Transcripts For CSPAN3 Hearing Focuses On Dam Infrastructure 20170303

Good morning. I call this hearing to order. President trump has made impr e improving our nations infrastructure a top priority and this is to highlight our infrastructure needs. It is critical to our nations prosperity. In personal meetings i have met with members of this committee both sides of the aisle and infrastructure is listed as a top priority because it is a driver of our nation aes econo and impacts every community. This community has a history of working together. I want to continue that tradition and has sweeping jurisdiction over our nations infrastructure. Our last meeting focused on highways and roads all within this committees purview. Recent rains in california and other western states highlight infrastructures and other structu structures, and dams that prevent catastrophic flooding in urban and rural communities. Earlier this month, 180 people were evacuated because of the dams in the United States. The potential dam failure is a concern to state officials and People Living down stream. Any future weather event could make the situation even more critical and it is raising questions about the readiness of our flood infrastructure. Damns across the dams across the country need to be mode modernized and maintained. We should consider the need to maintain and modernize these structu structures. Winter weather events arent just affecting california but across the west hitting towns big and small. These events include ice jam flooding along Big Horn River in anderson and gabriel and to the south, hudson, areas of the wind river reservation. This past month, the ice jam floods have damaged over 100 homes in a practices of molace 5,000 people. And blocks of ice sit for weeks on playgrounds and front lawns. It damaged water structures and Water Treatment plants to private parks and homes and Small Businesses that. They are regular occurrences harming small towns not just wyoming but from the dakotas to upstate new york. For these small towns the cleanup is an enormous burden it takes months to recover. In certain instances flooding could be helped by the army corps to help towns take the steps they need to protect their communities. We have jurisdiction over the modernization of infrastructure. Often times in rural states federal one size fits all rules can have absurd results on the ground. If moving a tree or pile of dirt can make a difference preventing a catastrophic flood, a town shouldnt have to go through a bureaucratic process to remove those features where the town floods yearly and red tape cut with peoples lives and property on the line always the case talking about flooding. Dams and levys are the most Common Infrastructure to address flo flooding. And including ice jams, launch in title one language in title one of the Water Resources act creating an army Pilot Program to create innovative cost saving technology to address the threat of ice jams. The Program Needs to be impleme implemented. Id like to noted in the past two water bills this Committee Gave authority to fema to address sufficient levys and m dams. Its time to implement these authorities and its time to know how to implement this infrastructure and building new infrastructure and reduce red tape and develop Life Saving Technology and new materials to prevent flooding. With that i want to turn to r k Ranking Member carper for his statement. Thanks, mr. Chairman. Thanks for bringing us together. We welcome all of you, glad youre here. You could be a lot of different places and important you be here. We look forward to your testimony and opportunity to have a good conversation. The chairman and i talk a lot about mike in zees 8020 rule, a senator from wyoming. He talks about the 80 20 rule, ted kennedy used to lead Health Education pension committee. I would say to him, how does the most liberal democrats and conservative republican get so much done to provide leadership to this committee. Mike said we believe in the 80 20 rule. I said whats that . Ted and i agree on 80 of the stuff and disagree on 20 . We focus on 80 we agree. Senator and i agree on a lot to invest wisely in infrastructure. Its not an especially partisan issue, as we heard last night in the president s state of the union address. Although it was preciously short on how to pay for stuff, which is always the challenge, how to pay for stuff. Toes spend the money, not so easy to figure out how to pay for it. Democratic senators focus on infrastructure. It appears too me were one of the few Senate Committees here talking about working on a bill in a bipartisan compete consecu compe compete comprehensive way. We feel the need to move forward on a comprehensive infrastructure package in a thoughtful way rather than ki kicking the can down the road which were pretty good at here. As a recovering governor i ask a simple question, how does this proposal, whatever the proposal of the day is, how does it create a more nurturing environment for job creation and preservation, what i ask. In addition something lincoln used to say what is the role of government. He replied famously the role of government is to do for the people what they cannot do for themselves. Wise words. One average citizens can make for themselves. Not only do the construction of dams and levees create jobs these investments also support local economies and help drive commerce and put us on a path to stability. One of the things businesses need most is predictability and certainty and not havoc it creates for the businesses. Its important we make investments because when dams and levees fail they can result in loss of life and economic destabilization. And economic devastation. As we work through this hearing in another infrastructure oversight and policy decisions, i think we will struggle with maybe two central points. One is, what is the rule of federal, state and local government in addressing these infrastructure concerns, and also are the three levels of government up to the challenge . Are the three levels of government up to challenge . Something called the Mckenzie Global Institute has a 2013 report you may be familiar with said we need to invest between 150 and 1 180 billion a year moe in infrastructure. Just to make up for years of underinvestment hindering our country on a multitude of levels from flimt Economic Growth to our personal safety. This looks at all components of infrastructure. This message of drastic need is easily applicable to what were talking about today, thats Flood Control. The same report found one of the best ways to invest and get the most out of our dollars is maintain existing infrastructure. That probably doesnt come as a surprise to any of you. Whether a bridge or dam, our government has a fundamental responsibility to make sure those structures are sound and continue to serve for their intended purpose including impacting lives impacted by the bridge or dams very existence. The infrastructure is critical because the direct jobs we create from the construction work and displaced workers we can bring back into our workforce. They want to work and can do this work. Lets turn them loose. Just as important are the lives and president protected by these proje projects. Particularly looking forward to hearing from our friends from california, and his experiences about the oval dam and life Safety Program. I think its critically important we learn from each others experience and take that shared knowledge forward from through the legislative process. In closing the Critical Infrastructure of our country is aging in need of criticalc Capital Investment to help our economy grow, the Civil Engineers gave us a d as in dog, to roads and Drinking Water and wastewater and infrastructure and waterways, levees received a d minus, ports a c, bridges about a c plus. As we hear testimony im particularly interested how the witnesses think about the roles in government and gaps that need to be filled relates to obta obtaining investing in and Critical Infrastructure as dams and levees. It has been an overarching theme in many of our conversations and sure we will continue that conversation today and i also hope to hear thoughts on concept of natural Infrastructure Protection as it relates to flood safety. Finally while traditional roads and infrastructure are important to our economy we need natural infrastructure such as shorelines and wetland aqua systems and thank you for all you dine that regard, without these protections the infrastructure significantly increases and in many cases become unmanageable. Three finallies, im interested how the federal government can be more efficient with our current funding streams and get the most of every dollar of federal investment and want to make sure were doing the most critical investments to maintain the assets we have first before building new assets that we cant afford. No one size fit all approach to solve our problems. I encourage under the leadership of this man we will. Mr. Chairman, with that, i ask to consent then testimony of martin rivers be admitted without objection. Thank you. Can i invite you to please introduce your guest to the committee . Thank you, mr. Chair and i want to thank you as well for holding this important hearing today. Iowan on the panel today. I am thank you for working with me to extend an invitation to a great iowan on the panel today. I am pleased to introduce the mayor of cedar rapids, mr. Ron corbett to this committee. Mayor corbett has been working tirelessly on behalf of the citizens of cedar rapids secu securing state and local funding to rebuilt his community after the 2008 flood. And what they have done is truly impressive. Critical assistance from the corps is needed to help cedar rapids management project something mayor corbett has been leading the charge on for years now. Cedar rapids and communities across my state are in need of core assistance but run into hurdles trying to navigate the bureaucracy between the corps and omb. Its an issue were trying to work through and resolve not just for the people of cedar rapids, many communities across the state of iowa and the nation. We continue working through this and note the city of des moines also has important levee work that needs to be done and cedar falls has been working on a 408 application still isnt approved. In addition how the Current System is set up to calculate the benefit of flood programs places iowans at a disadvantage. The current methods the corps and administration uses prioritizes beaches in front of multimillion dollar oceanfront homes over protecting the people of cedar rapids because the calculations are based on property value. Cedar rapids is iowas second largest city. Its success is critical to the economic wellbeing of the entire state. They have endured two significant flooding events in eight years that have cost billions of dollars in devastation and recovery aid. The core has some discretion to help forego assistance even though the community worked on a project to work with congress to get it authorized. I look forward to the discussion today, mayor corbett, thank you, i know you will be detailing for this committee cedar rapids very very important story. Im also eager to continue my conversation with you, general semonite, thank you for being here today to see if we can move forward on this. Thank you very much, mr. Chair. Thank you. Senator ernst. Senator harris, may i invite you to introduce your guest. Thank you for scheduling this important hearing as recent events in my home state highlight the importance to assist our state and local partners to upgrade our nations aging infrastructure especially when it comes to what could threaten the safety of all americans. It is my distinct pleasure to introduce the secretary of the Natural Resources agency, secretary laird, who has over 40 years of experience working in Public Service ranging from a budget analyst from then u. S. Representative drum waldy, elected official as city councilman and mayor and state legislator where he chaired the california Budget Assembly Budget Committee and i had a pleasure of working with him both when i was District Attorney in San Francisco and attorney general. In his current role as secretary of Natural Resources he manages californias ecological and cultural resources, water r reserving and state replies and environmental policies. Within his agency he overseas 30 subdepartments including the California Department of Water Resources, the lead Agency Working around the clock to repair the orieville dam and prevent catastrophic flooding. Last week, we had a chance to tour the dam together and he had an extraordinary understanding of the technical needs of the dam and levee infrastructure. I want to comment as he and i noticed it was an extraordinary example of the federal and local agencies coming together to meet a need that was really a crisis in terms of its proportion. We saw folks that ranged from members of the National Guard, the United States navy, fema and California Emergency Services together with the local sheriff, butt county sheriff, who came together to meet the challenge and the need and they did it in a seamless way. It goes without saying secretary laird has Extensive Knowledge of the needs of our nation and needs to consider when it comes to sufficiently entertaining our infrastructure and flood management systems. This combined with his budgetary experience at all levels of government should shed light how congress should handle funding streams for our aging infrastructure. I know in california alone there are approximately 1,400 dams and nearly half of those are designated as quote high hazard potential dams by state officials. Realizing the devastation that could be caused by an aging dam infrastructure, california has invested president ial 11 billion in Flood Control management in the past decade to protect nearly 7 Million People and 5 580 billion worth of asses which including buildings, farmland and crops at risk. The need for improvements arent solely in california. For example in states like wyoming we have invested more than 1 1. 2 billion of their states funding for Water Infrastructure improvements, water storage and supply proj t projects, recycled and Wastewater Management and treatment and drought and emergency relief water programs since 1975. In addition, according to the association of state dam officials it is estimated nonfederally owned dams throughout our nation represent 96 of all dams in the just and would need more than 60 billion dollars to sufficiently repair, a third of the costs urgently needed to repair the high hazard dams identified by the association. This demonstrates that the need is great across our nation. That is why i greatly appreciate the chairmans willingness to prioritize this conversation and i look forward to working with my colleagues on this committee to continue federal support necessary and critical to maintain our infrastructure nationwide. I look forward to hearing from you, mr. Secretary, welcome and i appreciate all the members of the committee and other winters for being here to other witnesses for being here to d disthis crucial topic. Thank you, senator harris. That was a very nice introduction. Thank you. Let me explain where we are today. A vote is going on. I already voted the first time. Several others will be voting and coming back. I will say theres staff from each member here today. We will start with Opening Statements and well start with you, general semonite. If senator brasso is not back, we will skip you and go to the third because he wants to be here during your opening stateme statement. General, youre on. Chairman brasso and the members of the committee and the corps of engineers and 54th chief of engineers, thank you for the opportunity to be here today to discuss the role of the United States army corps of engineers in levee safety. One of the core requirements is to reduce risk to Public Safety. Our efforts are part of a larger array of management processes to insure our nation can enjoy a range of benefits. The corps uses a risk informed approach to insure these objectives are met in a transparent and disciplined manner. Water play assen tral role in the health of our economy and diversity of ecosystems. Unfortunately many of those in our nation experience what we have when we have too little water, too much water or water not fit to consume or sustained natural habitat. In many ways the decisions we made as a nation managing and protecting our Water Resources have influenced how the nation developed and where its people now live. The nations water resource infrastructure includes dams and levees built by the federal government, states and authorities of the private sector. Sustaining the benefit of these structures requires only the appropriate investment of resources and proper management of the risks that come with those benefits. Although often planned and constructed as individual project, many of our nations dams and levees now operate as integrative components of a larger Resource Management system. The corps owns and operates only a small fractions of the dams and levees in the nation. Our portfolio includes 715 dams, less than 1 of over 90,000 structures identified in the 2016 National Inventory of dams. The corps also operates and maintains roughly 2500 miles of lev levees, less than 10 of the roughly 30,000 miles now in the National Levee inventory. From a functional perspective the corps generally constructed the dams and levees it owns and operates to provide snafgation of flood risk benefits. Many support other uses such as hydropower, water supply and recreation. Over time, these facilities have age and deteriorated and can only sustain their intended function with regular maintenance and periodic rehabilitation. Many external factors will complicate the efforts to sustain the viability of this infrastructure. Vablts ranging from intensity of seismic events to the sizes of populations working and living near the infrastructure compound the difficulty of decision making. The corps is addressing these challenges in a risk informed manner. We make informed adjustments to make sure resources are made in an efficient and technically robust manner. Our Dam Safety Program enables to corps to extend the period a project can provide some or all of its benefits by investing in measures to reduce the principal safety risk s at an acceptable level. The corpss responsibilities generally follow projects specific authorities from managing infrastructure the corps owns and operates. The core also has programmatic authorities from participating in the National Community of dam and levee safety. In reaching decisions on potential Safety Measures at the dams or levees it owns and opera operates, the corps considers the safety, Economic Risks posed by the infrastructure and cost of reducing those risks and authorized project benefits a Safety Improvement would enable the project to provide the society. In summary, dams and levees are an important part of the levees Water Initiative and to make sure ournation is wellpositioned to safely manage our Water Infrastructure. For the dams and levees our corps owns and operates we are looking to balance the costs, responsibilities, risk and benefits in order to make decision of proper effective management of risk. A Similar Network of risk inf m informed management may help meet objectives for the safety of other dams and levees across the nation. Im honored to lead the United States corps of engineers and look forward to answering your questions. Senator carper asked is the government up to this challenge . The corps of engineers is up to this challenge to engineer solutions for the nations most critical challenge. We have the capacity and confidence to do just that. Thank you, sir. Thank you, general semonite. We will pass over the next person and go to mayor corbett. Thank you, senators and Staff Members, on behalf of the citizens of cedar rapids and people of eastern iowa that work everyday in cedar rapids, thanks for giving us an opportunity to tell our story today. In june of 2008, the cedar river in cedar rapids crested more than 10 feet above any previous flood. At 31 feet, the unthinkable happened. The flood waters covered 10 square miles, which is 14 of our city. 6,865 residential properties, 754 commercial Industrial Properties 310 city facilities were totally damaged more than 5 5. 4 billion in losses. The flood devastated our residents, our businesses, our entire community. But not all was lost. There are two things we didnt lose, senators, one, we didnt lose any lives. Thanks to our response, Emergency Response team and the hundreds of boat rescues, no lives were lost in our community. If you think about it, in the various disasters in each of your respective states around the countries, often times during the news reports of the disaster includinged included reports is the death toll. In cedar rapids, no lives were lost. In some bizarre way we feel nine years later the fact we were so successful in saving lives, that is maybe goes against us. The second thing that wasnt lost was our will to rebuild our city stronger and better than what it was before the flood. As damaging and catastrophic of the 2008 floods, our recovery has been is equally impressive by any standard with your help, through fema, hud, the justice department, along with the state and local government, the private sector, the nonprofit sector, the faith community, we began that journey to rebuild cedar rapids, bui building by building, house by house, neighborhood by neighborhood. That included our infrastructure, water and sewer. Quite remarkable. As we were rebuilding we always had one eye on the future. That future meant a permanent flood Protection System in cedar rapids. That confidence our Business Community had and our residents had to reinvest and the momentum we have gained has all been based on having longterm flood protection. From the beginning weve been working with the core and we were so anxious when the corps was ready to reveal their plan for cedar rapids only to unveil the plan that protected just one side of the river, imagine being a mayor or resident of the community, when youre told youre allowed to protect one side but the other side isnt . How do you say lives on one side of your river are worthy but lives on the other side of the river are not worthy . I asked why and they said its because of the benefit cost ratio formula algorithm. We dont govern cedar rapids by an algorithm. We worked with the state to develop a funding mechanism to protect the west side. So here we are, nine years later, finding ourselves again disadvanta disadvantaged by the benefit cost ratio, its based on value of property. When cedar rapids is compared to other communities around the country we come up a little shorter because the values of our community or smaller midwestern states just are not equal to the value in the larger communities. This past september we had another event. We were able to win this time over the river so we evened the score, the river, 1, community, now 1. Now we know its not a question of if it will flood again, but when. And we need to have that longterm flood protection for our community. Again, senators, we seek your help. Thank you. Thank you very much, mayor corbett. You may have noticed people are coming and going. Were in the middle of two votes and will continue to come back and forth. At this time, i would like to turn to commissioner terry wolf, chairman of the county commission in wyoming, a former member of the wyoming National Guard, a degree in criminal justice from wyoming and he moved back to new orleans in 1995 and upon transitioning out of the National Guard he ran for a seat in the county commission and seated in january of 2003. Past president of the Wyoming County commissioners association, currently Vice President of the wyoming association of county officers, also serves on the National Association of counties public steering committee. During his 15 years as a county commissioner he represented the county as a federal cooperating agency on the Big Horn National forest plan revision and Big Horn Basin revision Resource Management commission. I want to welcome you and thank you for agreeing to testify today. I see you have a number of other commissioners from the state of wyoming here to cheer you on and see pete overmiller here also the director of the Wyoming County commissioner association. Commissioner wolfe. Good morning, chairman barrasso and Ranking Members, thank you for the opportunity to speak today. My name is terry wolf the board of county commissioners in was hacky county, wyoming, the third poorest county in wyoming. Washakie is in the basin and you can find a map in my testimony. It is wellknown for sugar beats grown and processed in pure sugar made for consumption. The high yield is dependent upon the Big Horn River. Unfortunately the same river that brings so much life brings destruction to our communities in the spring when ice trucks with ice blocks jam up and push the water over the river. The ice blocks push the communities flooding homes and businesses and threatening the sugar Processing Plant i already mentioned. Mr. Chairman, i want to direct your attention to the before and after photos on the easel of the flooding that occurred in new orleans on february 11th of this year. In the before photos you can see an island in the middle of the river formed from sediment over course of years. In the after you get a picture of ice blocks causing the floo flooding. Over the course of the week, city, county, state officials, wyoming National Guard and numerous volunteers worked ti tirelessly to protect private and public property created by the flood. We are still counting the costs but estimates likely will exceed 150,000. While it is heartbreaking for this flood what is critical to know what happened a couple weeks ago happened in 2014. It pushed over the Big Horn River costing state and local governments nearly 200,0 200,00 recovery costs. For a rural county like wa washakie, they are hard to bear. I show you the 20 year span of buildup on that island. We at the local level must confront this issue because the exact same flooding is likely to occur year after year depending on the severity of the winter. Following the 2014 flood we pursued the possibility of removing the island. The removal of 1. 7 acres of area at a depth of 5 feet requiring 1700 truckloads would insure free flowing passage of ice blocks. A project like this is small for an agency like the army corps it is too much for a community as small as ours to tackle on our own. Seconds 205 of the Flood Control act of 1948 authorized the army corps of engineers to partner with state and local agencies on projects not specifically authorized by congress. While we initially pursued a sections 2 project in 2015 we uncovered the likelihood of difficult expensive bureaucratic hurdles and sediment to be removed from the island. While it is significant we were concerned the local share was still much more than the rural agriculturalbased county could meet. Finally it appeared the army corps hadnt used the section 205 program for ice jams to the extent it had for other traditional programs and other areas of the country and therefore may not have believed it had the flexibility necessary to deal effectively with the problem. With that in mind we are pleased to see congress used the ice jams passed two months ago on december, 2016. That launch require language rs demonstrate technologies desig designed to mitigate and prevent flooding of the ice jams. Removal of the island appears to be the solution to our flooding but at the local level we are flexible enough to explore other options if you are to explore technologies and mitigate what is likely to be a repeated disaster in our area. We remain concerned about monetary and Human Capital costs associated with these projects however we are committed to work alongside the army corps of engineers to protect our community. We hope we will be among the first pilot projects. Seasonal runoff or unique weather events we have no control. But ice jams and flood settlement in the island are something we can control with the help of the corps of army engineers. As you move forward to Fund Infrastructure projects of great to the nation you do not forget about these small proj t projects of importance to our communities. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, mr. Wolfe. If we can turn now to secretary john laird. Thank you very much, mr. Chair. Also Ranking Member carper, senator harrison and members of the knee on behalf of the state of california and Governor Brown, i thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony before this committee at this particular time on our issues. As you know, our nations aging infrastructure is at a crossroads. One path characterized by inaction, butting human lives and Natural Resources and the economy at risk. Another path shaped by policies and Community Investment across all levels of government and incorporation of new science that can provide multiple benefits to common outlines. Right now, california approaches this situation with a sense of urgency. Drought and floods have always driven the water policy investment and scientific technical understanding. This year is no different. After five years of the driest seasons in modern times, californias now in the midst of what is likely to be the wettest season on record in the history of Record Keeping in california. This just demonstrates that california has the most variable weather of any state in the nation and often depends on the bounty of four or five storms per season to support our water system. The number, size and severity of stomps this water year has strained the states Flood Control and Water Management infrastructure, forcing evacuations, damaging roads, destroying homes, communities and livelihoods. Its estimated damage to californias highways alone from the storms this year is 5 595 million thus far. Most dramatically damage to the spillway on the oregon dam, the second largest in california and as the chair said on opening comme comments, the largest dam in the nation serves as the keystone for the California Water project observed on feb 7th by water manag managers, damage to the main spillway and rapid erosion of the emergency spillway led to the emergency evacuation of nearly 200,000 down stream residents in butte county. With crews working around the clock, the danger has since passed and residents returned home. It is 50 feet below the capacity level and repairs continue as dam op raytors plan for an extended flood season due to a high snow pack. Over the last decade alone, over 11 billion has been spent by federal, state and local agencies in california on Flood Control projects. Californias extraordinary response to this years storms was only possible due to local, state and federal cooperation and significant prior investments. California has the leading Dam Safety Program in the nation, as recognized in a peer review by the association of state dem safety officials. But we can and must always do better. This event has drawn much needed attention to the age, condition, maintenance and financial needs of california and the nations Flood Control and Water Management systems. We should use the opportunity that is presented by this situation to invest in existing infrastructure and fund innovative projects that leverage science to meet the challenge of extreme level and variable precipitation and accomplish multiple goals. We are not waiting for the federal government alone to meet this urgent need and real opportunity. As a first step last friday, Governor Brown redirected 50 million from the state thats general fund and requested a 387 million 1 appropriation from the state legislature to fund near term Flood Control and Emergency Response actions. To complement the immediate actions of our state agencies, as secretary of Natural Resources i have requested the following actions from our partner federal agencies we expand inspections and review of all federally evened dams in california to parallel to the federals efforts to operate the operating manual. It is imperative to revise these manuals to reflect current scientific knowledge. The corps needs to be fully funded or allow nonauthorities to finance the work. We also hope to fund in my letter i ask we fund the recently enacted Water Infrastructure improvements for the nation act which authorizes a program for rehabilitation of high hazard dams at fema. Also prioritize publication of the programs rules to assist california and other states in this rehabilitation effort. We have an opportunity and we look forward to working with our federal partners and i look forward to answering questions. Thank you for being here and sharing your insights, secretary laird. Mr. Larsson. Thank you, chair barroso and the Ranking Member and the rest of this staff. I have been working in Water Resources for 55 years. My first job was to work for the california ddvr on the state Water Project as you know, dam is the key. I also for 25 years ran the Dam Safety Program and Flood Management Program in the state of wisconsin. The association of state flood plan managers represents 17,000 professionals across the nation who manage flood risks to reduce flood loss everyday. This includes structural and nonstructural, Community Use and Community Planning mapping stormWater Management and the rest. Weve been very concerned about the status of the nations flood Risk Management structure. In light of the increasing rainfall intensity we get even more worried. Flood damage in the nation is really unknown. We dont know how much floods cost us every year. Thats a real problem. Flood mapping. In order for communities and states to effectively manage flood risk they need good flood maps. The 3. 5 million miles of rivers and coastlines in the United States is mapped about 1. 5 of them. Only half of that has a 100 year Flood Elevation they need to regulate properties. The base flood maps used by all those 22,000 communities, all the states and federal agencies, they may build off of them but start with them. They have a good process for p mapping all communities in the nations in 12 years fully funded as authorized. Good topography is also key. Usgs has a digital Elevation Program called 3 depth. They, if funded, can do the m mapping for the nation in the next eight years. One of the residual risk m mapping, one of the key areas this nation has ignored is residual risks below dams and they will either go overtop or fail. If maps are available federal government policy is not to release the maps to the public. We dont quite understand that. No one knows how the risk is, or if theyre in a risk zone. It is not appropriate they find that out at 2 a. M. When Law Enforcement knocks on their door and says you have to leave. We must figure out how to solve that problem and be forward thinking on national standards. We need standards for dams and levees both. You in congress have set up programs in the corps to develop levee standards and fema to develop dam standards. Neither of those are funded and we must get on to that. Add to this standard the fact we have mapped and built flood infrastructure to yesterdays flood and not tomorrows flood, im pleased to hear i think california is doing more of that all the time and the rest of us need to do that, too. We need to figure out how to keep those lower hazard dams from becoming higher hazard dams because development occurs down stream. A couple of states figured it out and we need to do it nation nationally. We are pleased to see the Congress Administration looking at the issue of infrastructure but our experience shows natural incentives are very difficult to apply to these type of projects, especially southern projects. Public financing will not suffice. We need substantial investment in this as well as state and local investment. Investors tell us from the private sector tell us they need more standards to make sure what they make are designed to maintain and operate to national standards. It should look beyond Flood Control, stormWater Management. Green infrastructure, nature based approaches are appropriate. Funding should also serve to help build state ability. You realize only the states have the authority to oversee private dams and levees. The federal government cannot tell a private dam or levee owner to fix a dam or fix a levee. The states have that authority if they use it. Ive run programs that do have that. You set up some process and when to build state capability in m dams but that must be funded to get under way. Thats a smart investment of taxpayer money. In conclusion, the u. S. Is facing a substantial need to repair and upgrade and sometimes remove our Flood Control structure. If you simply appropriated the programs you already authorized in the flood Risk Management program, national Safety Program and national Dam Safety Program we would be making a big step. The threat of or raville dam and 80 dams in South Carolina in the past two years points out we have a public wakeup call. Thank you very much. Thank you. I just noticed, called to my attention, senator grassley has come and seated behind mayor corbett. Did you want to be recognized for anything . I didnt come here to mess anything up. All right. Then dont mess anything up. I want to make sure you understand that iowans are interested in this. I didnt tell him that cumberland and anita is where all my family was born. Were sensitive to those problems. Ill begin, because the chairman is voting now and then go to senator carper. General semonite, in my hometown, we have nearly 20 miles of levee system built by the corps of engineers back in the 1940s. We have about 10,000 People Living within that. We have 2 billion of infrastructure including a refinery, a very large refinery. At 70 years old, they are desperate and in need of repair and upgrades. Congress authorized a Feasibility Study and authorized an exspy dated budget act, that was our effort. With the assessment taking over a year longer than promised, congress is concerned about lack of delays in prioritizing the project. Its my hope we can get this done. Im sure you looked at that before in preparing for this hearing. Concern is, these are old theres not a woke that goes back that this didnt called to my attention. What kind of commitment can you make that were going to get this started . Thanks senator, you bring up a good point. When you talk about levy, we have 15,000 miles of levy that we constructed but the core has 2,500 that we maintain. So we have to be able to reach out to find out what can we do to assist several people everybody has to pool their share to work side by side that. This goes back to flood management study, to review that, get this done, understand how were going to be able to come through on that. I dont know the details of where were at on that. I would like to have my staff to come back on that. That would be a good idea. This is something that should not have gone this long. Its critical. I have one more question. While i have you here, i want to raise a concern. Congress authorize and made it a prior to for the core to work with private partners to maintain core lakes. There seems to be a antidevelopment mentality within the core within the tulsa district that needs to be overcome. Ill give you a quote. Senior Staff Members told my direct director he said if i had my way, i would end the Lake Development all together, end quote. I would like to ask you is this philosophy within the core that youre willing to talk about . Certainly does not reflect our core philosophy. We are aggressive to find many option on rekcognize creation. Every one of these project is different. I done know the exact details of what was said. Our philosophy is to continue to look at how to parts partner with a stakeholder. Ill find out and get back with you on that. Thank you. Senator cardin. Thank you, mr. Chairman. To our friends, welcome. Senator grassy nice to see you. I want to say to how much we appreciate the opportunity to work with philadelphia regional office. Delaware, virginia, thanks. Someone mentioned, i dont know maybe it was mr. Carson, someone mentioned the funding. I understand we have some in some cases we have legislation authorize new support effort beyond the federal. We have appropriated the money. Im reminded, we have a its called the main dates unfunded man dates law where we set standard. So you have to do this but we dont provide the money to do it. Is that the situation here . Thats in the wind to setup that Grant Program with fema that has not been funded. Fema needs to put together experts statewide for design, operation, construction and m n maintainance. Back to events in your further near Populated Areas although the federal dam repair has been focus on rehabilitation and federal facilities and Safety Programs, some have aural argued for increase in role. The in particular, recently passed legislation nondam repair beyond traditional federal law. Theres a budget from the president in a couple of weeks to have an opportunity to sew what they suggest. But general, aside from funding the critical programs what can they do to thats a great question. These rivers, these flood management structures are intertwined. All of this has to Work Together. Anything that one element does is going to affect the other. We have federal structure and we have a lot of expertise. We have 5,000 dam experts in the core that take care of our 715 but more than available to go to other place. Oroville is a great example. We have 50 people working to make sure what we can do to mitigate the current risk. How can reuse the Lessons Learned in federal area to go back learn the same thing. How do we wrap those back in to learn how to operate our federal system better. Its a shared understand to make sure were all working side by side. I was going to ask a question about shared responsibility. How can states particularly when smaller state, delaware, coordinate and or pool resources to help core complete bigger Flood Control projects. Some study, if there are things out there, we have an unbelievable relationship through the team, if there are things that we things we can lien on to be able to help get justification or have better understanding of the return on investment, i dont know if i have an exact answer, wherever we can team with the federal team to make it more resilient, thats what were trying to do. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I would like to ask general seminight a question preferencing it about reminding those who are watching, you may recall West Virginia had a one one thousand year flood that control that took the lives of 23 west virginiian lost their lives. The core has been trying to repair the community and the water ways. The secretary will conduct studies to determine the feesibility of implementing projects, canal river ba sin in this virginia and North Carolina im asking you to move forward on that study and what we may expect from that. We will do that. You talked about how fast it will happen. You had 10 inches of rain in less than 24 hours. This is why you see we have to serge is unbelievable we have to mitigate the risk. Thank you, very much. That gets me to another question, howard creek which is not a large body of water, its sound small, its a larger creek, but its one that rose and really took so many lives so wi quickly. When youre looking at small water ways is the best resources of these, is to train the local not just state but locals to try to take this opportunity to improve howard creek. Is that how you move forward from Something Like this in. Yes theres a lot of flood fieinging to be done to mitigate this. The think the mayor made a good point. All lives are critical, and property just as important in the United States. A large river or small stream, were committed to making sure we mitigate the damage thats out there. How do you do that . Through training. How those teams can share some of the Lessons Learned to be able to make sure the community have that available, thats an opportunity tool. Im sure that rapid rise as well. And it was costly. I want to shift to dams, we live in a mountainous state, we have 614 dams most of them have been studied. A although some have not been rated as r. A. T. A. D. So we cannot tell are they satisfiry, poor, where their rating is. How can you how can we prioritize our projects if we dont have Accurate Information on the existing dams we have throughout the states . Let give you the federal perspective, on our 715 dams there are rated exactly. There are five different ratings codes. I can tell you where the federal inventory are with that. The federal rating system, which is a robust rating system, how does that get incorporated into state, local and private communities so we have an ability to rack them and stack them. We have 12,000 dams in the data base. If there are areas where we have not had fidelity in the ratings we go back to vise how to do it better the im not aware theres contention there, how to we continue to do a better job. In all fairness to the state, the state has six working in this area. When you have 700 structures and issues that they are dealing with. So im glad to know with your expertise at the core, the huntington core, we have some baltimore core, our state, we get good expose your to the kor core, i appreciate your willingness to coordinate with the state to get dams up and safe. For the fast water occurrence, we we had another one this morning, we need to be able to cope better on the ground. Were great at recovering and helping people, but prevention is where we would like to be. Thank you. Senator white house. Thank you, chairman. Im delighted were having this issue. I want to take a minute to respond to the point mr. Larson made which is important particularly for us representing coastal states. One the basic facts about Climate Change is the majority of the heat hit the planet, as a result carbon admission, is about the ocean is great cooling system and execess heat goes in the so when the ocean gets warmer it rises, for coastal states we are seeing problems. We have nine feet of Sea Level Rise along rhode island shores. This shows itself already in places like this. These are summer cottages along the coast. This is after a recent storm and the lady who owns that house, i remember speaking to her, before she was about maybe 60 plus years old, she remembers as a little guard that house had a yard, on the other side of the yard was a road, that people drive to the beeach area. And parking area, an there was a beach, was a longrun across the beach to get feet into the cool water. All of that is gone and the house gone into the sea. We are seeing this over sp over again and its worsening sf accelerating. So people may want to choral about Climate Change but there is not funny. It is for real. Here is downtown newport after sandy, which missed us. This small side affect of the big hit that was nearby and this is not ordinarily kayakble. As you can see from the stores that have floors filled with the harbor. So the problem that we have that i would like to make sure that the gentleman listening to is exactly what mr. Larson said, he said when youre dealing with this problem you need flood maps and good flood maps. We prepare for yesterdays flood and not tomorrows flood. In rhode island we have done our independent view of femas coastal flood mapping. And our agencies and our university find that the fema maps are just dead wrong. They have all sorts off errors f the they fall short of storm serge, they dont accurately reflect doom protection for the land behind it it. They exaggerate doom protection by amounts that are astonishing. They rely on out dated model. They are so bad, when they run it, they find a five foot differentiation at the model line. That is symptom of a flawed model. When you have five foot differentiation. The problem is badly err ronnous. Which means a lot of people depending on fema are being misinformed. If its happening on rhode island, its happening everywhere. A number of other states, that have cross states show that the fema model are a failure. We very asked them to recreate the model they cannot. So when aim forced to look at homes like this going in the water that family had for generations, like i said, this isnt funny. Its bad enough when this body wont Pay Attention for body climate and its hitting home, my home state. Then when we have to quantify the information because fema has it wrong, thats significant. My time has expired. I thank you for hosting this and allowing this to come forward. This is not your army core problem, this is a fema problem, i want to make sure you know and take home how badly their mapping fairs against i conclude. Thank you. Senator rounds. Thank you, mr. Chairman. General seminight. Thank you for your service. We appreciate what you do on regular basis. I want to talk about im from south dakota and we have Missouri River which comes down to the middle of the state. We have dam and certainly has been a good thing for the state along with all the states surrounding us. Im becoming concerned about the potential for the Missouri River flooding as a result snow back levels and the reservoirs through regular communication with the core and south Dakota Department of environment and nature resources, its come to our attention to mountain snow pack 134 average between ga ret son basis. What is the army cores plan to management upper missouri this year. I know noah is predicting above average. Does the core have increase flooding about the above average rainfall and what core doing to address that rainfall. Where is the core at right now what are you anticipating in terms of your ability to man what may be significant inflows . Senator, great question. Were watching california closely and through any of the systems. We had scenarios where if you get too much smnow you could no bring it down. We watch it the best we can. This was the challenge is to be able to do the method willing to do. We dont have the funds to go to the next level to model that to the higher extreme. We have taken the tools available. The question is are we able to project that. Thats not a good answer, the bottom line is we are concerned about the snow back. We do not have the science to know how its going to project. We are major flood in 2011, they recommend you have additional monitoring equipment put in. That was in 2014. We have 2015, 2016, 2017, now coming up on 2018. This last summer we had representative told us you did not have the appropriation. I dont think theres been request. What i would like to know is are you planning putting in a request for it. If you did, since your not go to have it this year do you have plans to modify by releasing early flows so we done have the possibility we have in 2011 . I have get back to you on that. To make sure i understand the details. I know there are funding challenges thats not acceptable. We are doing everything we can with the fund available. We have concerned we have the authority under the water control manual to bring the water down based on the analysis we have now. I owe better answer on what to do to fix that. Theres interest in the upper ba sin after 20 11, do you have plans for the communication with local communities along way. Last year, in 2011, one of the biggest concerns was in march, march 3, 2011, report in the herald indicate were going to be fine this year unless it rains. Its no the a way to run a major system. I hope thats not going to the comment this year. If thats the case, we have real problems. To address issue on clob rati collaboration, we were talking to local communities, we want to be sure we are learning from you and youre learning from us. The goal is to bring the capabilities down to absorb whatever snow bapack thats coming. Can you provide information on by weekly basis on where youre at in the Flood Control and plans to relief the no flow along the missouri later on. Most of our stuff is posted on the web. If theres any reason why we are not being as collaborative as we can be, well fix that. If were up to the exclusive storage position, in the first week in march, that youre prepared to begin to take action to relief flows what mitigate flows later ob. I concernertainly to make th happen. Yes, we want to meet that intent. I want to make sure were doing it within authority of our manual. What im getting at, with due respect, Flood Control is number one prior to that would be above other needs, flood yellow contr number one. Am i stating that correctly. Life safety is number one. Thank you. Senator harris. Secretary laird, you and i know about the longstanding debate in california about water. A famous person whiskey for drinking, water is for fighting. One place that highlight that is san delta. Will you talk about the analysis and infrastructure in the delta. Its subject of debate about where that goes in terms of the farmer who rely and on and environment live in the body of water. That seems to occupy a lot of discussions about the delta. I have a concern about another point which is a we may not have this debate in the infrastructure thats support the delta is compromised or weak. If you can address that. Thank you. For all of those rivers flow in the one place, through anness swear through the ocean, theres hundreds and hundreds of miles of levies that have created the delta islands which are farmed and farmed in a way they dropped to 20 or 25 feet below sea level and protected by levies constructed to be agricultural levies and not high protection urban w urban levies. We had a break in the last week in the middle of the storm. The delta island flooded and it would be hard to clean up and repair. Senator whit house mentioned Sea Level Rise, if theres a one foot Sea Level Rise, it that from 100 years to meanings more frequency. With subsidence in these islands. And number of levies failed, salt water would drain and you would have real difficult recovering farmland, there would be interruption of water supply. The question is its a huge tick kw ticket to do all repair work that needs to be done. The voters brought 3 billion. The 2014 brought 7. 5 billion to the table for everything. Flood control, storage, and some levy i le levy improvements so we know we have a lot to do. Its a complex system. The one other thing is some of these island are not habited. The one where they did the evacuate in the last two weeks, they evacuated 20 homes. If thats the kind of tax base to do the repairs needed to be done. You cannot complete it without states help. That body of water is largest on the west coast is that correct . Yes. The body of water produces 50 of the fruits and vig vegetables consumed by the nation. Those two together provided water to 3 million acres of agriculture. The question is there could be interruption of water supply for that. There could be damage to farm language itself in delta. How can colleagues and i support what california fleeneeo do to make sure that body of water in addition to oroville dam is supported. Understanding the ramifications are extreme. I think that really, were bringing all this money to the table and the question is is within the flexibility of the federal government can you have Loan Guarantees. Only 3 of the dams in california are state dams. And so theres some places where theres local districts where theres private entities Utility Companies have a number of these dams, a Loan Guarantee would make a different in terms of them to finance the repairs or upkeep. Those would be helpful as well. If if you look california it flooded from 80 years. They could not correctly measure how many water was going on and everything designed was not designed for the capacity. But the federal government stepped in this 1930s and joined with the state and local. With that support that brought monitor with sacramento second to new orleans catastrophic flood events that protect them in that time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thanks for being here. Mayor, do you believe the safety of your citizens of your vulnerable because you have not been able to get the critical assistance that we talked about early from core. If so, can you explain on that. Thank you, senator. Our community is vulnerable. As i made mention, the recovery of cedar rapids has been phenomenal, as we gained population. And the Business Community has reinvested in our town. We have that momentum and restored confidence in your community. We have not sad by in the nine years since the flood, we have been working locally to incorporate flood mitigation efforts in our town. Right after the flood, the recession hit four months later. Our citizens voted for sale tax referendum an increase for sixty plonts months to provide resources to our communities. Our government stepped up and approved a mechanism when the core through the cost benefit said they could only recommend protectsing east side of cedar rapids and not the westside. Rejected one side is worthy the other is not. 100 of the westside flood protection. So our ask of the federal government is 65 for east side flood protection. But until theres some changes in cost benefit ratio, were going to compared with others around the country that has higher property val i. I want to thank you for the hard work. Thank you. General, its good to see you again. Thank you for taking time to sit down go over the tough shirks issue. I wrote to you last fall, to budget and flood Risk Reduction project. The core sent a letter back decisions are determined on case by case basis. A list was provided to me of fy 2017 project funded because of the significant risk they possess to human safety. These they have low vcr, theys are similar to what we see in cedar rapids. And i noticed that four out of the five projects were in california. Can you explain to me why the lives and lively hood of californiians are worth more of the lively hoods of those iowians . Senator, great question. Every single american, everybody single prop have the same value. We have to take care of all the country. One thing that cedar rapids have done better is figuring out how to mitigate the problem. The ability to be able to find funding. Theres a lot of concerns out there. We are worried. We made a significant federal investment. We are continuing to do everything we can to find out how we can secure the amount of money to be able to at least start that. The challenge we have is that the requirements grossly exceed the amount of money in the budget. 24 billion to be able to buy down the worst one. We are getting funded into capacity, when it comes to other areas for Flood Control, the question is how can we hit all the requirements. The best we can do is work with you to the benefit cost ratio cannot be the right answer. We have to think about the passion of the people and the work they have done out there. The best we can, well continue to champion that project. At the end of the day, when the administration has to figure out, how much we can afford, elements are there some you can take a look at that risk and where to buy that risk down. I look forward to working you with solution that benefit those who live in urban states but those findings challenges in the rural areas. This is an important project. For the entire state of iowa. I will continue to push for that. Mr. Chairman, i want to thank you for bring this committee to talk about important issues. I know we struggle with some of the same issues in wisconsin, nebraska and we look forward to working with us. Thank you. For all your effort. Before i begin my questioning. I would like to demonstrate the impact has had in communities in wyoming. 100 plus homes evacuated. Pictures with the wyoming placing sand bags there. In wyoming. This is affecting different parts of the country. I want to visit with you, if it i could, commissioner wolf, because last week, many people from big haorn went to celebrat the live and mourn the death. Big horn river that in an effort to prevent flooding. Hef left behind a wife, he was 52. He left behind two sons. Can you talk about the other human consequences of the flooding in addition to the abandoned homes and damage and property damage. Can you go beyond that. Yes. That was a tragic time with passing. People in the courthouse related to him and we extend our condolences to. When you look at what happened whether that flood inundated the home and businesses, those families were away from their homes for almost four to five nights. When you look at the toll, they dont know what they are going to come back to, the Law Enforcement they is it a good job, and the Washington County Sheriffs Department trying to get families out in sp and can out of the homes. Many of them thought it was overnight deal, but up river of this jam had already flooded, we have others that had not come down yet, at that point where the bridges are, runs at ten and a half feet, we had high of 15 feet with others coming down, we didnt want to take a chance to cause injury or loss of life, it was dangerous to be around even if if the water reseeds. The pictures you show is striking. The testimony states removal of the island could be affective solution for the city of new orleans. As you point out, if project demonstrate i think we can solve this problem. It may be the only way given the cost and the bu cattic they should step in. I think so, mr. Chairman, they should step in. I look at it at state and local levels. We need to have skin in the game to work with the core in in project. We have seen over the years that may be able to ad to the solution to the problems that they may the not be in there on a regular basis. One of the things we looked at short term is the removal out there. Reenforce the river bank and also along with that short senior Term Solution would be put in place backflow prevention. The water flowed back up the brain and flooded the drains and local area. Thats longterm. I think we can Work Together and i talk ed with the general toda. Do you have ability to help new orleans removal of the damage sir, thanks for the question. I i this first of all, i want to thank you for what you did to get that pilot organized. We have a lieutenantot of exper. Im from a small river. I know the complexity thats out there. I dont think we have the challenge with authorities. When it comes to 205 challenges, we want to be able to reach out to do what we need to do for the nation or where the nation needs the core the only which we should not be able to do something is because of the lack of funding. We cannot afford it and this best thing to do understand the requirement, come forward to be able to articulate that into congress, where we think there could be use of that, if in fact the commune and the congress feels we should step up, theres a budget teary decision. In terms of authority, i want to include that language in the Water Resources committee, creating Pilot Program to develop address the threat like this. In developing the Program Research engineer lab of the core. So will you commit to work to implement this program to require technology to eleavate the threats. Yes. The scope of that program was, we have that under gear. At some point if we dont the funding to be able to execute the funding, how can this happens in other places in the world m world. Thank you mr. Chairman for holding this hearing as to the concerns we have. We have 346 dam until maryland. Two are under the jurisdiction of the army core and we thank you for the attention thats been paid to the two dams in maryland. We have lot of others dams that are highly regulated one of the major sources of electricity in the east coast. I want to go to the attention of the lessor known dams. That are no longer performing the function for which they were construct constructed originally. We have the dam on the pa tap koe state park i was told it was first hydro eelectrodam. Its an old dam that no longer serves its function. Because of the way dams are financed and reserve. The dam is there. It is a Public Safety has zards. We have have state parks. Individuals like to swim and the currents have caused people to lose their lives. It affects farming operations in an adverse way. Is there any way to figure out how we can moving forward recognize that theres a live cycle tor dams and theres a need to remove dams that are no longer useful for the intended purpose. Suggestions on that i would appreciate it. Looks like you have a thought. Sir, just maybe an observation. We have 15 of the worst dams. The question is do we use taxpayers money to fix them. Of the 15, 5 we are working with to divest those. Theres another one that home stead is replacing so this is on one of the river. I i this you have a great point there are times we have to take a look at to say is it worth return on investment or for the reasons you stated, may be theres time to take them out. This is where i dont know which one youre talking about. The worst thing we can do is use limited taxpayer dollars to fix a dam that doesnt serve its purpose. I remember the Dam Safety Program in the fascinate of wisconsin. We have an authority to tell owner either you fix it up or take it out. In that case, we asked our state legislature to setup a fund to remove the dams. The states needs to step up to do that. These are nonfederal dams. So we had removed those dam that were no longer serving the purpose. We are removed just high profile one in month ray county. Theres one in Ventura County that has by 2020 it will have zero percent capacity. You nailed the problem. We raised the money were private donors and different public funds to deal with the dam removalal because they were safety, it was fish, it was out lived them. Usef usefulness and some of these cases, theres such an on such a small base and the cost removing it is so big we had to leverage the money. We have to look for a public source or some way in which theres a broader base to pay for the removal of the dam. Youre experience could be helpful to other states. One thing i would encourage is that this subject be shared with how you were able to do this because we have been unable to do this. Thank you, mr. Chairman. [ inaudible ] because we have a lot of damdams new washing new wart. New york is vulnerable to storms and storm surge along the coast. Hurricane lee in new york failure of three has czarred dams, one dk with the dam in county. Acts of which we may have seen far more while new york state has a long and strong standing dam in place, we do not know where or when the next storm will occur. I think we cannot have a serious conversation about dam infrastructure woithout addressing the impact of extreme weather. Increased amount of precipitation due to hurricanes, noreaster, that threatens our dam and levies. Does the army core provide Global Change into account when carrying out their dam programs. Yes, we do provide a lot of expertise. We have five thousand dam experts in the core. We have several districts that work in the state of new york. All of those people are there able to provide that capability. We have be able to localize high expert so we built regional with centers. We runs our National Dam Safety center. We can hope in the state or any technical or be able to show Lessons Learned, we are able to do that. The challenge is going to be whats level of support we can give and how do we work that through reimbursable basis because thats how core works. Well more than willing to partner if theres something specific you need help with. What steps do you take to focus on resill yentcy. I think theres a fill. I think theres the physical piece. How do we worry about veryingation vegation. We know how much water, do we want to keep in the dam, where do we see the storm coming, how do we bring that back down. Thats a balance with drought. The more we do that, i think thats one of the things we offer. When youre assessing if something is a hazard dam or not, in new york we have 7,000 dams and 403 are classified as high hazard. Would be classified if youre taking into account future Climate Change impact . When were going to build a new structure, we put that into design. How that water comes. Some of the other testimonies today talked about flashes and california, we are concerned about this pineapple express, its not just fact that where the water is but how is the water going to come. If its going to come so fast that the system cannot pass that thats why the challenge is. You are analyzing those sets of fact when judging which are critical. Yes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. I didnt have any other i want to thank all of your guests for being here. I think this is very helpful for all of us. I appreciate all of the witnesses to be here. I would ask unanimous testimony we receive from upperer river Mississippi Association if theres no objections, those would be included in the record. This record will stay open for the next two weeks. There may be other members because of the votes who may submit written questions and hope you get back quickly with those. Thank you for being here. Im grateful for your time. This hearing is adjourned. 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