Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20200613

Gone from tragedy to activism to poz ti politics. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Earlier today the Vice President of the United States, mike pence, stopped by a diner and videoed that event. There other than a secret service guy in the back and later a way tres, almost nobody is Wearing Masks as far as i could tell, no one. Certainly not the supposed head of the Coronavirus Task force. Do you remember that . And that might seem like a small thing, especially to anyone who has managed to convince themselves they no longer have to worry about the virus. The reality is that the virus is still here. Its still killing people every day. The more we learn, the more we learn close sustained indoor proximity without masks like what theyre doing at the diner brings with it a high risk of transmission. The more we learn, the more we learn that masks matter a lot. In many countries that have managed to control the virus, pretty much everyone wears masks. Not that we were even to the point where we were trying to prevent a second wave here in america sadly we are still squarely in the first wave. We basically plateaued at about 20,000 cases a day and just under a thousand at the times a day. That is our new devastating normal. We have already lost more than 115,000 americans. Right now hospitalizations are surging in a number of states, including arizona, tennessee, arkansas, South Carolina and alabama. Two states, oregon and utah, have paused their reopening efforts. I will talk to kate brown in a moment about that. Florida and texas just reported records for daily highs in new cases, which is particularly striking given that republicans announced yesterday that jacksonville, florida is the new alternative location for the Republican National convention after officials in charlotte and North Carolina declared the event would not be safe there. Safety does not seem to be much of a concern for the president of the United States amidst the pandemic that has seen 150,000 die. Next week, donald trump is holding his First Campaign rally since the lockdown in tulsa, oklahoma where covid19 cases just reached a high. Outbreak linked to indoor gatherings. Okay. The president will be holding his rally at an indoor arena at the bank of oklahoma center, which seats just over 19,000 people packed in there as far as we could tell. Hes telling his supporters that if they get the coronavirus at his rally it is not his problem. In order to attend, they have to agree not to sue donald trump if they come to the rally and they catch the coronavirus. I mean, at least those people have a choice. The president has forced graduating cadets at west point who have been sent home to return to campus so he can deliver a commencement address tomorrow which we think will be outdoors, so thats good, and could have a photo op with him. 15 of those cadets have already tested positive for the virus. The science here, as tentative and unformed as sort of dynamic as it is suggests our best hope to fight the virus right now if we want to not have lockdown, right, be in some version of normal, our best hope right now is Wearing Masks, washing hands, social distance, but Wearing Masks, Wearing Masks, Wearing Masks. But the president and the Vice President who want to get back to normal not only refuse to wear them, they have effectively turned Wearing Masks into a culture war issue and have stoked this political backlash against those who would dare tell us how to stay safe. In Orange County, california, the chief Health Officer dr. Nicole quick resigned amid backlash and a death threat, death threat, over an order to wear masks. Residents comparing her to a nazi and holding protests at her home. This was the scene at tuesdays Orange County board of supervisors meeting. I have been discriminated five times in the last two days. I have been actually turned away. I cannot go in these businesses without a mask. You are telling me that i have to breathe in co2 when god gave this body the ability to extract that from my body and now you want me to put it back in my body . I have natural rights as a sovereign citizens of the United States. By continuing to keep people in masks, separated and out of work, with no legitimate cause, you are kneeling on the necks of the people and you are continuing to act in a thuggish manner. Guys, its over. Like really . Like, you know . Are we still talking about this . Kneeling on the necks. She compared wearing a mask to killing george floyd and its over. Are we still talking about this . Yeah. People are still dying from it. But thats the view from the white house, that womans view. Ohio is a state that has been a relative Success Story in containing the virus. The republican Governor Mike Dewine has been a leader on the issue. He credited the Health Director of the state as a hero for her role, and that included advising her to lockdown early. It left the state in much better position to reopen. He has now resigned amid lawsuits and protested her home where some people conspicuously carried guns. Some demonstrations featured signs bearing antisemitic messages and referenced her with an antisemimettic slur. She guided her state through a pandemic and for that became a target for reactionary idiots. Look, it is a complicated world we live in. It is not like the experts are all in unison about anything. It is not like it isnt complicated. There have been mixed messages. Were still processing data and there is still all sorts of balances between different kinds of risks, right, what were doing. But we have seen what happens. If there is one thing we know, we have seen what happens across the world and in this country when leaders just shove their fingers in their ears and say, i cant hear you, coronavirus. There is a real danger of letting politics and Political Forces overwhelm Public Health entirely. And we sure as heck should not be punishing Health Experts and leaders for trying to help us help ourselves to stay safe and healthy. Im joined now by the democratic governor of oregon who announced a one week pause in her states move to reopen after 178 new confirmed cases marking the highest daily count in the state since the start of the pandemic. Governor, it is great to have you. Can you take me through your thinking in ordering that oneweek pause . Sure. And its good to see you. So we are taking a one week pause in our reopening. We have seen a number of cases in our county increase. We have not been able to trace all of those cases. We have about 30 of those cases that we cant determine the origin. And were seeing an increase in hospitalization. So my priority as governor is to make sure i protect the health and safety of oregon, so were putting a pause on further reopening efforts. I liken it to my experience as a kid. I grew up in the state of minnesota. We went ice skating in the winter, and after we strapped down our skates, we proceeded cautiously on to the ice. And if the ice started cracking, we stepped back. And we are right now just Holding Steady where were at. If things look better next week, well continue forward. But for right now were going to take a pause. You said of these new cases, there is 30 of them you cant trace. Which means you have traced 70 of them, which means does the state or the local Public Health agencies have testing and tracing capacity to sort of track down these chains of transmission . Yes. Thats the goal. We have been really fortunate here in oregon. I implemented early and aggressive physical distancing measures and shuttered our economy and oregon has made tremendous sacrifices. As a result, we have seen a relatively low infection rate. Its been a challenge then to get the resources for testing that we need from the federal government, but were still working at that. And our local Public Health is working collaboratively with state Public Health to make sure that we have adequate capacity for testing, contact tracing, which really needs to these folks really need to reflect the communities that theyre working in and obviously we have to have isolation and quarantine strategies that once folks test positive or come into contact with someone who is positive, we want them to selfisolate. And folks need help doing that. Sometimes they may need somebody to bring them food. We may need to put them in a motel. They need support and services to be able to do that safely. And local Public Health has been a great partner with state Public Health. Let me ask you about your goal here. It seems to me were a little confused or there are different goals. If you look at south korea, a place like new zealand, hong kong, taiwan, even germany to some extent, what they have basically gotten to is suppression. We seem to be sort of lets kind of ride it out and were just going to trade it off or accept a certain amount of Community Transmission as long as we dont have a spike like we did in se louisiana, michigan or the new york metro area. What is your goal . How do you think about this . What do you want for oregon . What is acceptable to you . I think there are a couple of pieces that are really important to me. We honestly want to keep the infection rates down low and more importantly we want to protect our most vulnerable communities. That includes our seniors, our elders, particularly those living in longterm care facilities. We want to protect our communities of color, our africanamerican community, our latino community, our native American Communities have all been particularly hardhit by this disease. So we want to reduce transmission. We want to make sure that we have an adequate supply of hospital beds in the event of a spike, and we want to protect our health care workers. We have communities around the state, including eastern oregon, that have very limited capacity in terms of health care workers. We want to make sure that we have adequate capacity. But were also asking, chris, i i ask oregonians to be kind and be smart. Were asking each and every oregonian to wear a Face Covering when they go out in public. And you can see folks have gotten quite creative. Yes. This is the sale. On the back we have big foot and the state douglas fur. Thats beautiful. This is a great way for people to protect themselves, neighbors and essential workers. We all should be wearing Face Coverings when we go out in public. Particularly ones with state pride. Governor kate brown of oregon, thank you so much for your time tonight. Great to see you. Im joined now by the managing director of clinical transformation. She was a former senior white house add viviser and primary c physician. What is your reaction when you see those two stories. There is a story in ohio and a story in Orange County of essentially this political backlash, these town meetings you would see over a town zoning proposal. Very angry people that effectively chased Public Health officials out of their position. Well, its completely unfortunate and unnecessary, chris, and honestly it is because theyre following the example from the top. I mean, we have, as you pointed out, at our highest levels of leadership, we have people who are just blatantly ignoring a preventable illness. I emphasize that because all the things you just talked about with the governor are ways to prevent the deaths that are occurring. Well, but there is also something on the other side of this, right . Which is, you know, the ultimate total prevention is complete lockdown. That worked in a lot of places. It brought the epidemic down. The question we all have now is like how to have something thats not locked down that isnt where we dont just say, well, were just going to accept a thousand dead americans a day or 800 dead americans a day and what those tradeoffs look like. It does seem to me the data increasingly points to masks as a key part of that strategy. There has been mixed messages saying dont worry about masks. The data has shown more and more i think its fair to say clustering around the conclusion that masks really matter. What is your read of that right now . I think its as you pointed out, even i was in that category of people in february who did not think that a large part of this transmission was from airpo particles or somethi as close as talking. Now as you hear about super spreaders in close contact with others who have spread the virus, we now know that masks, and i emphasize that masks just protect others from you. Right. So i think thats why. And also not all masks are created equal. The n95 mask that i use as a health care worker, it is called n95 because it prevents about 95 of small particles like the coronavirus from coming through and a surgical mask like you see people wearing in kind of every day kind of health care prevents about 70 . And then a homemade face mask or Something Like what the governor showed you is going to get a lot less. Its not zero, but its not 95 , chris. What i think is important is actually putting this in context with the other things, physical distancing, hand hygiene. If i had to emphasize that more than anything it is that people are also getting lax about all of those things combined. They are. Final question for you, you talked about super spreader events. We have seen big outdoor parties. We have seen protests around the nation. A lot of protesters Wearing Masks but not all. People in close quarters. Again, outdoors. Those are cause for some considerable concern. But given everything we know, an indoor rally, and i dont know what the plan is, if theyre going to do it at half capacity and have people spaced out and maybe require masks, maybe, but a packed indoor facility with people yelling and screaming and cheering next to each other without masks does sound like a worst Case Scenario for a super spreading event. Is that a fair read of the signs . No, thats not only is it a fair read, but we have evidence that thats exactly how we are getting these, quote, super spreader events whether it is in a choir, in a church, at a party. We know that this is just a setup for disaster. Chris, if you add into that people that have chronic conditions. We know that obesity and age are also critical factors and doing worse with covid. All you need for graphic proof is that recent Lung Transplant that a patient had in chicago that you had a completely healthy set of lungs that completely went to zero all because of covid. This is not rhetoric. Its science. Just have the rallies outside. For the love of god, please. Thank you very much. Next, after more than two weeks of nationwide protests following the death of george floyd, were seeing day by day more and more policy changes. The work that still needs to be done, after this. That still ne done, after this sorry im late, everybody, and apologies for my appearance. You look fine. We were just talking about yeah, right. I look like a wanted poster. I didnt have time to get my beard routine in this morning, so. What beard routine . Ah. Well, the key is maple nectar. Gives it that sheen. Is there something wrong with my screen . Mnhmnh. Jamie, what are talking about . Youre right, alan. We should be talking about bundling home and auto with progressive, not this luscious mane of mine. [ laughs ] jamie, do you know what a beard is . Weve always put safety first. And we always will. For people. For the future. And there has never been a summer when its mattered more. 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Awesome. Xfinity x1 just got even better with peacock premium included at no additional cost. No strings attached. Just say peacock into your voice remote to start watching today. In the wake of the Police Killing of george floyd, this has been action. Today louisville mayor signed a ban on no knock search warrants. The three officers involved remain unarrested or indicted. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo signed a bill making new York Police Disciplinary Records public, which seems like a natural thing for the First Time Since 1976. Those have been locked away from our eyes. And the San Francisco mayor announced the citys police officers, this is interesting, will no longer respond to calls for help in noncriminal matters. They will instead be replaced by trained, unarmed professionals. Last week, Los Angeles Mayor announced he would seek to cut up 150 million from the budget to reinvest services for communities of color in that city. There is a deep question about the local and particularly the federal level and if there is any change in the attitude of republicans and whether their recent vows for progress or real or just rhetorical. Just yesterday, the Republicanled Senate Judiciary Committee approved a judicial nominee who has questioned whether Voter Suppression exists and who the naacp says will not be a fair and neutral judge for issues paramount for people of color. This committee is advancing a judicial nominee with an anticivil rights record. His record is antithesis to what the American People are marching for and demanding right now. Joining me on the phone for more on the push for lasting reform, a civil rights leader out of North Carolina and now nationally, reverend dr. William barber. Hes cochair of the Poor Peoples Campaign, author of the new book. Reverend, how much of this do you view at the National Level from republicans who, for instance, voted out of committee to change confederate generals names, how much do you think is lip service and pushing on republicans . Chris, thank you so much for having me on. Those folk in the streets and us who have been marching and pushing for a long time recognize that we really are calling for a third reconstruction, a fundamental restructuring of america in five areas, systemic racism, systemic poverty, ecological devastation and religious nationalism. You have to do all of that if you are dealing with racism and clashes and the violence that comes from that. Police violence is one piece of the violent ways in which Public Policy destroys the lives of black people, people of color and white people. What the politicians, some of them want, is they just want to do something to get folks out of the street and end it. What one little thing can we do . And what one little thing can we do to get people to go home . And thats not whats happening in the street. I say that to either democrats who want to just pass a moderate bill or republicans who want to claim to be antiracist with their mouth. What they really are is theyre antiwhat happened to george floyd and what happened on camera. If that didnt happen on camera, we wouldnt be here. But they are not yet ready for full transformative dealing with racism. The streets are saying, third reconstruction. The politicians are saying, lets just do something the least amount we can do to get a claim that were antiracist but not really fundamentally shift the system, and thats where the tension is. So what then becomes of that . Because we have seen we have seen people in the streets quite a bit actually as i think back about the last few years. People have been in the streets over the last ten years or so in various forms. The movement that you were part of and led on monday in North Carolina where people were getting arrested in the state capital. There has been a fair amount of street protests. It has produced sort of a productive tension in the kind of tradition of direct action. But what do you see as the next step now . Well, remember now, that took us four years, but we beat back every racist Voter Suppression case. We beat them in court. Now were posed to have a brandnew election monday. We replaced the governor. We were the only state to block trump down ticket. When you talk in terms of reconstruction, it was never a few weeks. Reconstruction always happens in years. So what i see is this a what you see in the street now, its about george floyd, but its also about folks saying, i cant breathe. That i cant breathe is a shorthand for how people feel when the state is blocking health care. I cant breathe when the state is suppressing the vote. I cant breathe when the state is forcing meat workers who are mostly black and brown to go into lethal situations without giving them what they need, i cant breathe. What we have to do is whats happening in the street but mandates and Public Policy. Thats why on june 20th, 2020, yo the Poor Peoples Campaign called for a mass asemily march on washington digitally. We had planned to be on pennsylvania avenue. Were going to do it digitally. But whats going to happen that day is you will see white coal miners connecting with black folks in mississippi saying together were going to fight these five interlocking injustices. Theyre registering people to vote because poor and low wealth people connected together hold the key to political transformation in this country. Let me ask you a final question for you on exactly that note. You have you have worked very long and hard at producing these kind of multiracial coalitions and studied the way they have come asunder particularly in the south in the past and trying to stitch them together. What do you make of what we have seen about polling, about Public Opinion on these matter among white folks and their participation, i mean, even as we look at denver. If you look at the protests, it is very striking immediately in all these protests at how deeply multiracial they are. Whats happening . Well, three things. Number one, theyre saying moderation is not acceptable anymore. Theyre saying that we have to deal with death in america. Im doing a sermon this sunday called america accepting death. It is no longer an option. People are saying that Public Policy kills, whether its Police Violence or the lack of health care that kills or the lack of clean water that kills or even voting rights, chris. When you suppress the right to vote, it is deadly. It has a death measurement because it allows people to get elected who block health care, living wages and all of those things they block that kills. Dave sha pel, i heard him today. He said something, what is all this in the street thats saying, were sick of all of it. Were sick of all of it. Were at a place now. My grandmother said you scratch a liar, you find a thief. You scratch a racist, you find an antiunion, an antihealth person, antiliving wage. We have seen it at the white house, but people are starting to see racism is targeted at black people, but it also has a class element to it and that racism also is against democracy. So either we are going to stand together for life or were going to continue to allow these deadly policies to exist. And i think what you are seeing is this third reconstruction of people coming together and saying, listen, this is not just a one off. This is not just a little blowing off steam as dr. King would say. This is Serious Business in the voting booth, and i think you will see it not for days and weeks to come, but for years to come. Im glad to see it. We will stand with everybody to help make the changes that need to happen. If we dont have the changes, chris, god help us. If we dont turn these tears into Public Policy, then god help us as a nation. Its in the midst of a pandemic, in the midst of all this outright racism, in the midst of all of this economic downturn, if we cant change now, god help us as a nation. Reverend dr. William barber, it is always great to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Next, her sons death preceded what would become the black lives matter as we know it. She joins me to talk about her journey next. About her journey next try bounce wrinkle guard dryer sheets. The bounce wrinkle guard shorts have fewer wrinkles and static, and more softness. Its the worlds first mega sheet that does the job of three dryer sheets bounce out wrinkles. There are so many toothpastes out there, which one should i use . Try crest pro active defense. It neutralizes bacteria for a healthier mouth than even the leading multibenefit toothpaste. Crest. In an unprecedented crisis. A more than 10 billion cut to Public Education couldnt be worse for our schools and kids. Laying off 57,000 educators, making class sizes bigger . Cmon. Schools must reopen safely with resources for protective equipment, sanitizing classrooms, and ensuring social distancing. Tell lawmakers and Governor Newsom dont cut our students future. Pass a state budget that protects our public schools. But my main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin. If i had a son, hed look like trayvon. And, you know, i think they are right to expect that all of us as americans are gonna take this with the seriousness it deserves and that were going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. A little more than eight years ago. It was zimmermans eventual acquittal that helped lead to the formation of the black lives Matter Movement as an organized rallying cry. That cry has now become the name of this 21st Century Civil Rights Movement which has gone stronger than ever following the death of george floyd. We have seen multiple people in this movement who engaged in protests and advocacy work, move into politics and seek elected office. 17yearold son jordan davis was killed in 2012, the same year also in florida, she now represents a district in georgia that includes atlanta suburbs and shes seeking a second term in november. The mother of Michael Brown was killed by police in 2014, ran for a seat in missouri last year but came up short. Now Trayvon Martins mother is running for office. First announced her campaign for seat last year. This week she announced she has officially qualified as a candidate and she joins me now. It is great to have you on. I wonder if you could just talk about your decision to run for office, how you came to think that was a path for you. I worked for Miami Dade County, the seat that im trying to reach right now. I worked for Miami Dade County for 20 plus years. And as i did my research to try to decide what seat i felt would be best for me, i decided that im a longtime resident of Miami Dade County, im a longtime employee of Miami Dade County. I have gone to elementary, middle school, high school and college right here in Miami Dade County. And, so, im used to being service to the residents and so i just felt that that was the best place for me. A lot of times people go for higher levels, but i just felt like, you know, even though im a National Figure i felt that my passion belongs right here in Miami Dade County. I know that you were at George Floyds funeral, and i can imagine how difficult that was for you. And i wonder how you deal with being involved in this struggle when the trauma and emotional pain of it must be extremely present in your life. Absolutely. Sometimes i have to take time out, you know, just for myself, just to grieve other peoples death. Sometimes i find the similarities with what has happened and some of the things that happened with trayvon, with eric garner with, you know, Michael Brown, hamilton, oscar grant, like i find the similarities and sometimes i just have to be quiet. I have to grieve in my own time and come out in my own time and decide to talk. It took me a minute for me to even talk about audrey, Ahmaud Arberys death was trayvon was minding his own business as well. This young man was jogging through a neighborhood and people can think they can take the law into their own hands. So now im just im just grateful that people are able to see what we have as africanamericans been complaining about for quite some time. What do you think about the moment we live in now, the phrase black lives matter i think was first posted as a kind of rallying cry in the wake of the acquittal of george zimmerman, it has become the name for this movement that is the most vibrant social movement of recent memory, i think. We have seen the most sustained and widespread progress in a very long time. What do you think is happening right now . I think people are more aware. I think the complaints that africanamericans have been having like other people have actually saw it because because of the video. I think this has happened so many times but we didnt have a video. So now that we have video, its picked up momentum because you actually are seeing a young man being killed by the police right in front of your face. And once you see that, you cant take it back. It tugs at your heart. It tugs at your mind and you say, something is wrong. They did not treat him as a human being. We all should be treated as a human being, regardless of your race, your religion, your sexual orientation, regardless of any of those things, you should be treated as a human being. So we have to get back to the basics, chris. Final question for you. I think i had seen some discussion of your ideas policywise on the county commission. There has been this call to defund the police in response to police abuse. Its a long standing call. Its not just in the wake of george floyd. But i wonder how you think about reform and what you think about the phrase. Well, i actually think something has to be done. We cannot have police with the authority to just kill somebody and take somebodys life so nonchalantly as if his life didnt have value. We need to value everybodys life. But i think that before you defund the Police Departments, we need to look at other areas that might be able to help the Police Department do what they need to do like social services, like parks and rec to get our young people off the street. Then also you need to make sure the police have the proper training. You need to make sure that they understand that you can Say Something and you can speak out if something is not going right. We have to know right from wrong, even police officers. And so now we have come into an end where we have to determine who is policing the police. And so we got to make sure that thats in place before we move forward with anything. We have to make sure that thats in place. If they need counseling, then we need to give them counseling. If they have drug or alcohol problems, we need to address those issues. We need to make sure they have some type of sensitivity training because we cannot have a life being taken as if it has no value. Every life has a value. The mother of Trayvon Martin now a candidate for county commissioner of miamidade. Thank you so much for making time for us. Thank you, chris. Coming up the Trump Administration Just Announced the public has no right to know who theyre bailing out with half a trillion dollars in business loans. Katie joins me ahead. Can my side be firm . And mine super soft . With the sleep number 360 smart bed, on sale now, you can both adjust your comfort with your sleep number setting. But can it help keep me asleep . Absolutely, it intelligently senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both effortlessly comfortable. And snoring . No problem. And done. So you can really promise better sleep . Not promise. Prove. Its the final days to save up to 600 on select sleep number 360 smart beds. Plus 0 interest for 48 months free premium delivery when you add a base. Ends monday. If federal governments economic response to the coronavirus has drawn critiqued from across the ideological spectrum. A lot of them have been pretty on the money. There is misaligned incentives. There has been not so Great Administration of those programs. Lost amid all of it is something pointed out in a great opinion piece in buzzfeed news. In a lot of ways things have been pretty good. A huge amount of money has been pumped into the system. Get this. Household income actually went up in april and personal savings spiked to its highest level in april. All that because of the money that was pushed into peoples Bank Accounts and pockets. But tom points out the economy right now is like a jumbo jet in a steady glide after both its engines flamed out. Much of the stuff that is helping people out is going to expire. Some of it will expire soon. A federal law that bans evictions on properties that fairly back mortgages expires on july 25th. The extra 600 a week americans get in unemployment payments, which has been a key part of this, that will end on july 31st. Student loan payments start again at the beginning of october. The more than four million homeowners who received a six month pause on their mortgage need to start making payments at the end of the october. The irony is if all that happens and people feel that hit and the recovery stalls, it would be terrible for the country, number one. It would also be terrible for donald trump who is the incumbent president and who has been using the relief bill in his latest campaign ad to get reelected, ending all the stuff thats in the bill would be terrible for him terribly as the incumbent president running for reelection. But democrats in congress are the ones pushing at every step for more money, more support, more relief for americans. They just passed trillions of dollars in new relief in a house bill called the heroes act even though if they are successful, it will likely benefit the president , which is to say they are doing the right thing, and that is how it should be. But do not for a second think the Senate Majority lead eer mih mcconnell would not be throwing an anchor to the drawning economy. We have seen this before. He said it was his job to make sure president barack obama would be a one term president. He pushed against that eras much, much, much smaller stimulus package. When republicans took over the house in 2011, they played an absolutely insane game of chicken with the debt ceiling autogoated on by Mitch Mcconnell that threatened the u. S. To fault and instilled rigid os terty and slowed the economy for millions of americans. O that party is by no means perfect, but that is the case. Then there is one that is not. Thats it. I mean, get this. Even joe biden is currently campaigning to spend trillions more to help the economy right now, six months before donald trump will run for reelection and be boosted if the economy is good. All that said, the way the Trump Administration has been going about this relief and who is getting it is pretty dodgy. This week, they tried to tell us we cannot know where hundreds of billions of dollars worth of public money went. We will talk to someone fighting for that very issue next. Fightig for that very issue next driver guys guys check it out. Safe drivers save 40 safe drivers save 40 safe drivers save 40 thats safe drivers save 40 . It is, thats safe drivers save 40 . Hes right there. Its him hes here. Hes right here. Hi hi. Hey thats totally him. Its him thats totally the guy. Safe drivers do save 40 . Click or call for a quote today. Safe drivers do save 40 . I have moderate to severe pnow, theres skyrizi. Things are getting clearer, yeah i feel free to bare my skin yeah thats all me. 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[ laughing ] back when the massive coronavirus rescue package was passed, there were a bunk of democrats raising concern that there was not enough transparency requirements in the bill for the government would be lending or just giving businesses. The Trump Administration played hardball at that point. They seemed to care about keeping the money free from transparency almost more than anything else gurks those negotiations. While there were concessions they basically won and now were reaping the reward. Steve mnuchin said they will not be relieving any information whatsoever about specific borrowers in the president s 500 million rescue line to the Paycheck Protection Program. As relates to the names and amounts of specific ppp loans, wee believe thats proprietary information and for many cases in sole proprietaries and Small Businesses is confidential information. Government wash hogs and democrats in congress are not having it. Congress kwoom katie porter tweeting out, as a law professor i give ma nunch haes argument an f and democratic congresswoman is on with me now. Ly start off, congresswoman, by saying im confused and i confess this frequently but im confused. There was a half a trillion for big businesses that would be a fed lending fail scility and th didnt get used because the fed bailed them out so were not talking about that. The transparency was not on the Big Corporation side, even though thats where we all anticipated it would be, correct . We have transparency initiatives on both programs, not surprisingly, since its the treasury secretary creating a transparency problem. But youre absolutely correct with regard to half a trillion dollars thats where we put into the law distinctive mechanisms, most notably the congressional oversight commission, and that commission is currently awaiting a wear person. But what were talking about today is the Paycheck Protection Program, ppp, 650 billion lifeline for our Small Businesses in which the secretary is refusing to give us the necessary information. So were sure that program is working and working fairly. So i guess the argument, as i understand it and i will make to you and you can tell me why it gets an f, if you talk about say like a carwashing place in irvine, california, where you are or a cafe, if you knew what the loan was, you would essentially know what their overhead is, what their rent and their payroll roughly is, and that would, i dont know, help you competitively some way if you want to buy out the car wash i guess . Is that the argument . As i try to make it, im stumbling, but i think thats the argument. Yeah, you sound like one of my students whos struggling his way towards an f. No, at least five reasons why the argument the secretary made is incorrect. First, the traditional sba loan already have to be disclosed. And two, the ppp application itself, the application Small Business owners filled out, clearly stated that it would be disclosed, the amount of the loan, terms of the loans, all of these things. Boroers here have no expectation of privacy. Third, the size of the ppp program is unprecedented. This is a tremendous amount of expenditure. This is the largest Small Business loan in our governments history. Fourth, there are already numerous examples of abuse of a ppp program. We saw it request ruth chris and others. Then the ppp limitation has been plagued by inequities. Different states not given the same amount of resources, minority owned businesses, smallest, most vulnerable businesses not getting help. This is why, these five reasons, debunk the secretary treasurys argument and why senator Kamala Harris and i are calling on the treasury to disclose this information. So it seems to be when there was a distortion about what you think of Large Businesses using ppp and that being abused, did the Trump Administration just be like were going to stop doing that because we dont want those it seems like me they said we dont want more stories like that so we just wont tell you. I think theres two things to note. First is the use of the word story, these things came to light because of journalists, because of reporting, and yet the secretaritriry is refusing to respond to information requests from news outlets across the spectrum and across the country who are seeking information to find out about those very same kinds of abuses. So thats the first thing you will notice. The second thing to know is i dont think we actually have any information to suggest the treasury didnt anything but rather the businesses themselves when the stories came out decided to give the money back voluntarily. I dont have any idea the treasury itself is doing any oversight at all, which concerns me. Let me make another argument related to that, which is kind of like there was a ppp shaming happening, which i understand the impulse of, but if its a subsidy for the business, its not a ub subsidy for the payroll, we want to keep businesses attached to their employer and businesses afloat, the atlanta ritzcarlton, i dont care, they employ people. They should keep going. Like you would create the dynamic of shaming would end up having negative effects on these businesses as they try to like emerge out into the reopened economy. Thats absolutely true that Big Corporations are also big employers. And that means that companies of all different sizes might need help during this economic recession, during this pandemic. But we wouldnt necessarily put the same conditions on all different kinds of businesses. The reality is these are not loans. These are forgivable loans. The in essence free money. So its entirely appropriate for the government to take steps to protect taxpayer dollars to be an appropriate fiscal watchdog and make sure companies are not just taking free money to do who knows what with, that theyre actually taking this money and using to in fact keep people on payroll. And we kcant do that oversight if we dont know what businesses received the loans. You cant actually check up on the work if they actually kept the people. Absolutely. We know we have a skyhigh Unemployment Rate so we need to figure out is this program working . What business and what industries is it working for . Thats why i have a bill called the Paycheck Protection Program Transparency Act to give us exactly this dwatia we need to do appropriate oversight. Congresswoman katie porter, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. That is all for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. It good evening, chris. Thanks, my friend. I appreciate it. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour as well. Happy to have you with us this friday night. In 2005 the super bowl was played in jacksonville, florida. Reason that was noteworthy when it happened is because at that time jacksonville, florida, was the smallest city to host a modern super bowl. In 2005 the population of jacksonville, florida, was fewer than 800,000 people. But come the week of the super bowl, an extra 100,000 people flooded into that city. That is a huge expansion in the number of people who are ever in jacksonville