Blockbursts reporting that solves the mystery of The Missing Link in a story that has rocked American Politics and media. For weeks now, a question has loomed over the ouster of top fox host Tucker Carlson. Why did the Murdochs Fire One of their biggest stars . The architect of a platform that unselfconsciously peddles Conspiracy Theories. Why did they fire him based on something that didnt happen on air . What was that missing link . And what if anything did Tucker Carlson do or say off camera that contributed to the nearly unprecedented 11th hour settlement of 787. 5 million in the Defamation Case brought against fox by dominion voting systems. The New York Times answers both those questions and reports on the missing text message that it found in some groundbreaking new reporting. The message was reportedly unearthed during the Discovery Process with dominion. Heres how the times reports that out. Quote, in the message sent to one of his producers in the hours after violent Trump Supporters stormed the u. S. Capitol on january 6th, 2021, mr. Carlson described how he had recently watched a video of a group of men, Trump Supporters, he said, violently attack, quote, An Antifa Kid. It was, quote, three against one, he wrote. And then he expressed a sense of dismay that the attackers like him were white. Jumping a guy like that is dishonorable obviously, he wrote. Quote, its not how white men fight, he said. But he said he found himself for a moment wanting the group to kill the person he had destroyed as the antifa kid. Heres that part. Quote, i found myself rooting for the mob against the man, hoping they would hit him harder, kill him. I really wanted them to hurt the kid. I could taste it, he wrote. Quote, then somewhere deep in my brain an alarm went off. This isnt good for me. Im becoming something i dont want to be. After all, he wrote, quote, somebody probably loves this kid and would be crushed if he was killed. It was the single thing, the single text message that gave Fox Executives something they couldnt look away from, right, an undeniable glimpse into a deeply depraved human being who was now their biggest star. It may have ultimately been this nail in the coffin for carlsons career at fox. Times reports this, quote, the day after the discovery, the board told Fox Executives it was bringing in an outside law firm to conduct an investigation into mr. Carlsons conduct. The text message added to a growing number of internal issues involving mr. Carlson that led the companys leadership to conclude he was more of a problem than an asset and had to go. Carlson did not comment on the reporting by the New York Times, concerned that the message would be revealed in a trial with dominion with carlson on the Witness Stand, was a factor in foxs decision to settle with the voting machine company. The text message that led to the downfall of fox news host Tucker Carlson is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends including two of the reporters bilined. New york times reporter jeremy peters, and New York Times washington correspondent mike schmidt is here. Were joined by my colleagues, msnbc host and legal analyst katy fang and msnbc host mety hasan. Let me start with you, jeremy. Take me through what you and your colleagues have reported. Well, we knew there had to be a big reason for Tucker Carlsons firing. Fox doesnt just suddenly decide to jettison their most popular Primetime Host without a good reason. Every time they have fired someone so abruptly, think bill oreilly, roger ailes, theres been a big smoking gun. And what we tried to pursue theyve come at the end of an investigation. This seems to come at the beginning of one, right . Exactly. And on the eve of this trial, so you knew like if theyre paying 787. 5 million and firing their biggest host in primetime, something isnt quite adding up. Theres more to this story. And so what mike and i set out to do over the last week with Jim Rutenburg is what was that. And it didnt make sense to us that there was hr complaints, abby grossburg lawsuit, the toxic workplace. Tucker had been a constant management headache. We knew all of this, but there had to have been something really, really big that went on Behind The Scenes that we just didnt know about. And here it is. This is it. As someone who knows the fox culture, i mean, it is now answerable you know, wheres the red line. It is this depraved indifference to violence. Uhhuh. Well, i mean, look, this is like he is voicing homicidal rage. Lets not and enthusiasm. And enthusiasm for that. Its really striking. And you know, ive seen some commentary here and there that like, oh, we always knew Tucker Carlson was racist, this isnt surprising. Anyone whos watched his show should know hes said stuff like this. No, this is different. This is an explicit acknowledgment of racial superiority. His belief that white people are somehow better and less inclined to behave in a bad and dishonorable manner. Hes said a lot of stuff on his show in coded language that echoes the White Nationalist philosophy. Hes never said anything this explicitly racist. There is the the stop and think for a second piece. I read the text message when i read the story, when it was first alerted, and i went back and read it again. Mike, its hard to get through. I mean, take Tucker Carlson and fox news out of the story, and this is a sick person Speaking Joyfully and enthusiastically about a desire for people to beat up another person until he dies. Tell me about how this landed with the board and how keeping an examination of Tucker Carlson on the Witness Stand factored into both the settlement and his firing. So the Text Message Set off to, you know, many different important things inside of fox. One of them was that the board, as you were saying, told fox that they were basically going to investigate this not basically, they were going to investigate this, they were going to bring out the outside law firm. That created the prospect that as this trial was heading forward and Tucker Carlson could be called to the stand and might even be asked about this text message if it became unredacted, that there would be an Ongoing Investigation being done by the board into whether their top star was a racist and what the circumstances were behind that. And that put the company in a highly unusual and difficult position where they had to realize there could be an Ongoing Investigation into carlson. The second thing that the text message did was it raised the issue of what could happen at the trial in a new and different light. And by that, what im saying is that Tucker Carlson was to be called as a witness. And if dominion moved to have the message unredacted and was able to use it, you would have had this incredibly dramatic and damning moment at the trial where a Dominion Lawyer was asking Tucker Carlson to explain this text message. And that was look, fox had taken on an enormous amount of bad press and publicity around this. I think it was starting to wear more and more on the company. And this would have been even you know, this would have been even worse in that area. On top of that, there are all these other suits that have been brought against fox in which there will be discovery, and this text message could come out. So the company, top executives did not know about it until the day before the trial started, nor did the board, and they were finding out about this, and it all comes at this time that theyre trying to settle the lawsuit. And it lead to this decision to settle it for this extraordinary amount of money. I mean, mike, tuckers coverage of Kyle Rittenhouse is probably his onair performances that come the closest to rooting for what he articulates in the text. But i im going to read it one more time. I want to ask you to expand on what in your reporting crosses the line in this for fox news. Let me read it one more time. Tucker carlson writes this, on january 7th, couple weeks ago i was watching video of people fighting on the street in washington. A couple of trump guys surrounded An Antifa Kid and started pounding the living shit out of him. It was three against one at at least. Jumpation guy like that is dishonorable obviously, it is not how white men fight. Suddenly i found myself rooting for the mob against the man, hoping they would hit him harder, kill him. Ireland wanted them to i really wanted them to hurt the kid. I could taste it. An alarm went off, this isnt good, im becoming something i dont want to be. The antifa creep is a human being as much as i despise what he says and does, much as id hate him personally in i knew him. I shouldnt gloat over his suffering. I should be bothered by it. I should remember that somewhere somebody loves this kid and would be crushed if he was killed. If i dont care about those things, if i reduce people to their politics, how am i better than he is . Tell me how reading that in your understanding gave them a piece of information about Tucker Carlson they didnt have from this program. Well, so im not exactly sure about look, how much this like im not exactly sure how much of that is like differentiating between what the board thought about what he said publicly in that, im not exactly sure. What i do know is that the idea that this could become public was flight frightening for the company because you were going to have a jury at a trial that was going to be able to decide a dollar figure. And they fox had underestimated the way that the public was going to react to the initial messages that came out in february. And this was going to make it all the worse with the jury if they saw this message and it could increase. I look at it, and its been described this way, what fox did with Tucker Carlson, as a Business Decision. They made a Business Decision to get rid of him. I realize that may not be very satisfying to people that have long thought, you know, that Tucker Carlson was a racist. But i i really think this comes down to business more than anything. Meti hasan, you have put together the definitive compilation. Youve watched hours and hours of Tucker Carlson so that none of the rest of us have to. Let me play what you put together for the purposes of what mike has led us to, this part of the conversation. White supremacy, thats the problem. This is a hoax. Theres no evidence that White Supremacists were responsible for what happened on january 6th. Thats a lie. We have a moral obligation to admit the worlds poor, they tell us, even if it makes our own country poorer and dirtier and more divided. Demographics demographics demographics demographics remember the Great Replacement Theory was a conspiracy theory. Sound more like a fact. Ilhan omar has shown the failed immigration system k. A single human being be as loathsome . Its hard to believe. Montel williams, you know, is something thats within her range of experience. Is she good at it . We cant say. But shes done it. Just for maskistic reasons, one more time. So it might be time for joe biden to let us know what Ketanji Brown jacksons lsat score was. Why was she doing the lsats . They think you should be el vaccinated on what you do, not your dna. Thats rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. Rwanda. Were not sure how george floyd died. Very few unarmed black men are killed by white cops these days, wheres george floyd when you need him . The only Job Training Program the administration has gotten is to get more black people to is sell more weed in the cities. You never see politicians say malcolm x, why is that . He didnt talk like a sharecropper. Xenophobia, seems look antique. Theres colorblind equality and against racism. I i wanted to talk to you today. Youve been youve had the courage to sort of go toe to toe with him. Youve underscored and highlighted what its hard to figure out what is most odious that he broadcast. The thing thats intriguing to me about the message is its a video he was watching weeks before. So i my brain was wondering if it was something from December 19th where we know at least a couple of of the proud boys werent allowed to be in washington on the we dont know. That isnt known yet. That isnt part of this reporting. But i think it is probably the sad truth that this was a Business Decision. Tell me your reaction to reading these words from Tucker Carlson and what he thought was a private moment. On the one hand you cant not be shocked by this stuff. On the other hand, it is kind of, well, its not that surprising, its Tucker Carlson. And jeremy said a moment ago and first off, hats off to jeremy and mike and jim for this reporting and getting hold of this text. Jeremy said a moment ago it didnt add up, so they went to look for the text. After reading the text, it still doesnt add up to me. I half agree and half disagree with what jeremy was saying. In the sense, this is worse than other things, the text, because it is an expression of homicidal rage. On the other hand i wouldnt downplay what he says on his show. I wouldnt say it was all that coded as we played. He pushed the Great Replacement Theory which is a neonazi antisemitic conspiracy theory. The adl wrote to fox two years ago and said this is antisemitism, you should get rid of Tucker Carlson. And murdoch said no, dont believe your eyeing eyes or ears, well is fine. Over the past two years hes pushed the great replacement again and again. Hes called immigrants people who make this country dirtier, as you saw in the clip. He asked for Ketanji Brown jacksons lsat scores, never asked for gorsuchs or kavanaughs. Theres plenty he said on air that you wonder was the fox board not watching Tucker Carlson tonight for the last few years. Its been five years, nicole, since the daily stormer, the neonazi website that said Tucker Carlson is our greatest ally and the daily storm of the tv show. Not sure if the fox board were paying attention when they said that five years ago. And if the fox board were worried about the text last night jesse waters, touted as a replacement on live fax air, referred to illegal immigrants, people he can tell are illegal just by looking at them. Ive got to ask are they waiting for a jesse waters text before they statewide not to give him the 8 00 p. M. Slot . I dont think this was the full story yet. I think this is part of the story. But i just cant believe that the fox board decided, oh, wow, this is the line that Tucker Carlson crossed in terms of his racism and offensiveliness. Dont get me started on 1 6 and the Conspiracy Theories which Chris Wallace left the network over. Dont remember the fox board saying anything then. Lets talk about that, mehti. The reporting includes a sense that it was the dynamic of a straw breaking a camels back. It was all these things, it wasnt any win, it was perhaps all of them. I want to bring katie in to find out how two parties negotiate knowing that one of them is desperate to keep this text that the times now has reported on and published out of the public view. But you know, the violence i want to play this for you. This is some we went back and looked at a lot of it, im only going Play A Smidgeon of it. Some of Tucker Carlsons singular coverage of Kyle Rittenhouse. So we really surprised that looting and an arson accelerated to murder . How shocked are we that 17yearolds with rifles decided they had to maintain order when no one else would . 17yearold Kyle Rittenhouse wound up in the street in kenosha in the first place with a gun for one reason he was there because in the summer of 2020, the leadership of the Democratic Party endorsed mob violence for political ends. During the course of our conversation, Kyle Rittenhouse was bright, sincere, dutiful, and hard working. Exactly the kind of person you would want many more of in your country. Tucker carlson puts rittenhouse on the map who ends up spending time with donald trump i think at maralago and at the white house. Jeremy, my colleague peter baker once described trump as a match in the powder keg that is america. Tucker carlson is the gasoline. Every grievance that emanates both the Republican Partys most animated faction and where it intersects with domestic violent extremism in america if we are to believe the bulletins from the department of Homeland Security is amplified by this one host. I take your point that that was, you know, done. That was locked in well before any Discovery Process By Dominion commenced. They had access to the platform long before that. What do you its clear that nothings changed. To your point, the folks trying out for his time slot are trying to outdo tucker. What does that say . It says that the problem is not Tucker Carlson. The problem is fox. The problem are the murdochs. For too long weve focused all our ire on Tucker Carlson or sean hannity or judge jeannine or whatever it is. The problem is the institution. It is fox which allows this stuff, which echos this stuff. If you look at the Rupert Murdoch text, they dont make him look good in his control of this stuff. You mentioned Kyle Rittenhouse, that should have been the board stopped and said why are we saying there should be more rittenhouses in america . What about kanye west . Tucker carlson has west on his show, edits out, nicole, Edits Out The Stuff where hes being antisemitic and hide it from the viewers, right. We only find out because of leaks. That was a moment where fox, the quote unquote news organization, should have been held accountable. Thats the problem here. I worry that fox is trying to Behind The Scenes dump it all on tucker and try and look like they acted responsibly, and thats nonsense. Yeah, i mean, mike, was there any sense that, you know, Maria Bartiromo or any of the others could be salvaged if they cut off the cancerous part of the anchor team . Theres this element of defiance. The other part of the Discovery Process Yields Defiance of Rupert Murdoch. He wants laura and sean and tucker to join hands and kumbaya say joe biden is president. They dont do anything of the things he wants them to. Take us inside what the reaction was to what they were learning maybe for the first time that these anchors were saying about them. They called a female executive the c word. It was a very ugly picture of i dont know if insubordination captures it. Yeah. I think that the february text began to build an even larger sort of set of issues for tucker. And these were the texts that came out as part of the litigation that were public. And they showed, you know, someone saying, you know, bad things about his bosses. He you know, and making remarks that internally, you know, created problems for him. And you know, would this text in and of itself if it had been found by itself, what would fox have done . You know, i dont know. But it added to this larger set of issues that they had with him and really, you know, basically put fox in the position where they were going to have to contend with this investigation, you know, into him. You know, what does that mean for other hosts and stuff like that . You know, i dont know. Look, they fired lou dobbs sometime after the election. I dont know what theyre going to do about Maria Bartiromo and, you know, there were certainly internally discussions about how she had created a lot of the problems for them around the lawsuit. But i mean, i think that part of the reporting on this and the challenge and the fact one of the reasons we sought out, you know, documentation in this is that fox is not obviously the most transparent place on the face of the earth. Its a place thats run by a family, and it is it doesnt operate like many normal companies or institutions at all. So that makes reporting on it all the more difficult. And it does not have a lot of Good Standing in the general public and certainly with the media. So when it makes a decision and does something, People Struggle to take any of it at face value given its past actions. Such a good point. I want to bring in katy fang on all of the legal questions, whether this could be damaging and mike mentioned the shareholder suits. I have to sneak in a short break. When we come back, well hear from katie and have more on how Tucker Carlsons depraved world view could have been a liability and may still be for fox news. Plus, threeterm democratic congressman from texas colin allred telling voters this morning ted cruz only cares about himself, announcing his run for ted cruzs senate seat. Currently held by the insurrectionsupporting senator. Well talk about that later in the show. And later in the broadcast, as the expresident continues to press ahead with what could be a very real run for the white house again despite multiple Criminal Investigation into him, a credible accusation of rape in new york is being treated again in some corners as just another candidate for Office Heading to iowa. Well bring you those stories and more after a break. D more ak at tmobile, your business will save over 1000. What are you going to do with it . I could use a new sign. With tmobile for business, save more than 1000 versus verizon. And with our price lock guarantee, well never raise your rate plan. Ever. Annika. I found the bomb. Ok johann. There should be a blue wire and a yellow wire. And with our price lock guarantee, theres a blue wire with yellow stripes and a yellow wire with blue stripes. Cut the blue one. 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Golo is real, our customers are real, and our Success Stories are real. Why not give it a try . We are back with jeremy peters, mike schmidt, katie phang, and mehti hassan. Katie, Take Me Inside the legal significance of this text message. Thank you for that. I want to set the table again and turn back the hands of time a tiny bit. I want to remind our viewers about the fact that the dominion and Fox Litigation obviously had a history prior to the date that it settled. There was a time when dominion moved the judge in this case to basically tell fox that you had done too many redactions, and the judge agreed. And the judge ordered fox to basically unredact a very large portion of the evidence in the exhibits that had been filed. That big dump of information that happened in february beginning of march predated the Summary Judgment order that was entered that was particularly damning against fox revealed so much about what was going on internally at fox. Interestingly, the New York Times is continuing to push this court for further redactions. Theres a pending motion that has no disposition in front of the same judge thats basically saying we need to know, america, the public needs to know what is going on behind the redactions that fox so desperately wanted to make sure that they wanted those redactions to stay in place so no one knew what was going on. Whats interesting is this particular text from Tucker Cal Son it a producer and listen, this may be an unpopular take. There is the possibility that this text message may have never seen the light of day. Why . Well, because the Discovery Process, in discovery when you send a Discovery Request or serve a subpoena, its broadly construed. It allows the lawyers for the other side to make a determination as to whether or not its, quote, relevant to the request. If you see redactions, if im Dominion Lawyers and see this plethora of redaction, of course im going to go to the court and say i believe theres relevant information that needs to be turned over. The court does a review, within the chambers the Court Reviews those redactions and decides whether or not theyll be released and made public. Theres a possibility that this particular text may have been irrelevant to the dominion litigation. Katie theres a possibility the court may have said this doesnt speak to what was going on with the defamation to dominion, so we may never have seen this. But to the question you posed prior to the break, whether this is still relevant to other litigation, absolutely. These are huge red flags for the other plaintiffs to pursue. Well, katie, theres something in mike and jeremys story today, as well as the last reporting by the existence of the text message, that these were messages and content not flagged to anyone on the board. What does that say about the legal team . I mean, it it seems like maybe they were in your sort of Description Myopically focused on what would be permitted by this judge. But it seems like a lawyer for fox news, being sued for 1. 6 billion for defamation, that turns around election lies would have been particularly attuned to the things that Tucker Carlson was saying in private messages. I think the generous interpretation would be that maybe there was a break dmoin breakdown in communication. When you couple what were hearing now and the reporting were hearing with what weve learned from Abby Grossberg, again, giving her benefit of the doubt of what shes told us, nicole, the legal team for fox news prevented her from being able to review her deposition transcripts. Did not consult with her or allow her to tell the truth. If you look at whats going on now, there was some serious incompetence that was being committed by foxs legal team. There is if youre going to be producing this much discovery, then you better be ready to handle it. And i find it hard to believe that fox news with all of its money didnt have the appropriate white glove, white shoe law firm to be able to handle this. I will also throw into the mix for the possibility as to why this pushed a settlement in this case the following jeremy was in the courtroom with me, as well. We saw that final kind of jury that the composition of the jury, and ive told anybody who will listen that that injury ended up being part of the reason why that case settled. That jury was primarily composed of minorities. That was not a foxfriendly jury. If you know that you have these types of violent and racially charged Text Messages of which i believe this is the tip of the iceberg, i firmly believe this is not the last that were going to hear about Text Messages that are promoting violence and promoting racism coming from Tucker Carlson and others, if you know that this is the tip of the iceberg, of course youre going to want to settle to prevent it from happening. Foolishly, youre highlighting this for other litigants. As for people like Maria Bartiromo, in light of the Abby Grossberg situation, dont her to be terminated any time soon. Theyre not going to poke that bear and invite drama from Mar Eye Bartiromo by terminating her. Tip of the iceberg . Are there more . Well, as we were talking about the times is seeking through the judge to have the messages unredacted and more of it made public. That, i assume, will take many days if not weeks, if think longer. I dont think that will be a quick process. My guess is that fox will make its own argument in the course of it. But you know, when i sort of step back from all of this and look at this, you have to look at this in the totality of the damage that the dominion suit did to fox. It cost it over 700 million. It created starting in february with the disclosure of the Text Messages that did come out, very, very bad publicity for the company publicly, and created internal issues and finger pointing about what people were saying about each other in private messages. And its led to the disclosure of this message. We would not have seen this message if the dominion suit had never been brought or because it had to be produced in the discovery. And because of that, it came into the mix in the litigation and was included in documents and was ultimately, you know, available to the point that we were able to see it. None of that happens without the dominion suit. So when the history of the dominion suit is written, you know, we know about this text message today because that suit was brought. And mehti, im still saying katie phangs astute objectsization that it was not a foxfriendly jury. It was an american jury. It looked like america. What does that say about fox . Its a good point. What does that say about fox . It says about fox that sadly were not going to see anything changing on fox. My worry now is that i mentioned jesse waters and what he was saying yesterday, and he might be the replacement for tucker. Whoever the replacement for Tucker Carlson is at 8 00, i dont think theyre going to dial this stuff down. Theyre probably going to dial it up. Look at the Ratings Disaster that theyve had the past youve got People Fleeing Fox at 8 00 because their base loves this stuff. Their base loves the kind of stuff that tirk says on air and tucker says on her and going to newsmax or whatever it is. That means were in for a ride where stuff is not going to get better any time soon. Mike mentioned the history of the dominion suit. The history of American Politics in this era, in this period when it was written, when its written fox will loom large. And i said for a long time all roads lead back to fox. Even now were discovering Kevin Mccarthys speakership was apparently reportedly according to Abby Grossberg, negotiated with Tucker Carlson, the terms of it. All roads especially on the road lead back to fox. We have to understand the damage it has done to our public life, to race relations, to minority communities, to democracy in america. Great replacement there quoted in the manifestos of at least mass shooter in el paso and the alleged Moose Shooter at the tree of life synagogue. It is a dangerous idealogy, and thats not hyperbole. Jeremy, im going to give you the last word. To mikes point and katies and mehtis, we know this because of the legal work that fox paid pretty pennies to. Did they fire their lawyers . It did once botch a year ago they fire about a year ago they fired their legal team. Katie raises a great point. Theres really no good reason that the board and Senior Executives at the company did not know about this text message. And tucker, we know from our reporting, was asked about this in his deposition. So its not like it was just sitting there in a pile of redacted documents that you had to comb through thousands and thousands of pages to see. He was asked about it. Lawyers knew from both sides. And you know, when i started hearing about this text, the ebbs since of it a while existence of it a while ago, you knew it was bad, but if i was hearing about it, why werent the executives at fox hearing about it . And it is really a question of time after time after time in this case foxs Legal Counsel led the murdochs to believe they were not as exposed as they were. If we lose it in delaware, dont worry, we can appeal, we can take it to the supreme court, and well win. Dont worry that you know, youre not going to have as much of your emails and Text Messages out there as ended up being out there. And not just that, it wasnt just like the fox. Com emails, dominion was able to get the personal cell phones, emails of rupert and lockland, and thats what foxs legal team didnt prepare them for and why i think the lawyers in this case, not just the ones that fox hired externally, but the ones internally have a lot to answer for. And theyre the same lawyers representing them in the Shareholder Lawsuits and the smartmatic case . Theres a lot of lawyers. Theres a lot of lawyers. Im beginning to understand why. Jeremy, mike, jim, important scoop, important piece of reporting in filling in something that mehti covers better than just about anyone, the picture Behind The Scenes at fox news. And katie, for making sense of it for us. Thank you. Katie returns in the next hour. Thank you all for starting us off. After the break, paging ted cruz. Get used to this person congressman Collin Allred announcing he will challenge ted cruz for his senate seat. Part of his pitch, the incumbents unlike ability and actions surrounding january 6. S. Whoa. Okay. Easy does it. We switched to Liberty Mutual and saved 652. They customize your Car Insurance, so you only pay for what you need. With the money we saved, we thought wed try electric unicycles. Whoa careful, babe saving was definitely easier. Hey babe, i think i got it its actually. Whooooa ok, showoff help oh only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. When i first started ancestry, i had no idea what to expect. 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Congress colin allred, a dallas area representative, former nfl linebacker. He announced his candidacy for senate this morning with a video that starts like this when i left the nfl, i thought my days of putting people on the ground were over. Then january 6th happened. I remember hearing the glass breaking and the shouts coming closer. I texted my wife, whatever happens, i love you. Then i took off my jacket and got ready to take on anyone who came through that door. Ted cruz, he cheered on the mob. We will not go quietly into the night then hid in a Supply Closet when they stormed the capitol. But thats ted for you. All hat, no cattle. Tag line there. Joining our coverage, former congresswoman Donna Edwards and tim miller, writer at large for the bulwark. Both msnbc contributors. Tim, you did a fantastic interview with the congressman. Let me play some of this. You come to the nfl locker room and you go at lunchtime, youll see the Countriest Boy Sitting next to the guy from the middle of the city who are like best friends and who are, you know, going to who are working hard together and feel like theyre brothers. And so i ive seen these divides be bridged. And you have to be inclusive, and you have to give folks some buyin. I have said in particular these are prodemocracy folks who i think the biggest divide in their politics right now isnt so much when democrats and republicans, its between folks who believe in our democracy and those who dont. I mean, tim, this is like it is one of the most important messages, and hes One Of The Best messengers on this front. Tell me your reaction to his announcement. Yeah, i was hoping he was going to run. We interviewed him on the podcast about a month ago, and i thought it was interesting to that he was considering running. His background is so unique. Hes an nfl player. He actually didnt get drafted and then decided to try to get into the nfl even though he also got into law school. I mean, this is a pretty talented guy. So putting the merits aside, the type of person you would want in the senate. And when i talked to him, he seems like somebody who is very Down To Earth and good natured and wanted to try to reach out to republicans. Thats what youre going to have to do in texas. Thats what youre going to have to do. I like the contrast that hes offering with cruz whos a fulltime podcaster and Internet Troll and occasional senator. One thing he said was he said sometimes in texas we feel like we have one senator, john cornyn, because ted cruz doesnt show up. Hes too busy, you know, going on ben shapiros podcast and tweeting. And i think that thats a good contrast for allred. And you know, look, this is a state if you look at 16, trump won by nine. Then by five. Now in 2024. The direction is moving this way. Allred has got to, you see that a little bit in the video, to focus on people voting for george w. Bush and rick perry and bringing them across the line. Beto did a great job of turning out the turnout but it wasnt enough. Now youve got to win the crossover voters. He seems like the type of guy that could do it. I think this is more realistic than some efforts weve seen from democrats in red states. I mean, beto only lost by two points in 2018. There were a lot of former bush people watching the district sort of the precincts around houston and dallas come in and thought that beto might do it. So to tims point, to his many brilliant points, well deal with ted cruz in a minute. I want to talk about allred. I want to show you more of his ad. My boys are fifth generation texans. Theyll learn that this state is full of generous people who look out for each other. Where if you work hard and play by the rules, you can get ahead. Thats how a Working Class Kid raised by a single mom can make it to the nfl, law school, and even congress. You dont have to be embarrassed by our senator. We can get a new one. Some people say a democrat cant win in texas. Well, someone like me was never supposed to get this far. Ive taken down a lot of stuff about ted cruz. Lets get on the field and find out. Im colin allred, and im running for senate. Donna, hes so good and so strong. Ted cruz is the most loathed person in the Republican Party. Im not in it anymore, but when i was there was no one thought to be a bigger weenie than ted cruz. He is loathed all across the ideological spectrum. Tell me how you see this race shaping up. Well, if you look at ted cruzs poll numbers, he really is kind of under water with republicans, although still strong. But where i think colin allred does really great and democrats have not always been great at picking candidates that is a right fit for the state or district, but colin allred is that. He won first when he came into congress in a district that was represented by pete sessions, a republican, for over 20 years. And he defeated him. He appeals to independent voters. He runs in the suburbs, so he understand suburban voters. I think he has exactly the right kind of profile that is going to be important to put forward in this year challenging ted cruz. And i love that his video starts out with january 6th and shows that contrast, and also sort of ticks down the line of the things where ted cruz is on the opposite extreme end of the spectrum. And colin allred offers a really sort of center that is a uniquely texan approach to politics. I want to do the other side of this. Weve talked about the unique strength. I want to push a little more on cruzs unique weaknesses. We have to sneak in a break. Well be right back with that. Well be right back with that. Take your lawn back with Scotts Turf BuilderTriple Action gets three jobs done at once kills weeds. Prevents crabgrass. And keeps it growing strong. Get a bag of scotts Triple Action today, its guaranteed. Feed your lawn. Feed it. vo if youve had Thyroid Eye Disease for years and the pain in the back of your eye its guaranteed. Is forcing bad words from your mouth, or. The bags under your eyes are looking more like purses, its not too late for another treatment option for Thyroid Eye Disease, also known as ted. To learn more visit treatted. Com thats treatted. Com. Sometimes, the lows of Bipolar Depression feel darkest before dawn. With caplyta, theres a chance to let the light shine through. And light tomorrow, with the hope from today. This is a chance to let in the lyte. Caplyta is a oncedaily pill that is proven to deliver significant relief across Bipolar Depression. Unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and bipolar ii depression. And in clinical trials, Movement Disorders and weight gain were not common. 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This is i would have to imagine a politician vulnerable in any state, including texas. Tell me how his recent antics, also as his state of literally freezing to death, off in mexico, hes been a terrible senator for the people of texas. If it was a slightly less red state, he would be a senator anymore. Hes on the same ballot as greg abbott. Abbott got 500,000 more votes. Cruz only wins by two points. This shows hes just that unpopular, right . It wasnt even about the policies, its about people dont like ted cruz, they like beto. Now weve done cancun, the fact that hes obsessed with his podcast and not actually a senator, just how embarrassing and sniveling hes been, cozying up to trump and his wife. The podcast on democracy and on police. How about this for a contrast. A Football Player who is with the police, who is for Law And Order versus a guy who got Police Killed while he was hiding in a broom closet. I think if that is a contrast that allred continues to drive, i think its a winner and cruz is super vulnerable because all of this has happened since he barely eked out a win in 2018. I think with republicans on the other side of the 85 of americans with abortion and gun safety, every republican is vulnerable. But, donna, what tim is saying makes me want to adjust that to every republican is vulnerable had faced with a talented democrat and thats what allred is, a very talented and authentic politician. I think thats right. One of the things thats really different from 2018 with that huge Voter Turnover for beto in 2018 is abortion politics have changed and theyve particularly changed in texas. And i think it puts ted cruz in a very vulnerable spot. And then of course you had uvalde. Again, it has a great contrast from allred to ted cruz. This guy was beatable in 2018 and i think hes beatable now. People dont like ted cruz. Hes not a likable guy and hes cynical and hypocritical. I think the contrast with allred is going to work to allreds advantage in this race. Its such a good point, tim, about ground zero for the most unpopular Abortion Bans is texas with its vigilante feature, as well as the uvalde families and how theyve been treated by republican politicians there. Yeah. And hopefully speaking of democratic politician strength because can you get in trouble on this. Beto didnt do as well on his second race. He got a little too far out over his scores. You can focus on abortion and be with that 85 . You talk about a ban on guns, everyones for that, background checks, everyones for that. Imposing bounties on women who have abortions at six weeks . These deeply unpopular issues. Allred, his district is george bushs current district. So i dont know who laura bush is going to vote for. But think about that kind of republican, a laura bush type of republican. Are they going to be for a Collin Allred or someone for a fiveweek abortion ban. I do not speak for any of the bushes anymore but it is a provocative point to pause on today. Thank you very much for spending time with us today. Still ahead around here, the dangers of treating a disgraced, twice impeached, once indicted Vice President like any other guy heading to iowa. Well have that next. G to iowa. Well have that next no more secretly renting the attic to that scary lodger that i met at the reservoir. Were not rich. I used kayak to compare Hundreds Of Travel Sites to get a great deal on our flight, car, and hotel. Loud Rustling and clanking from the attic who goes to the reservoir . kayak. Search one and done. After my car accident, i wondered what my case was worth. Kayak. Search one and done. So i called the barnes firm. When that car hit my motorcycle, insurance wasnt fair. So i called the barnes firm. It was the best call i couldve made. Atat t bararnefirmrm, our r inry a Attneysys Wk Hahard i couldve made. Atat t bararnefirmrm, to get you the best result possible. Call us now and find out what your case could be worth. You u Mit Bebe Sprisised the Barnes Firm Injury Attorneys call one eight hundred, Eight Million im sure theyre going do their Due Diligence and have some kind of plan about fact chamber of commercing. Its not just Kaitlan Collins talking to him. Its an incredible gift to trump. Because hes back on fox news after a soft ban and every time trump would pick on desantis, mark levin would say this isnt helpful, theyd tweet about it. Theyve all come back around, given in and theyre going to give him regular air on fox and this idea that hes going to be on cnn, obviously the most important thing that its going to be a huge advantage for trump. Hi again, everyone. Its 5 00 in new york in 2023. Here we go again, treating donald trump like a normal politician, not the inciter of an insurrection against our government, the taker of Classified Information to his pretty residence, the ally to dictators all across the globe that he actually is. As donald trump kareens into the 2024 election season indicted under Criminal Investigation by the d. O. J. In fulton county, georgia, accused of rape in new york, hes lapping up the red carpet as the leading republican candidate in early primary states. Its incumbent on us to ask is it really two sides airwaves have open up giving him the legitimacy and air time he craves. Hes already said he Wont Take Part in the debates. He continues to attack anyone and everyone who he thinks wronged him or might in the future. That includes judges simply upholding the rule of law and witnesses who have been subpoenaed to testify in cases against him. Now, while the Republican Party he leads is all too happy to lay down again, follow him down the path of autocracy, transforming the gop into a party that stands on the other side of democratic forms, as well as a majority of americans opinions on gun safety, Voting Rights and health care. Republicans and State Legislatures have taken pages from trumps tyrannical play book, silencing and expelling lawmakers they disagree with. So those asking as we gear up to the next president ial season, will it be 2016 all over again. Its clear this time its not because we know who he is, we know what kind of President Donald Trump is. We know he stops at nothing to cling to power. We know he will weaponize the federal government and institutions he leads to his open benefit. We know all this. Hell try and sabotage and destroy his own government, even his own gp. And we know the gop is fine with it and follow him down this path of antidemocratic ways. Democracy on trial for all of us is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. A. B. Stoddard, and Morgan State University journalism and politics professor Jason Johnson joins us. Neil, i start with you. Ill speak for myself. Some of us are ready to acknowledge that it is not the role of the rule of law in democracy to deal with an out of control politician. Its the role of the heart to police them. When the Republican Party broke down and donald trump saw good people on both sides of the kkk gathering, i think it became clear that the party didnt have the back bone and the appetite to take him on. I think the pressure built on mueller for two years and it has built for the last two year on merrick garland. Do you think theres any chance that the Rule Of Law In America will restrain donald trump . I do. So i think that the pressure now because of the failure, as you say, of the Republican Party to police itself against a demagogue and mueller to do the same is now its falling on the courts in, hes been indicted in new york and there are certainly others coming and it seems like jack smith is running an aggressive investigation nearing its final phases, but at least for now, as you pointed out at the beginning, the media seems complicit in giving him a platform. Look, i believe very much in debate and the clash of ideas and i want to hear a speech from the other side and those with whom we disagree. Its truly what makes this you to quote taylor swift on tiktok, this is not your fathers Republican Party in is a guy who has been indicted already, who has stolen sensitive documents and kept them and ordered an insurrection on january 6th and in a span of one month, theyre going to flip from covering the arraignment of donald trump to giving this guy a town hall. To neals point, heres what he has to say. This is his First Campaign speech in waco. Where do you sit in the United States government . Nancy pelosi, schumer, biden. So what he says there. We have some bad audio on the feed. That was his First Campaign event, it was in wake owe, on purpose. Quote, our biggest threat are high level politicians that work in the u. S. Government, Mitch Mcconnell, nancy pelosi, chuck schumer, justice department. For those who have been wronged and betrayed of which will are many out there that have been wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. I will take care of it. Its like running for seventh grade class president and running to lead the mob, the neighborhood mafia chapter. To his i dont know if we could even call it credit but he doesnt use secrets for what he wants to use these platforms to communicate. Absolutely. Whats been so remarkable, as we watch ron desantis, who is supposed to be the viable alternative to trump, the person who can take him down and the heart throb of all the donors and still will not tell us he cannot be president again. They just say things like he cannot win. They never tell us that he shouldnt be president again. So as youve seen that dream of a Trump Replacement falter, theyve been silent as he said things like ill be your retribution. And he has embraced the january 6th event, the cause of the prisoners playing this bizarre song that theyre making money off of his event and hes going to pardon all of them if he gets elected, hes made it clear. Its part of his sales pitch in this campaign and the republicans are silent on it. Theyre the gatekeepers. It was up to Mitch Mcconnell to help convict him on February 13th on 2021 to end this threat to the Constitutional Order and they did not. Then they started to say things like trump cant win. And now hes back on fox news and its normalized. Health insurance so whats so threatening, he will stay the same and escalate his lies. Kaitlan collins managements decision to put him in a town hall where he will lie puts a tremendous burden on her, which she may meet, to fact check him the entire time. And if not, that is a giveaway to donald trump and a gift to donald trump, normalizing him, not only now on fox but on cnn as just another candidate who is not putins puppet, who did not threaten the peaceful transfer of power, who did not lie to us while this Disease Spread through our society and killed hundreds of thousands of people before they came clean about it. He almost won that election, nicole, in 2020 by 44,000 votes in only a few states. So i think its time for people to sober up about the threat that he continues to present. A. B. , let me just say Savannah Guthrie did that same heroic journalistic task of Fact Checking everything when nbc had a town hall with donald trump in 2020. But it is an undue burden on anyone. Thats really not the point. Its a bigger conversation about how you cover someone whose embrace of violence was made abundantly clear through hearings. Quote, he wont tell them to stop because he agrees with them. What did they want do . They wanted to hang mike pence. He agreed with them. Until they turn themselves around in open waters, it doesnt matter how many times you fact check him. Hes not a normal politician. Hes a wouldbe, you know, coup plotter because of frank live frankly his incompetence. And those insurrectionists mission that day was to, quote, hang mike pence. And we never had any evidence that he was remorseful about that. We have not heard from Top Republicans saying this is a president we want supported who sicked the mob who wanted to can i go mike pence after his own vieft in a threatening tweet. They will not say, nicole, that he has disqualified himself as of january 6th, republicans, elected and elites. They will not say that he lost the election. And the Republican National committee, as you well know, will break the rules for him. He doesnt have to debate if he doesnt want to, he doesnt have to sign a pledge if he doesnt want to. Yes, the challenge for the media is to try to cover this man where republican officials themselves will hold him to no account and provide a long runway in which he can dominate and play by no rules and skirt his way to the nomination without challenge. So, jason, we also are that country thats looking around for something else. Its like the alarms going off in your apartment and youre like someone else will deal with it. No one else is coming to deal with trump, right . No one else is coming. Hes about to be sort of granted the cloak of legitimacy. Im sure this wonting the last and i take him at his word that jack smith and others may hold him accountable. May or may not happen. In my view, it doesnt seem to be on any schedule to happen ahead of election. My question for you is how do you democrats adjust to the new reality that it is on them to simply beat donald trump and all of his enablers in elections . Well, the first part is the democrats have to recognize that theyre actually in war, right . This is its the old untouchables thing, they come with a knife, you got to come with a gun. They come with a gun, you got to come with a cannon. This is not a twoparty system. I have said this hundreds of times with you. It is a dime there the democrats have to stop functioning as if they are working with or trying to compete against another party. The republicans have bought the supreme court, the republicans have said that they explicitly do not care about using violence to influence elections, the republicans have consistently passed laws to make it difficult for people to vote. So democrats have to recognize any they need a War Time Consigliery to get through this. Thats step one say were going to war against bigotry, fascism, against the guy who tried to overthrow your country. I dont believe the rule of law is going do anything. I dont think its going to do anything fast enough. If it was going to operate fast enough, it would have stopped people part of the coup attempt to getting and so the Democratic Party has to function as if they are responsible for governing, for keeping this country safe and theyre responsible for putting down an ongoing coupe and until they do that and republicans stop believing that theyre going to rein donald trump in, and theyre not, we will continue to slowly ebb towards an autocracy. Thats not something any of us want to live in but i think the democrats are in a unique position do something if they recognize the situation theyre in. The language of war. Let me show you what liz cheney had to say about her own party now. The reality that we face today as republicans, as we think about the choice in front of us, we have to choose because republicans cannot both be are ladies and gentlemen, we stand at the edge of an abyss and we must pull back. For speaking the truth of about her own party, she was first ousted from leadership and then she served on the january 6th committee and matt gates, among others, orchestrated her ouster from her seat in congress. That is the truth for one of the most conservative republicans ive ever known in my past life in republican politician. How does that inform and animate Everybody Else . Obviously its fallen on deaf ears but it had some impact on voters and i would hope some impact on hollosy makers. So and the Republican Party so far hasnt listened to her and havent made the right ones. And jason and the war going to fascism and extremism like it is, to me theres a tell in donald trump. Hes a guy who is like, for example, as the news today shows, hes afraid to debate in his own party. And, you know, a debate involves, the exchange of ideas so its not surprising that trump is afraid to debate because the only thing trump exchanges in is he reminds me of those kind of college kids who are so afraid to dethey disagree, they want to hide in their own bubble. Thats really donald trump at his core. Its okay if youre a college kid. Its not okay if youre going to be president of the United States. He wants to be a leader of the free world. So i do think the kind of things jasons talking about and calling hum and its not unfortunately happened to the extent it should. Jason, ill give you the last word. What is your advice . You have to recognize that were in war and you cant believe in republicans anymore. I literally thought about this just like a couple days ago. Imagine a Football Team. If you had a Football Team where the quarterback, like, sold the play book to another team, Sexual Assaulted somebody and tried to use a gun to win a game. That team with fire the quarterback. We would assume that would happen. We have Higher Standards for an nfl team than we do for the Republican Party. Because donald trump has done all of those we have to stop pretending that republicans are anything other than terrorists. Its not hyperbole at this particular point. They endorse terrorism. So the moment we start functioning that way, we might be able to save this country. And thats the only answer at this point. Not arguing about the debt ceiling, not arguing can you get matt gates, this, that and the other. Recognize youre at war. When the democrats do that, we might scape out some semblance of democracy in a couple years. But im not banking on it. This conversation is to be continued. Thank you so much for having it with me and starting us out today. When we come back, what to make of moscows provocative yet unverifiable claim that it defended an attack and says they could be using it as a pretext to launch a large scale attack against ukraine. And the president s indicted exattorney says he wont be presenting any evidence. And the nationwide on lgbt members. Members. I got to choose the phone i wanted. For free. Not bragging. cecily youre bragging. neighbor oh, hes bragging. seth who, me . Never. Oh, excuse me. Hello, your royal highness, sir. cecily okay, thats a brag. seth hey, mom. I gotta call you back. vo switch and choose the phone you want, like the incredible iphone 14, on us. cecily on the Network Worth bragging about. Verizon with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. 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The first few weeks were really astonishing how quickly and how easily it came off, how much better i felt, what a change it made so fast. I feel like anything is possible after accomplishing what ive done with golo. There is a Major Development to tell you about today that could fundamentally alter the direction in russias brutal war against ukraine. U. S. Officials are looking into russias unverified claim that ukraine attempted to assassinate president Vladimir Putin overnight in a drone strike on the kremlin. According to russia, the kremlins Defense Systems destroyed two drones over putins residence in moscow causing an explosion of some sort, as you can see on the video on your screen right now. Putin was not home at the time of the attack. President zelenskyy denying the tack explicitly saying when he was on a visit to finland, quote, we dont attack putin or moscow, we fight on our territory, unquote. Now officials are on edge about the kremlins claims, given the claim comes day before a Victory Parade at red square, potentially giving putin permission to justify further acts against ukraine. Joining us is Barry Mccaffrey and retired u. S. Army colonel, alexander vinman, foreign director for the national security. Director colonel pitman, what do you think happened here . It feels like weve been talking about putin for so long . I want to say it feels like false flag text. I dont know that for sure. What is your analysis . I dont think its a false flag. I dont think at pretext for russia to escalate. Frankly, russia has no place to escalate to. Its not saving some secret weapon. Its really out of capability. The reason that people think about false flag is russia is constantly lying about all different sorts of things. Theres evidence that putin came to power on a bunch of bombings in moscow and used that to rally around the flag effect to get the population behind him and demonstrate he was the one to take the country forward. This was all the way back in 2000. In reality, if you follow the lomgic logic of who stands to benefit, its not russia. It shows an enormous amount of weakness. Whats striking about this visual is in the foreground you have the mayday parade. Putin made this an annual celebration of russian power. You dont have that kind of stark contrast to an outright attack on the kremlin to showcase a weakness. So to me this is potentially Ukrainian Special services, opposition groups. I think those are much more likely than a russian false flag attack. Either way its quite embarrassing for putin, for russia and probably going to draw russian air defenses to secure. General mccaffrey, how do you have see it . Well, i think we dont know who carried out this operation. Its semi comical. Its unlikely to have been in any way an Assassination Attempt on mr. Putin. He would have needed to be standing on the head of the kremlin bare headed to be a likely target. He usually is out of moscow protected by Security People in his own daca fortress. Its almost 500 miles kyiv to moscow. It doesnt look like it would have been fired outside of russian territory. So the only thing we are sure of, this was not a zelenskyy attempt to assassinate putin. It makes no sense, puts him at greater risk. What we should be concerned about now is the potential for escalation. The russians are categorizing it as an Assassination Teams so were on the edge of a desperate putin thrashing around. His military has failed him. Hes an economic pariah. He is abhorred by the International Community in general and hes out of options as Colonel Vinderman suggests. This is former russian president medvedevs statement. After todays terrorist attack, there are no options left except for the physical elimination of zelenskyy and his clique. Hes not even needed to sign an act of surrender. I believe rhetorically that represents an attack by the russians. Its interesting hes turned out to be an uber hawk and frankly some of his rhetoric is comical. The russians have attempted to assassinate president zelenskyy and his family before. There will likely be some sort of retaliation against kyiv, against ukraine, to demonstrate russia is not going to take it lying down. But in fact, they dont really have much capability. I think as General Mccaffrey mentioned putin doesnt live there. The ukrainians know that. They know exactly where putin is in general because its not hard to spot a mileslong convoy moving throughout the city to get to the kremlin or get to his dacha on the outskirts. So it was not an Assassination Attempt but clearly the what the u. S. Intelligence role in all of this . Were keeping a pretty close eye on the russians. Their Tape Abilities were trying to tutor the ukrainian senior military in what they might see coming. By the way, in the background of all of this is the drama of the coming ukrainian offensive. Essentially there are now nine armored brigades that ukraine has pulled out of combat, theyve been reequipped with modern equipment, theyve been trained and theyre ready to go. Probably you see an offensive sometimes and the russians are terrified of this. I dont know whether the ukrainians can pull this off but the russians are correct to be extremely concerned. Will they see their Combat Forces unravel sometime this summer . The ukrainians have tremendous high morale, though they also economically have been devastated. The civilians have become the primary target of Russian Strategic task forces. Theyve got to end this war. A lot riding on Ukrainian Armed forces. I have been banging away on the Biden Administration for not providing all right offensive weapons. Weve got to give the ukrainians the and crimea specifically. All right. Well stay on that part of the story as well. General Barry Mccaffrey and Lieutenant General alexander vinman, thank you so much for joining us today. And the latest from the trials sixth day after a quick break. Xth day after a quick break. Im over 45. I realize im no spring chicken. I know whats right for me. Ive got a plan to which im sticking. My doc wrote me the script. Box came by mail. Showed up on friday. I screened with cologuard and did it my way cologuard is a oneofa kind way to screen for colon cancer thats effective and noninvasive. Its for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. False positive and negative results may occur. Ask your provider for cologuard. group i did it my way so, you found the no7 then. 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And they heard about carrolls response to the incident that there is no right or typical normal way to act during or after being raped. But trump lawyer joe tacopina is wrong to take anything out of why she did not scream or call the police. And the psychologist talked about how trauma can alter how someone respond. She said that screaming during rape would be an response, it is the last thing that is likely to occur. Molly, Take Me Inside. I understand just before we came on that the access Hollywood Tape was played today. Tell me if there was any reaction or your sense of how the days evidence was presented. Reporter we had a pretty jam packed day. The third woman the jury has heard allegations to testify against allegations against trump. They did play the infamous access Hollywood Tape in the last hour. We were trying to get a good look at the jurors faces. Some of them were expressionless. Two of them in the back row appeared to be concentrating very closely on it and they all had a transcript of what trump was saying during that video. This was played toward the end after she told viewers about interviewing donald trump in maralago in 2005 where she alleged that he led her to an unoccupied room in maralago and cornered her and forced himself on her and said he kept trying to kiss her as she pushed him back and she ultimately decided to stay silent, telling her direct supervisor at work, and not running it up the chain out of fear the story would get killed. Shortly after the access Hollywood Tape was release, it was that point of her testimony that the jurors watched the video. It was hard to gauge exactly how they felt about it. We certainly saw a few shocked faces. Katie, there are two patterns that have clearly been presented to this. It begins with unwanted kissing. Its escalating in the testimony of the women that have testified. And then its described by trump, right . I cant help myself, i just cant stop kissing. They let you grab them in the p, they just let you do it. How impactful do you think that will be with the jury . You raise a critical point, which is the jury would otherwise not hear it but for the judge in this case allowing them to testify. Otherwise it would just be e. Jean carrolls recitation of what happened to her and Donald Trumps own words on the tape. But to hear the pattern and that is exactly the word that e. Jeans lawyers will be focusing upon, a comment and practice by donald trump. Today under oath natasha testifies in front of a jury that he led her into a room, the door closed behind and he shoved her against the wall and began to kiss her without her consent. Thats exactly how e. Jean carroll said what happened to her in that dressing room. And we have officially heard from the defense team of trump that there will be no defense put forward by trump. There is no testimony from donald trump himself, no expert in psychiatry that was originally supposed to be called. And there will be the closing of the case. Im not going to put any kind of stake into this but there is a motion called a directed verdict that e. Jean carrolls lawyers can move for at the close of their case in chief and at the close of the defenses case. They literally have to get up and say i rest my case, they being trumps defense team and they can say, your honor, as the moving party right now, if you view the evidence in the light most favorable to donald trump, the jury could never be inconsistent with the evidence in this case, you and you should issue a directed verdict. Theres a possibility the judge will do it. I dont think youre going to see that happen in the case because hed be taking the case away from the members of the jury but its also a possibility. We like to know what is possible on the legal front around here. Molly, can you tell me the testimony about the Trauma Specialist. A couple days ago when tacopina was trying to it was almost a strong man argument, that she hasnt screamed, she hadnt called the police, talk about what the Trauma Specialist was able to fill in for the jury. So what Leslie Liebovitz who had started yesterday but spent most of her testimony happened this morning and up until this afternoon, she talked about how it is, you know, quite common for victims of Sexual Assault and Sexual Violence and she mentioned even Service Members dealing with unresolved trauma, how it can be very common to remember visceral details about an event, you know, what happened in the actual moment and forget broader details like how they left at the end of the day, how they got there, the time, the location. And she also talked a little bit about how the kind of flood of Stress Hormones somebody experiences in a moment like this can cloud their judgment, kind of interfeern with their natural instinct like to scream or to and tacopina could ask her why she didnt scream. And thats quite common for victims of Sexual Assault and victims of all different crimes. Thank you again for making sense of a really important and difficult story. Thank you to both of you. When we come back, well be joined by montana lawmaker zoey zefr. She was banished for fighting for trans rights against a Republican Party hell bent on taking them away. Ty hell bent o taking them away uild up the sho, save for college and our retirement. But we got there, thanks to our advisor and vanguard. Now i see who all that hard work was for. It was always for you. Seeing you carry on our legacy im so proud. At vanguard, youre more than just an investor, youre an owner. Setting up the future for the ones you love. 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But im not taking any chances. The uks 1 skincare has crossed the pond. For copd, ask your doctor about breztri. Breztri gives you better breathing, symptom improvement, and helps prevent flareups. Breztri wont replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. It is not for asthma. Tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. Dont take breztri more than prescribed. Breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. Call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vison changes, or eye pain occur. If you have copd ask your doctor about breztri. Theres been a legal setback for montana senator zooey. Zephyr. She spoke in opposition to a trans bill about the harm that these laws cause and warning her fellow lawmakers that if they proceed, they would, quote, have blood on her hands. Here republican colleagues called her actions a, quote, insurrection. In response to the judges ruling, representative zephyr tweeted, despite all the cruelty, i believe people saw a glimpse of what our country can be if we stand up for democracy and for one another. I will be meeting with communities and lawmakers across the state and country to discuss how this moment becomes a movement if we stand together. Zooey zephyr joins us here. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. I first have to ask if you and your girl friend are safe. Yes, when the fake phone calls came in, Law Enforcement instead of calling s. W. A. T. Called us. And that was that. We followed what your colleagues are responding to but just tell us what they have a majority in terms of making policy. Theres really no chance theyre going to be overruled. Is it simply your voice in advocating against their policies that that led to the censure . Can you tell us your story . Yeah. Were seeing a growing extremism in the Republican Party, and that extremism isnt sufficient, isnt enough for them to get th dissenting voice women saw that here in montana. We saw that in tennessee when lawmakers stood up in nebraska, in oklahoma. So theyre demanding that we not be able to stand up and speak to the real harm that their bills, their policies or their inaction lead to, and when we do that, theyre using the legislative tools at their disposal to silence or remove us from the legislative process. What do you think it is on the right that creates such energy or fervor to want to insert themselves in families conversations or conversations between transyouth and their family or doctor. What is the political piece a this for republicans . You know, their effort around trans people currently is an echo of the attacks on the Gay Community in the 90s, and its an attempt to create a boogieman, to drum up fear within the most extreme elements of their base. And we know that this is an echo because we see the way in which the language mirrors, the way detransitioners are flown out across the country, much like the ex gays in the 90s, the way recruiting was used to slander the Gay Community. And now were hearing harmful words like groomer being used. Their attacks will fail much like the attacks on gay rights did in the 90s because were part of your community. Were your friends, neighbors, and youre never far from a trans person or someone who cares deeply about us. What would you say to a coalition of allies that want to stand with the Trans Community but dont have all the facts . What can people do . What can we do . So, the first thing you can do is if someone in your life is trans, listen. Listen to them and understand that they if it feels like it was a light switch moment for you, trust that the trans person in your life has been sitting on this emotion for a long time, working through it slowly, and if theyre going to Access Health care, theyre going to be doing so carefully in consideration with their doctors, with therapists and psychologists. Beyond that, go out, do the work, do the research in your community. Look up information and stand up in your communities wherever you are on behalf of trans people. That would be my single hope. And you have drawn a national and im sure International Community to not just your cause in the Montana State legislature, but your advocacy. I invite you here any time you want to be part of these conversations. I really appreciate your time today. Grateful to be here as always. Thank you. Thank you. Montana state representative zooey zephyr. Quick break for us, well be right back. 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I heard about the Payroll Tax Refund, it allowed us to keep the amount of people that we needed and the people that have been here taking care of us. See if your business may qualify. Go to getrefunds. Com. Theres an update for you on that tragic shoot at a Medical Center in atlanta that killed one person and injured four others. The local hospital that treated the four injured reports that one of the victims is in surgery and the other left the operating room and is doing well. The suspect was at the medical facility with his mom is still at large at this hour and multiple agencies from across the atlanta area are on the hunt. Georgias senator Rafael Warnock took to the floor of the senate to react to the news of the shooting in his hometown and made an impassioned plea for change. As a pastor im praying for those affected by this tragedy, but i hasten to say that thoughts and prayers are not enough. And in fact in fact, it is a contradiction to say that youre thinking and praying and then do nothing. It is to make a mockery of prayer. Wow. Senator warnock will be on tonight with our friend and colleague joy reid right here on msnbc at 7 00 p. M. Dont miss that. Another break for us. Well be right back. K for us well be right back. seth not to brag, but i just switched to verizon. cecily wow seth and i got to choose the phone i wanted. For free. cecily not that youre bragging. vo switch and choose the phone you want, like the incredible iphone 14, on us. cecily on the Network Worth bragging about. Verizon so, you found the no7 then. Its amazing hydrates better than the expensive stuff i dont live here, so im taking this and whatevers in the back. Its already sold in the us. But im not taking any chances. The uks 1 skincare has crossed the pond. Wayfair has nice prices the uks 1 skincare so you can have nice things. Hah kelly clarkson, we have a kid. And harold. 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