Transcripts For CSPAN3 IRS 20240704

Prolife restrictions, this is a way to abortions in states that are trying to protect unborn life. Thank you. Thank, you mister chairman. Id say my time is expired. Senator thank, you mister chairman. Doctor scott says that miss we will leave this here, grow a site. We take you live now to capitol hill. Two irs to follow an investigation into the biden family. And the Oversight Committee. Now in order. I want to welcome everyone here today. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at anytime. Without objection, chairman of the ways and Means Committee, mr. Jason smith of missouri, is waved on to the committee for the purpose of making an Opening Statement at questioning the witnesses in todays committee hearing. I want to thank chairman smith and chairman jordan for their cooperation and working with the Oversight Committee on this investigation. This is an important joint effort that shows the American People that accountability matters regardless of your last name. For this hearing, Opening Statements will be limited to ten minutes for the chair and ten minutes for the Ranking Member. I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an Opening Statement. Since assuming a republican majority in january, the house Oversight Committee has made historically fast progress in our investigation into the biden family influence peddling schemes. Just six months, we have obtained thousands of pages of financial records. This includes bank records for biden Family Associates and suspicious activity reports generated by the biden and their associates dollars and foreign business transactions. What these records reveal is astonishing. The bidens created over 20 Shell Companies, most of which were created when joe biden was Vice President. Bank records so far show the biden family, the Business Associates, and their companies, received over 10 million from foreign nationals and related companies. A lot of this money poured in while joe biden was Vice President. Despite creating Many Companies after the Vice President took office, the biden used associate companies to receive millions of dollars from Foreign Companies in china, ukraine, and romania. After Foreign Companies sent money to Business Associates companies, the bidens then received incremental payment overtime to various Different Bank accounts. These complicated Financial Transactions were used deliberately to conceal the source of funds and total amounts. No normal business operates like that. What were the bidens selling . Nothing but influence and access to the biden network. This is an influence peddling scheme to enrich the bidens. We need to know whether joe biden is compromised by these schemes, and if our National Security is threatened. During our investigation, our committee became aware through whistleblower disclosures provided to senator Chuck Grassley that the fbi had an unclassified record that details and extortion and bribery scheme involving then Vice President biden and a burisma executive. This record was generated by a confidential human source that the fbi has used over a decade. It with a burisma executive complaint that he paid joe biden 5 million in exchange for certain actions. The burisma executive told the confidential human source that he didnt pay the, quote, big guy, and quote. Directly, but that he used so many black accounts that it would take ten years to unravel. Now that sounds an awful lot like how the biden family conducts business, using multiple Bank Accounts to hide the source in total amount of the money. Today, we have to brave incredible whistleblowers who have risked their careers to come forward and provide testimony. Thank you all for being here today. I know it was not an easy decision. Their testimony about the doj, the fbi, and irs investigation of hunter biden confirms the committees findings. That there is nothing normal about the biden familys Business Activity. The white house and democrats would have americans believe that our investigation is based on five years of conspiracy theories. But we have facts and new evidence continues to be revealed on the first familys corruption. The bidens have put themselves first and americans. Last we will continue to follow the money trail and provide answers and accountability than americans demand and deserve. With that, i yield to the chairman of the ways and Means Committee, jason smith. Thank you, chairman comer. The ways and Means Committee is charged with ensuring that the tax code is enforced fairly. Clearly, the president only believes in making taxpayers pay their fair share if they dont share his last name. These two courageous whistleblowers, provided my committee with devastating testimony showing that the government is not treating all taxpayers equally, and the doj at the irs k preferential treatment to the president s son during a criminal investigation into his taxes. These individuals in front of us today are credible and sat for nearly 15 hours of interviews with both republican and democrat. I personally took part in the interviews with mr. Ziegler. Heres what we learned from the interviewing. The irs recommended multiple, multiple felony charges, against hunter biden fort texas since 2014 through 2019. Relating to at least 8. 3 million in income from Foreign Companies including one based including Companies Based in china, romania and ukraine. That is the amounts discovered despite the roadblocks. The department of justice engaged in a campaign to delay, divulge, and deny that investigation. They delayed investigators for years. Leading to the expiration of the statute of limitations for many of the crimes involved. They divulged key investigative details to bidens attorney and even the president Transition Team. And they denied investigators the ability to authenticate evidence, served warrants, question witnesses, and bring charges. This led to Hunter Bidens sweetheart agreement and now five years after the investigation started, but mere days before my committee voted to publicly release this testimony. Would americans in my congressional district, or any other congressional district, ever receive this same treatment . After raising their concerns internally at the irs, these whistleblowers were discouraged and demoralized and turned to congress as a last resort. They bravely reported wrongdoings to us and what have President Bidens allies, including Hunter Bidens lawyers, done . They have responded with a Vicious Smear Campaign to discredit these whistleblowers and discourage others from coming forward. They may have even coordinated with the white house on this effort. This is a disgrace. I urge any irs employees watching today, if you know of misconduct, please come to the ways and Means Committee so we can hold accountable those who are responsible. And let me be clear, there will be zero tolerance for any retaliation against whistleblowers by doj and the irs. The American People expect answers about whether the federal government is treating all taxpayers equally, or if the wealthy and politically connected getting special treatment. Our committees are working together to get to the bottom of this abuse of power, and will work tirelessly to do so, and to make sure it doesnt ever happen again. Americans should not have to accept to tears of justice in this country. One of your last name is biden, and one for everybody else. I want to thank both whistleblowers for coming forward publicly and for their testimony today. I yield to mr. Jordan. I thank the gentleman for yielding. The question is who will you believe . April 26th in front of the United States senate, the attorney general said david white is in charge of the investigation. October 7th in a meeting with gary shabbily, one of the whistleblowers, david whyte said i am not the deciding official. Who will you believe . On february 28th i wrote the attorney general asking him why there is no special counsel in the hunter biden investigation. He did not respond. Thats unusual in it of itself. They always respond when we come to them. I will begin on may 25th, again the attorney general did not respond but david whyte did. And heres what he said. June 7th, he said this, i have been granted of the midauthority over the matter including responsibility for deciding where, when, at whether to file charge charges. That is what the u. S. Attorney said on june 7th. Three weeks later, mr. Weiss broke me again. He said this. I stand by what i wrote, but i wish to expand. Wow. Already changing his story 23 days later. He said this, my charging authority is geographically limited to my home district. Wait a minute, you just told me 23 days before that you have ultimate authority. Now you change it. Then again on july 10th, mr. Weiss wrote, senator graham, and he said this. Paragraph two, the clarify i have not requested special counsel designation, rather i had discussions with departmental officials. Mr. Weiss cant get his story straight. Three different stories than a fiveweek timeframe. June 7th, hes saying i have ultimate authority and do what i want. While charges were i want, when when i want, how i want. June 30th he says, well, actually i cant. And of course on july 10th he says, to clarify, i havent requested special counsel status but ive been talking to the folks. Three different positions and a little over a month. You know whose story has not changed . These two guys. Their testimony has been consistent throughout. Their testimony has been the same. And guess what . Two days ago, an fbi agent confirmed their testimony. Were you going to believe . The Justice Department cant get their story straight, it changed three times in 33 days, or the two guy guys . The Justice Department two weeks ago from the federal court in louisiana. The Justice Department that said moms and dads are terrorists. The Justice Department that if you are prolife catholic, you are an extremist. The Justice Department that cant get its story straight, for these two guys . Ten years, over a decade of experience for each of them, those two Guys International tax evasion cases. The 18 when it comes to investigating these letters all over the world theyve done this. And who have been consistent throughout. I think i believe these guys. I think they are the ones telling the truth. And that is fundamentally what this comes down to. So god bless you guys for the work youve done at the court you have, and for being here today. Stepping forward because you care about equal treatment under the law. That is what is at stake plain and simple. I yield back. I now yield to the Ranking Member, mr. From maryland, by his statement. Thank, you mister chairman. I thought we were here on a matter that the chairman declared a top priority there to say to find evidence of wrongdoing by President Biden, but now the majority the star witness turned out to be a fugitive from american justice. Indicted an eight federal criminal counts and an unregistered Foreign Agent for china who tried to trade chinese arms for iranian oil. After bank records, form 10 23, we can conclude that this inspector clue so style quest for something that does not exist turns our committee into a theater of the absurd, an exercise in futility and embarrassment. Now we can finally definitively say why the committees efforts have run drive time and again. Just yesterday, mister chairman, you and i got a letter from liz parnas the murder who is it really Rudy Giuliani side as giuliani and then President Trump tried to smear joe biden before the 2020 election with the very same allegation, we are still running through the political spin cycle every week in this committee. I request unanimous consent to enter the parnas record letter. In this extraordinary ten page rapper, parnas painstakingly describes the campaign orchestrated by giuliani and trump to quote, dig up dirt by the biden spread misinformation about them through various networks including govern officials, journalist, and fox news personnel. After explaining this campaign to fabricate trump charges against biden, he concluded his letter that throughout all these months of work at the campaign down by trump allies, giuliani associates, including the enormously thorough interviews which i, quote, there has never been any evidence that hunter or joe biden committed crime related to the ukrainian politics. Never during any of my communication with ukrainian officials are connections did any of them confirm or provide concrete facts linking the bidens to illegal activity. As mr. Parnas concludes, there has never been any factual evidence, only conspiracy theories, spread by people who knew exactly what they were doing. He calls on this committee to end its wild goose chase and offers to come and testify. Remember, this is mr. Giulianis guy. This is his interpreter and righthand man we spent a year out there trying to cook the books against joe biden. He offers to come testify. If anyone doubts anyone he is saying, lets bring him in as a witness. Lets hear about that crusade but they were on to smear President Biden by promoting the same baseless conspiracy spear ease that this committee serves up as moldy leftovers every day. At todays hearing we are going to hear about wrongdoing by hunter biden. Pleading guilty on two tax charges and a gun charge next week. We will hear about the back and forth among investigators, prosecutors, and a trump appointed u. S. Attorney. Over a dozen people who spent four years investigating the president son. We will hear about how they disagreed about investigative steps and what criminal charges to bring all no evidence that President Biden has involved himself in any way in the investigation into his own son. An investigation that has been overseen by trumps appointed u. S. Attorney. No matter what my gop colleagues say, i appreciate the testimony of our witnesses today, there is no evidence that hunter biden has received any kind of official favoritism in this prosecution for being to bidens son. On the contrary, there are more than 10 million americans who have filed tax pays to the exact crime that hunter biden is pleading guilty to, the vast majority of these cases are resulting in administratively or through civil settlement. Every year, at the irs and doj appoint convictions in fewer than 700 cases protects crimes of any kind. A miniscule percentage. The fact that hunter biden faced a fouryear criminal probe involving dozens of agents and prosecutors, from the irs to the fbi and the u. S. Returnees office in delaware, the doj, demonstrates in my mind at the very least that he received no special treatment, but arguably tougher treatment than the millions of people who never faced criminal investigation. If my gop colleagues think that the treatment of millions of tax or even a handful who face criminal prosecution of hunter biden is too lenient, i invite them to join us democrats in supporting the 80 billion dollars in funding for the irs that we passed in the Inflation Reduction Act last year. This money will enable the irs to make long overdue improvements to customer service, but will also enabl appointed u. S. Attorney and a rich guy exercising his Second Amendment right, but now facing criminal gun charges and charges that they would call in any other circumstance purely technical. We are about to hear testimony from two irs criminal investigators. They will describe their frustrations and disagreements with their supervisors, as well as with mr. Weiss and his team of prosecutors, would be considered junior varsity, and not up to snuff during the Trump Administration generally. We will also hear about their confusion and profound misunderstanding about mr. Weiss and how he reviewed the evidence and made the ultimate decision about charging hunter biden. A lot of the controversy here relates to agent failure to distinguish between special counsels special lawyers, but we will clear that up today. The key point, mister chairman, America Needs to understand is that the only political interference at play here is coming from donald trump at my republican colleagues. We will listen carefully to the testimony and i thank, you mister chairman. Directing the yield back. I would like to remind the members of the public that section 60 103 of the tax code makes taxpayer information confidential, except in certain circumstances. One of those extensions is the process the ways and Means Committee used to receive testimony from these whistleblowers, and report transcripts of their testimony to the full house of representatives to make that information public. These whistleblowers have gone above and beyond to submit information to congress in accordance with the law, and we are grateful to them for that. The witnesses can only testify to Tax Information that has already been released through proper procedures through the wins it ways and Means Committee. That means in some incidents this they might have to declined to answer questions and instead submit Additional Information to the ways and Means Committee at a later date through the appropriate process. They are each accompanied by counsel to address questions that arise on section 6103, and are not present and are present today tonight i asked members to respect that process and requirements of section 6103, and look forward to hearing what our courageous witnesses have to say. Further, due to the complex nature of the matter at hand, each of the witnesses shall have ten minutes for their opening testimony. I would now like to introduce our witnesses. Mr. Joseph ziegler is a special agent with the Internal Revenue service, criminal investigation division, specifically assigned to the International Task financial crimes division. This is a group of 12 elite especially gents who are subject Matter Experts in complex International Tax and other related crimes. He started his career with the irs in 2010 as a special agent, and has developed successfully successfully completed a multitude of complex financial investigations. The types of investigations include Money Laundering, bank fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, health care fraud, violations of the bank secrecy act, income tax evasion, and income tax related charges, which is Identity Theft and violate false claims for income tax refund. Ziegler has won multiple performance awards throughout his career for recognition of his work. Mr. Gary shipley is the advisory special agent of the International Tax and financial crimes division. Shipley started his career in july of 2009. He was in the department of justice text vision from 2013 to 2018 investigating foreign institutions. Foreign financial institutions. He was also assigned to the joint Terrorism Task force working as a Task Force Officer at both the fbi washingtonville this, and the fbi baltimore field office. Mr. Shapley was promoted to supervisory special agent of the elite etf seat group in 2018. He also served as the assistant special assistant in charge of both the new York Field Office and chicago field office. I want to thank again both gentlemen for their willingness to come forward and share their testimony today for the members of this committee and for the American People. Pursuant to Committee Rule nine g, the witnesses will please stand and raise the right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god . I do. I stepped forward, i believe that i am risking my career, my reputation, and my casework outside of investigation we are here to discuss. I, came to forward which were multiple times blowing the whistle in the Internal Revenue service. At the Internal Revenue service. No one should be above the law, regardless of your political investigation. I help viewed my role today in providing the facts as i best interest in the. To allow congress and the menstruation and the public to consider those facts, to consider the best path forward. I recognize as president in the start of instigation, and was closely involved in the embassys been probably five years. Climb just a part of the story. Others, including my colleague, supervisor gary shapley, here with me today, have their own he isnt understandings of what took place during this investigation. I have been an agent with the irs since 2010. In 2007 i received my undergraduate receipt degree from ohio university. Why mba from john carroll university. Upon starting my career at the irs, i worked at urged in young as an extra auditor. Throughout my career with the irs, i have worked a variety of successful criminal tax and Money Laundering investigations. In 2018, i transitioned into being a part of the International Tax of Financial Crimes Group out of the washington d. C. Crime office. I was a lead iris kates agent on the hunter biden investigation. I recently discovered that people are saying i must be more credible because im a democrat who happens to be married in a man. I am no more credible than this man sitting next to me due to my Sexual Orientation or my political beliefs. The truth is, my credibility comes today from my job the variance with the iris. And my intimate knowledge with the Agency Standards of and procedure. I have always striving to do what is right. I do have my supporters, others have said i am a traitor to the democratic party. Lamb causing more division in our society. I implore you to consider that if you were in my position with the fact that i stated them, ask yourself if you would be doing the exact same thing. I hope that i am an example to other lgbtq people out there who are questioning doing the right thing at the potential cost to themselves and others. We should always do the right thing, no matter how painful the process might be. I equate this to the experience and feeling zion countered when coming out. It was, honestly, one of the hardest things every went through. I contemplated a scenario that wouldve been highly regrettable. I did what was right. Im standing here in front of you today. I would first like to take a minute to thank people for their unfettered help and support. First of god, for giving me the strength and courage to get through this process. My husband, who has been my rock. Putting up with me, my stress, and hasnt had to deal with his own personal information being out there. My attorney, dean derby, who has agreed to represent me through this matter pro bono. Provided some much help. My colleague from the hunter biden investigation. The work that was done on the case is tremendous. But seems to be overshadowed by what is happening here today. I just want to say to the Investigative Team that i am thankful for having worked with you. I also want to thank my family and friends back home in northeast ohio. And georgia. I do not live in the d. C. Area. I had to fly here. Ive had to pay out of pocket for all of my travel related expenses in being a whistleblower. On that note, i would like to make another statement that i have not accepted a single payment from anyone for being a whistleblower. First, mister chairman, my written statement as well as my testimony before the ways and Means Committee i would like to touch on, briefly seven specific matters. First, in a recent letter to congress, mr. Weiss stated he had been granted ultimate authority over this matter. Later stated in the same letter that his charging authorities geographically limited he. Would need a President Biden appointed u. S. Attorney to chart of the case. Mr. Weiss stated he was making all decisions necessary to preserve the integrity of the prosecution consisting with federal law, the principles of federal prosecution and departmental regulation. The colonel manual chapter ten found on the doj website, tax division policy states that cases involving individuals who failed to file tax returns or pay a tax, but who also commit acts of evasion or obstruction, should be charged in felonies to avoid inequitable treatment. In early august of 2022 federal prosecutors from the department of justice to activision drafted a 99page memorandum. In so, they were recommending, for approval, felony and misdemeanor charges for the 20 1718, 19, tax year. That did not happen here. I am not sure why. As to the special agent on this case, i thought the felony charges were well supported. Considering the elements of a felony tax cases under the criminal code there are two key considerations. Well fanatics and tax owing. In the criminal context, wolf illness is defined voluntary intentional violation of unknown legal duty. The tax losses a monetary loss of the government. In early 2020, hunter biden on the filed and delinquent tax returns were being prepared, which included 2018 tax return. During the 2025 period, by Hunter Bidens own account, he was sober. Newly married. And writing his memoirs. Hunter bidens accounts requested that he signed a representation letter saying that all of the deductions were for business purposes. And were being reported appropriately. Statements the hunter biden made in his book completely contradicts and what he has reported it business deductions on his 2018 return. While riding his memoir, biden stated i hold up in the chateau for the first six weeks and learned how to crack. Hunter biden allegedly falsely claimed for business for payments made to the shelter moment, a hotel room for his supposed drug dealer, sixth membership. Falsely referenced on the wire at a golf membership. Hotels he was blacklisted from, a Columbia University tuition payment, for his adult daughter. All of these items were used in the willfulness element for felony tax evasion. These false deductions claim by hunter biden caused a false return to be repaired. On the reporting his total income by approximately 267,000. A loss to the u. S. Treasury of 106,000. Second, with respect to the 2014 tax year hunter biden not report any of the money he earned from the 2014 tax here which would have been a tax loss to the government of 124,000. According to my previous testimony, hunter biden did not report this income to the irs or pay tax on that source of income. There is nothing that i. C. E. In the public documents as the department of justices actions against hunter biden which indicate that hunter biden will be required to pay tax on this income from 2014. Or amend his 2014 tax return. I would like to know that the plea agreement, when released, may provide a great understanding. Third, i would like to make clear that the charging documents for the district of delaware hunter biden was charged with failure to timely pay his taxes for 2017 and 18 in excess of 100,000 for each tax year. On Hunter Bidens 2017 a 18 tax return, biden reported taxes owned of approximately 520,000 and 620,000 respectfully. This tax amount in 2018 would not have included the alleged additional tax owing from the filed false return of 106,000. Thus as i read the public documents at the department of justices actions against hunter biden there is nothing that indicates hunter biden will be required to amend his false tax return from 2018. If all stacks return that includes improper deductions for prostitutes, six clubs, and his Adult Childrens to asian. Again, perhaps when the plea agreement is released, it may provide us with a greater understanding. The decision to bring felony counts against hunter biden was agreed to by both prosecutors and investigators in the fall of 2021 i met with prosecutors assigned to the case. We all agreed and decide which charges we would recommend in the prosecution report which included felony counts related to 2017 and 18. In march of 2022 the prosecutors requested a discovery from the Investigative Team and present of the case of the d. C. U. S. Attorneys office. And later meetings in early august of 2022, the prosecutors, all four attorneys, agreed to recommend felony and misdemeanor charges for the 20 1718, and 19 tackler. Insofar as the department of Justice Tax Division attorney sent an email about the process of bringing charges to include felony and misdemeanor tax charges in two separate districts. Delaware in los angeles. Less than a month later, gary shaft leon i met with mr. Weiss. He stated that he agreed with us regarding the 2014 tax year misdemeanor and felony charges. That this could, somehow, a fight though later misdemeanor felony charges that he conveyed were stronger. Despite these facts, the plea deal that has been discussed occurred. To this day, i do not have a reason why that occurred. From my perspective, this might not have been problematic had the investigation been handled in the ordinary court. Fifth, as i previously testified and is contained in my written testimony, i outline for you some instances where assigned prosecutors did not appear to follow the normal investigative process, throughout the investigation, putting into place unnecessary approvals and roadblocks from effectively and efficiently investigating the case. A number of times we were not able to follow the facts. Im happy to respond to questions regarding this event. Sixth, i will also note that the impression have been conveyed from the u. S. Attorney of delaware that he is similar powers to those of his Better Council in this case, free reign to do as needed, that is not the case. It appeared to me, based on what i experienced, that the u. S. Attorney in delaware, in our investigation with limited and hamstrung by doj officials as well as other u. S. Attorneys. I still think that a special counsel is necessary for this investigation. To further handle ancillary investigations that are spun off and relate to hunter biden but may not have the new in delaware. I lastly would like to conclude, again, by Encouraging Congress and the administration to consider establishing an official channel for investigators to pull emergency cord and raise the issue of the appointment of a special counsel for consideration by senior officials. I do not want like all leagues at the irs, fbi, in other federal Law Enforcement agencies to go through my frustrating journey. To go through my frustrating journey, and that of our team. I remain that such a path will strengthen the Public Confidence in their institution. In the fair and equal treatment of all americans under the law. Thank, you i look forward to your questions. Thank you very much. The chair now recognizes mr. Sattley for his Opening Statement. Thank you for inviting me to testify here today. I want to thank every member from both sides of the aisle who work to represent your constituents and to hold government accountable. A name is gary shipley. I worked with a special agent for the irs criminalization for 14 years. I recently became a senior leader. And in the International Crimes group. I work directly with the United States attorney in multiple districts. I have supervised investigated cases were more than a dozen u. S. Attorney offices were across a country. I have led, planned, or executed undercover operations and search warrants under and other countries. I have investigated manage some of the largest cases in the history of the agency. We are covering more than three above a billion for United States taxpayer. In this country we believe in the rule of law. That applies to everyone. There should not be a two track just a system depending on who you are and who are your connected to. In this case, there was. Based on my experience i will tell you that at the u. S. Department handling the hunter biden tax investigation, it was very different than any other case than my 14 years in the irs. At every stage, decisions were made that benefited the subject of this investigation. For example, prosecutors conceal the contents of Hunter Bidens laptop from investigators. Doj slow walked interviews and executing search warrants. Warrants that were ready as early as april of 2020 but were delayed until after the november 2020 election. Never pursued after that. Investigators were not allowed to follow up on what messages from Hunter Bidens apple icloud backup. Where he suggested he was sitting next to his father. Since the United States attorney, leslie, wolf executed a search warrant of President Bidens residents, a designing fighter for not allowing it even though she agree that probable cause existed. Prosecutors instructed investigators not to ask about the big guy, or dad, when conducting interviews. The team was ticked off about interviews the night the investigation went over. The fact that the fbi counterpart confirmed to this committee in recent testimony where a result was only one witness spoke to investigators that day. These are just. Some of the examples of how our investigation was stymied. Climb not here to support partisan agendas on either side. Im here because our tax system relies on the American People having confidence that it is administered fairly and equally for everyone. And the political connection. The handling of this case was inappropriate. It didnt happen whether it happened under a republican or democratic administration. Whether you concern about the ethical slow walking and preferential treatment in this case. They are true and correct to the best of my ability. Unfortunately already handled by some members in the media which did and measurable damage to a community of whistleblowers. I am confident and falsely accused of being a liar, or both. All by people who know nothing about me or the facts of this case. Some question effect should even be called the whistleblower. Suggesting the law we have seen the shoe on the other foot before. Some republicans made the same error. They have plenty of blame for both sides. The cycle of villainizing or canonizing employee report what they believe is wrong has to stop. When i first started noticing deviation from the normal investigative process around june 2020, that did not run to congress to air grievances. Instead i documented my concerns trying to benefit prosecutors for a very long time. The prosecutor from the end of 2021, the irs recommended charging hunter biden was several felonies and misdemeanors for the tanks you 2014 to 2019. Delaware District Attorneys and taxable trial attorneys supported charging the felonies and misdemeanors listed in exhibit two of my interview transcript from page 44 and 45. Officially referred to the department of justice in february, 2022. This case was presented this was presented in around march of 2022 attorney general merrick darling with us how confident the American People be investigating the president s own son . President garland responded by saying, we put the investigation in the hands of a trump appointee. He led congress to believe thats a case was insulated from improper political influence because all decisions were being made exclusively by delaware state attorney, weiss. That was not true. The Justice Department allowed the president political point of used to weigh in on whether to charge the president s on. Attorney for d. C. , matthew graves, appointed by President Biden, refused to bring charges of march of 2022. I watch the United States attorney weiss teller roomful of senior fbi and iris leaders on october 7th, 2022, that he was not the deciding person on where the charges were filed. That was my red line. I dont have seen a pattern now weiss was admitting that what the units of people believe based on the attorney general stamos falls. I could not learn stay silent. In november 2022 the statute of limitations was set to expire for the 2014 in 2015 charges in d. C. Which included the 2014 felonies for the attempt to evade fraud or false statements involving income earned by hunter biden in those years. A statute of limitations have been extended by 20 agreement with hunter biden Defense Council. They were willing to extend it past november 2022. Weiss allowed those to expire. Prosecutors presented the 2017, 2018, 2019 criminal tax charges to the central digit of california and september 2022, only after President Bidens nominee, mark estrada, was confirmed. In january of this year i learned that estrada had declined to bring the charges. For all intents and purposes, the case was dead except for one lone charges could be brought in delaware. Yeah when senator joe grassley asked attorney general Merrick Garland in 2023 garland testified the United States attorney has been advised they have full authority to make the roads you are talking about when to bring cases in other districts when he needs to do that he should be advised that he should get anything he need. After the october seven redline meeting, there was no way to reconcile attorney general weisss statement, his offices actions, with attorney general garlands public testimony. It i am 100 present service that the delaware Political Office so approval from the democratic nominees. New york times reported that independently charges in california. Plenty of other witnesses are familiar with the facts, in addition to those who witnessed attorney general weisss private emission. I encourage them to step forward and tell the truth about what happened in what they heard. Let me be clear, although these facts contradict attorney general garlands testimony in raise very problems for his. I never claimed to have evidence that attorney general garland knowingly lied to congress. Whether attorney general garland knew his testimony was false is for you in the Inspector General to determine, not me. The same is true for United States whys attorney is for others to investigate. To determine whether those letters contain knowingly false statements. However, it is clear that the United States attorney general weisss story to the American Public had evolved. He has gone from unequivocaly echoing attorney general garland to, just one month later, corroborating the disclosure that we made. Why some firsts that he could charge anywhere. Then, he admitted that he is geographically limited. To go beyond those limits, why slater emitted that he had to partner and get special authority. Garland said that wife has the authority. The United States attorney weiss said he has been assured he would get the authority. If you never requested or denied special authority from attorney general garland, as he told us on october 7th, the American Public tour why 2014 2015 dc charges to expire. No number of carefully warded denials or evolving half truth can overshadow the stark fact. United states attorney weiss and garland will each be sitting before these committees one day. They will have to admit that despite all of the obfuscation, the absolute fact was this case was presented president ial e appointed u. S. Attorneys in california they will tell you everything that you need to know. I do not claim to be privy to United States attorney weisss or Merrick Garlands communication. But weiss told us that he was not the deciding person. He had requested but was denied special authority after d. C. Decline charges. If california declines, he would have to request a special authority again. I understood the gravity of those admissions. With the full mission live with weiss or attorney general garland, for Congress Early 20 general, it is ultimately for the public to decide. Undecided after october 7th to come forward. I began researching whistleblower tierneys. I wanted to abide by the law in every way at the navigating the complex the whistleblower process was followed to the lover with the life of council at every step. I am fortunate to be represented by marc lyle, fraternal prosecutor for 25 years. Including five years for the department of justice tax evasion. Im also grateful the power of oversight, a nonprofit Whistleblower Group whose president , christian levant, with previously nominated by President Biden in the american system protection board and unanimously confirmed by the United States senate. Some have tried to paint me with a brush while employees and former staffers and gop members from capitol hill their expertise developed working for the patron saint whistleblower center, Chuck Grassley, it has been invaluable. Meanwhile, the biden family attorneys appear to be representing hunter biden, President Biden, and the department of justice. They are not working for free. It has been reported in Public Services that they are large fund of her biden family attorney. The source of those funds are unknown. They have virtually unlimited resources to pursue their agenda. While my motives for questions simply for finding competent representation from a small nonprofit to help whistleblowers. Troops arches empower oversight were only path to ensure whistleblowers like me are heard and receive confident advice. My intention was not to be your sole source of information. I implore you to take the necessary steps to obtain as much evidence of possible from as many sources as possible to be able to fully inform your conclusion. Im confident that you have done that, and both sides will find serious interview problems with the hunter biden investigation that closely aligned with my testimony. No matter your party, i am not your opposition. I am here with information for you to examine and investigate. To determine if more action is warranted on the report. I am on your team, whether we agree on every politically sensitive issue or not. There is no benefit for me blowing the whistle in this case, absolutely none. I have no book deal. The only money that goes into my bank account every two weeks from my employment or the federal government. I am still a supervisor leading 12 fantastic agents working complex International Best occasions. Oh fortunately to this day, my immediate supervisors or retaliating against me for making disclosures. Last, fall of the biden family attorneys attacked the investigators in the pages of the Washington Post. Threatening prosecutors with career suicide if they brought charges against the president some. One of the biden family attorneys then sent the press a ten page, it will field, letter attacking me with innuendo, fall statements, and baseless speculations that i had leaked information to the Washington Post. These statements by the biden family attorneys are false. In conclusion, the American People for whom this body works, i implore you to look at the facts. Not agenda leased statements from either side of the aisle. Im the average american citizen who worries about how i will send my kids to college and if i will ever have enough money to retire, just like most people watching today. I am the first person in my family or college. It was not and i lead school. I do not have a network of rich and powerful friends down the weather the storm through retaliation in characters rca shun. I am putting myself at risk for the American People who support me, and for those who do. Not at the end of the day i am just a small town kid from norwich, new york. I worked hard to get where i am. I will never compromise my integrity. I will never forget who i am, where i come, from all the people in my life have made me who i am today. Thank you all for your time. Thank, you both, for those excellent Opening Statements. We will now begin the questioning phase. I will begin the questioning. We will start with mr. Ziegler. Here on the committee we focus on following the evidence. Specifically, the money trail through bank records and suspicious activity. I want to discuss with you specific payments made to hunter biden, and the biden family. Democrats and left wing media also say they are so lets get into the evidence, mr. Think. Where i want to address pages 90 9 am 100 of your transcript. How much money did hunter byline in his associates received from the remaining company you identified . That amount would be, from romania, the approximate total transfers from the Romania Company would have been 3. 1 million. How much did hunter violin and his associates received from state energy hklimited through the llc . Total transfer from state energy hk from ralph walker with 3 million. Was there a 100,000 dollar payment from cfc infrastructure to hunter biden professional corporation . Yes, chairman. Approximately how much was transferred from a hunter biden Business Associates through the hudson and west three . The total transfer from hudson west to everyone was 3. 7 million. How much money did hunter biden in his Business Associates received from the ukrainian company, burisma . They paid everyone involved 6. 5 million. They also paid Blue Star Strategies and a law firm hundreds of thousands of dollars. Bringing the total burisma payments to over 7 million. Is that correct . That is correct. 7. 3 million. Between 2014 in 2019 this brings a total amount of foreign income streams receive to approximately 70 million, correct . That is correct. What was the purpose of analyzing money from foreign sources . Do you have documents to support your findings . So, the purpose of documenting the foreign sources is we, as part of a normal International Tax investigation, we have to figure out where the money is coming from. We have to follow the money trail. As part of that process we have to follow different transactions. Identify different entities that may be paying a person. We go and get those records. Right . So, hopefully you can provide that to the committee. Yes. Any records regarding those transactions we love evidence on this side of the aisle. On page 80 of your transcript you identified other bynum family members who received relevant payments the investigation. Such as, grandchildren. Could you explain why you wanted to interview them . So, as a part of the investigation you want to interview people who might have received money. People who might have had deductions that were deducted on their tax returns. There are a multitude of reasons why you may want to talk to family members. Is the common for grandchildren to receive money from foreign nationals . Significant business wires . I dont know the reason, i did not know what is behind any of the payments that might have been made to specific family members. I can speak to what was paid. What within our transcript. I would advise immediate today to review the committees bank records memorandum. A closely matches the iris we will have a supplemental memorandum discussing payments from ukraine, russia, and other sources very soon. Based on bank records that we have recently received but have not disclosed yet. Sir, you have confirmed for me what ive been saying all along. The committee has accomplished in five months what it took the department of justice five used to figure out. Mr. Shipley, i want to discuss certain executive steps that you said wouldve led to President Biden. Can you discuss what steps he wanted to take what you could . And there were multiple instances in this investigation where there are references to the father of the subject, President Biden. In the course of any normal investigation when the subjects father is somehow related to the finances of the subject, in the normal course of any investigation, we would have to go and get that information too properly that the financial flows of money in that investigation to determine what we end up charging. There was a tweet, a message, in the laptop from hunter biden to kevins dawn, who was with cfc. It said, quote, the bidens are the best i know and doing exactly what the chairman wants from this partnership. Now, the chairman he is referring to is chairman ye of cmc. Is that correct . And that stream i believe so, yes. Can you tell me what the bidens are best that . Do you understand what he wouldve meant by that . This is a chinese company. I think the Ranking Member referred to it the same and to that paid the money that he was indicted for being an unregistered Foreign Agent, i believe that is the charge. This is a another solicitation from hunter biden. He refers to the bidens, floral. They are best doing what the chairman wants. I think that is very concerning to our committee. This is a Chinese Communist party owned entity. This is of concern to our National Security. I didnt know, in closing, if you had any information with respect to that comment there . That message is something we clearly need to follow up on. That was really one of the major deviations in this case. Investigators, its specially mister ziegler, hoping to take some investigative steps to review that. Its simply was not supported by the prosecutors. Further delving into what that means, i simply cannot do. I can promise you we are not stop on this committee until we understand what he fully meant by that message to a Chinese Communist party official. Mister chairman, may i Say Something on that . Yes, please. Thank you for that question. There was a long watch that message contained in that. That was only a portion of it. What we can do, what we can go back, we can turn that over to the house ways and Means Committee. They can vote to release. At that information can be available for you. Thank you, thank you very much. I now yield to Ranking Member ashton. Thank, you mister chairman. I want to thank both of the witnesses for their testimony of her appearing here with us today. It seems to me that a lot of your testimony has been about the problem of prosecutorial discretion, in the traditional tug of war between investigators who, characteristically, want to charge as many events as they come across, and prosecutors, who are more attuned to the rigors of the courtroom and the complexity of forensic evidence. I admit, as a former state assistant attorney general, i see it more from a prosecutor standpoint then the investigator standpoint. Mr. Shapley, what would you can see that there are a lot of crimes that are investigated by both theaters that are not actually charged by prosecutors, routinely . I will give you an example, and the recent indictment of donald trump for retaining government documents that he unlawfully took, according to the indictment, he was charged, only, with the thing those documents that were recovered after the august 22 search warrant. He had hundreds of documents that were recovered before that. 15 boxes that were recovered in january and then after the granburys opinion jean. Prosecutors decided not to charge any of those offenses. They said they would take the most egregious offenses and charged of. Is that a familiar to you . That kind of decision by prosecutor . I cannot speak to anything related to the trump investigation, but, the issue here with this case is it wasnt just investigators who agreed with the charges. In exhibit two of my testimony it clearly shows the prosecutors recommendation report where it says, right in the document, the United States attorneys and the department of justice agree with those recommended charges. Then, again, special agent ziegler alluded to in late 2022 they were recommended to whom . The prosecution is referred to the hack division for approval, and discretion, or declination. Right. It all went to the u. S. Attorney in delaware, right . So, that is not entirely accurate. The department of Justice Tax Division, up through march 16th of 2023, had not yet approved provided discretion or decline charges. U. S. Attorney weiss had no authority to charge any of those charges without the department of justice text divisions approval beforehand. I would like to focus in on this real quick. Eric let me get back to you because i have a limited amount of time. And you have questions for you. In fact, mr. Ziegler, you state that Hunter Bidens unpaid taxes were around 2 million. He has no pay the best taxes, as i understand. It he has been criminally charge for not paying taxes. Would you just explain how people can be charged for not paying taxes even after they have made amends and gone on to pay . Them under the statute, when someone fails to timely pay the taxes, usually do april 15th, once that date occurs if they have a known Tax Liability and they failed to pay, the crime has already been committed. The fact that they pay the taxes after, that is a mitigating factor that the judge can use their discretion at sentencing. I would like to make one thing clear, this does not include the over 100,000 in additional tax owing which was not charged. The images of clear. You thought there were additional charges that relate on the table and not pursued by the u. S. Attorney weiss, a trump appointee. But mr. Shapley you testified with a critical moment in your decision to blow the whistle in the hunter biden investigation. The october 7th meeting, 2022, or that you had with u. S. Attorney, david weiss. Up to that point he said you are willing to talk up the differences with prosecutors to the typical, quote, investigator versus prosecutor type thing. Which is what i think this is all about. You see on page 28th of a transcript, if i wasnt in the october 7th meeting, my red line might not have been crossed. Something, i think, he reaffirmed today. As i understand, it crossing the red line is in that meeting you understood mr. Wexner saying that he did not have the authority to bring charges in d. C. Or california without the approval of the u. S. Attorneys for those districts. Is that correct . Yes. In a letter that he sent to chairman jordan in june, u. S. Attorney weiss stated, and i quote, i have been granted alternate 30 over this matter, including responsibility for deciding where, when, and whether to file charges. He won on to explain that considering charges in the district outside delaware, the usual doj practice will be, quote, contact the u. S. Attorneys office for the district in question. To determine whether it wants to charge the case. If that office declines he would request the authority to bring the charges himself under, quote, special attorney status from the attorney general pursuant to 28 usc section 5 18. To try to clear this up, mr. Shabbily, lets go back to march 2022. You explained in march the u. S. Attorney for d. C. Declined to partner with mr. Weiss to bring the 2014 in 2015 charges in d. C. After that decision by the u. S. Attorney for d. C. Mr. Weiss continued to discuss those charges with all of you. In fact, mr. Ziegler, on page 3900 transcribe you describe how in september of 2022 you had a meeting in which u. S. Attorney weiss expressed some concerns about those charges, including that in 2015 hunter biden was in the throes of his drug addiction out of the death of his brother. In that meeting, mr. Weiss told you, and i quote, i am still weighing in. Mr. Ziegler, in september of 2022, mr. Weiss was telling you that he was the one weighing whether to bring the 2014 and 2015 charges. Is that correct . That is correct. Coming back to october 7th 2022, mr. Shabbily, according to your testimony on page 125 quote, he decided not to charge 2014 2015. It seems to me that this october 7th 2022 meeting, which you have described as a red line, its just a misunderstanding. That after the u. S. Attorney in d. C. Declined a partner on the 14 or 15 charges, mr. Weiss took a good hard look at those charges himself. He ultimately decided not to charge them. Therefore, not to seek the special attorney status. He may have been right about that. He may have been wrong, you guys make your case for it. But, it was his decision. Isnt that right, mr. Shapley . No, that is not supported by the facts. Really. Which fact is that not supported . By his old emission in a meeting which i documentary contemporaneously. But he contradicts what you are saying. He does not agree with what you were saying about the meeting. I was not at that october 7th 2022 meeting. What was said at the meeting over two and a half years ago maybe a little ambiguous are unclear today. Mr. Weisss letter to chairman jordan could not be more clear. He says, quote, ultimate authority over this matter, including responsibility for deciding where, when, and whether to file charges. So, if there is any ambiguity, it has to go to u. S. Attorney weiss, Donald Trumps handpicked u. S. Attorney for delaware. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. We now recognize chairman smith. Can i Say Something real quick on that. I have two things i wanted to bring up. So, there are a lot of different tax cases out there that include misdemeanors and felonies. There are a lot of reasons why we charge the felony. We might charge the misdemeanor i want to be. Clear on this thing when you have a felony charged with a misdemeanor that you have to charge a felony. In this case, they did not charge a felony. There is one more point to this. We had a meeting with all excuse, me when you say you have to charge a felony, is that the department of justice rule youre saying . Its in their manual, they have to charge the felony in order to avoid an equitable treatment of tasha perez. Whether or not the evidence supports, it thats a part of that. Its in that analysis. Whether the evidence that goes back to the point of, the certains actions that were taken, the certain deductions that were taken on the tax return, thats for you to decide whether the felony was there or not. The point is, thats for the u. S. Attorney to decide. Im afraid were not going to be able to investigate every tax case recognizes mr. Smith from missouri. Thank you mister chairman, mr. Ziegler, i want to thank you both again for your testimony, your willingness to come forward and tell the truth for the American Public. I apologize of the behavior of some of our colleagues and how the press has treated you. For doing what is right for the American People, so they could see. It mr. Shabbily, included in the document you provided, the ways and Means Committee, its a document labeled exhibit two, in the transcript of your testimony, which is a portion of a special agent report, this document is located following page 41 of the transcript, this one, what is this document . What recommendations are made in this document . Yes, this is the prosecution recommendation report. The cia agents produced at the end of the investigation. Theyre going to recommend prosecution to the parliament of justice. This is all through by special agents ziegler. Its a robust document. Theres several thousand pages. The facts in the elements in this particular report, the elements of each viable meets that [inaudible] recommended felony charges for 2019, 2018. Misdemeanor charges for 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019. It further shows that, especially agents, ziegler spoke with prosecutors and work handinhand with prosecutors while this was being drafted, they clearly agreed that the violations were met. They supported this document. When it was sent, to the Department Said it for approval on up what level of confidence does the irs need to have the recommended to charges like the felony counts listed in this document . So, each violation, each element listed in the report, evidence is shown underneath each of it. This report goes through internal departments. Criminal investigations. In addition to the prosecutors agreeing, the evidence supported charging felony counts, the Senior Leadership of the director of the operations, the irs operations, they personally review this report and approved it to the department of Justice Division. Were you surprised that on june 20th 2023, prosecutors announced a plea agreement with hunter biden under which he would only plead guilty to violations of two misdemeanor charges . So, the guilty plea is outside of my control. What i can say, its not one investigator thought, especially its not what is ziegler or i thought the felony charges were proven. The prosecutors again and again agreed with that assessment. Attorney general im sorry, United States attorney white also agreed with these. He went to the d. C. U. S. Attorney to ask him to partner. You dont ask someone to partner with you if you dont yourself agree with the charges. When he got denied, he requested special authority, it was declined on the 2022 meeting. We in the report that we just had it states in there that even leslie wolf had agreed with these charges. The assistant prosecutor. Mr. Ziegler, on page 32 of the transcript of your testimony you discussed the need to interview Hunter Bidens children will regarding deductions you listed included on his tax return. Leslie wolf told you that you would get into hot water if contributed the president s grandchildren. In other cases that youve worked over your career have you ever had a prosecutor tell you that you couldnt interview a relevant witness . There are certain things that come into whether we talk to a witness or not. If they are an attorney if they are in some special situation that might come up it, might cause caution to interviewing that witness. I have never been told that we couldnt approach someone to interview them as a part of an investigation. Yeah, there are certain situations to where you have to do a further analysis of the information you might get. Like i, said if they are an attorney. Yes, in this case, we needed to talk to witnesses related to things that were deducted on the tax return. In this case it was the Adult Children that we needed to talk to. Thank, you mister chairman, my time is expired. The chair now recognizes law from illinois. Thank you mister shabbily, thank you mr. Ziegler for your services to this country. Rhea preshow you coming here and appearing in this capacity. First of, all mr. Ziegler, i see at page 12 of your transcript you start laying out a series of concerns that you had with regard to various people and various issues related to investigation. They say, quote, i started the investigation in 2018 after interviewing bank deposits. And then you letter say irs staff were not supported of starting the investigation. In 2018, joe biden is not the president. Joe biden was not the president , correct. Page 20, you lay out another concern. You had a concern about bill barr. Attorney general bill barr consolidating a series of cases into the u. S. Attorneys office in delaware. At that point, and he said, quote, what was the potential issue with working the case in delaware. We were working with a small u. S. Attorneys office who might not have ever worked a case of this caliber. Bill barr was appointed by donald trump, correct . We yes, that is correct. Let me turn to another concern you lay out in your testimony. You are concerned about the quality of the prosecutors on page 14. You say, quote, the prosecutors were the j. B. Squad. They werent up to the task of handling such a big case. Now, sir, u. S. Attorney white was also appointed by donald trump, right . As far as the actual nomination and what went into why im not asking you why. Im saying, it was appointed by donald trump, correct . That is. Correct now, another concern you lay out in your deposition. Page 21. You talk about your concerns about this investigation having been made over, being publicized. You said, quote, one of the first disagreements i had was the idea of going public. Now, sir, 2019, joe biden was not the president then. I did not thats not my question. In march, april of 2019, correct . Now, mr. Shabbily, let me turn to you for second here. You also raise a series of concerns in your deposition transcript. You said, you are concerned about the complexities of the election cycle. The potential delays that arose in connection with the election cycle. You said page 23 i remember there were always times where we were always on an impending election cycle. It was always the election being brought up in early 2020. It was a president ial primary. Joe biden was not the president at that time either. ,. Their decisions by the prosecution. It turns out that the delay in the election cycle was happening at a time when joe biden was not the president. That special agent zieglers. Mr. Ziegler and you shared concerns about delays related. At that time, joe biden was not the president. He was the nominee. He was not the president was he . Its a simple question. Can you rephrase . Joe biden was not the president. And the president ial primary in 2020. That is correct and mr. Shabbily you said that warrants for ready as soon as april 2022 began searching for records. Actions werent taken with regard to those warrants. Again, joe biden was not the president in april 2020, was he . Im confused by the line of questioning. Now President Biden was a part of it. He didnt have to be the president s to have election meddling. The question is this. Was he the president at that time . April 2020. Its been asked and answered. The answer . Is no. Thank you. I yield back. Please, you may answer the question. Its clear that he was not the president. An election is for the purpose of electing a president. Joe biden at the time was a nominee for president of the United States. Therefore, the election we are in effect, it wasnt until september 24th of 2020 that the department of justice Public Integrity so that we can no longer take any actions on that case. As early as april as early as april, april to june of 2020, the department of justice in the u. S. Attorneys office was evoking the election as a reason to not form those. The time is expired. We have a lot of questions. The chair now recognizes jordan of ohio. Thank, you mister chairman, last night they might send me two letters. The first letter on june 7th. He said, i have been granted ultimate authority over the matter including responsibility for indicting where, when and, whether to file charges. Later that same month he sent me the second letter. He said no, i dont. No, i dont i dont have that charging authority. He says im the boss, i can do whatever i want and wherever i want. He says no, i cant. What happened in between those . Your testimony went public. He goes, oh, my goodness i have to change my story. Now the truth is coming out. It sounds like in this investigation, to me, mr. Shabbily, that the prosecutors in the investigators were in agreement for most of the investigation. And then we get to october of 2022. Mr. Ziegler. That meeting is where david whyte told you something. What did he say . What did he say. He told me he was not the deciding person when that charge was filed. He told me that the d. C. Attorney is allowed he said that he requested and denied that. That is correct. Were you the only guy in that meeting . How many of the people . Where there are seven total people. You and mr. Wright and five others. Did any of them come forward and say what you just said is not true . They have not. No one has, right . No one is refuting no one said what you said is not true and did you memorialize what took place in that meeting . Did you memorialize that. When i return home from the u. S. Attorneys office i put it in an email to the soon to senior tight at my agency you put it in an email that day i got the email. Its in your testimony when youre interviewed by the ways and Means Committee october 7th friday 609 pm. Thats correct then to mr. Walden and bad or . Hes the director of Field Operations for their Southern Division he was the special agent in charge of the washington d. C. Office did mr. Walden get back to you. Do you remember he said . He said you covered it all he didnt say thanks but youre wrong thats not what happened he affirmed what you said. You covered all you laid it out. Just what you tell me a few moments ago. What mr. Wright told you in that meeting. When that goes public on june 22nd last month, mr. Wright says oh, i have got to change my story. I better send a letter to the Judiciary Committee. He said i stand by what i wrote. I will expand. I wish to fix it. And then he had to further go when he talked to, when he said a letter to senator graham, he said to clarify again, theyve changed their story. You guys have not. What do you think happened . Mr. Weiss was consistent with the investigators up into this october 7th meeting. He changed it. What do you think happened . I mean, i dont know what happened. What i can say is that the story has been changing from the department of justice and u. S. Attorney weiss, the only person that had any documents that have been corroborated on my own. I think thats what happened. I think its obvious. Anyones common sense can see it. He said it in mr. Grahams letter. He said i had discussions with the main justice. I had discussions with the big guys. The attorney general. I dont know who it was. He had discussions with people of justice. Suddenly things changed. That all became evident on october 7th. Until october 7th, the investigators, the investigators and the prosecutors, they were in agreement. Here are the facts. Heres how we do it. Heres how weve always done it. We have the two best agents in the place and on the case. Lets go. And then she is am. Something changes. I think its what mr. White conveyed. We had conduct discussions. We dont know what those discussions were. It looks pretty obvious what happened. It looks pretty obvious. Iran was pounding their chest. David whyte has complete authority. And now he doesnt. He doesnt. You guys came forward. You told the truth. I yield back. The chair now recognizes mr. Lynch from massachusetts. Thank, you mister chairman i want to thank the witnesses for their willingness to work with the committee. I am surprised. There seems to be a new level of hypocrisy here. As a longstanding member of this committee, i think most of the members who have served a long time here know full well what political interference and what sweetheart deals look like. I think context is very important in 2017. We had a situation where former National Security advisers and Trump Campaign surrogates Michael Flynn was indicted and then by the federal jury he bed guilty twice here is the National Security adviser for 22 days. My colleagues on the other side of the aisle had no interest. They had zero interest, in response, the president at the time President Trump repeatedly and publicly attacked the case and the agents who brought it including by claiming mr. Flynn was the victim of a quote unquote dirty, filthy coughs at the top of the fbi. Close quote. He also described the prosecution as a disgrace. Claims that those who investigated mr. Flynn were guilty of reason. Those were public statements. Attacking the fbi. Despite the fact that mr. Flynn pleaded guilty twice to lying to the fbi, President Trumps attorney general william barr personally intervened in the case and that Led Department of justice to abruptly reversed course and have the case dismissed. On grounds that a federal judge found dubious to say the least. Thats a quote from the judge. The trump associate and adviser roger stone, a federal jury found him guilty a congressional investigation into russian interference. The 2016 president ial election. By lying to congress. In response, a sitting president , President Trump immediately took to twitter. Attacking the department of justice. And playing a quote double standard and committing a quote, miscarriage of justice. President trump also publicly attack to the department sentencing recommendation for mr. Stone, leaving senior officials to overrule the federal prosecutors who had investigated and brought the case. This blatant political intervention, not complains at all by my republican colleagues at the time. It caused those prosecutors, some of, them to resign and withdraw from the case. President trump even congratulated former attorney general barr for interfering. That is what political intervention looks like. We know it on this committee. Paul manafort who worked to elect a prokremlin president in ukraine. Was convicted in 2018 of bank and tax fraud. Ultimately pleading guilty against the United States. Obstructing justice. President trump deemed it, quote, a very sad day for our country. In terms of sweetheart deals, and december of 2020, at the end of his term, President Trump granted full pardon to his close allies. Flynn, stone, manafort, allowing them to escape accountability for their numerous crimes. Now, that is a sweetheart deal. They got away with everything. Not by hunter biden, pleading guilty, such as the reputational damage an embarrassment to his family, the widely publicized facts of his drug addiction, and this was a trump appointed u. S. Attorney. They prosecuted this for four years. President biden did not seem to remove him. It happens when a new president comes into office. Mister chairman, i yield back. Im going to simplify this for the American People. We are here today because our institutions are broken. The doj, the fbi, the irs has transformed from a balance apparatus of justice and the political weapon of the left. A process that i believe began during the obama administration. They actively pursued individuals based on their beliefs targeting donald trump. They pose a significant threat. Upon his election, the bureaucratic resistance didnt stop. They are hatred for trump permeated fruit there were. Attempting to cripple. For the last 30 months the doj and the fbi and the irs have work to not only protect the criminal actions of the biden family, to continue persecuting President Trump. Some describe this as a two tier system. What it really is, its a system deliberately and systematically prosecuting individuals within trump orbit due to their hatred for President Trump. Simultaneously, they cover up the crimes of the current president and members of his family well issuing select indictments against trump. Today we are joined by two whistleblowers. They are in the doj they are stepping forward now between the 22 elections, they have the House Majority its a subpoena power. Theres gavels in hand. We now present crucial evidence into the investigation. The American People could be as plain as day, the corruption, bribery and we are here to do the job. The doj and the refused to do they have failed to fulfill their duties. Theyre International Bribery scream which is 1 Million Dollar payout. I want to thank you both for coming forward. I cant imagine how difficult the skin on you and your family. I think the best used of my time is to help simplify the complex schemes for the American People. Help do the job that doj and iris in the fbi they refused to do. We talk about china. We talk about romania. Ukraine, it all seems complicated. This was born in 2014 in ukraine and then replicated in other countries. Ukraine is the proof of concept. This is a scheme. A foreign client has a problem. The Vice President travels to the country the Vice President leverages u. S. Influence to force a favorable outcome for the client well and the biden family earns the fee and that is the team and that is the scheme so lets just start with ukraine so i can show you of timelines burisma has a problem they cant get the stop listed the prosecutor general is investigating corruption and they cant get the outcome they want to new york and so what did they do they hire hunter biden. Mr. Ziegler, can i direct you to page nine. Hunter biden received millions of dollars . That would be accurate. Thank you. The American People, i want to point out briefly that hunter biden has qualifications are in business in general. He does have the big guy. November 2nd 2015,. An email to hunter. Burisma executive is demanding highlevel officials. This was in an email obtained from Hunter Bidens laptop. Hunter biden confirms. Vice President Biden is coming december 7th through ninth biden has officially visited uae u. S. Tax dollars for to withhold he lied about this during the campaign. He specifically said it wasnt true. Sir enough if you have any questions about whether he buys them, generate 23rd of 2018 he brags about it years later. Ladies and gentlemen, the American People, thats the scheme. That is the proof of concept. They replicated it again and again because they never thought biden would be president. No one did he is our president. And because of his, actions because of him selling policy decisions to adversaries abroad for personal gain, he is vulnerable. He is vulnerable. Its a vulnerable cause of it. We are not here to prosecute hunter biden. We care about our countrys National Security and whether the president can compromise. Thats why we are here. Thats why were here. With that, i yield back. The chair recognizes carlee from virginia. Thank you, mister chairman, thank you both for being here today. My friend from South Carolina says he was going to simplify for the American People. I think he succeeded. So simple it has to be unrecognizable. If youre going to talk about ukraine and burisma, lets remember that president not joe biden, not was impeached. Over a phone call. The president of ukraine wanting to get dirt on this very individual with this very company. And withheld military equipment as we now know including javelin symbols. Its very useful and antitech warfare to get it. Quite correctly. My friends on the other side of the aisle, they voted against that. They had no problems with that kind of interference. It directly affected National Security. Mr. Shipley and mr. Ziegler, you both have decided about the fact that youve been subject to criticism and ridicule and public disclosure. Menacing comments because you come forward. Is that correct . Medicine . Comments menacing comments. Menacing comments. Yes, sir. Youtube, mr. Ziegler. Whoever does that, i think he would both agree. Its doing a disservice to the country into you individually. You are simply doing your dirty as you see the light. Fair enough . Yes. Mr. Ziegler . I am doing my duty. Can you imagine how the District Attorney in Fulton County georgia must feel. The District Attorney in manhattan must feel . Or the special counsel of the department of justice must feel. When the very subject of an indictment or intending indictment takes to public rally and ridicules them by name, disparages them right name, characterizes them by name, putting them and the families at the same riskier experiencing. If its wrong for these anonymous people to criticize you it must certainly be wrong the former president of the United States would demonize people you can disagree if their judgment. Its not right to disparage their character. Whats so ironic about this hearing, again, not one mansion on the other side of the aisle. That malign behavior by the very subject of the indictment. Speaking of interference, the American People know President Trump pressured the Justice Department which we are talking about here today. When that be wrong or cemented that . When he handpicked william barr he is reducing the sentencing for roger stone and glossed over Robert Mueller as eight for eight saying it exonerated the president when in fact Robert Mueller specifically said no it did not. And listed ten specific items of the obstruction of justice he recommended be pursued and pointed out unless we misunderstand the part according to doj guidelines. He said in his report, when he left office he might want to pursue it. In the New York Times the former President Trump explicitly told the chief of staff john kelly that they, quote, ought to investigate and get the iris on for civil service, and considers the political enemy. Explicit testimony from his own chief of staff. Again, absolute from the other side of the aisle. Including from the ways and Means Committee, its so concerning about any thing with any interference of any political entity or individual over the pristine work at the department of justice and the iris. An agency, i might, add another piece of irony in this area, it has been disparaged as the hobnob boots on the neck of the taxpayer for so long by the majority. And then resources by the majority as we speak. They had 24 billion dollars in the agreement out of the 80 billion weve provided to give you more resources to do your job. I yield back. The gentleman yields back, we are going to have two more questions at the request of the witnesses at every 90 minute mark. We will take a ten minute bathroom resists. We will recognize the next two questions and then go to that right now. The chair recognizes representative turner from ohio for five minutes. The gentlemen thank you for being here, i appreciate your courage i, appreciate your dedication of the truth and your obligation. Surprisingly, my question about your testimony is to why were here and were working on a shift to talk about what you are here for. Im going to different spots of your testimony. I dont think youll have to do it wrong, i will do it for the record, if i ask you a record and you have to refer to it and take a pause please let me know. I think we will be able to follow along. Mr. Ziegler, you stated on page 17 of your transcript that you started this investigation in november of 2018 after reviewing bank reports related to a case that you are working on a social media company. Those bank reports have been identified as paying prostitutes relating to a potential prostitution ring. Also included in the bank reports with evidence that hunter biden was living lavishly in his bank account. When you make this statement did you actually review these statements . You got it from someone else. Its relating to you and what they said. You have looked at the documents. That is correct. I looked at. That mr. Shabbily, you testified on page 57 concerning the 2014 tax report. Hunter biden did this, he told burisma to send that income to rosemont. When the money came back to him, he booked it as alone. You then go on to testify that it should have been taxable as soon as it became income from burisma to hunter. Whatever he did with that after that was a scheme to evade taxes for that year. It did not focus alone. So biden is treating it differently. Did you look actually at those records . Is this your viewing of them to create this testimony . That was the evidence. Especially for ziegler who is the expert. Yes, i saw that evidence. Mr. Ziegler you also looked at these bank records respect to the 2014 tax payment from burisma. Yes. Mr. Shabbily he went on to say this is like textbook, its basic training nominee stuff, and all of these defenses it was alone. You have got to have a premise. You have got to have defined interest and none of them were included. How did biden claim this was alone . He got it from them but doesnt claimants alone. Theres no promissory note. Theres no interest or repayment. Is that correct . That is correct. They actually booked it. They booked it as a deduction. Meaning it would have been a payment to him. It wouldve been deductible to hear them. Income to him in the papal with tax. It wasnt just the Bank Documents that you looked at you also had the opportunity to look at a member from sure when. Eric sherman was actually hunter biden and mr. Shabbily, in your testimony, you included exhibit four, it was a memo from hunters accountant saying youre going to oh tax. Youve got the attacks but this position is income. There should have been income tax paid off. Correction to, that i did not provide this document. It was provided by the committee. We have it in the testimony. Both for you i think the taxable amount, would have been about 125,000 on the 400, 000, is that correct . That is correct. Mr. Ziegler . That is correct. You had no evidence in all the records that you looked at that those taxes were forever paid. They were not. They were not paid by hunter biden. Since the statute of limitations were allowed to run, mr. , chapel you go on to state that in order for them to pay it you have to pay voluntarily, the government doesnt have a way to compel him to pay, they have allowed the limitations. Its not a criminal. You have to pay the tax. That is correct. Its criminal. It has expired for that tax year. So, he has its pocket 125,000 of money that should a god to taxes. The state of ohio, you have an average family owning about 62, 000, thats like two full households of tax income that he got to keep in his pocket. I wonder, he could pay that today, right . Voluntarily . Oh, yes. Yes, he could. Perhaps mister president who supposed to be in charge of taxes coming to our nation and who so frequently tells us that the American People arent paying enough taxes, they might want to wonder and turn to her son say hunter biden, why dont you pay your taxes for 2014 . They just testified. Its 125,000. You have to cut the check. Thank you, mister chairman. The chair recognizes mr. Norton from washington, d. C. Thank, you mister chairman. Mr. Shabbily and mr. Ziegler, thank you for being here today. We are obviously going to talk a lot in this hearing about the investigation into Hunter Bidens taxes. So, i think its important that we set the scene. We make it clear what type of investigation we are talking about. Mr. Ziegler, what year did you open the hunter biden investigation . That was 2018. November of 20. 18 2018. Thank you, the department of justice and announced a plea agreement with hunter biden last month. I estimate that you send four or five years on that would be correct. Mr. Ziegler, in your testimony before the ways and Means Committee you said that when your time working on the investigation ended, it was quote 99 back then quote and that you had worked to complete 95 of the investigation and quote. Given this testimony, mr. Ziegler, in the years that you sent on the investigation, you saw it nearly to completion. That reference was to tax cases. The tax investigation as far as all the work we had done regarding that. 99 of that has been done to that date. Mr. Shabbily, on page 12 of your tan skipped the transcript from your interview, the ways and Means Committee, you describe the aires team in this investigation as consisting of him quoting 12 elite agents who were based on their experience and performance in the area of complex high dollar International Tax investigations and quote. Mr. Chavez, how serious are the investigations undertaken by these elite agents . Im not sure i understand how to answer your question. We do they have to be very serious to be undertaken by these elite agents . I think i can answer this. We have to treat each taxpayer the same. Thats the most important part. We are the agents with the International Tax group that come in there. We have the expertise to work these complex financial investigations. Whether they are more serious, we have to treat each person in taxpayer the same. And thats what i try to do in my job with. I was referring to the high complex tax return. Mr. Ziegler you called hunter biden investigations are quote complex criminal tax investigation and quote and i understand that it was an inter Agency Effort involving the iris, the fbi, the u. S. Attorneys office in delaware and dojs tax division in d. C. Mr. Ziegler, is it fair to say that this sort of Inter Agency Team is only assembled for serious and complex investigations . I can only speak to what happened in this particular investigation. The reason why under agencies might join, that just depends on the crimes were investigating. We are the only agency in the federal government that is allowed to investigate attacks crimes. And thats why you have to have, if you have a tax crime case you have to have the iris on that case. You have lots of other agencies as well. It seems like Hunter Bidens taxes were in a great deal of scrutiny and rigorous review by large teams of experts investigating who had experience working complex cases. This investigation occurred over several years and spanned multiple agencies and divisions and had an expert team. They devoted to it to this investigation and made it abundantly clear that this investigation was taken seriously by both the irs and doj while our witnesses here today may disagree with the u. S. Attorneys decision. It was undeniable that hunter biden was in a thorough and rigorous investigation i thank you and i yield to the Ranking Member. That lady yields back we will take a ten minute recess at which point we will reconvene and approximately ten minutes. Members of the house Oversight Committee taking a short break here. The testimony from two irs whistleblowers in the Ongoing Investigation into the biden family specifically witnesses are testifying on politicization and misconduct of doj and irs. With respect to the president son under hunter biden. Wait for testimony to continue. We will look back remarks from earlier in the day. Live coverage of the house Oversight Committee here on cspan 3. They republican majority the house Oversight Committee has made historically fast progress with our investigation into the biden family and their peddling schemes it is just six months we have been saying thousands of pages of financial records and this includes bank records for biden Family Associates and suspicious activity reports generated by the Biden Associates high dollar business transactions what these records reveal is astonishing the bidens created over 69 cuts and they were mostly created when joe biden was Vice President the bank records so far the show the biden family and their Business Associates and their companies received over 10 million from foreign nationals and related companies. A lot of this money was when joe biden was Vice President. Despite creating Many Companies that after the Vice President took office, they used associate companies to receive millions of dollars from Foreign Companies in china the ukraine and romania. The Foreign Countries sent money to Business Associates. The bidens then received payments overtime to various Different Bank accounts with these transactions were the use deliberately to conceal. It was the force of funds and total amounts no normal business operates like this. What were the biden selling with nothing but influence and access to the biden network this. Is an influence peddling school we we whether joe biden is compromised by these and of our National Security is threatened. During our investigation, they became aware of the whistleblower disclosures that the fbi had an unclassified record that details the extortion and bribery involving then brace President Biden and an executive. This record was by with something that the fbi used over a decade it memorializes with betty paid joe biden 5 million in exchange for certain actions. The burisma executive and human source said that he didnt pay the, quote, big guy, directly but then he used so many accounts. It would take ten years to unravel. That tells an awful lot with. Using multiple Bank Accounts we and total amount of the money will. Today we have two whistleblowers who risked their careers to come forward and provided testimony. Thank you all for being here today. And it was not an easy decision. The doj and the fbi and the investigation of the hunter biden confirms that theres nothing normal about the biden familys Business Activity the white house and democrats would believe that they had five years of conspiracy theories. We have five. And new evidence continues to be the first families corruption. The bidens have put themselves first and americans last. We will continue to follow the money trial and provide the accountability that americans demand and reserve. With, that i yield to the ways and Means Committee. Thank you, the ways and Means Committee is charged with ensuring that the tax code is enforced fairly clearly the president only believes in making taxpayers pay their fair share if they dont share his last name. These two courageous whistleblowers provided my committee with devastating testimony. Showing that government is not treating all taxpayers equally. Doj and the irs will the president son nearing a criminal investigation into the taxes and these individuals today are credible. Nearly 15 hours of interviews with both republican and democrats. I took part in the interviews with ziegler. Here is what we learned from the interviewing the irs recommended multiple, the irs recommended multiple felony charges against hunter biden for tax years 2014 we. From Foreign Countries. It was based in china, romania, and ukraine. And that is the only amount discovered despite the roadblocks and obstruction their investigations face. The department of justice engaged in a campaign to delay and evolves and deny that investigation. They delayed investigators for years leading to the expiration of the statute of limitation for many of the crimes involved. They have key investigative details to bidens attorney and even the president s Transition Team. They denied investigators the ability to authenticate evidence question witnesses and bring charges. This led to hunter biden and his sweetheart agreement. It was five years after the investigation started. Mere days before my committee voted to public really release this testimony. What americans in my district or when they receive the same treatment we, after raising their concerns these whistleblowers were discouraged and demoralized and turn to congress as a last resource. They bravely reported wrongdoing to us. And what has their outlines including their employers done. They responded with a Vicious Smear Campaign to discredit these whistleblowers and discourage others from coming forward. They may have coordinated with the white house on this effort. This is a disgrace i urge any irs employees watching today, if you know of misconduct please come to the ways and Means Committee so we can hold accountable those who are responsible. Let me be clear, there will be zero tolerance for any retaliation against whistleblowers like doj and the irs. The American People expect answers about whether the federal government is treating all taxpayers equally or if the wealthy and politically collected get special treatment. Our committees are working together theyre working tirelessly to do so. Make sure it doesnt happen again. They should not have to accept two tiers of justice in this country. One of your last name is biden, one for everybody else i want to thank the whistleblowers for coming forth publicly and for their testimony. I yield to mr. Jordan. The question, is who are you going to . Believe april 26 in front of the United States senate, the attorney general said david weiss is in charge of the investigation october 7th and a meeting with what gary shabbily david white said i am not deciding officials. Who you going to believe . On february 20, eight i wrote the attorney general asking him why there is no special counsel in the hunter biden investigation. He did not respond. Its unusual in and of itself. The chair recognizes mr. Palmer for five minutes. I thank the chairman. I want to welcome the whistleblowers and thank you for your courage. More than, that for your fidelity to your duty to faithfully enforce the laws of the United States. Mr. Shabbily, the statute of limitations has run out on a number of possible felony charges for 2014 in 2015. Is that correct . Thats correct. There are huge liabilities for that texture. Correct . They were taxi at liabilities, yes. You didnt have access to all the evidence related to those sources of income, did you . Based on the limitations placed on us by delawares attorneys office, its very likely. The Oversight Committee recently reviewed the classified documents from the fbi. Its a form used by the fbi to memorialize information related to confidential human sources. Left the 10 23. It was created in june of 2020. This is not a tip sheet. Its not a hotline. Its not a suggestion box. Its a legitimate source used by the fbi mr. Shabbily did you ever review the june 20 20th forums with the information about hunter biden and President Biden . No, i did not. I reviews the form. And there is startling allegations and it. What would you have done if presented with this piece of evidence regarding this potential stream of income. It has constituted an area of investigation. So, since ive never seen the document, its been reported. I can say that there were investigative steps that involve President Biden that were not allowed to be taken. Information like this would have been really helpful to have from investigators by investigators when we received pushback. When we were asked to take names out of document requests and search warrants. It wouldve been nice to have information that showed why. It helped prove why those names need to be in them. I think its material to your investigation. All information led to it. Liberal later to the wanting of investigations. Was there other evidence in this investigation that you are denied access to . Yes, there was. Do you want to elaborate . One piece was the hunter biden laptop. There is a memorandum that documented it contemporaneously. It was a testimony that states that what the United States attorney leslie wolf told us on that today. I think it was september 3rd for 2020. Thats that they had information from the laptop that they were not providing to the investigators. Can i add something . So, when it came to questions, as a part of the, investigation reinterviewed a lot of people. As part of the investigation, you want to ask questions. It should be an open environments. Theres information in that. There was an environment when we are interviewing witnesses. You are free to ask questions questions that could lead to the president ial campaign. This is after the campaign is over. Questions like that was restricted. It was limited. It appears to me the Public Domain sources another piece of relevant information, i think its important the committee understands that you are trying to do due diligence. They were denied evidence relevant to your investigation. I think the 10 23 form is an important piece mister chairman, i want to ask mr. Ziegler, is that correct . From the variants of the investigation, yes. There are two different scenarios from where d. C. Is involved. When we first started initiating investigation, and then when he was referred to prosecution. Which time period. As far as venue for the tax case goes the menu for this case we saw that when we did our analysis that benny was either in california or in d. C. I guess, at the time, in the beginning it was d. C. That was where we wanted to see our investigation was indeed. You are told that attorneys were in charge of this, was that your understanding . Okay, fast forward to march 2022. I had a phone call with prosecutors assigned to the case. They said that our prosecution report went to low level people at the d. C. U. S. Attorneys office. Those low level people reviewed, said hey, were gonna give you this. Heres what were gonna do to help you work and finish the case here in d. C. A few days later, i get another phone call. Its from the same assigned attorney. They tell me that now that the u. S. Attorney has reviewed it. Not only is it a no, it and know you should not work this investigation in the district of columbia. Mister chairman, it appears to me that mr. Ziegler was misled. And that his instincts were right, it shouldve been moved to the district of columbia. Again, i want to thank you for your courage and your fidelity to the law. I yield back. The chair recognizes mr. Khanna from california, for five minutes. Thank you mister chairman, thank you mr. Chapely for being here. I understand that your duty to have the strict enforcement of tax law, is it true that you have often disagreed with charging decisions before . I agree with charging decisions. Im saying, is it that youve all true that youve often disagreed that your recommendations have often been disregarded before when it comes to charging decisions, is that true . I dont think disregard is accurate representation. People in your own irs have disagreed with your decisions often before, is that accurate . Thats not accurate. Is it not true that the facts council, in the criminal department, has disagreed often with your decisions in the past . Criminal tax attorneys, yes. As i stated how often have they disagreed in your opinion, with your recommendation decisions . Very often. Can you give us a percentage of how often you said we ought to charge someone and they said no, that may not be a good idea . Yeah, i would say, i mean, just ball parking a vast majority of what we do. Thats why theyre advisory. Do you have respect for them . Theyre advisory. Do you have respect for them . Most prosecutors its a simple question, sir. The respect of colleagues or not . Often their opinion is not respected by me. So, do you have more respect for them or mr. White . I think because you have a history of wanting to charge people. And then people pushing back. Youre by your own testimony, under oath, you said 90 of the time, people are pushing back on what you want to do. I am not questioning, you want to stick for the law, it reminds me of les mis, the famous person wanted to get the person who had the sandwich. All this time, people kept pushing back on you. You said, theyre not very well respected. Do you respect mr. White . The criminal tax attorneys, ive never had a case that they declined, that they did not concur with we didnt ignore their request and move forward. If its 90 , they have disagreed with, correct . Byron testimony. Yeah, yes i established that. Let me ask you on the media, given testimony under oath, you have never spoken to the Washington Post, and reported on this matter, correct . Thats correct. Do you know, have you spoken to any Media Outlets on this matter . I have spoken after the house ways and Means Committee. Before that, have you spoken to any media, journalists on this matter . Absolutely not. Do you know of any colleague of yours, that the irs wouldve spoken to any journalists on this matter . Absolutely not. Do you know any investigation into the leaks from this matter . So, the october 6th leak, i was the person who referred it to our Inspector General. Do you know any of your colleagues were under on the ninth of 2020, around the day of action. Do you know if youre any of your colleagues were sorry, if i could just do you know if i have any of your colleagues were under investigation for that leak . No. I know of no colleague uninvestigated that leak. Youve never spoken any media person i testimony about this matter . Not only my testimony under oath today, ive provided affidavits to the house ways and Means Committee saying the same, have said it to our Inspector Generals office as well. I appreciate. That i dont want to make a final point on this, one, i think with mr. Chairman, do you mind if i can the gentleman answer the question you asked . I dont want my time to be. Getting him to the time, i want to minute to wrap up. You have a minute. Okay. Heres the point, i think this whole thing, the Ranking Member raskin summarized it, i dont disrespect, you sir. I think of a tough view on what you think the law should be. This is why we have a prosecutor toilsome, where you dont get to decide, i dont get to decide. We have a whole system. It turns out, often your recommendations on who should be charged differ from some of the other folks. And thats what happened in this case. As your testimony here, you yourself said, you think mr. Weiss should come and explain his decision. You dont question him, and i think on the optics issue, thats what my colleagues have brought up, obviously attorney general barr is gonna be concerned of the optics when you have a donald trump appointed u. S. Attorney, potentially bringing charges against his rival son. Thats a legitimate thing to do. I guess my view here is, were spending hours on a disagreement about whether to charge someone, we have a whole democratic process that does. That you dont get, my final question mr. Shapley, do you think you should get decide who gets charged . Do you think that should be the charging office . Each time you say this is a disagreement, you can say it multiple times, it doesnt make a true. Weve testified under oath here about the prosecutors agreeing with charging felony charges on multiple occasions. Just to say this is a disagreement would be a misrepresentation. My last question though, who do you think gets . It should you have that final decision or prosecutors have the final decision . No, i am a special agent for irs criminal investigation, i do not make those final decisions. On whether to charge or not. Appreciate that. Mister chairman, may i have a second . In terms of a criminal statute. Point of order, mister chairman, we have a new real in the committee, let it happen before. I know if it was to answer, you finished. That him followup. Youre correct. Gentlemans times expired, we recognize miss green for five minutes. Thank you, mister chairman. Before we begin, id would like to let the committee and everyone watching at home that parental discretion is advised. I dont like to remind everyone that on the Oversight Committee, we provide oversight into all parts of federal government. Including their department of justice and their willingness to prosecute and their unwillingness to prosecute. And whether its politically motivated. I would also like to say, when evidence and proof of a crime is presented, no prosecution can be denied. No matter who the person is. To the whistleblowers today, i think both of you for your courage to come to the committee today. Your commitment to truth, i have Great Respect for it. Thank you. I would like to talk with you both about hunter biden and his tax writeoff with his law firm, owasco. I would like to ask mr. Ziegler, when did you start your investigation in your testimony, it was november 2018, is that correct . Yes or no . Yes, thats correct. Thank you. During your testimony with the house ways and Means Committee, you stated that through bank records, you identified hunter biden paying prostitutes related to a potential prostitution ring, is that correct . Yes or no . Yes, thats correct. Ive also reviewed that those same bank reports, commonly referred to as suspicious activity reports, and im very troubled by them. We read thousands of them in the treasury. This particular excerpt from the report called talks about human trafficking. And in regards to hunter biden and owasco, and payment he was making. Whats even more troubling to me is that the department of justice has brought no charges against hunter biden that will vindicate the rights of these women who are clearly victims under the law. I would like to talk about your prior testimony, you stated that the Prosecutorial Team was investigating violations of the men act, is that correct, mr. Ziegler . That is correct. Regarding the mann act, if a person is transported across state lines for sexual activity, such as prostitution, that could be a violation of a federal law, is that correct . I recently looked at the federal law regarding the man act, i believe that that is correct. I would refer you to the doj manual. Thank you. I would like to present this to the committee. This is showing hunter biden paying for a victim united flight from l. A. To dulles. This was, i believe, a violation of the man act. Hunter biden this is proof that he bought the ticket. He bought it for this woman right here. He flew her from los angeles to washington on june 14th. Flew her back to los angeles, california, on june 15th of 2018. I would like to point out that if he was purchasing her a plane ticket for sex and traveling across state lines, do you believe that to be a violation of the mann act, mr. Ziegler . I can talk specifically about whats in my transcript, regarding the mann act, i know we were compiling the information together. Yes, mr. Ziegler, as the law states, by the code of the law it states that traveling, paying summer to go across state lines is prostitution, its a violation of the mann act. Let me move on to one more second here, when hunter biden paid for this woman to do this with him, to travel across state lines from california to washington, d. C. , on june 15th, this is a violation of the mann act, this is prostitution. Let me continue. Did hunter biden also use this company owasco d. C. To pay prostitutes . Hold on one second. Well give you the additional time back. Regarding the mann act violations, regarding the statute, be return to the house ways and Means Committee, they can decide to vote to turn them over to you. Regarding the mann act. Thank, you mr. Ziegler. I talking about hunter biden, using his company pc to pay prostitutes, this is also spur suspicious activity reports, showing that victim one, the woman that was paid for prostitution, that traveled from california to washington, d. C. , paid for by hunter biden, this is an excerpt from a stars report that we read in the treasury. I think you all have looked at these two. Showing that victim one was supposedly an employee of owasco. I would like to point out, this is not really what most paralegals do. For law firms. And its very serious that hunter biden was paying this woman, through his law firm, and then writing it off as business tax exemptions. Most people writeoff things for their taxes through their businesses like a meal, or say, office supplies. Can you confirm for me that hunter biden had written off payments for prostitutes through his law firm, owasco . I appreciate the question given by the statute, and limited in my testimony today. I respectfully would need to turn those records over to the house ways and Means Committee. Okay, thank you mister ziegler, one last question. You referred to one of the assistants as west coast assistant. I believe this is the west coast assistant. Could you agree with that . I can tell you that there were deductions for, what we believe to be, escorts. And that 10,000 Dollar Golf Club membership, yes, that was not a golf club membership. That was for a six club payment. That was for a sex club payment. Payment such as this through from hunter biden to prostitutes. Also, mr. Shapley mister chairman, or one minute 63 seconds. Over as long as we get equal time. I will let miss green wrap up, in five seconds. Ill give additional time. Thank, you mister chairman. Mr. Shapley, you use your investigation into hunter biden code named horsemen, which opened in november of 2018. It was an offshoot of an investigation the irs was conducting into a foreign based amateur online pornography platform. This is evidence. Chairman of hunter biden making sex tapes. Excuse me, this is my time. Making pornography. Should we be displaying this, mister chairman . In the committee . The gentleladys time has expired. With two have minutes over. She can have it if you want to yield some to miss ocasiocortez, will make it right. You are next to have minutes. Chair recognize that mr. Debate. Point of order. Mister chairman . My understanding is that this committee was provided this activity reports on the condition that it not publicize them. For the reason that they are not actually, even allegations, much less evidence of anything. My colleague from georgia has now just revealed it publicly. That is a good point, however, that suspicious activity report has been public for years. Thats a superstitious activity report was on the internet long before i became chairman of this committee. That particularly a suspicious activity report is already been publicized. Thank you for that clarification. She said as part of the thousands that you reviewed, i appreciate a clarification. Public and able, we all review. Treasury click reclaim time. We recognized for five minutes, and will go over time, well work with you. Thank you very much, mister chair. Im going to claim my five minutes and yield the two and a half additional minutes which have given me to my colleague from new york, miss ocasiocortez. Im glad somebody brought up this in the words suspicious activity, because thats just whats taking place in this view this room. Make no mistake about it. I want to congratulate my colleagues from across the aisle for gathering us here today, almost distracting us from the biggest investigation that has gone on right now in our country and in our nations history, involving the former president. And the front runner for the republican nomination. Who is currently facing a 37 count indictment this week. And maybe two weeks from now, more, and maybe to four weeks then, more. But were spending our time talking about hunter biden, someone whos already pleaded guilty to not filing his taxes, having a gun charge, and now i hear also, paying for prostitution. Lets just remember, there was a case in new york not too long ago where our former president also got into trouble regarding payments and regarding a stripper. And was found guilty of a violation in civil court. There seems to be a lot of hemming and hawing about special treatment, special treatments, when the president , just a couple of days ago, try to delay his federal documents trial and requested the u. S. District judge, aileen cannon, who he appointed, to somehow or another consider the fact that he was a candidate, and therefore, maybe, maybe, maybe his trial should be put off, until after the election. That seems to be like special treatment, if ive ever heard of it before. But im grateful that my colleague on the other side of the aisle is taking at these tax evasion very seriously. I would welcome also hearing on the former president s history of tax evasion . And how long it took to see his tax returns covering ten years, and what was the outcome of that decision. You know, the Trump Organization was hit with one point 6 million in manhattan state court, being convicted of attacks scheme. Lets be real when we talk about this. Its not just hunter biden. As long as were seeing hunter biden, we need to get everything else. Again, hunter biden i do not file taxes in two years, yes, i have a gun charge. All take responsibility for. I love the fact that we are so earned so much love with the irs. In fact, Speaker Mccarthy said, when he was elected on the 15th vote, that the first bill that he would repeal funding for was the bill that would provide for 87,000 additional irs employees. My, dont we love the irs . Were just gonna cut their budget. In fact, theres a number of this committee who on their own website said they are proud to have voted to strip away the plan to empower the irs with additional funding. So, im gonna get back to those two words again about keeping it real. I think we really have to do that. I just think, mr. Shapley, two quick things. Is hunter biden in any way, in your knowledge, not hunter, but did any of his children receive money, yes or no . I think agent ziegler would be. Either one, yes or no. Congressman, yet thank you for the question, im limited by the testimony by the statute. Okay, we can turn owner over any of the records that relate to the Adult Children. Yes. Wed like to see those. Really, i would. Were gonna hear soon about tax evasion. Weve got people at the highest levels of government doing it, we dont want to talk about that at all. No, heres what goals me. I dont like these attacks on the department of justice, the fbi, the irs. As if they are somehow antiu. S. Agencies. Those agencies keep this democracy in check, keep them in float. They provide the checks, they provide the balances. And we could be, quite frankly, using our time to better talk about crime in america thats affecting everybody. Attacks on womens health. The economy. Budgetary issues. Public education. Housing. Relief for seniors ages babble to pay for subscription drugs. Poverty mental health, to name a few. Yet, were doing this all over again for the hunter biden show, for someone who has pleaded guilty and has taken responsibility for not filing taxes for two years. This is ludicrous. Beat me up, scotty. Theres no intelligent life down here. None. I yield. Chairman, time is expired. Chair now recognizes mr. Armstrong from north dakota. If i could plead guilty to two years of tax evasion when i was accused of sex, i might consider that to be a pretty good plea deal. And lets talk about what this is and what it supposed to be. Mr. Shapley, i think were gonna testify that criminal tax attorneys are advisory only, and often doj prosecutors disagree with the irs tax attorneys, is that an accurate statement . Yes, its an accurate statement. I think this is important, everyone continues to go out there after you to look into people who are involved in this. You went to work for the irs in 2008 . 2009, correct. 2009. Mr. Ziegler, 2000 . Ten 2010. You started under president obama. Continue your career under President Trump, and are continuing your career under President Biden, is that accurate . Yes. In your entire careers, including today, how many times have you talked about who appointed a u. S. Attorney . I havent. In the course of any investigation, have you talked about whether it was a democratic appointee or a republican appointee . I have not, no. Mr. Ziegler . I have not. Its not supposed to matter, right . Thats why you have u. S. Attorney to also go across administrations and work through republican administrations, democratic administrations, and thats the part of your Investigative Team. That Investigative Team recommended that you charge hunter biden for every tax year, since 2014 till 2019, and felonies for at least 2014 and 2018. And this included income in a scheme to invade taxes from a partnership with a convicted felon. Is that accurate . Yes, thats accurate. And a total amount of taxes not paid over that period are not paid timely, was over one point 5 million. And that did not include interest in penalties or other that are typically involved in this case, correct . Yes, thats correct. And mr. Ziegler, your testimony identifies to criminal violations, which is attempt to avoid taxes and filing false tax returns. They both carry sixyear statute of limitations. That is correct. Mr. Shapley, you stated the purpose of the exclusion of the 2014 at 2015 tax years sanitized the most substantial criminal conduct and concealed material fact. Can you expound on that a little bit . Yes, that statement by the may ways and Means Committee was in reference to the income from pariss mom that was not reported. Therefore, if it wasnt reported, it would be completely left of the official record. As far as your wear, thats not a part of any plea deal, correct . I cant speak to the plea deal, i dont believe. So i want to talk about something that is a little unique to this investigation. I want to take you back to december 7th and eighth of 2020. You are planning, your Investigative Team, this is the whole team, east coast, all across the country, numerous interviews being, are going to be conducted. Hunter biden was gonna be the subject of one of those in l. A. , correct . Thats correct. This is unique, because joe biden has won the election, were walking into this, there are some serious, secret service protect an, i am sure assuming after contact the secret service, youre not walking up with armed fe fbi agents to a secret service protect the . Yes, we had a plan on how to approach hunter biden that day. Briefly explain that plan . So, the fbi asked us to say and were ironed with assigned with interviewing hunter biden that day. The day previous, we went to the l. A. Fbi field office and ask them to special agent in charge to contact the secret service, special agent in charge for the l. A. Field office. Eight a. M. On the morning, december 8th and tell them to agents were going to approach hunter biden to put as part of an official investigation, and the night before, all that changed. All of that change because fbi headquarters and secret Service Headquarters coordinated, and that information had gotten out to everybody the night before. We can talk about whether to highly political investigation all of those sorts of things, theres nothing a group of people that were made aware of that the night before. Wasnt there . Yes, thats correct. That would be the Transition Team . Thats correct. The Transition Team is a political operation, set up to help the president elect, that cabinet employees, worked on inauguration, do all of those things. Is that your understanding . Generally. They have any special investigative powers i dont know about . Not that i would know of. And your entire history and working history with the irs, did you ever work with a Transition Team of residence to help set up an interview with the subject of a criminal investigation . I have not. Final question, do you get to interview hunter biden . We did not interview him. Thank, you i yield back. Gentleman yields back. The chair now recognizes mr. Ocasiocortez for five minutes plus. Two and half minutes that we went over. Thank you, very much mister chairman. Good afternoon mr. Shapley and mr. Ziegler, i want to thank you both for coming before us today. I know this is not easy. And it is very important that both of you are respected during the course of this hearing. Mr. Ziegler, in your deposition to the ways and Means Committee, i believe that i believe you said that you began this investigation in 2018, correct . That is correct. So, some of the events that you discussed in your deposition took place two, three, four years ago, correct . Or less general years . That would be correct. In your deposition in front of the ways and Means Committee, and in your testimony before today, you have relayed your memory of events that i have heard over the course of a nearly fiveyear investigation. And mr. Ziegler, when you testify before the ways and Means Committee, you also testified that you were told that it was then attorney general, william barr, who made the decision to merge with the d. C. And delaware hunter biden investigations, correct . I did testify to that, correct. A few weeks after that testimony, your attorney wrote in a letter, to congress, i quote, mr. Zieglers confidence he was told by the supervisor that the merging of the cases was at the direction of an official at the department of justice. However, on further reflection, mr. Ziegler cannot definitively state that is then supervisors said that the department of justice official directed a merger of the cases was attorney general barr, correct . That is correct, i can tell you that i actually refreshed my memory from looking at that email. There was an email that i found for my supervisor at that time, that stated what had happened. I can turn that over to the house ways and Means Committee at some point. And in that updated email, didnt include attorney general barr or not . I cant speak to the content of that email. No problem. I think in light of the correction, and truly in good faith, these things happen all the time, right . The recollection of these investigations require an extraordinary amount of detail, and the charges of what is being brought forward today are extremely serious. Which require a high threshold of evidence. Including investigations of depositions. But i hope you agree, even the best memory can be fallible at times. And that is the widely understood reality in our Justice System. Mr. Shapley, from your testimony today, i think you would agree that its important that criminal investigations be conducted fairly and free from political influence. Thats why were here today, correct . Yes, correct. As you stated and was discussed with mr. And others, often disagreements, it seems as though it would be some of the transcribed interviews we read, it says you have about 90 of the time, there is an irs reviewing attorney disagree with the charging decisions the agents in the group, correct . That was part of this testimony, not all of it. In some of your comments, you also noted that youve made reference to special counsel in this situation. But i believe, there might be a reference to here, the question of a special attorney, not a special counsel, correct . So, if you speak about october 7th 2022 email that i documented contemporaneously on that day, thats why i documented it on that day. So nine months later, im not trying to recall the specific words. So, its a special Counsel Authority, thats what he said, that day. Thats what a Senior Executive irs corroborated when he responded to my emails. I do think that depiction is important. In this letter to chairman jordan, the issue at hand seems to be a special attorney. Not a special counsel. Which are two distinct, different legal authorities. There also maybe some confusion, i think, with respect to that as well. Which brings me to the point of political influence. Where there actually is a set of bread crumbs, isnt a set of tweets and letters sent from former President Trump to several chairs, to the chair of the House Judiciary Committee that we see here, in fact, according to New York Times article, which id like to present to the record today, President Trumps attorney wrote to the Judiciary Committee chairman, urging him to investigate what he called, quote, a rogue local District Attorney. And after that they convened a grand jury that ultimately indicted donald trump. Chairman dorman did not comply with that letter. Shortly after President Trumps attorneys sent that letter to the committee, which is highly unusual, a very highly unusual act. In fact, after that, on march 20th, chairman jordan, together with the committee on house administration, chairman brian steele, as well as the chairman of this committee, wrote to District Attorney bragg, and then demanded a sweeping series of documents, including communications between the d. A. s office and the department of justice, also highly unusual. In fact, on the truth social account later on, donald trump claimed that the u. S. Attorney investigating hunter biden, a u. S. Attorney by the way that donald trump appointed, was, quote, a coward. And then in that he then urged that maybe the presiding judge will have the courage and insight to break up this, quote, pool of crime. Curiously, just a few days after this tweet, the chairman of the ways and Means Committee, jason smith, sent a letter to u. S. Attorney david weiss, and attorney general Merrick Garland. Who are implicated in this hearing. Ask explicitly to place the whistleblower testimony from the committees depositions, into the court record, which were addressed during the chairmans Opening Statements. Before Hunter Bidens plea hearing at the end of the month. As you can see, right in your statement, chairman smith explicitly said, and i quote, answering that information into the formal record. Additionally, those two chairman on this hearing today. Highly unusual. With the gentlelady yield . One moment. When we talk about political influence, we are not here today, unfortunately, because of the fact that brought us here. We are here today because donald trump is exerting an influence campaign. In congress, when he is no longer president of the United States. And addition to that, if we want to talk about charges that have been dismissed, and if we do want to follow the evidence, perhaps we should discuss ivanka trumps investigation in charge with felony fraud, after Donald Trumps personal attorney provided political contributions to the local dea, those charges were dismissed, and ultimately, we saw that dea vance, President Trumps attorney provided over 50,000 in political contributions after the case was dismissed. Can we talk about political contributions, i would hope that were following the evidence that we are willing, that this committee, is gonna go there, that they be willing to open an investigation into the political charges against ivanka trump. And, by the way, if the gentlelady from georgia wanted to follow evidence, we should also take a look at hypothetically a case where sex trafficking charges against a 17 year old girl, potentially gentleladys times expired. Thank, you i yield back. The general chairman recognizes mr. Gosar of arizona, for five minutes. Thank, you mister chairman. Chairman comer and his team have done a great job of uncovering millions of dollars sent to hunter biden from foreign sources located in places like china, romania, and the ukraine. Pretty obvious that Hunter Bidens only avenue for making money is the influence of his father. The only thing missing is direct evidence that joe biden knew and participated in these bribery schemes. That is where you brave men have done it. Your investigative efforts have the potential to uncover direct evidence in this and in some cases it did. Very hindered by doing their jobs by the department of justice did today. As mr. Shapley put it, quote, at every stage citizens remain to benefit the subject of this investigation. And quote. As hunter biden in my extension, joe biden. These men are not political people. Theyre hardworking agents, the last thing you want to do is im not gonna stick to, ill stick to confirming the most egregious examples of prosecutorial misconduct in the doj. Leave it up to the American People to draw their own conclusions. Mr. Shapley, under u. S. Stacks law, taxes owed on all income received from Legal Service sources, right . Yes. Hypothetically, if a person subject to u. S. Taxes receives 1 Million Dollars for serving oil company, those taxes on that 1 million, and what is 38 . Correct . Through u. S. Taxpayers, yes. To declare the receipt of such income violate u. S. Tax bill, correct . Yes, it would. To paying the tax own in a timely violates the tax, code correct . Yes, it does. And the tax code has criminal and Civil Penalties for violations, correct . That is correct. In a hypothetically, a person received 1 Million Dollar payment, and it conveys 10 of that amount to another person, that person making that payment may have to pay a gift tax on that amount, correct . If they face the gift, yes. Conversely, the person receiving the money has to pay income tax on them, as well correct. On the gift portion, they would have to report the gift on their tax returns. I dont believe the taxes. The failure to do that, is subject to Civil Penalties, correct . Yes. Filing false tax returns is against the law, yes. Is there definite confirmation that all the evidence on the hunter biden laptop has been reviewed by federal agents and prosecutors . The prosecutor stated that evidence was withheld for the investigators, we dont know how much. The doj prosecutors allow your team to access . Could you repeat the question . The doj prosecutors allow your team to access the laptop . Doj prosecutors. When the laptop comes into the computer investigative specialist that reviewed the laptop, they create reports and pull stuff from it. Looking at anything on the laptop, right . We saw some, but not all. Okay. Is it normal for the doj to deny this type of investigators . No, thats the first time ive experience being limited to evidence. Did sustain attorney wolf corroborate the data on the left of . That she collaborated out on a laptop . I wouldnt know. Okay. I guess my question comes back, and the reason i went down this rabbit hole, is it your conclusion that you are interfered with, and that those that interfered with you our are as guilty as those creating the problem . Or the accessories to a crime . Is what im getting to . I would agree theyre investigative steps they were deathly obstructed by doj, that ive never seen in my 14 years. And honestly, it just makes no sense. We wouldnt want to collect all the evidence available. I cant opine on your second part of your question. Gotcha. Mr. Ziegler, the video did the doj prosecutors deny requests to look into the same, quote, im sitting here with my father, texting hunter biden. That they allow you to obtain the location intermission where that text was sent from . I know it was an issue that came up, whether we can get a location data, i know that that was a conversation that i wouldve had with the assigned prosecutors. I recall them saying to me, how do we know that hes there . How do we know that thats true . The statement thats being made there. We will get a location data. So, a part of my normal investigation, thats what i would do. What i can tell you, i know i didnt do it. I dont know if the fbi ever ended up doing, it kind of lake erie lets wait, i dont need to think i need to think about. I guess was the proper response. Gotcha. My time is up, i yield back. Gentlemans times expired. Chaired a recognizes miss brown. Miss brown for five minutes. Thank you, mister chairman. The American People have lost track of your supposed investigation of President Biden. Or is about investigation of his son, who does not and has never worked at the white house. Or another family member. We cant even follow which investigation were discussing today, is at the fbi, the irs, or something new . I know the American People are confused, because were all confused what were doing here. Nothing, this majority has claimed about the president or his family has merit. No wonder the folks back home are tuning out of this confused mess. My colleagues on the other side of the aisle have shredded all their credibility in this committee. They simply grasp at straws that do not exist. In this congress so far, weve held more hearings on gas stoves and gun violence. And culture wars than Kitchen Table issues. So, lets talk about the real two tiered Justice System. The one in which big corporations pollute the air we breathe, and the big banks called meltdowns with their negligence and not one person is held criminally liable. Theyre certainly not called by the majority to sit before this committee. Or, mister chairman, what if we talked about the other unspoken two tiered Justice System in this country. The one where people of color are subject to a deliberately harsher system at every turn, from policing to prison, temporal. In this country, a black person is five times more likely to be stopped without due cars then a white person. And black defendants are 25 more likely to be held pretrial. Meanwhile, the twice indicted former president is out campaigning around the country, and didnt even have to post bail. Yet, hundreds of thousands of americans sit behind bars, waiting for their day in court. These are the types of lived experiences we should be addressing in this Oversight Committee. This is the real two tiered Justice System. And its the Justice System democrats are trying to fix after four years of donald trump. Congressional republicans, however, are working to make these unequality is worse through their efforts to defund the irs and other democratic priorities. Included in the Inflation Reduction Act. Since my colleagues claim to want stricter irs enforcement, you would think we would at least agree on giving the irs its proper funding. Let me conclude by asking a simple question, mr. Shapley, yes or no, do you know the rate at which black taxpayers are audited as compared to taxpayers who are not black . No, i dont know. The answer is black taxpayers are audited at 2. 9 to 4. 7 times the rate of non black taxpayers. Another question for you, sir, yes or no, will this hearing help alleviate the Racial Disparity in the race of the irs audits . No, with that, i yield my time. I will yield the balance of my time to the Ranking Member. Thank you kindly, for your excellent questioning and stay with their. The chairman of the jewish Judiciary Committee, when she was here, advice on us to believe that the u. S. Attorney for delaware had changed his tune or changed his story. When you look at the letters he actually sent, he didnt change his tune at all. Expanded the answer to be perfectly clear in his june 7th letter he said ive been granted ultima thule over this matter, including responsibility for deciding where weather and went to file charges for making decisions necessary to preserve the integrity of the prosecution. In the federal laws for the federal prosecution in apartment a regulations. In other words, its up to him. For the u. S. Attorney. Then, in june 30th, the letter of the chairman on the second in my june 7th letter. Understated, quote i have been ultimately including responsibility for deciding when to file charges et cetera. I stand by what i wrote. And wish to expand on what this means. This is the heart of what were doing here today. As the u. S. Attorney for the district of delaware, my charging authority is geographically limited to my home district. Tom interdepartmental practices. The context of u. S. Attorneys office for the District Attorney says that whether or not they want to part on the case. If not, i might request a special attorney satisfy the attorney generals pursuant to 28 5 15. Here i say its necessary. I would be granted section authority in the district of columbia, the central issue to california, or any other district or charges could be brought in this matter. It is the difference, as ocasiocortez was saying, between special counsel and special attorney which could explain the in any event that the u. S. Attorney for delaware had one of the authority that they had with whatever he wanted and she is the witness for that. I yield back to the gentleman. Id like to be clear that he was assured of that authority. And he said he was referred. He is limited within delaware. Youre not a lawyer, right . You dont work in the department of justice. Hes explaining what the rules are. You timers experience. Thank, you mister chairman. Mr. Sigal, thank you for being here today. Blowing the whistle against the man as well connected as biden is truly courageous, a truly courageous act. I hope that all of my colleagues can appreciate that as well. Mr. Shabbily, i would like to start with the simple question. When did you start your career as an investigator with the irs . July of 2009. Thank you. What year were you promoted to supervisory role . 2018. It is 14 years of service with the irs, five of those years in a Senior Leadership position, correct . That is correct. Did you ever in your 14 years cnn vessel geisha be handled in the same manner as the one we are here to discuss today . The one in Hunter Bidens taxes . I have not. When were you made supervisor to the investigation of mr. Biden Operation Fund . January of 2020. By your estimate, at that time, when did you initially believe that the evidence was sufficient to request physical search warrants in california, arkansas, new york, and washington, d. C. . Special agent ziegler draft the affidavit in april or may. That was when i had that search warrant. Of 2020 . 2020. It was a short time after that you begin to illustrate that career officials at the d. C. Oj were dragging their feet regarding the next steps in the investigation. Is that correct . Yes, that is correct. Two months later in june of 2020, you came to the belief expressing as such in communications with the irs leadership that if normal procedures had been followed, did these search warrants wouldve already been executed. Is that correct . Yes. Was that within the typical timeframe for the self imposed investigative pause did the doj historically has to implement in cases preceding elections . The official department of justice Public Integrity stand down came on september 4th of 2020. After the initial step were inexplicably denied, prosecutors continued to decline to advance on promising leads. They were, for example, many problematic Text Messages and emails on the infamous laptop in august of 2020. When were you informed that the doj wouldnt allow physical search warrants on hunter biden . I dont recall the exact date. And i think its in the confines of our testimony. We can provide that information to the house Means Committee, a clarification of that. That can clarify that issue. My understanding is that it was october of 2020, but we appreciate your clarification. The assistant u. S. Secretary wolfs decision not to execute a search warrant on hunter biden, does that strike you as a typical, mr. Shabbily . Generally, in any other investigation, we have probable cause. We believe theres evidence in that location they could prove or violation. We would execute that search warrant. It was an unusual election. Yes, congresswoman. Is it fair to conclude that this pattern involves a typical and sometimes bullet bewildering actions taken by doj and the District Attorneys office, happening over the course of the entire investigation and not just one or two occurrences . That is correct. It was the pattern that really drove me to one of the things that drove me to come forward about that deviation from a normal investigative process. In your opinion, did these odd, a typical, and bewildering actions bolstered where have the investigation . I believe they hurt the investigation. I would say theres something rotten in the state of delaware. Whats happened here with hunter biden would not have happened to other americans, and its totally unfair. I think that is very important that we get to the bottom of this investigation. And find out who has been obstructing this sense of justice, the American People demand justice. This committee demands justice, along with the other committees involved. I thank you for this hearing. Thank you to our witnesses. I would like to get right into some basic vetting questions. Unfortunately, our colleagues across the aisle failed to do so with some of the previous witnesses that they called. Mr. Ziegler and shabbily, i am hoping that these are very simple, straightforward questions. Id like to ask that you answered them with a yes or no answer. Mr. Shabbily, are you now, or have you ever acted in the unregistered Foreign Agent for the chinese government, or for any other government . No. Mr. Ziegler, are you now, or have ever acted as an unregistered or a registered Foreign Agent . No. Have you ever participated in illegal arms trafficking . I have not. And mr. Ziegler, how about yourself . I have not. Mr. Shabbily, have you ever been indicted of a crime, lied to investigators well under oath, or run from the law . I have not. Mr. , ziegler same question to you. Have you ever been indicted, lied to investigators, or run from the law . I have not. Thank you for answering those questions. Obviously to as these clarifying questions, given the majority of track record not to mention their own president ial candidate, it seems necessary to clarify for our american folks there listening today. Lets get into the kinds of crimes that the majority claims they are interested in investigating here in the Oversight Committee, and namely political influence, abuse of power, and other alleged crimes via a president and their relations. Again, because time is limited, i like to ask our witnesses a two billion dollar investment from the saudi government after working for his father in law. Is that correct . Thank you for the question. Im here to talk about the hunter biden investigation. It is a widely known fact, and i appreciate your response. Mr. Ziegler, youre aware that while serving as a Senior Adviser to her father, ivanka trump had a number of trademarks fasttracked by the chinese government. Correct . Again, i have to stick to the confines of my transcript. I appreciate that. Finally, i want to remind everybody that the person who appointed u. S. Attorney general david weese to handle the matter that were here to discuss today was donald trump. This would be the same president , donald trump, the man twice impeached for abuses of power, and of course, recently indicted for 37 counts of criminal activities. One would think that in the Oversight Committee, we would want to investigate such blatant acts of criminal activity, and i truly could not agree more with evidence, did there should not be a two tiered system of justice for those that are powerful, and those that are wealthy, and those that are not. Its actually with this hearing is about here today. Its clear that this is another attempt by the majority to turn this committee into another donation to the Trump Campaign. Just follow us on an earlier attempt this past month to undermine the fbi with a controversial market, which thankfully did not occur. The very same day that donald trump was indicted under the 37 counts. In fact, if you look across the aisle, there are 13 members who have already endorsed donald trump. Here we are trying to distract the American People once more, even though it was a political appointee, appointed by donald trump, who was at the helm of this effort when the issues that we are discussing occurred. And yet we are using the committees resources to advance this agenda. Its important that the American People actually understand that the real criminal, the actual threat to our Democratic Institutions is donald trump. The man found legally liable for sexual abuse. The man who refused to return classified documents to the government. The man who was inciting an insurrection that led to the deaths of five people, and threaten the lives of people in this very room, and who threatens the very foundation of our democracy i. Find it hard to believe that the members who witnessed the insurrection who, witnessed these criminal indictments continue, to stand here today with donald trump and prop him up using committee resources, and i urge my colleagues to take a hard look at the mirror and really respect what the oath of office means. With that. I yield back. The chair reckons the from louisiana. Were going to be moving fast year. Let me make a statement. Lets just clarify for american. Republicans are only interested in Hunter Bidens deceptions regarding his irs confirmed receipt of 17 point 3 million from shady sources in ukraine and romania and china, while he had nothing to sell. He had no product, no service, no skill. All he had to sell was corrupted access to his father, the big guy. Guy how dare congressman higgins call the president of the United States i would call the big guy, december 30th 2020. This investigative chapman. And a 12 hour long meeting with the u. S. Attorneys office of delaware, shabbily shares an irs planned interview, associate rob walker, objecting to this plan to the dismay of those in the room. She said we dont want to ask about the big guy, stated that she did not want to ask about that. December 8th, 2020. Investigators shabbily investigators ziegler, meeting with a special agent stating that they would accept service with documents request and declined request for the interview. The irs investigator where only it will do in the that day, investigations revealed to the press, december 9th 20, 20, he the wolf gets involved again. Interrupts investigations. December 14th, 2020. Assistant u. S. Attorney wolf gets off biden kelso by an irs plan, it reached the threshold of probable cause to execute a search warrant on a storage unit in northern virginia. U. S. Attorney wolf calls Hunter Bidens attorney and alert him to the pending search warrants being executed. You stated, investigator shabbily, that at every stage during your investigation, decisions were made that benefited the subject of the investigation. Who was the subject of the investigation good, sir . Hunter biden. Thank you very much i think a. Clarified for america why we were interested in hunter biden. He sold access to his father the big, guy. You americans out there, theyve got a compromise, a president in the white house. You should certainly be concerned. Ah mr. Ziegler, how did the irs investigation regarding hunter biden begin . Tell us briefly. It was a review of bank records regarding another investigation that i was working. It is ancillary to another criminal investigation. Is that correct, sir . You are a criminal investigator is that correct. , sir . Correct. Not civil . That is correct. Thank you very much. Investigators happily, in the september 3rd, 2020 meeting with the Prosecution Team for the hunter biden case, assistant u. S. Attorney leslie wolf told your team that there was more than enough probable cause for the physical search warrant of the guesthouse at then former Vice President delaware resident where, hunter biden had stayed. Did u. S. Attorney leslie wolf confirm your investigative efforts that you had sufficient probable cause for search . She did. Thank you very much. As you told congress, assistant u. S. Attorney wolf also said that the question was whether the juice was worth the squeeze. Thats a quote. Optics were driving factors in the decision on whether to execute a search warrant. Optics . Have you ever run into that, mr. Shepley . I have not. Have youve missed, or ziegler . I have not. Then why do you think the department of justice might be concerned about optics in a search of the president s sons residence during the course of a criminal investigation . Mr. Shabbily . Because the sensitivity is involved in that search warrant. It would its pretty clear. Theres another search warrant. Ill touch on in my remaining section ah. Gentlemen, your courage for coming forward. And you gave him with an oath you. Upheld that oath. Yes i have. Is it your Core Principles that have driven you to reveal the corruption that you have witnessed in your criminal investigation coming before Congress Today . It was. Thank you. Mister chairman a yield,. Very good. The chair now recognizes mr. Gomez for five minutes. I garcia. Lets first zero in on the bottom line. What we have our two irs investigators who clearly have worked very hard on the hunter biden investigation. Thank you both for being here today. You both gave recommendations to prosecutors based on your work, which you described today. Donald trump handpicked prosecutor, and then made recommendations to charge hunter. He acted independently, and he himself has confirmed this. You did your job making recommendations. And then the prosecutor did his job. You dont have to agree with this conclusion, but its the bottom line of what we have today after this hearing. Todays hearing is like most of the majoritys investigations hearings. A lot of allegations. Zero proof, no receipts, but apparently at a certain point, the American People need some actual evidence. Actual evidence. We have seen absolutely none. Lets go back and review what has gone over the course of the last seven months for this Smear Campaign against the white house. First, the committee is clearly obsessed with hunter biden. Massively obsessed with him. Keep in mind, theres been no evidence of any wrongdoing or transaction of the person that is actually in government. Joe biden. A lot about hunter, not a lot about joe biden. Hunter biden, i want to remind the majority, hes actually not the president of the United States. I want to point out that no fight and family members hold government positions of any kind. This is of course in stark contrast to the trump crime family. The majority conveniently glazes over the trump familys foreign dealings. The trump family, who of course were actually appointed to white house senior jobs. To ivankas chinese to the qatari real estate bailout, and two billion and saudi private equity money. Where is that investigation . They were actually in the investigation. Chris christie said it best. Of course, the former governor, this is his quote. The grift from the family is breathtaking. Its breathtaking. Jared kushner and Ivanka Kushner walk out of the white house, and months later get two billion from the saudis. Continue. You think its become some kind of investing genius, or is it because he was sitting next to the president of the United States for four years doing favors for the saudis . These are quotes from a man has known trump and kushners four years. These people were in the white house every day, formerly making policy unlike hunter biden. The biden family tax went nowhere. They tried to create a new storm, a new Conspiracy Theory about the socalled fbi ukraine document. Another fake scandal. This new fake scandal had a lot of hype, a lot of scary headlines from our chairman, from a lot of members of this committee. A lot of us essentially read the document. When you read the document, it is pretty clear that this was all hyped. Just a wild accusation being passed along to the accusation fbi with zero proof of where. Did this come from . Rudy giuliani. Just another Rudy Giuliani tinfoil hat Conspiracy Theory that went nowhere. Giuliani recommended and by the way, who is recommended to be there is no evidence that hunter evident the republican u. S. Attorneys got brady handpicked significant evidence the republicans were so desperate last week to find somebody that could tell them what they wanted to hear ah why is the socalled whistleblower missing . We dont know. Being searched upon after being arrested. Now so desperate to click this narrative, the elected critic. We have questions. Was the chairman or Committee Staff in contact when he was a fugitive . These are the real questions we need to ive never met gala left in my life. All i know is that he was getting money from the same company did the bidens are getting money from. I yield back. Thank you mister chairman. Im also looking for anybody on the committee, or Committee Members and any context is the president sent a chinese spy . What does taking company from the same one i mean . Mister chairman, you are hyping of a chinese spy and arms dealer for a week. Who cares if they had money from the same company . Just to finish up my time. Let me say that its clear to me this majority will stop at nothing to try and impeach President Biden, its phony general, secretary mayorkas, and the list goes on and on. Its just another witch hunt that the majority continues to do week after week. A majority trying to interfere in an ongoing legal proceeding to cause chaos and try to reelect donald trump. Who obviously is pulling this extremist agenda. I yield back. Chair, we recognize mr. Sessions from texas for five seconds thank you very much for taking time listening to it strongly identifying. Both of his chosen to do this as people who have an ethical and moral idea that your service to this country, we want to thank you. Today, weve got examples of the department of justice and irs having not just given special treatment to those who have committed tax evasion and financial fraud with the president s family, but i think theres another point that we would want to make today. That is that i believe taxpayer systems with the agency is tasked with enforcing the laws fairly on regular citizens, is also seeking the chance to shield well connected to the president of the United States from consequences of the illegal behavior and direct opposition to our nations founding principles. We have established that. I think that its pretty clear what you have said today. I have a question for both of you because i believe that today, the hearing goes beyond that. That is that there are strong well protected over 20 302. The whistleblower protection act which affords you and any other person who works in this government the protections from retaliation after making a leap of legally protected disclosure, doing your job, you found like there is something wrong. You said something about it, and you filed for whistleblower status because you believed that something was being held against you. In fact, both of you had made several legally protected disclosures during this time for the record. Is that correct . That is correct. After making the disclosure to the committee, did the irs comply with the statutory required whistleblower protections . How are you treated in this endeavor . I will start. Since i made these protected disclosure, theyre legally protected. The irs chose to retaliate against me in multiple ways. Even, now there is a Major Case Initiative to actually especially with ziegler, starting as well. They are now being put on a backburner , but again, there is that immediate supervisor and two levels above him, hasnt spoken to me since june 1st of 2023. Even im sending them emails and conducting the business on a daily basis. Theyve literally not spoken to me and it really becomes when Senior Leadership cuts of communication and increases the chance of some of the Senior Leadership, weve got no support from them. Mr. Ziegler . I made the disclosures up to the commissioner of the irs. If said what happened. The response that i got a few days later was that i might have broken the law and, dont ever do this again. You emails need to go through leadership. To have that come to me was telling. I cant even put words to it. What i can say is that there are some people in my agency, in my leadership that have been a person that i can go to for support, but the vast majority is just that impact on the person. Its awful. Thats why the law exists. I want both of you to know as the subcommittee for this committee, government reform and oversight, government accountability, i will be coming to the irs, and i will be going to other agencies specifically about their retaliation under the law within their agencies. That we should take as a committee, a whole committee and subcommittee, very seriously. This could be a number of matters that are taking place where people have chilling impact against the laws of the United States of america. Gentlemen, ive been taking notes, i want to thank you for being here today. Mister chairman, thank, you i yield back my time. The gentleman yields back. Chair recognize mr. Foster from florida. Thank, you mister chairman, and thank you for your Service Working at the irs. Its very important work. Lets get right into it. Mr. Shabbily, you are blowing the whistle today because you feel like the department of justice provided preferential treatment to hunter biden, is that correct . You believe that hunter biden received that preferential treatment because his father is the democratic president , joe biden, is that correct . I cannot conclude why he is receiving the preferential treatment, but that is one conclusion you can come to you. Its evident in your deposition that you believe that. , where you suggest that there is no conspiracies i play, a two tiered Justice System which privileges democrats over republicans. Thats what theyre using your story for, and using your work, making this argument its cooping the language of the decadeslong Civil Rights Movement for black lives in black freedom, movement nemours a two tiered Justice System, its not about democrats versus republicans. This language has the real history. Its got a real history of emmett till. It has a real history with breonna taylor. The central part fly, a young man who is just killed in Central Florida we could go. Its got a real history with four black boys from Central Florida who were falsely accused of kidnapping and sexually assaulting a white woman when they pulled over to help her when the car was broken. The fourth boy who is not pictured here was not apprehended initially. He was actually shot to death by police. A 100 mob wanted to get their hands on the remaining three black boys included, and so they took it out on the predominantly black town, shooting residents, looting, setting fires to their homes. Charles greenly, he was sentenced to prison for life. He was 16 years old. Just a quick trigger warning here for black death and trauma, but its an important story to tell when we talk about the two tiered Justice System. On the way back from the courthouse, sheriff took it upon himself to shoot the two remaining individuals, Walter Irvine and samuel shepard. Walter irvin actually ended up living because when he was shot, he played dead. The other one was shot and killed, samuel shepard. They were both handcuffed, as you can see in the photo, and was shot to death. They all died in either prison or on parole as can be convicted criminals. In 2021, 70 years later, a judge exonerated them. The trial was considered a fraud. In closing, there is a two tiered Justice System. It does exist. It is not what my republican colleagues want to say it is using your story for. That is not republicans versus democrats. Its black, brown, and poor people versus everyone else. I will not accept one republican politicians like to appropriate the language of the movement for black lives and civil rights that have been a political agenda to defend donald trump. This is the two Justice System. This is the two to Justice System. We have to continue to fight for a world where this doesnt happen. This case about hunter biden is a case closed. I will close with the question for the chairman. Considering the quote, fosters, abuses and misrepresentations of sensitive information, when were done with this madeup investigation, are you expected to the reason i ask is because its in line with the logic and actions of the republican party. Thank you and i yield back. Thank you very kindly. Mr. Ziegler, you referred to an fbi supervisor special agent who went with you to try and interview hunter biden. Is that somebody that you respect . That was not me. That wouldve been my supervisor. You went with this essay, is that somebody that you respect . Yes i respect the fbi faa. Because he came and did an interview with us and said that he testified in his decade of experience through the delaware u. S. Attorneys office, the never you the or the to allow any Political Considerations to influence the prosecutorial decisions. Do you accept his judgment or do you disagree with his judgment about that . Yes, the fbi as aar respect, and its a matter of timing. He retired in june of 2022. At that time, i hadnt even overcome the burden that it took me to say this has been political, its been politicized. It was not until october 7th, 2022. And so the fbi essay a, he came to his conclusions and wasnt there for that. Can i mention something . I respect very mature service, and i respect very much your testimony today. I think that it is completely within the realm of prosecutorial discretion and subjective differences of opinion that people have. Those arrested have been in prosecuting understand that happens all the time with prosecutors and investigators. The chair recognizes the gentleman from arizona, mr. Bags for five minutes. Thank you, good to have you here. We appreciate it, appreciate your courage. Your willingness to testify. Mr. Shipley, im going to go to pages 18 to 20 of your testimony. Mr. Ziegler, im going to go about page one of four to 105 of yards to start with. While you are going, there i want to ask this question. Weve heard a lot about this 2014 to 2015, 2016 tax note. Trumps if hurdle out about trump. In 2014, 15, and 16, those text years, donald trump wasnt elected. Who is the Vice President of the United States . You know . Joe biden was the president of the United States. Thats right. When the statute of limitation ran on those 14 and 15 years, who was the president of the United States . When the stat sheet expired . There was President Biden. And in the statements and i want to go over it. Mr. Shipley, why did you want to interview rob walker . I think special agent ziegler would be better to answer that question. On page 18 of your testimony, mr. Shipley. Can you repeat the question . A rephrase the question. On the day of action you are planning on interviewing 12 people. One of them was robbed of her, a business associate of hunter biden. In particular, you want to talk about i think the quote is, the big guy. Who did you inferred the big guy might be . All i can do is speak to the evidence. Would i could say is that i think i know what youre referring to. We are preparing for that interview, and we are referencing that email, from what i understand that is to be his dad, President Biden. I just want to ask mr. Shipley a similar question. They interjected, and immediate transcript now. She said she did not want to ask about the big day. They were not want to ask the questions about that in quotes. Would you take the ad to be when she refers to dad . Biden. Even by her response, she is referring that joe biden might be involved in Hunter Bidens transactions. Then you get to the fbi agent, and you gets detail about his you get that detail about what hes saying, the transcript of the fbi agent asks mr. Walker. You definitely get the feeling that was orchestrated by hunter biden, having an appearance by his dad at the meeting to kind of bolster your chance to make that deal work out. Walker answered, sure, did you hear hunter biden sitting at that meeting with his dad, when he was still in office . Walker answered yes. Thats the quote that you gave to him in your transcript. The question there is, what did you infer . Then you said the fbi agent inexplicably seizes that line of questioning. I want to note the fbi agent the business transactions for what he is still in office. I cant go beyond the testimony. Ill just leave it there. Mr. Ziegler, on page 104 of yours, you mentioned that mr. Biden, hunter biden attempted to on his return for hotel rooms used by his father, joe biden. Tell us about that. On his tax return, he read today hotel room for his dad, joe biden. We actually got the envoys from the hotel that shows the dads name on it. For that to be a valid business deduction, he would have to be doing that business with hunter biden. Is that not true . Typically the part of the process would be to interview that person, to find out what might have happened. Why did you go to that hotel room. Based on statements that he made in his book, you can correlate what was kind of going on around that time. How does this become a valid business detection if joe bidens just they are on vacation . Generally speaking, to be a valid business deduction it would have to be a sort of Business Activity being conducted at that time. The whatsapp where he says hes sitting, my dads sitting next to me, for one of, five thats where you talk about it, page 105 of your transcript. I think the question is, how would you be able to determine whether those rooms, whether he was actually next to hunter biden. How djibouti able to determine that . Typically, in that situation, you want to get location data. Contemporaneous data that would show where that thank you so much. From pennsylvania . Republicans have been invoking this term two tiered system of justice a lot recently. I want to talk about the real two tiered Justice System is, they are over criminalized and over incarcerated. On june 20th, chairman comer claimed in the Committee Press release, quote, the department of justice revealing a two tiered system of justice. As you see, or have seen from the also using this phrase in connection would like to address the way that my republican colleagues have attempted to coopt a phrase with the two just assistant to make it seem like trump and his cronies are now the victims here, when the reality is that the term two tiered system of justice is meant to refer to the very real system that exist in the United States, in which black and brown folks, not powerful former president s and their political allies. The real two tiered system of justice is one in which in 2021, according to the the imprisonment rate 11. 6 the real two teenage the imprisonment rate for american males, 5. 1 times the rate for white males. The two tubes Justice System is one in which according to the may 2018 evidence blackmun comprise about 13 of the population, meanwhile 35 of those are incarcerated. One in three black men born today can expect to be incarcerated, meanwhile one in six latino men are the two to just assist him is one in which 1 million traffic stops found that black drivers were 20 more likely to be stopped than white drivers. My republican colleagues seem to think that using criminal law as a weapon, or a Political Tool is objectionable only when directed against somebody that should be out of reach for the criminal system. Somebody too rich, too powerful, or two white to be charged. Lets face it. That same system has been used as a weapon and Political Tool against black people since the emancipation proclamation. These Racial Disparities the two tier system on race. Believing that by people were inferior, that would create to justify the enslavement of five people which is now involved to include the belief that black people were prone to criminality. During the decades of lynching that followed inflation, and white people descended the torture and murder of black people as necessary to protect property. Families, a way of life nixons war on crime evolved from his war on drugs. And in both cases, it was by people they were targeted and suffered under those policies. Theres a reason black crack cocaine, which carries the stereotype of by people was at one point punished far more harshly than powdered cocaine. 100 and went, meaning the somebody convicted in federal court of possessing crack cocaine will receive the same sentence as somebody who possess 100 times more powder cocaine. I want to say that the, extent sing overwhelmingly impacting people of color. Most importantly, black people, who make up less than 11 of the population in pennsylvania. More than 65 of those serving life without parole sentences, and 58 of those serving non life sentences of 20 years or longer. How many times have our elected officials ran on a promise of a tough on crime approach . Even now, the party of law and order, in the same breath charging you to not be prosecuted. Dont get it twisted. Republican efforts to for the two to justice, truly the victims whether we say it out loud or not, we dont know who those people are. I yield the thank you for the very eloquent statement. You might be too young for this. When there is this horrific assault, gang in central park. Donald trump ran ads in the New York Times saying that the central park suspect should be given the death penalty. Of course, they turned out to be completely innocent of the offense. I think that is just to reinforce your point that theres a history of profound racism in the criminal Justice System and rhetoric around it. Theres something very disappointing about the colleagues coopting in prosecuting the critique of your system as to cheered on behalf of donald trump. I yield back to you thank you mister chairman for holding in 2020, including hunter biden, if they only got one here. As rob walker. Friend of the biden family. He sent millions of dollars to the biden originating in romania and china. President biden said his family didnt receive money from china but it, wasnt true, mr. Shapely, according to testimony on page 18 december, third 2020, did you have a long meeting with the Prosecution Team and the u. S. Attorneys office to delaware . Its great december 30. 2020,. Is it true the u. S. Attorney weiss was in and out of that meeting that is true . During the. Meeting did, you share your plant did you share your plane to interview Hunter Bidens associate rob walker . All of the interview lines were sent across. You wanted to question walker but the millet said that was included in the interview align. U. S. Attorney leslie wolf said that she didnt want to ask questions about that meeting joe biden, is that correct. . A thats correct. Assistant u. S. Attorney general wolf was you, felt, conceding the bigots joe biden . I think thats accurate. I dont want to conclude which he was thinking. He did have an interview with rob walker at arkansas correct, i . Did not but agents , did. Did rob what could tell you that the President Biden hit ever showed up to a meeting with his Business Associates you . He told us that he hadnt showed up at that meeting can you elaborate. On the i . Can a least to whats in the transcript and witness described since were cfc executives was people on the cfc were meeting at a four seasons subjects father president. Biden, showed up at that meeting President Biden was. Theyre physically thats with the witness said . Yes mr. Xi, great maybe im going back here a little. , bit further but earlier today you wanted to elaborate. And one of your questions, you are cut off by one of the democratic congressman. Is there anything you want to say the you are not able to. Say i appreciate that . I wanted to say the one thing which was mentioned regarding. The retired fbi supervisory special agent ive actually reached out to some of my colleagues that i worked with this investigation, and ask them was there anything and misstated in the chant shift they said no from, their best understanding of reading it i want to be clear on that they have read my transcripts they referenced . The day. Did. , food, they have had any issues with i set up by transcript thank you mr. Shapely anything else i wanted to speak briefly about our criminal. Tax internees and, . Irish investigations they are only. Advisory i cant recall an instance where they. Ive not concurred with any of my action and within the group and it. We didnt send it forward anyway. Through what the Senior Leadership approval is the issue is the manner in which it became a non. Concur the c t attorney that took more than 50 days to review all of the evidence. She concurred with all of the charges in that. Prosecution report and when she sent it forward a panel of five lawyers at the, criminal tax, attorneys they concurred with the, he was all of the charges that were recommended it then went to the Senior Leadership of the council. The top said that you need the, changes for the non concur even Something Like that could happen in. Practice i contacted the line attorney. We did know this would be a non concur. They told us they didnt always been a non concur. Basically the options for the entire event which occurred at the senior level with the panel in green the law, and recommended to. Concurred those charges. Lie to us and provide that false information for it being a nonconcur the entire time, and especially for ziegler they had some, communication with a line, you know that they are saying that its always been a non concur she. Confirmed, she said what no . That was the issue with the its something that i wanted to add to the congressman back there. Just one other thing with regard to what happened in central park years ago, this characterization of what happened there is, im sure very hurtful and harmful for the central park jogger. Theres more to that story. Thank you. The request of witnesses, we are going to take two more questions, and then we will have another ten minute recess. I will just recognize mr. Costar, and then mr. Donald. Right now, the chair recognizes texas from five minutes. Its clear from this hearing that democrats are pro accountability, equal treatment under the law, and are paying your taxes. In the hunter biden case, we have heard the trump u. S. Attorney took the extensive work of the irs investigation and got the most severe penalty that he thought was possible. He was held accountable. There are so many millionaires and billionaires, big corporations that arent ever held accountable for tax evasion. In fact, they are shielded by this gop majority. Republicans arent interested in that kind of accountability. Instead, theyre trying their hardest to embarrass the president and prevent our government from operating as it should. If republicans were truly interested in holding the powerful accountable, we will be Holding Hearings on making sure that the irs has the resources to investigate every billionaire and corporation the cheats on their taxes. Instead, the first bill that i voted on, the first bill brought forward by this republican majority was to slash funding dedicated to the irs in order to chase down billionaire tax cheats. That wouldve brought us more revenue, chasing down taxes that wouldve brought ultimately more revenue to the United States and reduce our deficit, improved programs for the American People. A 2021 Treasury Department paper found the wealthiest 1 might owe more than 160 billion in uncollected taxes according to the near times, quote, tax compliant rates for a high end story, our high. Tax compliance rates are high for low and middle income workers who have their taxes deducted automatically for their paycheck. The rich are able to use accounting loopholes to shield their Tax Liability. Id like to reiterate. Low and middle income americans have high Tax Compliance rates. They pay their taxes. Its the very wealthiest and biggest corporations that refused to pay their fair share unrig the system here in their favor. Mister chairman, i am interested in whether you could commit in short Order Holding a hearing about holding billionaires and big corporations accountable for evading their taxes. I think this could be a bipartisan hearing, it could result in seduction for deficit, and if we have interest in holding folks accountable on tax evasion, i think we should be looking at the biggest fish we could across the board. Starting here today. And we are having a hearing about accountability. What i want to know is why it is folks who voted for cutting billions of dollars in order to let folks off the hook. I would be interested. If we could hold a hearing on the fact that they have had thousands of employees, including those with sophisticated skills. It used to be that 41,000 audits happened a year for millionaires. There was ten years ago. In the fiscal year 2020, they are as only 111,000 millionaires returned. Only about 7100 of those returns audited by revenue agents for the most highly qualified auditors. I want to know, mister chairman, can we have a hearing . And its something we could all get behind. I have a hearing about billionaires and big corporations at large scale. Eventually getting away with the latest reports. Were talking about 160 billion dollars in uncollected tax. I would like to see if there could be interest from anyone on the other side of the aisle. Any interest . Really, ive got time. Mr. Sessions, that would be great. I think id be a good hearing for us to have. We want everybody to follow the law. I agree. With that, i yield back my time to the Ranking Member. The gentleman from new york. Thank you. I want to bring up that october 7th meeting right quick in the minute we have. Youre familiar with an october 6th Washington Post story entitled, federal agents need chargeable tax and gun purchase cases against hunter biden. Is that correct . And then this was the meeting occurring october 7th, the day after. Its important for us to understand in that situation. And similarly information is the october 6th. The chair recognizes mr. Donalds from florida. Thank you, mister chairman. Thank you for being here today. I want to get right to, it weve got a lot to cover. Mr. Ziegler, youre the agent opening up this investigation from a transcript on page 17, what it says is that youre investigating the social media company, and through the process of that investigation, you found attached biden was paying potentially for prostitutes in a potential prostitution ring. Is that correct . That is correct. You also say that in the beginning phases of that investigation reviewing bank reports, there is evidence that he was living lavishly throughout his Corporate Bank account. Is that correct . When i say him, hunter biden. Thats correct. Question for you, and for mr. Shapely. Is it a clear line of potential investigation if somebody is charging a massive Living Expenses to corporate account and not doing that through their own personal accounts, and accounting for that property on the tax income. Is that the basis for criminal investigation . Generally speaking that would be a factor for a criminal investigation. Let me ask you this question. Let me ask you this question really quick. There is reference to the whatsapp text message referring to, and Everybody Knows it, now im sitting here with my dad, tell the chairman to giving my money because were not going to, forget where the bidens, we have all these connections. Yada yada yada. We all remember that text message. Mr. Ziegler, on page 105 of your testimony, page 105, gentlemen. You state that i know we wanted to get location data because i went to the prosecutors witness, they again came back at me with, how do we know that . He could just be lying in claiming that dad, joe biden, the dad was there and that was not there. Were you allowed to get location data dealing with the whatsapp text message . From my memory of it, the notes that were taken, ive never obtained location data regarding that message. Did the a usa in delaware, did she say, wow, look at this text message. Lets figure at the location data and figure out where he was when he sent that message . Was she excited about this as a prosecutor . When i asked about the location data in her response right here, it was her responding with, how do we know that . It was not about figuring that out, how do we know that . She read the text message . If i read it as a prosecutor, im saying wait a minute, that is sitting x to him and he happens to be the now president , then Vice President of the United States . Should we find out where he was when he sent this text message . Im not a prosecutor, im a finance guy. That just seems like common sense to me. And i think with the previous email referenced, pen held by age for the big guy. Now that you have those two things correlating, as a normal process and procedure, you are going to figure out if that information is truthful. I totally agree with you. Thats why i think its the view of members on the committee, and frankly a lot of americans at this point, that there are elements at the department of justice and it didnt want this information out there, who didnt want to go down the line of actually going through the evidence and gathering processes, to see the depth to which this International Paper plate theme was actually happening around joe biden, going through hunter biden, and all of the money that they were occurring. Last question, through your investigation, how much money did you uncover it was heading from ukraine, romania, and china . Hold that one second. Three 17. 3 million. 17th 0. 3 million through the investigation. And you are the guys did investigate criminal tax evasion or an international scale. Is that correct . That is correct. Question for the chairman. Mister chairman, through the investigation of the Oversight Committee, about how much money have we seen come from ukrainian, remain, and china . Over 10 million. Weve got two separate investigations, one done by the Investigative Branch of the irs that is charged with doing this investigations, these are the people you are doing them. And independent investigations by the Oversight Committee, we are coming up with the same amount of money. Give or take a couple of million going through the same places hunter biden and his investigation is slow walk. Were supposed to sit here and think that joe biden knows nothing . I think that for the record, the relevant committees news to have questions for leslie wolf, in delaware, david weiss, the attorney general of delaware, for lisa monaco, the Deputy Attorney general. And for Merrick Garland himself, the attorney general of the United States. If this action is allowed to occur. And investigations are slow walked with the level of detail, these are facts. I yield back. Thank you. We will add, we just got back for ukraine. Well be going through that. At the request of the witnesses, we are going to recess for ten minutes. We will promptly reconvene. I would like to let the committee and everyone watching at home, internal discretion is advised. Id also like to remind everybody that on the Oversight Committee, we provide oversight into all parts of federal government. Including the department of justice and their willingness to prosecute, and their unwillingness to prosecute. Whether it is politically motivated. I would also like to say that when evidence is proof of a crime is presented, no prosecution should be denied, no matter who the person is. To the whistleblowers today, i think both of you for your courage to come to the committee today, and your commitment to truth. Ive got Great Respect for. Thank you. Id like to talk with you both about hunter biden and tax write offs with the law firm. Id like to ask mr. Ziegler, why did you start your investigation in your testimony . November 28 teen, correct . Yes or no . That is correct. A few testimony with the house committee, you stated the bank records, you identified hunter biden was paying prostitutes for a potential prosecution ring, is that correct . Yes or no . Yes. Ive also reviewed the same bank reports commonly referred to as suspicious activity reports. Im very troubled by them. We read thousands of them in the treasury. Is particular excerpt from a report talks about human trafficking, it in regards to hunter biden and payments that he was making. What is even more troubling to me is that the department of justice hadnt brought any charges against hunter biden that would indicate the rights of these women that are clearly victims under the law. Id like to talk about in the prior testimony, you stated the Prosecutorial Team was investigating violations of the act, is that correct . It is correct. Regarding the mann act, is a person is transferred across state lines for activity such as prostitution, that could be a violation of a federal law. Is that correct . I recently looked at the federal law regarding that act. I believe that is correct. They will refer you to the doj manual. Thank you. Id like to present this to the committee. This is showing hunter biden paying for a victim, from l. A. To dallas. I believe its a violation of the act. Its hunter biden. This is his proof that he bought the ticket. He bought it for this woman right here. He flew her from los angeles to washington on june 14th. Flew her back to was a two, is california owned due to 15th of 2018. And i would like to point out that if he was purchasing her a plane ticket for sex and traveling across state lines, do you believe that to be a violation of the act, mr. Ziegler . We can talk specifically to wentz in my transcript regarding the mann act. I know that we were compiling the information together. But mr. Ziegler, as the last dates by the code of law, it states the traveling, paying somebody to go across state lines is prostitution. Its a violation of the mann act. When hunter biden paid for this woman to do this with him, to travel across state lines from california to washington, d. C. , undoing 15th, its a violation of the mann act. This is prostitution. Let me continue. Did hunter biden also used the company to pay prostitutes . Hold on one second. Chairman . We will give you this additional time back. Regarding the men act violations, what we can do is give them by the statute. We can turn this over to the house Means Committee, and then they can decide to vote to turn it over to you regarding the mann act. Thank you, mr. Ziegler. Talking about hunter biden, using that company to pay prostitutes. This is also a suspicious activity report showing the victim one, the woman that was paid for prostitution who traveled from california to washington, d. C. , paid for by hunter biden, this is an excerpt from a report that we went with for the treasury. And showing that victim one was supposedly an employee. I would like to point out that this isnt really what most paralegals do. For law firms. It is very serious the hunter biden was paying this woman through his law firm, and then writing it off as business tactics helped city. Most right off, the taxes, the business is, or, say office supplies. Can you confirm for me that hunter biden had written off payments for prostitutes unlimited in my testimony thank you mr. Ziegler. You referred to one of the exist i believe that this is the west coast assistant. That 10,000 Dollar Golf Club membership, yes, that is not a golf club membership. That was for a sex club payment. That is for a sex club payment. Payments such as this through hunter biden and prosecutes and also, mr. Shepley. Mister chairman, where one minute 53 seconds over. As long as ocasiocortez can get equal time will let the scream wrap up. Five seconds, mr. Shipley, you turn the investigation into hunter biden s code names, which opened in november of 2019. It was an offshoot of an investigation for the irs conducting into a foreign based amateur online this is evidence of hunter biden making excuse, me this is my time. Making pornography. She would be displaying this delay this time its expired, two and a half minutes over. If he wants to yield some with ocasiocortez, will make it right. Two and a half minutes. The chair recognizes point of order, mister chairman . My understanding is that this committee was provided the suspicious activity report on the condition it not be publicized for the reason that they are not actually even allegations, much less evidence of anything. My colleague from georgia has not just yielded publicly. That is a good point. However, that suspicious activity report has been public for years. The suspicious activity report was on the internet long before he became chairman of this committee. That particular suspicious activity board has already been publicized. Thank you for that clarification. She said it was part of the thousand she reviewed. I appreciate the clarification. Public and able, we all reviewed it. The chair recognizes mr. Sununu for five minutes. If you want more time, we will work with you. Thank you very, much mister chair. I want to claim my five minutes and yield the two and a half additional minutes that you have given me to my colleague from new york, miss acosta cortez. Im glad this somebody brought up the word suspicious activity, that is just what is taking place in this room. Make no mistake about it. I want to congratulate my colleagues from across the aisle for gathering us here today, almost distracting us from the biggest investigation going on right now in our country and in or nations history. The front runner for the republican nomination who is currently facing a 37 count indictment this week. Maybe two weeks from now more, and maybe two weeks and then more. We are spending our time talking about hunter biden, somebody who is already pleading guilty to not filing his taxes, having a gun charge, and now i hear also paying for prostitution. Lets remember there is a case in new york not too long ago where our former president also got into trouble regarding payments and regarding a stripper, and was found guilty of a violation in civil court. There seems to be a lot of humming and tying about special treatment, special treatments. The president just a couple of days ago tried to delay his federal document trial and requested the u. S. District judge aileen cannon, whom he appointed, to somehow or another consider the fact that he was a candidate, and therefore maybe, maybe his trial should be put off until after the election. That seems to me like special treatment if i have ever heard of it before. I am grateful that my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are taking at least tax evasion very seriously. I would welcome also hearing on the former president s history of tax evasion, how long it took to see his tax returns covering ten years, what was the outcome of that decision. The trumpet organization, one point 6 million in manhattan state court, being convicted of a tax scheme. Lets be real when we talk about this. Its not just hunter biden. As long as were saying hunter biden, we forget everything else. Again, hunter biden did step forward and say that i didnt file taxes into yard yes, this gun charge, ill take responsibility for it. I love the fact there were so much in love with the irs. In fact, Speaker Mccarthy said when he was elected on the 15th vote, the first field it a bill that would provide for 87,000 additional irs employees. Dont we love the irs . Its going to cut their budget. In fact, theres a member of this committee who on their own website said that they are proud to have voted, stripping away the plan to empower the irs with additional funding. Im going to get back to those two words about keeping it real, and i think that we really have to do that. Two quick things. One, did hunter biden in any way in your knowledge, not hunter, but did any of his children receive money, yes or no . Special agent ziegler. Either one, yes or no . Given by the statute, im limited in the testimony. We can turn over any of the records related to the Adult Children. We would like to see those. Really, i would. Were so concerned about tax evasion, the Oversight Committee will reconvene. Were now back in order. The chair recognizes miss crockett for five minutes. Thank you so much, mister chairman. The problem with going this late in the game is that theres so much we put out there, youre kind of all over the place. Just rock with me for a little bit. First of all, i want to get the elephant out of the room. Just to be clear, you provided deposition testimony and in your deposition, neither one of you ever stated that President Joe Biden interfered with your investigations. Correct . This transcript does not include that. The transcript does not include. Thank you or does it include whether garland interfered with your investigations. Correct . The transcript doesnt say that. The reason i say that is because the insinuation that the committee is trying to make, or at least one side of the committee is trying to make is that for some reason, there was interference. My colleagues continue to make sure that they outline the fact that this investigation started under the Trump Administration. Thats the reason about who appointed who. At the end of the day, we have no evidence that the president or attorney general of the United States interfered. I also want to make sure that we outline some legal principles since we have so many new found prosecutors today. On this committee. Number one, just to be clear, because you investigate something, it does not necessarily mean that there will be a conviction. Correct . That is correct. In fact, in our criminal Justice System, you are cloaked in a presumption of instant innocence. Thats what happens under the constitution. Weve all got a role to play. A role is investigative, correct . Correct. And you have an a usa who is usually the one who is responsible for taking the evidence. They probably have an investigator in their office. Theres usually an investigator in directly relation with their of is that will review any documentation you provide, sit down and talk to the usas office about recommendation, what the targets will look like, things like that. Is that correct . If thats correct, ive never seen that. Let me be clear, there is a level after you get done with your investigation, and with the u. S. Attorneys office to look at the evidence youve provided. They will make these decisions. Correct . All four assigned attorneys agree with recommending impacts, and misdemeanor tax charges. Im not going to dispute that. The difference is that ive done the defense side of this before. As far as unconcerned, it seems like a sweetheart deal. I have never played anybody to every single count of a federal indictment in the first place, unless they only had the one count. Ive always negotiated, and unlike on the state level, i typically do my negotiations a lot of times before they are even indicted. A lot of, times my clients are handing evidence over, all kinds of things. The thing is, those conversations happen ever taken place with an investigator. It always takes place with the u. S. Attorney. The point is, you dont have the ultimate funding authority. The people that did, they decided to do what they decided to do for whatever reason. Correct . In my experience, ive always been a part of that table, talking to the usa, and then talking about the charging decisions. Its not accurate to say that im not the investigators not involved in that. This time, it is a little different for me. Thats why you thought something was wrong. I want to get to Something Else quickly. I want to talk about who we should be prosecuting. We should be looking at the fact that in 2017, trumps first year in office, he also made six point 5 million from china in tax returns. The china payments arent clear for the returns. The payment were a surprise, and trump is an outspoken critic of the five point 8 million that hunter biden made. The difference is, trump was our president when he made this money from china, where is im sure that you would agree with, meet hunter biden has always been a private citizen. We have got a lot of other stuff. In fact, it is clear that trump never paid more than 750 in taxes for, i want to say, a total of two years of his which is absolutely insane. We also know that it shows the trump claimed large cash donations in security, and reports to the irs didnt verify that. They said that while the trumps facts the irs is not agreed to work on them. That is shameful. In addition to that, we heard testimony earlier that talks about how whether or not you execute a search warrant under section 9 13 point 420 of the doj manual, it specifically states that when theres an attorney as a subject of an investigation, prosecutors are expected to lace the lists and effective Law Enforcement. Its kind of what they did for trump when they gave him a number of opportunities to turn over the documents, those National Secrets that he kept in the toilet. He chose not to. Thats why hes facing federal charges down in florida. Finally, i want to make sure that we clear up something about the central park five. I dont think my colleagues from the other side of the aisle understand that not only where they found to be not guilty, they were paid 41 million in the 2014 settlement because their civil rights in that lawsuit were violated in addition to that. We know that one of the central park five now serves on city council. So i ask unanimous consent that i would the lady yield a quick question . When you yielded question . You made the argument the trump received 6 million from china or something, and hunter biden received that. Do you know exactly 100 biden did to receive the money from china . Thats kind of a hard time trying to figure out. I know what trumps businesses. Im not saying its right. Around i know it is businesses are. I dont know what the bidens businesses are. You dont know what its not. You dont know what its not either. You have no idea why or why not they receive that money you have no evidence about it. May i submit this for the record as well . I will say that within this article, it specifically says that the force of a number of trump monies it was unclear. They said they did have businesses there. They said that hes open some Bank Accounts in china. They could not find the source him from china. At was paid to the chair recognizes the chairman from kansas for five minutes. Thank you both for being here today. There is information, lets try to lay this out for the American People. The quick answer, how long have each of you worked for the irs. You first. Is it fair to say that you both had successful careers at the irs . You both been recognized for your achievement there . I believe so. Yes, absolutely. Are you overly equal . I am not, now. When ive made an effort to not be overly, like, i made an effort to be part of it. Do either of you have a burning desire . Have you ever had it to be at a congressional hearing . Are you wanting to be on tv . Are you looking for your 15 minutes the same here. I would prefer not to be. Here i had never imagined that this would happen. Here i am. For the american, people why did you step forward because we knew that the application of justice, we heard all the stories about these crimes that are committed, they are horrible. Without the equal application of, justice i dont understand how we move forward. I dont understand how if i dont do what i can to assure that occurs there are 300 million taxpayers out there, they think this hearing is a big deal because theyre during taxes. They see someone who is. And ziegler . Its a matter of accountability. Its simple, its a matter of accountability. We need to hold those accountable, basically for the last five years, they havent been following proper procedure. We with a part of this, there has to be something built in their. This so this doesnt happen to people. Investigators, lets get the facts out. They received Global Payments for companies linked to ukraine, fought with old through companies. Is that correct . That is correct. 17. 3 million. Mr. Shefali. What is a special agent report, its the reports that recommends prosecution for various charges. Each of us have been choosing. Approximately how many of these over your career have you been a part of . Yes, hundreds, hundreds. Did you complete the special agent report for the hunter biden . Case special agent ziegler offered it. I completed the report. When the special report was in the chain of command, just like you have all been involved, with in the air case hundreds of times did you notice anything out there outside of the normal process that you have grown used to . The changing of lead tax attorneys was inappropriate and out of the norm. No, after that, the leadership quickly trumped the council, they concurred with the charges. We sent it for further approval. Everything he said was correct. Now, mr. Shuffle you recommended felony charges. We all know the answer. Was hunter biden charged with felonies . No he, was not. What role did readily will play in the investigation . She was an assistant United States attorney out of the district of delaware. You met with her and her team during the hunter biden case, correct . Thats correct, in your testimony to ways and means can you explain how leslie wolf who was once again overseeing the case out of delaware saying, during the meeting that she did not want to ask about the big guy she stated she didnt want to ask questions about that. Is that statement accurate . I want to remind you that you are under oath. Is that accurate, your testimony. Can you ask that question one more time. She said, leslie will said in a meeting that she did not want to ask about the big guy and stated she didnt want to ask questions about that. So, theres two fold in that there is the line in the email that says ten held by age for the big guy that was something that came up as a part of ours reviewing what we are going to say during that today, and she immediately said no were not going to ask this and then we essentially had to argue or and then it was ultimately that we didnt know it was unknown. I appreciate that. Mr. Chef, what you stated in public interviews that you guys were stopped from taking investigative steps that could have potentially connect the hunter biden case to President Biden. Is that correct. That is correct. I want to summarize this as quickly as i can we have to credible irs investigators confirming that there are millions of dollars and born payments to shell countries to the Biden Administration, we have hunter biden who most of us wouldnt hire to adopt it, receiving these millions of dollars for services that they cannot come forward and tell us about, and the potentially this is linked to President Biden, but we dont know that for a fact, because you are shut down you are not allowed to pursue the investigative angle that you wanted to. This is something we have to get to the bottom of. Its shameful whats happening i want folks to mark my word that we will not be stifled. The committee will not be stifled by the department of justice or anyone in the Biden Administration. We are going to pursue this and get to the bottom of it no matter what. Thank you mister chairman i yield back. The chair recognizes mr. Gomez for five minutes. Thank you so much mister chairman i just want to be clear whistleblower allegations should be taken seriously. I had a whistleblower approach my office from my first term. One of the things that i learned from that is that there is a clear fact based process that needs to be followed to ensure whistleblower investigations are recovered without political interference this is not whats happening here today when this originated, republicans through that process into the gutter. Here is how we there are more than 50 people identified in the ways and Means Committee deposition on the same topic. They were not spoken to they were not interviewed before the republican majority release these allegations to the public. They didnt take the time to check their facts and the republicans even admitted during questioning that they never interviewed or ask questions are sought to ask questions of these individuals and instead republicans took 13 people who they knew to agree to cooperate their claims why would not they and interview all people identified who might have information in this case there are more than 50 people who are not given the opportunity to defend their names. Respond to allegations are give them important context and facts. To the whistleblower transcript contained on authenticated and unverified documents from unknown searches on the internet. The exhibit used by the adjustment from ohio and the early part of the hearing is one of those unverified documents pulled from the internet. They treat it as a smoking gun you can literally find anything on the internet that doesnt make it true and republicans are refused to verify sources they are trying to give from irs files provided by the whistleblower or from some trusted source but in fact they are not. These documents are an authenticated and we dont even know their real source. What kind of basis is this for a serious investigation. Three, the majority relief transcript with all these errors i cited is before verifying these allegations. They put the car before the horse theyre trying to speak to dozens of valuable witnesses. Refusing to verify the information this whole process and its credibility of the window. Additionally, this process has been taken in by the fact that one of these whistleblowers attorneys has raised a standstill contribution to the republican chairman of ways and means as recently as february of this year and one of these whistleblowers they didnt even come voluntarily, they were none of this inspires confidence in my colleagues are in the process that has been taken. If my colleagues were serious about these allegations, they would have gone through the proper steps to ensure this investigation was done correctly, but they didnt. They rather drag this investigation and this committee into the gutter. And that was approved by the gentlewoman from georgia. If the gutter is where they shoot the live, then they drag us all down there with them. I dont want any part of it. I ask for the consent to submit for the record a letter from their ways and means Ranking Member to take and property of this investigation. Without objection, we with, that id like to yield my remaining time to mr. Goldman from new york. Thank you mr. Gomez, the gentleman, i want to return to the Washington Post october 6th article. I would ask unanimous consent to enter it in the record. And your testimony, mr. Shabbily, before the ways and Means Committee, you stated, quote, there was a leak. It appeared to come from the agents level who was critical of the prosecutors for not charging the case. What you testified earlier was different. Which one do you stand by today . Im sorry, can you repeat that. There was a leak and appeared to come from the agents level who was critical of the prosecutors for not to charging the case. It appears because it came from the agent level. The source was a source familiar with the topic. Okay, it seems to be a distinction. And then you understand that obviously the grandeur 80 information is a felony, right . And best a gate of information and how multi would be a felony. So, would you agree that there would be some skepticism from any prosecutors about which of the agents may be the source of the leak . The time has retired, be feel free to answer the question. Serving multiple leaks of the investigation and the one on december 8th or ninth of 2020, it appeared to have come from someone, as leslie will stated i was asking about october 6th. So, anyone suspicion, right . The agent level. Thats what you said. Gentlemen, the time is expired. Youre the next question or after mr. Powell from texas for five minutes. Thank you, mister chairman. Were talking about obfuscating diverting and distracting. A whole lot of word bombs from the other side of the aisle. It makes no sense to what were here for today. You hear a lot of trump, trump, trump, giuliani, giuliani. I want to thank both the witnesses for being here. Its established that youre very credible and experienced. Your subject Matter Experts at what you do. You let a team of 12 elite agents in this investigation. How long are you investigating the hunter and biden investigation, how long are you doing it for . I started in january of 2020, 2 to 3 years. You both should be aware that one of Hunter Bidens lawyers have accused me of having access to crime. , mr. Shepley, are you a political actor . I am not. Mr. Ziglar, are you part of the Model Movement . I am not. Okay, thank. You i have to ask you a direct question. Its an important one. Are you too out to get hunter biden, are you out to get its all about justice here. And thats why a plea agreement, people ask me to come for clean agreements its outside my. Control justice where you want to get hunter . Justice, rather bombastically claimed when you are speaking earlier that this is all, and quote, normal stuff. Theres no evidence that hunter biden received preferential treatment. So, mr. Ziegler, do you agree with the statements . Normal staff, nothing out of the ordinary, and then hunter biden didnt receive any preferential treatment. Based on my transcripts, i would believe that answer, that question would be incorrect. Would you say that you vehemently disagree with those statements . I dont think it changes my perspective of it. All i can say is that we came for with the information, not following the investigative steps. It was out of the ordinary. Okay. Do you agree with those statements . Yes, this is at the. Ordinary when you read your transcribed interviews which are pretty massive and a vote of itself, its clear that the levels of interference and roadblocks at the doj and other federal governments and personnel put in front of you was astounding if not unprecedented. I was really shocked to see how a u. S. Attorney stonewalled and scuttle the investigation. Go back, december of 2020, the Prosecutorial Team is meeting to discuss the next steps. Hunter biden has received millions of dollars and foreign payment. One of his Shell Companies. To this day, no one can tell whatever did other than having a bunch of money. So, nobody knows what services the companys ever provided. Its december 2020. Hunter is vacating the offices. Hes moving those documents to a storage unit in northern virginia. Mr. Shepley, were you interested in the wet some of those documents might reveal . Yes, we were. Maybe it couldve shed light on criminal activity . Unfettered access to the documents there before the defense counsel can filter them. It would have been very advantageous. It couldve been a traffic trove, we would. Know what happened later. Well get there in a second. Did you prepare an affidavit to search that surgeon . Yeah mr. Ziegler did. That did u. S. Attorney weiss agree that if the unit wasnt access for 30 days that you could execute the warrant . That is correct. So, in and of itself, it seems weird, to wait 30 days how are you going to know if someone accesses it . Is it going to be under surveillance . Is their stake outs . Are we going to have to call Emilio Estevez and Richard Dreyfuss and have them deal with the binoculars and check things out . It wasnt in the transcript. It was unique. It would have been easier than what you just described. You dont have to wait 30 days. Did the assistant u. S. Attorney leslie wolf, what did she do when she learned that you wanted to execute the search warrant . So, she actually first approved and was saying that its going to take approval for us to get this fund. But then came back a few days later and said, no, were not going to move forward with this. I was the one who proposed, well, lets wait 30 days, well get the approval, we will make sure that the storage unit is not accessed. And then we can move forward with the warrant. Her response was, im going to think about it. And then we come to find out, a few days later, they had let Defense Council know we know about the storage unit. U. S. Attorney tipped off the lawyers of the person who is the subject of a yearslong criminal felony investigation. That what youre saying . Did ledley wolf tip off Hunter Bidens lawyers . Regarding the storage unit. Once you know, that the subject of a criminal investigation, any of those documents that can incriminate you are probably going to thats astounding to me that that is direct evidence, clearly a preferential treatment. And that is not normal stuff is that normal . I can tell you that was actually my kind of redline situation. It was a little bit different than emotionally refers to. I dont think we had a seat at the table. It disappointed me so badly. I knew this was something that we were up against. Thats like, okay, thats what we are to do. Have either youve seen Something Like that before in your decades a experience . Feel free to answer the question. No, i have not. I have not. I want to thank you both. Excellent public servants. Your courageous. Justice, thats the anything i want. Not democratic colleagues, not the legacy media, certainly not top officials. I yield back. The chair recognizes mr. Goodman from new york. I would like to get the extra minute that mr. Fallon got as well. Thank you guys for being here today. We dont have a lot of time here. I have a lot of questions. If i cut you, off im not trying to be, route im just trying to get through. Them i want to talk a little bit about the evidence you did have. Mr. Ziegler you are the case agent, how many documents did you say, would you say you gathered during the fiveyear investigation . So, i do believe i may have documents. I am limited by the statute. I would be more than welcome to turn them. I dont mean how many. I mean the number. It was a significant amount of documents. Hundreds of thousands . Millions . I dont wanna put a number two. It there were a lot. Bank records, right . We have a lot of bank records . Both domestic and foreign . That is correct. You conduct a search warrants . Yes, there was reference. Did you do other search warrants as well . When you see other search warrants why do you mean . Any other, electric, otherwise, physical. So, im going to stick to what i stayed in my transcript. There are multiple electronic search warrants. You said you conducted more than 60 interviews as part of this investigation, is that . Right that is correct. Thats a lot for any investigation. I wouldnt say that. I would say in my ten years i dont know how many investigations, i did 60 interviews. I want to focus for a second on the whatsapp we went through. Mr. Shapley, in your testimony, you said that the text message, the whats that message weve been talking about shows hunter biden discussing business with his father. Could you show me where in the text message it says anything about discussing business . With joe biden. If you like me to go through, it i can take time to review, it if you like me to. I dont have the time. Unfortunately, as you point, out i will tell you the only thing it says about it is that hunter biden was sitting with his father. It does not say anything about discussing any business. Mr. Chaplet, you also said in your testimony, and we talked about this a bunch, the agents were prohibited from pursuing leads related to joe biden and the big guy. The agency that anyway. The agents interviewing rob walker they asked you about that, right . They dont use the word big. And they asked about it in reference to that text. Do you recall that rob walker actually said in response to that that he was not aware that joe biden would ever apart of anything that he and hunter reducing . Thats what the witness said yes,. And then you describe a lunch, we talked about it earlier, where joe biden came to say hello at the Four Seasons Hotel to lunch that he was having with cfc executives, right . That is correct. What you didnt talk about is what rob walker said the origination of that lunge was. You testified that he said to, that hunter told his dad, according to rob walker, quote, i may be trying to start a company or a try to do something with these guys. Now, let me ask you something. That doesnt sound much like joe biden was involved in whatever hunter biden was doing with the ceo of sea, if hunter biden is telling him that hes trying to do business with them, does it . No, but it does show that he told his father he was trying to do business. Well, that is true. Hunter biden try to do business. That is correct. So, not only have you no direct evidence connecting joe biden to any of Hunter Bidens business deals, you actually had proof that he wasnt involved. That is the proof that you had. In the end of the day, this was a fiveyear criminal investigation with tens of thousands of documents, maybe hundreds of thousands, unusually, search warrants, aggressive techniques, you wrote a report recommending felony charges. It went to d. O. D. They wrote a 99page memo approval memo. Neither of you saw that, did you . That is correct. What was the recommendation . Approval, discretion, declination . So, i have to stick you testified that it was discretion, which means that it wasnt an approval it was to the discretion of the u. S. Attorneys office which had that doj tax memo. It had information from the defense lawyers, they spoke with and they are the ones who had to prove this case in court. I will tell, you as a federal prosecutor for ten years, i worked with many of your colleagues who do great work. Im sure you do great work as well. I never met an agent who didnt want to charge every possible case. What i noticed in five hours of testimony today, neither one of you have ever mentioned a portion of the case that may not be so strong, it may be suspect. Who may have a phone. The chicago prosecutors have to think about before charging a case. And that is not what the special agent report. Does that time has expired. They went a bit. Over the chair now recognizes mr. Perry from pennsylvania. I thank the chairman. Mr. Shabbily, if you can turn to page 30 of your transcript. I want to say to mr. Shapley and mr. Ziegler, we certainly appreciate you coming forward. Weve heard of alleged whistleblowers in the past. They couldnt reveal themselves. It led to an improper impeachment of a president that was unjustified and im substantiated. I do credit you, i think this is probably, its been very difficult its a, hard choice free to make. I think it was the right one. I commend you for. It minister shabbily, page 30 of your transcript, let me see, the middle of the page, the last sentence. Second paragraph, starting with every single day. Every single day is a battle to do our job. Youre following the letter of the law, youre taking in information, youre doing prescribes, you doing, this you, during this, you get that. Why is your day, thats a chilling lie. What do you mean when he said that . Every time we try to communicate, it was a slow walk. It was pushed. Off we needed the doj Public Integrity. Approval the o e o approval. It was just used as a crutch. The process is huge to stall the investigation. Ultimately, some people seem to be overlooking. At these prosecutors agreed with these charges. And you finally reached your red line. To answer mr. Fallons question, you are seeking justice, i believe you. Are you are seeking to follow the rules. He finally reached a red line on october 7th of 2022 at the meeting with u. S. Attorney white. Is that a reasonable characterization . Yes, thats correct, what do you mean when you reached your red line . So, throughout the investigation starting in the summer of 2020, my case agents were coming to me with certain concerns. Because we were worried about the discovery process with agents turning over documents at the end of the investigation, we wanted to protect it. I documented them on a recurring basis. Issues that we were having. It was after discussions with my agent. I also saw these things firsthand. So, we got to the point, its a heavy burden. I have a deep respect for the department of justice. The u. S. Attorneys. I worked with them in the past. Ultimately, to conclude that they were doing the wrong thing was just such a high burden. You concluded. That mr. Ziegler, your redlined, i think you, said i dont wanna miss characterize it, mischaracterized a little later, december, 14th 2020, a usa wolf tipped off the Biden Council about your plan to search the storage unit. The storage unit, the message that we are planning to do was a least intrusive. It was a story tonight. We needed to get the records. Again, you are seeking justice. You are seeking the truth. Absolutely, you make decisions based on what you learn. Turning back to you, mr. Shapely, what was your agencies leadership to respond when you try to alert officials outside your chain of command . So, most recently when special agents ziegler emailed the commissioner, they basically threatened and intimidated special agent ziegler, he had violated some type of law. Threatened and intimidated. He forced him, the chain of command, requirements, it does not meet the legal requirement. You are trying to seek justice. Youre trying to seek the truth. Theyre throwing and obstruction in front of you. They are obstructing you from doing it, arent they . So, my complaint for iris investigation and Senior Leadership, it does not necessarily block an investigation. I do believe that we raise things on a continual basis and they just stuck their head in the sand and they took no action. In terms of the retaliation, thats when they first reared their head. There was no doubt about it. The disclosures were made. They took mr. Ziglar, have you ever been threatened before in an investigation . I have not. I have come to learn that 60 grand juries may have happened before and two others inside the irs. Mr. Shapley . No, not for my own agency. When my friends on the other ideas this ill say they havent retaliated against you, simply not true. There is a law, five ust 20 303 b 13. They placed unlawfully you and your fellow supervisors under a gag order. Mr. Shapley and mr. Ziegler, what we are talking about as an obstruction of justice. You are seeking justice anywhere obstructed. It is against the law. Mister chairman, i yield the balance. The gentleman yields, back from florida. Thank you, mister chairman. Gentlemen, thank you for appearing today. Thank you for being a public servant. There should be no retaliation against you as whistleblowers. Unlike my colleagues that said nothing, and supported President Trump when he retaliated and fired him and escorted him from the building for appearing in an investigation, that shouldnt happen. To you of course, they said nothing when it happened to other people. We heard a lot about the biden family and Biden Associates. Bs, what is the apostrophe, but not joe biden, we didnt hear a lot about joe biden because he didnt do anything. Has nothing to do with him. My colleagues talked about Foreign Countries. Foreign entities. Trying to make it all scary for the American People. Of, course President Trump got five point 4 million from the chinese when he was president because they were leasing stasis and trump tower. He erica says president xi totally perfect. Jared kushner gets two billion dollars even though he saw totally kosher ivanka trunk shes doing business with the chinese while shes working in the white house, totally beautiful, right . What i bring that up they want to have credibility, they have none. The lack of their credibility questions your credibility. Not because of you personally because of what theyve done over the last several years. So, the chairman says your credible. Do you want to know what they feel about you . People like you. They work in, government i got pages of it. It goes on for years. You know what, ill read a couple of adjectives. Trump has called people like you, socalled whistleblowers, fake whistleblowers, partisan people. Political hack jobs, scams, frauds, traders, cowards, spies, losers, clowns, the eggs, puppets, unelected bureaucrats. My favorite, the deep state. By the way, you members of the deep state . Are you members of the deep state . Its a rhetorical question. Did you stop paying your deep state is . You did not attend the latest deep state meaning. Thats why youre not in the deep state. I cant tell when they want people like yourself to be in the deep state. Not a deep state. Depending on what the deep state of staying. Again, it undermines their credibility. It undermines the government. It ever minds they trust in governments. It undermines institutions. Throughout all of this, four years, four years of it, they said nothing. Now you know, in an effort to own hunter biden, okay, they are assembling nude photos of him. Having some intern have to sit in a room and blowup these photos and put it on poster boards. Figure out, oh which ones are beyond the pale. Mr. Shapley, you said the doj was slowing down the investigation. Some of that happens when President Trump was president. And, i found it when my colleagues tried to ask both of you these questions about when your perceived knowingness of this happens you struggled for a period of time to admit that it started under President Trump. Was President Trump directing that doj to slow down the investigation . No, he wasnt, just like President Biden isnt now. If theres any perceived issues with doj, thats what doj not the president. Mr. Ziegler, you said no ones above the law regardless of political affiliation. Do you think the president s soninlaw, do you think the president s soninlaw Jared Kushner who works in the white house couldnt get security clearance until the president made it happen . Was put in charge of with no exhibits mathematics periods got two billion dollars from the saudis. You guys made a lot of noise today about 17 million. What about two billion. Do you think a, person thank you for that question, the time is spent. Im limited to my testimony. I, understand i got. It think about it. Two billion. Two billion dollars. Foreign country. He was put in charge of air politics well he worked in the white house. They have no questions about the. Its totally great. Its totally wonderful. Right, joe biden has been in washington for almost 50 years. We did hear about hunter until about a couple years ago. Why, if you pay attention, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain like the wizard of oz. Donald trump is in so much trouble. They cant save him. What they can do, they can spend taxpayer money. All the time, why they control the hearing, convince the American People that somehow joe biden has done something wrong. There is no evidence. None, zero, zilch, not a. You know how i know that . Because they couldnt bring up their own impeachment. They had to bury it in the committee. On immigration, not on this topic. There are members of this committee that filed articles of impeachment. They didnt bring it up for a vote. They buried it. Again, not on this topic. There is no evidence of joe biden. Thank, you mister chairman, i yield. Back the chair recognizes thank you mr. Chairman for being here today. Now, mr. Shapley, mr. Zeigler, if you could each just quickly, 20 seconds or, less summarize what did each of you when you criminally investigated hunter and joe biden, as it relates to china. So, specifically related to china. There is the cfc, had sunwest three, state energy hk, yeah, those are, i believe theyre the three entities and my transcript. I would echo the same thing in my transcript. And there is, a chinese billionaire. Hes tied to intelligence gathering agencies. His company is the cfc. Cfc c, c e f c. What is the connection between hunter biden and cfc. Im going to have to stick to the confines of my testimony. What i can tell you is that there may be some documents that are responsive to that i can turn those over to the Means Committee. They would vote to get those released. Yes, we would love to get those then. And i see that hunter biden received more than 8 million in foreign payments including 100,000 from cfc directly. 664,000 from state energy hk as you mentioned. Another chinese company. I 325,000 dollar capital contribution made into harvest on hunters behalf. An Equity Investment fund. Were you shocked to find that the then Vice President son received all of these, particularly the ones from chinese entities . As i tried to stay earlier, in this position yet to be nonpartisan. It is in a matter of shock. Its not the political position or the party. Just the Vice President son. So, im not accusing you of political bias here. Follow the evidence. See where the transactions are coming from, interview witnesses try to figure out what the purpose of those transfers of money where for. Mr. Shabbily, and march of 2017 Robertson Walker received a 3 Million Dollar wire from a chinese company. State energy hk, it took place just two months after joe biden left office as Vice President. It was in your testimony that you said this was getting into place. It was said today that this would be assembled before he left office. It came to fruition. Can you quickly discuss the Robinson Walker connection to bidens family . Yeah, special agent ziegler, i dont think i spoke about the 3 million. Any of that information related to 3 million we can turn over to the committee and they can vote to release it to you. Thank you. I see that hunter biden and gun when deng i. C. E. Fc associate established hudson west three elise e. Each owned a percent of the company between august of 2017 and october of 2018. They had over 4 million to hunter biden and over 75,000 to james biden, now, can you discuss these payments . My colleagues are wondering what the apostrophe is when were talking about biden. It seems like there are more bidens who are receiving money. And an answer to his question regarding President Biden and an answer to this, question any documents that we believe we may have in our possession, we can turn them over to the house ways of Means Committee. They can vote to release it to. I request that you release those to them. And then also we have the situation with gallup and he was doing with the cfc. I guess that makes you a chinese spy so i guess hunter biden is a chinese spy according to their allegations. Do you have any information about gallup that you can turn over to the ways and Means Committee . Any information, we can turn it over to the house thank you, i appreciate you gentlemen for being here and for your bravery and courage for standing up. We know that we saw a lot of evidence today about millions of dollars being shuffled through these companies weve seen delayed warrants to impact a 2020 election. Prosecutors instructed not to involve the big guy. The optics are clear. Hunter biden sold access to his father with an influence peddling scheme. In my opinion, it compromises the current president of the United States. The biden family has never sold anything in their life. But their influence in washington, d. C. Every business they have is monetizing. Thank you for making that very clear today, gentlemen. I yield. The gentlelady yields back, the chair now recognizes miss mcclain from michigan. I know its been a long day, we appreciate you, the American People appreciate you. To give some truth and honesty back i thank you again. Weve heard rhetoric today. I want to talk about it. Just the facts. Just the facts. Mr. Shabbily, in august of 2020, your team obtained a july 2017 whats at mashhad from hunter biden tuesday, whoa at shinys businessman. And i want to read a few lines from that message. I will refresh your memory. I quote, please have the director comey, not james or tony or jim, have him call me tonight. I am sitting here with my father. We would like to understand why the commitment made has not been fulfilled. If i get a call or text or anyone involved in this other than you, i will make certain that between the man sitting next to me and every person he knows and my ability to forever hold a grudge, that you will regret not following my direction. I am sitting here waiting for the call with my father and quote. That is a fact. I dont make that up. Thats not my opinion. Thats not rhetoric. This is a message from hunter biden. Its a search warrant from a backup i. My phone, your phone . It was from hunter biden. It was from hunter biden. I thank you. It was linked to hunter biden. Now, mr. Shipley. Where the bidens complicating a deal with the fcc timeframe . I would have to stick to my transcripts. I dont know if i describe that. I think that is a portion of the Whatsapp Message. However, i do believe the full chain. If its, relevant we can turn it over to the house ways and Means Committee. They can vote to release that. It would be appreciated. To set the stage. One person has come forward, tony bubble in, ski contemplating a deal it was cfc even earlier than 2017. Hes come forward and said that. Is tony bottle in ski that tony referenced in the whatsapp . We need to stick to the transcript. In my testimony i reference sinohawk. The sino hawk deal. We know the deal never went through. That relates to see espn china. The tony that he is referencing, do you believe that to be tony . I did not mention anything related to tony bob lindsey. Or what i can do again is provide any information related to him to house ways and Means Committee. Thank you so. Much and then the reference to james. Is there a reference to james in there . Is that james gilley are . Again we might have to get that one too. Again, its just critical that we stick to the fats i appreciate early speaking with facts not on a partisan basis. If we can get that that would help. And another message. They respond to the early message. Kathy, i will call you on whatsapp. Hunter writes back, oh, my friend. Oh, okay, my friend. I am sitting here waiting for the call with my father. Again, my concern is the ability that he tells the truth. To coverup is always works. How many times did we hear joe biden say not involved, not involved, not involved. I have no idea. He sitting right there while hes making these alleged petal influence peddling. Mr. Shepley, what does this message in decay to you . Can you comment on that . Yeah, they indicate that we needed to take additional investigative steps to find out what the facts and circumstances were. It was simply not supported. What do you mean it wasnt supported . Special agent ziegler so, the normal part of attacks investigation, and you want to understand why individuals are earning money. If someones paid a significant amount of money in order for that to be income, not again, if not alone, you need to understand the substance to why that person is paying that. And thats why you need to understand the four corners of the transaction. The next standard operating procedure, its usually held for normal members of society. That standard operating procedure. What youre telling, you werent able to pursue the. Thats correct. Im at our time. Thank you so much, mister. Chairman thank you again. The chair recognizes mr. From tennessee. Thank, you mister chairman, members, thank you all for being here. When i was a younger man, the country wasnt going to well. One night it really culminated in something. I remember my daddy brang, saying, lord lord, please dont let us lose our country. Thats what ill be making tonight after i hear this testimony because it sickens me. Mr. Ziegler, i know youre a man of faith. Mr. Shepley, after tonight, maybe you are you are, and i am not sure. I will be remembering you all in my prayers. Mr. Ziegler, i appreciate your incredible courage. It takes guts to get up here and put your families and your spouses through all this garbage. Its not right. Thank you all sincerity. I appreciate that. Its also come to my attention, mr. , ziegler that after this hearing was already underway, research is circulating from, quote, Hunter Bidens legal team, unquote. Suggestions that you had leaked sars and other investigative information, someone who had released the information online. Is there a statement youd like to make about whether youve leaked any investigative information to someone to reveal on the internet . Im sure 100 bidens legal team is obviously watching right now. These dirtbags are trying to summary through the press. Its disgusting. Id appreciate hearing a direct answer from you, brother. Theres two parts to that. It was that release of that bank report. My name was listed in there. My name was out in the public as one of the agents working this case. That was maybe two or three years ago. That came out. And then on top of that, me and my husband were in a report thats out on social media and twitter. A person with the same last name that i have. Who ive never met them. Ive never turned over information to them. We happen to have the same last name. For my sexuality, my Sexual Orientation, my husband was put out there. Information related to me. It was in an effort to discredit me. Im the person working for the liberal side. I must be a plant. It was awful the things they were saying about me. I can tell you that i have never turned over any information regarding this case to anyone, anyone related to the marco polo report. Someone with the same last name that i have. Thank you, i appreciate that. Im sorry. Thank you so much. Im sorry your husband and you had to go through that misery. Mr. Ziegler, how much do you think hunter biden and his business associations, associates russ see from the burisma board . Im going to need to refer to my transcripts. Let me help you out 666, 000, 667. That sound right . Is that a monthly transfer . Im not sure. Its a monthly transfer, im in the wrong line of work. Burisma paid everyone involved 6. 5 million. Okay, okay. When did hunter leave the burisma board. Can you hold on one second . Its not in the confines of my transcript. That would be something i have to turn over to the house committee. What was the money received from burisma sent directly to hunter biden in 2014 . It was not. Why would they do that . Why would they switch and send it to the Business Partner . So, i can talk about my normal experience. Hold on one second. I can provide this in an additional testimony to the house ways and Means Committee to explain that. Okay, id like to get that. Mr. Ziegler, also, Rosemont Seneca both high, they dont do anything, they dont produce anything. Skaneateles, they didnt do anything. Owasco didnt do anything. Hudson west three didnt do anything. All these affiliated companies, are they all hundred biden affiliated companies . I believe i referenced them. I knew of that was. But i didnt reference how i knew of them. I should address that. I believe my point is youre familiar with these companies. Were you able to identify what the bidens here did in the business of selling and what they did with these companies . Either one of you all. Mr. Shapley . Again, im going to have to you, the response to that, the reason why some of these payments were received, we can turn over as a part of an additional testimony. My point, is they did not sell crappy ties. They sold influence. In my opinion. And im out of time mister chairman i would like to close and say if anyone wants to text me and all of this, i hope you all get to the bottom of this. I hope you do something about it. That would be my wish for this committee. Thank you so much. That is the goal. The chair now recognizes mr. For five minutes. Thank you mister chairman. Mr. Ziegler and shabbily, were you able to pursue this investigation in areas that may implicate the president s involvement in his familys businesses . We were hindered from following that. Would you echo . That, in my testimony i reference the campaign. President biden said during a debate, i will quote, my son has not made any money in terms of this being about it. When you talking . About it china i have not had the only guy who made money from china is this guy. Donald trump. Hes the only one. No one else has made any money from china. Mr. , ziegler was the president telling the truth when he said that his son hunter biden had not made any money from china. I dont know what the president at that time was thinking. What i can tell you based on what i testified in my transcript he did earn money from china. Right, in march of 23, just a couple months ago, the committee had bank records that hunter biden, the president son james biden, hallie biden all receive money originating from trying to Robertson Walker llc, a Company Owned by rob walker. A well biden associate. When presented with this evidence by reporter, the president said, thats not true, mister ziegler is it true the president s family received many originating from china which was funneled through the Robinson Walker account . That is correct. As it pertains to hunter biden investigation, mr. , sadly you sat on a meeting on october 7th 2022 with mr. Way. You testified to. That is that correct . Thats correct. Later this, year june 7th, mr. Whites publicly stated in a letter to the Judiciary Committee the following. As the attorney general, as theyve stated i have been granted ultimate authority over this matter. Including responsibility for deciding where, when, and whether to file charges. That statement is dramatically and consistent with your recollection of a meeting thats happened october of 2022, that . Correct corroborated documentation of that meeting. It clearly shows that thats not accurate. How is that not accurate from your recollection . During that meeting, the United States attorney white said he wasnt the deciding person. He said it right out. He further went in, they had to approve any charges first to which as of march 16th, 2023 we know they had not approved anything at. He further goes and said that the u. S. Attorney had declined to allow charges to be brought there. And that he requested the special Counsel Authority around that time of denying the process. The process would lead him to another President Biden point of view and the cat district of california. He said that meeting on october 7th 2022 that california declined it. He would have to request the special authority again. Right, so during that meeting, subsequent letters that mr. White produced senator graham and the Judiciary Committee. He seems to corroborate that meeting. Some of the facts in that meeting. Maybe he didnt have that authority, right . So, yes the second letter on june 30th clearly shows that he is saying that he has full authority. He has altman a thorny. He immediately goes in and said, but my authority is geographically limited. I dont understand how you can conclude anyway from that statement on the june 30th letter that he has authority. Simply not accurate. Thats something that you saw early on, that something that you saw as a problem. What options remain in bringing charges against hunter biden are in the district of columbia. I guess it would have been the special attorney authority that ive seen recently referenced when d. C. Said no, we know d. C. Said no, we were having conversations with our fbi counterparts of how do we bring in a special counsel under the situation. I think that once we knew there was going to be potential problems with going to President Biden appointees with moving this case forward we were actively trying to figure out how his agents get that to happen. Still, to this day there is not a special counsel assigned to this investigation. The approach, was quickly, hear the approach was to go to d. C. With matthew grave where he was not able to bring charges under a biden appointee he went to the Central District of california, mr. Strata not able to bring charges. So, to both of you and conclusion in relation to the attorneys ability to obtain special Counsel Authority and bring these cases and either california or d. C. Do you agree with attorney general garlands testimony that, quote, the United States attorney white has been advised that he has full authority to bring cases in other districts that he needs to do that. I dont believe thats accurate. I think the key word there is he has. I dont think thats accurate. I think thats refuted in the later letter by u. S. Attorney david white. Thank you both, thank you both for being here and for your bravery and for testifying today. I know its not easy on you or your family. The American People in this committee appreciate the work that you do and that you continue to do and the truth that you are shedding light on. I yield back. He yields back. The chair recognizes mr. Edwards from North Carolina for five minutes. Thank, you mister chair. Mr. Ziegler, did you ever ask for access to Hunter Bidens. Com in your investigation . I do recall requesting access. Were you granted it . I dont believe thats in the confines of my transcript. I do know. Did you look at the laptop, so, i can jump in there, i documented a meeting where we had this discussion. It was included in the house ways and Means Committee transcript. Special agent ziegler asked multiple times that he had certain pieces of certain downloads from the devices. He did not have access to all of. Them and thats when leslie will said thats because prosecutors decided not to give it. You effectively were denied access. Mr. Shapely, in your interview with the ways and Means Committee, you stated the following regarding efforts to obtain a search warrant for, at the, time former Vice President bidens guesthouse. We talked about Storage Units earlier. Hunter biden had been saying and insisted that leslie wolfs assessment of the situation regarding the likelihood of such a warrant being approved. There was more than enough probable cause for the physical search warrant there. The question was, whether the juice was worth the squeeze. She continued the optics that were a driving factor in the decision on whether to execute search warrants. She said a lot of evidence in her investigation would be found in the guesthouse of former Vice President biden but said theres no way that we will get it approved. I open this question to both of you. In the course of your distinguished career it in the iris, has a doj official ever attempted to argue against the ex while acknowledging that such a warrant being carried out would likely yield positive ever than sheer a results for the investigation . Mr. Shapely. My response would be the argument would not be required. It would be discussions with the investigators and working with the prosecutors. If you are on the same page, it would move on. With the circumstances and probable cause being achieved knowing evidence was there i dont know how she could have not allowed us to execute the search warrant. I mean, it goes further even to the storage unit when you talk about access to something and you are relying now to turn the records over to you versus you having access to those records. They are not being potentially destroyed. There is a multitude of reasons why youd want to execute a search warrant. Mister chair, id like to share some thoughts. This hearing is much like arguing with my wife. We start out on the topic, and then we go all kinds of different directions. It seems like thats what im hearing at least from the other side today. Ive heard over and over that President Biden has not been implicated or proven for any wrongdoing here it is the intent of this Oversight Committee to continue to look at the evidence that we have here. The issue at hand however is that it is joe bidens son that is the target of the seems to have had preferential treatment on a number of levels. The investigators were denied access to the laptop. The biden family was tipped off with the warrant on the storage unit. The investigators were denied access to the guesthouse. Even knowing are suspecting that there was evidential, or evidence in that. And that is what concerns the American People. That is the real two tiered Justice System that we see here. Its not that joe biden has been proven to do anything wrong yet. Its that joe bidens son has received preferential treatment through the department of justice. I think thats a shame. I appreciate these gentlemen being here to share their story. The gentleman yields back, the chair recognizes lang more from North Carolina. From new york, buffalo new york. Ive been to the place. Thank, you mister chairman. Thank you to the two very brave whistleblowers for whats been a very grueling hearing today. I am very grateful for openly testifying in front of everyone. This must be challenging despite providing accurate testimony. That goes directly to my point. Its important to sum up a few things. I just want to ask questions to mr. Shapely and ziegler. Its true that you provided testimony to the house ways and Means Committee, correct . Correct. How long did each of your interviews last . Around seven hours. A little bit more than six or seven hours. Okay, when do those interviews occur . Mine was late may of june 1st. Of this year. Where democratic staff present during your interviews . Did they question you . Yes, they did. Democratic staff was president an action and was present. Did you give your testimony knowing you can be criminally prosecuted if you lied to congress . Yes, i did. How long is your testimony been public for the American People to read . For the last three plus weeks probably. Around three weeks. Youve been questioned by republican and democratic members today, correct . Thats correct. , given all of this, you gave over 15 combined hours of testimony. Hours of public testimony today. This has been public for weeks. Not one Single Person has been able to contradict a single fact about your testimony. That is incredible. Its that impressive. I speak to your credibility, your attention to detail, and now as whistleblowers. The attacks you hear today arent actually because of your testimony, democratic talking points are meant to protect the biden like the doj and the irs. Your testimony speaks for itself its a powerful. I am so glad you are willing to voluntarily come in today. Thats why mr. Chairman, yet another example of why this committee was continue this investigation into these matters. Im proud to yield back. The gentleman yields back. Can i Say Something regarding one of the topics that was brought up here regarding the 99page memo, there was discretion given in there. From what i understand, discretion there is also a language that ive seen included in tax memos, it references the need to charge the felonies, that you have to charge the felonies essentially. I would ask congress when mr. Weiss comes to testify here, what did that . What did that memo say. In august when he got it from his team, what did that memo say, did it approve felony and misdemeanor charges . What happened that after . Thats crucial for you guys to understand. Thank you, mr. Shapely, did you have anything else youd like to add . The department of Justice Division has a policy called the major account policy. That basically mirrors what special agent ziegler is saying. They actually teach it when they come out to speak to agents and provide training to agents. The major policy is that they have to charge the felony. They cant just plead away the felony just to get out of the potential trial. They cant rely on charging misdemeanors when there is felony charges on the table. As weve said all along, these prosecutors agreed with multiple felonies none of them were charged. I have one more thing to add to that. I go back to the last spring, david weiss is going to do the right thing. Hes absolutely going to do the right thing. Lets hold off. We are moving forward. We get to august. We get approval and recommended approval is for the felony and misdemeanor charges. So, how do we end up where were at today . We just dont know. We gentlemen, would yield last 30 seconds . We were told the same thing about mr. Weiss as well. So, we share your disappointment. Mr. Ziegler, you said there were foreign documents related to this matter, related to the investigation . Yes, would you provide the documents to the committee. Yeah, i can provide them to the ways and Means Committee. A normal process for obtaining foreign documents, a corresponding request. You can request those corresponding wires. Thats the stuff you can take. Getting foreign money transfers. Would you also provide the full transcript . So, i spoke my attorney and well turn it over. The chair now recognizes mr. Berlin center from missouri. Thank, you mister chair, good news, im the last one. Next to last. I want to reiterate. Its the American People, they should be pest and angry about this. No one gets away with not paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes. Having just blown over. Turned into a misdemeanor charge. Especially when you have other criminal activity involved. You know, its funny, this hearing, no one denies the fact that hes guilty of this stuff. We all know hes guilty. The question is, i think the question is, to what extent was his father aware . Its kind of like schrodingers cat. Either he was aware of whats going on and he knew what his son was doing and hes or hes not maybe he was completely clueless. Absent minded. Unaware of what his family was doing. One or the other is the truth. You cant come to any other conclusion rather than that. The question is, the problem is, if you are not able to determine or list that box and determine if the cat is dead or not, was joe biden truly involved or not. Mr. Shabbily throughout the investigation, mr. , ziegler wet investigative steps that would have been ball joe biden, whether you would like to pursue but were not able to. I guess in my testimony, i talked about the atmosphere. When we are interviewing witnesses. Talking about specific areas, specifics being the campaign that we were prevented. There was rolling eyes with us. He was a harsh environment. You are turned down directly as well. There were situations to where i was not able to ask questions, yes. You arent able to listed and find out whats underneath. There were certain, and our investigation you want to follow back. That is a job, you worked the case. I know that you were tipped off about it. It was tipped off about the storage unit before you were able to actually search at. What were you can you say what you are looking for, you built up to this point. And now you know there are strong indications there something. There i believe in the garish testimony. He moved the higher office. He being hunter move the office into the storage unit. So, this was off computers. I specifically wouldnt have been in there. Okay besides tax crimes what other violations were being investigated by any other agency . Those arent on the confines of our testimony. What other charges. Offshoots. Whether other agencies that were working with you that were working on some other fbi was working the case. So, you cant speak to them. It was a Foreign Agent registration act. I cant speak to that. What i can tell you, not only do we investigate tax crimes. We also investigate Money Laundering. Any instances of Money Laundering, we are allowed to investigate the crimes. Mr. Congressman, if i can add, in my transcript i do say that there is a fair issue at play. There was a fair issue for of we was that, is that pursued . We are not part of the investigation anymore. I mean thats our whole point of a special counsel. If there is these offshoot investigations, were going to rely on the same thing to happen. And your investigation, you knew there was foreign Bank Accounts. Foreign money wires. Are you aware the biden family has or owned Bank Accounts . Any record that i would have related to that i can turn over to the house ways and Means Committee. They could vote to release that. Thank you, i yield back the remainder of my time. Were you ever given access to the forum in 23 that allege joe biden and hunter biden were a part of a bribery scheme . The reason i ask that that allegation is consistent. The way that the oligarchy claims he gave the bidens the bribe is consistent with what weve seen in romania and other countries. They set up all these companies and then they launder the money through the Shell Companies back down to the different biden family members. I wondered if you knew about that forum before it became public. I could speak to. That in my original transcript, i wouldnt have been able to say that i knew anything about 10 23. I provided the supplement of who i saw open Source Information from the former attorney general bill barr. He said he thought the document he said to deliver for the investigation. The team is far, to the best my, knowledge never saw that document. So, the team that was in charge of investigating the biden family protects crimes, never received the fbi documents that alleged oh biden was involved in a bribery scheme. The answer is. No everyone knew youre investigating the bidens for at least tax evasion. Generally, speaking if theres any types of money coming and, if there is a criminal talks investigation ongoing, i dont see how that information could be withheld from the investigators. I can tell, you i can provide this in my testimony. There is things that were contained on that document that could further cooperate other information that we might leave having an issue. It could be regarding a foreign official. So, if we have information regarding that in a document or witness, we can further corroborate later evidence and like i said if thats something we have we can turn it over to the house committee. Thank you, thank, you the chair recognizes miss lieu enough from florida. The fbi, they first learned about the a laptop that allegedly belong to hunter biden and had evidence of potential crimes in october of 2019 . Did the fbi first learn of it . I dont know if i speak about who first learned of it. Okay, the answer would be yes. Thank you. Is it true that the and of ember of 2019 by Hunter Bidens icloud account. Yeah, thats in the transcript. Transcript riled the fbi analyze computers. There was a report that the fbi analysis had taken place. Can you point to the page in the transcript hateful. Transcript 12. Could you repeat the question . Isnt it true that the fbi verified the laptops authenticity of 2019 by matching the device cloud against the icloud account. They performed an fbi analysis. Yes, yes. Mr. Ziegler did you see this report . I dont think that i talked about that in my transcript. Im assuming that was probably very frustrating. You are conducting an investigation. So, i could speak to this again. I did continuously document a long meeting about the last half. Special agent ziegler confirmed that he pointed out individual pieces of data that he was provided. And then he asked why he hadnt seen other pieces of data. And thats when attorney wolf told him the prosecutors were withholding information from the investigators. Whats important with withholding, they never said what they were withholding. I think that is important. So, for my understanding the u. S. Attorney said that you havent seen it because for a righty of reasons they kept it from the agent. They kept this information from leo. I think its important to note, correct . Thats correct. Isnt it relevant evidence for you in your teams to review mr. Ziegler that this evidence would help you conduct your investigation . In an everyday normal investigation you, would want to know. Youre the investigator. We are the ones that are supposed to process the information and provide the relevant information to the prosecutors. So, we should note absolutely everything that were looking at. We have to testify to its one day. Its safe to say that its not a normal practice to withhold evidence. Its not a normal practice to withhold and not tell us what youre withholding from us do you know who made that decision to withhold information . That i do not. Its not in my transcript. Okay. Okay. Mr. Shapley, when you learned about this information and you are denied information at the same time, this is october 2020, correct . Yes. At the same time do you remember Hunter Bidens laptop being discussed or rather by the media . I remember the discussion of the laptop. I think everybody heard about the laptop and i dont know if i talked about it or knew about the media suppressing it. I think its important to note that the fbi learned about the laptop in 2019,. Thats 2019, not 2020, the fbi authenticated the last top and november of 2019. And then they take possession of the laptop. They do analysis, these analysis and information are not provided to you guys. The irs agents conduct in the case. Mind, you the folks running the nuts and bolts of this tax fraud case. Theyre learning about all this information, and yet at the same time there denied access to it. Meanwhile, the media is actively working to suppress that. At the same, time 51 National Security officials plan signed on to a letter saying that the fbi, the fbi has authenticated russian disinformation. Mind, to joe bidens son, which i think is important to note that many of my colleagues try to make this about race, theres a two tiered Justice System for black and brown people. Yet, we are investigating, according to their, terms a man of White Privilege who is being aided and abetted by this administration and being criminally covered for by the apartment of justice and yet somehow thats not supposed to be a topic of the session. I have 41 seconds. Left would you like to say anything for the record for the American People so they would know whats really happening . I have something. Theres two things. I believe that leslie wolf and u. S. Attorney for my work, they have said that. We did a great job in this investigation. I want to make that clear. Youll were not out here to get people. Were here for accountability. We learn from it. Thats the most important part of why were here. You are doing great. I know that you are not conservative. I know youre not a republican. I will say this, thank you for bringing faith back to some parts of the iris of people understand that just because your last name is biden doesnt mean your held above the law. Thank you. Chairman, i yield my time. The gentlelady yields back. That concludes our question. Again, i want to thank you all for being here. Im going to yield to the muchimproved Ranking Member. Mr. Castillo cortez for york for closing statements. I will take the golden id like to thank the witnesses here today once again. We acknowledge fully that this is not easy. Your respect, rather your service, your public service, your respect and value. Thank you for your testimony. Yeah, its important for us to summarize much of what we heard and saw today. Overall, what the matter is about. You have to handpicked by attorney general barr has for four years investigated together with a dozen agents and at least for prosecutors and the tax division of the department of justice, the son of President Biden. Hunter biden has been charged with a felony and misdemeanor. Two misdemeanors. He is pleading guilty to several crimes and submitting to sentencing by an appointed judge. A trump appointed judge. However, we have also seen an effort to find an issue with the prosecution. The existing prosecution. This is a person who has admitted to a crime. And finding evidence of political interference. Its a very serious charge. Much of what we saw today honed in on a conversation and a testimony. A conversation. One of todays witnesses was involved in it. In which mr. Shabbily heard mr. White to say that he was denied special counsel status. That accounts had been contradicted by the u. S. Attorney white who has reiterated several times that he had full authority to bring any charges in any district and have received assurances from the department of justice that if he needed special attorney status to bring the charges youll be granted. We are left here with two possible options for the story. Either mr. White who is appointed by trump, interested by attorney general barr also serving under trump who is lying to protect the Biden Administration. Or respectfully disagreed with the charges that todays two witnesses wanted to bring as professionals in their professional opinion. This agreement overcharges is not uncommon the irs criminal tax Council Attorneys have disagreed and charging decisions as we heard here today. 90 of the. Time and this particular case, reviewing attorneys that irs than the tax addition raised issues with the proposed charges. Witnesses described how mr. Weiss expressed some concerns about the charges. In fact, in some of the testimony we saw, mr. Shabbily recognized with regard to at least one of the charges with himself recommended he could. I am quoting from testimony. Some issues with that that would preclude it from being charged. Now, i understand the two witnesses who testified here today are just appointed after five years of investigation. I believe you all are honorable serving professionals truly. And mr. Weiss disagrees with this analysis of facts. There was absolutely frustration that to not quote have a seat at the table. They made his decision about how to charge in this case he did charge. And that was a decision that he in charge of the case was empowered to make the question, i believe, that is very important to address is why we are holding these hearings today despite what we have seen as deliberately lobbying for this hearing by a political candidate. Donald j trump. What we also taught today was the revival of certain conspiracy theories around ukraine for us promoted by Rudy Giuliani it during the first impeachment of trump in 20 and the reelection campaign. We did not bring that up. I was first brought up by the route that required it today. Sherman comer started the hearing by asking these witnesses about burisma and other members of the committee again raised the sector of these debunked conspiracy theories. It has been debunked time and time again. Including by trumps own department of justice. That being said, this is the problem. Bringing these conspiracies into these committees. Maybe get more. It does not stop. Today, we have gotten a new Conspiracy Theory. One that requires us to believe that david weiss, a trump appointed u. S. Attorney trusted by trump appointed attorney general barr has somehow been complicit in abetting and concealing deep state conspiracy to protect hunter biden on behalf of the Biden Administration when they were selected by donald trump. This is a theory which has apparently been proven unsuccessful given that hunter biden is now criminally charged on facing sentencing by a trump appointed judge. Today, also marks a new realm when pornographic images were paraded in this hearing room. Chairman comer, last october you were with the sorted details of Hunter Bidens life. You are quoted as saying, quote, thats counter to a credible investigation. I agree. Sadly, that is a reflection of how rogue some individuals here have been willing to go on their effort to attack the president family. I dont care who you are in this country, no one deserves that. It is abuse. It is abusive. It is republicans truly want to get to the facts here and they want to understand why mr. Wise decided to the way he did, lets hear from mr. Rice, until then, we must move on from these theories and focus on the issues that matter to the American People like ending the scourge of gun violence that is plaguing our country, combatting the climate crisis, standing up for a constitutional rights. Yes, going after the anonymous amount of an equity and injustice in our tax system. With that, i yield back. The gentlelady yields back, i want to ask for your consent to enter in the record three letters from myself, chair jordan, and jerry smith to the director of secret service, the attorney general, requesting more information pertaining to our investigation. Without objection to order as well, entering into the record the two thank memorandums we have already submitted to our friends in the media that we are trying to teach Financial Literacy to, id like to enter those memorandums into the record. Again, i want to thank you all so much for what youve done today. I cant imagine what youve been through. I apologize for what youve been through. This is this committee is all about. The house Oversight Committee is to identify mismanagement in the government. To do, that we depend on whistleblowers. Whistleblowers coming forward and telling their story, thats what you all have done. To think that there are people on the committee who have tried to question your credibility it is pretty low mark for the history of the house Oversight Committee. Again, thank you, what weve learned today, just to go back six months, when this investigation started, week became the majority, they laptop, according to many of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, many of our friends in the media, was russian disinformation. What we now know, the laptop contains many of the financial records, the financial documents, the communication between both the president as well as other members of this family, with many of these associates, with many of these foreign nationals. So theres a clear path of evidence, ill say that investigating the biden family influence is like investigating a waiting there through a snowstorm, there is so much evidence laying around. We confirmed today what we have been saying on this committee for several months. The bidens took an over 10 million, 17. 3 million to be exact. From adversary, we have no earthly idea of what they did to receive that money. I think that that is concerning to every american. We have evidence that hunter biden spoke to his father about his business, and that hunter used his fathers name to shake down the Chinese Communist party person. We saw that in a Whatsapp Message that you are released. We have seen that another emails and correspondents from the laptop. We learned unfortunately these brave an incredible was a lowers have been retaliating against the irs inundated by the biden shady legal team. And their laptops in the press. For that i apologize, and i hope that that does not deter others, prevent credible whistleblowers from coming forward. You know, all roads lead to joe biden. The big guy. The guy who was set to go in business with the Chinese Communist party, linking it, the entity that wired money to the biden family, as well as to go up to, as mentioned earlier, by one of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle joe biden was even set to Share Office Space according to an email with this Chinese Communist party backed entity. And that is a concern, that should be a concern to every american. Because whether you are republican or democrat, whether you are rural or urban, one thing that we can agree on is that americans attest public corruption. That is why we have an irs, thats why we have an irs Criminal Division, that is why we have an Oversight Committee, that is where we have an epics committee, that is why we are supposed to have a judicial system in america that provides equal justice for all. But we have to work together, and we have to be honest, and we have to respect our checks and balances. And what we learned today, as troubling as anything, is that your investigation, that you spent years of your life on, that we have spent six months investigating, where you see a pattern of suspicious activity, where money flows from shady Foreign Companies and from shady foreign nationals, through Shell Companies that are then laundered, and that is according to six Different Banks in the suspicious activity reports, wandered them an intern parental payments to the biden family. For things that we have no idea what they did to receive the money. And as part of that years long investigation, the fbi is sitting on the whole time a document that alleges joe biden and hunter biden took a 5 Million Dollar bribe from a ukrainian oligarch where there are big records that show that the bidens were receiving money from this entity. It was already evidence there to show that. I dont know whether that allegation is true or not, i know the fbi never investigated it. And what we know from today is that they never communicated with the irs Criminal Division that spent years investigating this, so there is two things that is happening here with the Oversight Committee, with respect to the president of the United States. There is the investigation of the biden corruption, and then theyre there is the investigation of the coverup, again, i want to thank you all for the work that you have done over the years. We appreciate that, the American People appreciate that, the taxpayers appreciate that. And we look forward to receiving the Additional Information through the ways and Means Committee, through the proper process, we continue our investigation. With that, and without objection, all members will have five legislative days, within which to submit materials and submit additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. If there is no further business with an objection, the committee stands adjourned. [silence] since 1979, in partnership with the cable industry, cspan has provided complete coverage of the halls of congress, from house and senate floors, two congressional hearings, target briefings, and committee meetings. Cspan gives you a front row seat to how issues are debated and decided. With no commentary, no interruptions, and completely unfiltered. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. Cspan is your under filtered field government, we are powered by these common knees, and more, including comcast,. Is about a Community Center . Now, it is way more than that. Comcast is partnering with 1000 Community Centers to create wifi enabled so students from low income families get the tools that they need to be ready for anything. Comcast supports cspan, as a public service, g