donbas and ukrainians did fight. that's how we ended up with a cease-fire line and the minsk agreements. ever since then, ukraine has been in a battle with russia. there's been a front line, young people sent and a few people killed every week. this is a national sense of identity far stronger than anything that existed before. >> let's talk about what nato can do and will do or what they will and won't say. the decision to be ambiguous about if you do chemical weapons, that changes the calculus. if you're changing the calculus, you're not involved. that must mean they are involved. what do you want putin to read into that? >> it's wise not to be explicit. let putin guess. we have capabilities that could