For across all religious lines, but particularly a president that says he is personally committed as a christian. Why do we have anything, anything close to trying to play religious divisiveness and trying to castigate peoples basic beliefs. Win on the merits, not by playing these kinds of games. Thanks for watching. Im al sharpton. Hardball starts right now. Were back to benghazi. Lets play hardball. Good evening im Chris Matthews in philadelphia. Let me start tonight with this a newly disclosed email from Deputy National security adviser ben rhodes has reignited the benghazi firestorm on the hard right. Senator Lindsay Graham has
coined the white house scum bags. Darrell issa is comparing president obama with president nixon. But the freakout once again doesnt square with reality. Heres what got things going. Rhodes refers to a prep call with susan rice ahead of her appearances on those five sunday talk shows the weekend after the tragedy. Rhodes calls one of the goals for the interview should be, quote, underscore that these protests are rooted in an internet video and not a broader failure of policy. How is that different from what we now know actually happened . According to the Bipartisan SenateIntelligence Committee report from earlier this year, in fact, from january, some intelligence shows the attacks were likely put together in short order. Following that days violent protests in cairo against an inflammatory video. Whats more, the first draft of the cias talking points for susan rice participants an even clearer picture. We believe based on clearly available information that the
attacks in benghazi were inspired by the protests at the u. S. Embassy in cairo. Michael steele and david corn join us. Michael, ive been watching this thing atrying to keep my cabinet file in my head filled with facts coming out of the bipartisan Intelligence Committee report which said yes, this was a copycat operation against the facility in benghazi, spurred or triggered by whats going on around the middle east but especially in cairo. And the issue in cairo was triggered, they believe, by this inflammatory video coming out of california making fun of islam. That seems to be what this memo points to by ben rhodes. Saying that, saying in other words what we now believe to have been the case. Whats the problem, whats the smoking gun. Theres a lot that needs to be answered for benghazi. I think that the initial handling of this by the party, overpoliticizing it, in fact, diminishing in i really real invetigatory earth ffort to fin what the facts are. Oh, we still want to bring whoever did this to justice is almost ludicrous at this point. You have something at this email come and be revealed foia, again, contextualizes concerns that a lot of people, not just republicans had about the handling of benghazi and what led up to some of the decision make on the ground. I think its a legitimate tool and point of interest to discuss. What this new memo shows, normally say, calling people
scum bags, is it any different in substance than what we got in the bipartisan support on the Senate Intelligence committee way back in january . Short answer, no. Here are all the new documents that just came out. I encourage the smoking gun memo i read it. Theres nothing in that memo that changes anything that we know. And its quite clear that the one line they pull out of it, that ben rhodes is clear ly cle referring to all it in cairo and yem yemen. Thats what hes talking about, the big picture. I still think there are questions unanswered about benghazi and about, what aur
capables were beforehand and the state Department Review board looked into this and said there are reasons why more should have been done before the fact. And, you know, all the great things that should be looked at so that we never lose another Public Servant like ambassador Christopher Stevens and the three other americans who perished with him. But for the republicans again and again today to get out there and make this stuff up is really sacrilegious to the memory of Christopher Stevens. With all due respect, thats just a load of crap. A load of crap . Were not making anything up. Yes, you are no, were not. Were looking at the same stuff youre looking at. It may be a matter of interpretation or opinion, but the white house in handling this thing from the very beginning has botched it. And this memo, this particular paragraph that he started the segment off with, weve got to put this story, this is just about the video, and susan, just
make sure you tell everybody that were not failing on our policy, that were doing this the right way, or it could be as nice and easy packaged at david put it. Theres no doubt, gentlemen, that the white house has botched this up. Why didnt they put out this memo with all the earlier stuff they put out . Why do they let a rolling disclosure occur . Which is what i said for years in politics. The one way to lose your credibility is have information leak out point and point. This was a foia thing, but it makes the white house once again play defense. This past january, some intelligence suggested the attacks were put together in short order. Relatively spontaneous, following that days violent protest in cairo against an inflammatory video. This is just
what susan rice said from cairo. In that case probably caused by the anger over the video. We dont know what we dont know over benghazi. In the light thats been shown, you just admitted that this rolling effect. Calling the white house scum bags, theying they lies. Look, look. Let me finish my point. Loon look, im not into the name calling crazy. We dont need to name call here. But theyre name calling. Theyre saying its a coverup. Michael, hes what some of
yours are saying opinion the rhodes email has set up a freakout. As i mentioned Lindsey Graham coined a phrase you dont n normally hear from a senator. Some guy said on the left the only reason i cared about this was because ive got six tea party opponents. Well, if thats true, im the biggest scum bag in america. The scumbags are the people in the white house who lied about this. And republican congressman darrell issa held another round of oversight hearings on this where he compared president obama to richard nixon. Heres congressman issa. The American People have learned you can not believe what the white house says, what the spokesperson say and what the president says. The facts are coming out that, in fact, this administration has knowingly withheld documents
pursuant to congressional subpoenas in violation of any reasonable transparency or historic precedent, at least since Richard Millhouse nixon. The language couldnt be more horrendous, given the fact that theres hardly a nuance of difference between what we learned now and what we learned a long time ago about the tragedy in benghazi. By the way, will we please remember that ambassador Chris Stevens was a grownup, a sincere professional of sound mind. He decided to go out to that risky facility that night. He made that decision, which ambassadors have to make. It turned out to be a horrific situation me walked into. But the idea that someone should have been covering for him. But that someone else should have the army there defenning him, i think its a little ridiculous. I think its the responsibility of the president of the United States in this administration to protect those
ambassadors who go go into harms way willingly. How would president obama know that Chris Stevens was going out to a facility alongside a cia facility in the middle of the night some weekend. How would he know that . How would he know what . I didnt hear the question. How would the president even know he was going on that trip out there to benghazi. Highway would the president know that specific event . We do have emails and correspondent between the ambassador and the state department. If the president doesnt know it, at least his secretary of state and her department should know who is on the ground and what is required to protect the United States ambassador in a place like benghazi. This isnt Rocket Science and you know if the shoe were on the other foot, you would be screaming holy hel about how a Bush Administration failed to protect one of its ambassadors. Youre acting as if theres been no investigations. There have been several,
including some led by republicans in the house other than darrell issa. A lot of this stuff has been looked at. Did we just not get an email released in the last 24 hours or week that wasnt a part of the initial discussion that were all talking about. How do we know whats going to be released tomorrow or next week . You can keep saying we dont know whats really out there i guess im trying to look at this reasonably. I understand the politics of this completely on both sides. But this argument, it seems to me, trying to apply this to what happens in any war zone this was a war zone. This country was not being governed at the time. You go into afghanistan, syria today, iraq, there are places in the world where its dangerous to go to. People get killed all the time in surprise ambushes. It happens all the time. Roadside bombings. We live in a world of unpredictability and horror. And the idea that one of these incidents would be blown up as the most important issue of the Upcoming Elections for kingdom
come to me is out of proportion. Thank you, michael steele. I wish i got to meet Chris Stevens. Everybody thought he was a great guy. Coming up, bill clinton was doing more yesterday than just burnishing his own image with his speech about income inequ inequali inequality. He was also protecting hillarys left. Plus the big muddle thats become the republican race for the white house. Three guys, jeb bush, rand paul and Mike Huckabee are all bunched together, each representing different action factions of the party. And the botched execution is not about sympathizing with convicted murders, i think its more about the rare cases that an innocent person is on death row. And finally, let me finish with the praising new struggle between the clintons and the Democratic Left over the 2016 primary fight. This is hardball a place for politics. Some Financial Guidance so she could take her dream to the next level. So we talked about her options. Her valuable assets were staying. And selling her car wouldnt fly. We helped sydney manage her debt and prioritize her goals, so she could really turn up the volume on her dreams today. And tomorrow. So lets see what we can do about that. Remodel. Motorcycle. [ female announcer ] some questions take more than a bank. They take a banker. Make a my financial priorities appointment today. Because when people talk, great things happen. Florida, florida, florida. Weve got new poll on the 2016 president ial race from what has been the biggest battleground state in president ial politics. But if Hillary Clinton run, its not even close. Lets check the hardball scoreboard. Hillary clinton leads the Top Republican in the state, former governor jeb bush by eight points. Clinton 49, bush 41. And thats as close as the republicans come. Against florida senator marco rub rubio, clinton leads by 12, she leads Chris Christie by 18. Clinton 52, christie down at 34. Hillary leads former arkansas governor Mike Huckabee by that same 18point margin. And its an 18 point against rand paul. Clinton 55, paul down at 37. Wisconsin congressman paul ryan trails hillary by a big 20. Ted cruz does the worst against clinton in the poll. Hes running 26 points behind the former secretary of state. Look at these number, 57 to 31. For cruz. And well be right back. Between hearing about my daughters gym meet, and being there. Yeah nailed it unlike the bargain brand, depend gives you new fitflex®, our best protection. Its a smooth and comfortable fit with more lycra strands. Hi sweetie get your free sample at depend. Com. We are the thinkers. The job jugglers. The up allnighters. And the ones who turn ideas into action. Weve made our passions our lifes work. We strive for the moments where we can say, i did it we are entrepreneurs who started it all. With a signature. Legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses, turning dreamers into business owners. And were here to help start yours. Turning dreamers into business owners. Could mean less waiting for things like security backups and file downloads youd take that test, right . Well, what are you waiting for . You could literally be done with the test by now. Now you could have done it twice. This is awkward. Check your speed. See how fast your internet can be. Switch now
and add voice and tv for 34. 90. Comcast business built for business. Its going to be a real Battle Center left, Hillary Clinton and the left, inspired by Elizabeth Warren of massachusetts. Yesterday, bill clinton came out of his corner in round one. He served notice that he is prepared to celebrate his own economic record. At georgetown yesterday, he argued that he brought 8 Million People out of poverty and into the american middle class. He also has been making a pitch for preschool education. A page right from the book of new yorks populist new mayor bill deblasio. Could the clintons be making it clear, do not get cut off from the Democratic Party base, not
let Elizabeth Warren, who says shes not running, or someone else with her leaning, that shes not tied to wall street. For the clintons theres a problem. At some point, they have to choose, do they join with the hard left and blast away with people at wealth, especially those in big finance. Do they . Even though they have many friends and sup the poerts in those ranks . And at what point will they face the need to say the populists have gone too far. Ryan grimm and anna palmer, ryan lets get to the picture here. Bill clinton coming out of the georgetown with former secretary of state Hillary Clinton, as wife, and former first lady, sitting in the first row. This seems a brazen statement of preventive war that hes ready to go to war with anybody that he says he wasnt, if you will, populist enough as president. Right. I think that speech actually had more to do with bill clinton that Hillary Clinton. Bitter isnt necessarily the right word. But he feels hes not getting enough credit for what he did on inequality in the 1990s. The idea that nobody was talking about this in the early to late 90s is crazy. I ran on a populist theme. I was a populist president , you know, an i did x, y and z in order to reduce income inequality. And he wants that credit. I think that has a lot more to do with why he gave the speech than actually anything related to 2016. But isnt this really about tenor and attitude that Elizabeth Warren is seen as kind of a trust buster, an old progressive who is willing to go in and make enemies. And really be known as someone wall street doesnt like. Im your nemesis, your worst nightmare. His friends, all the people i
know in wall street are friends of the clintons. Social friends, financial friends. They help them in their campaigns. Isnt there a wall they will not cross or jump over. Theyre not willing to say im standing outside of wall street calling for its down fall . Theyre not going to go as far as, you know, Elizabeth Warren does, but theres always been, you know, some of that kind of southern populism in clinton. And he wants to remember that part of his campaign. I can just see this flipping in the next two weeks and back again. Former senator clinton whos running probably, she wants to be seen as somebody who can get alone with business and inspiring them to start spending the 2 trillion theyre sitting on and not be seen as the enemy. How can they be populist and seen as helpful partners of big business and big money . I think that they understand or they want wall street to be in on the joke, right . The clintons are saying, listen, we have a history. We can be populist. When i was, you know, when bill clinton was in office, he did things for the left, but payment, i think when you look at all of the friends on wall street, they understand exactly who the clintons are, exactly how they would be business friendly to them. And the fact that, you know, just as ryan said, if there sunt a jeb bush in there, certainly wall street is very comfortable with Hillary Clinton on the ticket and in the white house. So if theyre throwing spears and arrows on wall street, those who are their friends will discount it and say we know this is part of the political business . Absolutely. They see her nowhere near as bad for them as president obama has been. They also arent going on the attack in terms of any kind of aggressive nature. Theyre really only trying to
say listen, we do have this left message and we can communicate with them, but at the same time, wall street is known that theyre friends and they know theyre going to be friends with them flougt the campaign. One way to watch them is see how close they get to deblasio in new york who is not making any friends on wall street. Lets take a look at yesterdays speech. President clinton want back to his alma mater. His slogan was putting people first. He went back to Georgetown University yesterday and went to college and defended his Economic Policy ens white house years. In fact, some people believe, as you said, to bolster his own legacy. But also to neutralize criticism from the hard left ahead of hillarys expected president ial campaign. Youre free to decide to think i made a mistake, but all the people that say, you know, what was bill clinton doing getting in bed with wall street and lowering the Capital Gains tax, he was getting 6 million poor Children Health insurance
coverage. Oh, clinton was lucky. He caught the tech boom. Clinton was lucky, he came out of the recession. And all of the socalled prosperity in the 1980s, only 77,000 of our fellow americans move from poverty into the middle class. In the 90s, 100 times as many. 7. 7 Million People did. That was policy. Well, that was a lot of number there. Almost 8 Million People did move in to the middle class from poverty. Hes pushing back from complaints from progressives like warren that the clintons is too close to business. The New York Times writes, quote, his language as president was more focused on lifting the middle class than castigating the wealthy. That should not be confused with a lack of concern for the poor. Mr. Clinton says now. Let me go back on this. It seems to me that this is the fight. I dont know what other argument you make against willy clinton
except that shes been there before, she is the establishment the same way john kerry was and al gore and mike dukakis was. They are the standard bearers of the center. Being a centrist democrat is somehow bad. I think what youve really seen since bill clinton was in the white house, both parties, republican and democrat have moved to their wing. While bill clinton might have been a populist in 992, what those policies are for now for a lot of the far left, the moveon. Orgs of the world arent far enough left. Theyre going to try to push the clintons as far left as they can because those are the policies theyre going to be to be
enacted. You ha. They want to see people heading towards the center, at least in terms of bottom line. Maybe not in attitude, but getting things done. They dont want a bunch of people shooting arrows at wall street. At least according to our poll. Maybe when youre looking at the general, but in terms of looking at the base, people who are going to come out and vote, youre going to be talking about a lot of the people that do want to move the party to the left and have had that kind of obama kind of populist movementmoving messages. Thats what theyre going to want to hear. Can you make the same kind of fight against the clintons that obama effectively made on the issue of the war in iraq where Hillary Clinton voted for the war didnt vote for the war, but voted to authorize it. And thats the issue they beat her on, i believe. Can they find the same Sharp Division on issues involving economics that you can find in a war in. No, and actually people 234
clintons circle are bringing that moment up. There is no stink bomb like the iraq vote when it comes to Economic Policy. Theres certainly a sense that the clintons are closer to wall street certainly than somebody like Elizabeth Warren and closer than i i think, a lot of the Democratic Base would like people to be, especially after the 2008 financial crisis. I think before the crisis, wall street was looked at as kind of an enlightened element of capitalism and if we can merge kind of progressive values with the free market then thats a great way to build a majority, but after the crisis, i think that changed. But there is no youre exactly right. Tlp is no single war vote. Thank you. Up next, our own chuck todd goes hollywood. This is hardball. [ girl ] my mom, she makes underwater fans that are powered by the moon. She can print amazing things, right from her computer. [ whirring ] [ train whistle blows ] she makes trains that are friends with trees. My mom works at ge. Its been that way msince the day you met. But your erectile dysfunction it could be a question of blood flow. Cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be Ready Anytime the moments right. You can be more confident in your ability to be ready. And the same cialis is the only daily ed tablet approved to treat ed and symptoms of bph like needing to go frequently or urgently. Tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medications, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sexual activity. Do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. Do not drink alcohol in excess with cialis. Side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache or muscle ache. To avoid longterm injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than 4 hours. If you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, or if you have any allergic reactions such as rash, hives, swelling of the lips, tongue or throat, or difficulty breathing or swallowing, stop taking cialis and get medical help right away. Ask your doctor about cialis for daily use and a 30tablet free trial. [ ship horn blows ] no, no, no stop humans. One day were coming up with the theory of relativity, the next. Not so much. But thats okay youre covered with great ideas like optional better car replacement from Liberty Mutual insurance. Total your car and we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. Learn about it at libertymutual. Com. Liberty mutual insurance. Responsibility. Whats your policy . Welcome back to hardball. Time for the side show. David letterman said you can actually turn the human brain on and off. In fact, they said along with this most recent issue of scientific monthly they sent along some video. Of an early test of the brains on off switch. I also wanted to tell a story, and heres the story. My dad like many of your you your many of you who have relatives here. Many of you have relatives who did the same thing yop uh ear here, your relatives probably arent. Next, joe mchale of the e
networks the soup is hosting the White House Correspondent dinner. Lets check the latest polling. 96 of americans own a television. Only 51 have cable. Of those who have table, only 28 receive the e network. Only 14 are aware that e is a network. And only 8 of those who have heard of e watch e. And only 0. 2 tune into the soup. So what does that mean . Im talking one person right now. Buddy, how you doing . The soup is in d. C. That was my colleague chuck todd. Finally, anyone with small kids at home has probably seen the Academy Award winning film frozen. These u. S. Marines are no
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president obama welcomed teacher of the year finalists to the white house. He also recognized a teacher from baltimore as National Teacher of the year. A report on Malaysia Flight 370 shows 17 minutes past air Traffic Controllers in malaysia and vietnam realized that plane was missing. In southern california, winds are grounding helicopters and airplanes used to fight a massive wildfire. It burned more than 1,000 acres and is only 10 don takened. And new dramatic credential of wepzs street collapse in baltimore shows cars slowly lurjing to the side before the ground gave way. Back to hardball. Welcome back to hardball. The republicans i identity crisis is clearly exposed in a
poll. The leard bunched at the top come from three distinct factions and shows that republicans can face a real battle for identity itself in 2016. Among republicans, jeb bush, representing the establishment faction and rand paul representing the libertarians are tied at the lead at just 14 a piece. Thats just 14 a piece. Just a hair behind them at 13 is Mike Huckabee, representing the religious and evangelical part of the party. Bunched in the middle of the pole are two establishment candidates, paul ryan at 11 , Chris Christie hanging out at 10 with a lot of prosecution possibly. And marco rubio down at 7. Ted cruz and rick perry. 6 . Scott walker, who could be a sleeper at 5. With the republican field split like this, the 2016 primary and the jockeying for alliances will make this a dramatic election cycle i think for the party. Kathleen parker is a syndicated
column ix, a very successful one. And a political analyst as well. And clarence painl is kge is a t for the chicago tribune. Is jeb bush running . Yes. I think ive been told definitively that he is running. I havent been told that by him. So he may call me right after the show and say who do you think you are . But i got this from very reliable people. He is definitely running. That changes a lot of the plans for a lot of people. Marco rubio will not run. People in the know say he definitely will not run and that may as well effect other peoples decision making. It changes the dynamics a little
bit. I guess thats a great way to put it. Youve got the secular libertari libertarians, they dont talk about god much. The establishment types who sort of, you know, theyre establishment types. They dont talk about religion at all. And then youve got to huckabee people out there waiting. Whos whats the most natural allian alliance. Is it the establishment types going into bed saying were both hawks because you cant really have rand paul as the hawks. Whats the Natural Alliance that ends up being the Winning Ticket down at South Carolina. I give that back to kathleen because she knows that pretty well, too. What goes into South Carolina and beats the other faction now 21. I think what weve seen in the past is that the Tea Party Libertarians and the evangelical republicans tend to be closely
aligned in most ways with the exception perhaps of the separation of church and state issues. However, theyve all got to Work Together ultimately. And republicans tend to have remarkable talents for healing and forming their coalitions after they get their initial fightings done. So those are your most Natural Alliances. Let me ask you about that in South Carolina. What happens on the hawkish front, the christian conservatives are very pro on foreign policies. Theyll just join up with whoever is the gun toting hawkish person from the establishment. Can you see jeb bush joining up with the religious right . Jeb is actually far more conservative than george w. Bush was. Anticipate he is pro life and he is, you know, hes the one who
talks with compassion about immigration, for example. That doesnt really help him much in South Carolina and some of the other southern states, but he, you know, he has an ability to, i think reach people in ways that some of these others may not. He may surprise you. Eechb thou even though he may not be quite as well known as some of the other likely candidates in certain ways, but he has the ability to speak, hes very conversational. If youve heard him speak, you know this. I think he can appeal to a broad Cross Section of people, even in South Carolina. I dont think you have to necessarily tote a gun, but you do have to be respectful of people and recognize that its not you know, that the southerners and christians are not people to be sidelines. I would add to that, of course theyre going to prefer someone like Mike Huckabee, but hes not running for president. How much do they want to beat Hillary Clinton . 16 years of what they despise. Are they willing to run someone they dont really like like jeb bush in order to beat hillary . Thats the big question. I remember bag in 08 hearing a number of republicans say it takes at least two election cycles for the more factional folks to fall in line. And thats true of democrats, too, actually. Right now, the republicans are looking at the possibility of getting the Tea Party Folks get the evangelicals together. Will they settle for jeb bush. They didnt settle for john mccain. They didnt settle for mitt romney. But now they may be desperate enough whatever, or angry enough to pull together. If they cant, then hillary
clinton is going to have a much easier path, i think. Thank you,ser Kathleen Parker and clarence page. Ing everything i have into this place. Thats why i got a new windows 2 in 1. It has exactly what i need for half of what i thought id pay. And i dont need to be online for it to work. It runs office, so i can do schedules and budgets and even menu changes. But its fun, too with touch, and tons of great apps for stuff like music, cause a good playlist is good for business. I need the bosss signature for this. Im the boss. Honestly i wanna see you be brave honestly at your ford dealer think . They think about tires. And what theyve been through lately. Polar vortexes, road construction, and gaping potholes. So with all that behind you, you might want to make sure youre safe and in control. Ford technicians are ready to find the right tires for your vehicle. Get up to 120 in mailin rebates on four select tires when you use the Ford Service Credit card at the big tire event. See what the ford experts think about your tires. At your ford dealer. Weve got new poll numbers down in florida. According to a new quinnipiac poll, its Charlie Crist now running as a democrat. Look at this, a 10point lead over crick scott. Its crist, 48, scott 38. Well be right back. Stick with innovation. Stick with power. Stick with technology. Get the flexcare platinum from Philips Sonicare and save now. Philips sonicare explaining my moderate to severe so there i was again, chronic plaque psoriasis to another new stylist. It was a total embarrassment. And not the kind of attention i wanted. So i had a serious talk with my dermatologist about my treatment options. This time, she prescribed humiraadalimumab. Humira helps to clear the surface of my skin by actually working inside my body. In clinical trials, most adults with moderate
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favor capitol hill punishment although that has declined over the last 1 years. Support for the death pem fi reached an alltime high back in 96. Support had dropped by 23 points down to 55 . But still obviously a majority. Opponents of the Death Penalty cite Wrongful Conviction to make their case. The nonpartisan Death Penalty center come pipe pyled what it called nant individual showing 144 individuals sentenced to death have been legally exonerated since 1973. With us now is diane russ tierney with the National Coalition to abolish the Death Penalty. And robert bleker, a Death Penalty advocate and author of the book the death of punishment. Why do we need Capital Punishment . Why is it appropriately morally and civilly to have that option in the courts . Because some people deserve to die and thus we have an
obligation to execute them. Im in full accord with president obamas position here. Although it slightly overstates it to say the evidence doesnt show the Death Penalty deters. Does it deter more than life without parole. Both deter. But the issue to answer your question again directly is there are some people who commit such heinous crimes with such cruelty and callousness that they simply deserve to die, that if we are committed to letting the punishment fit the crime that is the only punishment that we have that does fit some of those crimes. Yeah, let me go to diane on that. Your reaction to that. Well, professor bleker has sort of stated the classic sort of academic answer. Yes, we should have a Death Penalty. But the question that really is raised today particularly after the execution in oklahoma is can we or should we have this Death Penalty . What happened in oklahoma was a graphic example of why we should not have the Death Penalty. We cant get it right. You know, we cant find a way to kill people in a way that doesnt cause horrific kinds of
consequences that we saw, as you pointed out, we cant find a way of making sure were getting the right people. And we simply cant find a way of having a Death Penalty that works, that is consistent with the other values of fairness and equality under the law. So its one thing to support the Death Penalty in the abstract and say there might be some people for whom it would be appropriate. But the problem were addressing right now here today is that theth da penalty right now that we have doesnt work and its not sustainable and cant continue. Well, let me ask you this. If it were such a thing, if you had the guillotine, for example, which is i would say about 100 effective by definition, would you be for that . No. And theres a reason why we dont have the guillotine. Why not . Because the issue why not . Is whether a country no, im just asking you a question. If you just said effectiveness and humaneness, why not for something thats instant and its over with . Well, first of all, were not just focusing on what happens at the end. Whether you can kill somebody
efficiently. Its the entire process from beginning to end. And as you pointed out at the beginning, were not even sure that were getting the right people. There are 144 people youre changing the subject. I thought you had a particular point you were making. You said it was about humanity in the way we execute people. And im just asking you if we found a way to do it, and i think throughout history there have been ways, not that i necessarily support them, but if the issue is efficiency and effectiveness of the punishment, well, then well find a way. Most of the time these things do work. Isnt that the case . No, because we lethal injection generally works. Chris. Chris, we wouldnt be in this constant search for new methods. At one point the electric chair was supposed to be the new and improved way of executing people. And then lethal injection. What were seeing over and over again is theres no good way to do it. And again, thats only thats not what were saying. The very beginning of the process. You raised a number of questions. I think the other point you made, diann, which you alluded to, is the long appellate process. What about, robert blecker,
about the fact it takes so long to get all at peals, the habeas corp. Us and all the other appeals youre allowed under our court system, that youre really going after a person, executing them in this case 15 years after the crime. Its all part of the deeper irony that the very people who are decrying it are the people who are causing it. I mean, for diann to dismiss my position as academic is absurd. Ive spent thousands of hours on death rows and inside maximum Security Prisons interviewing these convicted killers and the people who guard them. Its not at all academic. And the problem with the method, as you point out, is not that it doesnt work. In my view the problem with the method is not that it possibly causes pain but that it certainly causes confusion because what it does is obscure what were doing. We are punishing. And yet what weve done is weve medicalized it. I witnessed an execution. He was wheeled in ease standardly would be in a gurney wrapped in white sheets with an i. V. Coming out of his arm, and it was bizarrely similar to a hospice, where my fatherinlaw was dying from an incurable cancer. How we punish those whom we
detest should in no way resemble how we sadly sometimes have to kill those whom we love. We should acknowledge what were doing, which is we are punishing. You point out the guillotine. Thats a possibility. The firing squad is another. Its not that its unworkable. Its that its conflating. Its that its bureaucratized what were doing, what were punishing if i could speak to i guess, diann to go back to your point i want to hear you out here. Cruel and unusual. Hanging wasnt considered cruel and unusual at the time of our constitution. Certainly firing squads have been part of our military history forever, ever since weve had rifles. Weve abandoned those methods. What is the definition, and why does it keep changing . Weve abandoned those methods for good reason. The public cannot support why . The public doesnt want to see people hanged and guillotined. Lets be real. If those things were thats not true. If those things were working wed still be doing them. But lets speak to the courts for just a minute. What do you mean by working . What do you mean by working . Thats the key question here. What do you mean by working in you say it doesnt work. That we get the right people. Weve got 144 people who were exonerated. Were not even getting the right people. That doesnt mean theyre innocent, as you well know. And that count is controversial let me finish my point about the courts. This is very interesting. Its an american debate and its ongoing. Thank you, diann rosstierney and thank you, robert blecker. I heard both sides. Well be back after this. She can print amazing things, right from her computer. [ whirring ] [ train whistle blows ] she makes trains that are friends with trees. My mom works at ge. As the company thats all about printing. But did you know we also support
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case the uber brackets. So the dpiet is fight is on. If it only serves to sharpen Hillary Clinton for battle it will be a good thing for the country. We need a tough sound uptodate case for the Democratic Partys center left, the smart and selling sequel to eight years with president obama. Thats hardball for now. Thanks for being with us. All in with chris hayes starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. And happy may day. On this may day two big stories about the minimum wage in america. In seattle a victory. Political and Business Leaders today announce they have reached a deal to raise the minimum wage to 15 an hour. The highest in the United States to be phased in over the next few years. Meanwhile, back in washington, d. C. A vote on a National Minimum wage hike to 10. 10 though garnering a majority vote of 5442 fell short of overcoming a republican filibuster. So what explains the difference