The national stage. Despite or perhaps because of a multipr offensive waged in defense of the new York Police Departments policy. An offense of which began last week in response to a judge finding the nypds stop and frisk violated the Constitutional Rights of people of color in new york. It intensified this weekend when nypd commissioner ray kelly who remains a top candidate for the head of the deparent defarmt of Homeland Security appeared on meet the press to defend his record. If a program like stop and frisk is abandoned, will people die . Well, i think no question about it, Violent Crime will go up. Again, this is not a program. This is something thats integral to policing. This happens throughout america. And any police jurisdiction. You have to do it. That appearance coincided with a predictably defensive editorial by mayor Michael Bloomberg in the Washington Post in which the mayor took turns defending stop and fricsk and attacking the Washington Post, itself, and others were criticizing the practice saying the men and women who protect our city from criminals and terrorists deserve better than to have their integrity impugned in a courtroom or a newspaper especially when the facts are so clearly on their side. Even today speaking at a press conference, touting the largest gun seizure in new york history, both men looked to play up the role of stop and frisk in getting guns off the street. Wiretap conversations from this investigation show that one of the gun traffickers biggest concerns was stop, question, frisk. Campbell didnt want to risk it being found by new york police and is heard saying, yeah. Im in charlotte now. I cant take them to my house, to my side of town, in brownsville. We got, like, watchamacallit, stop and frisk. Mayor bloomberg and commissioner kelly doubling down and repeating the same statements again and again over stop and frisk is not having the intended ill packeimpact. Sybrina made the connection that drives stop and frisk and the suspicion that ended up taking the life of trayvon martin. You have to give the Police Officers the right direction. You cant give people the authority whether a civilian or Police Officers the right to just stop somebody because of the color of their skin. Back in new york city, frontrunner in the mayoral raise, bill deblazio catapulted into first place because of his opposition to stop and frisk. This morning he unveiled his second ad on the topic. There are hundreds of thousands of new yorkers who never experienced stop and frisk. We talked to dante many times about the fact someday he will be stopped. Parents all over the city are having that conversation with their kids. Bill de blasio, to end the stop and frisk era. Bill de blasio is in an uncommon position for a white man having a son who will likely be stopped and frisked by the nypd. Thats not true of Michael Bloomberg. A small, amazingly revealing moment, he, quote, conceded to the new yorker, if i had a son no was stopped, i might feel differently about it. Joining me, ben jealous of the naacp. You heard ray kelly and Michael Bloomberg saying the big gun seizure was thanks partly to stop and frisk. Why are you standing in the way of the effective gun control measure done in new york city to make the streets safer here . Well, because quite frankly, Effective Police work focused on behavior is what gets guns off the street. Stop and frisk doesnt. You know, in 2011, we had about 700,000 stop and frisks in the city. 680,000. And they pulled about 700 guns off the street. That means that 99. 9 of the stop and frisks didnt yield any guns. If you want to get 700 guns off the street, well, you can do it through a big seizure like they did today or do it by an effective gun buyback program. And either way, you would be much more effective than the amount of hours it takes, if you can imagine, to do 700,000 stop and frisks. Sometimes involving one cop, sometimes involving multiple cops. Naacp is, of course, a national organization, oldest Civil Rights Organization in the u. S. You have chapters everywhere. Why are you so focused on new york city and stop and frisk . For folks who are watching who dont live in new york city, is this bigger than new york city . Yes, this is the biggest racial profiling program in the country, biggest racial profiling k profiling, maybe in the world. Mayor bloomberg tried to get the mayor of San Francisco to replicate his program. Back then he was saying it was a program. No now hes trying to switch pr tactics. The mayor said thank you but no because it is just a phenomenal waste of resources and its not effective. I mean, just break this down, chris. You kind of roll the tape back a bit. Back in 2002, as kelly was taking over, he was very clear that he saw stop and frisk as dubious. He was very clear that actually he was against racial profiling. Hed come out of u. S. Customs where hed been very effective in increasing the productivity of searches by customs by ending racial profiling. He also said that you cant really take credit for drop in crime. That it was like taking credit for an eclipse of the moon. And he, of course, was referring to his predecessor, bill bratton. Bill bratton, threequarters of the drop in homicides in new york city since its high point in the early 1990s happened during that period. Yeah, happened during that period. Let me ask you this. You raise the specter of ray kelly. Ray kelly has been a very stalwart defender of his departments approach. Believes genuinely hes saving peoples lives. Saving black and brown peoples lives. Hes been floated as possible head of dhs. Given this policy and how associated with it, how stalwart defender, what do you think of the possibility of ray kelly being nominated to head dhs . I think that it is possible me get s nominated. I think if he gets nominated, hell face the fiercest opposition from the Civil Rights Community that any person put forward by president obama ever has. It will be vocal and outspoken because he has chosen to be vocal and outspoken about racial profiling. Im not sure that, frankly, he really believes in this. At the very least, he was against racial profiling before he was for if. He thought stop and frisk was dubious before he became its biggest champion. And well, hes definitely theres been a trajectory. Theres been some movement. Im willing to grant. Ben jealous from the naacp. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you, chris. Joining me now, ryan grim, Washington Bureau chief for the Washington Post. Ray kelly, head of new york citys police department, which is a big job, on sunday shows talking about stop and frisk as a central issue, and im just curious, what was your read of the political subtext of those appearances . You know, hes in a difficult position here because, you know, hes been floated now for a long time as a likely pick here. I know obama tends to leave people out there for a long time. It happened to susan rice. It happened to larry summers. And its difficult. Hes most associated with stop and frisk, but like ben jealous said, he might not actually believe in it, but because hes so associated with it, he just has to come out and say it. I thought it was awfully revealing of kind of where the media lead is, the way gregory came out and said, will this plead to more people dying . He essentially was baiting ray kelly to say if you change this policy, you will have blood on your hands. He sort of took the bait but didnt exactly go there. He knows hes in a really tough spot because this is such a controversial issue nationally. It doesnt it doesnt wear as well nationally. If new york was the only city in the world, a lot of new yorkers often think it is, youd think, oh, there was stop and frisk and crime came down so stop and frisk must have driven crime down. Washington, we dont do this. You dont get asked for your papers, dont get stopped by cops when youre walking down the street in washington and crime has plummeted here. How do you explain that if youre ray kelly . What i think is fascinating, im curious what you think of this from your perch in washington, is we have seen i think in the wake of Trayvon Martins death and the acquittal of george zimmerman, the florida dream defenders down in florida, ray kelly, Michael Bloomberg, mayoral race and the judges decision and the president s comments on this, this remarkable confluence, unlike any ive ever seen that put this issue, our criminal justice system, racial profiling within it. Its disproportionate effect on black and brown people. Right in the center of the national debate. Is it being felt in washington where it has, in my opinion, for years been complete ll lly abse . Yeah, it very much is and it really is for the first time in more than 20 years, because, you know, republicans ran effectively, you know, through the late 60s and 70s and into the 80s painting democrats as soft on crime. So they did the same thing they did with welfare reform. They said, were not going to win this issue, lets just throw them under the bus. They got really tough on crime. You know, joe biden was really kind of the leading drug warrior in the senate, both republican and democratic. And that kind of took the issue off the table and instead of there being a debate about it, it was who was tougher. Who could get more, you know, who could rough more people up, who could be more in favor of more police on the streets who would give them more militarygrade weapons longer sentences. Exactly. This is the thing, this is the key truth, ryan, if an issue in washington is not being debated by democrats and republicans, it ceases to exist. No matter how much effect it has on lives of millions of americans. Msnbc contributor ryan grim. Thank you so much. Thank you. Our latest installment of i see you politician whos trying to get away with something features the governor of new jersey. Chris christie. Who spent the past few days probably hoping no one noticed what he did on friday night and everyone noticed what he did on monday morning. Thats coming up. Is your busine. So, if youre sleeping in your contact lenses, ask about the air optix® contacts so breathable theyre approved for up to 30 nights of continuous wear. Serious eye problems may occur. Ask your doctor and visit airoptix. Com for Safety Information and a free onemonth trial. The beach on your tv is much closer than it appears. Dive into labor day with up to 50 off hotels at travelocity. [ villain ] well mr. Baldwin. It appears our journey has come to a delightful end. Then i better use the capital one purchase eraser to redeem my venture miles for this trip. Purchase eraser . Its the easy way to erase any recent travel expense. I just pick a charge, like my flight with a few taps, its taken care of. Impressive baldwin. Does it work for hotels . Absolutely thank goodness. Mrs. Villain and i are planning our. You scare me. And i like it. Lets go whats in your wallet . We had a big announcement today at msnbc. Starting next monday, august 26th, the the ed show will move back to weeknights 5 00 p. M. Eastern and hardball with Chris Matthews will air at 7 00 p. M. Eastern. It will be great to have eds voice back five days a week. Up next, the latest Conspiracy Theory about barack obama and this ones not from fox news. But Egyptian State television. Stick around. But i dont love chlorine bleach. See this . This is what bleach did to my favorite dress. Oh, but i dont see a dress. Nope. Exactly, because using bleach over time made it dingy so i threw it out. But now i use tide plus bleach with boost vivid and my whites stay whiter than with bleach. Why dont you try on that invisible dress . Oh, dan. [ female announcer ] reintroducing tide plus bleach alternative. For incredible whites without the harshness of chlorine bleach. [ jen ] thats my tide for brilliant whites. [ dan ] whats yours . Humans. Even when we cross our ts and dot our is, we still run into problems. Namely, other humans. Which is why at Liberty Mutual insurance, auto policies come with new car replacement and accident forgiveness if you qualify. See what else comes standard at libertymutual. Com. Liberty mutual insurance. Responsibility. Whats your policy . Governor Chris Christie has tried to pull off a threecard money on new jersey voters. National primary voters and the National Local press. Check it out. Today governor christie signed a3371 into law, a bill that bans licensed therapists from attempting socalled gay conversion therapy on minors. There are no cameras or photographers present, but the governor released a statement saying the American Psychological association has found efforts to change Sexual Orientation can pose Critical Health risks including but not limited to depression, substance abuse, social withdrawal, decreased selfesteem and suicidal thoughts. I believe exposing children to these health risks without clear evidence of benefits that outweigh serious risks is not appropriate. Based upon this analysis, i signed this bill into law. Now, thats a perfectly good thing to do. It shouldnt be a difficult decision since minors should not be subjected to something that the American Psychological association is basically calling child abuse. But okay. That a boy, Chris Christie. This is, after all, what we might expect from a governor for a state that went for president obama by 17 points in the last election. This past friday, however, another Chris Christie was at work and that Chris Christie did something after 6 00 p. M. In the summer on a friday when all the reporters had gone for the weekend. That Chris Christie vetoed a ban on a military sniper rifle, the barrett. 50 caliber longrange rifle. Heres the big military rifle. A weapon that has no plausible civilian use. Its more or less a war toy for amateur gun enthusiasts. The ban was one previously called for, wait for it, chris kr ri christie, himself, last april. He says the bill goes too far by prohibiting current owners from keeping their guns. It could be a group called progun new hampshire, interesting state, rallied out of state gun supporters to push christie to veto the bill with 2016 in mind. This is the Chris Christie dance, and its the one well get to see as he runs for reelection this year in a state with lots of liberals but positions himself with conservatives ahead of 2016, but keep this in mind, as soon as election day hits in november, if Chris Christie wins the second term, there will be no immediate need to strike such a balancing act. No new jersey liberals to be concerned about. Freaky friday will not be fol w followed by moderate monday. Joining me now is barbara, Democratic State senator, whos a candidate for governor of new jersey. Senator, what do you think about these two bills . The first bill, the bill the governor signed today and the bill on friday he vetoed . Well, you know, over the weekend the governor really, governor straighttalk really came clean, portrays himself as a social moderate. The only thing motivating him is his singular attempt to become the republican nominee for president of the United States. And so on friday, profiles in courage, he decides to veto gun bills that, as you said, he actually came out in support of. Let me push back on that. If thats the case, the only thing thats motivating him is to become the nominee in 2016, why do we get todays bill banning this practice which is not going to curry favor with republican primary voters . Hes trying to thread the needle. Youll see that when he it was very telling when he was questioned by reporters on this bill when it fst came out. What do you think of gay conversion . His initial reaction, unfiltered, all thentic christie reaction, i need to know more about it. What more do you need to know, Chris Christie . Gay and conversion, you put those two words together. Its about punishing our children, trying to convince our children theyre not what they are. Youre saying this was a calculation, political calculation. Everything he does is a political calculation. Hes a politician. Youre a politician, too. Its true. His calculations are to the detriment of the people of new jersey. The one difference is he is driven by his singular ambition to become the nominee for president of the United States and the people of new jersey are going to be left behind. You can see it in everything he does. If youre watching, he vetoed Womens Health funding. He vetoed funding for plan the parenthood. It was a purely new jersey voters love him. His Approval Ratings are high. Hes doing very well. The people, the political analysts, i dont like to predict anything, says hes cruising to reelection, that youre not going to beat him. Whats the problem . Are new jersey voters getting hoodwinked . Do they not realize what theyre getting in Chris Christie . People in new jersey and in general dont focus on the election until after labor day traditionally. When you talk to people and they realize, when they know because of this governor, we have property taxes that have gone up 20 , we have one of the highest rates of unemployment in the nation. The highest extremely high. In the regioregion. Under this governor, were one of the worst states to do businesses. Our rankings have actually dropped as a good place to do business. This is a governor who tries to portray himself as a social moderate but hes anything but. Hes antimarriage equality. Antichoice, antipay equity. He called it senseless bureaucracy. People are struggling in new jersey under the crushing burden of property taxes. 400,000 people are out of work. They dont have time to focuses on the election yet. Okay. Are you going to do e events with cory booker . Actually we already have. Cory and i have done a walking tour of newark. Cory has been a great validater. Are new jersey democrats fighting hard enough against Chris Christie, or have they rolled over . I would say the Democratic Party is fractured in new jersey. There definitely is an ideological schism in the Democratic Party, and, yes, i think that that has been problematic. Meaning they have not fought him hard enough . Are they coopted by christie . Let me just say this. I have always done lets put it this way. I ran against the political bosses when i first ran for the assembly. People said id never win and i did. I did the same for the senate. Yeah, i ruffled a few feathers, but i will always stand up for what i believe in. There are those who for them politics is transactional. Thats not who i am. I will always stand up for the working people of new jersey. Those are the people that this governor has left behind and his policies hurt him. Josh barro, business insider, a friend of mine, said youre not doing enough public events. Are you campaigning hard enough for this . Oh, my. I was fundraising in other states other than new jersey. Have private events i go to that are not open to the press. If theyre not oepen to the press, theyre not listed on the public schedule. Rest assured im out of the house from 8 00 a. M. To 10 00 or 11 00 at night. How is fundraising coming . Its more difficult in new jersey than it is outside of new jersey, i will say that. Do you think thats because people are scared of Chris Christie . All i can tell you is what people say to me. There are those that say to me they are afraid to contribute because he is retaliatory. That he will seek retribution. When Chris Christie was elect in 2010, i was first woman majority leader. Republican senators used to talk to me. I remember seeing a republican senator come out of Chris Christies office visibly shaken and perspiring and saying, you know, i shouldnt be treated this way. He really its not about respect. Its about fear and loathing. Democratic state senator barbara buono. Strong words about new jersey governor chris krchristie. The cia releasing redacted documents has to do with the currently unfolding crisis in egypt, when we come back. Nocharge scheduled maintenance. Check. And heres the kicker. 0 apr for 60 months. And who got it . This guy. And who got it . This guy. And who got it . This guy. Thats right. [ male announcer ] its the car you wont stop talking about. Ever. Hurry in to the volkswagen best. Thing. Ever. Event. And get 0 apr for 60 months, now until september 3rd. Thats the power of german engineering. And get 0 apr for 60 months, now until september 3rd. Trust your instincts to make the call. 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You want to know whats really driving the white house approach to dealing with the chaos unfolding in egypt right now . One theory being floated on Egyptian State television this week by a former Constitutional Court justice involves president obamas brother being one of the coordinators and founders of a Muslim Brotherhood investment. The idea being that somehow the president of the United States is through blood relations a secret Muslim Brotherhood supporter, an idea to adadapt, dont think it would clear editorial standards. People have been killed in an escalating conflict in between what are the countrys ruling military forces and supporter mohamed morsi, the Muslim Brotherhood leader ousted from power last month. Amid that, pretty much everyone engaged in this fight in egypt right now is convinced utterly that the United States is already secretly aiding their enemies. Mark lynch of Foreign Policy took note of the historical level, writing, longtime observers of egyptian rhetoric have been taken aback by the vitreal and sheer lunacy, the current wave of antiamerican rhetoric. The rhetoric spans the political spectrum denouncing the United States is politically useful to every egyptian faction. Its easy to look at that kind of stuff and dismiss it, oh, its the wacky conspiracy theories of the arab street, people in that region are add t addicted to antiamericanism. We get news like we got today to remind us why conspiracy theories are so powerful. The cia declassified a document showing that 60 years ago they did, in fact, help eng neuroa coup. A military coup that overthrew thenprime minister mosadeq was carried out under cia direction as an act of u. S. Foreign policy. Mosadeq, head of a democratically elected government, was nonetheless regarded by the u. S. As a sinister and dangerous character, subject to communist influence. Heres a report from the im not making this up camel news caravan, a news Program Sponsored by camel cigarettes that aired on nbc just weeks before the cia engineered coup that ousted thenprime minister of iran. Irans mosadeq who creates strength through received 99 9 10 of the vote. When mosadeq has a problem with the parliament, he goes to the people for a referendum to have it dissolved. There is no secret ballot. In fact, people supporting mosadeq vote in one place, people opposed vote in another. Understandably, few oppose the skinny old man who controls the army and the police, and the supervisors at the opposition voting place have nothing to supervise. Final returns in tehran, votes to dissolve the dually elected parliament. 67 votes against. Mosad mosadeq has won with communist support. Can he get rid of his dangerous new friends . Thats what the runup to the cia engineered iranian coup looked like on american television. We knew for years the u. S. Played a role in that coup. Six years after the fact we know officially from the cia, itself, they decided to get rid of the head of the democratically elected government in iran. With a completely Brutal Police force at his disposal. So lets keep all of this in mind as we watch the crisis in egypt unfold. Joining me now is nbc news contributor, author of the upcoming book the ministry of guidance invites you not to stay an American Family in iran. Iran and egypt, different language, different histories. Broadly, in the region in the middle east, the u. S. Has had this role for 50 of 60 years. As you watch the rhetoric out of egypt and the american involvement, given the iranian experience, how do you make sense of how people are viewing the americans as an actor in that region . Its what you said earlier about conspiracy theories gaining traction in the middle east or people thinking, wacky arabs or wacky persians believe anything. Conspiracy theories often come true at least from the perspective of iranians or arabs or turks or anyone else whos been following american involvement in the region. I mean, for years and years ever since my childhood, we knew the cia and the british, by the way, cia and the mi6 conspired to overthrow mosadeq. Everyone knew this. There are books written about it. Unless you were an american who was really interested in iran, you kind of didnt know about it or thought, oh, come on, thats a Conspiracy Theory, we wouldnt do that. This really just tells you, as a fact, now, that they did, theyre admitting it. Although the u. S. Did kind of express some regret for some involvement. Madeleine albright did. The president mentioned it in his cairo speech. Mentioned it in his cairo speech. Exactly. The thing thats really interesting is the relation between what happened in 1953 and the hostage crisis in 1979. Which all americans know about. Especially after the movie argo young, more americans know about it. How the two things are completely related. And how that came to happen after, you know yet we know we dont know the, the average american does know about the hostage crisis. Not necessarily what happened with mosadeq in 1953. Theres something similar in egypt which is the prehistory of 30 years of government apart from mubarak is known by every single egyptian everywhere. Exactly. We are now watching this little sliver of history play out and thinking why are they so mad at us . Exactly. Iran, weve had 35 years of no relations are iran. Nuclear crisis. We have all the kinds of fights we have with iran. Iran is the big enemy. And its because of these two events. First the coup then 79, the hostage crisis. Not necessarily the revolution, itself, but certainly the hostage crisis was related to the coup. The iranians were convinced the u. S. Was going to do the same thing in 79 s 79. It became a politicized event. The two are very related. The reason the americans want the iranians to apologize is the reason the iranians want the americans to apologize for the coup in the first place. If you look anywhere in the third world in the developing world where america has had an influence, whether south america, central america, look at vends wail lezuela, other co not just the middle east. Theres a deep, deep suspicion of what sometimes the full picture of that is occluded to us in the u. S. Nbc news contributor, thanks for your time. Thank you. Well be right back with click3. Of two aleve for six tylenol . Whats the catch . Theres no catch. You want me to give up my two aleve for six tylenol . No. For my knee pain, nothing beats my aleve. So, if youre sleeping in your contact lenses, what you wear to bed is your business. No. Ask about the air optix® contacts so breathable theyre approved for up to 30 nights of continuous wear. Serious eye problems may occur. Ask your doctor and visit airoptix. 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First Lady Michelle obama first tweeted a photo of this new dog in and the white house followed up with video announcement. Its a girl dog. The name is sunny. Its a portuguese water dog like the first dog, bo. Well bring you more details as they become available. First i want to share three awesomist things on the internet today. We begin with, of course, quadrocopters. Remote controlled super maneuverable high flying awesomeness. Theyre everywhere these days often with an hd videocamera attached bringing us new and spectacular views of places like niagara falls, falling high above the university of notre dame and australia. Its a matter of time before we saw our first quadrocopter deployed to get the elusively romantic low altitude flyby shot. It takes a steady hand. Oh, the memories that will last forever. The stitches, theyll come out in a week or two. The photographer who posted the video to youtube says no one was seriously injured. The bride and groom were good natured and insisted he post the video for the world to see. The second awesomest thing on the internet today from buzz feed. Its the rally in support of mayor bob filner of san diego. We brought you the ongoing story of bob filner before. Hes been charged by over a dozen women of committing all sorts of sexually harassing behavior. Hes been accused of being a serial groper and took a leave of or senabsence to undergo the. Theres even a group of people willing to publicly support the man. If youre wondering what kind of snappy things do you chant at a probob filner rally . What do we want . Due process. When do we want it . Now. What do we want . Due process. When do we want it . Now. Due process is good, but you know whats even better . Personal testimonials. I have not been the recipient of sloppy kisses. And i have met mr. Filner on many occasions. There are others who are, but ive never had that opportunity. So there you have it. And finally, understand the third awesomest thing on the internet today, you need to go all the way back to february 2004 when season 2, episode 5 of the shapell show aired on comedy central. Charlie murphy fotold the hollywood story about the time he and his crew played basketball with prince and the revolution. Never judge a book by its cover. Play ball. He was crossing. He was getting rebounds like charles barkley. Shoot it. Oh, prince the revolution won the game and inexplicably brought murphy and his crew back inside for pancake breakfast. Fast forward nine years and the actual artist, prince, using the handle thirdeye yngirl joined twitter. Friday he nearly broke the internet when he tweeted game blouses along with a youtube link to the new single breakfast can wait. Dave chapelle as Prince Holding a tray of pancakes. Heres part of the song. I apt tint trying to make yo blush but i wanted to tell you i think youre great i need another taste breakfast can wait thats not a joke. 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Each second that ticks by, every day that passes puts us further from the memory of 2012 and one day closer toward the midterms and one day closer to the beginning of the 2016 republican president ial primary. Which means as i speak to you, as the moments flutter by, the incentives to slowly shifting so your average republican politician, concerned chiefly with his or her political future, cannot help but conclude the smart logical rational thing to do is to pander by any means necessary to the increasingly selflathering conservative base. What the base wants is what they already want. Death to obama care. No matter how many people have to politely explain to them that ship has sailed, no matter how many Republican Party elites and donors and others warn them that threatening a shutdown or a default over defunding obama care will be an unmitigated disaster politically, not to mention for millions of people, though really who cares about them. They want it. The loudest voices they listen to want it. So today we have the heritage foundation. Unveiling its ninecity tour intended to drum up support for defunding the president s signature piece of legislation. More importantly, theres an internet meme. The right wing institution launching a stop obama care instagram campaign. Entrants include a fore lorn looking darrell issa holding up a blank sign and grumpy cat. This gun toting image from the movie ripd. Rest in peace department. We had to google it. If you didnt catch it in the theaters, youre not alone. It was the summers Biggest Box Office flops. A former operative say his own medical struggles changed his views on the legislation. Clint murphy who worked on john mccains 2008 campaign battled cancer and other issues including sleep apnea. Those experiences prompted him to turn from obama care adversary to supporter. When you say youre against it, youre saying you dont want people like me to have health insurance. Of course, heres the rub. Clint murphy isnt going to get the hearing with the relatively small committed group of dead enders who the ted cruzses of the world need to cultivate support with to be plausible 2016 gop nominees, and the defund obama care train rolls on faster and faster gathering speed with every passing moment, headed toward a collision with political reality and millions of sick and anxious people. Joining me now is a former member of mitt romneys Health Care Policy advisory group. Author of the blog on health care and entitlement reform. I want to show you what ron paul said about the government shutdown. It was indicative of this problem to me. He basically, heres what fox news saying, its a bad idea, well do it anyway. Check it out. I dont think shutting down the government is a good idea, but i do think that we were elected, conservatives were elected to try to stop this overreach, this government takeover of health care. If we do nothing, were just saying to the president , hey, you get your way. Is there any way, you are in this lonely class of people. Conservative wonks. Theres like a little bit of explainers we might call them. Youre just in this little world and you do your work with intellectual integrity, you believe what you believe in. You know the literature. But the avik roys of the world, the Republican Base is not reading it. Theyre not listening to whatever youre saying, heres way to fit obama care so it looks conservative and gets people the health care their want. They want to burn it to the ground. Is there any way to convince them otherwise . I think that even mike lee and ted cruz and those guys, why are they pursuing the shutdown strategy . They said its because once the subsidies for obama care start, then theres no turning back. Jim demint had an opped in the wall street journal and said were reaching the point of no return with obama care. If we held them to those statements heres what i dont understand about that. If the program is as much a disaster as people on the right are warning it will be, then i dont understand why letting it to actually be implemented wont be selfrefuting. Right . Even if the subsidies kim y ies and the whole thing is poorly engineered and poorly executed as everyone on the right is telling me its going to be, it will be a big policy disaster and the president is going to take a hit and the Democratic Party will, and theyll deserve to if it doesnt work for people. Why not let that go forward . Some people have that view that thats what should happen. Of course a law can be rewarding for some groups and punishing for some. Its not uniform in its effects. The concern of a lot of people on the right, there will be people who benefit. The people who benefit from the insurance subsidies in particular. The people not qualified for the subsidies, despite the laws efforts to do otherwise, those are the people who are going to be concerned and it will be a train wreck for them. But if a train wreck for them, like, if it is a train wreck for them, if you want to have a political cage match between two kinds of voters, one is someone who is making just above poverty, working class person who qualifies for a subsidy. One of them is a person with a lot more money. We saw their premiums jacked. Let me tell you whos going to win the political cage fight. If the concern is about the politics of this, its going to be the upper middle class person who saw their premium jacked whos going to make their representative scream bloody murder in washington, d. C. This isnt about policy, right . Its about destroying the president or its about taking a chunk of his hide out or its about just saying across this line, you shall not pass. As opposed to its definitely not that. There is a view. The view among the base, i think the typical view of a base voter for the republicans is we had a Free Market Health care system before obama care was passed. Obama care was passed. It was a government takeover of the Health Care System. Thats what weve got to stop. If we dont, weve lost the war against big government. I must interject neither of those things are true. We did not have thats the that is what theyre reflecting. Thats exactly the thing. What i try to do when im the polite explainer is to say we actually had a heavily governmentinvolved system to begin with, since at least 1965, possibly before, arguably before. The Affordable Care act is an incremental advance of that but not the government takeover, you know, if you cant look at it in isolation, you have to look at this whole, you know what do people say to you when you say that . Do you get traction as being a polite explainer . They are persuaded, but, you know, im doing so in relatively small audiences, not to hundreds of millions of people. Right . I think when you show the data, the data is very clear. If you look, for example, Government Spending on health care in the United States, its the fourth highest in the developed world. Fourth highest in the world, therefore. Theres only three countries in the developed world that spend more in terms of public spending per capita on health care in the United States. Thats in 2010, before the before the Affordable Care act. When i exflan, people start to scratch their heads, youre on to something. I want to talk about what is the path from talking to a small amount of people to millions of people for the conservative wonk avik roys of the world, and wonk ezra klein is going to join me and were going to script to you a strategy to get you out of this little box. Right when we come back. We provide the exact individualization that your body needs. 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Temporary. 24 hour. Lots of tablets. One pill. You decide. Prevent acid with prevacid 24hr. All right. Joining me now, the editor of the one and only wonk blog at the Washington Post, ezra klein. Ezra, i wanted you to respond to avik. As someone who follows this incredibly closely, is there enough time to bridge the gap between perception and reality of what the Affordable Care act is and represents in american politics . In time to avert something disastrous and catastrophic this fall when possibly republicans try to force some kind of shutdown . I question your premise, sir. Please. I dont think bridging the gap matters that much. Number one, two the republican shutdown threat, its not going to happen. They dont have the support in house. The elders in senate, rational minds in the senate clearly seem to be id be very surprised. Doesnt mean it cant happen. If i was placing nimy bet, id t a probability on the republicanled shutdown. Maybe this prediction will have egg on my face in a couple months, but there it is. The secondary part is about bridging this sort of broad perceptual gap. Often contributes to, as much as hes a good guy and wonk, i think it would be fair to say he emphasizes the negative and doesnt always give a balanced portrayal of the law. In a broad sense, i dont think this political conversation over the law matters very much. Come october and come months after that, we are going to see the actual law begin, and most people will never interface with something called obama care. In california, they will see this thing called covered california. In Washington State it will be i think the Washington Health connector or something. It will either work for them or be affordable for them or wont be. It wont be about the political conversation. That i somewhat agree with which was the point i was trying to make it avik. Let. Play out. If its as bad as you say it is, wont it be bad for the president . I do think there is a way that kind of narratives of disaster do get caught up into the media universe, and ezra, particularly because so few people interface with actually the thing, itself, is does seem to me it would be possible that a media narrative of disaster does get created even embedded by people who actively want to see the thing fail to point you do create political, real political backlash that then does have policy consequences because people then in washington are trying to fix something that isnt actually broken. I think one thing to bring up there is when you pass a law on party lines, that tension, that dynamic is more present. If theres they could have passed it with republican votes, everyone would have loved it. We can look at 2009 another time. I think from an objective from a Political Science standpoint, thats the challenge. Right . When you have one party that is opposed to the law and didnt support it to begin with, and has no stake in its success, and one part does can i say this . Except for the stake of the human beings who have when you go out trying to get something not to work. Ezra, you at some point have to eventually pass laws. Yes, its true. It would have been a good idea for the party that was if power in 2009 to have tried to come to some compromise. I mean, one of the things may maybe could have done is to base their Health Care Plan off the health care passed by a prominent president ial candidate. This gets a little ridiculous. The republicans refuse to come to the table to deal with a plan, they themselves proposed earlier. Clearly a set of republican ideas were involved in them, though. Then they say, well, this was a partisan plan you passed, so we cant support it. Look, it is completely the case, chris, you could have a media narrative. In fact, i almost assure you you will have a set of media narratives based off very real implementation. My guess is the Affordable Care act will not be a big boone and will be a net negative for democrats in 2014. Just as happened in Medicare Part d, a very tough bill and rollout in its first year, as the bill gets on its feet, it begins delivering a fair amount of benefits. Let me make a quick point here. Actually become very important because it does become essentially impossible to repeal, although it doesnt become impossible to reform or improve. The Morning Consult did a poll, where they showed if you ask people, 1,000 likely voters, whats the biggest problem with the Health Care System in america . 75 it was the cost of insurance. 11 said it was the uninsured. So will the Affordable Care act make insurance less expensive . Its a big outstanding question. The other thing about that, if people dont care about the uninsured, there are still tens of millions of People Living through absolutely unnecessary misery and i care about them and think a decent social contract and Decent Society should care abou