in his possession. two sources telling cnn this -- quote, you attorneys for donald trump turned over material in mid march. in response to a federal subpoena related to a classified u.s. military document. described by the former president an tape in 2021. but were unable to find the document itself. that's that subpoena from jack smith came after the special counsel's team questioned the trump aide before a federal grand jury about the tape. in which trump expresses his frustrations with general mark milly, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. more from that reporting, quote, prosecutors sought any and all documents and materials related to mark mill lane iran including maps or invasion plans, sources say. the sources also say that prosecutors made clear to trump's attorneys after issuing the subpoena that they specifically wanted the iran document he talked about on tape. as well as any material referencing classified information. things like meeting notes, audio recordings or copy of document that may be in trump's possession. the subpoena and failure toind -- to find the document is to say that not all classified documents have been returned. late last year months after the mar-a-lago search, attorneys for donald trump found two classified documents in a storage unit in west palm beach. now the subpoena also underscores just how jack smith's team is intent on nailing down every aspect of the story around what could amount to smoking gun evidence given just how important the tape might be in any potential criminal case against trump. as "the new york times" reports, quote, during the conversation, trump signaled his awareness of his inability to declassify the document because he already left office. we begin today with our favorite reporters and friends. michael steel joins us and mike schmitt is also here, all msnbc contributors. mike, your colleagues have new reporting on the story. the lawyers with trump are unable to locator ascertain any location for this document. >> look, one of. >> we can't see fully into this investigation. we now know about this very intriguing audio file in which he's discussing this document. one of the problems with donald trump is because he makes so many things up and says so many different things. it makes investigating him difficult. and, look, we don't know what this document is or where it is. but would it be beyond donald trump to have, like, said that he had something in his hands that he didn't have in his hands? of course. donald trump said blatantly false things about very obvious things. it also speaks to the difficulty of investigating donald trump's world. if this was, you know, a regular president and they had their document that's they happen to have taken from the white house, they probably would keep them in some sort of fashion. they would be in one place. >> mike pence? >> someone who would really be in charge of it. they know they had to look at mar-a-lago. they had to look at a storage facility in florida. they had to look at bedminster to see if it was there. and in some ways, i think that probably helps trump. you're not investigating the hierarchy at the top of an institution that is well established lanes of the road and it's pretty clear who does what and knows what. but you have folks like walt matto who was a personal assistant. he was a vallet. what is a vallet? what do they do? what are their roles? who do they work with? who do they work for? >> you're colleagues have an analysis piece out that made clear that just trump being on tape and his own voice acknowledging that there is a declassification process could amount to devastating evidence on its own. >> correct. even if they're able to show exactly what the document was. now, they could run into a difficult place f they're not able to figure out where the document is. the fact that they can't find it is a hugely beneficial thing to donald trump. it's like well what is the document? what was he specifically talking about? and, look, all classified documents retention cases are very difficult. you really have to prove that these, you know, these people had these things. what does the government do when they come back and say we can't find the document? it probably means it wasn't in the boxes that were returned. where is it? >> neil, the analysis report being in the times makes clear that trump on tape acknowledging that he had items that hadn't been declassified by him or anybody else. could potentially blow a hole through all of the public defenses. that is mike saying, yeah, there are legal defenses. it seems to always boil down to this stupid and chaotic defense if the past is pro logged. but what do you make of what is known to be -- to be evidence that jack smith put before the grand jury? >> nicole, i have to say that classified documents about iran are pretty high up on the list of things that you don't want to lose at a country club. i disagree with mike and agree with bill barr. this is not a hard case to prove this prosecution. if anything, it's easier to make a case against trump than it is against others. trump is his own worst enemy when it comes to his legal troubles. he opens his mouth and all sorts of ways that implicate him even further. i don't think mike is right when he says the question here is whether or not they can find this document about iran. whether or not they find this document or not, that's not what the prosecution is going to be based on. the relevance of this whole story and this tape is not for the document itself. it's about it goes to trump's state of mind. the defense he's been articulating ever since the search on mar-a-lago is id classified this stuff in my mind. i had a standing order. i took stuff out of the white house. it was automatically declassified. here he's saying there is a document i took out on the white house. and that document is classified. therefore, i can't show it to you. that blows a hole in the defense. whether trump exerted incompetence with respect to that document or mishandled that document, that's an interesting question. prosecutors, of course, should get to the bottom of it. the real point is they found the goods. they found more than 100 classified documents and his house after they swore he didn't. and the one defense he's been articulating since the search is now contradicted by his own words. it's as if donald trump is too dumb to even play dumb which was his defense. >> he never said i don't have classified documents, you never said i kept thing is never should have kept. he doesn't deny the aspects of the conduct that are described as the crimes under investigation. that puts him in danger under the letter of the espionage act. let me play you another attempt he made and edited broadcast by fox news last night. we don't know if this was even the whole answer. here is some of the answer about this document specifically. >> the third issue is there is a special counsel that is appointed and news broke yesterday that might be a tape recording that, quote, where you acknowledged that you understood that these were classified documents. first of all, do you know who this call is with? >> i don'ts know anything about it. everything i did was right. we have the presidential records act which i abide bid 100% -- abided by 100%. biden has a lot of classified stuff he's not supposed to have in his case. i have a right to declassify as president. >> again, the misdirection. the calls with -- these are not mysterious facts. they've been all over the news for two days. the recording was for an autobiography that mark meadows was drafting. he thought for a million years that you can grab people between the legs because that's what famous people do and that's still his position today. what he is talking about in all of the taped appearances is not a denying that he took classified information and there is never a denial he obstructed the government's efforts to have the classified documents made secure again. >> that's right, nicole. and that is his entire answer lafrt night. i had to suffer through that. >> i handle these documents all the time. when someone asks you, did you ever disseminate a piece of classified information? you darn well know who you talked about classified information with and who you didn't. it's not the kind of thing you forget and not say not really or something like that. if this were any other person and they had admitted to what donald trump already admitted to, they'll be in jail. that is not a hard case. i think the trajectory of this investigation based on everything ween into how the case gets stronger and stronger with new pieces of information makes it very hard for jack smith to do anything else but to indict. if it were anyone else, there would be an indictment already. >> on the town hall, what was broadcast is not broadcast live. that's what i meant. there is some opportunity for any news organization taking somebody pretaped to make edits. we don't have any information that they edited this particular section. but we don't know what his full answer was. to kneel's point, it never really changes. he says, i had the presidential act -- the presidential records act. that isn't like a pocket pardon for mishandling classified documents. >> no, it's not. >> too doum play dumb. just such a perfect assessment of everything we've known from 2015 to the present. so, here we are. in this moment watching this recording with shawn. they're concerned about what this outcome may mean for trump and republicans. trump doesn't care about any of. that you, as he asked the question, the answer was already forming on his lips before he finished the question. he genuinely believes too dumb to recognize the truth here, he has the authority to just do whatever he wants with classified documents. and the problem is that there's nobody inside the republican political or legislative class, all right, who said to him, no, you don't. congress wrote the law. this is not something -- presidents didn't write the he is tee snaj act. they set the parameters. they put the limit on the president's ability to just wake up in the middle of the night and think, oh, you know what? i'm going to declassify that document on iran. let it's declassified and go back to sleep. that's just not how it works. there is no relevant pushback on that. what that means is when the hammer comes down on this, you're going to have a significant population of people out there who are going to think donald trump is getting screwed again. that donald trump has the authority to do what he did with those documents. and, so, we're finding ourselves having these very important legal discussions around the ramifications of these actions. but the political consequences when it comes time to how american people have digested this, because as a recovering lawyer, they digest politics better than they digest the law. they're not going to be on the same page. that's one of the problems we have here. no matter how much we try to spell it out and break it down. they're reinforcing the bs coming out of trump's mouth. sean opportunity dnt push back on that. how do we know? we didn't see it. i'm sure they didn't edit out if he did. but maybe they d that says to me there was -- wait a minute, mr. president, you're misreading the law here. you know who was on the phone call. tell us, who was on the phone call? there is the legal analysis by neil. you're still stuck in a political quagmire. a lot of people think that donald trump is getting screwed here. >> that is always something that we tried to pull that thread as taughtly as we can. i just want to ask all of you a basic question. with the government recovers are not recently declassified documents. they're 184 classified documents, 67 confidential, 92 secret, 25 top secret. even the stuff he gave back wasn't deemed declassified by him or anybody else. when he says i declassified everything i have, did he not declassify the things you have and imagine sheepishly, i guess he's not capable of that. august 8, they go in and find 103 more classified documents. they've been moving them all over like prepping for a yard sale. he didn't bother to declassify any of them. and 54 secret and top secret were among them. the other piece of this that is -- i take michael's point, it may all be lost on the public. i think the public is getting an unbelievable education. when they hear bill barr every time he is flobt of a camera plead the case for doj, for reasons that are not clear to me this is as serious as a heart attack, they're at least hearing from across the information spectrum. what was recovered was given back, neil. >> absolutely. that's where the prosecution would lie. michael steel is right. there is a whole counter narrative. but that's what we have jury trials for. and that's ultimately what i think jack smith will conclude. look, there is a debate in the popular press about whether or not donald trump did something wrong or not. we as lawyers, we as national security officials know if this were anyone else, it's an obvious easy indictment. i mean, those are hundreds of documents, nicole. i don't know if donald trump, did he leave anything left at the white house for the archives? did he take the whole thing? i don't know. but it's not one straight document or something like that. it's a whole serious of them. and then you've got the added problem that after the archives asked them and after the prosecutors asked to turn over documents, they said they turned everything over when they had not. and that's when they found so many more classified and sensitive documents. sure, trum say he declassified stuff in his mind. but that is obviously not what the documents are marked and say and declassification is an extensive process that you go through and when you have a declassified document, it's marked as such at the top and bottom of the page. none of that existed here. the whole point is to protect our sources and methods, protect information our allies have given us. some of those lives may have been lost to generate that information. it's a really serious thing to declassify a document. certainly not something that happens right when you walk out with a document even if you're the president of the united states. there is not a word in the presidential records act that says anything like what donald trump is saying. that's why the only person advising him as such is the guy who i think doesn't even have a law degree. but he is advising donald trump on this. >> mike, you're a student of the president's migration over the four years to the presidential powers that were absolute, like the pardon, or near absolute. there is something about his authority to declassify that he misses, even in the public defenses of his conduct. and that's -- unlike the pardon, there is a tale. they explained it. he could declassify things, it's not just by thinking it. there is an actual process when it is human intelligence. it goes back to the cia and gets distributed to allies. it is declassified. if it signals intelligence, he does incredibly sensitive, he wants to declassify, he's the power. no saying he didn't. but there is a process for that, too. there is no paper trail. did he actually declassify anything within the process where things end up declassified? >> they have taken on one of the defenses in this area which is if the documents went to the residence, they were declassified. they've been able to look into that to find that there was no evidence to support it. and base basically knock a leg out of that argument out. i'm not sure how strong that argument will be. they drill down to try to see if there is anything there. there was nothing that was there. they try to find out what he was told so they could establish you've been told when you came in this is how you have to handle these things. this is how this works. look, donald trump obliterated norms and in the process a lot of processes. and i think that he obviously never appreciated the fact that when he left office he was no longer president. he started to behave in ways that he didn't have. he behaved in ways he thought he had powers that he didn't have. >> do we know when -- the times and others have reported that chairman mark millie has been in to talk to jock smith as prosecutors. i don't know if it's just the prosecutors or if he's been before the grand jury. do we know when that was? was that about this tape? >> do we know when it was or what it was about? >> either. >> i'm not sure if we know either of those things. millie is if one that if you were jack smith, you would probably want to have one meeting with him. you wouldn't want to have to bring him back and forth and given the fact that he's an important witness on january 6, he certainly someone you would want to talk to for that investigation. so, did they deal with both of those matters at the same time? you know, dating back to the mueller investigation? they didn't want to have to be dragging people's significance back and forth. i certainly don't think they want to do that with the chairman and joint chiefs of staff. >> right. >> so you would think that millie talked about january 6 as well. based on what we know, millie as a witness, probably knows far more about trump's conduct on january 6 than he does about the documents. >> that's all still intriguing to us on the outside. neil, mike schmitt, thank you so much. michael steel sticks around for the hour. when we come back, governor ron desantis is campaigning all throughout new hampshire. talking about his favorite thing, so-called wokeness and defunding diversity programs. and touting his losing fight with disney. we're not sure why. but he does seem to have a reptilian political instinct that is alive to run away from the most extreme positions. why he's avoiding his own six week abortion ban. we'll show you that. plus, could prosecutors in georgia be expanding their investigation into the ex-president? new reporting on that case also coming up. later in the broadcast, two by him who stood up to and continue to stand up to the ex-president, e. jean carroll and mary trump join us together on their new project. all those stories and much, much more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. rsv could cut it short. rsv is a contagious virus that usually causes mild symptoms, but can cause more severe infections that may lead to hospitalizations, in adults 60 and older - and adults with certain underlying conditions, like copd, asthma, or congestive heart failure. talk to your doctor and visit cutshortrsv.com. as someone living with type 2 diabetes, i want to keep it real and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times 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treehouse, ♪ ♪ honestly i don't care ♪ find the perfect vacation rental for you booking.com, booking. yeah. hey, dad. i got an a on my book report. that's cool. and i went for a walk in the woods and i didn't get a single flea or tick on me. you are just the best. -right? i'm great. -you are great. oh, brother. this flea and tick season, trust america's #1 pet pharmacy. chewy. ron desantis, or if it's friday, it could be a different pronunciation. when you find yourself in a hole though this is true for all politicians in both parties. like ron desantis is right now. with all of a sliver of the whole american electorate that's available, the first thing any politician, again, many party should stop doing is to stop digging. the florida governor doesn't do that very often. in the first trip as a presidential kabd date to new hampshire this week, he completely avoided talking about his six-week abortion ban. but on his favorite topic, also highly unpopular, the whole electorate, culture wars, wars on schools and books and teachers, desantis kept on digging. you might remember last month the naacp issued a travel advisory for the state of florida. citing the governor's war on diversity, equity and inclusion. yesterday desantis responded after talking about the benefits of school choice. he insisted, quote, if you're in baltimore or chicago, these kids have a better chance of getting shot than getting a first class education. people who see book bans and rewriting of history for what both those things are, anti-democratic and anti-american policies for an entirely fabricated problem. wokeness. today the coalition grows. a group of nine governors signed on to a letter directed at our nation's largest textbook companies urging them not to give into censorship related or motivated demands. plus, an inherent rejection of the desantis agenda. a new mom's rising poll reveals that 95% of likely mom voters support teach going and bad of our hist rich. 82% say children learn best when they feel best to be themselves and 78% of moms reject all book bans. the last time you two were together, it was epic. a want to show you both something. we first reported on this easterly iier in the week. this is a very -- earlier in the week. this is a very red county in florida. 50 teachers have quit. let me show what you one of the teachers said is the reason why. >> no one is teaching your kids to be gaid. sometimes they just are gay. i have math to teach. i literally don't have time to teach your kids to be gay, even if i cared enough to. i don't. i want to teach them literacy and numbers. numerousy if you will. if you spent time in a classroom, you know it's hard enough to get their kids to put names on their papers. we don't have the power to change a part of them that has always been part of them. students don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. every single one of them. gay, straight, black, white, asian, trans and i love them all, exactly as their weird little receives are. >> i mean, i said the other day. i try to find a way to play that every day. it's just a beautiful, beautiful mission statement for the life of a teacher. >> that's who -- so, that's who teachers are. and in that county, i just have so much a because they decided with teachers from around the different counties who were there to support them that they were going to stand up this week. it was enough. and it's not simply that we're losing so many teachers in florida, but people want to teach. and just like that teacher said, give me a break. the people that are trying to indoctrinate are accusing us. the but if you think about -- and it's great that we're seeing all these new data points that show what we saw two years ago. people want teachers to have the latitude to care about their kids and learning loss and all the stuff that happened in covid. if you restrict teachers' latitude to do that, a kid is going to see that in a minute. and so what is happening in florida is that people feel like they're in a vice. like they're trapped. they want to answer kids' questions but they don't know if they're going to get fired. and the people in florida who are more mad that anyone else are the people who voted for desantis because they feel kmeetly betrayed. they bought that he said this is about freedom. this is about repression and trying to stymie not only knowledge but growth and aspiration. >> michael steel, i covered this earlier in the week. it reminds me of robin william in "dead poets society" which makes me weep just talking about him in "dead poets society." the fact that they stripped humanity out of parenting. the fact this has to be said, the fact that any teacher has to say this sentence, no one is teaching your kids to be gay. sometimes they just are gay. do you think that is actually an open question on the right? >> i think the vast majority of performtive. particularly by the politicians like desantis who are playing to fears and grievance and a bunch of other things. i can assure you, there are gay children in republican families. i don't know why they're acting like their kids -- i mean the teacher who educated, you know, your child who happens to be gay turned that kid gay, no, they didn't. that is the point this teacher is trying to make. we accept kids in the classrooms as they are. not as you want them to be or even sometimes as their parents want them to be. we get to see them in their rawness. we get to see them learn and grow and deal with stuff that most adults don't want to deal with. children are dealing with this issue better than their parents and the adults in the community. and that, i think, is what makes it so much harder for teachers. when i was lieutenant governor, i took a year to study our educational system in maryland. and when i put this effort together, i remember telling the staff, i don't want to sit down in some focus group with the teachers union and parents and all these other professionals. i want to see education the way kids see them. see it. i want to see through the eyes of a child. guess what? as lieutenant governor of maryland, i was at a school bus stop at 5:00 a.m. to make the rounds to get there by 7:30. right? and then had lunch at 10:00 a.m. and didn't have anything else to eat the rest of the day. and, so, going through that experience that kids go through and listening to their experiences from the moment they're at the school bus at 6:00 in the morning to the time they leave after -- at the end of the day, that's the focus here. and in that period, nicole, is where the teacher does her magic. and that magic is not confounding. it's not, you know, unprecedented. it is very simple and basic. she listens. she teaches. and education is not just what they find in a book. it's not just what they're being told. it's how they experience it. and so many of the idiots are ruining this experience for these kids. how are they processing that? that is what is so sickening and sad about ron desantis and his wokeness is about right now and any other political leader out there who is signing on to this crap. >> i want to ask both of you whether this is a political moment like last spring where after the supreme court overturned roe versus wade. there was a sense that was the political peak and it would recede before the elections. i remember saying, no, no, no, this will peak and peak and peak and peak every time a woman dies because she can't get health care or every time a woman's baby is not viable. and she can't make decisions with privacy and dignity. this will peak and peak and peak. i want to press both of you on whether we're at sort of the beginning of the beginning with these policies where you have, you know, famous people like dwyane wade saying i'm leaving because my family is not safe in florida. but now you got it really rippling out through the country. you have a republican party that is going to bang the drum 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check. introducing myplan. the first and only unlimited plan to give you exactly what you want, so you only pay for what you need. and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. we're back. i want to ask this questions que -- this question that i posed before the break. are you buied by the fact that most families really revere, depend on teachers and the overreach is just not connecting with the vast majority of american families? >> yes. i think what we've been seeing this year is frankly what i saw right before the november 2022 elections which is that most people were not buying it. they want their kids to be okay. and they want us to deal with learning loss and mental health. and they want people to be better. and we're not even talking about things like chat gbt and all that other stuff and mental health. so, they want us to spend the time in schools but what all of this, what desantis does is because this is the constant diatribe, the constant hatred, it makes it hard for individual teachers and for school boards principals to do the right thing. they're being very, very quiet about it as opposed to doing what we need to do have the books that kids want to read and enjoy. the sports they want to do together. everybody is on tender hooks. and that's what this dehumanization has done. it feels like you have to have courage to go to a school board meeting rather than simply saying, let's do what is right for kids. let's do what we need to do to help teachers help kids. >> you know, michael, there is something in the campaign vibe. i know yunkin was viewed as doing this successfully. there is something that everyone can relate to. and on the ground cruelty of targeting family of a trans kid or targeting a gay teacher, i mean, i would like to think that we live in a country where that is more unpopular and offensive than celebrated and popular in terms of fueling a political movement. what do you think the effect is as opposed to them being harmed by them? >> that is going to be an important tell how this plays out. i think i'm going to go out on a little bit of a limb here and kind of -- that's what i do. having spent time knee deep in education even having taught when i was in seminary in high school -- taught high school. school board meetings are not a thing until someone takes something out of context and blows it up and makes it a thing. >> exactly. >> okay? a lot of the parents that are bithching and screaming, the 11 books that he massed the ban of thousands, ask them how many school board meetings do you go to every year? the parents that are involved and attend the meetings, they know what's going on. they know what's happening in the classroom. they're not afraid of the knowledge that's being imparted to their kids. because they are on the front lines with those teachers and helping those kids process through all of that. ones that are loud mouthed don't go to teacher board meetings and they don't even go to parent-teacher night. they're exercised when someone puts out a conspiracy theory that you know that teacher is turning your kid gay. hopefully what we see now is the politician that's are clueless and weak kneed to begin with when it comes to these things, because god forbid they tell parents, no this is not what you think it is. if they -- now that they're passing the laws, nicole, what's happening is parents are beginning to see very much in the same vein as dobbs. now they're beginning to see this thing play out and going back to randy and i were talking about in the last segment. how this is impacting every child, not just the ones that are being targeted. >> correct. and every teacher. >> and every teacher. >> i want to come back to the other policy which is i think the most unpopular of all in sort of this new mom's group and the polling that's out is the book bans. >> exactly right. >> i mean, the governor and other officials are trying to sort of counter what we call -- here it is. >> two things are unpopular. the book bans and also why you would get rid of social emotional learning? when we have a mental health crisis. and we have to make sure that kids feel okay. like -- >> and the reason for doing it is thinking about guns in america is it's a mental health problem. >> and so it's just -- if it wasn't so serious, it would be laughable. but the book bans, what's happening is that parents are saying -- and michael got it right. 11 parents in florida had been responsible for 60% of the book bans. and it was only when the amanda gorman ban. and that person didn't even read it. and had elders on her facebook page. so she doesn't, like -- so the craziness here is people are starting to feel the depravation. and they're getting really angry. just like on dobbs. there's a sense you're taking something away from my child. >> it's regressive. >> because you're doing. this why are you doing this? why are you taking this away from my child? why don't you let my child and her teacher decide what is right? and the other thing i'll say is there are processes to figure out curriculum. we don't get it right all the time. but use those processes that the school boards are supposed to have. that's why we have lay boards that are voted on by parents in the main. >> go ahead. >> can i pick up on something that -- >> always. >> i don't want people to lose a point that may be too subtle for some. and that is -- >> we love you, michael. >> you know, it ain't woke to emotionally support our children. >> yes. >> all right? it ain't woke to make sure that they have a sound learning environment. it ain't woke to recognize that a kid who is going through the trials of life is going to need in addition to all the book smarts that you want to provide them and pass on to them, the emotional stability to deal with the life that they're going to have to encounter when they're not in the classroom. and a lot of times that's when they leave at 3:00 p.m., right, to go home. because the home is a hot mess. and the teacher see that's every day, too, and has to deal with that every day, too. and now you're layering on top of that things that take away that emotional support that that teacher can provide them as they're discovering their and t aren't dealing with it very well, as they're discovering and dealing with a learning disability that parents have checked out on or don't even know is there because they're not paying attention to the child and what's happening. they think it's behavioral, it's not. it's because they can't read the right way. so all of these things are what our teachers are confronting every day. and we don't want to pay them for that. we don't want to provide them the resources to deal with that. we just want to lump them into some woke bucket that says they're trying to groom their kids to be something that they're not, other than good, decent human beings. >> i want to give you the last word. what i was about to ask you is about becoming this incredibly, brutally targeted public official. mike pompeo, we talked about it, called you, quote, the most dangerous person in the world. others are relentless in attacking you. you represent teachers. what is that like? >> so -- you know, i can analyze it, and i can feel it. as most people know, i am a gay woman. i was probably the first out education official as well as the first out labor leader. and that was pretty scary. because of course all the groomer and pedophile and all that stuff was said at that time. you know, or thought. and what i do now -- and i'm also married to a rabbi. so it's the anti-semitism issue. it's the woman's issue. it's the gay issue. they check a lot of boxes when they try to due humanize me. so what i now do is say, okay, you want to smear me? be my guest. you're not going to stop me from doing the work i have to do to lift people and to have a better life for people. and the more they smear me now, the more i just kneel right into the work. >> that's incredible. >> and i just feel like -- fine, you're really that afraid? you're that afraid of the trans kid? you're that afraid of the gay person who's getting married to the guy he loves? you're that afraid of knowledge? shame on you. and part what was you did for me, just to be very, you know -- just for a moment, what you did with michael that last time, it was really affirming. and so many people told me they saw that moment. because here's michael, the republican lieutenant governor, randi, the democrat. and we are sitting there with you talking about how to fight dehumanization. >> you're going to make me cry. you've got to come up here. i think this is -- you know, we can chop it into the buckets of roe and the woke agenda. but i think at its core the strategy of dehumanization. i think we should sit here and try to solve for that, figure that out. and that was all michael steele. but thank you very much for lumping me in. randi and michael, love you both, thank you so much. so much. asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthma problems when used alone. when this medicine is used with an inhaled corticosteroid, like in trelegy, there is not a significant increased risk of these events. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase risk of thrush and infections. get emergency care for serious allergic reactions. see your doctor if your asthma does not improve or gets worse. ♪ what a wonderful world. ♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for asthma - because breathing should be beautiful. ♪ [typing] you were made to act spontaneously. we were made to help plan accordingly. ♪ (tap, tap) listen, your deodorant just has to work. i use secret aluminum free. just swipe and it lasts all day. secret helps eliminate odor, instead of just masking it. and hours later i still smell fresh. secret works. ohhh yesss. 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every single allegation we checked, ran down the rabbit trail to make sure our numbers were accurate. we followed the law, we followed the constitution, and at the end of the day, president trump came up short. >> hi again. it's 5:00 in new york. it was that simple. came up short. trump didn't win the state of georgia in the 2020 presidential election. his claims of fraud were wrong, debunked. georgia performed multiple recounts and they all arrived at the very same conclusion, trump lost. didn't have the votes to win. that, of course, didn't and doesn't matter to the now twice impeached, indicted, liable for sexual abuse and defamation, disgraced ex-president who tried to overturn his defeat in the state of georgia. who pressured, on a phone call, georgia's secretary of state to find the exact number of votes he needed to reverse his defeat there. those efforts by the ex-president have been under criminal investigation by fulton county d.a. fani willis for more than two years. according to reporting in "the washington post," there is a fresh sign that prosecutors may be building a sprawling case under georgia's racketeering laws. the "post" reports, "among willis' latest areas of scrutiny is the trump campaign's expenditure of more than $1 million on two firms to study whether electoral fraud occurred in the 2020 election, the two individuals with knowledge of the probe said." "the washington post" first reported earlier this year that the work was carried out in the final weeks of 2020 and the campaign never released the findings because, wait for it, their firm, simpatico software systems, and berkeley research, disputed many of trump's theories and could not offer any proof that he was the rightful winner of the election. in recent days, willis' office has asked both firms for information, not only about georgia, but other states as well. trump contested the 2020 election result in georgia, arizona, michigan, nevada, pennsylvania, and wisconsin. rico experts -- that's racketeering laws -- say it is unlikely willis will seek indictments for people regarding actions that happened outside the borders of the state of georgia, but the "post" does report this. quote, evidence and actions from outside the state, such as trump's statements from washington that inspired some of the rioters in parallel efforts to overturn other states' results, could be presented as additional evidence that helps establish the pattern. last month we got a glimpse into possible timing for fani willis to bring charges. "new york times" reported this, willis has taken the unusual step of announcing remote workdays for most of her staff during the first three weeks of august, asking judges in a downtown atlanta courthouse not to schedule trials for part of that time. suggesting that she is expecting a grand jury to unseal indictments during that time period. another investigation into donald trump's conduct seemingly inching closer to charges is where we begin the hour with democratic congresswoman zoe lofgren. she served on the january 6th select committee. congresswoman, a lot what was we know exists as evidence of the fake electors scheme and the plot out in the states, we know from your investigative work. and the committee did such a meticulous job of putting -- of illustrate organize showing through evidence that trump sat atop that chain of command with his lieutenant, eastman, under it, making farcical legal arguments that even eastman seems to admit were untrue. and rudy giuliani sort of captaining the statewide teams. tell me what you think his criminal exposure is on the state plots to overturn individual defeats of his. >> i'm not an expert on georgia's rico statutes, but clearly he was at the center -- he being the ex-president -- of a wide-ranging conspiracy to overturn the election. and some of those actions were connected to georgia. we've all heard his phone call with the secretary of state where he tells him to find the votes he didn't have so he could win the state. certainly he knew that the election was not fraudulent. he'd been told that by his own people in the department of justice. and i assume that they're looking at these studies that were commissioned, which i didn't know about until after the january 6th committee had concluded its work, as further evidence that he knew that there was no fraud. in fact, giuliani himself said he didn't have the evidence that there was fraud. >> the committee produced that i think in a conversation with mr. bauers of arizona. do you have any doubt in your mind that the plot to overturn the election was quite advanced in multiple states? like where mr. bauers was in arizona, as well as georgia and others? >> certainly. i mean, we laid out the evidence in our report in various states where he was pressuring members of the legislature, he was in arizona pressuring the speaker of the house, calling in legislators to meet with him from other states, trying to get them to throw out the votes in those states. so this was a multi-state, multi-pronged effort to overturn the election. it's pretty scandalous. >> let me play trump on january 2nd and this call with raffensperger. i remember listening to it as soon as it broke sunday night. it was such an extraordinary week. i think it comes out the next night, the 3rd. of course then we're walking up to the eve of the intersection election and the insurrection itself. let me just bring us all back in time to trump on january 2nd ahead of the insurrection threatening brad raffensperger. >> you know what they did, and you're not reporting it. that's the thing -- that's a criminal -- that's a criminal offense. i watched you this morning, and you said, well, there was no criminality. but i mean, all of this stuff is very dangerous stuff. when you're talking about no criminality, i think it's very dangerous for you to say that. >> what do you think he's saying there? it's dangerous. dangerous why? >> well, he was threatening the secretary of state. the secretary of state testified to our committee that he did feel that this was a threat to him. at some point he said, you could be in criminal trouble if you don't do what the ex-president wanted. so it's an effort to get the secretary of state over, you know -- to make up votes that didn't exist. and luckily, he understood that his job was to deliver the votes that were actually cast, not fake votes. >> what's interesting to me that is the conventional wisdom on the jack smith probes is still that mar-a-lago is open and shut, bill barr, you can't get between bill barr and a camera before he wants to tell you what deep doodoo trump is in at mar-a-lago. the evidence created and the transcripts that came out at the select committee's conclusion, there's such specificity about the state efforts and so many people involved. massive conspiracy, slates of fake electors. these people weren't careful criminals. they put all their conspiracies in writing and they left them on voicemails. where do you hope that investigation is by jack smith? >> well, i don't know where it is. certainly we delivered all the evidence that we had, which was substantial, of the various efforts that i think it was. a wide-ranging conspiracy to overturn the election. i'm sure that the special counsel is looking at all the evidence, and you know, doesn't want to bring charges unless he feels a high level of confidence that he can prove to a jury this criminal conduct beyond a reasonable doubt. you know, it's been a long time. i understand he has to be careful, but i think the sooner he reaches a conclusion, either to indict or if he thinks he can't, not to indict, the country would be better off. we need a conclusion on this. >> let me play one more piece of sound from the select committee's investigative work about john eastman. because there's -- his conduct was so brazen and seemingly in rooms full of many people and on emails with many people. then i want to bring -- let me play this first. >> we had an extended discussion, an hour and a half to two hours on january 5th. and when i pressed him on the point, i said, "john, if the vice president did what you were asking him to do, we would lose 9-0 in the supreme court, wouldn't we?" and he initially started, "well, i think maybe you would lose only 7-2." after some further discussion acknowledged, "well, yeah, you're right, we would lose 9-0." >> congresswoman, my question for you is, when you see news that msnbc is reporting that the georgia grand jury recommended indictments for over a dozen people in the trump probe, you take -- remind our viewers that it was a federal judge out in california looking at i think some documents requests from the committee, who said it was more likely than not that eastman and trump committed felonies. that was a quote, committed felonies. would you be surprised if eastman was not one of the individuals indicted by fani willis? >> well, i don't know what she's doing, but certainly judge carter found that the two of them more likely than not committed crimes. eastman knew that the position he was espousing was not lawful. and your quote there, the little clip where he would lose 9-0, he knew that. he was trying to foist off on the ex-president a scheme that was not lawful to overturn the election. i don't think that's a lawful action, honestly. so we'll see. >> i want to bring into our conversation "new york times" reporter and msnbc contributor katie benner. she's covered this prong of the georgia conduct since before the select committee existed, since the senate judiciary committee was looking into some of the doj-specific functions. also forming acting assistant attorney general for national security and msnbc legal analyst mary mccord is here as well. katie, before there was a select committee doing all their incredible investigative work, wasn't it the senate judiciary committee that was first interviewing some of the ex-doj officials and some of the evidence they developed early on was about rosen and donahue standing up to and confronting jeffrey clark, who among other things wanted to meddle in the georgia results after bill barr and others had told trump it was the b-word, b.s.? >> yes, absolutely. and one of the interesting things about the work that the committee did in the senate is that they pressed rosen, they pressed donahue, then the acting numbers one and two at the justice department at the end of the trump administration, whether or not they felt donald trump had committed a crime. they said in their meetings with him, he actually did take their advice eventually, which was when they advised him to do the legal and right thing, including not installing jeffrey clark at the top of the justice department. but they also said again and again that they weren't really sure what clark was up to. they felt i it very disconcerting that he has so much access to real information and accurate information about the fact that the election was not stolen but that he was still conspiring and working with others in the white house and around the white house to try to do something they knew was not only untrue, but potentially unlawful. so it was really early indication that there was going to be legal problems down the road for jeffrey clark. fast forward, jeffrey clark right now in washington, d.c., there's a fight over whether or not he's going to lose his bar license. and some of his own filings, he's wanted to delay those hearings, saying, i'm under criminal investigation in these other matters, which is why i think we should delay deciding whether or not my licenses is revoked. he says he believes he's going to win, we need to say that too. but now he's conceded in other public forums that he is certainly in legal hot water. >> mary mccord, mark meadows goes down to georgia, jeffrey clark is internally obsessed with georgia, rudy giuliani is actually being sued for defamation in a case that's making its way through the federal courts for peddling a conspiracy theory for which there was never any evidence and likening them to drug dealers based on congresswoman lofgren's investigative work, sharing a ginger mint, that's what they were passing, not a zip drive. how do you evaluate the criminal exposure in georgia by fani willis for those individuals? >> well, with the caveat that i'm not an expert on georgia criminal law, there are so many facets of this. if we take what you indicated in terms of different players in this conspiracy, we've got pressure on brad reffens berger to find the 11,870 votes. we've got pressure on the state legislature to essentially overrule the will of the voters in georgia and send up a different slate of electors. pressure on the electors themselves, the trump laenlgt aelectors, to go ahead and meet fraudulently, to cast their electoral votes and send those votes to vice president pence. don't forget also, there's allegations of potential tampering with some of the voting apparatus and election equipment in a few counties in georgia. so there's a lot of exposure here, and it's all about which people can be connected through the evidence to these various pieces of the conspiracy? i think that's why we're hearing now about the potential use of racketeering charges and expanding into other states. it's not because fani willis is going to indict a crime that occurred in another state, but if she wants to bring racketeering charges, she's going to want to show a pattern. and she can show a pattern in georgia alone, but if she shows a pattern across a number of states, as representative lofgren was talking about, as katie was talking about, that's a really powerful case. and it shows there's no mistake here, there's no accident. this was vast. and pieces are in georgia but it's part of something a lot bigger. >> of course, trump, he couldn't have stayed in power in georgia. of course the plan was rolled out in multiple other states. as the congresswoman's work on the committee showed, steve bauers testified to rudy giuliani saying, oh, we don't have any evidence yet. still, the lies destroyed the lives of many trump republican support hoarse refused to manufacture evidence of fraud that doesn't exist. how powerful is evidence that it was the trump campaign that developed evidence before the select committee even existed, that fraud didn't exist? >> i think what's so important about that is, again, we're getting to the intent. because so many of these different aspects, the criminal liability will result -- will come from the intent of the actors. and i think all along, trump's been trying to create his own -- you and i have talked about this -- create his own defense of, i truly believed it, i truly believed there was fraud, therefore, i couldn't have done anything corrupt, i couldn't have made a false statement, i couldn't have urged others to make false statements, because i truly believed there was fraud. the more and more the government can amass objective evidence that he was told over and over again, not just by his own attorney general, not just by his adversaries, but also by companies he hired, his campaign hired, to doing deep-dive study, come up with fraud. those companies knew they were being paid, hoping they were going to deliver evidence of fraud. even those companies didn't deliver that evidence. that just gets to be the point where it would not be credible to a jury to actually believe that trump honestly, truly believed that he was a victim of fraud. note also, in some of that evidence that was considered by the judge in california who found that there was a likelihood of crimes that were committed by john eastman and mr. trump, there was some of that evidence that suggested trump himself admitted at various points that he knew there was not fraud sufficient to change the results. >> and katie, the evidence that you pointed to, the doj officials who took over for barr, absent clark, will say that he ultimately fell into line. a former national security official told me that's because he knew he lost. he ultimately did what they told him to, do whether at the pentagon or doj, because he knew he was leaving and wouldn't have the protections of the presidency? >> well, also these witnesses, they're lawyers, they're very careful. they would say "we," "in our conversations," "in the end, in our conversations he did what we told him to do." they're careful to say they were not sure what he was doing outside those conversations. it's really outside of those conversations where you see jack smith's investigation and other investigations going, including fani willis' investigations. i wanted to point out, testimony we saw, reporting we shared with the public even before some of these hearings, john eastman, when he came to jeff rosen, he said, i want to try to insert the justice department into important state results. georgia was presented as almost a test case. it was a letter that was going to be written to georgia from the justice department saying -- untruthfully saying, we think there's evidence of fraud in georgia, so we're going to need to suspend your results. you can't say that joe biden won the election in the state. that was presented as a template. and that there was an intent to disseminate similar letters in other states. so that, again, when you look at what fani willis is doing, if she wants to show there was a broad conspiracy and that her state was just a piece of it, that is the sort of evidence she would want to gather. >> such an important thing to remember. georgia was not the full coup. it was just a piece of it. there were not enough electoral votes in georgia to have successfully overturned a democratic election result. the committee was unsubtle in its repetition of everyone from the campaign manager to the campaign spokesperson to the campaign's data guy. that's actually the order it goes on election night when you work for someone who lost a campaign for president, i've been there. you bring in the campaign manager, you bring in the data guy, tell them why they came up short, bring in the communications guy. that is exactly what happens on a losing campaign. every single one of them told him, you lost. bring in all the lawyers. bill barr told him it was b.s. there was fraud. rudy giuliani tells rusty bauers, we don't have any evidence, yet. there is no evidence to the contrary that he was ever presented with evidence that his claims of fraud were true. >> he had no evidence, plus they had over 60 court cases, all of which they lost. so he knew he lost. and he was still trying to overturn it, hold on to power, essentially a coup. >> that will be the last word today. three of the best of the best to have this conversation with. thank you so much for starting us off. when we come back, predicated on the big lie, there are new voter suppression laws in one of the biggest states in the country where republicans are singling out a huge democratic strong hold in that state in an effort to make it harder for voters to cast their ballots there, near impossible for democrats to win in the state. top democratic voting rights attorney rick elias will be our guest to explain what can be done to fight back. the twice-impeached, indicted, civilly liable for sexual abuse and defamation ex-president is running a campaign that is actually darker than that, much darker and angrier than anything this nation has ever seen. later in the hour, two women with the unique perspective on this campaign of retribution will join us. e. jean carroll and mary trump will join us. 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republicans in texas have been busy. this week they passed more election suppression bills, falsely advertised as election reform. including one that further singles out democratic strong hold harris county with its own new election policies. it's a county that is more populous than 26 states. it is home to houston and a majority of its residents are people of color. it comes just days after they passed another bill that would give power over harris county elections to the county clerk and county assessor. this new bill would give texas' secretary of state, a republican appointed by the republican governor, the power to remove them and gain sole control over the county's future elections. what could go wrong? what "the washington post," local officials said it would be unjust to allow the secretary of state the power to take action against two black women, not those who hold equivalent positions in the state's 253 other counties. under the bill, secretary of state jane nelson could oversee elections in harris county if she found good cause to believe that a recurring pattern of problems with election administration or voter registration existed in the county. joining our coverage, the founder of democracy docket and partner at the elias law group, marc elias. let me read one more piece from the "post" story. the texas constitution, like those in many states, bars the legislature from passing laws that only apply to specific jurisdictions. the legislation does not mention harris county by name. she had, one bill is written to apply to counties of more than 3.5 million. the other to counties of more than 4 million. harris county is the only county that meets those thresholds. they violate their own constitution, all in the effort of what? voter suppression? >> yeah, voter suppression and election subversion. you said something in the last segment that i just really think everyone needs to hear. because i was in the room when hillary clinton conceded. i was that lawyer at the end of that process you described just before. i was on the phone with john kerry the early morning in 2004 when he made a decision to concede. and when you see what happened in 2020 and all of the bad actions that are now under criminal investigation, and you see the 65 lawsuits that were filed -- my team and i defeated 64 of them -- by donald trump and his allies after the election, including one by texas to disenfranchise three other states -- you can jump forward to what you just asked about in texas. and there's a through line. because what texas wants now is to be able to say, if it doesn't like the election results in harris county, which is houston, the largest county, and a democratic county, it will just set those aside. and that isn't what you described what happens. that isn't how we settle democratic elections in this country. this is the escape valve so that next time they don't have to rely on dunces like john eastman. and it's really scary. >> but how is it passing -- i mean, and i know you're playing legal whac-a-mole. how does it even go into effect? how is it lawful? how is it constitutional to single out one county? you are really designing the electorate in these republican super majority states. >> yeah, it's an extension of what we see with partisan gerrymandering is now just the equivalent of partisan rigging of election results. and so you do that by gerrymandering, you can do that by election rules, you can do it through election subversion. the answer to you question is, it's not legal, it's not constitutional. but as you say, we play whac-a-mole. just earlier today, the arizona supreme court denied the last-ditch appeal of the arizona republican party to try to throw out mail-in voting in connection with the 2022 election. so great, we defeated that. i represented the democratic party in that. but it is whac-a-mole because there's a lack of a commitment to the legitimate transfer of power that we all have bought into up until very recently. and so we're left with legislatures that pass laws that are clearly unconstitutional, but the burden then falls upon voters or lawyers like -- to go and fight these in court so that we can continue to have a functioning democracy. >> but the election fraud movement is like the flat earthers, right? i remember republicans calling me after 2020 and said -- we started having these conversations right after the 2020 election. "you're so mean about the election integrity laws." and i said, "because there's no fraud." after the 2000 -- this is how old i am. jimmy carter and james bake wear on a commission to look at fraud, and they found there wasn't any. there's no voter fraud. and when there is, there are laws on the books in every jurisdiction, every state, every locality to prosecute election fraud when it happens. this person is saying, what could you live with? i said, i couldn't live with any of it because it doesn't exist, you're solving for a problem that doesn't exist. now there are 500 voter suppression laws passed or making their way through 48 states. is it possible that the opposition is too incremental and defensive? how do you go on offense against 500 voter suppression laws zooming through legislatures predicated on a lie? >> i think you ask the really big question. in some ways -- i've talked about before that what i'm trying to do is prevent the worst of the worst from taking place. as you say, playing whac-a-mole. we're not going to survive as a democracy if that's our only strategy. we need to be playing offense in the fight to protect free and fair elections, not just from the process of registering to vote, but things like we've seen in texas and elsewhere, in literally undermining elections. republicans have this catch phrase. it's like fair and balanced of fox news, which gives away the lie. they say they want to like it easier to vote and harder to cheat. what they're doing in texas is not making it easier to vote. and it's not making it harder to cheat. there is no one who thinks it makes it harder to cheat to divide the election responsibilities in the largest county in the state, one of the largest in the country, between the tax office and the election job. you want a full-time, professional, nonpartisan election official. that doesn't make it -- they're not making the voting better. no one thinks by letting greg abbott's secretary of state take over election results in harris county, you're making it easier to vote or harder to cheat. you're making it easier to cheat when greg abbott doesn't like the election results. so we all need to be calling it out every day, which is what you do so incredibly well. we also need to be activaing ourselves to be pro-democracy voters. we need to be pro-democracy voters, at the top of everyone's agenda. >> we should figure out how we have that conversation as a country or as a show. we're going to drag you up here and maybe some other smart folks like cornell belcher and matt dowd. because it feels like organically, that started to happen in 2022. but we had a little bit around the failed push for federal voting rights legislation. but i don't know that there's anything more important ahead of another presidential election where the most secure forms of voting have been eliminated. drop boxes, they're the most secure that exist behave all the signature requirements and republicans have been to war against drop boxes. it's nonsensical. like "seinfeld" opposite world. >> it's not going to get better without work. >> yeah. to be continued. thank you very much for joining us, marc elias. when we come back, e. jean carroll and mary trump will be our guests. i could stop right there, but they're going to shine a light on what has so far been an extraordinarily dark, dark, dark campaign for the american presidency by the twice-impeached, indicted, criminally -- civilly liable for sexual abuse, disgraced ex-president. as well as a really fun and really cool brand-new collaboration that they want to tell you about. is sadie. she's. the network she can count on. and now she's got myplan. the game changing new plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants, and save on every perk. sadie's getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone 14 pro! cute couple. trips don't last forever. neither does summer love. so, sadie's moving on. apple music? check. introducing myplan. the first and only unlimited plan to give you exactly what you want, so you only pay for what you need. and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. (smelling) ew. gotta get rid of this. ♪tell me why♪ because it stinks. ♪have you tried downy rinse and refresh♪ it helps remove odors 3x better than detergent alone. it worked guys! ♪yeahhhh♪ downy rinse and refresh. what are folks 60 and older up to these days? getting inspired! volunteering! playing pickleba...! mary trump is the best expert yuck get on donald trump as a relative could tear down the false image that trump has created. mary trump has the receipts provided the basis for the epic pulitzer prize-winning expose of the trump's financial fraud schemes and tax evasion schemes over the years. >> donald trump will be forced to give under oath testimony in other civil cases, including the cases brought by e. jean carroll and the case brought by donald trump's niece, mary trump. >> for the if there is time since he was elected president, e. jean carroll and her lawyer, robbie kaplan, have prove anyone a court of law that trump cannot tell lies with impunity. they have done that for the country. >> which makes them most likely the two women on the planet the ex-president may be most afraid of. his niece, mary trump, and e. jean carroll. they've joined forces for battling darkness in the form of one ex-president. it's a romance novel, go figure, cowritten with jennifer todd that explores the life of an american woman reinventing herself, as we would all like to do, in italy, as we all would like to do. it is a welcome escape, perhaps a much-needed one, as trump gears up for his third presidential run which somehow seems to bed even darker than the two that came before us. joining us, a pleasure to welcome e. jean carroll and mary trump. the novel is "the italian lesson." it's coming out on your substack. tell me first how this story came to be, and then we'll explain to our viewers some of your limitations on talking about what makes both of you major newsmakers. mary, you first. >> well, nicole, first of all, it's great to see you. it's been a while. and this is quite an unexpected development. but we actually all met via twitter dms after my first book came out in july 2020. and for some reason, maybe because the times were so dark, somebody said half jokingly, "let's bring a screenplay for a hallmark movie." i've never seen a hallmark movie, but i thought, why not? nothing came of it, though. and i think the idea was for us to have an excuse to meet, even though we're all incredibly busy. so a few months ago, i had writers block. and i thought, you know what? instead of a movie, let's write a romance novel even though i've never read one of those either. and here we are. >> e. jean carroll, you are someone that we've come to know not because we've had a ton of chances to talk to you, but because of your legal efforts. i know and we all know from roberta kaplan that there are limits on what you can talk about because of the ongoing nature of those, so we won't put you on the spot. thank you for joining us. tell us about your role in this hallmark movie that wasn't an expertise, romance novel that wasn't a passion, but this collaborative, creative effort. >> well, nicole, i'm thrilled to be here. as you can hear, my dogs are even more thrilled. >> we love dogs. >> and i'm happy to look at mary. i had to put on my glasses to see if i cass seeing her right. we're always on the phone and i rarely get to see her. we're always yakking on the phone and texting. hi, mary. we're literally on the phone five, ten times a day. yeah, so i'm really happy to be here. >> tell me about the story. e. jean, you go first. >> oh, well -- the story is delicious. and it's unexpected. because mary does not know how to write a romance novel. she is deeply romantic herself. and she's created this wonderful character. and it's a very strange romance novel. because mary trump is the one who is writing it. and her park -- actually, nicole, i was thinking as i was putting on makeup for today, i was thinking, it would be interesting if we had a clinical psychologist look at this romance novel. i think she could discover a lot about the author. then i remembered, wait, mary is a doctorate -- has a doctorate in clinical psychology. but i am telling you, the story, it sends me into captures as a romance novel should. and i can't wait to turn the pages. and i'm going to give you a hint right now. mary is devious. and some of the plot is making you look in one direction when mary is pulling a fast one going in this direction. so i'm warning you, it is a great ride. >> mary, how much of this was to bury your mind and your spirit, maybe more importantly, in something other than your uncle, donald trump? >> it's a huge motivation, nicole. and honestly, the greatest motivation is the friendships that this group formed during the height of the covid -- the second or third covid lockdown. and this happened in the context of the time when we were all isolated, but there was this very purposeful attempt to divide us even further. and these friendships became a lifeline. and that the idea of being creative with these people and having an excuse to talk to them on the phone five or ten times a day was the reason i did it. i would not be writing a romance novel by myself. i've been writing fiction for a long time, but again, i've never read a romance novel. i was motivated by the idea of the collaborative process. and it's exceeded my expectations. and we're also -- we call it an experiment in friendship and in romance novels because i don't know the convention, so apparently, according to e. jean, i'm breaking all of them. and we're also serializing it. so we can't really tell you too much about the story because we're only releasing a little bit of it at a time. in the hopes of people having a chance to see if they're hooked, if they want us to keep going. and we're just really excited about it. because again, the backstory of backstory serial is how we came together and what we've made together. >> i mean, i think there's something so universal in the connections. i mean, i have wondered, as you have both been bludgeoned by donald trump reputationally, personally, on his various tools of amplification, twitter, now whatever it is, truth social -- such an ironic name -- what the networks are. i think you just told that story to all of us, that there are not very many people who can understand what it's like to be attacked -- i remember where i was standing when he called me a dog on twitter. there's this thing that's impossible to describe. it's always -- dog is usually what he calls me. there's something that no one can understand and no one's been attacked by him like the two of you. e. jean, can you just speak to what this connection, what these friendships have meant to you over the last few years? >> well, they simply meant everything. everything. my friends keep me strong. mary makes me laugh. and mary, one time i was talking to mary on the phone on my way home, and guess what, nicole? i ended up in bear mountain state park, 70 miles away from my house, because i couldn't -- we were so excited, plotting this book and going 65 -- you know, so this is -- well, friendship makes life worth living, right and writing this book is such a treat. and it's -- it just makes my heart sing. >> so, so happy to hear that your heart is singing. because you are experts in what the country is still contending with, i'm going to ask both of you to stick around. i want to ask you what we should be girding for what friendships we should shore up to survive it on the other side of a break. 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liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪♪ whenever heartburn strikes, get fast relief with tums. its time to love food back. ♪tum, tum tum tum, tums♪ we are happy to be back with e. jean carroll and mary trump. the book has darkness and light. a lot of what he would know about donald trump's darkness, we know from your books and the opportunities to interview you. i don't know the adjective to use. there's something so extremely deviant about this new run for the presidency. make america great again ways throwback. it was racist. it was a dog whistle. but i am your retribution is like a hollywood monster mash. what should the country be prepared for as he prepares to run a third time? >> you know, when i was thinking about being on the show today, i kept thinking -- we continue to remain mired in this loop where i think a significant minority of people and the entirety of the republican party either think something is going to shift or that they are somehow going to escape unscathed. neither of those things are true. the darkness has always been there. the more he gets away with, the darker it gets, the more he issen -- is enabled, the darker it gets. i don't know that he is being held to account. one hand, that increases his street cred for some followers. on the other hand, regardless, he will be, unless something happens, the republican nominee for president of the united states in 2024. >> what do you think he means when he says, i am your retribution? >> he means he is his retribution. as has been well established and as you well know, he doesn't care about anybody else. this is all his grievance, his pain, his need to fight back with all of the cards there his back pocket, by the way, with all of the help he needs. it is his desire to undo whatever damage he believes has been done to him. this is a person -- it's shocking to me in some ways that we need to have this conversation. but we do. i was saying this in 2020. there's no bottom. there's nothing he won't stoop to. there's nothing he won't reach for. if it means bringing everybody down with him, if he thinks he is going down, that's what's going to happen. >> the only person to lay a glove on him in the legal arena is you. again, i know from your attorney, there's nothing you can talk about in that arena. i wonder what you have heard from other victims of sexual abuse or defamation that fuels you to sort of continue to reach and work toward the light and these creative projects and whether there's any full circle experience in hearing from other victims of sexual abuse who watched your trial and watched how it was covered and watched how it ended. >> you would be amazed. not only me but robby kaplan, my brilliant attorney. we have received an avalanche of letters from across the country. robby and i are right now talking about creating a new platform and making it possible for women to come forward. the very act of women coming forward brings power to other women. it's the very act of speaking up. robby and i are in serious talks about giving women a platform and giving them legal help. i can't go into it. there is help on the way. by some of the smartest minds in america. it's going to be brilliant. it is stunning when you see women speaking up, how much power it gives to other women. just because i spoke up this little bit. now hundreds of women are writing to us and saying, what can they do and how can they speak up? we have seen the repercussions already. the women in california sued cosby. this is an upper. we are rising up. the voices, the stories are breathtaking. they are just breathtaking. women across the country are gathering courage. i have to say, watch out. >> i think it's amazing. i think to the people who don't want to see us empowered, as it their greatest fear. you have become a magnet for all this. you are now platforming it. i hope you come here and think of us as a media partner with whatever you have up your sleeve. for today, that project is a novel called "the italian lesson." read it over the next year as installments drop. what a privilege and treat. thank you for having this conversation with us. a quick break for us. a quick break for us the game changing new plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants, and save on every perk. sadie's getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone 14 pro! cute couple. trips don't last forever. neither does summer love. so, sadie's moving on. apple music? check. introducing myplan. the first and only unlimited plan to give you exactly what you want, so you only pay for what you need. and get iphone 14 pro on us when you switch. it's your verizon. ♪ you got a minute? how about all weekend? let's go. ahora! i'm a miami hotel. i'm looking for someone who loves art deco elegance, good times, and unexpected flavors. someone who likes it hot but knows how to keep their cool. a white-sand beach where you can see the sunrise? way better than whatever you were going to binge-watch this weekend. and you could be here in half the time. find me at hotels.com living with metastatic breast cancer means i cherish my memories. but i don't just look back on them, i look forward to the chance to make new ones every day with verzenio. verzenio is proven to help you live significantly longer when taken with fulvestrant. verzenio + fulvestrant is for hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer that has progressed after hormone therapy. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at the first sign, call your doctor, start an antidiarrheal, and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor about any fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to death. life-threatening lung inflammation can occur. tell your doctor about any new or worsening trouble breathing, cough, or chest pain. serious liver problems can happen. symptoms include fatigue, appetite loss, stomach pain, and bleeding or bruising. blood clots that can lead to death have occurred. tell your doctor if you have pain or swelling in your arms or legs, shortness of breath, chest pain and rapid breathing or heart rate or if you are nursing, pregnant, or plan to be. i'm making future memories every day with verzenio. ask your doctor about everyday verzenio. hi, i'm jason and i've lost 202 pounds on golo. being a veteran, the transition from the military into civilian ask your doctor life causes a lot of stress. i ate a lot for stress. golo and release has helped me with managing that stress and allowing me to focus on losing weight. for anyone struggling with weight and stress-related weight gain, i recommend golo to you. this is a real thing. this is not a hoax. you follow the plan, you'll lose weight. thank you so much for letting us into your home for another week of shows. "the beat" starts right now. happy friday. >> thanks. welcome to "the beat." we have a lot going for you tonight, including a lead-up to a big address, the legal threats pummeling donald trump, the new details on this tape, some call it a smoking tape and a road to trump's first federal indictment. we have reports about trump's legal team, including a lawyer you may have heard about who just departed and who worked on this classified documents case, which seems to be heating up, and january 6. that lawyer joins me live tonight. we make time for these kind of interviews to hear from a

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