to get home. David pietrusza and even then shes afraid to go see her father and must break in to an abandoned home to spent the night and then sees her father and its no, no, i will not help you. And then finally a deal is brokered after quite a while that, i will take your son but not you. This is like way down east. This is this is like d. W. Griffith and lillian gish on the ice floe even with the Christmas Eve thing. This is this is real 19th central melodrama and it happened to her. And this is a very hard life. The illness, this this whole series of things and in that way, shes a very sympathetic person because shes a survivor. Kathrine sibley i think youre absolutely right. Susan swain first off with phone calls as bill watching us in littleton, colorado. Hi, bill. Youre on. Bill hi. Thank you for taking my call. I have always thought that Florence Harding was rather misaligned as a first lady regardless of the scandals in the administration. I think she was probably very opinionated and, yes, i think she was very bossy, but the but the horrible rumors that came and im sure youll discuss them later with gaston means and everyone else that she placed in the president and this other stuff, i think she was probably in the top 10 of first ladies because of her accomplishments and the amount of firsts that she had. Thanks again for taking my call and i really appreciate you, susan , and your guest for the good job theyre doing with florence. Thank you. Susan swain thanks so much. We cant leave the 1920 campaign without a very important point because weve been making note of it all along the way. This is the first election when the first ladytobe can actually vote for her own husband as a candidate. How important is the womans vote in 1920 . Kathrine sibley it was very important. In fact, its interesting. The number of women the number o women voters by in 1916, there was still a large number of states allowed women to vote, but by 1920, the number of actual voters jumped from Something Like 18 million to 25 million because women were voting. She listens closely to many who come to the white house and the vote itself is a moment of real triumph to her. Himtraveled 20,000 miles to. I mean, there are number of problems they face during the campaign, of course, some of the scandals weve alluded to but she is very much excited about womens possibilities. Theres some quotes i think that you can perhaps allude to or we can talk about later where she just talks about how thrilled she is to see women succeeding, women active in politics, and wanting to cultivate that very much. David pietrusza they break the vote down by sex officially in illinois kathrine sibley yes. David pietrusza in 1920. And i believe the Harding Coolidge team does very well. And also, you also see that year where its an advantage the womens vote is an advantage to the republican. You see precincts in massachusetts where the immigrant areas do not do as well. And it was in fact the Republican Party which puts the amendment through. David pietrusza the south is not particularly into it, neither is the traditional immigrant cultures. It is in fact the more native american or older stock rather, republican areas which are more interested in putting suffrage in. There is more republicans in the senate or in the house of representatives who go for it or in the state legislatures. So, its the its something which i think boosts harding that year. And hes a hell of a lot looking better looking than james cox. Susan swain one of the things to note about this, this was the first president ial election that had radio coverage of the results, kdka am in pittsburgh reported the Election Results across the nation. Also i want to bring in two other points before we leave this period of time. First of all, Florence Harding liked astrology and it was, to her, a very important way of getting information, gathering her strategy, so she had a relationship with a particular astrologer in washington. Who was she . Kathrine sibley yes, madame marcia. And indeed, she wasnt alone in this. There were a number of other senate wives who visited marcia and it was it was kind of an interesting period of time because we might think, oh, this is a long time ago, lots of people believed this, but i think if anything people were probably more criticized who were following astrology than perhaps even now that now we have sort of a broader understanding of spirituality and other kinds of interest. Kathrine sibley but nevertheless, she found this extremely important, and this shows up in her diary that we talked about earlier, it shows up in some of her writings to her close associates. And of course, madame marcia told her as some of your viewers may know that harding was going to die if he were he was going to be nominated and she even had pretty much the moment that was going to happen but he was going to die in office. Kathrine sibley and she nevertheless, another sign i think of florences strength, she decides all the same that shes going to be backing him to the hilt and making sure that this happens. But it does seem to have a very uncanny interesting effect on her relationship as a first lady, something we dont see again until nancy reagan really. David pietrusza well, we also see it in 1909 the jewelers life in washington. A mrs. Galt goes the same madame marcia and get the same prediction which seems rather farfetched to her but then she ends up as the second mrs. Woodrow wilson. Kathrine sibley thats amazing. I didnt know that. Susan swain where is madame marcia when you want to know your future today . Cathy in rockville, maryland. Hi. Youre on. Cathy hi. Were really enjoying your show. I was wondering why mrs. Harding wasnt well liked but respected . Kathrine sibley oh, thats an interesting question. She youre suggesting that her her likeability is understood not to be very high but her respectability is higher if i understand you correctly. Yes, and i its quite interesting. This gets us sort of into the whole discussion of where she falls as a first lady. I dont know if youre necessarily going there. But she has been i think many its interesting youd mentioned early that she wasnt very maternal. Kathrine sibley now, i actually would disagree with that. I think if her relationship with the newsboys and some of those men around her, the young men who worked for her. But kind of on that same vain though, i think theres a sense that perhaps she was kind of a hard person to be around that she could be a little bit strong and perhaps difficult some people might have said. More kind of a yin and yang with her husband who as you said was so lovable and so kind. Kathrine sibley but i actually have found in reading her papers and looking at her her to be much more likeable. I think theres there was a kindness about her, there was a caringness, she had many, many causes that she believed in most, most passionately animals, prisoners, especially women prisoners. Other kinds of issues, we cant talk more about that, but i think she actually should probably be both respected and liked. Susan swain Sheldon Cooper on twitter says, was florence an early day nancy reagan by using washington clairvoyance to influence activities. I think youll find that there are a number of aspects of the harding story that connect with one or the other more modern president s as we go along here. I also want to bring in an unhappy part of the 1920 campaign and that is accusations about Warren Hardings heritage. David pietrusza right. And that goes back to the friction between harding and his fatherinlaw, amos kling, that the rumors had been going around that part of the country for a while about the harding family. And the theory now is that that arose because the hardings were very fervent abolitionists and had worked on the underground railroad. And when you did that, then people started rumors about you. And the rumors would be that the hardings were part black. David pietrusza and these rumors were floating around. One of the reasons why amos kling doesnt want her daughter marrying harding i think is he he doesnt trust her judgment in men, particularly after the first marriage. But also he believes that harding is part black and hes pretty vociferous about it. And i wont repeat his language but he goes all around town saying what he thinks Warren Harding is. Finally, he gets used to harding, but these stories dont go away and theres a fellow named chancellor, whos a distinguished fellow, professor, graduate of amherst, went to all sorts of colleges, ran the dc School District at one time. Kathrine sibley a historian even. David pietrusza yes, a historian and author, a very, very big publisher of, respectable books but a thoroughgoing racist. He switches from republican to progressive, to democrat. Hes at the 1916 Democratic Convention. And what becomes obvious that harding is going to be the nominee and the president , he becomes obsessed with hardings ancestry, goes all around collecting all these stories. And basically, my theory is that and they go all around the country. David pietrusza there are handbills, a quarter million copies of this handbill alleging harding as black is seized in San Francisco all across the country. David pietrusza now, how do they get there . Its not from this its not the lone crackpot, ok, hes got help. I believe it was the Ohio Democratic party, not wilson, not cox and not cox for a very interesting reason perhaps because theres an interview with the cox family during the Democratic Convention in the 1920 and they say, oh, warrens one of our relatives. He used to come visit all the time. Because coxs mrs. Coxs maiden name was harding. David pietrusza so, you dont want to get the story up and running if youre mr. Cox because maybe that means that your children have harding blood which means they have other sorts of blood. Susan swain Florence Hardings nickname whether affectionate or not, was duchess. And were going to learn a little bit more about how she earned that nickname. Weve alluded to her role of the marion star were going to learn more about that in our next video. Susan swain sherry hall now, this key is a very special key. Its him , so it fits in your pocket. You can pull it up, so thats pretty unique. Mr. Harding carried this in his pocket for almost 40 years. It is the key to his newspaper building, the marion star. And when he was the official owner of the marion star you cannot speak about the marion star about brining florence into the picture. She managed the books. She headed the Circulation Department for 12 years. And it was a very much a joint enterprise between the two of them. Certainly, a sense of pride. Something that was kind of their a little baby. Sherry hall so, id like to take you all into the press house museum on our side to show you some more things connected to the marion star. Let me show you whats in here. Sherry hall mrs. Harding kept the books at the star. This is an accounting book. This is in her handwriting and shes keeping track of the money going in and out. Warren worked this editorial side. She is running the business, but she is keeping the books. She is running the Circulation Department. She is assembling newsboys and starts to deliver Home Delivery of the newspaper for the first time. So, you dont have to go to the Newspaper Office to buy your newspaper, you can have it tossed on your front porch. Sherry hall also, in this case, we have the time card stamp from the marion star. We also have a stamp on the marion star as well. Also a picture of the marion star building at that time, that doesnt stand anymore. Florence harding had a very businesslike mind. Shes a little bit out of step with other women in her time period because of that. Her father was an excellent businessman and taught her a lot about keeping books and about mortgages and other real parts of the business world, things that most women wouldnt have had an interest in nor would anyone have taken time to teach them as well. Sherry hall this really sets her up nicely to help warren at the marion star because he frankly needs some help keeping the place afloat. And he finds it difficult to hound people to pay their bills, she doesnt. She doesnt shy away from that at all. So that really frees him up to do what he does best which is the editorial product, the relationships with advertisers in town, all those things that he does best. So, it is a winwin situation for the newspaper and really works well for the two of them. Susan swain i want to take a call from david in mechanicsville, virginia, whos been waiting and then well talk more about the experience at the marion star. Hi, david. Youre on. David hi. This is a great program. I just finished a book, i guess, couple months ago called the teapot dome scandal, very good book by mccartney, i believe his name is. And anyway, it begins with an individual from oklahoma who, i think, donated a tremendous amount of money to hardings campaign initially, really saw harding is being the man for the 20s election. And this individual is rather a profligate, i think. He enlisted a nephew to marry a woman who became his mistress and bandied around the country with her. However, when it became evident that he wanted to be, i believe, the secretary of the interior and they were all set to do that, to make him secretary of the interior until the duchess put her foot down. Apparently, this individuals wife was a friend or perhaps a relative of florence kling. And she made no Uncertain Terms to president harding firm a Firm Statement that if he were to come to washington, this woman would not accompany him. And apparently, one night, he had the the individual, the oklahoman in question whose name escapes me, im sure you all know it. David pietrusza jake hamon or hamon. David thats it. Hamon, thats it. Delivered the bad news to his mistress and she and instead of passion shot him and they tried to cover it up but he eventually died. I think that kind of portended what would happen along the way with with the administration and the lust and quest for oil. Susan swain thanks so much, david. David . David pietrusza ive seen a couple of versions of that story. One that it was hamon who gave the money and it was hamons wife who gave the money. And the reason why hamons wife would give the money was to get him back to washington without the mistress, ok . So, wheels within wheels here. David pietrusza the teapot dome scandal is very interesting because what we have is a fellow albert fall who was a colleague of harding there was nothing no great reason to be particularly suspicious of fall in the interior department. He was popular with his colleagues in the senate. There were no issues raised. But he needed the money. He was land poor as they say, he had a big ranch, huge ranch. He had made a lot of money through his wifes inheritance. David pietrusza but he needs the money and he cuts these deals with Harry Sinclair and with a fellow named doheny and huge amounts of money, there are some cattle which are shipped in from new jersey which the neighbors become concerned about. At first, the case goes nowhere. But it all unravels. He is convicted, becomes the first cabinet member to go to jail, thats in 1931. David pietrusza this case is a very slowly unraveling case, but sometimes that drip, drip, drip can hurt the reputation of people more than if its just over and done with. And these things drip, drip, drip with harding after his death whether it was the nan britton book or the indictment of fall or the indictment of people in the Veterans Administration or the alien Property Office or his attorney general. Kathrine sibley yes, but it isnt clear that harding knew, i think, fall was doing anything wrong. David pietrusza oh, no. No, i dont think he did at all. Kathrine sibley and i think the book that the caller is calling about does suggest, i believe, that the hardings were somehow aware of it. And i dont think theres any credible evidence. David pietrusza i would say absolutely not. And i and to make a larger point, i dont think theres any credible evidence that harding is involved in any of these scandals at all. Kathrine sibley no, not at all. And in fact, the one he found out about while he was the president , the forbes, he insisted he resign, so. David pietrusza forbes, hes with the veterans affairs. Susan swain and well have more time to get to these scandals later on. We are in her preparation years in marion, ohio. And i would like to ask a bit about how important it was. So first of all, she seemed to favor women reporters. Kathrine sibley yes. Susan swain and she hired the first woman reporter in the newspaper. How important were the skills that she and Warren Harding brought in dealing with the press to their success in the campaign . Kathrine sibley oh, i think i think they were very important. I mean, certainly, they were people who used to working in the newspaper business. Florence wasnt involved in the writing end of things but as weve heard she was involved in the business end and that kind of savvy and organizing skill was very useful later. Susan swain but she liked reporters. Kathrine sibley she did. She absolutely did. In fact, she was loved by them as well. She when she was in white house, she would invite them to come in especially the women reporters who cover the sort of Society Pages on the various functions that happened at the white house, so she would have them in to see what she was doing, how the tables were laid out, how the flower arrangements were, what the gardens looked like. And this was very popular. Kathrine sibley the reporters really gravitated to her. And i think its another point that were kind of connected to what were just talking about that they were very popular in the white house in part because they could deal so well with the press. And in fact, during the campaign, the press was used extensively. They were very media savvy, the hardings. Kathrine sibley and of course, some of our viewers may know that they were close to this fellow, mr. Lasker who was the van camp pork and beans person. Hed sold pork and beans for that company. And so, they in some ways were able to use that in for that kind of approach to sell their campaign. They shared pictures. They had recordings. And all of that played very well with the press as well. Susan swain its a good time to also before we leave the subject talked about how they brought hollywood into the campaign. Kathrine sibley yes, yes. Absolutely. So you mentioned the gishes and d. W. Griffith because of course they came later to the white house. The and of course, the gishes, the gish sisters came to the front porch as did al jolson. Its interesting today to think about a republican candidate with all this support from hollywood. This is not what we perhaps would have expected, but at that time, they were very, very popular in hollywood. They love the movies. They showed movies in there and in the white house extensively. And this was something that they really, really gravitated to, the hollywood crowd and that kind of celebrity culture florence really grooved on that i guess you could say. Susan swain Janet Anderson on facebook writes, on struck by the depth and capacity of mrs. Hardings comments about women and men in this era, how big is the womens moving in the Political Campaign at that time we talked about that. But then she asks, what issues were there beyond the vote for women at that time . David pietrusza in the election . Well, certainly, the big well, its always the economy and the economy is very bad in 1920. Theres tremendous unemployment. There is inflation. And there are strikes ravaging the country. So the country is a mess economically. Theres all this dislocation location of veterans coming back and causing all sorts of problems. But also the league of nations is the big issue that year. Susan swain oh, women as well . David pietrusza well, for everyone, i think. Because you dont want another war, you dont want america to be dragged into things. And the person of the hardings who is the most vociferous against the league of nations was not warren, its florence. Florence is really the hardliner there and who else is a great hardliner at this time against the league of nations but her friend that really nemesis it seems, Alice Roosevelt longworth, theyre very, very hardline against the league of nations. Kathrine sibley if i could add one other briefly issue that galvanized women harding signed into law, something called the sheppardtowner act, which brought maternal and Child Health Clinics throughout the country and that was something that was of course a very it was a shortlived initiative, it was sort of ended by the end of the 20s but nevertheless its set up this whole new role for women and social workers and others and it would be carried under the new deal. Susan swain what we also should mention prohibition which was brought into the constitution because of the womens Temperance Movement. Kathrine sibley yes, exactly. Susan swain so, what was the feeling of the country about prohibition by the time the hardings came. Was it popular . David pietrusza it had just passed. It was going into effect. He had voted for without any great enthusiasm. As we know, he would take a drink or so but as edmund starling of the White House Secret Service said hed take one shot, it would ails and that would be it for the night. He was not a heavy drinker despite some reports. I dont think those are true. David pietrusza but it is the women and it is the Temperance Movement of the women which largely puts prohibition in, i think more than the man. They see the men getting their paycheck on a friday night, blowing it in the saloons leaving them hungry, often going to women of the night and bringing things home was not good. And the saloon was established as an evil place. David pietrusza now, we see that this gender gap exist even at the end of prohibition when its coming in and when its going out. But you see that the numbers where Franklin Roosevelt start to tip down and whether he gets in 32 his numbers from the private democratic pollsters go down so that the women favor prohibition and that would be one of the big issues for them. Susan swain dave in oceanside, california. Hi. Whats your question . Dave thanks for taking my phone call. Ive read that one of Florence Hardings favorite causes was taking care of veterans especially the young veterans after world war i. I was wondering if our experts had any comments on her efforts with veterans and if there is an enduring legacy from her efforts to help veterans . Kathrine sibley yes, its a great question, and were going to talk later perhaps about also for other causes too but that was very much of a passion interest for her. Before the war, of course, shed been involved with some of the other senate lives and, you know, various things to help out soldiers, so she always has an interest in that. Kathrine sibley but because of her own illness, her kidney ailment, this made her, i think, particularly sensitive to the suffering of veterans after the war. I mean, there were many, many people going around in wheelchairs, with limbs missing. Kathrine sibley she would invite them to the white house. If she saw some veteran walking along the street, you know, hobbling, she would stop her car and make sure they had a ride. She was passionate about veterans and their causes. She would go to the hospitals. Kathrine sibley i think later we might see a clip about a special item that came to her from a veteran. So, this was for a cause, very, very close to her heart and she was particularly disheartened when it was discovered that there was a scandal in the Veterans Bureau, another new initiative actually of harding. He brought in and created a Veterans Bureau for the needs of the returning veterans. Kathrine sibley and unfortunately, the man he chose was an old friend from the senate. Mr. Forbes turned out to be a real crook and he stole many of the goods that were supposed to go to the Veterans Hospital supplies. He sold them cheaply and made money from kickbacks and a real scandal. Susan swain lots and lots of money. David pietrusza actually forbes was a wilson appointee running pearl harbor in hawaii and they ran across him in one of the trips and he flattered, flattered her shamelessly. And so, she in fact was the person who said, warren, you should appoint this forbes fellow. And her other great friend, dr. Sawyer took an immediate dislike to forbes, always hated him. David pietrusza and it was, i believe, sawyer who brought the rumors to Warren Harding of the thefts which were which are completely egregious in the Veterans Hospital. I think when you talk about your teapot dome, you talk about whatever daugherty or jeff smith did in the justice department. I think the great shame of the administration is what they did to the veterans. Kathrine sibley yes, but i think when florence found out David Pietrusza and even in terms of money. Kathrine sibley right. When florence found this out that she absolutely, you know, she was even more forceful than harding. He was always a little reluctant, i think to turn hardly hard heart on his old friends but in the end, of course, he did have to accept the resignation of forbes. But yes David Pietrusza yes, he sent them out of the country. Kathrine sibley yes, absolutely. Susan swain kathrine sibley, while you were talking about the veterans we saw some film clips of the veterans in wheelchairs at the white house being accepted. Garry robinsons says some credit florence with creating the photo op to support causes. Was she in fact responsible for the photo op . Kathrine sibley well, its very interesting. She was certainly the first first lady to use photography in these opportunities as she did. Many of your viewers may now theres a particular picture of her with some filipino women who came looking actually for independence for their country not getting it, but it was a wonderful photo op, she liked to do this. She also, of course, have this very photogenic dog called laddie boy and he was featured, part of her whole interest of course in animals and Animal Rights was sort of also put forward by these photo ops with laddie boy. And absolutely again, i think it ties into our discussion of hollywood and the celebrity culture that was so much part of her. In her own way she had she wore a neck clasp around her and it became popular. Many people wanted to copy this. It was called the flossy cling. There were there was a harding blue color that she wore. I dont know if this is actually close to it. It was a color that she wore and people called it harding blue in her in her honor. So, again, i think, yes, absolutely, the photo op was her thing. Susan swain now, we think about president s with and first ladies with dogs and the dogs become part of the personality of the white house. We remember last several president s have done videos of their dogs and the like, but it was actually the hardings that made a celebrity out of laddie boy for the very first time even though the roosevelts had had many animals in the white house. David pietrusza well, they had quite the zoo, but laddie boy which particularly popular. Im thinking now of a picture of florence shaking hands with laddie boy, but even before that, you know, shes the first first lady or first candidates wife really to go to a convention and campaign for her husband and to be accessible to the press and shes not just there as an ornament or but shes very effective. David pietrusza shes sizing up the strength of the delegates, shes doing all things a man would do and did we really talk about i dont think we talked about that how her father had wanted a boy. We skipped over that. Kathrine sibley right, right, thats a good point. David pietrusza and said, well, ill just raise her as a boy. Ill let her do all the business things that men do and here in the 1860s. And so, she learned how to run the hardware store, make the loans at the banks, do everything a male business person could do, and that what gave her the strength to run the marion star which how small was the marion star when they got a hold of it. So small. It was called the marion pebble. Kathrine sibley it was. David pietrusza and so but she doesnt have to learn how to do it. She already knows, she can hit the ground running when Warren Harding checks into that sanitarium and because harding not only has physical problems. They both have these are two people who physically should never go to the white house, ok . David pietrusza she has that nephritis and shes laid up for months and months literally dying. Its really a horrible thing that the pain shes in. They say in one of these things, the pain is so intense. Shes like digging her hand in and making a fist and it goes in so deep. The nails cause her to bleed, thats the intensity of the pain. Kathrine sibley it was actually her doctor, it was joel boone, he was holding her hands and she was so so and this was this very interesting point because she was a believer in this french sort of psychologist, its justexactly, and mind over matter. And she read his book and she was absolutely determined right to get better. She had that strength and i dont know if it was being raised as a sort of quasi man, but certainly its interesting. David pietrusza and a great rider. Kathrine sibley yes. David pietrusza she was a great horse rider. Kathrine sibley oh, absolutely. Outdoors woman, horsewoman, absolutely, that was wonderful great regrets in the white house that because of her nephritis she wasnt able to ride the beautiful horses that people gave her. David pietrusza harding is a horseman too and they both love animals and they hate any cruelty to them. Susan swain we learned in our last program on the wilsons of course about the president s great illness and the closing down of the white house during the last year. In fact, the wilsons put sheep on the white house lawn as a way to suggest austerity during the war. But it also kept people off of the lawn of the white house. The first thing that the hardings did when they came back came to the white house was get rid of the sheep and open up the white house. What was the public reaction . Kathrine sibley it was so positive. In fact, they already knew this was going to happen. They had heard about this during the campaign. People were excited, they said speed, speed the day, right, when florence comes into office and of warren, too, of course. This is going to open things up. Kathrine sibley but i mention them together because even the New York Times talked about there will be four shoulders coming in, there was a sense that they would be sharing the burden and yes, this opening of the white house was an absolutely a refreshing moment. People now could come on to the lawn. The handshaking that we saw on the earlier video is happening every day that they are there. Most days, if shes up to it, hes out there shaking hands, hand after hand. David pietrusza yes, theres a story about those sheep that she is walking by the white house when warren is still a senator and wilson is in the white house and the sheep are there and she sees the sheep, you know, grazing and the police are like guarding the sheep or something and shooing the people away from the white house and she kind of gets nervous and trips and falls into the mud
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