Plus, stunning new scenes of insurrection against the united brutality inspired by the president. Now, i have to warn you the next video is disturbing. States. The rioters planned the violence the digital detective work to its another example how vicious in plain sight online in forums. Find and arrest the and violent the mob was. They spoke openly of hanging perpetrators. The constitu people they saw as traitors. This was a lynch mob. Watch closely here at that the ones that made it up to the arched doorway where the rioters capitol. Dragged out an officer defending the capitol. When they made it inside the capitol you can hear the rioters they bend down and pull him down chanting hang mike pence over the stairs and they start and over. Beating him. Keep an eye on the left side of at least someone in the crowd your screen for the bearded man constructed what appears to be a functional gallows near the in the gray jacket who stands capitol reflecting pool. Above the officer wielding the this was no papiermache prop. American flag and he beats him with it repeatedly. Bringing it down on him. Someone went to a lot of work here. They brought lumber, they built beating an officer with an american flag. Steps up to a platform complete with a noose. Because there had been no official briefings about what friday night we showed you this happened on wednesday, we dont disturbing video from status coup taken at one entrance of know who that officer is or what the capital until which the condition he or she is now in. Violent mob crushes against or just how many incidents like this captured here on Camera Police as they try to gain entrance. There were amidst the mayhem, later in that same video, the the violence at the sprawling capitol complex. Insurrectionists can be heard trying to convince Capitol Police to do their bidding. We do know that the rioters came prepared for action. To join them in attacking for this kind of action. Members of congress that they are convinced are traitors. A Capitol Police officer who fought off the mob last week told buzzfeed, quote, it was a heavily Trained Group of militia terrorists that attacked us. [ bleep ]. They had radios. We need you guys to go with we found them. They had twoway communicators and ear pieces. Us stop they had bear spray. They had flash bangs. Th way in formation up the capitol stop steps. Pro publica and pbs you need to arrest [ bleep ] [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. We dont want to hurt you guys. Are you okay . Are you okay . If youre not going to go [ bleep ]. [ bleep ] [ yelling ] heres the thing. These people were one part of a broader effort engaged in by donald trump, the president of the United States, rightwing media, members of the United States house of representatives and senate all together to overthrow the democratically elected government of this country, the incoming one. Flatly an act of sedition. As we try to digest this footage and think about what happened as everyone terrorized by that day tries to move on and pick up the pieces or try to figure out what happened, what is so horrifying is the fact that all of these people, from donald trump at the very top down to the guy in that video with a gas mask on his head, they were all working toward the same end. After an election in which more than 156 million americans voted, a record, and 7 million more people voted for joe biden than donald trump, and he got more than 270 electoral votes, making him the rightfully elected leader of the United States, all of those people from donald trump on down to the guy in the gas mask, they were all together trying to do the same thing. They were trying to install the defeated man as the head of our government against the will of the American People via any means necessary. That is the project in which all of them were engaged. Including a lot of prominent republicans and conservative activists from turning point usa founder charlie kirk, who tweeted about sending 80 busloads of people to the capitol on january 6th and later deleted that tweet, to texas congressman Pete Sessions who tweeted on january 3rd about encouraging people from stop the steal to keep fighting and that he was looking forward to doing his duty on january 6th. And a whole bunch of his colleagues like congressman andy biggs and paul gosar of arizona and kevin brady of texas and House Minority leader Kevin Mccarthy and senators ted cruz and josh hawley and rick scott and john kennedy, every last one of them up to and including the president and the people around him have engaged in the same plot in the open to seize power for the man who lost. The man that was repudiated by American Voters and american democracy. And for all the talk about 1776 and the dont tread on me gadsden flags, it is those folks who are on the side of tyranny. Theyre on the side of a wouldbe crown. Theyre on the side of might over people power. They wanted to seize power from you, from us as democratic citizens. They wanted a small group of congressmen to take it away. That is what the Republican Party is now associated itself with or in large part has become. Now this country has been through trauma and disaster and war and civil war. And we have wrestled with treason and sedition and those who would seek to destroy american democracy, especially genuinely equitable multiracial american democracy. We fought those battles. The threat posed by these people, frankly, is as serious as anything we have seen at least since then. If there is not accountability for it, they will try again and will have a better chance of succeeding. And if there is any doubt that all of these pieces are all working together toward the same end, then keep in mind the president wanted the mob to go to the capitol. He told them to go there so they could intimidate congress out of counting electoral votes for his opponent, so they can spook mike pence into s capitol in this violent attack, after the beatings of the cops and came within minutes of possibly actually setting upon members of congress themselves. As they started to pick up the pieces with the blood still on the ground, this is what the president s lawyer Rudy Giuliani was up to. This is Rudy Giuliani in a voice mail he left for senator Tommy Tuberville of alabama, one of the president s most staal wartd supporters, telling him to do whatever he can to further delay the counting of electoral votes. Senator tuis is rudy giulian president s lawyer. Togh but it only strategy we can follow is to object to numerous states and raise issues so that we get ourselves into tomorrow, ideally until the end of tomorrow. Take a listen and think about what you just heard. The president s own lawyer. This is after the siege of the capitol. After its overrun. After theyre cowering in a secure room so they dont get torn to shreds by the lynch mob and theyre reconvening to go do their constitutional duty. Rudy giuliani the president s lawyer after all that is calling and he wants the alabama senator to do whatever he can to pick up the baton from the mob. The mob did its job. It delayed things. Now you, you use your position as a u. S. Senator to stop the peaceful transfer of power and the lawful recognition of the democratically elected president. Congresswoman Sheila Jackson lee of texas has been at the forefront of discussions about impeaching the president both the first time around and now. Shes a member of the House Judiciary Committee who just introduced her own impeachment resolution and congresswoman jackson lee joins me now. Congresswoman, my understanding is there was a long call with the speaker today, three hours i believe, to talk about this week. What can you tell us about the sentiment of the caucus now . One thing that we do know for sure is that the president of the United States, chris, is a clear and present danger to the United States of america and to the people of the United States. And while he has been fueling the fires of domestic terrorists, it is tragic that close to 4,000 people every day are dying of covid19. Again, a dereliction of his duty. We realize that he must be removed immediately. And as we come together on the impeachment resolutions and debate it on this coming wednesday, we will take a vote to remove this president by way of impeachment as quickly as we can. And let me just say this. I want to remind americans of those senators, republicans, who after we worked so hard, documented so much in the impeachment proceeding earlier in the last year, i heard individuals say i could not vote to convict because i truly believe he has learned a lesson. What are they thinking now when six people are dead because of his provoking and stoking the fires of violence and domestic terrorism . Six people are dead including two of our precious capitol hill Police Officers. Where have you heard anything along the lines of contrition or selfreflection from republicans now . Ive seen a lot of republicans fan out over the last few days intent on changing the topic or glossing over it. They are very focused on how many twitter followers they have, as you said, as 3,000 plus americans die every day as we put the pieces together on this violence that was beset upon the capitol. Is there anyone in the Republican Party talking about the accountability needed at this moment before we can talk about unity . You know, chris, i was one of those in the gallery, of course, and having been in the capitol during 9 11, i might just say that this was probably the most frightening because i think in 9 11 we got out as quickly as we could. In this instance we were cowering as the not in shame and not because we were fearful so much that we couldnt function, but we were told to bend as much as we could because they were ramming the house, and because of the bravery of plainclothes officers with guns drawn they never penetrated the floor of the house of representatives. I would think after we broke and went into an undisclosed place and people had time to reflect that we would hear more republicans. I have heard some but have not heard any to date, and i hope that we will, that will join us on wednesday to vote for the impeachment resolution. Thats the quiet reflection that we need. But you know, what chris, we need more than quiet reflection. These are many of their constituents that are now planning to storm this seat of democracy, this sacred place, again. Id like to hear some republicans taking to the public space, the public sphere, and be able to say calm these individuals, seek their higher standing, their affection for the flag, their affection for democracy, their understanding that this nation stands for justice for all and equality for all. Thats what we need to hear in order to safeguard this country, in order to respond to more of the American People who frankly have had emails, texts saying they are appalled, they want this nation to be united and they want this nation to have respect and dignity to be maintained for this place of democracy and for our desires to be utilized on the floor of the house and senate. Thats where we debate and show our disagreement. Not with mobs of terrorists raiding through, tearing through precious items and seeking to attack members of congress, to kill our speaker and to kill the Vice President of the United States. Can any republican with a group of them join in and take to a podium and ask for peace . I will join them on that podium. Can we do that together . Thats a great idea. Congressman Sheila Jacksonlee. I think if people are serious about unity then they should be talking about that. And talking about knocking down the lie the president has told them and they have engaged in that this was stolen. It was not. And that would go a long way as well. Congresswoman jacksonlee, thank you very much. It would. And thank you so very much for having us. Anyone listening that is a republican, we beg of you to join us in unifying this nation. Thank you. Five days ago senator chris murphy was rushed out of the senate chamber. Along with his colleagues as the mob broke into the building. Now he and several other democrats are calling for faster deployment of troops to washington to prepare for Security Breaches ahead of inauguration. Senator murphy joins me now. Senator, what is your understanding about the who exactly is running the United States government at this moment . I think the point you raised earlier about the lack of any publicfacing briefing is a really important one. Part of the reason why it is important to remove the president is its pretty clear that he is orchestrating a coverup of what happened on wednesday and that he is prohibiting individuals in the federal government leading federal agencies from standing before the cameras and explaining to the American Public what theyre doing to prevent this from happening in the future. If you had federal Law Enforcement standing in front of the cameras right now telling people how many folks have been arrested, what will happen if you come to washington for the inauguration to try disrupt it, that would be a really important statement. It would be really important to the protection of the peaceful transition of power. Right now my feeling is that these agencies are not speaking to the public because no one is in charge. And one of the things were working on now is creating a clear unified command structure for the inauguration. To make sure there is at least on day one person making all the decisions about how to protect the capitol. That is part of what we have learned failed us on wednesday. There were far too many people that had to sign off on the military or anyone else coming to the rescue of members of congress. I want to ask about your colleagues. You have there are seven members. Seven Senate Republicans who voted to object, to not seat the electors, the rightfully certified electors of states that joe biden won, the president elect won. I feel like those vote the significance of those votes have gotten lost a little bit behind the obvious trauma of the destruction and violence. But those votes on the house and senate side were a vote that we had the longest president ial election of basically any western country as far as i can tell. It goes on, starts in 2015 you know, starts in 2019 and goes for a year. Its billions of dollars are spent when all is said and done. They were voting to say that doesnt were taking that all away from you, it doesnt matter how you guys voted, you the people, the 156 million. Like were just going to give it to him. And i dont think theres a precedent for that in american history. Yeah, they will claim that what they were asking for is a new commission to investigate allegations of fraud and abuse. But they didnt even ask for the establishment of that commission. They didnt even try to get a vote on that on wednesday. The consequence of their actionses if they were successful would have been for the decision over who becomes president to be thrown to the congress and because more states are controlled by republicans and democrats its likely that donald trump would have been made president again for the next four years notwithstanding his landslide loss. So, yes, what they were asking for was unprecedented. Their claims of simply wanting an investigation were disingenuous. I will say, though, it is also important through all of this to recognize the difference in conduct between the leadership of the Republican Party in the house and the senate. I have been disappointed over and over again by mitch mcconnell. I was not disappointed by his speech on wednesday. That stands in direct contrast to Kevin Mccarthy, the leader of the republicans in the house, who participated in the effort to overturn the election. So while we should focus on the actions of those seven, we should also recognize that there were other republicans who did the right thing that day. Kevin mccarthy is not run of them. What do you think about the what the impeachment means for the senate . Theres a lot of question about there is the president elects cabinet to confirm. There is pressing matters as Sheila Jackson lee just said. Were losing 3,000plus people a day on average to covid. It is intensifying. Were getting 200,000 cases a day. Theres a lot that has to happen. How do you think about that when you think about the house handing you for the First Time Ever the second impeachment of a president . Well, what i know is there are 24 hours in a day. And so if the senate is prepared to work, then theres an ability to walk and chew gum at the same time. My sense of history is that civilizations that skip the accountability phase after an attempted coup are those that are doomed to have that insurrection rise again. And this accountability has to include the president. We can process impeachment and also confirm joe bidens appointees and also move forward some highprofile issues in those early days. I just think that well have to work extra long hours to get it done. But this is an exceptional moment that commands us to be able to do more than one thing at once. And if we dont do this accountability the right way, then i think were just inviting for there to be a permanent insurrection in this country that will plague the biden presidency for the next four years. Senator chris murphy of connecticut. Its always good to hear your thoughts. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Next up, the nationwide search for those insurrectionists. Ill talk to one man whose crowd source efforts on social media have already led to positive i. D. S including that man in the black you see here. How hes doing it after this. I feel like were forgetting something. Let me check. Xfinity home gives you peace of mind from anywhere with professionally monitored Home Security built around you. No, i think were good. Good. So when youre away, you dont have to worry. The tent. We forgot. The tent. Except about that. Xfinity home. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Hey look, i found the tent get xfinity home with no Term Contract required. Click or call today. Theres a lot of harrowing footage from wednesdays atoongt capitol. One of the most jarring was shot by huff po politics reporter igor bobic. He was posted while the attack itself was still happening. It showed the trump incited mob and a lone Police Officer facing off inside the capitol building. The officer is clearly outnumbered as he starts to retreat up the stairs. He gets to the top. Theres a moment where he looks to his left down a corridor that actually leads right to the senate. The senate chamber. Its a corridor that appears to be unguarded. As far as we can reconstruct, this was all happening while senators were still in that senate chamber. So the officer puts himself between the mob and the corridor that leads to the senate and then he pushes the guy in the front and leads the mob in the opposite direction, preventing them from gaining access to the entire senate and who knows what else. Now, it can be incredibly difficult to identify members of the mob that stormed the capitol though it is made easier by the fact that many of them werent wear masks and a lot of them were livestreaming. The fbi has put out a request for any information that could help bring these people to justice. Many have already been identified thanks to crowdsourced digital sleuthing. The guy wearing the big q on his shirt, at the front of that mob that chased the courageous officer up the stairs, he has now been identified as doug jensen of des moines, iowa. In part because he tweeted a photo of himself inside the capitol. He was arrested by the fbi and now faces five federal charges. Law enforcement officials are now warning about active plans for more attacks in the coming days and weeks, increasing the urgency to find all the people who stormed the capitol. I want to bring in nbc News Reporter brandy sadrosny who has been covering extremism on the internet since well before the capitol insurrection last week and john scott realton whos a Senior Researcher at the citizens lab at university of torontos monk school whos been leading some of the online crowdsource efforts to identify the rioters at the capitol. John, will he let me start with you because ive been following those efforts and i want to start by saying digital crowd source efforts to identify people on the internet can go horribly awry and wrong and oft rails and ive seen that happen and you have been very responsible in how youre conducting this and for that i praise you. What how much progress have you been able to make in identifying some of the folks most notoriously captured . For the record, i dont really like that guys shirt but i appreciate people who wear highly visible distinctive things thats right. Because thats exactly what were using to track these folks down. And when i say we, of course theres me but there are thousands and now tens of thousands of people who are trying to do something to figure out who these people were as a first step to helping understand what on earth their plans were that day. One of the people i want to talk about one of those people, who has been named zip tie guy. Because i think one of the most menacing images and one of the most disturbing was this individual inside the gallery. I dont i cant remember if its the senate or the house. Thats him there. Hes in tactical gear. He appears to have mace. He might have a pistol. Its hard to tell. He definitely has zip ties and camo pants. And its the zip ties that i think really are so worrying. Because thats a person whos going to take hostages. Thats someone whos going to capture people. Thats the only reason you bring those. What have we been able to learn about that individual . Well, we now his name which is eric munchel of tennessee. And we know it because this gentleman wore a series of clues all over his body, even though he took extreme efforts to conceal his identity. Youll note hes wearing a mask. Hes wearing gloves. His arms are covered. Hes wearing long baggy pants. But hes wearing on his chest a thin blue line flag superimposed on the state of tennessee and a hat with black Rifle Coffee Company which also has operations in d. C. From those clues and a tremendous amount of scrutiny avenue what he was wearing we were able to first find him outside and find him with what appears to be his mother and then trace them back to his hotel that night. Brandy, ive seen people express some surprise at some of the profiles of the individuals being identified. We have several elected officials, we have some a number of military veterans, we have the lieutenant colonel, the second zip tie guy larry brock, i believe his name is. Ronan farrow, i think working in fact with john sort of identified him. Larry rendall brock, retired air force lieutenant colonel. As someone who has been covering the movement online, what is your reaction to what were learning about who these folks were . Of course. Its not a surprise. You know, weve seen all these people before. Even, you know, that guy from nashville, you know, we saw him at the nashville antilockdown protest. Antiblack lives matter protest wearing in fact, i think, john, if this is correct, the same outfit that he wore at those Second Amendment rights the Second Amendment rallies. So weve seen all these guys before. Theyre the militia groups, the proud boys, the boogaloo boys, the qanon extremists, white supremacists, covid deniers, antivaxxers and then you know your generally more peaceable generic sort of maga types. You know, weve seen all of these people before at the state level. They came together on this day to heed the president s call. But none of that is surprising when you talk about the military aspect, too, thats absolutely not surprising. We can look back to the spring and the summer when we saw the boogaloo arrests. People that were threatening the lives of black lives matter protesters. With planned terrorism attacks who killed Law Enforcement officers. These were exmilitary people too. We have a problem there with exmilitary people coming back and getting radicalized and joining these groups. You know i think its useful here to talk about that is the individual right there Robert Keith Packer who is wearing the camp auschwitz shirt. Which many people noted, which was quite prominent, features in a lot of that footage. He has also been identified there. Brandy, i think its sort of the useful thing about concentric circles here you keep hearing republicans talk about the insult to the 74 million americans that voted for donald trump. But thats a lot of people, a huge number of people, right . The people that come to d. C. To begin with for this event is incredibly selfselecting. I mean, its one thing if youre a trump fan and he comes to a rally in your town. To go. Right. Its another to fly across the country and get a hotel and, i mean, youre already dealing the people that are coming to the capitol, youre dealing with a selfselected group and among them an inner people that rushed the capitol, youre dealing with the hardest of the hard core there. Yeah, absolutely. Like, these are the most radical people. The most radical conservatives. The most radical extremists surrounding the pro trump ecosystem that we can really see. Now what is also concerning is that while this is going on in the capitol on the sixth, there were also State Capitol protests happening in dozens of cities throughout the country where people were listening to the events. Listening to the sacking of the capitol and cheering. Its not like we have got them all. Its not like theyre all, you know, were still looking for arrests. John and others are iding them now but these people are still generally out there and they went to fulfill this mission, especially the qanon people, they went to go execute members of congress, to see the great storm realized. And now most of them are back at home doing who knows what. Likely we hear from the doj and the fbi and we see online still that theyre not done. Part of what is so striking, john, is when you talk about eric munchel, who took pains to conceal his identity although he was with his mom and she was not concealing her identity. But a lot of the others didnt. I mean, part of whats so striking, i mean, the guy whos walking with the podium. Whose name has been identified as adam johnson. Hes been arrested and charged. I mean, you know, hes smiling like haha. Isnt this funny . I have stolen the speakers mode podium. Its amazing how many of these people didnt seem to think that it matters they were recording themselves committing serious crimes. I think whats really important to do here as were getting more footage, more information, is to understand how many different categories of people there were that day. There were people who really were ready and prepared for something. Some came as lone wolves. Some came as groups. There were people who were larping, playing dressup as military people. And there were instagram tourists who didnt have any idea what they wanted to do once they were inside the capitol. Each of those is a different set of people. Thats a great point. A different series of motivations took them there that day. And i think its very important as were trying to understand all this to make that distinction. Let me tell you one entity, though, that didnt have any instagram feed, that didnt have a twitter feed. And thats the pipe bombs. They were placed at the rnc and dnc. And for me that is really concerning because that is pretty clear evidence that there was some kind of a plan i wonder what would have happened if those bombs had exploded and the s. W. A. T. Teams at the capitol had gone to respond to that 37 where would we be right now . The final question for you, brandy, is about and thats a really good point. If those had exploded and everyone had gone there. You know, the concern about the future, brandy. It seems to me that i think the question of the social media platforms and what theyve done is a complicated one for a policy perspective and a president ial perspective. It does seem to me that there is a fear on their part about essentially being the platform for something worse and that is whats driving some of the actions right now. Do you think thats right . 100 . I mean, this is a big step for them. And so i think its a big step. And the banning of the president from social media platforms would only be taken if there was a great threat. And indeed there is. I think we saw we saw what militia groups were capable of planning, especially the Governor Whitmer plot to kidnap her and murder her. After that happened that is when after those people were arrested that is when facebook decided that militias, homegrown militias in america were dangerous organizations and would ban them. So thats what happened. Right . There was that existential that real, sorry, threat, and then the facebook action. This happened on the 6th and now we have the platforms taking real action. But its still its just not its too late, a, because all of these people have brain worms and its affected everyone and those people still believe all the things that they believe. And now theyre just moving on to smaller platforms. So what we have is okay, they cant infect the Larger Population anymore but what theyve done now is theyve been telegraphing for weeks that theyre going to be taken off these platforms and to follow me on telegram or other places that i wont even mention but to follow us there. What you have now and were watching these spaces is a concentrated group of real extremists of, you know, brain wormed people who are all talking about the next weent. Its very worrisome. Brandy zadrozny and john scott haf ralto, thank you both for taking some time explaining that tonight. I appreciate it. Still to come, the growing number of democrats calling for ted cruz and josh hawley to either resign or be expelled from the senate. What that would look like, just ahead. He senate. What that would look like, just ahead. Because my body can still make its own insulin. And trulicity activates my body to release it, lowering my blood sugar from the first dose. Onceweekly trulicity responds when my body needs it, 24 7. Trulicity is for type 2 diabetes. Its not insulin. It isnt for people with type 1 diabetes. Dont take trulicity if youre allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, changes in vision, or diabetic retinopathy. Serious side effects may include pancreatitis. Taking trulicity with sulfonylurea or insulin raises low blood sugar risk. Side effects include indigestion, fatigue, belly pain, decreased appetite, nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting which can lead to dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. I have it within me to lower my a1c. Ask your doctor about trulicity. The many disturbing videos to emerge from the trump mob siege of the u. S. Capitol is the footage of house lawmakers in protective isolation during attack after being rushed off the house floor and lisa blunt rochester tried to hand masks to at least six of her maskless republican colleagues. They all turn her down. One of them Oklahoma RepublicanMark Wayne Mullen can be heard saying im not trying to get political here. As he refuses the offer. That was wednesday. Yesterday the capitols attending physician notified lawmakers they may have been exposed to coronavirus while on lockdown and today democratic congresswoman Bonnie Watson coleman, a 75yearold cancer survivor who underwent chemotherapy three years aquo go, said she had tested positive and was experiencing mild symptoms. In a statement her office said she believes she was exposed during protective isolation in the u. S. Capitol building as a result of the insurrectionist riots. Again, all these republicans just refused to wear a mask. Everyone is in the same room together. One of their colleagues now a cancer survivor tested positive. Doesnt seem like its asking too much, just courtesy, simple courtesy, to put it on. But they didnt want to get political, i guess. Anyway, its worth noting that congresswoman Watson Coleman had already received the first dose of the Pfizer Vaccine and still tested positive. Remember, while the vaccine provides a significant level of protection especially after both doses it is not a guarantee and particularly not for one. And everything happening in the country right now is happening against that backdrop of an accelerating plague. Were now losing on average more than 3,000 americans per day to this virus. On thursday we lost more than 4,000 in one day. In fact, just this year, 2021, in 12 days more than 30,000 americans have died as a result of covid. We are now at 367,000 total fatalities in this country. By joe bidens inauguration it could be 400,000 deaths. And while the vaccine rollout is going far slower than we hoped, it presents an enormous challenge for the incoming biden administration. Just one of many challenges. Another big challenge is what to do about the elected officials. Donald trump and josh hawley, ted cruz and many others who helped bring about the trump riot. They probably arent going to resign despite widespread calls for them to do so. But there are ways to ensure certain politicians can never serve in our government again. What that might look like, next. What that might look like, next. They have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps. Com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the services of the post office plus ups only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps. Com tv and never go to the post office again. Its been striking in the wake of what happened on wednesday to watch folks like ted cruz and josh hawley who played a role, as i said at the top of the show, in working toward the same end as the rioters, right, to overturn the president ial election, to seat donald trump over the rightfully democratically elected man. Theres zero, zero sense of anything remotely resembling contrition after the mob beat a Police Officer to death. Lets take a listen to how ted cruz justified his actions. Took no responsibility. You led the charge calling for an objection pending an electoral commission. A lot of tension yesterday. Do you feel some responsibility for what happened yesterday . The job that i was elected to do is to fight for the people of texas, and what i was doing is debating on the floor of the Senate Election integrity. How we can protect the integrity of our elections. Looking at everything that happened yesterday, and with the objections, if you had it to do all over again, would you . I yes. Absolutely. I would object and urge that we should follow the law and follow the constitution. Thats a disingenuous lie as are the excuses josh hawley came up with. What they were trying to do is block the seating electors to throw it to the house where republicans could make donald trump president. They were engaged in an act of again, this is sedition. I mean, it sounds so extreme to say that word, but what else do you call it when you are actively working to get the election overturned . Like i said at the top of the show, we have dealt with sedition before. In fact, the 14th amendment explicitly deals with it because they were dealing with the aftermath of the civil war. The framers of that, the authors of the 14th amendment, include a section 3, it reads as follows. No person shall be a senator or representative in congress or elector of president and Vice President or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States or undtaken an oath as a member of congress or as an officer of the u. S. Or as a member of any state legislature, executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion the same. Or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. Congress may by a vote of 2 3 of each house remove such disability. To talk about what can be done to punish and isolate lawmakers who played a continuous role in helping to spread trumps lies and undermine the basics of american democracy im joined by Melissa Murray professor of constitutional law new york university, cohost of strict scrutiny podcast and full disclosure my wife kate shaw is also a host of that one. And paul fishman a former u. S. Attorney for new jersey. Melissa, let me start with you on this. The 14th amendment. It was interesting to me. This is a dormant part of the constitution. We dont see it activated very much. It was of course pressing on the mind of the republicans, the radical republicans who wrote it dealing with the aftermath of secession. Nancy pelosi mentioning in her letter to colleagues last night, im grateful to all members suggestions, observations and input youve been sending. Your views on the 25th amendment, 14th amendment, section 3 and impeachment are valued as we continue. So you can see there this is something that is floating around congress. Something maybe to be activated here. So as i said before, this administration really is the gift that keeps on giving for constitutional law. Lots of people are really digging in and finding these old chestnuts in the document that theyve really never had reason to look at before. But as you say, section 3 was ratified in the aftermath of the American Civil War and the threat there was that the Southern States were actively electing former members of the confederacy and trying to install them in congress in order to thwart the aims of reconstruction. And so this particular provision was included in the 14th amendment to provide the congress with a way of keeping those who had previously taken an oath to the constitution, had backed out on that oath by serving in the confederacy, from serving in the future in the United States congress or other offices. And its getting a lot of attention right now, and rightfully so because we dont have a lot of mechanisms that we can use to deal with situations such as this one. Although, theres also article 1 of the constitution which provides that the houses of congress can take make rules to expel their own members. That includes the senate as well. You know, paul, as melissa said, were constantly in the trump era dealing with constitutional edge cases. All of these, right . I mean, impeachment is fairly rare. Obviously the 25th amendment is extremely rare and has never been invoked in the way people are now contemplating it. Section 3 of the 14th amendment. It does seem like were just in a terrain that calls for a level of sanction that we dont normally use in politics but is justified here. Yeah, i think that i think thats right, chris. At the same time as a former prosecutor, i tend to think about revisiting tools that are in the criminal law that are actually available for prosecutors across the country. We dont actually see a lot of prosecutions for seditious conspiracy. I think probably six months ago or four years ago you would ask people what that meant, a lot of people who practice criminal law would have had absolutely no idea. But the truth is the federal statute for seditious conspiracy is pretty simple. It basically says that if two or more people use force to delay the execution of a law of the United States or to oppose by force the authority of the United States, theyve committed a federal crime thats punishable in a pretty severe sanction, and in a lot of ways that fits exactly what happened here. Theres no question that some number of the folks who broke into the capitol with maliciouse it, sedition, mayhem, sedition, doesnt really matter at the end of the day. What matters is the statute thats going to apply to their conduct. And its not the only one. They attacked federal Law Enforcement officers. A federal crime. Right. They killed one. A federal crime. So in some sense i leave to the house and senate, the procedures for invoking that particular clause in the amendment, but for prosecutors who are looking at this, its a its in some sense a very simple exercise. Yeah, i just want to be clear here, youre talking here about the people that broke in, not members of the United States senate who i dont believe absolutely. Nor i believe are guilty of criminal sedition conspiracy. Paul, you know, you work youre a u. S. Attorney, if im not mistaken, youve worked in Law Enforcement. The absence of briefing, ive been talking about a lot of people talking, and no official we havent seen wray, we havent seen rosen, we havent seen anyone come forward and say this is what we know, this is how many officers were injured, this is how many arrests, these are the suspects were seeking. Does that strike you as strange . So in some sense it strikes me as strange. And in some sense it doesnt. Typically, you see those sorts of briefings in situations in which theres been the investigation in one particular aspect has not concluded. When you see the Oklahoma City bombing, 9 11, when people are searching for suspects, searching for clues, theyre searching for answers. Thats clearly going on here. Dont get me wrong. I think in some sense i assume the fbi and the Justice Department are doing what they should be doing which is looking to see whether there were people who plotted this, but thats not the kind of thing they should be talking about in public. They should be doing what theyre doing which is looking for clues the same way that your guests before were talking about but also in terms of looking at peoples email and Text Messages and getting search warrants and subpoenas for that sort of information. What i would like to see in terms of public announcements, i would like to see briefings from those officials on what theyre doing to prevent violence, not only in washington, d. C. , next week when president elect biden is inaugurated but in the 50 State Capitols and elsewhere around the country where weve now seen reports of threatened violence. To get back to the sort of idea again the two tracks here, the folks who broke in and the members of congress who engaged in very different behavior but, again, towards the goal of overturning the election, melissa. Some of the things being contemplated like, you know, a second impeachment, which is definitely going to happen, have high bars for conviction. My understanding is that congress can activate that section 3 of the 14th amendment with a majority vote. Is that our understanding of how it would work . Well, its we havent really seen this for some time, but thats my understanding, too, that a majority vote would be required but then theres some question, scholars are divided as to whether the particular provision actually authorizes removing sitting senators from the chamber or whether it was purely intended as a disqualification clause right. To prevent future officeholding. Melissa murray, professor at nyu school of law. Cohost of strict scrutiny. Paul fishman, former attorney. Thank you, both, for making time tonight. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having us. That is all in on this monday night. Just a headsup, a new episode of our podcast why is this happening will post overnight tonight. I got a chance to speak with that me hooesi coates about what happened at thell on wednesday and where american democracy is at right now. You definitely want to listen to that. Right now the Rachel Maddow show begins. Did you, my friend. A lot to get to tonight. Well speak to one of the members of congress who authored the new article of impeachment against President Trump. We are expecting members of congress to be in washington tomorrow and tomorrow night for them to start taking votes on this multipronged process of trying to remove President Trump from office. In response to last weeks attack on the capitol. So, tomorrow we are expecting that there will be a vote in the house of representatives on a resolution asking Vice President mike pence to invoke the 25th amendment and vote along with a majority of the cabinet to remove President Trump from office. Vice president pence has shown no willingness or inclination to do any such thing, but the house tomorrow will go through the process of imploring him to use the 25th amendment as a last chance for an offramp before they impeach President Trump again. So, that will be tomorrow. We dont expect i think its broadly its broadly fair to say that it is not expectedt