And return to the country during the eightyear period and provisions for Stricter Border security and background checks for employers. The white house is denying they leaked the proposal. And its just a backup plan saying they prefer a Bipartisan Team come up with something that works of t works. As you expect, republicans quickly pounced. Marco rubio already called it dead on arrival and then took a break for water. And senator rand paul had this to say. This is the president torp o torpedoing his own plan. When they come out and say my way or the highway and if congress doesnt ask ill put it on the desk and say pass it now, thats no way to get it done. And then hell blame it on us. But it seems to me to show that really the president really doesnt want Immigration Reform. The president doesnt want Immigration Reform. Only in the bizarro world of congress can you be labeled not serious about an issue by proposing legislation specifically focused on that issue. Thank you, senator paul. We need a voice of reason to sort all of this out. Lets take it to the bank. Dana millbank, columnist for washington post, how are you, sir . Good. You couldnt find a voice of reason so you had to come with me. Hell be here all week. So its president is talking about eight years to citizens p citizenship. This seems to be a fairly punitive measure, beaten ruin joe oto the punch. Take eight years. Is this part of why rubio is so upset, he cant be anymore punitive than the president has proposed . I dont think thats whats going on in rubios mind. Hes going to use this as an excuse, perhaps, to walk away from the plan that hes already beginning to put on the table there with Chuck Schumer and dick durbin and the others. I think this is a big mistake by the white house, if they it leak it. Whoever leaked it should consider self deportation. Because this is going to get them further away from the goal here. I think what rubio and the others are objecting to is in their provision, they have certain checks and balances, so that if Border Security is not in place, then the other thing doesnt go ahead. It doesnt appear thats in this plan, and thats probably why hes reacting this way. This thing is so delicate and sensitive, anything thats going to upset it as this does is really not helpful. Why dont you take a little bit about why this was a bad move by the white house, if, indeed, they did leak this piece, and a lot of people say who else would have leaked it. But also want to talk about how republican lawmakers get their voters to come in line. Because for a lot of voters, highly passionate issue. Highly contentious. They are not going for the sort of amnesty plan, as they would call it. So how do republican lawmakers get their voters in line before hispanics join the Democratic Party as blacks did in the 60s and make it very difficult electorally in the future . Well, its a very delicate dance theyve got to do here. And thats what rubio, mccain, lindsay graham, are doing with their proposal here. And theyre getting hammered for it, to a large extent. And thats what im a little worried about, is rubio, because hes interested in 2016, is going to look for any excuse to walk away from this and say, well, i tried. There is a suspicion. If i can interpret what rand paul is saying into english, they have a fear that the democrats just want to use this as an issue to keep the latinos in their camp and not actually have an immigration deal, appear to have an immigration deal and not have one. So they can continue to solidify the latinos. Dana, i guess the other way of looking at this from the white house is a stand point of this has to be adversarial when it comes to rubios role in this. Because he has sort of separated himself from what has been the republican mainstream on immigration for the last half decade or so, really going out on a limb. And if you look at the psychology of todays republican party, its not lets team up with obama, lets give into obama, lets make concessions to obama. Its lets fight obama. So the more this looks like a fight between rubio and obama, where obama makes a totally unreasonable demand and rubio backs away and maybe come back together in a week or few weeks, maybe there is a longterm dance playing out here like that. Steve, i think that would be the more benign way of looking at it. Its probably giving too much credit to think they actually skeemd it out that way. But lets look at this proposal. Youve got these eight senators on board with here. Already youve got all kinds of griping from House Republicans about that proposal. Which would tend to pull it more to the right. So if youre looking at it in that sort of mac vil anyway, yes, some sense in having the democrats but pull it left so we can all fight it out and wind up exactly where that compromise is in the first place. Because thats the only way youre going to get this sort of thing done, is by having everybody on board like that. Dana, lets go back to your first point of this potentially being a bad political move. I dont quite understand. And like you, apparently. I believe that this was probably a white house leak and bad idea. I dont understand why, if they were pretty much reassured that both groups, the senate group and then the house working group, were making progress, and theres indication they were, why they would choose to insert themselves into such a delicate process, when they were assured that good work was being done. Let me play this sound from face the nation, white house chief of staff talking about it. We will be prepared with our own plan, if these ongoing talks between republicans and democrats up on capitol hill break down. There is no evidence theyve broken down yet. Were continuing to support that. Were involved in those efforts by providing them Technical Assistance and providing them ideas. And i hope that republicans and democrats up there dont get involved in some kind of typical washington back and forth sideshow here. But theyre getting involved in the sideshow, because the white house leaked this new plan. I dont get it. Help me understand it. I think what were talking about here is not one of these orchestrated leaks where the white house top officials at the white house are trying to float a trial balloon. This is a leak in the sense of something they didnt want, actually, to dribble out. You have David Axelrod saying this looks like a mistake to have this out there. Because, look, as i was discussing with steve, you can make an argument that you want to sort of give everybody some room to maneuver here by having something out on the left, something out on the right. But the truth of the matter is, this is sort of poisoning the well right now. And immigration is the one issue where theres some hope we can get something done. Right. So i dont think anybody really really wants to blow this up just yet. Dana, speak to that a little bit. How optimistic should we be well see Immigration Reform. I was feeling progress, i was feeling optimistic, but then when you have rubio come out and say this is dead on arrival and also seems to me the longer this debate hangs out there, the more hardened the sort of talking points against comprehensive Immigration Reform are becoming. So what do you think . Whats your assessment . Are we actually going to see some sort of a deal . I feel like whenever i predict were going to see anything good happen, im always disappointed. So i would love to join in your optimism, but ill believe it when i see it. After rubio and that group of eight senators came out with their plan, he got hammered by Rush Limbaugh and others like that. And he said, hey, look, nervously saying when president obama comes out with his plan, you know, and if the ultimate product is not like this, then im walking away from it. Hes looking for the slightest excuse to walk away from it. And so he can say, i tried. And then hes back solid with the republican base. So dana, you think even if this particular white house proposal hadnt been leaked, rubio was getting cold feet and looking for a way to walk away from this . Certainly he wants to have it both ways. Hes clearly in the way hes articulated that to Rush Limbaugh and others, will look for an excuse to say he tried. Dana millbank, thank for stopping by. Might pleasure. Up next, what newlyin sealed documents reveal about one of the most notorious gangsters of alltime. And im not talking about biggy smiles. Well go inside the mind of alleged crime boss and killer, whi Whitey Bulger, next. With the spark miles card from capital one, bjorn earns unlimited rewards for his Small Business. Take these bags to room 12 please. [ garth ] bjorns Small Business earns double miles on every purchase every day. Produce delivery. [ bjorn ] just put it on my spark card. [ garth ] why settle for less . Ahh, oh [ garth ] great businesses deserve unlimited rewards. Heres your wake up call. [ male announcer ] get the spark Business Card from capital one and earn unlimited rewards. Choose double miles or 2 cash back on every purchase every day. Whats in your wallet . [ crows ] now wheres the Snooze Button . [ crows ] ive always had to keep my eye on her. But, i didnt always watch out for myself. With so much noise about health care. I tuned it all out. With unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters. My individual health profile. Not random statistics. They even reward me for addressing my health risks. So im doing fine. But shes still going to give me a heart attack. Were more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. Thats health in numbers. Unitedhealthcare. I got this rat, this annoying [ bleep ] rat, and it brings up questions. You know, see, bill, like, youre the new guy. Girlfriend. Why dont you stay in a bar, at night i got your numbers. Jack nicholson playing Frank Costello in the film the departed. The character loosely based on one of the most notorious mob bosses, Whitey Bulger, wanted for 19 murders, drug dealing, Money Laundering and extortion. Bulger fled boston back in 1994, sparking one of the biggest man hunts in u. S. History. He was number two on the fbis most wanted list, behind only osama bin laden, and he remained on the lam for 16 years until he was finally captured in june of 2011, living with his girlfriend in a rentcontrolled apartment in santa monica, california. Joining us is dick lehrer who broke the story with the boston fbi as a reporter for the boston globe, one of the formost experts, and author of a book, follow up to black mass which will be a movie starring johnny depp as whitey. Thanks for being here, dick. I guess reading this book, one thing that jumps out at me, you have the whole story established in black mass about the aligns with the fbi and whitey and how the fbi basically let whitey become this notorious crime boss. But this is also a story about the failure of the political system over decades. You have whitey in federal prison for bank robbery in the late 50s, early 60s and theres the speaker of the house of the u. S. Representatives, john mccormick, a guy from south boston. Robert drinen, a congressman from massachusetts in the 70s as the dean of the Boston College law school vouching for him. And his brother, billy, who was the most powerful politician in massachusetts for all these years. It seems like this is a story about politics as much as it is about the fbi. It is. When you look at the long life of Whitey Bulger, you end up Opening Doors into many other worlds, politics being a big one. And Whitey Bulger, when he was doing nine years in the federal prison system for robbing banks, he had advantage no other few other inmates, if any, had, and thats access to power through his brother bill. They were lucky enough to have one of the most powerful men in the country, House Speaker john mccormick, advocating for him in terms of accelerating his way through the prison system. And thats the kind of thing that we were able to, you know, uncover and develop and put into the full life story of Whitey Bulger as a result of his vast prison life which had never been looked at before. And they get him out and then he goes right back to his old life and then becomes the top boss in boston, in new england, really. I wonder if you could tell us about the circumstances of his capture. Towards the end of your book, you have fascinating stuff about his life in santa monica at this apartment complex where i guess there is this 25yearold guy who had gone to Boston University but didnt really know the bulger story and kind of latched on to this kid and would talk his ear off and eventually this kid plays a role in bringing him down. Can you talk about how he actually was brought down two years ago . Oh, sure. Yeah. Youre speaking about josh bond, who was a resident manager in Whitey Bulgers apartment complex and ended up living next door to whitey and his girlfriend, kathryn greg. And whitey, who was really hiding in plain sight as an ordinarylooking old guy, bald with a beard, struck up a friendship with josh, who had no idea who he was. But after in june of 2011, after the fbi tried a whole new round of Public Service announcements regarding americas most wanted gangster, the fbi zeroed in on whitey in the apartment complex, and they walked into the Managers Office and showed a picture to josh and said do you know in this guy and he said sure, charlie gasco. Yeah, and also Whitey Bulger. And in the next hour josh ended up paying a key role in the kind of making it up as they wept along, trying to confirm whether whitey was in the apartment and once they had done that, getting him to come out and come down to the basement garage. And it was a little bit of a surprising to see that a civilian and a young guy like josh bond ended up coming kind offing up with the ruse to get whitey out of the apartment when you had all of these seasoned fbi agents hovering about. I cant wait to read your book. Steve is halfway finished and after hes done ill have a crack at it. Congratulations on that. Thank you. But help me understand a little bit of whitey psychologically, one of the big reasons why he was able to stay in power and out of jail for so long, he was informing. Working with the fbi for decades. And part of me understands this. It gives him a certain protection. And part of me does not understand, because it has no relation to what criminals generally do. What most criminals generally do. Why was he informing, and was he perhaps aware of his longer game, because right now we have a judge opining on whether or not hes immune from the crimes he committed while he was informing. So perhaps there will be an extra dividend from being an informant. So just break some of that down for us. Sure. Yeah. I think youre getting at i think what makes, you know, Whitey Bulger probably the most significant crime figure in our time, if not the 20th century. You mentioned his body count. Hes being charged with 19 murders, and theres probably more. You know, he can match body counts with any crime boss, dilling dillinger, gatti, anyone who is a virtual household name when it comes to american crime. But whitey did something no one else has ever done. And thats what youre getting at. He harnessed the power of a corrupt fbi in boston so they had his back for two decades or more. Which is an amazing asset. If youre a crime boss and you can count on fbi agents to tip you off to investigations and what not, and to that other Law Enforcement or to the someone else in the underworld who is ratting you out, and then he becomes number one on your own hit list. That was the dynamic that whitey set in play that makes him epic and successful as a crime boss. He was he was brought into the fbi as part of their socalled top etch long informant program. But he quickly manipulated it so it was in his favor. And never gave them anywhere near as much value as he got from the fbi. Thats whats so fascinating here in a historic sense, i think. Dick, going back to the circumstances surrounding his capture, i understand a sort of racist, anti obama rant and his frequent use of the n word tipped josh and another woman in the apartment complex off to the fact that there was something off about this guy. But help me understand. Hes irishamerican, a member of a group that was historically persecuteded in this country, as well. What are the roots of that deepseated racism that he apparently has . Well, gosh. You know, that just thats part of Whitey Bulger and who he is. Im in the sure its necessarily, you know, his ethnic, his irishness. But he just came up that way on the streets of boston. And it obviously stayed with him in a hard way. And it was part of his undoing. He made a reference to its a wellpublicized story at this point, a woman from iceland who was a frequent visitor to santa monica where whitey was living and hiding in plain sight, had had struck up a friendship in santa monica over a stray cat that whitey and his girlfriend took care. They both liked pets. And liked cats. But what truly embedded whitey in this womans mind, she had in one of their encounters, started talking in an admiring way about president obama. And whitey flipped out on her couldnt believe that she could admire a black han as being the stuff of the white house. And that just really stayed with her when you fast forward a couple years to june 2011 and shes hearing reports about, you know, this americas most wanted, and Whitey Bulger and his girlfriend. And it kicked right in for her between the cat and his racism. So it really in the end, you know, had a big part of his fall. Dick, theres this weird phenomenon you talked about,der inger, where we lionize these fugatives who manage to evade capture for so long. Tb cooper, bonnie and clyde. What was it about Whitey Bulger that made him such a compelling figure . I know the boston media gave him some cover for quite some time. You know, what was it about him . You say he wasnt actually a very nice guy. No, hes a monster. Why did we latch on to him for so long . Well, part of it was his longevity. He really had a long life in boston as an underworld figure. And for the longest time, and this goes until about the late 0s, and, you know, its hard to go back in time and realize he was he was portrayed as a robin hood of his neighborhood. You know, a good bad guy. He helped foster that by some of the things he did. But also the fbi that we now know was, you know his Public Relations arm for him. And putting that kind of thing out there. That he kept drugs out of his neighborhood, and the opposite was true. He was overseeing the highflying 80s and cocaine that was just ruining south boston. So theres that piece of it. The sort of many faces of Whitey Bulger in terms of, you know, hes 83 now. He hung around. He wasnt just a onecase wonder or Something Like that. He rose to the top. He was bigger, more powerful than the mafia in boston and went through this unbelievable makeover when the unthinkable, you know, tumbled out in the late 80s that he was not only an informant for the fbi, but he had managed to turn the fbi into, you know, basically an extension of his gang. You know, it becomes mindboggli mindboggling. And he is responsible for an enormous amount of damage to the nations, you know, top Law Enforcement agency of the fbi but also to, you know, countless number of families in so many different ways in boston. You know, its one of these weird flukes with publishing. There are actually two new Whitey Bulger books coming out right now. But ive got to say, this one, folks, this is the one to read. Dick lehrer and jerry oneill have been on this story longer than any other reporter. If you are interested in Whitey Bulger, i couldnt give as high a recommendation. Dick lehrer, thanks for joining us. Up next is the answer to americas great political divide. Bacon . Yes. [ male announcer ] why is kelloggs crunchy nut so delicious . Because every flake is doubletoasted. Splashed with sweet honey. And covered in rich doubleroasted peanuts. Mmm. [ hero ] yummy. [ male announcer ] kelloggs crunchy nut. Its super delicious more likes. More tweets. So, beginning today, my son brock and his whole team will be our new senior social media strategists. Any questions . Since we make radiator valves wouldnt it be better if we just let fedex help us to expand to new markets . Hmm gotta admit thats better than a few likes. I dont have the door code. Whos that . He won a contest online to be ceo for the day. How am i supposed to run a business here without an office . [ male announcer ] fast, reliable deliveries worldwide. Fedex. We dont let frequent heartburn come between us and what we love. So if youre one of them people who gets heartburn and then treats day after day. Block the acid with prilosec otc and dont get heartburn in the first place [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. Zero heartburn. And dont get heartburn in the first place so if ydead battery,t tire, need a tow or lock your keys in the car, geicos emergency roadside assistance is there 24 7. Oh dear, i got a flat tire. Hmmm. Uh. Yeah, can you find a take where its a bit more dramatic on that last line, yeah . Yeah i got it right here. Someone help me i have a flat tire well its good. Good for me. What do you think . Geico. Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. 14 who the [ bleep ] are these people . I hit the streets to find one of these elusive aprofessors. Theyre screwing it up. Doing a terrible job. I havent approved Anything Congress has done since perhaps 1970 . Stinks. Statistically, there had to be someone who approved of congress. No. No. No, not at all. Yes. What . Yes. Yes, i do. And there he was. He represents the 14 . An anomaly of sorts at a time of Political Polarization in this country. Where both sides generally only agree on one thing, which is that the other one stinks. But facebooks latest attempt to unite likeminded americans may actually be on to something. Somewhat controversial, because of privacy concerns. The graph search function allows members to isolate other members based on key words expressed in their public profiles. Think of it like google for social networking. Anyway, when he checked it out, time magazines joel stein found a liberal who appreciates Rush Limbaughs opinions, a mother and gun control advocate who also likes the nra and a p. E. T. A. Supporter who enjoys bacon and owns a vintage fur coat. What do these anecdotes tell us . Perhaps maybe america isnt quite as divided as washington would have us all believe. Then again, maybe we are. Well, i think in general next topic. No. I mean, i do think most americans are able to see sort of both sides of an argument. And it is the rare person who believes in the ideal logically pure version. I think on gay rights we have moved in the direction of greater equality. But on some things like abortion and guns, i dont know that we have shifted so much as the political terrain and the way were debating issues has shifted. Typically, whichever party seems like its further out on the extremes is the one losing the debate. So back when the abortion debate was more about things like lateterm abortion, partialbirth abortion, allowing 12yearolds to have abortions without parental notifications, democrats seemed further out there, so they were not doing well in public opinion. Now thats shifted where were arguing more about planned parenthood funding, republicans on a limb there. And i think also on the gun debate, for the longest time the nra was able to convince people liberals really wanted to confiscate everyones guns, and democrats played into that by a large extent, arguing about whether the Second Amendment really guaranteed the right to own a firearm. Now i think that were focusing on specific proposals that people can wrap their heads around, that terrain has shifted. So i do think ill save my rant on mandatory voting and how that would change things for the better for another day. But i think generally people are more sort of open to hearing both sides of the debate and not totally ideologically pure. We felt compelled to be tribalistic about politics. And there is probably a lot of reasons why we have done that. But i really like the idea of showing how contradictory we are within ourselves. How nuanced and complicated some of our beliefs and likes and interests are. And you know, its hard these days, because its important for many reasons for us to be team d or team r, team obama, team x republican and check boxes as you go down. When as you said, most of us arent actually like that. And whether we admit it openly or not, most of us have complicated views on things. The fact that im like an athiest conservative who is pro gay rights and pro life, you know walking proof that we can have different ideas that youre not expected to have. And if facebook helps you sort of figure that out, even just among your friends, i think thats probably a good thing. Yeah, it is. Look, the sort of contradictions between when you start asking people about individual issues, you could go through any number of issues with a voter. Do you think taxes on the rich, should they go up, down, a lot end up polling well and youll say this is probably a democratic voter, probably a liberal. And find out they voted for every republican since coolidge. There used to be i think the problem i have, the reason im not so optimistic about this is that splitticket voting has steadily been declining now for more than a generation. Were at sort of the lowest level ever in terms of people who vote for a democrat for president or libertitarian. Thats not happening. A real sorting out of the parties, culturally, eat logically. You can have these conversations divorced, the republicans from this, the democrats divorced from that. And youll get these funky mix of positions from people. But as soon as it returns to the political realm, im on team democrat, im on Team Republican and im going to work backwards from there. Thats right. And there is this sort of intellectual gerrymandering in terms of where we get our information. So the Source Matters more than the actual information. If x source says something, for certain people it must be wrong and certain people it must be right and makes it impossible to communicate because its like were dealing with different sets of facts. Well, if following our scintillating conversation has you feeling like you need a water break, fear not. Marco rubios pac, reclaim america is offering a marco rubio water bottle if you donate 25 or more. Thats an expensive water bottle. We asked our facebook friends, by 2016, will this all be water under the bridge . Our friend Jennifer Gregory wants to know if the water bottle comes filled with koolaid. Ouch. Love her, jennifer. Very clever. If youre thirsty to tell us what you think, head over to facebook thecyclemsnbc. Like us and join the conversation. And big, big twitter news, folks. I have gotten rid of the 1. Im now krystalball, period, end of story. Say goodbye to krystalball 1. There are challenging questions about where the church should go from here and meet a man who nearly became a priest himself but is now asking why do we need priests at all . [ dad ] find it . Ya. Alright, another one just like that. Right in the old bucket. Good toss see thats much better that was good. You had your shoulder pointed, you kept your eyes on your target. Lets do it again watch me. Just like that one. [ male announcer ] the durability of the volkswagen passat. Pass down something he will be grateful for. Good arm. Thats the power of german engineering. Back to you. Thats not much, you think. Except its 2 every year. Go to etrade and find out how much our advice and guidance costs. Spoiler alert its low. Its guidance on your terms, not ours. Etrade. Less for us. More for you. St. Peters square was the place to be this weekend as 50,000 jammed the square for one of the final appearances of Pope Benedict xvi. As soon as he resigned, i knew i definitely wanted to come and witness it. Im proud to be an american and i wanted to let the pope know hes supported by all of us from america. The pope asked followers to pray for him and his successor, but as the world prepares for a new pope set to be installed by easter, our next guest says theres no point in calling a conclave, because the institution of the priesthood is entirely made up. With us now is New York Times bestselling author and Pulitzer Prize winner gary wills. He spent five years in seminary and nearly became a priest himself but now challenges that basic tenet of the church in his book why priests a failed tradition. Gary, i want to read back to you the first line of the New York Times book review on your book, which reads gary wills wants us to know that he really bears no animus towards priests. Truly. And the point that youre making, of course, isnt an anti priest argument. Its a theological one that sort of suggests that maybe historically, priests werent exactly the direction the Catholic Church was supposed to head in. And its not really a new argument. You know, christians have argued for centuries over the role of the clergy and whether one needs a direct conduit to god. So just unpack your position a little bit for us. Well, its true. Im a great admirer of priests and friends of them. And they can do anything. Preach, teach, instruct catechism. St. Paul had over a dozen ministries. Healers. Prophe prophets. None of those were priesthood. He never mentions priests. There are no priests. What set the priests apart from the rest of the body of christ, as if he were not part of that, was the idea that only he can consecrate bread and wine and make it the body and blood of jesus. Well, even in the fifth century, st. Augustine, my principle thinker hero, said, its ridiculous to think that youre eating jesus when you take this. He said you dont eat jesus. You dont digest him. When he handed out the bread and said this is my body, it was a bond with him. But it was his body handing it out. His body was there. He didnt say eat my hand. Eat the bread as a symbol of your union with me. That was augustines attitude. And that continued to be the attitude of a number of people down through the middle ages until a tremendous revolt at the top started and all of these people were called heretics. Theres a whole history of the middle ages, in which there is an assertion of power coming out of the new institution of the papacy saying that this is not simply a symbol. This is not an infigora, as they said, this is literal. And then in the 13th century, they got a very clever explanation. Thomas aconfineis was in love with aristotle and said he distinguishes substance and accidents. You have a dog that is a substance. Might be white, black, big, small. So you can see the substance is different from the accidents. But never said they could be separate. You cant have a dog who is no color, no size, et cetera. He has to have some accidents. What thomas came along and said, we can actually separate them. You can have substance of jesus and accidents of bread and wine, and theyre totally separate. One doesnt invade the other. You just have to take that when you eat the accident, you get the substance. Youre not really eating bread, youre eating jesus. Would you be interested i guess speaking more practically, you know, i assume were going to have priests for a long time, as long as we have the Catholic Church. In reforming the priesthood, opening it up to women, opening it up to married men, that sort of thing. Do you think thats a good step maybe the church should be taking . Well, i dont want to open up the priesthood to women. Because i dont want priests. I want women to be teachers and leaders and counselors, and they are in my church. My Catholic Church. See, the problem is that if you are only a priest ordained from above, from bishops who are appointed by the pope, and tells you that you alone in that community are able to change these accidents, then the woman priest will be subject to all the kinds of disciplines and nonsensical directives that the males are. What we need see, all priests were originally chosen by their congregations and so are the bishops. Ambrose, when they said in milan, we want you for your bishop, he said, i cant be that, im a secular ruler, not even baptized. I said, doesnt matter. We want you. Now, they were the body of christ. And so he had to obey. The same was true of augustine. When he gave out communion, he said, receive what you haare, e body of christ. So when they told him, you are the bishop, he couldnt leave. And bishops could not become popes, because they could never leave their people. They were wed to them. Okay, gary wills, interesting stuff. Thank you very much for joining us. My pleasure. Up next, gearing up for t theors oscars with an unusual ha harvard class. Even more surprising, they let torat roam their hallowed halls. We tease. We break out new behr ultra with stainblocker from the home depot. The best selling paint and primer in one that now eliminates stains. So it paints over stained surfaces, scuffed surfaces, just about any surface. What do you say we go where no paint has gone before, and end up some place beautiful. More saving. More doing. Thats the power of the home depot. Behr ultra. Now with advanced stain blocking, only at the home depot, and only 31. 98 a gallon. Stress sweat is different than ordinary sweat. It smells worse. Get 4x the protection against stress sweat. Introducing new secret clinical strength stress response scent. [ angry gibberish ] [ justin ] mulligan sir. Mulligan. Take a mulligan. I took something for my sinuses, but i still have this cough. [ male announcer ] truth is, a lot of sinus products dont treat cough. They dont . [ male announcer ] nope, but alka seltzer plus severe sinus does it treats your worst sinus symptoms, plus that annoying cough. [ angry gibberish ] [ fake coughs ] sorry that was my fault sir. [ male announcer ] alka seltzer plus severe sinus. [ breathes deeply ] oh, what a relief it is [ male announcer ] try alka seltzer plus severe sinus day and night for complete relief from your worst sinus symptoms. Your soups are so awesomely delicious my husband and i cant stop eating em whats. That. On your head . Can curlers tomato basil, potato with bacon. Weve got a lot of empty cans. [ male announcer ] progresso. You gotta taste this soup. Pretty sweet, huh . Cute. But dont you have any apps on your phone that can make your life easier . Who do you think i am, quicken loans . At quicken loans, well provide you with myql mobile. This amazingly useful app allows you to take pictures of your mortgage documents using an iphone or android smart phone. So you can easily send them to us. One more way quicken loans is engineered to amaze. Ooh, lala a talking car. But ill tell you what impresses me. A talking train. This ge locomotive can tell you exactly where it is, what its carrying, while using less fuel. Delivering whatever the world needs, when it needs it. After all, whats the point of talking if you dont have something important to say . Is back. Hes risen from the dead. Get him and hes preaching anything but forgiveness. He may be wearing sandals, but he can still kick ass. Jesus h. Christ the h. Is silent. Thats Christophe Walsh from snls brilliant spoof of django unchained. Nominated for oscars, this sunday. Two of djangos five oscar nods are there. Completely over the top. Hes undeniably a serious film maker dealing with issues of race and social justice and one who loves to challenge our boundari boundaries. I wasnt surprised to find that at harvard, Jason Silversteen is leading a course entitled race, racism and quintenter en teeno. I knew i had to check it out. You want me to play a black slave . A black slaver is lord in the head house [ bleep ]. Thats pretty [ bleep ] up. Then play him that way. Give me your black slaver. So whats the value, jason, of a class like this about Quinten Tarantino in academia. Why are we studying tarantino at harvard . To me, the idea, right, is that you i want to get the most people talking about how we talk about race. In society. For all the controversy, he generates, hes generating discussion. And i think that thats what great art is going to do. So even if you go to the film and you come away with this sense that this is doing more negative work than good, its still doing good work in that its getting people to Start Talking about how we can talk about race, how we can talk about slavery. Sugar . Yes, sir. Dango isnt a slave. Django is a free man, you understand . You cant treat him like any of the other [ bleep ] around here, because he aint like any of the other [ bleep ] around here. You got it . You want us to treat him like white folks . No. Thats not what i said. I really hate the n word discussion, right, but it is very persistent around his films. Right. I cant really see there being much argument about using it in django. As he sort of defended it to henry louis gates, you know, no one is saying that it was used more than it was used in 1858 mississippi. I count six shots [ bleep ]. I count two guns [ bleep ]. The word is there to show this sort of linguistic violence, i think, that was going on during slavery in addition to the physical violence. Did you guys make a decision in the class, were going to go with the n word, were going to say it . Even if the text calls for it, i think the first thing you have to discuss is to make sure that everybody is comfortable . And knows they can express theyre not comfortable. One of the first things we did in the course was introducing our backgrounds, why it makes our perspectives interesting. As we got to talking, you can kind of feel this sense of understanding that was happening between each of us. Remember me . Tarantino is good for pea ls of blood and heads flying off. In django it has a place because slavery was violent. It was an uncomfortable situation so we should feel uncomfort 5 uncomfortable . Was the violence too much . I think its on par with other mainstream films in america. I think its funny when people point to the violence in this as amoral or especially inciting or compelling people towards violence. Of course, in the last three films hes done in kill bill and inglourious basterds, hes dealing with clearly defined boundaries of good and evil. Im in a theater with 40 people total, there are two white people and the rest are black. Every kind of scene in which like a white person gets killed, theres essentially tearing. Is white guilt supposed to make me forget im running a business . Oh, its like that, huh . The films of tarantino in particularly are extraordinarily rich in terms of ways of dealing with race and racist midamerica. Jackie brown is totally in conversation outwardly. Theres an interesting black white relationship going on which is completely taboo in american cinema. Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is a way to talk about the various ways that race and race simple just manifests in society, whether its in your sort of lowlife criminal type in reservoir dogs or whether its buddies who are interracial friends. Obviously vincent and jules in pulp fiction all the way up to django. I think it helps people see something familiar. People see something familiar from their own lives. Its interesting the way that, you know, slavery gets smooshed into our face here and we are just it was always the thing we didnt want to talk about, but now we cant stop talking about it. Theres a west african proverb and it goes only when lions have historians will hunters cease being heroes. So how can we tell stories in order to be those historians for the lions, the people who have not had the voice and who not only have not had the voice but who have had their suffering silenced throughout history . All right. You know what goes together like harvard and tar rain tantino . Marco rubio and tupac. Dont get it . You will. Iving bonus check . Every six months without an accident, allstate sends a check. Ok. [ voice of dennis ] silence. Are you in good hands . [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat . Campbells healthy request soup lets you hear it. In your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. Great taste. Mmm. [ male announcer ] sounds good. Its amazing what soup can do. You may be muddling through allergies. Try zyrtecd®. Powerful relief of nasal congestion and other allergy symptoms all in one pill. Zyrtecd®. At the pharmacy counter. [ male announcer ] thats why theres ocuvite to help replenish key eye nutrients. Ocuvite has a unique formula not found in your multivitamin to help protect your eye health. Ocuvite. Help protect your eye health. I think tupac lyrics were probably more insightful in my opinion, with you will a apologies to the biggie fans. Its amazing how tupac has moved from political pariah to political friend used by Vice President dan quayle when he said tupacs music has no place in society to someone used by president ial hopeful marco rubio to prove hes down. I suspect this says something about tipthiphop and the gop. Hiphop once was symbolic of the destruction of america. Once upon a time finding hip hohop on a politicians walkman was as bad as finding prostitutes. It makes me wonder if noz was right when he said hop hiphop dead. Tupac was a revolutionary. Now his music is so mainstream its acceptable for the crown prince of the Tea Party Movement to say he loves pac even though he would surely vomit in his grave being used by a man who favors regressive taxes that would only add to our income inequality problems. Rube know may be aware of that but hes also aware that the gop has a significant brand problem with voters under 40. Many of whom are open to the partys economic ideas but repelled by the partys cultural chance on choice, womens right, gay rights. A fascinating story published yesterday takes us to ohio where a conservative advocacy outfit conducts focus groups with 20somethings who voted for obama but were deemed within reach of the republicans until they play the Word Association game. For republican the focus groupers say corporate greed, old, hypocritical, narrow minded, rigid, racist, out of touch, hateful, 1950s. The article says Young Americans dont want to join a party thats on the wrong side of history. Whats a young republican 2016 hopeful to do about the boulder between the gop and the white house . For rubio tupac is one small way to differentiate himself. To say im not out of the 50s. Im modern and cool. What tupac is to rubio, rubio is to the gop. Hes a human bandaid on a gaping bullet hole. Most of his message is not that much different from romneys failed assault on big government, but hes not an older white man so maybe this time it will work. But the gop doesnt understand that voters see through the window dressing. They see through the new face pushing old policies. They see through the tupac loving senator whose antigay marriage and prolife and antiscience and pro gun rights and who voted against the violence again women rights. If pac were alive, he would be battling rubio and the rnc