Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Katy Tur 20201113

The u. S. Broke its record again for the highest oneday total of new covid19 cases yesterday. More than 150,000 americans have tested positive for the virus. That is 150,000 people in just one day. And the spread is happening everywhere. Bipartisan governors across the country are being blunt about the road ahead and urging people not to get complacent. Our Health Care Workers are quite frankly exhausted. Theyve been running a marathon for nine straight months. And with this new wave and the onset of flu season its like theyre starting the race all over again. The staff in the hospitals are exhausted. Emergency rooms are overflowing. And Staff Shortages are becoming a real issue. Again, were at the breaking point. And ready to have some serious repercussions because of that challenge. You know whats really uncomfortable and annoying . When you die. Thats my answer. And this is not a forever and for always. Reluctant to rely on the Trump Administrations help, the biden covid Advisory Board says it is developing its own plan to develop a potential vaccine next year. Im going to speak to a member of that Advisory Board in just a moment. And as biden prepares, we are finally going to hear from donald trump later this afternoon. He has not addressed the public in over a week. Nbc news estimates nearly 1 million americans have contracted the virus and more than 7,500 have died since we last heard from the current president. On the campaign trail mr. Trump claimed the worry about covid would disappear on november 4th. That the stayathome orders, the social distancing and Wearing Masks would all go away after the election because they were a democratic ploy to keep him from winning. They have not gone away. As you just heard from bipartisan leaders who are urging everybody to take it seriously. And now more news further underscoring the president s disregard for science and Public Health. The Washington Post reports more than 130 secret Service Officers are said to be either infected with covid19 or quarantining due to exposure, mainly stemming from the president s preelection rallies. Joining me now from chicago is nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez. Also with me, msnbc medical contributor and assistant professor at the institute for Health Metrics and evaluation dr. Vin gupta. So gabe, yesterday we heard from Lori Lightfoot talking about new advisory restrictions on the city of chicago. What more have we learned today . Reporter adds you mentioned its a stayathome advisory be a stayathome order. We have seen a steady stream of cars coming behind me at a drivethru testing site set up here right in the heart of downtown chicago. Weve heard many ambulance coming through here. Hospitals, as you know, are very full here in illinois. But today we also learned that suburban areas here in cook in cook county are also imposing that stayathome advisory over the next 30 days. What officials here want is for people to limit nonessential travel outside their homes. Theyre also asking people to limit private gatherings to less than ten people including even during thanksgiving. Earlier today mayor lightfoot explained her rationale on msnbc. Take a listen. Were really urging folks like in the spring to really restrict their activities outside their home. Obviously if youve got to go to work, got to go to school, youve got to get medical supplies or groceries, we know that one of the Biggest Challenges that we face now, which is different than in the spring, is the spread in private places. In homes, event spaces. People are still having gatherings like weddings of course and funerals. But also theres a contingent in the city that dont understand that you cant party like it was february. Were in the middle of a pandemic. Reporter so katy, as you heard there, youre hearing from the mayor that youre seeing the Biggest Community spread in private spaces and that is leading to major pushback from Business Leaders here in chicago. Many Restaurant Owners are saying that theyre being unfairly targeted. They think this could be the death of the Restaurant Industry Going Forward. As these restrictions keep stretching on potentially into the weeks and months. So certainly a lot of people wondering how much impact these restrictions will have given the fact mayor lightfoot started to impose some of these new restrictions on businesses last month. It clearly has not stopped the spread here. More than 12,000 cases, new covid cases so far this week in chicago, and deaths have tripled here over the last month. Katy . Gabe, thank you. Dr. Gupta, is there a workaround where we can allow businesses like restaurants which are tricky because youre take off your mask, to stay open . If it is just the spread is happening in these smaller gatherings, is there a way to get enough surveillance, enough visibility on this spread so that were not going to crater the economy all over again . Good afternoon, katy. Its a vital question. I think it comes back to the issue of where are people dining when theyre dining in . Is it in an indoor seat in a restaurant that might have 25 capacity or are there outdoor tables . And so in seattle ive seen a lot of different innovations that restaurants have employed. The same things happening in new york. To make sure people are warm when theyre dining outside. Making reservations possible outside. I do think that remains a possibility. Data was published reported on yesterday suggesting that the majority of transmission that is occurring is happening in places like restaurants and classrooms but indoors. So ventilation remains an important driver here, an important variable. If you can account for that, if you can have outdoor gatherings, small, keeping it to, say, minimizing the number of people youre actually engaging with that you dont live with, thats vital. But doing so outdoors is really the only way here. I know its tough. Thats the only workaround. Theres also some news coming out of north dakota that they are so shortstaffed, theyre so stretched when it comes to the Health Care Workers who are now picking it up not just in the hospital but picking it up in the community, that there has been an order from the state allowing asymptomatic Health Care Workers who have the disease but are asymptomatic to continue to treat other covid19 patients. This is from an article that nbc news wrote. What about the bathrooms and the break rooms and the elevators and all of those spaces . How are we going to keep those things clean . Its not realistic. Tessa johnson, whos the president of north Dakota Nurses Association said. Theres concern among these Health Care Workers that fine, youre not going to pass it on to the patient. But what about the rest of us . You know, so this is an important point that youre raising. Lets remember, back in march, april, in the early part of the pandemic when there wasnt even enough testing or ppe, Health Care Workers that were chronically getting exposed to covid19 because they were caring for these very sick patients with covid19, we wouldnt get tested unless the guidelines said from the cdc, unless we had symptoms. So were harkening back now to marchapril here, where were still in a testingconstrained environment. Ppe, theres only 115 million 115 million n95 masks in the Strategic National stockpile. 300 million we believed we needed at this point. Its a dangerous situation. Its evocative of the spring. Its very scary. And very scary to know that we are in the same place. Dr. Vin gupta, thank you so much for joining us. Gabe gutierrez, thank you for joining us as well. Joining me from delaware is political reporter ali vitali. The biden team is trying to make it clear they want this to be the forefront of their transition, its what theyre going to try and tackle on day one. What are you hearing about the plans theyre trying to put in place as they work around this delayed transition . Reporter well, thats the thing, katy, is now theyre being forced to work around the transition because theyre not getting access on the agency level to the kinds of information they need in order to make this transition seamless. And when youre trying to make a seamless transition to end of january when they could potentially be trying to mass disseminate a vaccine those are the conversations and the planning thats happening in certain parts of health and Human Services right now. And so the biden transition team, newly minted chief of staff ron klain spoke to this last night when he appeared on msnbc, and weve also heard from other transition officials since then who say they are now kind of contingent planning for the fact it has not been a smooth transition yet. Doctors close to the transition are now figuring out their own plan for mass dissemination so theyre not caught flatfooted and underprepared when they are inaugurated at the end of january on this virus. That includes talking to key pharmacies like walgreens and cvs, making sure they have the staffing and the supplies that they would need to potentially vaccinate millions of people. And it also includes conversations with pfizer, the company that has the vaccine that is closest at this point to being ready for public dissemination. We know that that vaccine needs to be kept at subzero temperatures and making sure that the pharmacies have that technology to store the vaccine the way it needs to be stored so it can be effective. Thats all part of this planning process. Its why you have a transition. And just now this afternoon we had a phone call with top transition officials who said that while its disruptive that biden and harris are not getting their president ial Daily Briefing they think that all of this disruptive information flow could eventually contribute to increased National Security problems. Those are the reasons why a transition is in place, to stop potential National Security issues from arising. But now because the General Services administration has yet to ascertain or certify joe biden as president elect of the United States this is the state were in. And listen, covid19 is a National Security issue. And its great to have a vaccine and were all hoping that it comes online soon. But if the logistics are not in place it doesnt matter what you have. You cant distribute it, a vaccine is worthless. Ali vitali. Thank you so much. With me now is a member of bidens covid19 Advisory Board, dr. Celine gounder. Shes an Infectious Disease specialist and an epidemiologist. Dr. Gounder, thanks so much for joining us. I want to put the vaccine aside for now because right now were seeing a lot of spread and a lot of not shutdowns but a lot of nervousness about new restrictions across the country. We are eight months into this pandemic and theres no National Testing strategy. Were still seeing incredibly long lines for testing. And theres worry if there is so much out there the testing backups going to create a problem in itself. Were also seeing a shortage of ppe. How is the biden Advisory Team trying to tackle those two issues for january 20th . I think one of the First Executive actions that president elect biden will not taking is invoking the defense production act. This is something on the front lines we as clinicians and Public Health workers have been pleading with the Current Administration to do for months now. Whether its to produce personal protective equipment, to produce more testing, testingrelated supplies. So thats really going to be a key component here. Because we are still very much in a scarcity rationing mode with respect to all of those key components. So getting a National Testing strategy in place, is it just as easy as invoking the defense production act . It seems pretty simple. And if its so simple its kind of confusing why we havent done it up until now. Well, its sort of parallel to the conversation you were just having with respect to vaccines. Its not enough just to have a vaccine. Its not enough just to have the supplies. And the tests. You certainly have to scale up staffing. Theres a plan to have a massive hiring of Public Health workers under the bidenharris plan. 100,000 Public Health workers, which is really crucial because weve lost about 50,000 Public Health workers since the 20082009 recession. Some of that through layoffs. Some of that through people who retired or left their jobs and were not replaced. We really this is a time, an opportunity to rebuild that infrastructure, to rebuild better and stronger. And were also going to have to scale up how we approach testing. Not just people who have symptoms. But if we really want to understand how the disease is transmitted in the community that means we need to pick up those asymptomatic people. People who do not have symptoms in order to control spread. Quick question. And this is on everybodys mind. Is there a way to straddle the line between controlling this virus and not cratering the economy . Well, weve learned a lot since the spring. So in the spring we had very coarse measures so to speak, not very targeted with the shutdowns and lockdowns. And thats whatnot were talking about anymore. So you can think of control of coronavirus, 1. 0 from the spring was like a light switch that turns on and off. And now were in 2. 0, which is a dimmer switch where you can be much more targeted about what youre closing down and what geographic areas. I think new york citys actually a great example of this. When we hay surge in cases over the last couple of months we targeted by zip code. And we beefed up our testing and Contact Tracing in those neighborhoods by zip code to control the spread. So i think if you test, if you understand how the disease is spreading, by whom, where, why this is happening, you can be much more targeted and have less of an Economic Impact as a result. Its all about visibility in testing. Dr. Celine gounder, thank you so much for joining us. And we have some breaking news. Nbc news is now ready to make a couple calls. Lets start with the first. In the state of georgia, where there is currently a hand recount being done, joe biden is the apparent winner. Again, joe biden the apparent winner in georgia. We use the word apparent when results could change such as in a recount. Although its not expected that donald trump is going to make up that deficit in georgia. Also, in the state of north carolina, another state that we have been waiting on, we can now say that donald trump is the winner of north carolina. The projected winner of north carolina. This gives donald trump 15 electoral votes. But joe biden is still well in the lead in the Electoral College and is now president elect and has been so since pennsylvania was called. Biden with 306 electoral votes. Donald trump with 232 if everything remains as it is right now. That will be the outcome of the election. 306 to 232. Joe biden taking over the sun belt, arizona, and getting georgia. Quite a remarkable thing for a democrat. Still ahead, a state where deaths are up a staggering 60 in just two weeks. Joe bidens going to have a lot to come into on january 20th. Im going to talk to a doctor there on the front lines. And later, john bolton, the president s former National Security adviser, what he says about the president s refusal to concede and refusal to allow the biden Team Critical National Security information. Is the president putting the nation at risk . First up, though, joe biden flips arizona. A state that has not gone blue since 1996. Vaughn hilliard will have his new interview with cindy mccain on the results and her role in it. I do believe that perhaps in some ways weve lost our way and weve lost our way in that were not always putting country first. betsy quarter mile of tinsel. harold and real snow all the way from switzerland. betsy hmmhm. Gonna be tough to top. betsy well played. vo add some thrill to your wish list. At the season of audi sales event. Get exceptional offers now. Look limu someone out there needs help customizing their Car Insurance with liberty mutual, so they only pay for what they need. False alarm. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. For the first time in 24 years arizona has voted for a democrat to be president. Nbc news can now project that president elect joe biden has flipped the state, giving biden at least 290 Electoral College votes, although it looks like now that numbers actually 306. Its just been updated in the past couple minutes. As nbc news has called georgia for joe biden as the apparent winner of georgia. Joining me now from arizona is nbc news political reporter vaughn hilliard. Vaughn, sometimes the news moves so fast that we dont have time to update the scripts. This is one of those situations. We have been waiting on arizona. And arizona was is a big deal for the democrats, who spent a lot of time there and have been hoping to flip now for many years. Theyve set their sights on that state. The demographics would be in their favor. You talked to cindy mccain. And its interesting because although the aleeno vote didnt break heavily for joe biden across the country what did break heavily for joe biden in arizona was maricopa county. How much did cindy mccain have to do with that . Reporter you know, we can make the case that cindy mccain was one of those very voters that changed this election. Or senator jeff flake, the former republican senator, who also like cindy mccain cut a closing week ad for the joe biden campaign. When you look at maricopa county, donald trump in 2016 won it by about 45,000 votes. This goaround . Joe biden won it by 45,000 votes. And that is where you saw this electorate swing in such an incredible way that i think is defining because yes, when you look at georgia and arizona sure, did joe biden need them on the electoral map . No. But these are the states where republicans are concerned Going Forward. Because if there is a willingness to not only vote for joe biden for president here but also elect two democrats to the u. S. Senate out of arizona there is longterm problems here. This is a place that mitt romney won in 2012 by 10 Percentage Points and then john mccain in his own reelection bid for the senate won it by 13 points in 2016. But this is no longer the Republican Party of john mccain or mitt romney, its that of donald trump. And where does this party go from here . Listen to part of my conversation with cindy mccain. The reason that joe biden won was because people were looking for something else. They were looking for civility. They were looking for empathy, compassion, a leader that would listen to them and care about them. Myself and many other people have made a difference in this race. I hope if nothing more i encourage women especially, republican women, to step outside their comfort zone and vote for a democrat. Reporter civility and compassion, katy. This is about independents, moderates, even conservatives who willingly voted for democrats here in arizona. The question is is this a Democratic State Going Forward or does the Republican Party try regain what it once was here in this state . Katy . You know donald trump got away with attacking john mccain back in 2015. Among the republicans at least. And winning the election. But after john mccains death and after he continued to go after him, a war hero who was in the grave, the president continued to attack him, it seems like theres a lot of americans out there including a lot of those in arizona who had just had enough. Vaughn hilliard. Vaughn, thank you so much. And in a direct rebuttal to Donald Trumps claims of Election Fraud the nations top Elections Security agency says the 2020 election was the most secure in american history. The results are clear, says one former kentucky elections director. Republican james young wrote, it infuriates me knowing the ingts integrity of these Public Servants are being called into question. Election administrators are heroes, not partisan actors. Having been on both sides, i cant stress enough how proud you should be of these individuals. Joining me now is james young, a Republican Former elections director from kentucky. James, thank you for being with us. You caught our attention on twitter yesterday when you posted a number of tweets talking about the elections workers that youve met over the years as youve gone on and advised election workers and poll workers about how to pull off a successful election. What is your message to people who are questioning the results . My first, thanks for having me. I want to say election officers, Election Officials are these Election Administrators, regardless of your state, they can be your probate judge, your circuit or county clerk, they could be a registrar, these are the people that we should be trusting right now. These are the best of us in our communities. These are sunday school teachers. These are deacons. These are people who spend more Time Training poll workers and this year especially trying to pull off a primarily mailbased election besides election day during a neverbeforeseen pandemic. These people should be applauded. And these are people who have spent their career with their integrity intact. And im confident in their ability. Why do you think theyre being targeted . Why do you think poll workers and Election Officials are being targeted for fraud . I think at times its very easy. As ive said, i am a registered republican. That may not necessarily be popular with half of the people i work with. However, thats the point, is the people that are Election Administrators who have these roles are not partisan people. Im sure there were some individuals out there who believe that they administer elections through a republican or a democrat eye. The truth is is these people are the exact types of people that you should hope for. We have an entire history in this country of very positive productivity from our Election Administrators. The system works. Its working this year. And if you ever have any questions about the process for anyone who might think the fix is in or what can i do, what you should do is call these election offices. You should not the political parties. You should call the Election Administrators and you should say how can i help . What are the facts . Can i be a poll worker . And then you will learn firsthand as being a part of the process that just exactly how Election Administration is run and just what good people your neighbors, the person you sit next to in choir at church are also doing the same thing. Fortunately, we have an amazing set of election poll workers and ethical, honest Election Administrators all across the country. And you should be proud of that. Are you surprised that Republican Leaders are leading the charge in saying that there was fraud . In your state attorney general Daniel Cameron has joined the president s crusade against the election, saying that there are serious questions. Hes challenging pennsylvanias mailin ballots. Its a great question. I know daniel personally. Weve actually worked together on a board of elections in the past. Daniels a great guy. Hes a very intelligent guy. Daniel is also in a position where politics does play a role at times. Especially when elections are involved. I know daniel to be an ethical person. What i do know is Election Administrators are absolutely the most honest, trustworthy and dependable people. They spend more time administering elections than they do with their own friends and family. And again, i cant say it enough positive things about the people in these roles and you should trust them as well. James young. James, thank you for joining us and thanks for posting that online. Im glad you put faces to the people that are working its very important. Behind the scenes here to make sure we can pull off an election in the middle of a pandemic. They have done a heroic job. James, thank you so much. Thank you. And cases, hospitalizations and deaths are spiking across the country. No state, no county, no city is being spared. Im going to talk to a doctor who says his state is at its breaking point. First, the president is breaking his silence. Were going to hear from him today as he addresses the public for the first time in a week. Fik at dell technologies, we started by making the cloud easier to manage. But we didnt stop there. We made a cloud flexible enough to adapt to any size business. No matter what it does, or how it changes. And we kept going. So you only pay for what you use. Because at dell technologies, we stop. At nothing. As weve been reporting, nbc news is projecting that joe biden is the apparent winner in georgia. We say apparent because the results are close enough that the outcome may depend on the hand recount that is now under way. Joining us now is nbcs Shaquille Brewster in Gwinnett County with the latest. The hand count is going on. There was just an election supervisor that spoke. Whats the update . Reporter the update is that here in Gwinnett County they are moving at a good pace. Hes not giving a projection of when they will complete this auditing thats going on right now, this retallying of votes, but he says things are moving at a good pace and that they would have a better idea once they get through today. Ill let you see whats going on behind me right now as the Election Officials are auditors are going through. You see the different teams. Two people to a table. Theyre going through the ballots. One by one. Each individual ballot seeing what the voter what selection the voter made and then stacking it in a pile corresponding with the candidate. Here in Gwinnett County they say based on the numbers that they get through today, the pace of the recount, that will determine when they think they will be able to wrap up. The secretary of States Office says that deadline is wednesday at midnight. The state certification deadline is november 20th, just two days later. Ill tell you, in fulton county, which is georgias largest county, we heard from Election Officials earlier today and they said in that county theyll be starting this process tomorrow. They believe they will be able to get through the entire process, this audit process and by hand, counting these ballots. They think that theyll be able to get through it by monday. Weve seen timelines shift in this state. Take that with a grain of salt. But that is whats going on, this hand recount of nearly 5 million votes all across the state. More than 400,000 in this county alone. Katy . And again, nbc news projects that joe biden is the apparent winner down there in georgia. Were going to be watching that hand count. Shaq, thanks so much. The white house Just Announced President Trumps first postelection comments on covid for later today. He and Vice President pence are expected in the rose garden in about 90 minutes. Theyre apparently going to talk about operation warp speed. But to show you exactly where trumps public focus has been, yesterday alone he tweeted nearly 50 times, mostly about the election and fox news. Not a single tweet about spiking coronavirus cases or the americans that it has killed. Joining me now is Los Angeles Times White House Reporter eli stokols. So eli, is this penetrating the president s orbit . Is this penetrating the oval office, the severity of this crisis and how its getting worse and worse . Its unclear. We know that the president over the last several days hes been out of sight has been consuming a whole lot of news on television. So he may have heard something about this. He had a briefing earlier today about operation warp speed, the push to get a vaccine, and he may be coming out this afternoon and looking for a way to spin this in a positive way and to claim some credit for the government assisting the pharmaceutical industry in trying to get a vaccine for the coronavirus expedited and moved along quickly. Thats been sort of the approach from this president the entire time with the virus, is looking at it through a political lens and really trying to spin the numbers positively and to take credit for the positive things while being rather dismissive of the grim realities with the caseloads, the death total, all of those things as youre familiar with. I talked to some folks who have been talking with the president in recent days and one person said you know, hes gotten even less interested. He wasnt that interested in the coronavirus before, and now that the election is over hes only really concerned with it as how it would impact the election. Now that the election is over the person said he really couldnt care less. But he may be coming out today trying to project to the country that one, he is doing something about it and that its something positive. Well, the election is over. Any idea on when hes going to accept the results or where things stand on whether hes going to accept the results . The people who talked to him privately say he does know hes going to have to leave in january because theyre already talking about does he announce really quickly a run in 2024, his attacks on fox show that hes very much considering some sort of play in the conservative media space. So he is contemplating a life postpresidency. But he just is unlikely to ever admit it publicly because its so devastating to have lost to the selfcaricature that he has put out there for the countrys mass consumption for the last four or five decades. This is not a person who loses. Theyre going to continue to talk about conspiracy theories, to explain away the loss. But people inside this white house, the more realistic folks there, believe that he may once some of these final states are certified and these election challenges fail start to talk more clearly about actually leaving the white house in january. As anybody whos ever covered this president knows, his greatest fear is, one, looking weak and two, losing. Both of those things would come into play with having lost this election to joe biden, who he constantly called weak. Eli stokols. Eli, thanks so much. Good to see you. And joining me now is former Trump Administration National Security adviser john bolton. In his most recent Washington Post oped he says time is running out for trump and republicans who coddle him. Ambassador bolton, thank you very much for joining us. As somebody who has been inside the National Security apparatus at high levels including in this last administration, tell me, tell our audience what the risks are of the president refusing to allow a transition of power, refusing to allow biden the National Security materials he needs to make sure he has his team in place and ready to go on day one. Well, i think the mistake thats being made right now is not just access to the president s daily brief or intelligence materials. I think its failing to put the entire transition process into effect. We have a large, extraordinarily complicated government with a lot of sensitive matters involved, especially in National Security. And it takes a long time really to get ready. It takes time to put together the new administrations teams, to select cabinet secretaries, white house officials, the subcabinet officials, for them to be briefed in to get ready for the Senate Confirmation process. And i think we saw the effect of not proceeding expeditiously in the 2000 election, when for 37 days the bush team was effectively barred from access to government facilities and personnel and information. And that was potentially dangerous as the 9 11 commission pointed out. The fact is we need to relook at the president ial transition act, what a prudent president would do at this point is to say i havent given up on my claims that ive won however delusional we think they are, but it is responsible on behalf of the American People to prepare in this case the opposition candidate for the contingency that he may win. Let the full transition process proceed. It does not imply legitimacy or agreement with bidens claim that hes won the presidency, but just allow them to get ready. Thats good for the American People. Its not harmful to donald trump. Although thats the way he apparently sees it. Well, as somebody whos been in the room, is there anybody in his orbit that could tell him to do that, to start taking it seriously for the sake of americans and the country, or is he just so stubborn that he doesnt care about that . Well, the interest that donald trump is pursuing is quite clear, and thats donald trump. And thats why i think that its important for republicans, for the sake of the country but also just to be purely political about it, for the sake of the Republican Party, to say we dont think that ignoring reality this way is helping the country or helping the Republican Party. Trump will leave the white house on january the 20th, and his influence will diminish as a consequence. Its a mistake to think that his influence on january the 21st will be the same as it is today. It will not. Im not saying hes going to disappear entirely. That would be unnatural. But its going to be very different. And republicans ought not fear separating themselves from the president. And many now are. Many have called for access for biden to the pdb. More are calling for a full transition to begin. I just think thats the way people who look responsibly out for the good of the country should be talking right now. Ambassador, i want to ask you about this. Nbcs ken dilanian is reporting following reporting from the New York Times that there are concerns that donald trump could give up russian spy secret sources or methods. Let me read from this piece. There are also worries about whether the Trump Administration will spill state secrets. There have been called to declassify more material related to the russia investigation despite qualms by some intelligence officials that doing so could compromise sources and methods. I was speaking with congressman jim himes whos on the Intelligence Committee yesterday and he was saying he has a good idea of what the president wants to release and he worries that its the sort of thing that could get people who are helping the United States understand the inner circle Vladimir Putins inner circle could help these people, or help Vladimir Putin put a bullet in some peoples heads. He was that blunt about it. As someone whos seen a lot of the materials that most of us have not seen, whats your take on that . Well, i dont i wouldnt necessarily put it that bluntly. There are actually some sources and methods that are even more sensitive than human intelligence, much more important. But i have little doubt that what is on trumps agenda is the further vindication of donald trump in his mind. And if that means compromising sources and methods, i think that rates very low in his calculus. I do think its one possible explanation, and there are several, for the totally unjustified firing of defense secretary mark esper and many others at the Defense Department with perhaps more to come. It may or may not have something to do with firings that have taken place at Homeland Security with more rumored. And it may have something to do with the rumors that fbi director chris wray is in jeopardy and cia director gina haspel also in jeopardy. I think its clear many from inside the Intelligence Community are pushing back against the director of National Intelligence ratcliffe, whos operating at the direction of trump to release this information, and their resistance may well cost them their job, including paul nakasoni, the director of nsa. So i think its very hard to know exactly whats going on obviously from the outside but there shouldnt be any mistake that what donald trump is doing, as always, is pursuing his own personal interest. Theres real concern about the firings you just mentioned. And as today is friday, theres real concern that it might happen today. Ambassador john bolton, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it. And coming up, when lies and disinformation reign. And speaking of lies, a frontline doctor says he is at his wits end not only battling the virus but also the dangerous misinformation surrounding it. He joins us next. mom vo over the years, we trusted it to carry and protect the things that were most important to us. mom good boy. Remember this . mom vo we always knew we had a lot of life ahead of us. mom cmon. Hi mom vo thats why we chose a car that we knew would be there for us through it all. male vo welcome to the subaru forester. female vo get 0 apr financing for 63 months on select new 2020 models, now through november 30th. [ engine rumbling ] [ beeping ] [ engine revs ] uh, you know theres a 30minute limit, right . Tell that to the rain. [ beeping ] for those who were born to ride, theres progressive. Hospitals in utah are at their breaking point with cases climbing some hospitals in the state have no icu beds left. And doctors say they are battling a threat beyond the virus itself public fatigue after eight months of the pandemic. At a moment where were just at a health care crisis, seeing young people in our community go out to bars and socialize without masks, without social distancing is infuriating. Joining me now is dr. Todd vento. Hes an Infectious Disease physician with Intermountain Health care. Hi, dr. Bento. Thank you so much for joining us. You say your state is at a breaking point, there are no icu beds left. Whats going to happen when you need more icu beds, when more people get sick as the spike is continuing to rise . I think this concept that people always think of is were going to need a bigger boat. Were going to need fewer passengers is what it gets down to. We cant keep building a bigger boat. And what i mean by that is weve already done things like change certain units to become icu that were previously not icu. Weve moved patients from some hospitals to other hospitals to accommodate the increasing numbers of Covid Patients that are coming in. So those are the first things that weve already done. To put it bluntly, whats going to happen next is if we get to the point where we cant take care of individuals for the needs that they have, even though weve done a great job so far and have had high quality and low death rates, the reality is were going to have to start doing whats called crisis standards of care, which means we cant provide the same standard of care that weve provided before because we can only provide it to folks that we know that we can put resources into that can actually recover. And thats essentially what people think of as rationing care, et cetera. But there is a formal term of crisis standards of care, which no one wants to get to obviously. People reacted in horror as italy had to do that in the throes of this crisis. Can you believe its happening here eight months in after all that we know . No, its extremely frustrating. Its beyond that. Its demoralizing. I think its clear our nurses, our doctors, our respiratory therapists throughout the entire levels of the Health Care System are just beyond frustrated. This concept of saying were so grateful for what the Health Care Workers do. The greatitude is to wear masks. I have colleagues in italy we spoke with early on. Its very devastating to them to watch it come on and even had stated that they were treating it like normal flu and didnt change practices like evening walks and things like that and they became overwhelmed. To your question, i am amazed ten months later and were in the same position almost. What are the false beliefs youre having to deal with among folks in utah . What do they believe about this virus thats just wrong . I dont know that its unique to utah. Its just human nature. If you did a study on the stages of behavioral change and why people believe or dont believe this entire spectrum of beliefs from maybe someone saying it done exist and the doctors are telling you lies, which we cant even probably begin to change that to people not being aware that its a condition that actually can be asymptomatic and they dont know they have it and they dont feel what others have felt. Oh, well, its a low death rate. Its not happened to us, and so they continue to gather with extended family members, which is where were seeing increased transmission and why weve asked them to just gather with folks in your immediate household. So theres the range of not understanding and not being educated, not believing,dis information of outspoken individuals and i think that corrupts the entire community. Dr. Todd vento, thank you for joining us and good luck. I hope that people, not just in utah but across the country start getting the message because this is bad and its only getting worse. Thanks for being with us. And on the topic of misinformation and disinformation and lies conservatives and rightwing media have enabled Donald Trumps denial about the outcome of the election. It is a phenomenon Charlie Sykes saw coming. Over time we conceded, the conservative media, succeeded in delegitimizing the media altogether. All the normal guide posts were down, the referees discredited. That left a void that we conservatives failed to fill. For years we ignored the birthers, the racists, the truthers and other conspiracy ne theorists, secret muslim plot to subvert christiandom on peddle tales of mrs. Clintons murder victims rather than confront the purveyveyors of such disinforman because they were our allies whose quirks could be allowed or destroyed. We empower the worst and most reckless voices on the right. This was not mere naivete, it was a moral failure, one that now lies at the heart of the conservative movement. Joining me now is Charlie Sykes, the editoratlarge of the bulwark and an msnbc contributor. I know we touched on this briefly as i was filling in for nicole yesterday. This oped you wrote back in 2016. I think about it all the time. All the time, because we are constantly dealing with disinformation, with lies about everything from the pandemic and how its not that serious and you shouldnt wear a mask and now to the results of the election when it looks like or we can say that joe biden is going to be the winner by a landslide, 306 electoral votes, the same as donald trump had in 2016. Well, you know, you and i both thought it was very bad four years ago and it is much worse now. We are seeing the culmination of a fouryear assault on truth and reality. I was talking today for my podcast and he said donald trump has succeeded in creating a zone of conversation where truth is no longer a relevant variable so that you can say untrue things, live in an alternative reality and not only have any consequences but there are certain benefits to it and the Republican Party has completely caved into it right now. You would think that theyre faced with the reality, forget fact check, the pandemic is the ultimate reality check, the losing the election is a real li check and yet were getting a measure of the degree of Donald Trumps delusion but also what he has done to our political culture and politically on the right. So four years of lying has consequences. It makes a difference. It doesnt just get to us believe lies. The end result is the annihilation of truth and the annihilation of the willingness to push back on all of this. I think that were living through the consequences of this in real time right now on friday the 13th, 2020. Fact checks are fruitless and they have been since donald trump was elected since before that. You go to facebook and you want to believe something and theres a fact check on it. Ive talked to people who say they dont believe the fact checkers. They think theyre in cahoots with the liberals who are not wanting to tell them the truth and donald trump is the only truth teller out there. How do we claw ourselves out of this . How do we regain a shared sense of reality, the actual reality . Honestly, i dont know but i think its crucial to understand that unless we get a shared sense of reality thats a real threat to democracy. Truth is the oxygen of democracy. And everything we saw coming four years ago has gotten worse and is getting worse. Part of the problem is not just there are more and more outlets for thisd disinformation, peopl throw up their hands and say what is truth . Whom i supposed to believe . They will go with what works for their tribe and thats a deadly path to go on. So we have seen in history whats happened to other democracies and other republics. What we havent seen is whether or not we can reverse some of these trends right now. So i wish i had an answer. I wish i could come up with a formula to say we need an American Public that cared about what was truth and we need two parties that were truth based and reality based but as were talking here, katy, were not seeing that right now. No, were not. Its probably going to get even worse. Listen, i think its a real problem, the biggest problem we face Going Forward beyond the immediate crisis of the pandemic, just getting on the same page. I dont know if you could hear it on television but i feel the same way as my screaming 18monthold son upstairs when i think about the challenge of trying to reestablish truth. Charlie sykes, always good to see you. Thank you for joining us and for write that go oped which continues to haunt me. Thats going to be it for me this hour. Im back at 5 00 p. M. Filling in for Nicolle Wallace who, again, deserves is getting a muchdeserved break. If you are going outside, well say this every day, wear a mask. If youre with people you dont know, wear a mask. Ayman mohyeldin picks up our coverage. Up our coverage good afternoon, everyone. Im Ayman Mohyeldin in new york. President trump about to break what has been more than a week of public silence. Next hour with an address on the administrations vaccine efforts. Now this, all of this, happening while these past seven days have been the longest stretch President Trump has gone without speaking publicly in the five and a half years since he launched his president ial bid. Breaking last hour president elect is the apparent winner in georgia and President Trump, while he is being declared the winner in north carolina, his