democrats. members of congress here here from both sides of the aisle to talk about wa happened today. let's turn back to the breaking news, "the washington post" explosive report that the president of the united states is currently under a criminal investigation for the obstruction of justice. responding in a statement, a spokesman for the president's attorney did not dispute the post report, saying only the fbi leak of information regarding the president is outrageous, inexcusable, and illegal. joining me now, "the washington post's" sari horwitz, one of the reporters who broke this tire. sari, this would seem to confirm what james comey appeared to indicate, what many have been sort of hinting at, but squarely you guys have nailed down that apparently robert mueller is looking at obstruction of justice. >> yes. you're right, chris, that the former fbi director in his testimony did seem to be laying out a case of possible obstruction. but what we found out that, indeed, the special counsel, robert mueller, has expanded,
widened the investigation to look at the president specifically and obstruction of justice. and we know that there are some important interviews this week, including senior intelligence officials who are coming before him really as witnesses because of conversations they, like fbi director comey, had with the president about the russia investigation. >> so these are dan coats, the director of national intelligence, and mike rogers, who is the national security agency, previous reporting in your paper has indicated both of these men were asked by president in a meeting in the oval office where he asked everyone else to leave, if they could do anything about the flynn investigation, a kind of pattern of behavior, if true, very similar to what james comey said about what the president did to him. >> yes. well, no, actually what we reported was that dan coats, who is the director of national intelligence, shortly after he was confirmed, was in the meeting in the oval office with another official, not mike rogers. >> i'm sorry. >> with another official. and he was asked by the president if he could do something to get comey to back
illegal. the fbi leak of information regarding the president is outrageous, inexcusable and illegal. what do you say to that? >> as we reported in our story, we have five sources. we don't say where they're from. we don't identify where they're from at all. >> all right. sari horwitz, excellent reporting. thank you for making some time tonight. >> thank you, chris. >> joining me now, former chief justice department spokesman matt miller. the line from the white house after the comey testimony was the president is not personally under criminal investigation. it now appears to be the case the president is personally under criminal investigation. >> yeah. i think we talked about the time. that was an obviously stupid statement to make because whatever donald trump's status was at the time jim comey last told him he wasn't under investigation, the fact that he fired comey, the fact that now it's come to light that he asked him to back off the flynn investigation was going to mean he very soon would be under criminal investigation if he wasn't already. it was a remarkably, i think --
it was just dumb. there's no other way to say it. to put all of your eggs in the basket of donald trump was vindicated when it was very likely that within a few days, and now, six days later it turns out he wasn't vindicated. in fact, he is under criminal investigation. >> to kasowitz's line, the president's attorney that i just asked sari about, you and i have talked before about investigators keeping investigations closely held because to not be prejudicial. but it's also the case as an investigation widens, and this is something you've said on this show. as an investigation widens, necessarily more and more people will have knowledge of parts of it as investigators start interviewing more and more people. that, to me, is a real problem for the white house at this point. >> yeah. it's absolutely the case. i mean this is what happens because when you go out and start interviewing people, not only do more people know about what's happening, but they know what you're investigating because of the questions you ask them. so when you call dan coats and when you call mike rogers and
when you call richard legity and tell them we want to talk to you about your conversations with the president when he asked you to intervene, when he asked you to make public statements, it's very clear that the president's under obstruction of justice. as sari noted in the last segment, there are five people confirmed in that story. if you look at where this investigation is likely to go now, it's likely to go to people like jeff sessions, who might have talked with the president, it seems, given that he wouldn't answer the question yesterday. it's likely to go to the upper reaches of the white house where you have to assume that director mueller is going to want to know what did the president say to all of those people about the russia investigation. what did he ask them to do? who did he ask them to intervene with, and why? what did he tell them abo why he was firing jim comey? all those people are going to have to decide do they want to take a risk for donald trump that they lie, that they perjure themselves and spend many years in jail for him. >> i want to be clear about the stakes here because in some ways, much of the current issue started with michael flynn apparently lying to federal
investigators who asked him about his calls with sergey kislyak. and that is a felony. i mean people get prosecuted for lying to federal investigators. and just to be clear here, my sense is that that obtains here, right? i mean this is an fbi investigation. if he's going to you, dan coats, or whoever, if you are lying to him or not telling the truth under penalty of criminal sanction? >> that's absolutely right. if you lie to an fbi vector, ine investigator, and you lie on the grand jury and they can prove it, you will go to jail. there's another problem for white house aides and senior administration officials that regular people in the private sector don't have which is, you and i, if the fbi comes to you and wants to talk about something, we can decline to cooperate. that's not tenable for a senior white house staff. it's generally thought that you cannot take the fifth amendment and continue to serve in a senior government position. i assume that will still be the case in this administration. i will assume if people aren't willing to cooperate with the
fbi, if they're taking the fifth inside the grand jury, they have to leave the government. >> we should be clear that is the constitutional protection of anyone, and that pertains to anyone in the white house. no one can be compelled or forced to testify at the risk of self-incrimination. >> yeah. everyone has that right, but not everyone has the right to work in a senior position in the u.s. government. >> right. and there's two avenues here, both of which ty appear to have been trying to avoid, both of which would be escalations from a kin of p.r. perspective. the invocation formally of executive privilege to hide people, stop them from testifying, or pleading the fifth. both of those would be very problematic for the headlines they would create. >> yeah. well, let's just play that out in one very obvious exam. so jeff sessions wouldn't invoke executive privilege yesterday but it's clear that's where he was going. he's the head of the justice department obviously. if the fbi comes and wants to do an interview with jeff sessions and he declines to do that interview because of this executive privilege claim either informal or because the president formally invokes it,
that's an extremely awkward position for the attorney general. it would force bob mueller to subpoena him to the grand jury and force an exclusive privilege showdown where mueller would go to an appellate court and argue that the need for criminal information trumps executive privilege. that is what courts have held in the past in water and recently in the '90s. >> that is the pandora's box they would be opening by that invocation. matt miller, thanks for your time. i'm joined by hakeem jeffries and leonard nance of new jersey. i'm so glad you're here. i'm so glad you're safe. obviously everyone in the country is pulling for your colleague, steve scalise and all the people that were injured today. they're in our thoughts. they've been in our thoughts all day. i want to talk about the wrenching day you had, but i want to start with this news and start with you congressman lance. the president of the united states, it appears, is currently under personal criminal investigation by the special counsel. what's your reaction to that news? >> i support mr. mueller in his
investigation, and i think that he will do a fine job and a thorough job and let the chips fall where they may. >> what do you mean by let the chips fall where they may? >> i want toee the report from mr. mueller, and i assume it will be a complete report. and i presume it will involve all aspects of this situation, chris. >> the fact you support him, and then congressman jeffries, i'll get your response as well. the fact you support him, i just want to be clear because there are many members of congress, republicans who have called into question his integrity, whether he's unbiased. louie gohmert, who say colleague of yours, referred to him as dirty. you're saying you don't agree with that characterization. you trust him? >> i do trust mr. mueller. i was the first republican in congress to say that attorney general sessions should recuse himself in any matter regarding russia, and i think that the appointment of mr. mueller by the deputy attorney general, in his capacity as acting attorney general, was an excellent appointment. >> all right. congressman jeffries, the
president's central line has been the president is not under personal investigation. that appears to no longer be operative. what does that mean to you? >> well, as leonard said, first of all, bob mueller is a talented launch professional. he's respected by democrats and republicans, and i'm confident that he will follow the facts wherever that may lead. it is an extraordinary development in a year of extraordinary developments h and it is following the typical rhythm of a washington scandal. you know, there's the potential crime, in this case, possible collusion between russian spies and members of the trump campaign team. and then there's always the concern about cover-up. in this particular instance, it's now gone all the way up to the top at 1600 pennsylvania avenue, and there's a legitimate question that the american people deserve answers to as to whether president donald trump engaged in obstruction of justice or abuse of power. >> so to follow up on that, there's reporting from "the new york times" the president was seriously considering firing robert mueller.
just now in the wake of this news, his son, who is obviously a noted advocate on behalf of his father, re-tweeting someone calling for the investigation to be shut down. what do you see as your constitutional duty as a member of congress should the president try to take steps to shut down this inquiry at this point? >> well, i think the judiciary committee that i serve on, along with the intelligence committee both in the house and the senate, have an obligation to continue to make sure that we conduct a thorough, independent congressional investigation. i support an independent commission for that purpose so that we can ultimately get to the bottom of what happened in terms of the underlying potential crime of collusion as well as any attempts to cover it up. and hopefully this is not an issue of partisan politics. this is an issue of, you know, americs coming together regardless of whetherou're democrats or republicans to ensure there's a full, fair, and independent investigation and that there's no interference with what the special prosecutor is doing on behalf of the american people. >> congressman lance, to you, is
it important for republicans on the hill to send the signal whether publicly or privately to the white house that republicans on the hill would not stand for attempts to end this investigation or to remove mueller? >> yes. i think it is, and i've sent that message through this program this evening. i do not think mr. mueller should be discharged. dr chris, one wonder who's would discharge him. i would imagine it would have to be the deputy attorney general, and i would imagine the deputy attorney general would not do that given his testimony recently here on the hill. >> yeah. of course that's correct. it would be the deputy attorney general. he said he wanted -- in nixon's case, he fired people until he got someone who would. i want to turn now to what happened today. it was horrifying. i think everyone feels shaken having worked on capitol hill as a reporter there, i know how much everyone is sort of in each other's space all the time. how are you feeling, congressman
lance, about what happened today, and what has the atmosphere been like in that building today? >> it's been very somber, very sad. of course we were all horrified in a bipartisan capacity on the events this morning. i know steve scalise. i know him relatively well, and i thought that the remarks at the lunch hour by speaker ryan and democratic leader pelosi were eloquent. i thought the speaker was particularly eloquent, and i think we're coming together in this matter, and i hope of course that this never occurs again. and i think it demonstrates, chris, that we have to try to work together, listen to other people o the oer side of the island, and work in what is the greategood for the american nation. >> congressman jeffries, if i'm not mistaken, you're playing in this softball game tomorrow night. it's a great baseball game. it's a great tradition. you know, it has always struck
me it's a great thing about america that even post-9/11, as security is ramped up in lots of places, members of congress are still accessible and approachable, and you can talk to them, and sometimes you can see them in washington getting a cup of coffee, or they might be in your district. how important is it to maintain that? >> extremely important. this is a representative democracy of course, chris. and as a result of that, the people need to be able to talk to their representatives, share their thoughts, their feelings, their concerns, and petition their government, which is their first amendment right. it's essential to the functioning and the integrity of our democracy, and so i think despite the shocking developments, the sadness, the surrealness of the day, that democrats and republicans remain committed to that responsibility that we have to serve the people that we represent and to be accessible. i do think that there will probably be a re-evaluation as to some of the security procedures, particularly whenever large groups of members of congress get together such as at the republican baseball
practice. hopefully also, chris, this will be a moment of clarity for the left and for the right, for democrats, republicans, for the white house, for congress, for people inside the beltway and outside the beltway that we all should rethink about the need to dial down the rhetoric. we can disagree without being disagreeable. >> congressman, you're nodding your head, and i saw members coming out of the closed-door briefing today, republican and democrat, talking about their feelings of threat, the rise in death threats, the sort of atmosphere of the country at this time. do you feel like you're under threat? >> um, i've held four town hall meetings in the last two and a half months, and we had a good deal of security at the town hall meetings. i don't feel threatened, but i'm certainly pleased that there is security. i agree with hakeem that i think when there are 10 or 15 members of congress, in the future there should probably be better security.
the baseball game is a tremendous tradition here. i of course hope that we republicans win, and, chris, that's why i am not a player because i was a right fielder in grade school where i could do the least amount of damage, and i'm sure hakeem is an excellent player, and i'm sure he will do very well for the democrats. i will be rooting tomorrow for the republicans. >> congressman lance, something tells me you had that line all ready to go. congressman jeffries, what is your position? >> well, i play left field. i hope to dowell. no one will mistakee for k griffey jr., but we are going to compete, both democrats and republicans. may the best team win, and then we'll all come together as americans afterward. >> i want to thank both of you afor appearing jointly tonight. i think it was important given what happened today. i do hope obviously the best for everyone and that we can maintain this kind of openness. as you said, congressman lance, people do talk to each other across different viewpoints. but i really appreciate you both coming out tonight.
thank you both. >> thank you, chris. we'll have much more on both breaking news stories tonight. first, watergate prosecutor jill wine-banks and paul butler join me to talk about the reporting that president trump is being investigated for possible obstruction of justice. that's after this two-minute break. and an entrepreneur named sharon. its witnessed 31 crashes, 4 food fights, and the flood of '09. it's your paradise perfected with behr premium plus low odor paint. the best you can buy starting under $25. unbelievable quality. unbeatable prices. only at the home depot. so we know how to cover almost alanything.ything, even a coupe soup. [woman] so beautiful. [man] beautiful just like you. [woman] oh, why thank you.
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new, more reliable equipment for your home. and a new culture built around customer service. it all adds up to our most reliable network ever. one that keeps you connected to what matters most. we are back on what has been an absolutely huge day of news, almost overwhelming frankly. at this hour, we continue to follow today's two big stories -- the attack on republican members of congress on a baseball diamond in virginia, where four people were shot, including top house republican steve scalise. they are in the hospital at this moment. much more on that coming up. the other big story, "the washington post" citing five sources, reporting that the man leading the justice department's russia investigation, special counsel robert mueller, who today visited capitol hill and who has put together what is being described as a legal dream team is -- and i quote the article here -- interviewing senior intelligence officials as part of a widening probe that
now includes an examination of whether president trump attempted to obstruct justice. joining me now, former watergate prosecutor jill wine-banks and nbc legal analyst paul butler. paul, i've had you on before to talk about obstruction, and you have been fairly clear that you thought there was a plausible case for that. how do you imagine this inquiry goes now? >> well, chris, you're right. every day in this story it seems like there is breaking news. but make no mistake about what happened today. the president of the united states is the subject of a criminal investigation 145 days in his term. now, the fact that he's being investigated for obstruction isn't really that surprising. director comey testified last week that he felt ordered and directed by president trump to stop the investigation of michael flynn. when the fbi director says that, it has to be investigated.
what i think is just as revealing is the leak, that we know this investigation of the president is happening, and i think that's a response to concerns that trump was thinking about firing the special counsel mueller. now if he fires mueller, that's just more evidence of obstruction. it's like he fired comey, and now he's firing mueller. so he's in a very difficult position. he either fires mueller, tries to impede the investigation that way, or he lets the investigation proceed where he has, as you call, a legal dream team of prosecutors and investigators looking at everything he's ever done. innocent or guilty, that's a very difficult position. >> yeah. to paul's point, this is "the new york times" reporting. the president seemed to be entertaining the idea of firing mr. mueller even as his staff tried to discourage him from something they believe would turn a bad situation into a catastrophe. and, jill, of course you have some experience with this because that was the famous saturday night massacre of
archibald cox by richard nixon. i mean just legally here, it would have to be the dag that would fire him, and as congressman lance said earlier, rod rosenstein said under oath that he would do no such thing. but the president could remove him and put in place someone who would, correct? >> that's exactly what happened in watergate. the attorney general refused, and the deputy attorney general refused. and so he ended up firing them and then having the solicitor general fire archibald cox, the special prosecutor. so he could remove rosenstein and then have someone else there who would do it. but i think paul has very clearly stated all the hurdles that he would face -- that he, trump, would face if he were to do that. it would be a catastrophe. it would lead to possibly the same reaction we got to the saturday night massacre, which was the public outcry that forced the president, three days later, to reverse himself, to
appoint a new special prosecutor, and to agree to turn over the tapes he had been stone walling about. so the same thing could happen here, and the public could turn against trump if he were to take such a drastic action. >> here's what hangs over all of this. paul, this is to you, and i'll get your feedback as well, jill. you know, it's unclear -- it's sort of not settled law whether the president of the united states can be, say, indicted, right? so if you had a finding of obstruction of justice pursuant to code, it appears to be the only remedy is impeachment. what happens? we've got all these great investigators and it's a pretty open and shut case. he committed obstruction of justice. paul butler, then what? >> then it becomes a political determination by the congress of the united states. so the house would impeach him, which means charge him. and the senate would judge the case. they would decide whether to convict him or not. >> but just to be clear, they're under no obligation to do so.
robert mueller could file a report that says, here's all the evidence that the president of the united states criminally obstructed justice. you know, under the letter of the law, there's no legal requirement that the house initiate or theouse judiciary committee initiate impeachment proceengs, right? >> that's exactly right. again, the congressmen were saying earlier in your program whether those could set aside their partisan differences and just express fidelity to the rule of law is going to be key. one of the reasons that the president can't be indicted, formally charged with a crime, is because we want him to focus on governing the nation. but this president, knowing that he's in serious jeopardy of being accused at least of obstruction of justice, we really wonder how much he'll be able to concentrate on his day to day work. at minimum, i think he's going to now encourage his aides to exercise executive privilege to
try to shut them up and prevent them from talking about their private conversations to the special counsel. >> well, that's a great point. and, jill, i mean there is now exposure for everyone in that white house who works for the president. you can be an accessory to this for folks that were part of, for instance, the process that kind of pretext tullely created reasons to get rid of comey that appeared not to be the real ones. those folks who work in the white house, they do have some legal exposure, am i correct? >> yes, they do. in the watergate case all of the top aides went to jail for participating in the cover-up. so that is a real jeopardy that they are in, and i would just add one thing to what paul said, which was 100% correct. but we, during watergate, after the indictment when we couldn't indict the president because archibald cox was gone and leon jaworski believed impeachment was the only remedy, but we found that there is a rule that allowed a prosecutor to ask
permission to release grand jury testimony and other evidence to the house for impeachment. so we created a report which provided a roadmap to impeachment to the house. now, paul is right. the house does not have to take any action on that. >> right. >> they can do nothing because that is a political decision. but i think that the pressure that would be on them were there to be such a report would make it very difficult for anyone. and i hope that this congress can come together on this issue as they did after today's tragedy in arlington -- in alexandria, rather. so i'm hoping for some bipartisan cooperation here. >> we'll see what happens. that was really illuminating and clarifying. thank you both. i really appreciate it. coming up, much more on the two big stories of the day, including more about partisan unity on the hill. stay with us. >> we are united. when your pain reliever stops working, your whole day stops.
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this occasion as one that brings us together and not separates us further. >> when my son, jack, was born, i was chairman of the energy and commerce committee, and jack got as many presents from the democrats as he did from the republicans. and he still has some of those. >> we all feel that we can't let anyone, regardless of what their motive is, the invtigaon is ongoing. we can't let anye stop us from doing our work and for standing together and continuing to move forward. >> coming up, we talk to the young man who helped save congresswoman gabby giffords' life when she was shoot in 2011. >> we are grateful to daniel hernandez, a volunteer in gabby's office. daniel, i'm sorry.
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about the shooter today. >> reporter: yes, aat deal. all except the critical, what was he doing here, and why did he suddenly become violent? we know he's 66-year-old james t. hodgkinson, known to his friends as tommy. this is a picture from an earlier run-in that he had with the law. but for the most part, the police say he wasn't much trouble. there was an incident at his home in belleville, illinois, which is a suburb of st. louis, in late march when he was out in the woods, target practicing. neighbors called the police. the sheriff came and said, you got to go somewhere else, and he said, fine, and didn't put up a fight. at some point after that, we don't know the exact day, investigators say, he came to the washington area in a white cargo van that he's apparently been living out of ever since. sometimes even sleeping on a bench in the park where today's shooting took place. he showered apparently in the ymca which is just across the
street from the ball field. people who came in contact with him here over the past several weeks say he never appeared to be violent. he never expressed violent tendencies, didn't seem to be dangerous. in fact, he talked to the former mayor, who used the same ymca, about trying to find a job. so the motive is unclear. now, it is known that he had some very strong feelings about the republican party in general. he's been expressing these for at least the past decade, first in letters to the editor of his local paper and then when social media became a common platform, he expressed his views on facebook and twitter. and he'd been quite bitter about his opposition to president trump, used obscenities to talk about his hatred for trump. just as recently as two days ago, was posting to facebook about trump. and we know that he was also last year a volunteer f the bernie sanders campaign and also in 2011, joined the occupy wall
street demonstration in st. louis. but it's a long trip to come here from belleville, illinois, to washington. and it's also a long trip metaphorically to go from someone with strong views to someone who suddenly picks up an assault rifle and opens fire after asking a witness nearby whether the people who are playing baseball today are republicans or democrats. so why he did that, why he came here, why he became violent is what the fbi is trying to figure out, chris. and tonight they say they don't know. >> pete williams, thanks for joining us. >> you bet. before today, the most recent shooting of a member of congress took place on january 8th, 2011. >> it is with a heavy heart today that i join my colleagues in paying respects to the victims of the senseless tragedy that took place last weekend in arizona. i extend my prayers to the families of those who lost their lives, to the wounded, and the recovering, and to our dear colleague gabby giffords. >> that of course was congressman steve scalise on the house floor more than six years
ago after arizona congresswoman gabby giffords was shot in the head while meeting with constituents outside a supermarket in tucson. six people died that day. congresswoman giffords survived thanks in large part to the quick thinking of 20-year-old intern daniel hernandez. joining me now is daniel hernandez, now democratic state representative for arizona. daniel, thank you for making time. i wanted -- i thought of today, and i thought of your story and wondered what your reaction -- what you made of today. >> you know, the attack today on the gop members of congress really was an assault on our democracy. for me it what reminded me what happened in the immediate aftermath of the shooting in tucson where there was l of chaos and a lot of confusion. but i think a lot of qstions as tow where do we go from here. i think one of the things that i heard representative that i think was really heartening was we need to come together. but to hear not just democrats
but republicans saying we need to work on finding solutions. he said he hopes this never happens again, and i think it's totally within the realm of possibility to prevent something like this happening again. but a hope without a plan is just a dream. for me, hearing the news today, it broke my heart wednesday against to see a member of congress, but any people being targeted and attacked about gun violence. but also it reminded me there's so much work we need to continue to do to make sure this doesn't happen again. >> if you serve the institution of congress, you're connected to your colleagues, current and former, by a shared sense of service to ideals far greater than yourself. this shooting is an attack on all who serve and participate in our democracy. i want to ask you as someone who experienced this as a public event, this horrible thing happened. then you yourself chose to go into politics.
i talked to hakeem jeffries and leonard lance how important is to be in contact with the public. what made you still want to go and be out talking to people? >> i'd always wanted to help people from the young age of about 6 when i wanted to go into health care. and having the experience with congresswoman give ordfforgiffo taught me about the importance of public policy and the way it impacts people's lives, i decided i want to get involved so i interned. after the shooting, i decided the best way for me to be able to impact people with the problems they have every single day was to run for office at the local level. now i'm serving as a state representative, but it really strg strengthened and cemented my desire to be out there talking to people. i think it's one of my responsibilities as an elected official to be out there in the public. we cannot segregate ourselves. we need to be out there talking to our constituents and hearing directly from them what their needs are. that's why i think at some
point, what representative jeffries said, we need to be talking to our constituents. we cannot be in a glass house. we need to be out there talking to folks. i think that's for me one of the reasons why i refuse to be terrorized. i've had death threats. i've had things happen to me over the last six years where people have said things that are not great. but that doesn't mean that i'm going to back away from representing the folks that i got elected by, but also talking about the issues that i care about, whether it's lgbt rights or gun violence prevention. we need folks being vocal about the things we care about if we want to actually enact change in this country. >> i appreciate you taking some time tonight. thank you very much. we've just gotten word president trump has left the white house, is heading to the hospital to visit congressman steve scalise. we'll keep you updated on that as we get more information. coming up, more on tonight's "washington post" bombshell. the president being investigated for possible obstruction of justice. working on my feet all day gave me pain here.
all right. we've just gotten word the president of the united states is en route to visit steve scalise, one of the people shot today at the alexandria baseball diamond. the president will be visiting two capitol police officers. it was the presence of those capitol police officers that stopped this from becoming a massacre of incomprehensible proportions. it was only because they were there with steve scalise, who is in leadership. they returned fire. ultimately they shot the shooter who died in custody. without them there, it could have been so much more horrific than it already was. lots to talk about on this day. we'll be right back.
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from frequent heartburn. all day, and all night. now packed into a pill so small, we call it mini. new clearminis from nexium 24hr. see heartburn differently. all right. our coverage of two breaking news stories continues on this extraordinary day, which began with a gunman opening fire on republican congressional members at a baseball practice. house majority whip steve scalise struck in the hip, is recovering after surgery. three other people suffered gunshot wounds, also in recovery, some of them in quite critical condition as we understand. then late today, "the washington post" reported that special counsel robert mueller is investigating the president of the united states for possible obstruction of justice. joining me now, jennifer rubin, jason johnson, and josh barrow. jennifer, i'll start with you.
in some ways this is confirmation of what had been indicated. but just to take a step back, we're in fairly uncharted territory. there's an active special counsel investigation of the president of the united states, a criminal investigation indicated. to take a step back, we're in fairly unchartered territory, there is a criminal investigation open we now know about. >> correct. you're right. i did assume this was going on both because james comey last week laid out a case you could tell was an obstruction case and because robert mueller is a very esteemed lawyer and former fbi chief and would know an obstruction case when he sees its. this is confirmation. it does a bunch of things. it should put everybody on notice in this administration you should not abide by the president president's lawyer's advice not to get your own lawyer. you should be careful about
telling the truth to everybody, this is a trap for the unwary and time for the senate and house side and republicans to put aside some of this partisanship and stop trying to throw sand in the gears and ask real questions of the witnesses and do their job. >> josh, you had a contrarian take the other day about republican behavior on capitol hill. you said they have been more adversarial or more willing to exercise oversight of the president than you would have anticipated. >> they certainly could be doing more to hold trump accountable but a lot less. you look, we're 150 days into this administration, the amount of damaging hearings that have been held on the hill, the hearing held with comey and such. in some cases with fairly aggressive questioning, especially from richard burr and other members on the senate intelligence committee. they don't even have to have these hearings. >> that's the key to me. the chairs have had hearings that if they were maximally
falling in line wouldn't even have seen the light of day. >> i think to some extent they would have liked to be covering for the president more. the president has made it difficult for them. especially by firing james comey because he made it look so obvious she was trying to interfere with the investigation, it was hard for people like richard burr to come wake up a plausible reason they're slow walking it. their reason to carry waterer for president is not slow walking and if it became embarrassingly enough not to hold the hearing they have to hold the hearing. >> this now moves. we don't know what's going on in the special counsel, a somewhat black box but moves to counsel. we all know the president was thinking about firing him. if you have known him for a week you know that. you watched him fire james comey. ultimately, like the boundaries for all this action ultimately what will congress abide and won't. >> it's a political question. >> fundamentally.
>> how bad does it have to get for the republicans in the house, the impeachment has to start there to say we have to get rid of this guy, it's too much of a problem. will it take the 2018 weapons? being wiped out or an additional scandal? that's what we're looking at here. the evidence seems pretty clear. we already knew the trump was under investigation after comey said i already gave that stuff to mueller. the question is whether the republicans want to get ahead of this or wait until the shoes drop and get crushed by it. >> what makes this strange when you go down to the basic, jennifer, core facts are, what did the russians do, in terms of their efforts in the campaign, appear to be quite extensive, did they receive any aid or help with those persons and were they associated with the trump campaign? did they collude in any way, the entire facts are hidden. everything out there on the
obstruction question is there for us to see. any operating in this political environment is doing largely blind. >> yes. this is the adage the cover-up can be if not worse more visible than the underlying crime. i would say the republicans have lots of constructive things they could be doing if they wanted to get to the heart of this. one of this is investigating his financial ties and getting to the bottom of the emoluments problem which does intersect with the russian problem. what money does he have coming in? who did he have dealings with? did he really not have any deals with the russians? what did he know or not know about mr. flynn and his association with the russians? there could be a variety of other forums congress could get involved. i would say there was a third event today that any other day would have been remarked upon, it would have been three or four lines down the list, senator
grassley a fervent defender agreed to open hearings on the judiciary committee on the firing of james comey. that's another big development pretty much in parallel with an obstruction investigation with the special prosecutor. >> to that point the question here in terms of all the parties involved, how does the white house -- is the white house able to maintain discipline of the president to not essentially do something catastrophic. ultimately he has been his own worst enemy in the behavior he has himself -- this story is a story because the president of the united states fired james comey what appeared play and thely -- >> the problem is for robert mueller to keep his job the president has to wake up every morning and decide not to fire robert mueller. for him to lose his job he just has to wake up once and decide this is the day to fire robert mueller. maggie from the new york times,
why aren't people telling the president no? they're telling him all the time and he's not listening to them. they become more alarmed. just because the staff tries to protect him from himself doesn't mean he will listen consistently. >> you will see a bunch of people updating their linkedin profiles. if you're in the white house, the little things i've done for the president i could get wrapped up in this drag net and don't want to get involved in this anymore. >> someone once told me almost every administration sees someone go to jail, even if you're careful and this white house has not been careful. i want to talk about this morning and the resonance of that. you watch this develop in this extremely polarizing atmosphere, it's exhausting and blaming and who's the villain and connection of normal politics, bernie sanders, volunteered for bernie sanders to ghastly attempted
murder. it seems to me actually -- jennifer, i want to know what you think about this. i think it's important, my view of this, it's important to draw the line between speech, even if it's rabid and people scream at the members of congress whether they're in the tea party and resistance and violence. it's important to maintain and not do too much connecting between those two. >> two ideas intentioned. on one hand we have a president who has plowed down democratic norm after democratic norm. he incited violence at his rallies. he has been someone who has not respected the peaceful operation of democracy. you do want to put a stop to that and condemn that. on the other hand, this is important. people who do this are not simply acting as a political actor, there's something terribly disturbed, terribly wrong and terribly evil about th. you have to separate those
people from even irresponsible speech by the president and irresponsible speech in congress. we want a robust democracy even one we don't like very much how people are conducting themselves and on the other hand, make sure we have a correct appropriate response when these horrible events happen that is sober. >> and for folks liberals, opponents of the president whatever, force themselves through the exercise if the shoe were on the other foot in this circumstance, that has nothing to do with me because obviously i find this horrendous. i would never do something like that, would you extend that basic framework to someone else? that's an exercise for everyone to go through emotionally and cognitively. >> another thing that is in play here, this is a guy who abused women and has a violent background in general. the lesson i hope we all learn from this on the right and left and praying for steve scalise to
be okay, oftentimes politics will make compromises rhetorically for votes or policy and not recognize how it could exacerbate their own issues. steve has his own issues in the past and he didn't do that because he's a politician, does it for votes and politics can activate people. >> i think so. i think that's dangerous in some ways. this way of activating, you start to hem in -- it's a free country. what you should not do is violence to jennifer's point. that has happened. it's important to hold that line between excitement and speech and action. >> the things i'm afraid of and what members of congress are afraid of why they were very nice to each other, the increased agitation of the public not just one side is

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