Tooeasy question. Who was James Buchanans vp . No one knows. John r. Breckenridge. Thatll do it for us. Well see you later. Thats great. Will this be the counterattack . Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews live from longwood, university, in farmville, virginia. And here we are, here we are, in fact, 30 miles from appomattox courthouse, where general lee surrendered to general grant, thereby ending a civil war that cost the lives of 600,000 americans. Well, tonight, were here at Longwood University for a battle in a political conflict between two very different points of view. Its the Vice President ial debate between indiana governor
mike pence, republican, against virginia senator, tim kaine, democrat. Its governor pences test tonight, obviously, to turn the battle from a defensive donald trump to an attack on Hillary Clinton. And to do so, he will need to execute a classic debate tactic, the attack from a defensive position. He needs to strike at hillary, most likely at her weak numbers on trustworthiness, at the very moment she and her running mate are assaulting trump. Trump spent the past week battling a former miss universe, defending himself against a New York Times article on his taxes, and mocking clintons health and even her marriage. Lets watch. She was the winner and you know, she gained a massive amount of weight. And it was it was a real problem. We had we had a real problem. Not only that, her attitude. The news media is now obsessed with an alleged tax filing from the 1990s. I was able to use the tax laws of this country and my business acumen to dig out of the real
estate mess. Shes supposed to fight all of these different things, and she cant make it 15 feet to her car. Give me a break. Give me a break. Hillary clintons only loyalty is to her financial contributors and to herself. I dont even think shes loyal to bill, if you want to know the truth. And really, folks, really, why should she be, right . Why should she be . Meanwhile, today, clinton again knocked trump on his taxes. Lets watch. He lost 1 billion. And as ive said repeatedly, thats hard to do when youre running casinos, but it demonstrates, i think, unequivocabl unequivocably, that he was a failure at business and he wrecked businesses, and by wrecking businesses, he wrecked the lives of his workers, he
stiffed contractors, and he generally disregarded the wellbeing of the communities, someone who is claiming to run for president based on his Business Success should be judged by that business. And i think what were finding out is deeply troubling. Well, donald trump tried to turn the attack back on clinton. Lets watch him there. She complains how ive used the tax laws of this country to my benefit. Then i ask a simple question. Why didnt she ever try to change those laws so i couldnt use them . The reason that she did not do that is her donors and contributors have used those same tax laws that i did, the same way. Tonight im joined by nbcs Andrea Mitchell, and usa todays senior political
reporter, heidi przybyla. Andrea, give us a sense of this fight from both ends . Reporter first of all, the clinton team is feeling really energized. Theyre up in two polls now by nine and ten points in two separate polls in pennsylvania, which is their firewall. Shes there today, appealing to suburban republican women in those bedroom suburbs of delaware county. And what theyre going to try to do tonight is to have, excuse me, to have tim kaine go after mike pence on all of the things that donald trump has, they think, messed up on this week, opening up all of these issues, the taxes, as well as, of course, the womens issues. They think that he can, you know, prosecute that case against mike pence. Pence, of course, they think, will be on the offensive, on the defensive, but pence is planning to go after clinton on her trust, on her reliability, and on those issues you heard donald trump bringing up today. So its going to be quite a matchup, i think, these two very policy wonkish running mates, taking on the roles of attack dogs. I wonder tonight, i know watching fighting as i grew up, big, heavyweight boxing, i always watch, the middleweight fights are always the better fights. Speaking of polls, a new nbc online tracking poll out today shows clinton beating trump by six points. Thats a pretty strong lead for Hillary Clinton. We also have new polls from several battleground states. Clinton leads trump by 11 in a new poll in colorado. Thats a big move towards hillary. And trumps ahead by five in ohio. Thats where hes been. Clinton also leads by 10 in a new monmouth poll. Thats huge. That is the firewall. Andreas right about that. Pennsylvania is the firewall. Thats where clinton will probably win the way things are going, and trump is not going to win there, the way things are going. Shes up by seven, also in virginia, another part of that firewall. And up six in one north carolina
poll, although thats much closer. In florida, she leads by five in a new quinnipiac poll. Thats another state thats going to remain close. Let me go to me other people here today. I think the most predictable thing at 9 00 tonight, besides the fact its going to be 9 00, is that tim kaine will be doing what hillarys been doing, hit him on his taxes and his treatment of women. Its so predictable, therefore, it should be easy for mike pence to predict the attack and counter it. I think mike pence knows hes here to defend donald trump or attack. Or attack, but i think you have a second line of attack that democrats or tim kaine will use. Mike pences job tonight is try to make trump look normal or seem normal to that last bastion of suburban republican women. And tim kaines job is to make mike pence look strange. And pence was put on the ticket to normalize trump, to make him acceptable to those who are
uncertain with trumps being. Women are the swing vote. If he goes after him on things like the religious freedom restoration act, which is a very important thing to young voters. If he goes after him on things like planned parenthood, defunding it in indiana, i think mike pence himself will come under attack, not just donald trump. But i dont know why you attack a vp. I would attack the top guy. What do you think . I think mike pence, theres no upside to him owning a lot of the things that tim kaine is going to try to make him own today. Hes going to try to make him own donald trump and all of these think of all of the things that have happened since the last debate, in terms of Alicia Machado and the taxes i dont think its complicated. Let me ask you both, because itll be my rhetorical question. Whats the safest thing for any politician on the republican side down the road. Defend donald trump or attack Hillary Clinton. Attack. Explain why. The Republican Party has an
existential hatred of Hillary Clinton. And shell be around. If she doesnt get elected this time, shell go again next time. And youre in a perfect position, if youre already attacking Hillary Clinton, to be attacking her now so you can do it later. Whereas defending trump is dangerous. And you also have to remember that republicans are looking for a midterm in twoigt, where they dont know how much of their own electoral base will be for donald trump. Not to mention that trump first of all, not to mention that trump didnt prosecute this case himself. This is one of things coming out of his last debate that republicans were most upset about, that he didnt take the opportunity to hit her on the clinton foundation, on libya, on benghazi, or even on the emails, which was such lowhanging foot. Mike pence has got to do what trump didnt do and go after Hillary Clinton tonight. Im absolutely convinced the tactic tonight to watch is attack from a defensive position. Everybody including all the republicans and all the commentators will say, oh, mike pence has got to defend donald trump. No, he doesnt. He could just attack Hillary Clinton. Earlier today, Hillary Clinton
responded to a question from a student about trumps comments on how women look. Why would mike pence want to comment on that tonight. Just stay away and attack hillary. You know, its shocking when women are called names and judged on the basis, solely on the basis of physical attributes. We have to stand up against that. My opponent insulted miss universe. I mean, how do you get more acclaimed than that . But it wasnt good enough. So we cant take any of this seriously anymore. We need to laugh at it. We need to refute it. We need to ignore it. And we need to stand up to it. And especially the bullying. Weve got Andrea Mitchell back. Andrea, give me a sense of what you think pence will do. I have a theory. I dont think hes playing defense tonight. What a waste of time. He cant defend trump. Trumps got to defend trump. Absolutely. I think he goes after Hillary Clinton in ways, as you just pointed out, that donald trump didnt. The emails, cybersecurity, all the things he did not open up, because he got so distracted in the debate, once she really got him off his game, by mentioning that he had inherited that company, 14 million loan from his dad. And after that, he just kept returning over and over and over again to his business issues, which were hardly what he should have been prosecuting in that debate against Hillary Clinton. So mike pence is very smart. You know, he clearly knows how to go after Hillary Clinton tonight. And you know he will have prepared a whole lot better than donald trump. Yeah, and i think pence is a very serious guy, perhaps a lot of people would say in terms of politics, too serious. But hes deadly. I want to go back to my colleagues here. Mike pence, look at the guy hes in this thing, seriously, he isnt here to have fun. He has an ideological commitment, he actually says what he believes, which
separates him from most politicians. You may not like his very conservative views on women, on abortion rights, on gay rights and a lot of women may not know them. But he is for real. That separates him from most politicians, im sorry, thats rare. And he took a job that was probably the most unpopular, unwanted job in republican politics. You see other elected republicans running for donald trump and cringing. Candidate for governor of indiana. There you go. The other issue is that mike pence may want to do the full pivot. You can call it the full 180. Youre asked a question about the same kelly ayotte question. He gets that question, would you be proud to have your children or your church see donald trump of president. Is that something which you can be of proud. Good luck trying to do a 180degree pivot answering that question. And hes got to answer it. You cant do a 180. Depends who the moderator is. Ive watched a lot of moderators who dont push a second and third time. And think about the tax issue. Donald trump has not had to answer for this in the way that mike pence will have to answer
for donald trump. Is the moderator tonight going to be tough and keep pressing like that, do you think . Its hard to say. But shes a tough reporter, shes a good recorder. I havent seen her do a debate. But i think at this moment, the media is under such pressure, as well, if she doesnt try to get him to answer that question, if she lets him go, shes going to face a lot of criticism. Where do we stand right now on the role of the moderator . Is it the fact checker or not . One of our colleagues got attacked for not Fact Checking, and another one got hit for fact what is the state of the art on that . Do you fact check or not . I think you have to do it as appropriate, you have to expect that the debaters will do a lot of Fact Checking for you. But you have to do a considerable amount of Fact Checking yourself. But each moderator has to make their own decision. But i think mike pence has an easy answer. I think hes all in with donald trump. He cannot not say, of course i would be proud, of course hes a role model. I really think that he believes in this, but on all of the
issues where trump has been arguably rude and vulgar, hell just pivot back to things that he believes Hillary Clinton has done wrong. I think he can isolate where he supports trump. He said, he can say trump has hathe guts to take on the political establishment in this country, thats an act of courage in my department and i do respect it. He can define what he likes about trump. Grownup politicians can define their answers. Here we are in virginia, Thomas Jefferson said, the whole art of politics is the art of telling the truth. If theyd only remember that. Thank you, Andrea Mitchell. Thank you, heidi prez byla and joy joy reid. Coming up, what did mike pence and tim kaine hope to publish tonight . For kaine, it might be to do no harm, but after the rough week donald trump has had, pence might have the sharper challenge. He has to break the clinton charge if he doesnt, whos going to do it . Coming up at the top of the hour, ill be joining Brian Williams and Rachel Maddow as we get ready for tonights debate. And then tim kaine and mike pence go face to face in the
only Vice President ial debate for the Vice President s. Well be back with full coverage of the debate and ill be back here covering everything that happens tonight until 1 00 a. M. Eastern. Were sticking with you. Hardballs coming back, and this is a special edition of hardball live from Longwood University in farmville, virginia, site of the Vice President ial debate. As a supervisor at pg e, its my job to protect public safety, keeping the power lines clear, while also protecting the environment. The Natural World is a beautiful thing, the work that we do helps us protect it. Public education is definitely a big part of our job, to teach our customers about the best type of trees
to plant around the power lines. We want to keep the power on for our customers. We want to keep our community safe. This is our community, this is where we live. We need to make sure that we have a beautiful place for our children to live. Together, were building a better california. Its a wild night here. Look at these people all right. You know, this is [ cheers and applause ] were out here in the country, this isnt some suburb in Bedroom Community of virginia, this is way out in the country here. Live from Longwood University in
farmville, virginia, for tonights Vice President ial debate. By the way, everybody knows, women make up a larger share of the electorate than men. Everybody keeps forgetting this, more women voters than male voters. Anyway, today, theyre getting the fullcourt press from Hillary Clinton. Two of clintons most powerful surrogates, Michelle Obama, and senator Elizabeth Warren hit the campaign trail today to exploit trumps terrible week and boost turnout. Here they go. If a candidate regularly demeans and humiliates women, making cruel and insulting comments about our bodies, criticizing how we look, how we act, well, sadly, thats who that candidate really is. Well, shes good. And with good reason, according to nbcs most recent Online Survey among women likely voters, a majority 52 said they support clinton compared to just 34 who say they support trump. Thats quite a spread. Down here in farmville, it will be up to both Vice President ial
candidates to make the hard sell for both of the people at the top of their tickets, obviously, theyre the big surrogates, the vp nominees. Governor mike pence will have the more challenging task, with of course, because after a bad week, some people say a horrible week for trump, it will be up to him to turn the battle against Hillary Clinton, and thats a challenge. Pence is strongly prolife, of course, and in 2015, passed a controversial religious freedom bill that gave stronger legal defenses to business ifs they refused to serve gay people. Anyway, heres how he described himself when he accepted the nomination for vp. Im a christian, a conservative, and a republican, in that order. Well, tim kaine, who during the 2012 senate election, carried 56 of women voters in virginia will have to defend his own complicated views on abortion. Whether hes personally prolife, but well get to that. For more, im joined by senator amy klobuchar, democrat from minnesota, and virginia governor, terry mcauliffe. Both are clinton supporters, bigtime
anyway, thank you. Thank you, governor. This is this is something okay, i really love this trip down here. Welcome to virginia. I love coming down here tonight. Great place. Farmville. Youre both, i know, besides being statespersons and men and women of the world who care about this country, youre also political tacticians and strategists. You know, what is lets try, youre both here supporting secretary clinton and tim kaine, whos a very likable guy. We all like tim kaine. But let me ask you, tell me about that battle between the two different personalities, mike pence and tim kaine. Size them up, as debaters, as personalities. First of all, both very strong. Ive known tim now for two decades. I have known governor pence for a long time. I served a as chairman of the National Governors association, he has a much harder deal tonight. Tim kaine talks about Hillary Clintons vision, build the middle class, getting people back to work. Mike pence tonight has to defend all of the things youve been talking about on this show. I think he has a much tougher
road tonight, to be able to have to defend all of the things can he pivot . Hes going to have a hard time pivoting. People want answers. Donald trump said all the following things. This is the ticket, how do you respond . Tim kaine can talk about the fivepoint plan of economic development, how we can move this country forward. Youre in virginia today. We are a swing state. We have been very strong for clinton and kaine now for months and months. Hillary has been up here for the last eight months, anywhere from 7 to 12 points. You say its a swing state, but its getting to be a democrat state, isnt it . Yeah. Twice for obama. When i won the governorship, i broke a 44year trend. I brought in with me my lieutenant governor. Democrats swept, and democrats now control all five statewides here in the commonwealth of virginia. Why, economic i Just Announced the other day, lowest Unemployment Rate of any major state in america. He knows it better than any of us know, women in this state. Going into virginia is packed with a lot of women who come to work in the washington area, a lot of them are single women,
they are very prochoice. And we have watched this with the doug Water Campaign and all the campaigns, women in virginia are prochoice, the state is prochoice. Is that going to be an issue tonight. I think it will be discussed. Because pence is very prolife. Pence has said he would want to overturn roe v. Wade. This will be part of the debate. I dont think its the only issue for women, though, chris, as you know. Women workers are twothirds of the minimum wage workers. And the fact that Hillary Clinton has been out there on increasing the minimum wage, on a strong work family leave policy, on a strong child care policy, a lot of women are focused on those, and thats why you see that, in addition to the debate performance, where after she answered every question for an hour and a half, he had the gall to look at the camera and look at her, and say, you dont have the stamina to be the president of the United States. Was that a dog whistle for you . I crescreamed at the tv. I yelled at the tv. I was thinking, are you what is wrong with you . Its the strangest word. You guys live longer than we do, you bear children, and anybody whos been through a childbirth all we can do is watch and you have babies. I dont know what this stamina thing is about. Let me ask you about young people. How many are millennials . How many, okay . They are millennials. Both candidates have had a hard time stirring these guys up. How do they do it . They have a month to do it. Look whats going on listen, everybody out here, they want a goodpaying job. Thats what they want. They own a great education system. Hillary has come out with her plan in a state school, if you make 125,000, you will get a higher education. This is what these folks out here all want. They want a goodpaying job, an avenue to success, why is Bernie Sanders all over the country, hes out there supporting Hillary Clinton because he knows that shes the right thing for this country and shes the right thing for millennials. Why do Millennials Vote for
gary johnson if they voted for brrnds . Thats what i cant understand. How can you go from socialist to libertarian . You handle this, senator. How can you go from socialist to libertarian . It makes no sense. I think Bernie Sanders in my home state today has a lot to do that. Hes out there talking about why the vote should be is hillary closer to socialist or libertarian . Who is she closer to . This is hardball. Come on. Whats she closer to . You dont want to answer . One more thing about the millennials, chris, they support each other and when you have a candidate in donald trump whos going after immigrants and wants to get rid of gay marriage and those sort of things, they respond to that. And whos promising Immigration Reform . Hillary clinton. Lets get it done. I think thats one thing thats got to get done. Anyway, thank you. Thank. Very popular figure here. Very popular governor. We spend every penny youve got here in virginia before you go across the potomac river, chris. Were going to the silver diner on the way home tomorrow. Thank you, senator amy klobuchar, a very popular person in the United States, and terry mcauliffe, whos some day going to rule the world. When we come back, all eyes on mike pence, after the bad week donald trump had, can pence dig him out . I think pence will go on offense tonight like youve never seen. He is a tough customer. Were about 90 minutes away from the start of this debate. By the way, middleweight fights are always much more exciting than heavyweight fights. Were live in Longwood University in virginia. Back more after this. As a businessman and real estate developer, i have legally used the tax laws to my benefit, and to the benefit of my company, my investors, and my employees. I mean, honestly, i have brilliantly i have brilliantly used those laws. The unfairness of the tax laws is unbelievable. Its something ive been talking about for a long time, despite, frankly, being a big beneficiary of the laws. But im working for you now. Im not working for trump. What a crowd we have here. What a crowd. Anyway, that was donald trump defending his tax laws. It was at a Campaign Stop yesterday in colorado. Trumps been playing defense on that lately, so will his running mate, mike pence tonight defend trumps troubles in the debate or instead hit at Hillary Clintons weak points . Hugh hewitt is a radio talk show host and an msnbc contributor and John Brabender is a strategist. John and hugh, ill go back to my point of view, critique me on this. The worst thing in the world that mike pence could do tonight is spending his hour and a half defending trump. Because trump may not be around in four or eight years, but Hillary Clinton will be. And she will always been the nemesis of the Republican Party. I think the smart move for him is attack hillary where he can, where shes justified, hit hard and harder again and again, relentlessly bringing the case against his credibility. Shes at 61 , unbelieved right now by the American People. Dont waste your time on machado or taxes, you wont gain an inch. But you can gain a lot on going after hillary. I think she cant spend the whole time saying, donald trump said this because. I think he has to give some
confidence of who donald trump really is from a first person perspective, but move the conversation to hillary. Shes got to make sort of the conviction or the prosecution of her, but hes got to do it in a tone and temperament different than donald trump has. He has to use facts and still come across as likable and believable, rather than by shouting or by rhetoric that where would you put the first punch, on her general lack of credibility, on the whole history starting in the early 90s of vague trouble. Always of the unending soap opera around the clintons, that seems to always be there. How do you do i think theres two things he should do. Number one is that. Theyre going to say, they gamed the system. Every chance they had, they gamed the system for personal benefit. Second of all, i think hes going to talk a lot about how shes been there for 24 years, we tried it her way. She likes to say shes tested, but hes going to say, she failed the test. How do you critique my suggestion you go on offense . 100 correct. She has to be the target of every single statement he makes tonight. Not senator kaine, not donald trump, but egypt, libya, syria, the server, the supreme court, the status of forces agreement she did not come up with. Donald trump today, double the pr premiums, half the coverage. Its his first speech in a president ial campaign. Whether its in 2020, or 2024, mike pence is going to run for president. He ought to bring up obamas bad sixword legacy as well, leading from behind, red line, and jvs. He has to hit those squares. Can he get the headline tomorrow . Can he come out, pence attacks clinton on credibility. If its, pence defends trump, i think thats a wash. I think you have to be careful tonight. I dont think this is the kind of debate where youll have dramatic headlines. I think what you can do, mike
pence is so likable and knowledgeable that he can do a better job than trump can, to create the real doubts of Hillary Clinton, and why they matter. Trump just sort of throws them out there and assumes people will know, i think mike pence is better at putting it in context, why people should be outraged about what Hillary Clinton has one thing he can do is build audience for sunday night. He needs to get trump to get back into the ring against Hillary Clinton with a reset. If you want change in this country, if you think were on the wrong direction, watch sunday night, a different donald trump is coming. Lets talk about how he handles the tricky stuff to get to the attack. The question was asked of kelly ayotte, the senator from new hampshire, do you want donald trump to be your kids role model. Theres an answer for that, in terms of guts taking on the establishment, yeah, in terms of guts. Nobodys perfect, but theres certain things the guy does represent. I dont like his marital history. What hell say is, ive
gotten to know druonald trump vy well, let me tell you what i do like about him, but let me tell you why i would be scared to death for them to turn out like Hillary Clinton. And this is the first president ial election history, where there the known knowns this is the first time we know the negatives about each of them. Every president ial debate, ive watched almost all of them, in fact, all of them, the winner is the person who attacks from a defensive position. There you go, carter attacking reagans record on medicare. Or its, whats his name, dan quayle saying hes jack kennedy. Every time you go on the offense, the other guy or woman has the chance to respond at that moment, that precise moment of attack, when the attackers most vulnerable and most committed nail them right in the nose. That whats Chris Christie did to marco rubio. Thats what you can do. But pence doesnt have to prove hes credible. I know. Im talking about, can you attack and hurt. Anyway, thank you, hugh hewitt, thank you, John Brabender. Both great guests on this
program. Up next, Hillary Clintons bringing out the heavy hitters. Shes taking no chances now that shes got the lead in the polls. Shes got the best surrogate team around. Plus, the hardball rules on how to win or lose a debate. Well get to that. What can mike pence and tim kaine learn from past vp debates . Youre watching hardball, a special edition, live from Longwood University where tonights Vice President ial debate. Pg e, this is jerris, how may i help you today . I help customers with their bills. Theres different rates to fit different needs,
so listening is a huge part of my job. Because customers want to know that you hear them. They have kids, they have families, they have priorities. I definitely understand that. I have three children, i was a stay at home mom, i didnt have money to pay the bills, and so i put myself in their shoes. And im going to do all that i can to lower their bills and to help their situation. To choose the rate plan that works best for your family, visit pge. Com rates. Together, were building a better california. When it comes to the qualifications that we should demand of our president , to start, we need someone who will take the job seriously. I think we can all agree that someone whos roaming around at 3 00 a. M. Tweeting should not have their fingers on the nuclear codes. You know, what an
accomplished platform speaker the first lady has become all these years. Welcome back to hardball, live at Longwood University for tonights Vice President ial debate. In fact, just about an hour and 20 minutes from now, its going to happen. And that was, of course, the fantastic first lady, Michelle Obama, on the campaign trail today in north carolina. Shes one of several highprofile candidates to hit the trail for Hillary Clinton in what amounts to be an impressive surrogate operation. Were looking at a bunch of them there. Keep in mind, of course, president obama, whos announced he plans to spend two days a week campaigning for clinton. And unlike george w. Bush in 2008, obamas Approval Rating is at 54 according to gallup, which means hes in a unique position to help secure a third consecutive timber for his party. Joining me, john heilemann, host of with all due respect. Megan murphy, Washington Bureau chief for bloomberg, and Jason Johnson politics editor at the
root. Youve been great on the show lately. Lets talk about the president. I cant think of a time since eisenhower back in 60 where a sitting president is this popular and can go out and throw his weight behind his apparentlys nominee. Look, he can sing, he can bring people out he can sing . Look, he sings. When obama gets in front of certain block audiences, he will sing. Hes al green. Hell have to put in this time to pull her over the finish lain. Bill clinton had a problem again today. First lady, what a surrogate. She sort of kept herself to herself. Shes never been a politician. She doesnt bang the drum for her party or her husband. Shes sort of like a movie star, you dont see much of her, but when you do, you pay attention. I think its a perfect analogy, and her use on the campaign trail shows how deeply personal they both feel this race is. They, feel its not only hillary
clinton, but but their legacy, as well. Whats personal for this besides her husbands legacy . Hes an anathema for everything they stood for. She doesnt like the birther stuff . She doesnt like the birther stuff, how he treats women, this is everything to them, it is personal. And i think Michelle Obama has proven, she would be almost the most effective surrogate Hillary Clinton has, particularly closing the gap with women. We have not seen an effective bigtime surrogate in our lifetime. A president with somebody running for governor. Here you have the president of the United States and a first lady with the firepower that might change. I think this month, youll see a lot of obama. I will say, Reggie Jackson is a good analogy. David ortiz may be a better analogy. An even better collection you want to explain that . David ortiz has become the
best clutch hitter, best october november player ever in baseball. But were going too far afield. Heres the thing, i think its forget about legacy and all that stuff. You cant glide past the birther thing. Donald trump was the face of the movement that tried to delegitimatize Barack Obamas presidency on racial grounds. They are both, as a couple, have been deeply offended and angered by that from the moment that it started. And so this is a thing of like, we dont want that guy to occupy this seat. Not just what he would do to our legislative accomplishments, its a deeply personal thing. Deeply personally. I have to ask you about who else wont matter. Does bill clinton count anymore in terms of this . He tries, but i dont know if hes got the i think when youre looking at this election im asking him. Dont dodge off of this. Is bill clinton an effective surrogate . I think shes got far more effective surrogates out there. Bill clinton still got it . He can still play in certain parts of the electorate. Where . Theyre sending him to a lot of places to hes going to spend most of his time going to
rural communities, going to places he says whos a better politician, him or her now . Hillary or bill . Whos better right now . Shes on an incredible wave up. Whos better. I think hes a better politician. Hes the best explainer surrogate shes got. He can get on stage and explain policy in 20 minutes. If he doesnt screw it up. What was he doing trashing obamacare. Because he doesnt like him. I dont think hes ever been that happy about this president. When you say double the premiums for people that are working 60 hours a week, thats not exactly applauded. No, its not. When we come back,ed t the hardball rules, how tim kaine or mike pence can win tonights debate. This is hardball, a special edition. Well be right back. When legalizing safe, responsible adult use of marijuana, the most important question is how . By voting yes on prop 64 adults 21 and over could only purchase marijuana at wbr id wbr28076 licensed marijuana businesses. And prop 64 bans advertising b
directed at kids. Requires strict product labeling. Childproof packaging. And bans edibles that appeal to children. Smart provisions to safeguard our families. Learn more about the safeguards at wbrid wbr28376 yeson64. Org. Let me just say, first of all, that i almost resent Vice President bush, your patronizing attitude, that you have to teach me about foreign policy. Who am i . Why am i here . Senator, youre no jack kennedy. Tough moments. Welcome back. Those were some unforgettable and awfully nasty moments from past Vice President ial debates. And over the past two weeks, weve covered the hardball
rules for how to win or lose a president ial debate. Well, tonight we have some new advice for the Vice President ial candidates before tonights facetoface showdown. Heres what weve learned over the years. Number one, do no harm. Vice president ial candidates must protect the candidate at the top of the ticket. That means they need to avoid creating a side show, that might distract from the campaigns message. Back in 1976, then senator bob dole famously ignored that advice when he blamed democrats for the wars of the 20th century. Not only did he give his opponent, walter mondale, an opening to counterattack, it also put the campaign on the defensive for a couple of weeks. Lets watch. Its not a very good issue, anymore than the war in vietnam would be or world war ii or world war i or the war in korea. All democrat wars, all in this century. I figured it up the other day. If we added up the killed and
wounded, and democrat wars in this century, it would be about 1. 6 million americans, enough to fill the city of detroit. Does he really mean to suggest to the American People that there was a partisan difference over our involvement in the war to fight nazi germany . Well, actually, nazi germany declared war on us after pearl harbor. Lets get straight that. Anyway, clearly, mondale had an easy opening there, dole gave it to him. When you screw up that bad and the other person is waiting, its kind of like, sarah palin, 2008, can i all you joe, so you could set up well get to that. Youve got to make sure that your main goal is promoting your candidate. Youre the side show, not the main event. And dont forget about the empire of japan after they attacked us. Debate rule number two, be disarming with your opponent, showing a little civility can make your arguments more persuasive, especially since Vice President ial candidates
arent as wellknown as the person at the top of the ticket. Youre introducing yourself on a night like this. In 2008, sarah palin familiousl asked permission to use joe bidensbidens first name and showcased that kind of folksy charm throughout the debate. Here she is, sarah palin. Nice to meet you. Can i call you joe . Thank you. Say it aint so, joe, there you go pointing backwards again, though. You prefaced your whole comment with the bush administration. Doggoneit, look ahead and tell americans what we plan to do for them in the future. Al gore was similarly disarming with his opponent jack kemp at the start of the 96 vp debate. Id like to start by offering you a deal, jack. If you wont use any football stories, i wont tell any of my warm and humorous stories about chlorofluorocarbon abatement. Its a deal. I cant even pronounce it. Well, that was a bit set up. Talk about natural i think that seemed funnier at the time than it does now. Tried to look warmer. This is tricky for governor pence, because one of his big missions tonight is he didnt hit out of benghazi and the things that hillary is vulnerable on. Go tough. Go tough. Be disarming and tough. Its not as easy. Hes got a big challenge. How will pence thread that needle be tough because hes got to carry the fight. I think hes got to be aggressive. Hes going to be out so many times by kaine in places where hes in opposition for donald trump to answer for trumps mistakes. Pence will try to do the quick pivot out of everything. I think hes smart enough to do it. But he has to fight on many
fronts. Debate rule number three, dont get personal. In an attempt to explode thenVice President s dick cheneys division on gay rights, john edwards decided to invoke the Sexual Orientation of cheneys daughter. Lynne chauny later called it a low blow. I think the Vice President and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you cant have anything but respect for the fact that theyre willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter, the fact that they embrace her. Its a wonderful thing. Mr. Vice president , you have 90 seconds. Gwen, let me simply thank the senator for the kind words he said about my family and our daughter. I appreciate that very much. Youre welcome. Thats it. Thats it. Well, how do you the read cheney . Thats the first time and maybe
the last i saw janie sigh. Thats when cheney first got the idea for water boarding right there. That split screen told you everything. On to the next question. He was like keep my daughters name out of your mouth. You dont have to go there. John edwards had plenty of things to criticize bush about. I wonder who on the staff said, great idea, go for the daughter. Praise em before you hit em. President bill clinton knew any attacks the on bob doles age could backfire. So he deftly took the issue off the table before going for the jugular. Here is clinton at his best or you may say nastiest. I can only tell you that i dont think senator dole is too old to be president. Its the age of his ideas that i question. Youre almost not old enough to remember this, but we tried this
before. Promising people an Election Year tax cut thats not paid for. That was very nixonian, because he got the shout in about his age, but then i dont really mean to do that, but im going after his ideas. Dole gave the scour. These guys have sharp, sharp policy contrasts. If we want to keep this debate away from the personal how do you put the sugar into that mix . Stick it to the guy for being an then you say the problem is both these guys believe in what theyre doing. Hard to stick them on lots of things. It will be a policy debate. I dont think it will be that nice. Can you get that sugary and get away with it . No. Just over an hour to go before the start of the Vice President ial debate. There is mike pence in that group going into the debate center. Hes the first guy in the row there, second guy. But its all happening. Were back with the roundtable as we get ready for this debate. Tell me something i dont know, megan murphy. Our tell you something rnc already knows pence won the debate. Theyve released their post debate spin saying that governor pence did a great job hitting on hillary scandals and the economy. What i thought he was going to do, hes done. Hes the clear winner. How do they keep making these
mistakes. Im not sure how many virginians know this, but tim kaine has a weird thing in his head, like a reverse dyslexic. If you say any word to him, he can say it backwards to him immediately. If you say kaine, its eniak. He can do anything. If theres silent letters. He had has a hard time with things like pneumonia. I tried that on him once. A great party trick. I can do alliteration like that, but not like that. All the great surrogates Hillary Clinton has. Bill clinton, barack obama. She now has kermit the frog, now online as a brandnew meme supporting Hillary Clinton. People on the left have been using him to counter trumps pepe le frog on the left. That does it for this special edition of hardball