Transcripts For CSPAN3 Politics And Public Policy Today 20160602

Public policies that should reflect the definitive body of science that show significant positive Health Impacts that companion animals have on human health. The va says it doesnt have enough evidence to support Service Animals for veterans who have pts, we disrespectfully disagree and thats why we support hr4764. We believe there is significant Scientific Evidence to support the efficacy of service dogs for veterans who have pts. We funded the first systematic review on research of animal assisted gervention that was conducted at Purdue University dr. Fallonsal ma matter and it was published less than a year ago and what it found was preliminary evidence that animals provide unique elements to address pts symptoms and i think its also really important to note because mr. Diamond said whats the harm. This systematic review of published and Unpublished Research found no negative effects from any of these studies, so no harm was found in any of the research that we looked at. So, we think this supports the conclusion that service dogs for traumaer trauma survivors can affect depression and anxiety and social outcomes and sleep and quality of life and were currently funding a pilot study on the effects of service dogs on Mental Health and wellness on veterans with pts. Scientists are measuring functioning including symptoms of ptsd, depression, life and relationship satisfaction and quality of life in 137 military veterans diagnosed with ptsd who either have a service dog or who are waiting to receive one and those waiting to receive one are our scientific control group. So, the preliminary unpublished results indicate that military veterans with service dogs exhibit significantly lower overall ptsd symptoms and that means better ability to cope with flashbacks and anxiety attacks and less overall sleep disturbance and lower anxiety and depression and anger and higher levels of companionship and social integration and increased psychological wellbeing and higher levels of life cycle resilience and we have to wait for the final study to be published which we expect to happen later this year but we wanted to bring you the preliminary outcomes because theyre so encouraging and so important to the discussion today. I also urge the committee and the va to look broadly at Research Studies that really look at several key measures of Mental Health and wellbeing like depression, anxiety, stress, and social integration, all of which are associated with pts. My written testimony covers these in great detail and you can find even more studies in our database and thats why an organization like ours can be hopefully really helpful because were looking at the Broad Spectrum of research not just one little narrow slice of it and that Broad Spectrum of research is pretty definitive, you know, for example, were looking at whats happening at a persons brain when they interact with an animal, the level of oxytocin goes up and cortisol goes down and when fingers meet fur theres something really fantastic happening and i think weve heard about some of those specific examples today. You know, if you combine those scientifically documented therapeutic effects with the trained actions of a service dog you get a powerful combination. The americans with disabilities act recognizes service dogs for ptsd and their regulations and states are increasingly updating their definition of Service Animals. Just last year the state of florida passed a law to expand protection of Service Animal statutes to include traumatic brain injury and ptsd and inclusion allows veterans with a disability that may not be outwardly visible to have access to public accommodations with their service dogs. Sometimes the symptoms manifest themselves in public so while pets and emotional support animals can provide some of the benefits weve just been discussing its only a Trained Service dog that has full Public Access that can provide that animal assisted intervention whenever and wherever its really necessary for a veteran with ptsd. You know, what about the doctors on all this . We did a survey last year which showed that of 1,000 doctors which showed that 69 of them have worked with animals in hospitals, medical centers or medical malpractice and 88 of doctors saw improvement in a patients physical condition and 97 saw an improvement in a patients Mental Health condition as a result of animal assisted intervention, doctors are likely to be really supportive if we can get this Program Going and really willing participants as we provide service dogs to veterans with pts. So, i just want to conclude by saying there is a growing body of research that demonstrates widespread positive mental Health Impacts from the humananimal bond and we hope you and the va will take this broad evidence into consideration when shaping Public Health policy, both in relation to 4764 and beyond and i hope the members of the subcommittee and the va will rely on us as a resource. Thats what were here for, to be a Scientific Research for anyone who is interested in this. With pts affecting so many of our veterans we need to make sure that everyone has access to service dogs and hr4764 really is a great step in the right direction and thats why we fully support the legislation. So, mr. Chairman, Ranking Member lynch, members of the committee, i really want to thank you. I want to thank your hardworking staff and especially, mr. Chairman, thank you for your leadership on this issue and im happy to answer any questions you may have. I thank the witnesses. The chair now recognizes himself for five minutes. Dr. Fallon, so why does the va reject pairing a veteran suffering from pts with service dogs . We dont, mr. Chairman. Va is thrilled that service dogs help veterans. Its just as a large medical organization we have to rely on evidencebases medicine. Veteran population is very heterogenous, what helps one wont help all. Have any of the preliminary results pointed to by the witnesses at pursdupurdue, or a else, has that changed the thinking of the va . I would point out in the publication funded by habri dr. Ohare published in 2014, one of the main conclusions was that more Research Needs to be done. Thats right out of the paper. She also documented a number of deficiencies in literature. She also was quoted in a military times article that nonbiased Research Needed to be completed. This was in 2015. That said, so the vas approach to pts, is it fair to say that it relies heavily on pharmaceutic pharmaceuticals . Im a veterinarian. I couldnt but youre not familiar with how these veterans so basically youre here as a veterinarian. You dont have as much knowledge on just pts generally . No. Mr. Chairman, my role here is to update you on our study. I certainly would not pretend to be an expert in human clinical medicine. I think all the indications weve received from witnesses, from veterans are that, you know, you get counseling, you get drugs. I mean, thats kind of the two things. And thats effective for some people but there are other people and i think cole lyle is one that would say thats not good. Maybe you can answer this. But are there dangers associated with providing veterans opioids and other pharmaceuticals to deal with pts . I couldnt comment on that, mr. Chairman. Well, what would you say to that, mr. Diamond . If you look at the wikipedia entry for some of these opioids they clearly set down an entire list of side effects including increased suicide and in our opinion a dog is not going to cause any harm and yet we see every single month our classes, the warriors are transforming. They come in and theyre a wreck. Theyre overmedicated. Theyre lost. Theyre frightened just to have left their homes and we see them over three weeks working with our staff and service dog as the bond kicks in, that they become different people and theyre able to go out the front door again. Theyre able to go to a store again. Theyre able to go to the beach in florida again and these are things they could not do without the service dog. It opens the door and it lowers the barriers to getting other help. And they become more like the people they were before they went off to war. Mr. Feldman, the opioids, is there dangers and side effects to that . Is that accurate to say thats the case . I think pretty much everyone knows that. But i want to respond toing . Dr. Fallon said, you know, were here in washington and theres a lot of people that do regulations. Youre never going to neat a regulator that says we have enough regulations. Youll never meet a researcher who says we have enough research and, of course, we need to continue to do more research and thats what were doing right now, but when you add it up we think theres enough research to substantiate this program. Has there been any research that substantiates dangerous side effects with pairing a veteran with a service dog . No, sir, theres, in fact, an absence of that evidence. Cole lyle, have you had any negative side effects since youve been paired with your service dog . Thats a strong negative, mr. Chairman. So, i mean, i think we all agree that veteran suicides are a major problem. We need to do everything we can to prevent them and i think it makes sense that the va should explore all possible ways that this can be dealt with. And i understand that there may not, you know, people can say, well, we need more literature but, you know, we have enough evidence there that i think its something that is long overdue. Let me ask you this, mr. Feldman, how is the vas opposition to providing service dog harm veterans with pts . Well, i guess ill just speak as a citizen on this one. I just dont think the words veteran and waiting list sort of belong in the same sent edges. And while, you know, canines for warriors and other organizations like it are doing their best to put as many paws on the ground as they possibly can, the only way were really going to get this done is if we have the va providing that kind of support. What about, mr. Diamond, whats your judgment about the vas posture, how has that affected veterans . Its caused lives. Theres no question that there are thousands of veteran suicides that could have been prevented had they had the access to a service dog. And, cole lyle, i know youve been involved in advocacy on this issue. Youve gone through the halls of congress and folken wi espoken. Whats been the reception from members of congress on both sides of the aisle so far . Mr. Chairman, the response has been overwhelmingly supportive. We have bipartisan support on hr4764. This is not a partisan issue. Everybody knows that we need to take care of our veterans. Of course, we have different ideas about how to go about that. But i personally walking the halls of congress and speaking with democrats, republicans, conservatives, liberals, everybody agrees that this is a good idea and that we should do it. Youve done a very good job. I mean, as this bill progresses and we have success some of these guys on k street may be coming after you because of your success in working congress. Mr. Diamond, i think canines for warriors has done a great job. Its part of the district that im privileged to represent. And i know you guys have expanded. And youre there to help, but, i mean, you can only do so much. I mean, i wish you guys could just have unlimited numbers but, you know, so you guys are part of it, but i think we need to have a broader awareness here. But i appreciate all the witnesses for their testimony. And i thank you guys for coming and i now recognize the Ranking Member, mr. Lynch. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Just for the record, we had some hearings over in the senate on veterans and opioid addiction. And this is a 2015 hearing. And in response to questions around opioid disorder by senator joe donnelly of indiana, va indicated that about 68,000 veterans today had or in 2015, had opioid use disorders. Figure represents about 13 of the total population of veterans currently taking opioids according to the va, so thats a lot of veterans. 68,000 have opioid use disorders and thats 13 of the veterans on opioids. Thats a huge, huge problem. A couple of the witnesses have mentioned the costs. And we just had an opportunity to go to iraq last week, anbar province. And they had a couple of dogs there trained, but those are trained for bomb detection. And but i asked. I asked i asked the dod, i said, what does it cost for us to train a dog, in that context. And they said 55,000 each. But thats dod. You know, im not surprised that the private sector is doing it for a heck of a lot less. Its probably apples and oranges. They get trained for something particularly different. But, mr. Lyle, first of all, thank you for your Courageous Service to our country and youre helping veterans still. Is that what that 10,000 that you mentioned, is that what it cost you to yes, sir. Thats what it cost me to acquire kia, to pay for her training and all initial veterinarian care for her. I would note that 10,000 is that acquisition as well . Yes. Yeah. I would note that 10,000 is quite frankly cheap. Yeah. Yeah. For well, the life of the the life of the dog and the benefit that it conveys, youre right, absolutely. Well, the 10,000 i would pay it ten more times if i had to do it over again. Dont let the dod hear you say that. But it has paid dividends in how im able to overcome specific symptoms associated with the military experience, and i would recommend it highly to anybody who feels as though opioids and traditional therapies just arent working for them. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Diamond and mr. Feldman, mr. Diamond first, 17,000 square feet. Im not sure. You mentioned your facility down in florida. And obviously there are efficiencies of scale because youre training so many dogs. How many dogs do you probably train at a time . Right now we have capacity for about 30 dogs on our campus. In a couple months well have capacity for about 60. What do you see in terms of the cost you, you know, more professionally doing it 30 times at a whack, what do you see your costs on average . Were finally seeing economies of scale. Two years ago we were about in the 40s. This past year we were at about 32,000. This year 27,000 and we expect next year for the entire threeweek program plus all the, you know, lifetime, Wraparound Services to be about 22, 23,000, so weve finally hit economies of scale. And i would echo mr. Lyles comments, we think its a savings to the government with the reduction of use of prescription drugs and reduction of use of va services generally speaking and the Higher Quality of life, the human being you get at the end of it is a huge cost savings for the country. Whats the life fan, the average life fan of one of the dogs . Its between 8 and 12 years. 10 years. Yeah. Mr. Lyle, you got Something Else . Congressman lynch, i would note that 8 to 10 years, kia started helping me within weeks. Yeah. It does not take 8 to 12 years for these dogs to really assist veterans. No, no, no, i mean they are training throughout that ten years or so, so thats the service being rendered. You divide the cost of training and acquisition over the ten years, amortize it i guess. Mr. Feldman, you have anything else youd like to add . You mentioned cost. I can tell you that the pilot study looking at 137 veterans, which we announced the funding for last year and which will be completed next month and probably published later this year, that whole study cost upwards of 50,000 and were getting results, you know, within a twoyear period, so, yes, we need to do more research but it doesnt have to take that long or cost that much. Yeah, you know, you see the number of veterans that were treating with opioids. And theres just no happy ending there with the addiction rate we have. So, we got to be we got to try something different. My time as expired. Thank you for your indull jenningindull jennin indulgence. Thank you each for being here today. Dr. Fallon, i noticed that you served in the military. Thank you for your service. When you did serve you served in a veterinary capacity as i understand it. Is that correct . Yes, sir, i was a veterinary technician. In that time in your service, did you develop a bond with the animals under your care . Oh, absolutely sir, yes. Would you say now as a doctor of veterinary medicine, do you develop a nurturing bond with the animals in your care . Absolutely, sir. Do you see dangers associated with pairing service dogs with veterans . Well, as the chairman mentioned, i have seen problems with dogs particularly dogs that are not properly trained. For instance, we had those two children that were bitten which was a tragedy. It certainly didnt help those veterans. Also there are some things to take into consideration if a dog becomes sick, ends up with a chronic illness, there can be huge veterinary bills associated. The veteran can actually become quite depressed. Weve seen this anecdotally. How would you compare that to veterans, say, suffering from opioid abuse, harming their families, maybe their own children, maybe harming others around them and getting in a depressed state, which would you say would be more of a danger . I couldnt comment on that, sir. Im a veterinary. All of those things are terrible things, though. Do you personally think that veterans would berm a e rrm har their association with service dogs . You have a lot of experience. You served in the military. Dealing with animals and youre a doctor of veterinary medicine. Youve done Extensive Research and study i just want to know since you came as an expert testifying before congress, im just curious of your personal opinion, do you personally believe veterans would be harmed by their care and association with service dogs . Im reluctant to give my personal opinion because it could bias the study. I think thats telling. And i appreciate you for being loyal to veterans administration. But i think we have a greater responsibility as a nation to be loyal to our combat veterans and those that have suffered a great deal. Ive handled the flesh and blood of battle on many battlefields to include iraq and afghanistan as a combat infantryman ive dealt with a lot of the issues that were discussing here today. As a veterans advocate before entering a career in politics, i guess if you call it a career, ive even assisted and helped Place Service dogs with veterans and seen dramatic results. You know, whether that is a placebo effect or whether its reality, i can tell you that the results have been remarkable. But heres what i also know. Opioid abuse is a tragic indictment on the veterans administration. I would also tell you that on many veteran suicides i think are misdiagnosed. Its not unlikely for a soldier maybe to drink a beer, but now hou hes prescribed an oxycontin or percocet, he diminishes himself to a low state, he doesnt breathe anymore and the family finds him in the morning, why, gee, you know, russell didnt have any indication that he had any problems. In fact, he was talking about going fishing this weekend and now hes dead and they chalk him up as a suicide. Here we have an opportunity to do a great deal of good with very low risk and if the price of that is two dog bites, i think we can do that. And i also think that the expense of a dog is far cheaper than years and years and years of opioid addiction. We are legalizing heroin in this country and were using our veterans as the number one Scientific Lab of opioid abuse. It really angers me. And ive been prescribing percocet and oxycontin, floated around for several days. And ill tell you this, i quit cold turkey, too, on it because i would rather have a clear head and pain than deal with a drug addiction and depression. I think were not being intellectually honest here today and whether dr. Crow would like to give his, you know, professional opinion, if you cant speak to the medical side or yourself, give me one good reason why we should not implement this absent the already given opinion of further study. Dr. Crow, would you like to stand and just raise your right hand. Can you stand . Do you swear the testimony youre about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god . Okay. The witness answered in the affirmative. Thank you, mr. Chairman, the Ranking Member and the committee. You can do your microphone, sir. And thank you for being here today. I push this . Okay. Thank you very much for the question. First of all, i think were mistakenly confusing a couple of issues, opioids are not used to treat ptsd. A lot of folks with ptsd also have chronic pain conditions and they may have started opioids to treat the pain. But opioids are not used by va to treat ptsd. We also monitor prescribing practices and send in experts to facilities where we think theres some mispractice going on in an attempt to correct it. We also as you may know we have the opioid rescue kits that now are being put in the hands of every veteran who has been prescribed opioids. This is also a very personal issue for me. My sister died of an unintended opioid overdose, so i take this very seriously. But its not part of our ptsd discussion. Well, and i appreciate that. And thank you, sir, for your insight. Before you do your next question, can you just state your full name for the record. Dr. Chris crowe. Okay. Thank you. And your title . Senior Mental Health consultant and liaison to the Defense Centers of excellence for Psychological Health at tpi. Thank you. And i appreciate your patience with being put on the spot, but i understand you did come here as well today. Look, this is a real issue. I dont believe anybody sitting out here or up here doesnt have concern and care to do the right things. But would you also in your professional opinion acknowledge that those that deal more than likely with ptsd issues are also liable to be suffering from some sort of pain due to their service . So, these two are associated together, would you agree with that . Not necessarily, you know, i think they cooccur in many people. Folks who have been deployed, you know, have many opportunities for injury and come back with lots of musculoskeletal pain. Those also tend to be folks who have been exposed to trauma and may develop posttramatic stress disorder. But opioids are never used to treat ptsd. Well, and i will take you at your word for that, but i will also, you know, absolutely put it to you that people suffering from ptsd are often drugged in a great deal of medications, you know, with a basket load of issues and problems and being good soldiers or sailors or airmen or marines, they take their medications, they follow their doctors orders. Well, mr. Chairman, ive exceeded my time, but i would like to say these programs theres far more evidence that they work than they dont and theres an awful lot of evidence that we are not doing a very good job with our treatment of ptsd and that we have a lot of veteran suicides, i believe, personally, just from observation, i only come as a combat veteran. Im not a doctor. Ive just fought for a living. And so what i will tell you is we are not meeting those types of issues, and we are trying to drug our veterans, send them off to some clinic, rather than get them engaged inning . Productive. And with your indulgence, thank you, mr. Chairman, i yield back my time. The gentlemans time has now expired and the chair recognizes the gentleman from georgia for five minutes and well have dr. Fallon come back and resume his spot on the witness stand. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. Dr. Fallon, do you have any idea how the va is recruiting qualified veterans for the study . The veteran participants, sir . The folks that are correct. Yes, sir. Theyre recruited through each of the three medical centers, through flyers and presentations to Mental Health clinicians. Okay. Is there currently a waiting list of qualified veterans who would like to participate . There is a waiting list at one of our sites, the portland, oregon, site because weve had particular problems in recruiting qualified dog trainers for that site. However, we now have one trainer that has that is working now. How large is the waiting list . I cannot say for sure. I would say its probably in the range of maybe 20 people perhaps. And this is at one facility or one facility, yes, sir. Okay. So, are you saying that the personnel at Va Medical Centers are aware of this study and are actively engaged in informing veterans of the potential of having a service dog . Yes, i would definitely say that. Its a very popular topic of interest with our veterans. Does the va currently have any way to gauge the demand for the service dogs . We do not, sir. We do not have a method of gauging demand for service dogs. Is that under consideration . That would be outside of my purview, sir. I couldnt say. Mr. Diamond, let me come to you. How are qualified veterans referred to your organization . Weve never advertised for a veteran to come to our organization. They find us through wordofmouth through the very tight veteran community. But when the veteran applies to us we have a 22page application that we do, interviews, criminal background checks, we do a thorough vetting process so by the time the veteran comes to our campus perhaps a year after they apply we know a bevy about them and are ready to bring them into our program. So, you dont do any advertising per se, its all wordofmouth . Absolutely. If we advertised we would get inundated. Were pushing a twoyear wait list now. Thats my point. Thats where i was going. So, the va doesnt seem to have a whole lot of information here, of course, its not been their program, but you are actively involved in providing service dogs to veterans and you have a twoyear waiting list. How many i mean, do you have any way of gauging what the need is . I wish we had the good measure. And since im under oath im not going to venture a guess. But i do know this for sure, that the number of veterans that are referred to us from the va, because a va treating physician says i dont have anything else to help you is increasing every single day. Sure. Absolutely. Mr. Lyle, let me ask you and, first of all, thank you for your service, for your testimony, both are powerful, and we deeply and in a heartfelt way say thank you for what you have done for our country. How did you find out that service dogs were an option for pts . So, i actually had a personal friend of mine who had a service dog that he also had to acquire on his own and train. Im not quite sure which organization he received his dog well, he got his dog trained. But i knew that that was something that was an option that veterans could utilize. And then when i went out to organizations specifically i went to organizations in texas because thats where im currently living, i got pretty much the same result that wait times were at least a year. I didnt feel as though i had that time to wait. Okay. So, your introduction came through a personal friend. Thats correct. Okay. Mr. Diamond, let me come back to you and my time is almost up. Twofold question, do you find that veterans struggle with affording service dogs as a general rule . And how does your organization enable them to pair up . Two pieces to that. The first is that some of our veterans have reported back to us that they would rather make personal sacrifices than to not have to forgo having a service dog, that they do struggle, theyre on fixed incomes and, therefore, they do have difficulty paying for it. Most of the veterans that we get could not independently pay to get a service dog out on their own. So, weve made a lot of partnerships with our corporate supporters, for example, bayer health has put together a number of veterans to get Free Health Care for the dogs and were working with pet stores to get free pet food for the dogs we do what we can to make it free or almost free for the veteran, but the overwhelming message from them is they would forgo their own personal comfort to make sure that they have a service dog. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank the gentleman. Mr. Lyle, what was your experience with the drugs . How did you get prescribed by the va . Well, again, mr. Chairman, when i took the post Deployment Health assessment which was the preliminary what they give you. Im not sure the timeline, but there is a timeline and the vas required to give that once you return stateside. I had then went to a va facility in ft. Worth and tried to use their system. I eventually met with a psychologist at the va hospital in ft. Worth and was prescribed the sleep aids and the antidepressants. And what was why did they do that . Was it because of your symptoms . Correct. So, when i returned, i was suffering from recurring nightmares and i would have acute anxiety attacks. I also just had difficulty with close interpersonal relationships. As id mentioned previously, one of the side effects that goes largely unnoticed as a result of posttramatic stress, theres a high divorce rate amongst military members. But that also had affected me. It wasnt the direct cause of the divorce, but it definitely did not help in any way, shape, or form. So, it was affecting my personal relationships, the nightmares specifically, kia is trained to recognize when im having a nightmare and she will jump up in bed and lick my face to wake me up, so thats one of the ways that she has assisted me and my symptoms and i would further note that a dog can give you a sense of purpose that a pill will just not ever do. In the sense that there were many days i didnt want to get out of bed. I didnt have really anything to do, like, as i said, i didnt have a job at the time, wasnt currently enrolled in school, and i didnt have any reason to. But a service dog needs to be taken outside, they need to be fed, they give you a reason to get up and to be productive on a daytoday basis and give you that small sense of purpose again that you can grow on. And, again, i reiterate that thats something that pills just did not do for me. We had testimony before that this is noting . The va is doing, providing drugs, i guess do you disagree with what was said in your case . Could you repeat the question. There was a previous witness that was not something that drugs for pts is not something that the va does, but in your instance is that what they did or well, my issues as a result of posttramatic stress were as i said recurring nightmares and i got a sleep aid as a result of those nightmares, so i would disagree with that. Okay. And, mr. Diamond, so youre i mean, the bill that we have if youre down to 22,000 thats even more than what were doing so thats good. So, youre confident that youll be able to continue to reduce the costs of each dog . Yeah. I would hate for our donors to hear that, but, yes, we have hit economies of scale sufficiently that our efficiencies are in the low 20s for next year. Okay. Good. Mr. Feldman, what do you i mean, i guess what is your recommendation for making the case . Youre familiar with the research thats going on. What more in congress do we need to be finding and presenting, or do you think that theres enough facts already in existence to justify moving forward . Well, were continuing to do research, and well come back and share the published research that we gave you a preview of today. A Pilot Program as youve written into this bill is a really good way to go, because youve built in some evaluation, youve built in a report on that program as a part of that legislation, so its a chance to continue studying but also to help a lot of folks, so thats why we support it. Great. Well, look, at the end of the day, there has been a lot of anecdotal evidence. Theres some evidence coming out in some of the literature, but heres the thing, i could understand why that would be a cautionary tale if there was somehow a negative side effect to this. But theres not. So, the worstcase scenario that were talking about is weve made some veterans happy with service dogs as companions thats, like, the worstcase scenario and obviously if theres a positive effect, youre actually giving veterans a sense of purpose. And i believe saving lives. And ill just tell you, since weve been involved in this issue ive had multiple veterans come up to me and tell me that they would have probably committed suicide but for being paired with a service dog and so its not often people look you in the eye and tell you that they probably would have done that and so it really, really registers when you hear that. Mr. Lyle . And, mr. Chairman, i would also note that just being a veteran, any veteran, will probably tell you that they have any veteran of iraq or afghanistan will probably tell you that they either have a friend or a friend of a friend that has committed suicide and has been affected by this suicide epidemic. This study that was done by the va i will also note back in 2013 that indicated the 22 veteran a day average committed suicide, that study was based on 21 states. So, the number tragically is higher than 22 veterans a day. That was just a side note. But i will also say since ive been doing this and, you know, i have been talking to members of congress, friends of mine, specifically in texas, because the cost barriers are so high to getting your own service dogs and many veterans join the military to get that family, that sense of community, when they get out, they dont have it anymore, they dont have the Family Support that i had to financially support their endeavor, and then they get told that there are wait times over a year and they dont feel like they have that time so they go out and they just get a dog. And i will note as i believe it was mr. Russell who had congressman russell who had said earlier that just being around a dog, dr. Fallon as a veterinarian, has said that hes made personal connections with the animals hes been around. I would argue that if you dont think or believe that a dog can be therapeutic and a service dog specifically can treat certain symptoms specific to their posttramatic stress, then you probably have never owned or been around a dog. Did you want to go real quick . I got a minute to recognize mr. Herd but if youve got to go ill recognize you. Ill recognize the gentleman from massachusetts. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The way this is structured under the chairmans bill, the key relationship will be the va and the contractor, mr. Diamond and canines for warriors or any other group. The 2016 va report said that there was a problem with the va not getting out to the contractor location where the training was going on or to the home of the veteran with the dog. And that broke down. Are we able to cure that defect in further studies, in existing study . Yes, Ranking Member. Absolutely. The problem was we were relying on the service dog organization, trainers, to interact with our veterans and that resulted in his not getting timely information about problems that had developed with the dog pairs which is now we have hired our own dog trainers. Okay. Thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from texas, mr. Herd, for five minutes. And the votes have started but weve got 13 minutes and so mr. Hrd and if theres other questions we may have time for other members, too. Thank you, chairman, and id like to thank the distinguished gentleman from florida for having this panel and id like to thank mr. Lyle for being here. Hes from my alma mater, texas a m university, aggies, which has a lot of history with working from animals to improving humans, you have searchandrescue teams and you have a Student Organization called aggie guide dogs and service dogs which promotes the use of service dogs and were part of the text vet network which includes the operation canine. And, mr. Lyle, first i want to thank you for your service and dedication for the safety of americans. As a former officer in the cia, i had the honor of serving alongside members of the military and am familiar with the sacrifices that you and your family make. And i know this is a lifechanging experience and has inspired you to give back to the community, and i appreciate you for doing this. My first questions, though, are actually to mr. Fallon. Has the va reached out to any other organizations conducting similar studies . After the difficulties we had with the pilot study, we did site visits the pilot study from 2006 . The pilot study you started in 2011, sir. And was suspended finally in 2012. We realized we had to change our study protocol. We actually visited major organizations like canine companions for independence and my question is actually lets start before that. Why did the va decide to reinvent the wheel rather than relying on some, you know, other organizations that have a history in doing this kind of thing . Well, for the pilot, sir, we relied upon the organizations themselves, all of which professed to be very experienced and to be able to produce highquality dogs. And unfortunately that did not turn out to be true. I dont even know where to go. Theres so many questions, you know, why not reach out to dod and leverage some of the experience that they have . They have some worldclass trainers and they have worldclass activities using dogs for all kinds of services . Admittedly we were not familiar enough with the service Dog Community when we embarked on the pilot study. Theres no questions that weve made mistakes. Say that again. We were not adequately familiar with the service Dog Community and the pitfalls in that community when we embarked on our pilot study. Theres no question about that. So, how much money did the va spend in phase one to develop veterinary standards which ive been told are no longer in use . Im not sure the exact figure. It would be somewhere above 1 million, though, pilot. Above 1 million or above 10 million . 1 million, sir. The 12 million is for the entire phase one and two together. Could that money have been saved if the va had initially adopted dods veterinary standards . No, sir, it wasnt just the veterinary standards. There were training standards involved and also followup by the organizations and dog trainers, all those things ended up to be a major problem. Youre the chief veterinary medical officer, correct . Yes, sir. What proposals have you suggested up the chain on how to make sure we incorporate this into the va . Into the study, sir, or into the very into the va so more veterans can get access to this care. Weve been directed by congress to do this research and thats my focus. Whats the best next action . To complete the study successfully. And whats the best next action there . Whats the next step that you need to take in order to make sure this gets completed . Well, were doing them now, sir. We have retooled and learned from our mistakes. Whens it is going to be done . Pardon me . When is it going to be done . We expect the Data Collection to be complete by late 2018 and the paper will be published thereafter. Mr. Lyle, i have a little bit less than a minute but you can go over if you so need, hopefully the chairman indulges my prerogative, anything that has not been discussed during this hearing today that you think is important to get out there . Well, thank you, congressman hurd. I think its important to understand and to reiterate what i said, that a service dog not only will combat specific symptoms like kai does for me in waking me up from nightmares, et cetera, et cetera, but there is an effect that they give to you of providing a sense of purpose. And when veterans get out, they lose their military community. They lose their chain of command. They get their mission, their purpose ripped away from them very, very quickly. And theres nonprofits have done admirable work in trying to assist veterans in transitioning but theyre still struggling and i think the main reason is that they lose their sense of purpose and they lose their mission. They dont have anything driving them anymore. And i think a service dog also provides that. I will just further note very quickly that ive spent the last year doing this, trying to raise awareness about the issue. Talk to members of congress. Have been received very well and its taken me a year to do this funding all of this myself. We dont have until late 2018 to have this study completed and then understand the results and then try to have a program initiated at that point. 22 veterans a day are committing suicide. Anybody that is okay with that number i wouldnt say that anybody at the va is okay with that number. But we have something that we know works. We have evidence that works now. And with 22 veterans a day committing suicide, i returned to what i said in my opening statement, that is unconscionable that we dont explore alternative methods of treatment. Mr. Lyle, thank you. Mr. Diamond, thank you for your service. Mr. Chairman, i yield back the time i do not have. The gentlemans time has expired. Id like to thank all of our wnti witnesses for taking their time to appear before us. Theres no further business. Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. Appreciate having you here. Thank you. Appreciate it. Good to see you. Good to see you, man. Thank you. Thank you. Good to see you. Thank you for coming. Coming up tonight here on cspan3, its American History tv and a look into the Church Committees 1976 report on cia, irs and nsa intelligence activities. The committee chaired by idaho Senator Frank Church found those agencies had abused their power under political pressure from the white house and spied on americans, opened peoples mail and unfairly audited taxpayers. American history tv on the Church Committee tonight on cspan3 beginning at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. 30 years ago today, gaveltogavel u. S. Senate coverage began on cspan2. Tonight well take a look at 30 years of Televised Senate floor proceedings and how the senate has adapted to tv. The senate is, as i said, its a 21stcentury institution conceived in the 18th century, and its trying to make the best use of the technology in the 21st century to remain true to its 18thcentury conception. It really its a difficult thing to do, to forge compromise. Everybody has to give a little when you forge compromise, and thats not photogenic. And so, to a certain extent, the cameras both reveal the greatness of the senate but also conceal it by not being able to show these kinds of discussions taking place. And you can see our entire look at 30 years of u. S. Senate coverage on cspan2 tonight on cspan st cspan starting at 8 00 p. M. Eastern. Madam secretary, we proudly give 72 of our delegate votes to the next president of the United States. The senate commerce, science and Transportation Committee recently held a hearing with witnesses from google, General Motors, autoparts maker delphi and Rideshare Service lyft to discuss the future of selfdriving cars, what they mean for safety, privacy and auto regulation. South dakota senator john thune chairs this hearing. Its about two hours. Good afternoon, everyone. I want to thank everybody for coming today as we discuss Automated Vehicles and the boundless opportunities that these technologies offer. Americans love their cars. Since the automobile first rolled off the Assembly Line in river rouge, michigan, cars in america have offered independence, mobility and adventure. Now profound changes are coming to our roads, Technological Advancements are progressing at a rapid pace, and fully selfdriving cars will be here sooner than we think. We are facing an opportunity to expand the options for transportation by car while also making it smarter and safer. Yet, technological challenges remain and people will need to become comfortable with the idea of being passengers in their own cars. We all like that feeling of control when we hold the Steering Wheel. But perhaps the greatest hurdle to the deployment of these vehicles may be a Regulatory Environment with a patchwork of state and federal laws unable to keep pace with these evolving technologies. Everything from Driver Assist functions like lane departure warnings to completely Autonomous Vehicles will transform transportation and mobility, profoundly affecting safety issues that have confronted Society Since the invention of the car. In 2014, 32,675 americans lost their lives due to car accidents. More than 90 of these tragedies are linked to human error, driver choices, intoxication and distraction. Automated vehicles have the potential to reduce that number dramatically. Unlike human drivers, Automated Vehicles dont get tired, drunk or distracted. Combating drunk driving has been a particular priority for me. South dakotas 24 7 sobriety program, which works to change behavior through roundtheclock monitoring, is one successful program, but im eager to hear how Autonomous Vehicles could further reduce accidents due to drunk driving. In addition to helping reduce accidents on american roads, Autonomous Vehicles promise to improve the quality of life for Older Americans and members of the disabled community. No longer will a lack of accessible transportation hinder opportunities for employment or community involvement. As americas population ages, families may no longer have to struggle with the difficult decision of when to take the keys away from a mom or a dad. Automated vehicles could also and one of the most frustrating parts of modern urban life, the traffic jam. This alone would improve the quality of life for many commuters with more time for families as commutes shorten. And if the car does all of the driving, time spent in a car could be productive, such as reading work emails, checking the box score from last nights game or catching up on the highlights on sportscenter. Im speaking of some of my own pasttimes here. With no more gridlock, traffic will flow more smoothly and efficiently. Even fuel economys likely to improve, since Automated Vehicles will be more efficient than human drivers. These advancements also have the potential to reshape communities. Currently, parking garages and surface lots take up onethird of the land in cities. Imagine a technology that will revolutionize parking as we know it, allowing that land to be reclaimed and repurposed. To implement this future, we need to challenge ourselves to overcome the 20thcentury conception of what a car must have side and rearview mirrors, a brake pedal, a Steering Wheel, and even the concept of a licensed human driver. Because so much is possible, we must be careful not to stymie innovation because of a lack of imagination. Federal and state governments may need to rethink how they regulate and license vehicles for the future. We must ensure that the United States remains the cradle of innovation and that we continue to lead the way in the development and deployment of Automated Vehicles. In addition, questions regarding liability, insurance, privacy, security and infrastructure need answers. These arent small things, but none of them is insurmountable. And if congress, the department of transportation, industry and stakeholders work together, we will see all of the benefits promised. This morning the committee had the great opportunity to see some of this technology in action when we brought selfdrive to capitol hill. Continental, volkswagen, bmw and tesla provided vehicles that gave us firsthand experience to see what the future may hold in a preview to the discussions at this hearing. I want to thank them for making those vehicles available. This afternoon were joined by witnesses representing google yex, General Motors, delphi and lyft with direct stakes in Automotive Technology and we are joined by dr. Cummings from duke university, a distinguished aviator and returning witness before our committee. Dr. Cummings, thank you for your service to our country. We look forward to hearing from all of our witnesses to learn more about what theyre doing in this space and their vision for the future. But before we hear from our witnesses, some will also, by the way, play a short video, assuming the technology works. Im not sure when we got under way that it did. But before we get to that, first up, senator nelson. Thank you, mr. Chairman. So, im in the tesla and were coming back across the Anacostia River and getting up on the bridge, then to get on to the ramp on to 395, and im instructed in the drivers seat, engage the autonomous switch. I click it twice. Take your hands off the wheel. And so, all of a sudden, the car is speeding up. And they say it automatically will go with the flow of the vehicles in front and back. But now we are approaching the onramp on to 395, and it is a sharp turn, and the vehicle is still speeding up. And they said, trust the vehicle. And as we approach the concrete wa wall, my instincts could not resist, and i grabbed the wheel, touched the brake and took over manual control. I said, what would have happened . They said, if you had left your hands off the wheel, it would have made that sharp turn and come on around. So, im here to tell you glad youre hear. [ laughter ] that im glad i grabbed the wheel. But we know if this is working as it apparently is, then there are going to be many lives that could be saved by prevent iing preventible accidents. Because what if you suddenly looked down at your cell phone, and all of a sudden, the car in front of you stops or the one comes over into your lane . Things like efficiency and productivity could also increase considerably. Underserved communities without reliable means of transportation could finally be integrated into the national economy. In so many states, this technology could be particularly beneficial for seniors and those with disabilities. But we have to have the technology right so the selfdriving cars can live up to their promise. So, in the federal government, we have a Critical Role to make sure that the Regulatory Environment and the Legal Environment in which American Business does business is able to develop and manufacture these vehicles. And it also means that were going to have to, in our case, exercise responsible oversight. And as weve seen in this committee on other subjects, such as the takata airbags and the gm ignition switch recall, individual components of vehicles with defects can suddenly snowball into major problems. So with an autonomous car, the stakes are all the more going to be high. You can imagine in this world of Cyber Security and cyber attacks, imagine what would happen to Autonomous Vehicles to get hacked while theyre out on the road. One small defect could end up in a massive safety crisis. And if the problem comes up, manufacturers and regulators are going to have to get together and quickly find a solution. No more coverups, no more head in the sand approaches to safety. If were going to avoid the tragedies, weve got to be johnny on the spot. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank you, senator nelson. They didnt let me get behind the wheel, so i know i suppose they figured if you could navigate a spaceship, you could probably navigate a driverless vehicle. Well, it was a terrestrial challenge. I want to ask unanimous consent to submit for the record statements from the National Council on disability, the Global Automakers Association and a letter from the global automakers and the Auto Alliance to secretary fox at the department of transportation. So, those will be included without objection. We have before us today a great panel. I want to welcome them here. First is dr. Chris urmson, director of selfdriving cars for google x. Mr. Mike abelson, Vice President strategy and Global Portfolio planning, General Motors company. Mr. Glen devos, who is the Vice President Global Engineering and Services Electronics and safety at delphi automotive, mr. Joseph okpaku, who is the Vice President of Government Relations for lyft, and as i mentioned earlier, dr. Mary missing louise cummings, director of humans and autonomy lab and duke robotics at duke university. So, welcome to all of you. Thank you for participating today. Well start on my left and your right with dr. Urmson and then proceed as each of you complete. And if you could, at least as close as possible, stay to the fiveminute time allotment so we have ample time for members to ask questions, because i think well have good participation today. So, thank you all for being here. Dr. Urmson. Thank you, chairman thune, Ranking Member nelson and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me to testify today about the potential for selfdriving cars to improve the lives of people everywhere. My name is chris urmson, and ive been leading the Technology Development of googles selfdriving car Program Since 2009. The video we would have shown earlier captures many of the reasons why were excited about this technology. Nhtsa estimates that 38,000 people were killed on americas roads last year and 94 of accidents involve human error. Selfdriving cars can help us change that. Not only could our roads be a lot safer, but selfdriving cars could bring everyday destinations to new opportunities within reach of those who otherwise would have been excluded by their inability to drive a car. We believe that to actually realize all those benefits and many more, you need cars that are fully selfdriving. That is, the car must be designed to do all the work so that the occupants are not expected to control the vehicle at any time. Were now testing selfdriving prototype vehicles in three different states, and over the last seven years weve driven over 1. 4 million miles in autonomous mode. All of our testing using real complex scenarios helps us analyze, evaluate and improve how our cars perform. Today congress has a huge opportunity to help ensure that selfdriving cars can be safely deployed at scale. We currently face a growing patchwork of state laws and regulations on selfdriving cars that has the potential to become unworkable. In the past two years, 23 states have introduced 53 pieces of legislation that affect Autonomous Vehicles, all of which include different approaches and concepts. If every state is left to go its own way, it would be extremely impractical to operate an Autonomous Vehicle across state boundaries. Were grateful for the department of transportation and secretary fox for their vision and commitment to helping the deployment of selfdriving cars. Nhtsa has issued helpful clarifications to existing safety standards, but we must remember that current regulations were written at a time when the idea that a car could drive itself was Science Fiction and nhtsa has indicated new applications may be needed Going Forward. Congressional action is needed to keep pace. We propose Congress Moves swiftly to provide the secretary of transportation with targeted new authority to approve lifesaving innovations. This new authority would allow the deployment of Innovative Safety technologies that meet or exceed the level of safety required by existing federal standards while ensuring a prompt and transparent process. We look forward to working with this committee, d. O. T. , and nhtsa to ensure that the type of new authority can effectively achieve the safety and innovation benefits of fully selfdriven cars. We also believe it will help continue u. S. Leadership on this technology for the years ahead. The importance of getting selfdriven Car Technology safely into peoples hands is best summed up by those who need it most. During a recent california dmv workshop to discuss the technology, regulators heard from justin hartford, a man who is legally blind. Justin said, what this is really about is who gets to access transportation and commerce and who doesnt, and im frankly tired of people with disabilities not being able to access commerce. Our team at google believes that selfdriving cars can ultimately remove these transportation barriers from our society. Thank you for your help in creating a path for this technology and for your time and consideration today. Thank you, dr. Urmson. Mr. Abelson. Good afternoon. Thank you, chairman thune, Ranking Member nelson, and Committee Members for the opportunity to speak to you on Autonomous Vehicles and the way they could improve the safety, convenience and effectiveness of our 21stcentury transportation system. My position inside General Motors is Vice President of portfolio planning and strategy. And in that position, i spend a lot of time thinking about what will happen to our industry over time and what opportunities there are and how to position General Motors to take advantage of those opportunities. As you may know, General Motors has been very active in the autonomous space with several recent announcements. All of these are aimed at our goal of earning customers for life by redefining the nature of personal mobility and extending our relationship with our customers beyond the car. There are four principal areas to this initiative autonomous driving, connectivity, electrication and ridesharing. However, all of these are built on the same bedrock principle our top priority must be safety. Id like to focus my few minutes today on autonomy. Gm has a long history with Autonomous Vehicle research, and as our recent announcements have shown, is striving the lead in automating technologies. From our partnership with Carnegie Mellon university, which in 2007 won the darpa challenge by autonomously covering 70 miles at an average speed of 14 Miles Per Hour to our acquisition last week of Cruise Automation, gm is rapidly redefining personal mobility. Many of todays active Safety Technologies, such as fullspeed range Adaptive Cruise control and lanekeeping assist, are steps towards autonomous driving. We are deploying these technologies across more of our portfolio and are also bringing additional safetyenhancing technologies, like forward collision warning, to vehicles at all price points, including inxent expensive models, such as the chevrolet spark. Gm expects to be the first automaker to bring a vehicletovehicle Safety Technology to market late this year in the 2017 cadillac cts. This will enable vehicles to communicate important safety and mobility information to one another. Super cruise, a feature that allows handsfree and feetfree driving on the highway will also debut in the 2017 cadillac ct6. It incorporates many of the camera, gps, mapping and radar technologies that will be crucial to increasing automation in the future. Additionally, our recent investment in the Ridesharing Company lyft complements gms expertise in Autonomous Vehicles by providing a ridesharing platform to support potential deployment programs. Our acquisition last week of Cruise Automation is another important milestone in our work to deploy Autonomous Vehicles. Founded in 2013, cruise has moved quickly to test the technology in San Franciscos very challenging city environment. The deep Software Talent and rapid capability when combined with gms resources and expertise will further accelerate our development of Autonomous Vehicle technology. These efforts are spearheaded by a recently formed Vice President led Engineering Team focusing on accelerating the deployment of Autonomous Vehicles. But make no mistake, our focus will be on doing this safety. We believe the next logical step toward public availability of the Autonomous Vehicles will be controlled ridesharing projects, such as those we are planning with lyft. These projects will allow the public to safely experience Autonomous Vehicles without making a significant financial investment. This could speed Public Acceptance of Autonomous Vehicles while at the same time protect Public Safety through the ownership and control of the vehicle fleet by the vehicle manufacturer. This style of deployment also encourages partnership with local and state governments, which will help ensure full Public Benefit of the technology. In closing, gm enthusiastically supports policy initiatives to accelerate the development and adoption of safe, highlevel automation through realworld projects. We look forward to working with congress and nhtsa to spur development of these technologies as safely and rapidly as possible. I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Abelson. Mr. Devos. Good afternoon, and thank you, chairman thune, Ranking Member nelson and members of the committee on commerce, science and transportation, for giving me the opportunity to testify on behalf of delphi automotive. My name is glen devos, im Vice President of engineering and services at delphi. Were a hightech company that integrates safer, greener and more connected solutions for the automotive sector. We spend more than 1. 7 billion annually in Engineering Development activities and operate major manufacturing and Technology Centers across the United States. Delphis portfolio places us at the center of vehicle evolution and innovation, making products smarter and safer as well as more powerful and efficient. I would like to start by thanking the committee for informing through consumers where stickers act into the fast act, which was signed into law last year. In particular, id like to thank the bill sponsors, senator heller and marquee, as well as chairman thune and Ranking Member nelson for their helpful effort to get stickers enacted. With the incorporation of stickers, the fast act will speed the adoption of advanced driving assistance systems through increased consumer demand. The adoption of adas systems is a critical step on the road to Automated Vehicles, since those same systems will enable automotive driving are part of todays active safety systems. As noted in our video, which we were unfortunately not able to show, last year we made a historic 15state, 3,400mile journey from San Francisco to new york city with a car that for 99 of that driving time was driven without human input. The driving took place during Daylight Hours and had an engineer behind the wheel to assume control if there was a situation where the vehicle could not clearly navigate on its own. The vehicle performed flawlessly. It was able to make complex decisions necessary to drive safely across the country, while unlike human drivers, remaining alert the entire time one of the primary takeaways from the crosscountry drive is that we have Technology Available today in the consumer marketplace that can dramatically reduce deaths and injuries on our roads. These technologies are not just lifesavers, but as demonstrated by that drive, the Building Blocks for automated cars of the future. This is true both from a Technology Development as well as from a consumer adoption standpoint. As a recent aaa survey confirmed, the technology will help driver acceptance of the autonomy. The inclusion of stickers and the fast act was a step towards adoption of adas. Nhtsa has responded and announced its intention to modernize the new Car Assessment Program to have the technology for a fivestar rating. This is great progress and should greatly improve the safety in vehicles at every price point. It is critical we capture these safety improvements quickly. Sti stickers has them approve the cap rule at the time of enactment and it is important this timeline does not slip. In an automated future, we need to be able to communicate with not just the driver or the owner but also the surrounding environment, knowing when Traffic Signals are going to change and where vehicle traffic is heaviest, not only adds to the safety of the vehicle but allows the cars to be driven or to drive themselves more efficiently. Keeping the necessary spectrum both available and free from harmful interference is critical as vtov or the dedicated systems that make it possible are rolled out. It is important to consider the manner in which existing vehicles can be retrofitted to accommodate dsrc requirements. There are approximately 262 million Passenger Vehicles registered in the u. S. Roadways with an average vehicle age of 11 1 2 years. Unless retrofitting is built into the planning process, the rollout of dsrc may take deca s decades. In addition to supporting technologies needed to enable Automated Vehicles, congress and the administration and state governments will need to provide the flexibility and the Regulatory Framework necessary to enable driverless Car Development and deployment. Lets see. One of the primary im sorry. Thats the hazard of not numbering the pages. Or the hazard of not having my reading glasses. Finally, as we talk about Cyber Security, delphis keenly aware of the Cyber Threats associated with todays connected vehicles and taking measures that will enable us safe and secure driving experience. We are participating in the auto isac activities to further improve Cyber Security threat to awareness and coordination across the country. Delphis dedicated information and Technology Resources focused on Cyber Security matters and we are working with the oem community to ensure we meet their requirements and leverage open source and industryaccepted Information Security protocols. Thank you again for your time and the opportunity to testify before the committee today. Thank you, mr. Devos. Mr. Okpaku. Chairman thune, Ranking Member nelson and members of the committee, good afternoon. My name is joseph okpaku, Vice President of relations for lyft. Thank you for allowing me to testify on this exciting and important topic. My fellow panelists require all the components necessary for the Autonomous Vehicles. You have the auto manufacturers with the expertise in designing and building Autonomous Vehicles. You have the Parts Manufacturers whose products will be vital to making these cars run. You have the best engineering minds in the world who have made it possible for these cars to be safer than human drivers. And you have lyft, a company perfectly suited to bring this technology to cities and consumers all across the country. There are at least two other equally important components that will determine the future of Autonomous Vehicles. The first is the interaction of everyday people with these new vehicles. And the second is the much more unpredictable interface of the government with this entirely new transportation resource. Lyft has unique experience in these two areas, and this is where ill focus my testimony. Lyft launched four years ago as the First Digital platform that uses a smartphone to allow people to give other people a ride in their personal vehicle. Lyfts gehoal was to encourage people to give up their own vehicles and instead use the empty seats in a neighbors car. In order to accomplish this, we knew certain critical factors needed to be addressed. First, it had to be safe. Extensive background checks for drivers were a must, followed by unprecedented transparency and accountability for everybody involved in the ride. Innovations that include realtime consumer feedback and automatically emailed digital receipts with the ride route, driver name and driver picture are a key part of the reason for the rapid adoption of lyft. Its also why 30 of our drivers and the majority of riders are women. Second, the service had to be efficient for drivers to participate. It is easy for a driver to apply to drive on the platform. They can initiate the process from their smartphone. But difficult for them to qualify. Third, for consumers, we knew that a vehicle had to arrive within minutes of pressing a button for it to feel like a Good Alternative to grabbing your own keys and driving your own car. In a few short years, these key principles have enabled an entirely new Transportation Industry to evolve out of preexisting and largely idle resources. By any measure, it is remarkable, and it wouldnt have happened if it wasnt safe, affordable and convenient. This rapid evolution of the Transportation Industry has clearly demonstrated that consumers are increasingly willing to give up the Steering Wheel and instead have a vehicle arrive at the push of a button. One recent statistic from the university of michigan clearly underscores this shift in consumer priorities. In 1983, 46 of 16yearolds obtained a drivers license. In 2014, that figure dropped to 24 . Thats a 50 change in something that i was 100 certain that i wanted more than anything else when i was 16 years old. Something very real and fundamental is shifting here. We are on the doorstep of another evolutionary leap in transportation and technology where concepts that could once only be imagined in Science Fiction are on the verge of becoming a reality. The partnership between lyft and General Motors is based upon the knowledge that Autonomous Vehicles can bring enormous benefits in road safety, congestion and public spending on parking infrastructure, just to name a few. This partnership is also founded on the shared understanding that the fastest way to bring these benefits of Autonomous Vehicles to consumers is via a ridesharing network like lyfts. To be sure, there are very serious challenges to be faced in bringing the full value of Autonomous Vehicles to market for mass consumption, and the greatest potential obstacle is constricted legislation and regulations. The worst possible scenario for the growth of Autonomous Vehicles is an inconsistent and conflicting patchwork of local, municipal and couy laws that will hamper efforts to bring Autonomous Vehicle technology to market. Regulations are necessary, but regulatory restraint and consistency is equally as important if we are going to allow this industry to reach its full potential. This is an area where lyft has vast experience and has learned very valuable lessons. Three years ago, only one state had issued a Regulatory Framework for the ridesharing industry. Today 30 states have enacted legislation for this industry with another bill currently sitting on a governors desk awaiting signature. This is the experience that lyft brings to the table as we embark upon a mission of providing Autonomous Vehicles to the public. With the help of this body, a dedicated effort to tackle hard questions and a commitment to ensure that regulation doesnt inhibit innovation, we can succeed. We look forward to working with this committee to ensure that Autonomous Vehicles can arrive safely and efficiently on americas roads. I thank the committee for holding this hearing and for working towards this common goal, and im happy to answer any questions that you might have. Thank you. Thank you, mr. Okpaku. Dr. Cummings. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. Good afternoon, chairman thune, Ranking Member nelson and distinguished members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss issues about the future of selfdriving cars. I am the director of the duke Robotics Program and Duke Universitys human Autonomy Laboratory which focuses on the multifaceted interactions of humans and Autonomous Systems and complex systems. I have provided future Technology Recommendations to automotive manufacturers for more than a dozen years, including ford, nissan, toyota, google x, thanks, chris. I was the Program Manager for a 100 million Navy Robotics helicopter that carries the very same sets of sensors that youll see on many Autonomous Cars today. I am also currently conducting research for the National Science foundation on the interaction of selfdriving cars and pedestrians. While i enthusiastically support the research and development of selfdriving cars, i am less optimistic about what i perceive to be a rush to field systems that are really not ready for widespread deployment. Here are a few scenarios that highlight the limitations of current selfdriving cars. The first is operation in bad weather, including standing water on roadways, drizzling rain, sudden downpours and snow. Coupling these limitations with the inability of selfdriving cars to follow a traffic policemans gestures, especially on a rainy day in a poncho means that selfdriving cars should not really be operating near Elementary Schools at this time. Another major problem with selfdriving scars their vulnerability to heavy lent or prankster intent. For example, it is relatively easy to spoof the gps of selfdriving vehicles, which involves hacking into their systems, guiding them off course. Without proper Security Systems in place, it is feasible that people could commandeer selfdriving vehicles to do their bidding, which could be malicious or simply just for the thrill of it. And while such hacking represents a worstcase scenario, there are many other potentially disruptive problems to be considered. It is not uncommon in many parts of the country for people to drive with gps jammers in the backs of their trunks to make sure no one knows where they are, which could be very disruptive to the system. Additionally, recent research has shown that a 60 laser device can trick selfdriving cars into sensing objects that are not there. Moreover, we know that people will attempt to game and spoof selfdriving cars, in effect trying to elicit or prevent various behaviors in attempts to get ahead of the cars or simply to have fun. Lastly, privacy and control of personal data is also going to be a major point of contention. These cars carry cameras that look both in and outside the car and will transmit these images and tlomtry data in real time, including where you are going and your driving habits. Who has access to this data, whether it is secure and whether it can be used for other commercial or government purposes has yet to be addressed. So, given that these and other issues need to be addressed before widespread deployment of these cars takes place, but understanding very much that there are clear potential economic and safety advantages, how can we get there with minimal risk exposure . In my opinion, the selfdriving Car Community is deficient in its programs with no leadership that should be provided by nhtsa. Google x, chris just told you, has advertised its cars have driven 1. 4 million miles, and i applaud this, but new york taxi cabs drive 1. 4 million miles in just a little over a day. This insertion is indicative of a larger problem in robotics, in selfdriving cars and in drones, as discussed before, where demonstrations are substituted for principal testing. To verify selfdriving cars are as safe as human drivers, 275 million miles must be driven fatalityfree. So, that means we need a significantly accelerated selfdriving Testing Program, but it is not simply good enough to let these cars operate in california or southern texas to accrue miles. Nhtsa needs to provide leadership for a Testing Program that ensures that selfdriving cars are rigorously tested for what engineers call the corner cases, which are extreme conditions in which these cars will operate. We know that many of the sensors on selfdriving cars are not reliable in bad weather in urban canyons or places where map databases are out of data. We know Gesture Recognition is a problem. We know humans will get in the back seat while they think their cars are on autopilot. We know people will try to hack into these systems. Given selfdriving cars heavy dependence on probabilistic reasoning and the shared complexity of the driving domain, there are many unknowns that these systems will encounter, but there are also many known knounz in selfdriving cars that we are aware of that are not being openly tested and principled in a rigorous manner that would be expected in similar transportation settings. For example, the faa has clear processes for Aircraft Software and we would never let commercial aircraft execute automatic landings without test evidence approved by the faa. However, any certification of selfdriving cars will not be possible until manufacturers provide Greater Transparency and disclose how they are testing their cars. Moreover, they should make such data publicly available for expert validation. Let me reiterate that as a professor in the field of robotics and human interaction, i am wholeheartedly in support of the research and development of selfdriving cars, but these systems will not be ready for fielding until we move away from demonstrations to transparency and evidencebased testing, including human autonomous interaction and sensor vulnerabilities in all environmental extremes. To this end, in collaboration with private industry, nhtsa needs to provide much Stronger Leadership and guidance in this space. Thank you. Thank you, dr. Cummings. I think we do have and we can try this. If you want to turn to the monitor there, this is something that i think today we have something delphi and google. Special for you guys and you will be some of the first people outside of our team and outside of google to ever drive in it. There it is oh, wow okay, annie, here we go all right, lets go theres no Steering Wheel in the way. Oh, its really cool it was really kind of a spaceage experience. You sit, relax. You dont have to do nothing. It knows when it needs to stop. It knows when it needs to go. What she really liked was that it slowed down before it went around a curve and then accelerated in the curve. In the curve. Shes always trying to get me to do it that way. Thats the way i learned in High School Drivers ed. So, if i had a selfdriving car, i could spend more time hanging out with my kids or helping them with their homework, even just tending to them. Our lives are made up of lots and lots of Little Things, and a lot of those Little Things for most people have to do with getting from place to place in order to connect and do things. So, there is a big part of my life thats missing and theres a big part of my life that a selfdriving vehicle would bring back to me. I love this in 2015, delphis car drove itself across the country from coast to coast. Now 50 terabytes later, were applying all that weve learned to the next step. This year in las vegas, delphis car talked to everything, to the street signs and the traffic lights, to the cars all around us, to the guy who was crossing the street on foot or on bike, to the nearby mcdonalds or that starbucks thats up ahead on the left. Why . To make it safer for all of us. Delphi drive available. Consumerbased adoption of active Safety Technology could save approximately 11,000 lives annually. Last year we took a lot of active Safety Technologies that are on the road today and some that we think will be on the road in the next couple of years radar, vision, but also now equipped the car to talk to a variety of information sources, so vehicle to vehicle, vehicle to stop lights, vehicle to pedestrians, for example, and take we can call that vehicle to everything, actually. So, youre able to take information from a lot of different sources on top of all the sensors that you have on the car and help complete the scenario better for decisionmaking, for safety purposes, and now improve the Consumer Experience in the cockpit. The cars letting us know everything it sees immediately. I see green. Or im seeing this, im turning now. So, that idea of safety and confidence, we want you as a passenger to feel comfortable in your car. Delphi drive ending in 1,000 feet. Prepare to take over. Great. Well, thank you, again, all of you, for being here, for sharing your thoughts on this subject. Well get into some rounds of questions now. And i wanted to start by just asking kind of a general one, because i think were talking about something that often was thought of as very futuristic, and there are manufacturers who expect that these cars are going to be on the market in just a few years. Now, all of you have different roles in this area. But when do you think these types of cars will be ready and available in the marketplace . Ill just open that up to the panel, if anybody would like to respond to that. Whats the time frame were talking about . Thank you. From gms perspective, the way we envision introducing this technology into use in the public is through the idea of a ridesharing fleet. We think this gives access to a wide part of the public, including underserved communities. We would introduce it originally as vehicles with drivers, because we do agree we need to collect data and make sure that the systems are operating as we expect them to before we actually start deploying the vehicles without drivers. We think this offers a framework that we can develop and deploy this technology in a very safe way. To your question on timing, we would expect the vehicles with drivers to appear within the next couple of years. And then when they actually start working without drivers will depend on how the technology develops and what the criteria agreed with with regulators are. Mr. Okpaku, how will lyfts partnership with gm do you think on Autonomous Vehicles more rapidly advance the future of mobility . How does that bear on the timing question . Sure. Chairman thune, thank you for the question. I think the starting point for the answer is our experience in the explosion of the ridesharing industry. A few short years ago, as i mentioned in my testimony, the idea of getting into a strangers car was pretty much unheard of. It was something that your mother warned you against. And yet, through the Safety Innovations that lyft implemented, we got people very comfortable with the idea of riding in a strangers car. And we did so at a scaleable rate that allowed us to expand to nearly 200 different cities in less than four years. So, its this ability not only to use innovation to enhance the customer experience, to ensure safety, but to reach a mass audience that we think we will be using to ensure the Quick Deployment of Autonomous Vehicles to the community at large. We have the ability to reach a nationwide audience very quickly with our technology. And frankly, given the cost that will most likely be involved with the first iterations of Autonomous Vehicles, this will be the most costeffective way of getting it to the public as well. So, this is the role that lyft envisions for itself as part of this process. I just want to if i could get some of you to react to some of the concerns that were raised by dr. Cummings. She mentioned weather, hacking, priva privacy, obviously, the transparency of the tests and that sort of thing. But how do these vehicles you talk about them not performing as well under those types of circumstances. So, those of you that are involved in the development and testing of these things, how do you respond to some of those concerns . I think the first thing to know is when we talk about automated driving cars, were talking about multiple types of sensors radar, lidar, vision as well as vtov, vtox. Each of those technologies has strengths and weaknesses. In some cases, vision or lidar may be compromised by weather, but radar is very strong in weather. And similarly with other conditions. So the key is by having a multimodul multimodular, a multisensor approach, you expand your range of coverage and your performance envelope. So, its absolutely true, sensors have strengths and weaknesses, but by combining those sensors, you end up with a much, much more capable package, certainly greater perception capability than an individual driver relying on vision alone. In response to a google inquiry, nhtsa has said that some federal motors safety or Vehicle Safety standards will require additional rulemaking in order to allow for google selfdriving car features. Are you concerned that googles ability to continue to develop and deploy these technologies will be impeded by nhtsas need to update its rules through what could be a very lengthy rulemaking process . Yes, chairman thune, thats really i think an important question, because many of the companies at the table here have within involved in developing this technology and americas currently in very much a leadership position in this space. That said, we look at whats happening in europe, we look at whats happening in china and japan, and theyre hot on our heels. And in fact, not a day goes by where a company, particularly from china, is trying to recruit engineers from our team and poach talent. From our perspective, this technologys advancing at an incredible rate, and we need to see the safety benefits, we need to see the mobility and access benefits, and we need to see the economic benefits in america first. And by finding a way to give nhtsa an approval process that will allow them to xe duty in a very safe way Innovative Technologies and transportation that allow us to continue this technology here in the United States. Yeah. And this could be to the companies who want to respond to this, but nhtsa recently determined that googles selfdriving system could be interpreted as the driver for purposes of nhtsa rules. Conversely, the california dmv has proposed requiring a licensed operator to be present in an Autonomous Vehicle. So, how will the concept of driver change with deployment of selfdriving cars, and how should we resolve potential conflicts, such as the one i just mentioned . I think to the point in the technology, without the driver, at some point you need to designate the vehicle can operate without a driver. So, i think the nhtsa interpretation, in order to encourage t rollout of this technology is entirely appropriate. As far as working with the states, we at General Motors will continue to work with various states to try and craft legislation, understanding the complimentary roles that the federal government and the states play in this area. Do you see the federal role in all this, in terms of what the government plays i should say, having a role when it comes to ensuring theres a nationwide market . Does the federal government have a role in this . So, what obviously would be an issue for any of us working in this area is if we end up with the states with a widely varied patchwork of regulation thats inconsistent from state to state. Obviously, we all when we develop these vehicles, wed envision them crossing state lines. So we absolutely need and support nhtsas initiative to give guidance to the states on legislation in this area and look forward to that initiative and that helping us in working with the states. Okay. Times up. Senator nelson. We do a lot of neat things to protect the national security. Cyber attacks, worms, gps jamming, et cetera. Dr. Cummings, what are we going to do to protect this technology . I think that this problem of cyber physical security is not just unique to drones. Its certainly present in all transportation industries. And so, i think that there are many lessons to be learned. Certainly the military is working on some technologies that are helping. There are a lot of companies who are getting into the antidrone community that are bringing new technologies to bear. So, i think its the maturity of the industry that were going to have to see, and its going to be a multidimensional solution. Its not going to be easy. But im hoping that my peers here at the table and im sure that they will. Were just going to have to start having dedicated focus in these areas instead of just leaving it up to the military, for example, to develop. Well, its interesting that you mentioned drones, because tomorrow in this committee, were going to mark up the faa bill. And one of the things that were concerned about is you put the drone in the flight path of either an inbound or an outbound airliner, and if it gets sucked into the jet engine, thats a catastrophic failure. There are technologies that have already been demonstrated to the chairman and me of taking over that drone, and that is availab available. And sooner or later, were probably to have to employ that in the vicinity of airports. So what is the protection for the Autonomous Vehicle that these kind of technologies you saw the 60 Minutes Program where they completely take over the car. Whats the answer . Anybody. So, from gms standpoint, we think Cyber Security is obviously an important issue in this area, and its something that we spend time thinking about. We have more 4g lte dataconnected vehicles on the road by far than any other oem. We started an inhouse Cyber Security organization. Its the first one and the only one as far as we know in the industry. Inside of that Cyber Security organization we use a technique learned from other industries, employing a red team that goes in and actively tries to identify vulnerabilities in our systems. The Senior Executive in charge of this, Cyber Security organization reports on a regular basis to both the ceo and the board on these matters. Jeff masamilla, also happens to be the vice chairman of the auto isac committee that was set up to share information amongst oems in the industry on vulnerabilities. And that committee we believe has been very effective. So, you think that there are going to be the capability of protecting against this, even without it being extremely, extremely expensive. Let me flip now. What about privacy . What about privacy . Let me get to somebody, mr. Okpaku . Yes, senator nelson. Thank you very much. Lyft, as i mentioned in my testimony, has to be a safe platform for it to work, and part of that safety is ensuring the privacy of its users and its drivers. Its something that we have been 100 committed to since we launched. Its something that we devote an enormous amount of resources to because we know that our platform involves a lot of people across the country. We have an internal team that is constantly reviewing our privacy policies. Approximately onefifth of overall team constitutes engineers and a similar number of people who are dedicated to trust and safety. So this demonstrates how many resources we dedicate to ensuring the safety and this respect the privacy of our users. So what youre saying is technology will allow you to protect the privacy of people even in a vehicle and all the gadgets in it. I think technology is the means that well use it but i think it first starts with a commitment and dedication to ensuring it and i think thats the point im trying to make here. Its part of the reason we wanted to partner with a company like General Motors because we knew of their commitment to vehicles had to be done in a way that was safe and protected, not only the safety but the privacy of the people relying on these services. This is something that we have a lot of experience in over the last three to four years and growing from a company that serviced just one state back in 2012 to a company that services nearly 200 cities now. Maybe you ought to confer with apple since apple seems to be pretty good on its privacy of being able to get into the iphone of the terrorists. Anybody, is the federal governments agency nhtsa, is it prepared to deal with all this . I dont think its just the responsibility of nhsta, it really will take an effort between the industry and the developers and regulatory agencies. So it really is important as we talk about the initiatives where were working together to promote standardization and a uniform approach but do so in an effective Regulatory Framework. I think it has to be a co lab rattive effort. Thank you. Mr. Chairman thank you and thank you for your leadership on this issue. Im disappointed that i didnt get a chance to see one of the cars earlier this morning. I would really have enjoyed that but the chairman thank you for being here and for your expertise in this particular area. The chairman asked the question that everybody was asking, when will this be available. I guessing the next question is does it is it integrated into the current car that you own or do you have to buy an atuonomuos vehicle. We need to design a vehicle with this in mind and look at its entire electrical information to make sure we can get the highest level of protection into the vehicle. So we believe that Going Forward youre going to buy vehicles that may look similar to vehicles on the road but inside well have designed in the Cyber Protection that these vehicles need to operate safely. So it would be a new car . Yes, it would be a new car and i think thats one of the great advantages in applying this ride sharing model is that we can let members of the public experience the Technology Without having to go out and buy a new car. Some of the questions about adoption and how people will react to this technology, i think we can see with real human beings in real settings again without them having to spend money buying a vehicle. What would you anticipate the price range being . I think like any technology this technology is going to be very expensive when you start because as was referenced earlier you anyway an array of different technologies as well some pretty sophisticated Computing Power on board to make it work. Its hard to predict what theyre going to cost because as with any new Technology Much depends on how quickly we can build scale and deploy in volume. Explain as was explained earlier we think this ride sharing model lets us move forward in volume even at a relatively high initial cost of the vehicle. Do you anticipate using this with electric engines. We think its interesting to use this with the electric vehicles because of the environment. I think in ride sharing everybody is interested in reducing pollution and the environmental impacts of the automobile. Thank you. I think nevada was the first to issue a u. S. In the u. S. To issue a license for testing the vehicles for google. In fact i noticed on the screen most of the shots were the Las Vegas Strip or somewhere near to it. Very good. Its my understanding you were also very involved with the testing. Is this accurate, working directly with the department of motors vehicles in nevada . Yes, senator, thats correct. What was the extent of your exercise in testing . So the state of nevada wanted to be a leader in the space and pass legislation instructing their department of Motor Vehicles to create language that would be a first in the nation kind of rule set for self driving vehicles. How important was that . I think it definitely placed a line in the sand around how important this technology was and brought it to national attention. The at the same time i think that it kicked off something that i think many of us are worried about with this potential patchwork of statebystate regulations that would potentially lead to a challenge in delivering the technology broadly. Also, based on what the doctor said, you had a vehicle at ces if im not mistaken. I understand you had an unexpected obstruction there. Explain to us what that unexpected obstruction was. Sure. One of the reasons we enjoyed testing in las vegas is because it does provide a lot of adversity of use cases in a real challenged environment including some of the pedestrians that are there in that environment who may either be intoxicated or maybe a little bit unpredictable in terms of where theyre going on the roadways so as we were driving around downtown vegas on a regular basis we had pedestrians coming out in the path of the vehicle and the vehicle of course seeing them accurately and taking the precautionary measures of slowing down and its a lot of pedestrian traffic in vegas so there were all different points of the vehicle and it really highlighted to us the fact that the senscensors looked around t car at all times. The car looks better than we can so it never failed to find the person and avoid them. I understand one stepped out in front of you and it avoided that individual. It did. Very good. Thank you. Your home state and that city would be a good test for a lot of things. It certainly was. I have senator booker up next. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. So one of the big concerns ive had since coming to washington is that this our Global Economy is being fueled more and more by innovation and america is by far the global exporter of innovation inbeginty. We have been for generations. The problem im seeing more and more is were not creating a Regulatory Regime and an environment that cultivates innovation. Ive seen this like prohibiting companies and the Drone Technology that is now being investigated more outside our country than inside the country. This is definitely one of those areas where i feel the same significant amount of concern. My goal obviously principally is safety but in this time of Great Research innovation and development its difficult for me to hear Companies Say like audi say they described this current patchwork of rules as an impedment to testing new cars in the u. S. And prefer to continue the testing in europe. I just dont like to see us falling behind with creating an environment for testing, especially because if we had Regulatory Regimes like this i always say if this was around during the time of the write brothers we would never have gotten off the ground into exploring air travel. So we were the first to introduce legislation trying to permit the testing of these vehicles but other countries now are clearly leap frogging over us by offering more flexibility to companies to test this technology. In the uk is rapidly moving forward. Those wishing to conduct tests in the uk are free to drive all over the country. Japan has allowed nissan and toyota to test vehicles since 2013. Are we falling behind because other countries are creating a better Regulatory Environment for testing . What is the Regulatory Environment like in terms of dealing with this development of this technology and what can we as legislators do to ensure that our regulations and the space keep up with the pace of innovation and i dont mean keep up with the pace of it, ensure that america leads. Ill open that to anybody. Ill start. I think one of the key things has really already been done and thats passage of the stickers act and fast act because that sets the is a stage for adoption of technologies which are foundational for automated driving. The faster we can employ that and get that out there both from a Technology Development and consumer acceptance standpoint thats good for the u. S. And its good for these technologies. It builds on success as you do that. I think the