Transcripts For KQED Charlie Rose 20160802

Side of the ledger, how do we save. Hes not looking at the revenues. Rose we conclude with jimmy walker the man who just won the pga golf tournament. I think once you know you can do something, then i think the gates can open. Its the same thing that happens at a golf tournament. When somebody thinks a golf course is tough, somebody puts a good number out there, then somebodys like oh, you can do that. And then you start to see more scores happen like that. I think thats the same way. I know when i won my first event more came very quickly right after that. Once you know you can do something then you know you c rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by the following and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose we begin this evening with politics in an interview this weekend, republican president ial nominee donald trump suggested the u. S. Should accept russias an exation of crimea if it would lead to a better relationship with moscow. The view runs counter to the Obama Administration which imposed economic sanctions against russia for an exing the ukraine territory two years ago. It is now believed that the russian government was responsible for the theft of research and emails of the Democratic National committee and hacking into other campaign computer systems. While the Obama Administration has stopped short of a formal accusation cia director john brennan said friday that quote interference in the u. S. Election process is a very very serious matter. Joining me now is david sanger. Hes the National Security correspondent for the New York Times and has been reporting on this story and other allied stories im pleased to have him here at the table. Welcome. Its good to be with you. Rose why, in terms of what the russians are doing. Well talk about that and then well talk about trumps interview about ukraine and other areas. Why would they do, you know, who did it and why did they do it is the first question. And then the third question is how do we retaliate. All fascinating issues. To some degree, this is a story that i think most of us didnt see coming in this election because strange as this election cycle has been, it didnt seem like likely that Vladimir Putin would, if all the evidence points in that direction, try to actively interfere with an american election. We do know that the russians in the past have used information campaigns in european elections and tried to interfere there. And to be fair, the United States is not been above in the history messing around this other countrys elections too. Rose and the regret they didnt support the people in the streets of tehran when they protested their election. In 2009 when president obama was concerned there was a backlash of the americans. Heres what we know. We know the dnc got hacked and we know that they lost large amounts of emails and other data including fund raising data, other databases. Rose embarrassing to them in terms of a campaign against bernie sanders. Thats right. What ultimately ruled in Debby Wasserman Schultz losing her position as head of the party. Thats whats known. If you follow the forensics inside the documents that not the comes that come by wiki leaks but before they did their dump. Someone called gucifer2, we dont believe this was an valid we believe this was probably a set up by the russian gru, the intelligence unit. Rose let me stop you know. I know theres some communication that they werent satisfied with the response to that. So they may have given documents to wiki leaks or someone else. Thats right. And we dont know the transmission. We dont understand how wikileaks got the documents or necessary me who gucifer2 really was. But if you look at some of the documents that got released and you go and you look into the metadata behind them, what do you find. Editing marks in surrilic time stamps doing the work in moscow. You find ip addresses, internet protocol addresses that are identical to ones used in previous hacks by the gru and another russian intelligence agency, the fsb when they attacked the German Parliament and there was an investigation in germany that revealed a number of these. So unless somebody is doing one of the worlds best deception campaigns, always possible, the forensic evidence would strongly suggest that this was done rose theres pretty much agreement on that in terms of all the intelligence sources you have and the Security Forces you have. More consistency on this than on any issue i have seen, charlie, since the north korean hack. Rose why did they do it. Well that gets to another layer of fascinating issues. Because the first hack into the dnc was in june of 2015. When nobody in russia and nobody around your table was predicting donald trump would emerge as the nominee. So then the question is, were they doing this because they were trying to collect things in general. Or were they specifically getting that Hillary Clinton was likely get the nomination. A pretty good call back in june of 2015. And they were looking for material on her. And here you get to an interesting theory of motive. But its just a theory. In 2011, when Hillary Clinton was still the secretary of state, there was a parliamentary election that put in place and solidified Vladimir Putins hold on the government in russia. There were lots of signs of fraud in that election. And she called it out as secretary as state as frequently as american officials do when theres a fraud length election. And putin believed she was encouraging people to come out and protest in the streets which some did. Put down very quickly. Rose putin hates nothing like chaos. Thats right. And nothing like open objection to his rule. So in his mind, it may well be that the United States started this. That we were mess in their election. And if we want to go do that, he can show a way to go do this as well. Now this is all theory, but its a theory that was laid out in public the other day by the director of National Intelligence in the appearance he did at the aspen security summit. Rose the point here its not in order to see donald trump elected because they hate and do not want to see Hillary Clinton elected, if they did it with that motive. If it was with that motive. Now there was a second hack of the dnc, we believe by the gru, the military intelligence group, that came in the spring of this year. And its that hack that tipped off the dnc, that something was going wrong and thats when they called in private investigators when the fbi came in and so forth. And it looks like its the documents seized then that were begin to go see now. Its not at all clear that these two russian intelligence agencies knew the other one was in the system because these guys dont communicate terribly well and in fact compete with each other a fair bit. Rose let me understand the difference. The fsb is sort of the inheriter to the kgb. And the gru is . Its the military intelligence unit. Rose and theres this side issue. There are people who say that if in fact they could do that to the dnc, they could do other hacking they might have done, why wouldnt they have hijacked Hillary Clintons server. Thats right. So weve asked this question endlessly with the fbi and the Public Comments that the head of the fbi gave to Congress Last month was this. He said we have no direct evidence that there was any foreign power in you are server. And he also said, if they were and they were highly sophisticated actors which the russians are, its not at all clear we would see the evidence. Rose they could hide it. They could well hide it. And the fsb did a pretty good job of hiding it for the period of time they were in. So does that tell you that they werent in the server . No. It tells you we dont have any way proving they were or they were not. Now, we havent seen any of those documents though or documents we havent seen published elsewhere show up. Rose thats an assumption. If they had them they would have released something to be damaging to her. You would think. But we dont know the totality. Rose unless we want to way where it might be more tanging at a more propitious time. Thats right or see the reaction to this. Rose so the u. S. , we hack. We hack. Rose we retaliate how . So, whats the difference between this hack and what we do. Rose right. And this is a really difficult problem for many in the Intelligence Community because they dont like the idea of classifying a, the theft of data from the dnc as a cyber attack or necessarily a great sin because an e siflt Organization Political organization in russia, in china, in europe would be considered to be a legitimate target for the nsa or the u. S. Cyber net. The difference is not that we steal stuff the difference is the russians once they did it or whoever in the end took this out, then distributed it and used it for a political purpose to ostensibly to manipulate if you believe that. The u. S. Has not come out yet and accused the russians of doing this. Their standard of evidence has got to be a lot higher than the standard of evidence that individual comes, Cyber Companies would v the president s going to have to make a decision to retaliate or not. You want to do that based on as close to a hundred percent certainty as you can get. Rose how much more certainty do they need before they retaliate. Thats a good question. What can they do that the private companies cant . Nsas job is to go put implants in Computer Networks around the world to be able to see whats happening. Think of them as the cyber equivalent of radar stations that we set up around the world. But of course to do that youve got to break into somebodys system, install an implant thats good enough that nobodys going to find it. Keep it going. Care and feeding of it each day, checking on it, make sure its in the right place. Youre watering it, youre treating it like its a bonsai. And in the end, the u. S. May or may not have evidence because of those implants of who ordered this or what happened to the data when it came back. They may see that all the rest of us dont know. Thats what happened in the sony case where the u. S. Was up inside north koreas system and knew that north korea had made the attack rose they could see. They could see. They dont know and they hent said yet whether thats the case. Rose if you dont want people to know what you have because you dont want them to stop doing whatever they do. It used to be the deal with cell phones. Remember how the cia got crazy because maybe of the times, you found osama bin ladens phone number. It was not in the new yorks times and i dont know if we would publish it. But we stopped using it and he stopped using cell phone. Rose it was the community got very upset about that. They did. The same thing is true in the implants and this was a big issue during the snowden revelations three summers ago. Because we had evidence of how they were up inside china. We published a lot of that because at that point the Intelligence Community was el telling us the chinese already had a full copy of the documents so who are we protecting. And we learned that while the United States warns everybody not to buy Chinese Telecom equipment from waway they were up inside waway. The question is not does everybody spy on each other, of course they do. The question is how do they use that material. And in this case if you believe the american officials, the offense is not doing the spying, the offense is using it to manipulate an election. Rose i see. So that really is going beyond the pale if you try to manipulate an election. But then if youre Vladimir Putin tell me how thats different from the secretary of state encouraging fraud and protest on the street. Rose one thing i want to make sure i understand too. It is the notion when a government does it for a private concerns, even if they are state owned, this was a big issue between the United States and the chinese. My impression was the chinese said okay we wont do that anymore. Thats right. Rose whether they do or dont thats what they said to satisfy the Obama Administration. Thats right. The rules the u. S. Set up and tried to negotiate a norm with the chinese, this does not work with the russians, has been stealing intellectual property is illegal in both countries if you were just come into your studio and stealing your scripts, okay. And so it should be, there should be a norm against that in the cyber realm as well. There is an effort by the u. S. To try to impose a norm which not many others have signed up to like with the chinese which says we also wont interfere with emergency services. And we also wont interfere with the Computer Emergency Response people who try to get you back online. And whats coming down the line is i think the u. S. Would like a rule that says you know, were all going to agree were not going to mess with each Others Nuclear codes because that could lead to such a huge problem back and forth. Rose such a huge risk. And such a huge risk. But youd only want that deal with the other Major Nuclear powers unclear how you handle it with everybody elses got nuclear weapons. Rose so Dianne Feinstein the representative in california the chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee or used to be. Former chairman. Rose minority member, has asked the f. B. I. To investigate and release whatever their determination is as to whether the russians did it or not. Thats right. She did this with adam shift, an intelligence member on the house side. Rose ranking house. Ranking house side. And i talked to representative shift some about in this this weekend. Heres a concern. There have been two very major hacks on the u. S. Government in which while Everybody Knows who is believed to have done them, the government has never stepped out and accused the countries. And the first was the theft of state Department Emails and whitehouse emails and an attack on the joint chiefs of staff that is widely believed inside the u. S. Intelligence community to have been the work of the same two russian intelligences agencies. Cru and the fsb. So you know what theyre to go at home. What theyre doing back in washington right now is theyre comparing the signatures on the dnc hack to the state Department Whitehouse and jcs side. Rose organized an approach to this. If the russian Cyber Community is anything, its highly highly organized. More organized and more subtle over the years than the chinese. The chinese did the opposite personnel management. Rose right, right. In both cases the u. S. Government made the decision not to go reveal what they knew in part maybe for diplomatic reasons and in part because they didnt want to have to reveal the intelligence about how they knew it. What you saw senator feinstein and representative shift do was say look, this is so important to the operation of our democracy, that if you have evidence here, you find a way to make it public. Rose the f. B. I. s not responding. And do you know what its not the f. B. I. s decision. Its the whitehouse because youre going to have a fight thats going to come up between i dont know this but i can predict it from past history between intelligence people who say we cant reveal our forces and methods and others who say mr. President if youre going to go out and awe excuse the russians of messing with the system you better be ready to back it up. Rose do you assume well retaliate. Assuming that the president is persuaded that this evidence is as good as we think it is from the private sector, its hard for me to imagine. I wrote a story about this, it was in the sunday times. Its hard for me to imagine that he couldnt do, he couldnt avoid doing something. Because as in the case of sony, this goes beyond just spy versus spy. Sony was important because he believed that the North Koreans were going after free speech and threatening theatregoers. This would be important because if you dont retaliate, the message you have sent is our electoral system can be manipulated from the outside. Rose theres also the political ramifications of all this in terms of not just trying to manipulate an election, but is this being done with the approval, knowledge, direction of Vladimir Putin, do we think this is actually putin ordering all this. Really hard to know. Because it could well be done by one of these intelligence agencies or by somebody a freelancer hired by them, in which they are trying to impress putin that theyre going out and evening the Playing Field here. It may not have been ordered, it may have been its so easy in cyber to have cutouts. In the old nuclear world, we knew that 20 or 30 people who could launch nuclear weapons. We knew who the russians were. Rose you knew where it was coming from. We knew who it was coming from. In the cyber world its easier to hire outsiders and have them do an attack that is from a different location which makes it all the more fascinating they were so sloppy in this case about leaving these pieces of evidence. Rose Richard Haass is coming in. We interviewed him. Whats your impression of what he knows about russia because its hard to know exactly what he said because he said so many things. I met him, i talked to him perhaps, i never heard, i dont know, i never spoke to the guy. When he talks about crimea, what does he really mean, what does he really understand. When he talks about nato, is he simply saying we think they ought to pay their bills and like president obama, we think it ought to be a percentage of the gdp. I think youve got to operate out two different sets of issues. Ive talked to him now with maggie for a total of about three hours on National Security issues over two different interviews. One in march and then one in cleveland. Rose whats your impression. My impression is this. That on some issues on which have been a hobby horse of his for a while, like the fact that other members of nato dont pay their share. Hes taking something that he has said before and hes escalating it to the next level. Nobody disagrees, including president obama, that the members of nato are not carrying their weight, okay. Whats different is rose president called them free riders. Thats right. Rose he included britain and others in it. Thats right. Actually the ones who are doing the most to carry their weight are the Baltic States who are worried about russia. Rose and the ones that should be worried about it too. Theyre carrying weight but theyre such small countries and small economies theyre not contributors in the larger nato enter vise because enterprise because of their small size. And hes saying if you dont pay up well pull out of nato. When we saw him in cleveland the night before his acceptance speech, i said to him, i had just been in alstonia. But if you saw the russians attacking or undermining one of these three countries, would you come to their defense. And his answer was, i would basically check first and see whether or not they have been making their own contribution. Well, then president obama came back and said, this is an alliance. This is not a business transaction in which we check the ledgers each time. It would be a little bit like your house is burning, charlie, you call up the fire type. And mr. Rose, lets check and see where your property payments are. So what i think hes trying to do may simply be, what mr. Presume is trying to do may simile be a negotiating tactic to try to scare them into all paying more for fear we will pull back. The problem is, that that feeds into an existing insecurity among many in europe that the United States is pulling back and that even if trud doesnt get elected, this reflects a broader move within the u. S. To withdraw itself from the conflicts and there the defense commitments. Same question in japan and in south korea. Rose david sanger thank you for coming. Thank you, charlie. Rose david sanger from the New York Times. Stay with us. Rose we continue our conversation on politics and Foreign Policy with Richard Haass. Hes president of the council on Foreign Relations. I am pleased to have him back at this table. So donald trump and his Foreign Policy. Can you define it for me. I think there are two principle dimensions. One is what i would call economic nationalism. The idea that Foreign Policy is something of a drain and that the real purpose of american Foreign Policy ought to be to serve the american economy. And the other is were trench men. If you want to use a stronger word charlie, some version of minimalism or isolationism. But again the idea that foreign is more about costs and benefits from his perspective he wants to dial down dramatically so what we do. In his view that would spare us the problems of international involvement. And it put aside then a big pile of resources that he believes can better be used at home. Rose thats more sophisticated than i would imagine. I think its simply transaction. Its his transactions. If you take a step back it reflects a larger mind set that the world has ripped us off. That by and large almost the equivalent domestically when he says the game is rigged. Hes saying the world is ripping us off. Allies have cost us more than they helped us. When you look at the span of history and dont get me wrong i think this is wrong but when you look at the span of history the United States has paid much more than benefited from international involvement. Rose is that the price of leadership. Its not the price but the benefit of leadership. We won the cold war. Weve had an extraordinary 75 years of world leadership. Rose still the most powerful county in the world. Absolutely because world war ii turned out the way it d cold war turned out the way it d the United States and its allies won. Since then we did quite well beginning with the gulf war. The only mistakes and three biggest is going to career awe trying to unify, vietnam and iraq. Those are examples of american overreach. They werent allies who misled us. We werent forced to do any of those things, those were all self creative. Weve done extraordinarily well on more than policy when we put certain limits on what of weve done. Rose you once made and frequently made the phrase whether it was a war of choice or not. Absolutely. Korea was a war of necessity to begin about but when when we tried to reunified the country. Its true, we signed off on it. The biggest mistake of his presidency and the other two were clear wars of choice. In neither case did we have to do it when we did it, how we did it. Its not clear how vital american interests were at stake and we paid an enormous price. One of prices, if you add some of what we did in afghanistan and libya, youre seeing a real disillusionment and the fact youve had dud do as well as hes done. Bernie sanders did as well as hes done. Rose theres no Foreign Policy. Which trump has made explicit and some ways sanders made implicit. Neither one has much of an active Foreign Policy and i think this is in some ways the reaction to overreach. Now were getting under reach. Were seeing it across party lines. Rose so do you think trump then borders on isolationism. Large elements of it where again hes much more conscious of the alleged costs. And thinking through, what happens if we dial back. What then happens to the world. What about the proliferation. What about the conflicts. What about the lost markets. I think its almost like hes looking, hes a businessman as if hes looking at one side of the ledger how do we say not looking at the revenues. Rose how to invest. What hes missing is the lost revenues from where u. S. Still leads. Rose does it make you wonder what he really knows. Partially what he knows. Rose or operating on instinct which he takes pride in. Clearly he takes pride in that. The only way i could think of de defending it and its a sketch is the ukraine uniform decisions and uniformed guys going in and mucking around. What happened in crimea was a fundamental threat of the basic principle of international relations. The one thing virtually everyone in the world can agree on is you cant use military force to change borders. Its the basic idea of sovereign tree. The one idea thats been around for a couple hundred years. When Saddam Hussein tried it in kuwait the soviet union came together to rebut it. Rose you cant change military force to change government. Borders. What russia did was clearly a threat to the post war or the order in europe. And the fact that we didnt have the military option to resist it, i understand that. But the fact that we have resisted with sanctions at least to penalize russia makes great sense. What mr. Trump suggested was that he was going to examine or look at the entire sanctions policy. You have the story then about the republican platform. Not talking about the writing lethal assistance to the ukraine, ukrainians, instead theyre talking about appropriate assistance, whatever, whatever that means. What seems to be missing is a willingness to push back against russia when russia violates the norms of international society. Rose so you think he has a rosecolored vision of russia. There sales to be a benign view both of putin, respect for the man and a wide spread acceptance of what russia has done in europe, what it has done in the middle east. In the case of syria. Whats sad to me though about all this is this focus on russia. Think about it. Russias a country with 143 million people. Its got a onedimensional economy oil and gas that shrunk. Rose it has in recent times. Putin is looking for Foreign Policy to compensate for what he cant deliver at home. Hes very good tactically exploiting opportunities, whether its georgia, ukraine or syria. Rose the New York Times piece about this too but at the democratic convention, i mean what you saw was speaker after speaker suggests that he has no comprehension of american values. You saw democrats take on the american exceptionism argument that it had been for a long time more frequently, pressed by republicans which you are one i assume. I still am but im a george had had Herbert Walker bush republican. I dont like to talk about it because it greats, we ought to be it rather than talk bit. We ought to be something that others want to emulate. Rose so if you take that, the democrats, one after another said that it just doesnt grasp america or its role and they were attacking essentially his appreciation the history and constitution of america. What i think you have is one candidate, Hillary Clinton, who is operating to use a sports analogy forgive me within the 40 yard lines of American Foreign paul z the post world war ii consensus and donald trump is not. Hes the First Major Party candidate who is operating way beyond the 40 yards. We can argue whether its the 20 or the end zone. Rose i dont know if its a Foreign Policy. Its connected to Foreign Policy. If you look at his views on immigration and some other issues, they are again not part of the traditional governing consensus. In some ways it maybe reflects, 70 odd percent of america thinks were heading in the wrong direction, he is clearly tapping into that. Its not advocacy its simply an observation that a lot of americans for whatever reason are disaffected. And by operating outside the center of the field, hes clearly deriving some benefit. Rose its interesting too because at the same time they believe that were on the wrong track. By the politics of america, they believe that barack obama is now experiencing a rise in his ratings. So as the wrong track has risen Barack Obamas popularity has risen. Its a dilemma for Hillary Clinton. You have a president thats favorable at rough me 50 plus or minus that would argue the third term argument and you say 50 of americans say were on the wrong track. Rose thats continuity and not change. Thats part of the dilemma to the Clinton Campaign to what percent do you represent yourself augerring for continuity. So much of the countrys divided. That might be the only explanation for those different numbers that you just suggested. Rose was Hillary Clinton a good secretary of state. Yes. I mean, she went about things. I think the biggest thing she did that was to me interesting was to quote unquote pivot. The idea that the United States was not going to spend its proportionate share in the middle east but adjust not switch but adjust to define 21st century. I think that was the big idea of mr. Obamas Foreign Policy. Rose mr. Obama says the northern policy as you well know he copied bush 41. He did some of that but it was too limited. That might have been his impulse but wouldnt have argued for the retrenchment. Bush was an International Leader but he cant retrench. Obama retrenched in syria, iraq, afghanistan. It seems to me obama went too far. Rose retrenchment is a hallmark of his Foreign Policy as well as multilateralism. When history is rough on mr. Obama is the retrenchment went too far dialing things down thought the world could organize itself, it couldnt. The more positive way is this putting more eggs into the asia basket. I think the problem was it didnt get executed sufficiently and one of the big pieces of it as you know the Trans Pacific partnership the trade agreement is sitting there on life support in the American Congress and part now rose Major Political parties against it. People want bipartisanship this all to be a warning. Sometimes bipartisan shine isnt that great. The strategic as well as economic consequences of that i think are potentially true. Rose i suspect that the pivot, the president and secretary of state believed and want, they gave more rhetoric to it than they did action. Also, and to the extent they gave action to it, it was more dialing down in the middle east and dialing up in the asia pacific and that was argued different. Rose they would argue we went to vietnam and we tried to create a level of cooperation and we made our presence there felt. We did certain things diplomatically particularly in the first term. It hasnt been consummated. A little bit more military presence. Some could argue for some more. Rose if you want to call the Jake Sullivan of the trump candidacy, who would you call. One would have to take the candidate at his word and call him. I dont think there is rose obviously no james theres no equivalent say of condoleezza rice. What i dont see, i see different people. I think its sam is that his name, i see various people there. Rose it counts as Foreign Relations doesnt know his name. I dont see anything like a large Foreign Policy. Actually the scale difference what Hillary Clinton has. Rose thats about political as well too its not just Foreign Policy. Its about the politics of the thing. Its also consistent with the fact that Hillary Clinton is implicitly and explicitly arguing for more traditionally involved Foreign Policy. Donald trump is arguing for much less Foreign Policy. The only thing that explains his statements about alliances is statements about trade. Rose which brings it back to putin. The ive had people tell me, and you can weigh in on this that what is at play here is not so much that he favors donald trump, which he may and have said some nice things. Its mainly that hes so putin. He dislikes Hillary Clinton. Because she has done things to him that he thinks if i may paraphrase mr. Trump for a moment i dont have a relationship with mr. Putin so i cant sit here and tell you what motivates him. But my point is simply that if youre Vladimir Putin, if you have a candidate who is raising questions about american support for tra desiral allies in europe and says hes going to revisit the issue of ukraine and sanctions, for me thats a more appealing outcome. Rose heres whats interesting too and as one of his very good friends said to me during the republican convention, very good friend who spoke on the same night he spoke. So there. Okay. Narrows it. Rose exactly. He said to me on the air, for him its everything is almost transactional. So its an opening bid. Whatever he says is to sort of, you know, this is my opening bid. That may well be true. Rose and therefore whatever he opens with dont expect that to be where he ends up. That may work in certain business environments but Foreign Policy is not about transactions its about relationships and predictability and reliability. So youve got to be careful with opening bids if they suggest a disgree of change or lack of certainty. Countries are counting on us. The japanese, the koreans, the germans and others. They count on us. They franchised a big amount of security to the United States. Thats a rock solid commitment if not theyll appease russia or china or go their own ways and develop capabilities and nuclear weapons. Those are two outcomes we have got to guard against. As a result we cant afford an opening bid Foreign Policy that departs from predictability and reliability. To be a great power, it is essential that countries know when they get up in the morning, there are certain things they can take for granted. Theres got to be some assumptions. Rose apart from donald trump, are there many big new ideas in Foreign Policy. The big debate are the 41s who want to make the world a more stable place but have a limited Foreign Policy and the transformers. The people on the right and left who want to create democracy places, bush 43 and to some extent some others. Thats been the big debate. In a sense that debates over. We now have a very different debate between internationalists and shades of isolationists. So weve gone from a debate about ambition to a debate about pulling back. Rose dave brooks made a point it used to be the argue was Big Government or not and david brooks stepped forward to say in the political arena its either opened or closed. In a northern policy it used to be between big Foreign Policy and medium now its between medium Foreign Policy and small Foreign Policy. Bernie sanders and in elements of the democratic platform and in donald trump and large elements of the republican platform were seeing what we havent seen in several generations a serious push towards small Foreign Policy. Rose Richard Haass, thank you. Thank you, charlie. Rose Richard Haass, president of the council on Foreign Relations. Back in a moment. Stay with us. Rose jimmy walker is here. Hes the 2016 pga champion. He led start to finish by defending. Ga champion and the worlds top rank player. It was his first major title on tour. Also became the fourth first time major champion of the 2016 golf season. I am pleased to have him here at this table. Welcome. Thank you. Rose just think about this. Look at the names, byron nelson and sam sneed, Jack Nicholas arnold palmer. But you said you would win this. You knew it was coming at some point. I had it in my abilities for this to happen and it was a dream to come true. Rose i will say the same thing as Justin Johnson for example once you get a major it will unleash something so that the likelihood of winning more is more likely. I would think so. I think once you know you can do something, then its, then i think the gates can open. Its the same thing that happens at a golf tournament. When somebody thinks a golf course is tough, somebody puts a good number out there. Then somebodys like oh, you can do that. And then you start to see more scores happen like that and i think thats the same way. When i won my first event more came very quickly right after that. Once you know you can do something then you know you can do it. Rose has your game changed between this and when you won your first tournament . I think its about the same. I feel like this year was just i havent played quite as well as i would have liked to have especially the last three or four years. I felt i had a break through a week ago in canada, i felt like some stuff was starting to materialize. Was that from practice or just sort of happened. Its from practice and its from practicing better thinking and staying in a positive frame of mind not getting so down, just keeping up beat knowing youre right there. So its been a little bit of both. Rose they used to say about tiger that he had a mental edge. That his father had drilled that into him. True . I think so. Hed stand out on the range and watch all of us with golf balls. Everybody can do it, stand out there and hit the golf ball. What separates the great players is that ability to mentally just dominate the field honestly. Rose listen to this though. 65, 66, 68, 67. Could you hear the footsteps of jason day . I saw the footsteps of jason day. He was right in front of me. That was nice. In the last group youre in the drivers seat you get to watch whats going on. I know rose thats what you get to do. Being in the last group is huge because you kind of control you fate. Rose anything you want to change about your game. I said that to jordan last year and he said maybe add ten yards to my distance. For me its more about finding more fairways. Historically not in the straighest driver of the golf ball but i drove it very well last week. Rose how many times were you not in a fair way. I hit the fair way through times. And hit it in the water once. And the drive i hit in the water i felt like i hit a great shot. It just kind of hopped a couple times left and right. Thats what i would like to improve. Im not talking like a lot, im talking, you know, from 52 if i could get up to 60 that would be huge. Rose today in modern golfer, there are coaches that teach you the right mental attitude, people working on your body, somebody who is working on your swing. Its almost like team walker. Thats right. There are a lot of team out here anymore and i think thats whats kind of happened with golf. Its been a while since i worked with a sports psychologist. I actually started working with a lady about a month ago. Rose what did she teach you . What do you learn from her. Really getting into it. We havent really develop dove super deep, just stepping it in. Talking about trusting yourself and trusting what youre doing and believing in yourself. Rose believing it. Yes. You got to, you have it. And its been great. Shes been great so far. Ive really enjoyed it. Rose do you have a golf instructor, a pro. I do. I work with butch harman for the last four years now. Rose a good place to go. Yes, it was. I was at a point where i want to go see the best guy i think there is going. And he took me in and its been a great ride. Rose what is it they do for someone who hits the ball as well as you do . For me, it was just a few little fine tunes with some of the takeaway stuff keeping the body more quiet and shorter. Rose shorter. Shorter. I have a big long swing. Keeping it short. Rose i thought that was good. It was in effect but i have a tendency to let the body and the arms run on and run away from the rest of the body and then i get stuck behind it. So taking care of that and when you got the best teacher in the world telling you how good you are. Its like a little injection of confidence. Rose that the core and the fundamentals are right there. It is. Rose and they can take you anywhere you wanted to go. Yes, i think so and weve done a pretty good job so far. Rose talk about strategy in terms of i mean how you approach it. When you approach the first tee one of the famous tough courses in america, what are you thinking . Are you thinking i hospital i i hope i get the ball off the tee. Mine was yesterday i hope i put this in the middle of the fairway. Im not going to make it up. I did and i had a six iron right in the middle of the green what i was supposed to and just continued that way the rest of the day, keeping it in front of me. I just didnt want to make mistakes. Rose did you make any mistakes. Technically, no. No bogies. But there were some shots i would like to take back for sure. Rose why do you think youre good, as good as you are, as your record clearly suggests. As your performance as a golfer. Why do you think. I dont think it, i know im good. Rose is it just because you go out there and you see you can play as well as anybody, period, as you did. Any given day i can beat anybody. Rose you got to have everything in order to beat anybody any given day. Sometimes. Sometimes you dont need everything to get by. I mean theres parts of your game that you dont have it all every day. But you need something to kind of shine. Something to pick you up and thats why you practice every fa facet of your day. Your short games got to be on, you are going to make a putt, its the balance of being on. Something really needs to be on every day to keep moving up. Rose i dont know where this question is coming from but somewhere i read this. That one often most overlooked shot is the second shot. Whatever your iron is. Thats the most overlooked productive shot. I can see that because it is the second shot can really help set up if youre going to make a birdie or an eagle or so yeah, i mean the tee shots important. You want to be in the fairway so its pretty one dimensional but the second shots more strategy involved like youre talking about. Where many agoing to lead this. Do i want the up hill putt, can i hit it on the hole and have the up hill putt. You dont want to hit it long and have the downhill curler. Theres a lot of strategy where to hit it. Rose did harman refuse to take your check in the beginning . Theres a story that he kind of did. He kind of started working with me. I went and saw him and paid him. And then he said he couldnt work with me at tournaments. And he kind of ended up doing that. Rose because he had other people. He had other people and i understood that. But he saw me at charlotte and we worked and it was great and i saw him the next week after charlotte i said thank you so much, i dont know what your deal is with your guys but let me know what i owe you and he said you dont owe me anything. Same very next at the players, same thing. Came out and watched me play and we practiced and we worked. After the week i had a great week, i said what do i owe you, he said nothing. And im like i cant do this. So i knew through just talking to him and stuff that he enjoyed fine wine. And i enjoy some nice wine myself. Rose margot was on the way. I had one at home and i said this is the easiest thing, this is a no brainer. Rose when did you know that golf was your passion, golf was your life . I think when i beat my dad for the first time. Rose is that right. Yeah. My dad is a really good player and he shot the same scores the guys did on tv. When i was 15 i beat him i shot 68 to his 69. And i knew right then i said man if i can beat, i always thought if i can beat my dad i know ill be pretty good at this game. Rose you were how old. 15. Rose so you knew at 15. I did. Rose that you had what it took to be a pro. I know thats what i wanted to do. Did i know that i had what it took then, no. I think i really realized how good i was becoming in college. I think my senior year at baylor i learned how to really play the game. And shoot good scores. And put up good scores and put four rounds together. Rose back when you beat your father you knew you were in the right lane. Yes. I knew i was on the right path. The path i wanted to be in. Rose did he know it . Did he say you beat me, you can do whatever you want to. In a sense, yeah. I think so. Its something that he and ive done forever and we watched golf forever and we talked about it. He had always talked about wanting to be out there, wanting to be out there, wanting to play on the pga tour, halves that was the kind of dream and goal. Rose youre an astro photographer, what is that. Astro photography is taking pictures of deep sky objects at night. I dont do any plan planets or sun its deep sky galaxies and nebula what i shoot. Rose how did you come to this. This started about six years ago i had a telescope in the backyard my wife got it for me for christmas. In the pollution in san antonio theres not a lot to see and i learned how to attach a camera to it and it just got crazy from there. Rose you became obsessed. I did become obsessed. I had a lot of fun doing it. I was more than a golfer. It gave me something to do outside 0 life. Its a form of art and i used to love drawing and now its on the computer but its still art what we do. Astro photography its not just a technical thing, it is an art form. Rose has nasa bought some of these photographs or you gave it to them. They were chosen by nasa. Nasa has a thing called astronomy picture of the day and oldest running websites in the history of the internet. Its called asian strong me picture of the day, called apods for short. They pick a picture a day. Theres 365 a year and theres thousands of submissions a day. So to get one a year is a treat. And it seems like anymore were getting three to four a year, which is amazing. Rose youre getting three or four a year. Uhhuh. Rose when you snap it, do you know thats maybe an apod . Yeah, i think so. We put a lot of time into the picture so were talking rose who is we. I have a partner in california that helps run the telescope and the equipments mine. His names mike and hes awesome. He lives really close to the telescope and we partnered up. He does a great job keeping everything running and we share the data that comes in. So everything we take, he gets and i get too and we just have fun with it. But its been an amazing ride with that. Ive really enjoyed it and i still enjoy doing it. As far as do i know if its an apod or not. I try not to put anything out anymore that im not a hundred percent pro i think its an art form in the sense of its creativity on how you want to attack and play the golf course. How do you see the shots. There are guys on tour that are very one dimensional. They hit the same shot over and over and over and they try to fit that shot into every hole. But me, im more of a guy that likes to work. You see like an art. Like you know, you watch a guy like bubba watson, every shot he hits somethings going on. Its a huge amount. Rose good success. Great to have you here. Thank you. Rose congratulations. Just to think that youre right there. Right there. Rose there you go. Jimmy walker, 2016. A pretty stuff course. It is. I played there in 2011 and i was happy to come back. Rose good luck to you. Good to meet you. Thank you charlie. Rose pga champion 2016. Thank you for joining us. See you next time. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org rose funding for charlie rose has been provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. This is nightly Business Report with Tyler Matheson and sue herera. Wrestling with th fall more from their most cent highs, taking gas prices and oil stocks down witthem. S on a gps pree. Tracking company. And investors want to know why. Goiosru takeshake up the savings of millions of americans. Those stories and more tonight on nightly Business Report for monday, aust. Good evening and welcome. Not for stock, but oil prices. Domestic crude broke below 40 a barrel midday to settlen