Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20200923

And realize hes not looking out for you. The truth is hes putting those lives at risk. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york, im chris hayes. Amidst the grief and devastation over the loss of Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader ginsburg, it immediately became clear to democrats, progressives and liberals and the entire broad ro Majority Coalition in this country, the central left, antitrump coalition, that there was going to be this enormous fight over her potential replacement. The stakes are as high as ac possible, and the question has been, well, okay, what is the plan . Ok and at first, the big focus was on trying to peel off the four republican senators that would be needed to block a nominee. And there were some encouraging initial signs both alaska senator murkowski and senator Susan Collins saying they did not want to vote on a Trump Nominee this late in the game. But it became clear most of the republican senators seeking elections, people that would be subject to this pressure, martha mcsally, corey gardner, tom tillis, that all of them were not willing to break with their party, right . And thats been the way they are throughout. Th well all hang together or well all hang separately. Et then there were the oldtime senators, maybe theyll be institutionalists in this in setting, retiring Lamar Alexander from tennessee, or iowas Chuck Grassley who said in 2018 he would not take up a nomination in this fashion. Of course, that was a lie. The last hope was that utahs mitt romney, notably the one bipartisan vote for impeachment to remove the president would break from the president. But no, he signaled today he support a vote on trumps pick. So republicans probably do have the votes to do this. So there is no magic trick, right . No procedural thing you can do as democrats to stop them. I mean, you can delay, you can make it difficult, and obviously they should do that. But the real question becomes what to do about this if, in fact, they have the votes, which they appear to have. What is the plan . Av because if they are willing to pay any price for this seat, because it is so valuable to them, then the only option left is to make the price as high as possible. And that means you focus on one Donald Trumps nominee in the court could mean, the loss of Health Care Coverage for millions of americans. The loss of the right to an abortion and reproductive t freedom for women. The loss of clean air and water for everyone. The striking down of climate legislation. Of thats all on the table. You make those issues stick to the republicans who are responsible for putting that ar person on the court. What you do not do, and i strongly believe this, is focusn on the actual nominee. Remember, back in 2016, Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell simply refused to hold hearings for president obamas pick, merrick garland, whose credentials were sterling. He was seen as a compromise pick. He was 64 years old, he had a moderate pick. And it was a deft call by Mitch Mcconnell who said hes a perfectly good judge, but we are not voting on him because the American People should decide. President obama and his allies may now try to pretend this disagreement is about a person. The decision the senate announced weeks ago remains about a principle and not a a person. I mean, it wasnt about a principle as we have seen, it was about power. We can stop this and we will. Democrats dont have the power right now to stop it, but they should take the same approach. It is not about the actual nominee. It is about what President Trump and his party are trying to do to this country through this appointment. So boycott the process the same way republicans did with merrick garland. T. Just say we know who their judges are, right . Theyve got a checklist. We know what they stand for. Its not about them. Republicans already know whoever trump picks is going to check the boxes they want checked. There is an intense vetting process to make sure that is the case. That is why South Carolina senator lindsay graham, chair of the judiciary committee, can openly say this before theres even a nominee. Weve got the votes to confirm Justice Ginsburgs replacement before the election. Were going to move forward in the committee and report the nomination out of the committeee to the floor of the United States senate so we can vote before the election. There is no nominee. He says we have the votes, we will confirm this person as yet named. Youre not going to convince these republicans to change their minds, so all you can do is make them pay. N democrats, and everybody else, has to remind people what these Vulnerable Senate republicans to could be responsible for. Er for instance, the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments for a n case aimed at utterly al obliterating obamacare on november 10th, a week after the election. Thats when the Supreme Court scheduled it to keep the temperature down. If this new justice helps strike down the Affordable Care act, then 133 million americans with preexisting conditions are no longer protected. Ns Insurance Companies can charge whatever they want or keep them away from coverage. 21 Million People could lose their insurance. 12 million folks on medicaid right now, the Medicaid Expansion, thrown out the window. T 800,000 people with open opioid addiction could lose treatment. And this case is going to be heard a week after the election. And if they rule on this next te spring, it would still be in the midst of a pandemic thats already killed 200,000 people, and sickened 7 million. So democrats need to be clear about the corrupt bargain the b republicans are making. Co Democrat Senate candidates were expected to potentially pick up seats in states like maine and arizona and colorado, right . All states that have been st trending democratic or Hillary Clinton won. The polling shows there are a lot of more legitimate races at place across the country. These are races people didnt expect. And i know it can be hard to see this right now, and people dont trust the polling, and everyone has trauma from 2016. But if you look at the picture, republicans are not in good hear political shape right now. And doing this, this move, which polling says people do not is support by wide margins. That could lead to people taking away from health care. It will not happen. C look at this, just the past few days, polls showing Cal Cunningham up six points in north carolina. Democratic candidate theresa greenfield up three in iowa over joni ernst. And the democrat up by a point in georgia. Then it gets more remarkable from there. These are recent polls. Democrat Jaime Harrison, who will be joining us, down to just one to Lindsey Graham in South Carolina. O mike espy down by one in mississippi. South carolina, mississippi, and texas, all with Competitive Senate races. Winnable races for democrats. Right . Republican incumbents are favored in all those places, of course they are favored. But theyre sweating. And Many Democrats clearly view a battle over health care in the midst of a pandemic the president has bungled, leading to the unnecessary death of tens of thousands of our fellow americans. They view that fight as being in their favor. Raphael warnok is a pastor, democratic candidate running for senate in georgia. Theres two Senate Elections in georgia. This one is a special election. Hes not gotten a ton of attention because its a weird special election. A whole bunch of candidates can be in runoff if no one gets 50 , it can be hard to poll. But he has a chance and he viewc the obamacare fight as a lifeline at this point. Ob check out this new ad. Health care is an economic issue. Its a Public Safety issue. And for me, its a moral issue, too. Fo i firmly believe that in our country, everybody, whether rich or poor, should be able to receive Quality Health care. Yet even during a pandemic, my opponents are focused on repealing the Affordable Care act and gutting protections for the 1. 8 million georgians with preexisting conditions. Im raphael warnock, and i know we can do better. If republicans are forcing a conservative justice on to the court 40 days before the election, somebody who could overturn roe and strike down Carbon Pollution legislation the democrats might pass in the future, then you just have to make those republicans pay the political price. Every single cent of it. Because every single vote makes a difference from what the universe is going to be going forward. That accounts for Election Night and whether Election Night is close and they try to steal it l through the courts and the l Supreme Court justice they just confirmed, and that pertains to whether the democrats can add justices to the Supreme Court after the election or grant ur statehood to d. C. Or puerto rico. Eh adding new senators or anything else. All of those discussions depend upon maximizing the short term political price over the next 40 days. So that it can pay off in the longterm. That should be the plan. No one can lose sight of that. Im joined by former democrat senator Barbara Boxer of california, a Teaching Fellow at the university of southern california. Si also with me, 2008 president ial Campaign Manager for president obama, david plouffe. Author of a citizens guide to beating donald trump. David, let me just start on this political landscape, a combination of the polling we li have seen at the state level. That iowa polling has been wild. Joni ernst is really in a fighti for her life, and the stated intention by the Republican Party to jam this nominee through, what do you think that means politically . Ro well, chris, i agree with you. Its time to make sure they pay a maximum price, both in this election, and if the democrats win back the senate or the whita house, next year. E so lets look at some of those polls, whether they be mississippi, iowa, South Carolina. Be they are surprisingly robust for democrats. But you know, youre at 44, 45. I think preginsburg, my view was we were going to lose a bunch of senate races by a point or two, just shy of 50. Wo but i think this upsets the political apple cart. You have an unpopular president ramming through an unpopular la process to nominate and confirmr someone who is going to join their colleagues on the Supreme Court to do wildly, deeply unpopular things. Honestly, if Democratic Candidates cant make this work for them over the next six weeks, its political malpractice. Youve got health care on the line, Voting Rights on the line, clean air and clean water on the line. And, again, voters will sometimes excuse candidates who do things they dont agree with. But all these republican senators who, back in 2016, said mark my words, when a republican makes this nomination in their last year, we wont confirm, they look like weasels bowing down to President Trump. And so i think its the policy reality of whats going to happen in the Supreme Court. But its also them. They look so weak and so calculating. And theyre doing this for the benefit of king trump, not for the voters in their states. So im deeply unsettled about what the court is going to do. But all you have is to make them pay the maximum political price, and i think democrats can do that. Th senator boxer, your former colleagues in the Senate Democratic caucus, i wonder how theyre viewing this. Theres a desperate desire to block this nominee, whoever it is, because of the unfathomable duration and danger of a 63 conservative court. Is there anything to be done or basically with the announce mend today, they do have the votes. You could what do you do . Do you try to delay it . U there seems to me theres only so much you can do. Chris, at the end of the day, i agree with your analysis and davids, as well. Y ky tell you right now, no senator of either party likes to go against their leader. You pay a price for that. To but theres also a bigger pricet to be paid here, and that is youre going to lose your seat because this is very clear. Its easy for people to understand that the court is going to take up the Affordable Care act, that before it was hanging by a thread, and regardless of who President Trump puts up, and i think youre right, it doesnt matter who it is. We know theyre going to vote to get rid of it. And that is going to impact almost every single american. Not just those that get their Health Insurance at the exchange, but all of us who have wanted protections, who have been able to get health care, even with the preexisting condition, weve been able to keep our kids on our insurance until the age of 26. So not only do they look like hypocrites and double dealers, they look weak as david said. And david is one of the best he got me through so many president ial races when i was nervous. Do you remember, david . I would always say, give me the news. And he was always right. So you both have hit on something important. I dont think this can be stopped. In yes, delayed and we should delay. Ld the likely idea of boycotting. Because why are we boycotting if we do that . Its to save health care. Its to save the court. And to save the American People let me ask, interesting to me that i want to go back to you, david. One thing i would add, senator, the actual case before the court on november 10th is almost c comically weak. Just on legal grounds, theres no actual injury, theres no standing, the remedy is preposterous. It should get laughed out of court. Be we know that it hasnt and lots of republican judges are ar like, lets strike down the whole thing. But on the political thing, the idea of just say thing is a principled opposition to something that is fundamentally a kind of transgression, fundamentally attacked by trump and the republicans, as opposed to sifting through the past opinions like the sort of standard playbook. That seems to me to bring some peril politically for democrats. Well, listen, i like the idea of boycotting, chris oh, sorry. Oy go ahead, david, then ill go to you, senator. I think you might say its an extreme measure. But this whole thing is a farce. And Mitch Mcconnell, hes not even a human being. He was a cyborg sent to this planet to destroy it. So we cant play by any normal rules here. You mentioned what happen it is the democrats win the white house and the senate. If the democrats get rid of the filibuster and expand the Supreme Court, they should add statehood to puerto rico and d. C. , they should have a list of things on climate, health care, Voting Rights and do them all. Because theres no use getting rid of the filibuster unless yo exhaust that list. Because you know the republicans will do that. So grab the power, and then utilize it. And unlike the republicans, do it on behalf of most of the country, whether its on health care, on climate, on Voting Rights. I think that i dont say that lightly. But we are not in normal times. I think everything we care about is on the line. So we have to use extreme measures, both to win the election, but then afterwards. As senator boxer, you know this caucus well. You know dianne feinstein. A lot of them are procedurally conservative, theyre institutionalists, they dont like do you see this as a radicalizing moment for your colleagues in that caucus about being more procedurally maximumalists . I think its a moment to really look at the world as it is today. We have been betrayed by the republicans. The democrats have been betrayed, but more importantly,b the people of this country. They said, and we have it on tape, and we could listen to it over and over, they would never consider, you know, voting for a Supreme Court justice in an Election Year for the presidency. So theyve betrayed us. Everything has to be on the table. Use our power for the good of humankind. Thats what we should do. I agree with that. Barbara boxer and david plouffe, great to have both of you tonight. Thank you so much. Next, is Lindsey Graham sealing his own political fate . Brand new polling in South Carolina. And grahams democratic challenger, next. What if i sleep hot . Or cold . Introducing the new sleep number 360 smart bed. Now temperature balancing, so you can sleep better together. Can it help keep me asleep . 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Com, 5 or 10 from your audience would fill in the gap. That was South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham on trump tv last night, whining about his senate race and begging for money. Senator graham is behaving like a man who is a competitive race, and thats because he is. Democratic challenger taking him on is Jaime Harrison. Yet another poll just out today, Morning Consult showing the two are essentially tied. With 46 of South Carolina voters for graham, 45 for harrison. And that poll comes on the heels of a quinnipiac poll last week showing both of them tied at 48 . That senate candidate, the guy who seems to be rattling senator graham, joins me now, Jaime Harrison, democrat of South Carolina and former Democrat State Party chair. I want to start on the notion, i thought it was somewhat humorous and bemusing last night to see Lindsey Graham say that hes getting outraised and outspent, like you are the goliath in this race, and poor Lindsey Graham is the david, just trying to keep up. Well, chris, as i told lawrence last night, im living rent free in Lindsey Grahams head right now. He cant get on a highway here in South Carolina without see thing big, round head smiling at him. We are all over South Carolina, this movement is Something Like ive never seen before. But people are ready for change here in South Carolina. Were about closing the chapter on the sold salvage that hes a relic of. Im excited about it, and its going to be a sea change here in South Carolina. Lets talk about the Affordable Care act in this case, that will be heard by the Supreme Court and the way it relates to this confirmation battle. Are you confident that defending the aca in the year 2020 as a democratic candidate wins more votes than it loses . Oh, it does. Health care is the number one issue here in South Carolina. As a result of republicans like Lindsey Graham refusing to fully implement the Affordable Care act, we havent had Medicaid Expansion here in South Carolina. Were one of 12 state that hasnt expanded medicaid. As a result, 250,000 people in this state that dont have health care. But if they lived in 38 other states they would. As a result of that, weve had four of our rural hospitals that have closed over the past few years. If you live in one of those communities, it doesnt matter if youre a democrat or republican, whether you vote for Jaime Harrison or Lindsey Graham, but if you have complications with diabetes or you need to go to a doctor, instead of it taking you ten minutes to get to the hospital, it now makes you 35, 45 minutes. Thats a death sentence. You dont care if its a democratic or republican solution, you just want a solution. You want the hospital. Youre speaking to me as someone running against a republican incumbent in the state of South Carolina, leaning into the Affordable Care act and preserving and expanding it. Ten years ago, the Affordable Care act in your state was polling what, 3565 under water. You would knockout touch it with a tenfoot pole. It is a striking testament to the trajectory of this legislation, and the protections its embedded, that that is now a win for you politically in this race. Thats exactly right. And part of it is, just the protection for preexisting conditions. So many people here in South Carolina have preexisting conditions that theyre living with or theyre predisposed because of their family lineage. You know, im a borderline diabetic. My grandfather died because of diabetes. And so therefore, that is a preexisting condition. Thats really important. Theres so many people just like me, and have been impacted by these diseases and the disparities. And so we need someone who is going to fight for us, not somebody who is going to fight against us. Lindsey graham offered a bill which did not cover preexisting conditions. So we need to do better. I hope folks will join us at jamieharrison. Com and help us change South Carolina and the nation as a result. Jaime harrison, who is the democratic candidate for senate in South Carolina. Thanks for making a little time for us tonight. Thank you, chris. Still to come, an nbc exclusive interview with the former Coronavirus Task force staffer who quit in protest because she sid the president was more interested in his public image than in saving lives. You dont want to miss it. Right know, it looks like pennsylvania is going to be the single most important state of the 2020 election. According to 538s projection, pennsylvania is the likeliest state to be the Tipping Point state, the state that will provide either joe biden or donald trump with the decisive vote in the electoral college. Joe biden has been consistently in the lead in that state, up by 4 1 2 points in the latest polling average. But thats still fairly close, and we all saw what happened in 2016, right . And a recent rule big the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court could imperil bidens chances. Its about which ballots get counted. In a lot of states, there are a few steps required to correctly send back your mailin or absentee ballot. Heres how it works in pennsylvania. After you receive your mailin ballot and complete all of the ballot selections with a blue or black pen, seal the ballot in the plain white official ballot envelope and place the ballot envelope into the large return envelope. Then sign, date, and complete the voters declaration on the envelope. Now that your ballot is ready to be returned, check to see if its prepaid or needs a stamp and drop it in the mail. Did you catch that about the two envelopes . It is very important. In pennsylvania, and other states, as well, you will receive two envelopes with your ballot. You have to seal your ballot in the plain ballot envelope first, then you put that envelope inside the other one, which is the return envelope, and you send it off. Now, the reason this is done is so ensure that your vote stays anonymous. Officials will check the outer envelope to make sure the information is correct. The vote is valid, and they open it and theyve got that inner envelope thats still protecting your privacy, containing the ballot but no identifying information and put that in the stack to be counted. It is complicated. I froze when i was filling out my absentee ballot in new york, like do i need both . Sometimes people mess it up. They might think, why do i need this extra envelope for . And they put their ballot straight into the return envelope, they skip the intermediary step. When that happens, its called a naked ballot. In june, the pennsylvania secretary of state advised counties to accept naked ballots as valid and count them. If theyre filled out, theyre fine, other than theyre naked. But guess who rode in to challenge that . Youll never guess. The trump campaign, and other republicans sued pennsylvania, arguing that no, naked ballots should not be counted. Last week, the pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled in their favor. So if voters do not include that second envelope, their vote will not be counted. Philadelphias top Elections Official warned there could be tens of thousands of votes being thrown out. So we are trying to do our part to make sure everyones vote counts with this public education. But also, if theres a billionaire out there with some money burning a hole in their pocket and a belief in democracy, pennsylvania might not be the worst way to spend that. Go ahead, anybody else . The president is trying to ignore those types of questions and pretend the Coronavirus Crisis doesnt exist. But there are 200,000 American Families whose loved ones have been killed and theyre harder to ignore. Last night, President Trump told the crowd at his rally, a rally not unlike the one herman cain attended in tulsa, the virus affects virtually nobody. Dr. Craig spencer, stated the obvious today people worked alongside the president know that this is true. Olivia troye worked as a top adviser on the Coronavirus Task force. This month she went public about what she calls President Trumps disregard for human life. She was a top aide to Vice President mike pence and quit in july. Last week, she appeared in an ad saying she will vote for joe biden. The white house is trying to discredit her, but as olivia troye explained to nbc news andrea mitchell, shes got a good reason to speak out. So youre a lifelong republican, but you had been working in National Security since you got out of college, really. You worked at the pentagon, you were in iraq, traveled to afghanistan, worked at the counterterrorism center. Worked in homeland security. Worked as a detail to the white house. Right. What happened inside the task force that made you concerned, what did you see . There were numerous events i would say probably on a daily basis to be honest, of things that were challenging and discussions and just dynamics that i felt were hard, and it was just very challenging to think that you have worked a really long day, you think you have come to a consensus or youve developed a strong effort on something such as, you know, planning on what were going to do. And it was very hard to then come in the next day and either something had happened, a tweet had happened, or suddenly the course of what we were doing had changed because that wasnt really what the president wanted. And its very hard when youre trying to actually base things on science and the data and to have a president that wasnt focused on that. He was really focused on public image, messaging, and it was really more about, you know, his personal agenda than really the agenda that the task force had at hand. Which was, how are we going to save and protect americans . Bob woodward warns about a january 28th warning, when the president was warned by his National Security adviser this was going to be the most serious National Security crisis of his administration. Were you aware of that . I was. I i wasnt there when he was briefed on it, but we certainly had a Task Force Meeting and discussion where we had these this conversation that this was going to be big. That early, january 28th . Late january, we knew. Yet, the president was saying a week later, its going to disappear. Its going to go away. How did that make you feel . It was frightening. You know, when youre the president , words matter. We see in the polling that republicans, by great numbers, are more suspicious of Wearing Masks, are more reluctant to wear masks. Theres a political divide over something as simple as Wearing Masks. And the president did not model Wearing Masks, and held the indoor rally in tulsa without social distancing. Were people inside the task force upset about that . Yes, absolutely. I mean, we had staff ive had conversations with staff who were going on that trip, who were scared. They were scared for their own wellbeing. Scared to go to tulsa for the indoor rally . Absolutely. We were in the middle they were hearing me saying you need to be careful, you need to be safe. We were sitting there in meetings talking about the importance of social distancind, talking about how we were going to roll this out, making sure it was done in a concerted effort. And then we we have this dynamic with the president , who goes and does exactly the opposite of what the doctors and the experts are telling him to do. And it you know, at that point, i mean, how are you going to manage that . How are you going to be successful in protecting the American People . Everything youre doing, i just dont know how you overcome that, if someone who has the National Platform is standing up there. I mean, americans are watching that. Republicans are watching that. And, you know, they have faith. They love him. His base and his followers are, you know, 100 in. But you need to take a step back and realize hes not actually looking out for you. Hes not looking out for these people, hes not looking out for them. He just wants you in that audience so he can have the camera shot of, you know, his fans and the people around him. But the truth is, hes putting those lives at risk. You said to the washington post, you were quoted as saying that the president once said that covid wasnt such a bad thing, im paraphrasing, because i dont have to shake hands with those disgusting people. Did the president of the United States really say that . Absolutely. I was sitting to the right of him in the room when he said it. And he said he said he actually never liked shaking hands with people. He said when youre a politician, you have to shake a lot of hands. You have to shake a lot of hands and these people are disgusting. Its gross. So maybe covid is probably a good thing, right . I dont have to shake hands. I dont have to do that anymore. I couldnt believe he was saying that. We had a serious agenda, you know, to go over, and he didnt join a lot of the Task Force Meetings. But this was one of them. So we were happy to have his attention and hoping we would make some serious progress on some things. But the last thing i expected was his focus to be on that. I mean, even if youre thinking about it, i cant believe he would say that out loud. I mean, these these these people are are suffering right now and theyre worried about or youre happy about the fact that you dont have to touch them anymore. Are you aware of the recent interference in scientific reports, like the morbidity report and other cdc reports from Political Public Affairs people over there . I saw that increasingly happening towards the end of my tenure. And i can say that firsthand i saw it happening while i was there. I was a part of that. How did it go down . There was a lot of there was a lot of political pressure internally to word things in the right way. Where did that come from . The pressure . It came from the fact that they were looking at political voting and and, i guess, were in an Election Year, so it was coming from how do you preserve the votes of perhaps evangelical christians and churches . And, you know, perhaps companies, donors. I cant speak to that directly, but it certainly was very odd to be talking about, you know, meat packing guidance or how to open up those factories or what to do or how to open up churches and flatout say your guidelines are too restrictive, cdc. Well, its the cdc. Its their job to know what to do. Theyre the experts. Theyve spent their entire life, you know, studying this. Thats the person that worked on the task force saying the president doesnt care if people get sick and die, does not care. Took steps so that more people would get sick and die. She was there. Thats olivia troye, just the latest insider to confirm whats been obvious from the start, the president has about continues to fail the fundamental duty to protect the people of this country. Were going to talk about what actually is happening in this country, as infections grow as we get into the colder months, next. If theres a single maddening truth weve learned the hard way after the deaths of more than 200,000 americans its that having bars and restaurants probably open for business during a pandemic is fundamentally incompatible with Public Health. Dr. Anthony fauci told me as much when i interviewed him last week. It also appears to be a lesson the world has to learn over and over again. Today after spending months encouraging people to go back out there, uk Prime Minister Boris Johnson ordered uk pubs and restaurants to close arsenal, probably for the next six months while the country goes for a pretty bad spike in covid cases. Spain is also seeing a pretty big rise in cases, so is israel, which just imposed a second nationwide lockdown. The u. S. Outbreak is still worse than all those countries and this is a relatively good point in our virus trajectory. Yet still in this country, we have lots of bars and restaurants open even as were forced to close schools. As the doctor testified to congress this afternoon, that makes no sense. I think about a third of the country could go back to school quite safely given the spread. In another third, we do need to bring it down a little. You could open up k6 right now. Older kids, the virus level is going to be a little lower. Everybody has to wear a mask. Other parts of the country the virus level is so high, we need to work on bringing it down. Id close bars and Indoor Dining before id close schools. And i say this as a person who loves genuinely loves bars and would like to see them not all go out of business. It really does am i wrong. Bars are Public Health enemy number one right now. Yeah. So, chris, thanks for having me on. Especially british pubs, which i love, but they are sort of almost perfectly designed to spread the virus, right . Because youre indoors. Youre not wearing a mask. And lets be honest, after a pint or two, people let down their guard. Right. And start getting close. And start speaking more loudly and singing and doing all the things that basically make it almost a sure fact that youre going to spread the virus in that environment. So as much as people may love bars, we may have not we may, we need to live without them for a year until we get this virus under much better control, and it just seems like weve not been willing to make that sacrifice. And you make the good the point, we can pay the revenue of every bar and restaurant we could do it. It would be like 150 billion. If you include restaurants, only about 30 billion. That would, you think, materially impact how many of our schools we could reopen for bslassroom learning. Look, the biggest predictor of whether we can have inclass learning is community transmission. And now we have, i think, very good data from places that have done good contact tracing. That the two biggest sources of Community Spread seem to be bars and Indoor Dining. And, you know, obviously other indoor gatherings are also going to get you into trouble. So if you can keep other indoor gatherings to a minimum. Pay the restaurants. Pay the bars. I dont want them to close. I dont want those workers to lose their jobs. That would allow us to open up much more of our economy, would allow us to get our kids back to school. It feels like a nobrainer to me yeah. From a financial and a health and an economic wellbeing point of view. Lets look a little bit. I mean, to me, whats happening in europe is just a reminder of the indefatigability of this virus. Its going to keep going. You start going back out there, its going to transmit. We here are in a second plateau after that sort of sunbelt peak. Again, plateau at 40,000 cases. We lost 850 people, i think, just today. It looks to me like were about to go around the merrygoround again. This seems to me like where we were right before we had big outbreaks this summer. Is there a reason to think thats not the case. Yeah, so two quick thoughts on this. I mean, first is, you know, the president s been talking about these big spikes in europe, and i think its worth a little perspective. Germanys big spike is about 1,600 cases. Theyre about a third of our population. So based on the u. S. Population, that would be, like, 5,000 cases. It would not even be a blip in our country. Right. So our plateau is much, much higher than their big spike. Thats point number one. Point number two, the one youre raising, is absolutely right that we went into labor day as about twice as many cases as we went into memorial day. And the bottom line is were starting to see that little tick up that we see after every major holiday. The problem is that we dont have a summer to look forward to where things can be better because people can be outside. In half the country, were going to see people being spending a lot more time indoors. Schools are opening or trying to. Colleges are trying to open. All of that will put more pressure on this. Then there is just the pandemic fatigue. People are getting tired of this. So i am very worried about whats going to happen in the weeks and months ahead. Weve seen so much reporting about pollicization at some of the key agencies, the fda, and most workingly probably, the cdc. You have political hacks, frankly, unhinged political hacks attempting to edit the sort of signature legislation. Youve got olivia troye talking about guidance on churches being struck down because they want to win evangelical votes. When the cdc says its probably not safe to gather all inside. How abnormal is that and what does that do to our response . How much is that the reason we are where we are, i guess is my question . So, a couple of things. I mean, one, you know, ive often thought of the fda and the cdc like, when i talk about them on the hospital wards, ill be rounding with my team and say the cdc says or the fda says. Thats shorthand for here is the Gold Standard for evidence and data, right . That has taken decades to build up that level of confidence in the medical profession among doctors and nurses and, of course, the American People. This administration over the last six months has taken a hammer to that and really tried to destroy that. That is going to take us a while to build back. I think it can. I do think its hampered us because when i talk to public officials, mayors, governors, local officials, they tell me, well, the cdc guidance says this. Youre telling me that. Its very hard to walk them through the evidence. Right. And data and tell them that the cdc has gotten something wrong when we know that the cdc is usually the Gold Standard. I guess on a final note. Something some Little Silver lining which is we do know masking works. It does seem quite clear. The president was making fun of people Wearing Masks and joe biden the side of the virus. But the projections from imhe show that, like, if we could just do that, were talking tens of thousands of lives between now and the end of the year. That difference between the projection and Wearing Masks equals tens of thousands of lives. If we could just do that, we could save a lot of lives. Yeah, absolutely. So there are, like, two or three things and we talked about bars and restaurants. Lets just wear masks. Get 80 , 90 of americans to wear masks and lets make progress on testing. Again, ive been talking about for six months so that feels boring. If we can do those three things, we can get this under control and look forward to a much better 2021. Masks, masks, masks. Dr. Ashish jha, thank you so much. It is always great to talk to you. That is all in for tonight. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. Good evening, chris. Thanks, my friend. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. Big show for you tonight, including an exclusive report tonight, a previously unreported story about the cdcs scientific work on coronavirus being compromised and changed because of topdown political pressure from washington. That is coming up this hour. This is something that we have o been chasing for months. We have finally nailed it down g with multiple sources. Weve got that for you in just a moment. We are also going to speak in just a moment exclusively with senator chuck schumer, who, of course, is the top democrat t in the United States senate. He is at the center of the brawl over filling the seat on the u. S. Supreme court that has now been left open by the death of Justice Ruth Bader ginsburg. This interview with me tonight will be senator schumers firstr