Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Richard Lui 20191130

Agenda. It will have historical and constitutional basis of impeachment, that will be in the agenda, the framework through which the house will look at the evidence and whether it warrants drafting articles of impeachment. The nadler comes as reporting through the Washington Post suggests there is little to no evidence to back up Eu Ambassador Gordon Sondlands claim that he spoke with President Trump on the now famous call. The president says that call proves he was not seeking favors from ukraine, a claim now under scrutiny. All this after seven public hearings to date, more than 34 hours of public testimony, 12 witnesses all set, the Judiciary Committee now takes the raeins. Former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, carol lam, but first lets go straight to nbc News White House correspondent Kelly Odonnell in west palm beach, florida, and kelly, its a new day. Weve got new deadlines and has the white house responded to chairman nadler . Reporter not yet, and perhaps theyre going to take as much time as the chairman is allowing to get those responses. I think weve got some clues that can give us some guidance. In part the white house has until tomorrow to decide if by wednesday they want to have any lawyers, the president s personal or white house lawyers, involved in the hearing on wednesday, and then by friday they have an opportunity to decide if theyre going to really put a defense forward for any portion of the judiciary hearing as it deals with impeachment. At the same time, we have heard from House Republicans on that committee, and one thing they are asking for is an expansion of the witnesses on wednesday asking for more witnesses who would be academics, who would be talking about the grounds for constitutional determinations about impeachment, and so liberals on the democratic side would be able to invite their witnesses and republicans are saying there might be some conservati conservative academics who would be able to also participate. We dont know if the chairman is going to permit that, but thats one indication of a way that republicans would like to see the committee expand what its doing. So to give you a sense of it, the clock is running. The president has some decisions to make, and what we know is up until this point they have said whats been happening in the house is a sham process that has cut the president out making it seem unlikely that he would want to engage in that process, but we dont yet know for sure until the president and his legal team make a decision. Richard. So kelly, ear to the ground you always have, go, no go, do we know when the president will say yes or no . Any indications here . Reporter well, i think because the president has some options, which would include participation or not participation, we know one thing is wednesday he is due to be in europe to attend the 70th anniversary of the Nato Alliance and have a couple of days on the world stage there. Given that, they expect that the president couldnt be personally there, so could he send Legal Counsel . He could, but he certainly will have republicans on that committee wanting to do you know, to represent his position. It seems unlikely that while this is in the house that the president would want to engage. At the same time knowing if the house goes forward with impeachment, the senate would control any future trial, and that would be republicancontrolled, a more comfortable environment, perhaps, if the president , but all of that is still to be determined. Richard. Our White House Correspondent Kelly Odonnell from west palm beach, florida, with the president there. Thank you so much for starting us out here. Lets start with Daniel Lippman, senior staff writer for the hill, scott wong, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst carol lam. Lets start with you on this. You are the adviser to President Trump. What should he do with these two deadlines . Well, its a tough decision theyve got going on here. Its a little bit like a criminal trial, you know. Certainly the president is not likely to testify himself, but when youre trying to decide whether or not to mount a defense, you have to be aware that youre not just going to get to put on your side of the story. Your story that you put forward can also be attacked by the other side. So thats the tough decision they have to make now, and with the president s schedule in the last couple of days, i imagine theres been a lot of vetting of potential positions that they could take with respect to whether or not theyre going to actually send counsel to actually start mounting a defense or whether theyre just going to say this process is just illegitimate, and were not going to partake in it at all. We may hear something. We may not hear anything fl t s ththi from this president and his lawyers. I was looking at the letter here from chairman nadler, not very long. At the end he says ill look forward to your prompt response. What do you make of the timing . This is the day after thanksgiving that chairman nadler is putting out this letter and the deadlines . Well, its just shifting. Were seeing the impeachment process shift from the Intelligence Committee now to the Judiciary Committee, and i think these are going to be much more unpredictable hearings than we saw under the leadership of chairman schiff over at intel. He was extremely disciplined, you know, by in large part those were successful hearings for democrats. They were able to extract testimony from these fact witnesses to help them build a case for impeachment. Under judiciary, you have some conservative bomb throwers like matt gates, like louie gomert who as we know in recent weeks they were the ones who were responsible for the political stunt in storming the secure scif and interrupting the depositions that were underway. Right. On the other hand, you have liberal bomb throwers like liberal fire brands like ted lou and Sheila Jackson lee. These are going to be sort of a recipe for much more explosive hearings than perhaps we saw under adam schiffs Intelligence Committee. Some might say good tv if you like that kind of stuff. Sure. Yeah, if you like that kind of scott does. As we look at these two deadlines, the second deadline is if the president would like to call his own witnesses, is it then up to nadler to say yes or no . Yeah, i think nadler doesnt want to make it look too partisan. This is already a pretty partisan process, and so it depends on what kind of witnesses the president would want to send up. I dont think hes going to send too many up because that would legitimize this inquiry in the first place. I think his strategy for his defense is to stick to tweeting and chopper talk for the next few weeks, and hes probably going to be distracted from the nato summit because hes going to want to watch some of those hearings and respond via twitter, and so World Leaders better kind of keep his attention before he has to respond back home. Carol, the rubbers hitting the road here, right . This letter going over to the president , he now has to, you know, put out his decisions. If youre in the white house, if youre the president , are these scary deadlines or are they just a matter of process . El wrgs i thiwell, i think i of process. They have to know what the hearings are going to fundamentally look like before they can make their decisions. Thats why the second deadline, which falls on friday, comes after the Intelligence Committees report will be sent over because the president , as a matter of process, the president and his advisers have to know what the allegations are going to be before they can make a decision whether theyre going to send witnesses in to testify. So it is a matter of process at this point, but theres a lot that goes into figuring out whether theyre going to comply with that process or not, and what kinds of witnesses theyre going to call. The president has to be very careful. His team has to be very careful not to start putting on witnesses who will then be essentially waiving any kind of executive privilege or Attorney Client privilege by testifying. They may call some witnesses if they do participate in this process, they may call some witnesses around the edges, but theyve got to think down the line what it will mean if they start actually calling people with firsthand knowledge of facts. That can be pretty hazardous for them. Scott, you were talking about schiff and the leadership during the Intel Committee hearings, right, we were laying out the number of hours, 34 hours or so here that we heard of testimony. Nadler doesnt have the same sort of halo, right, walking into this because when this entire process began in debate, if you will, nadler by critics view didnt get all positives. Didnt get all a pluses. Thats exactly right. You know, looking back at some of the past hearings he presided over, cory lewandowski, which sort of went off the rails, the Robert Mueller hearing, which was not seen as particularly successful for democrats, i think that was the case. Has he righted his way . I know you were writing about schiff and how generally speaking, you said this earlier, his performance was positive for the most part. Has nadler been able to learn from that . Any word on that . Oh, i certainly think that nadler was carefully observing how schiff conducted the hearings the past few weeks and is picking up a fewle lessons a so nadler, i think his mission will be to keep you know, run a tight ship, to not let things go off the rails, to continue the momentum that democrats have. Theyre also on a very tight time line. They want to get this wrapped up before christmas. He cant hes not going to schedule five different hearings. I think theres going to be a fairly limited number of hearings. Theyre each going to have a specific goal like the first one will be constitutional and legal scholars, and he definitely is considering, i think, his reputation in trying to as you mentioned trying to right the ship. And part of this here, daniel, is trying to educate the public, right . Because if you look at the your own poll so far in terms of support for impeachment, look at now versus last week. Barely even a movement of a percentage point or two or three, so that means that potentially nadler has to do Something Different as well educate as was laid out in the letter the public to say this is why you need to watch. Yeah, i think democrats understand that theyre not going to get overwhelming public support for impeachment throughout this entire process because people are pretty dug in to their point of views. Because this scandal is much more simple compared to the sprawling russia, mueller investigation, democrats feel are pretty confident that they can keep this narrowly targeted on that july 25th call and the resulting Pressure Campaign that President Trump had on ukraine, and if they keep it simple, then they can keep those numbers inching up, but democrats know that theyre not going to get a wave of support that will lead 20 republicans to defect in the senate. Carol, what is the best way to talk about those topics in terms of public . This is the process. This is why were doing it. This does not warrant articles of impeachment. You remember your civics classes, you probably remember them better than most given what you do and have done, but whats the best way to explain this to america . Well, you do have to keep it simple. Thats true whether youre trying a case to a jury or whether in this case youre doing a political process for the public. You do have to keep it simple because people are busy. Theyre not able to focus on this 24 hours a day, but what i think makes the ukraine situation really one that people can understand is if its presented clearly, its really an example of the president putting his own interests ahead of those of the nation, and i think that does sort of that does sort of ring a bell for most people, and the other part of the proposed impeachment allegations include, you know, potential obstruction of congress in these in the impeachment inquiry as well as obstruction of justice going back to the allegations in special counsel bob muellers report. And obstruction is something that most people can fundamentally understand. Now, whether thats going to get as much traction as Congress Needs is another question, but something simple, of great import, i think thats what people need to hear. Yeah, something my mom used to tell me when she was going over my papers as a teacher, keep it simple stupid, kiss, keep it simple. Well see if theyre able to do that. Sorry, mom, i had to say that. Well talk to you a little later. If you get calls from my mom, dont answer, please. The state of the 2020 race and reports that the Kamala Harris campaign could be having some trouble and struggles. Whatever monday has in store and tackle four things at once. So when her car got hit, she didnt worry. She simply filed a claim on her usaa app and said. I got this. Usaa insurance is made the way kate needs it easy. She can even pick her payment plan so its easy on her budget and her life. Usaa. What youre made of, were made for. Usaa cause no matter how far away for you roam. Ys. When you pine for the sunshine of a friendly gaze. For the holidays you cant beat home sweet home. The United States Postal Service goes the extra mile to bring your holidays home. With tough food, your dentures may slip and fall. Fixodent ultramax hold gives you the strongest hold ever to lock your dentures. So now you can eat tough food without worry. Fixodent and forget it. Welcome back. In the fight for the white house, the 2020 kacandidates ar roughly two months out from the iowa caucus. Joe biden struggling with iowa voters is trying to win them back with an eightday bus tour throughout the state. Kicking off in the city of Council Bluffs with plans to visit 18 counties. As biden aims to energize iowa voters, mayor Pete Buttigieg takes the lead, averages of iowa polls by real clear politics show buttigieg on top with 24 . Thats followed by senator Bernie Sanders with 18. 3, senator Elizabeth Warren with 17. 7, biden rounds out the top four with 16. 3. But when looking at National Polling averages, biden leads with 27 . Thats followed by sanders at 18. 3, warren with 15. 8 and buttigieg rounds out the top four with 11 . Joining us now nbc road warrior mike memoli in iowa following biden and nprs lead political edit editor dominico montinaro as you look at this bus, the no malarkey tour, for those who dont know what mar llarkey is think they have the definition on the bus. Reporter malarkey is a classic bidenism, it means foolish talk. Thats what the tour is about, showing to voters here in iowa the first caucus state, of course, that joe biden is the only candidate they believe can guarantee an end to the malarkey of President Trump. We just heard, actually, the former Vice President just took stage here during the commercial break. He said that this bus tour for him is going to be focusing on what is often a forgotten part of even a rural state like iowa. That is really the smaller communities where hes going to be spending the next eight days. We heard from his wife as she introduced him. She said that stopping donald trump starts today. This is really an effort by the Biden Campaign to jump start the pace of the campaign. They talked about thanksgiving. This is a time when a lot of ofamilies are gathered around the table, starting to really finally hone in on their decisions. Weve been talking to voters, some who say they saw mayor pete a couple of days ago. Hes certainly high up in esteem for a lot of the voters, but joe biden still has a chance to close the deal for them. Thats why the message hes really going to be focused on in talking to voters is he is indeed the best candidate to talk on donald trump. Hes the only candidate that can win states like michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. As we look at iowa, as we remember what you ate over the last two days, is this really the time where, you know, those views because youre talking with friends and family start to coagulate a little, start to stick a little bit more in terms of who you like and who you dont. Ive got to think about what i did eat so it doesnt coagulate too much. When you think about whats happening in this democratic primary, with so many candidates, you have about half to twothirds of the democratic primary voters saying that theyre undecided at this point, that they could change their mind. So when you see those numbers and why they fluctuate, its volatile. So when youve got those top four candidates. The reason why buttigieg is able to sort of surge and why warren had kind of come down in the past month, why biden was surging and sort of dipped a bit is because of the sort of undecided feeling with these democratic voters where they really want somebody who can beat donald trump. So when they hear Elizabeth Warren talking about medicare for all and then they line that up with polling numbers that show it to be unpopular. That makes them a little squeamish. And them people start coming back to someone like biden. If you were to take biden and put his name tomorrow on the ballot against donald trump, you know, he stands a pretty better than money even chance of winning the thing. Thats what a lot of people are looking at. The numbers you show there early on were really important because they were all above 15 , and 15 is important in a state like iowa because you get no points. You get no delegates unless you finish above 15 in the state, and someone like biden, if he can finish in the top three in iowa, he can have an argument to say hes still in the race. Then if he can sort of convince black voters who have been the backbone of his candidacy, he can win in south carolina, suddenly he can have a path to the nomination with all those march 3rd states that have significant populations in the south of africanamerican voters. When we look at this, back over to you, mike, iowa ground game key here. Get in your pickup, get in your van, in this case your bus for joe biden and others, youve got to blanket the state. How are the ground games of the others . We look at the top four in the polling, right, but we have many, many other candidates that sit below, and this gets expensive. This also tests your ability. Kamala harris in the New York Times reporting that hey, theyve got some issues. Some struggle right now in the ranks. Reporter yeah, richard, absolutely. Well, what the Biden Campaign says is they actually have one of the biggest ground games in the state. They have 26 field offices, more than 100 paid staff. What we havent seen as much from them is tv advertising. Mayor Pete Buttigieg has been outspending biden by about 3 to 1 in the state in the last weeks and months. Some other candidates, tom steyer spending a lot of money on tv, not necessarily seeing that translate in the polls. Kamala harris, she said with great fanfare shes moving to iowa. We saw her preparing her thanksgiving dinner that she was going to celebrate thanksgiving here in iowa, but her campaign struggles really have overtaken the message of her campaign. And i will tell you the Biden Campaign, who youll remember that debate moment at our first debate there in miami earlier this summer, he was on the defensive at the hands of Kamala Harris, and so theres some satisfaction, lets say, among team biden at seeing Kamala Harris and her campaign struggles at this point. Dominco react to that, if this reporting is correct from the New York Times, what does that show about where were at in the race and what is happening with the Harris Campaign . I think too many people put far too much into what staffers or advisers are doing on campaigns. They like to think that theyre sort of marionettes making candidates do things and moouchg them all over the place. The fact is she struggles with a message. Running for president is very difficult. A lot of democratic voters really like the idea of Kamala Harris but she wasnt able to sell it all the way through. She had a surge in the polls after that debate moment that mike was talking about that certainly the Biden Campaign is happy to see now, her sort of struggle with this. She wasnt able in the next debate to cash in on that. You might remember tulsi gabbard, the congresswoman from hawaii came after her with something. She just sort of shrugged her off and didnt have a good strong comeback, which was very surprising for a lot of people who thought she would be able to take it to some of these other candidates. Which is indicative potentially of the play plan. What do they have on the sheet. Thank you so much, great to have you both. Coming up, President Trump getting ready to head overseas after an announcement in afghanistan that surprised even his hosts. 1 in 5 people you meet wear dentures. Yeah. That many but right now, is not the time to talk about it. So when youre ready, search my denture care. Poligrip and polident. Fixed. Fresh. And just between us. Most people think of verizon as a reliable phone company. woman but to businesses, were a reliable partner. We Keep Companies ready for whats next. man we weave security into their business. Virtualize their operations. woman and build ai customer experiences. We also keep them ready for the next big opportunity. Like 5g. Almost all the fortune 500 partner with us. woman when it comes to digital transformation. Verizon keeps business ready. The taliban wants to make a deal, and were meeting with them, and were saying it has to be a cease fire. They didnt want to do a cease fire, but now they do want to do a cease fire, i believe itd probably work out that way, and well see what happens. President trump preparing to travel to london for the nato summit. Hes still tedealing with the fallout from his thanksgiving day assertion that a taliban cease fire is in the works or being discussed. The Washington Post reports the president s announcement surprised both the taliban and Afghan Governments. Neither the taliban nor the government indicated that a cease fire was near or even being discussed and resumed u. S. Negotiations. President trump drew criticism back in september when it was announced he planned to meet with taliban negotiators at camp david on 9 11. Those negotiations were ultimately canceled, and at the time he said he called off the talks after the taliban took responsibility for an attack that killed 12 people including a u. S. Service member. Now, in the interim the administration has moved ahead with its plan to withdraw u. S. Troops from afghanistan. Right now 8,600 troops are deployed in the region, a drop from about 13,000. Joining us now wesley clark, former nato supreme allied commander, and senior fellow at ucla, berkyl center, and back with us Daniel Lippman. Thank you for being with us. If i can start with you, general, what do you make of the fact that the cease fire is back in the language that the president is using and for those who watch this space are saying is the United States even ready, capable of pushing and leveraging a serious fire given where we have been in negotiations to date . Well, i think a cease fire would be a tangible sign of progress that the president would seek, but that doesnt mean that the cease fires really on the table right now. I think what the taliban said when President Trump called off the last set of talks before they would go to camp david is the United States would be back, and now i guess were back, and of course we would like the cease fire because it would be tangible, but as weve learned about the mechanics of how the peace talks have unfolded, really this is about a promise by the taliban not to deal with al qaeda, and later to talk with the existing government headed by president ghani, and then maybe there could be a cease fire. If they put the cease fire way further down. And in the meantime, were withdrawing forces anyway. So this is essentially an exercise to try to give the United States the appearance of something when we dont really have it. Thats my fear on this. Yeah, daniel, the headlines are reading, and i was looking at usa today and the New York Times, i was just mentioning the taliban and the Afghan Government its, was this something that was being discussed in the state department . Was this something being discussed in the department of defense . It doesnt appear that this was something that was being discussed at upper reaches of the u. S. Government. And for trump to say, well, the taliban want this and the taliban kind of deny it and say their negotiating position has not changed indicates kind of a credibility gap between what the president says and what the actual truth is. And so he seemed to go a little above over his skis but, you know, he does want the taliban to come to this position, but as we withdraw u. S. Troops, even without a deal, were losing leverage already, and so that makes it much harder for us to get the taliban to agree to what we want. Since were talking about international policy, general, as was mentioned, next week we have a nato meeting of leaders. This is definitely a space that you know quite well. However, at the moment, nato and its leaders fairly dysfunctional because of domestic politics in the respective member nations themselves. What are you looking for in this meeting as President Trump goes abroad . Well, id like to see the baltic defense plan approved. Turkey has president erdogan of turkey has blocked nato approval of this. Thats the first thing. Secondly, id like to see the United States not cut its commitment to the nato infrastructure funding, which apparently its announced its intention to do, and third, all these nato nations are looking to the United States for leadership, so its going to take a strong statement of purpose for the United States by the United States to reinvigorate nato. President macron of france said nato is brain dead, jchancellor merkel has said this is not a good thing to say, but she didnt say it wasnt quite true. So natos facing a real crisis in leadership. I was in new york in september. I met with former president s of east european countries, and to a person they were all aghast. They cant believe the lack of u. S. Leadership out there in nigh toe, and theyre afraid. One of the them told me eastern europe, it feels like 1938 again. Its the brink of war fafare cad by of course rush. And it was m and m for the last couple of years, macron and merkel in terms of leadership. The question is with macron having trouble at home, merkel not necessarily going strong, if you will, based on the hand thats been dealt to her is what will be next for nato and its importance as the general was tweeting earlier that macron is saying hey, United States, you must lead. Yeah, i think thats a clear indication that you know, european leaders are unsure of trumps commitment. He has threatened to pull out of nato, which would tear up the u. S. , european alliance, and you know, it reminds me of a scoop i had in march earlier this year when joe biden was considering running for president. He had met with some european leaders before, and they were urging him to run for president , which is kind of an unusual thing given that their current sitting occupant donald trump is not a popular man in europe and they think joe biden would be better for them. Yeah, and as we watch this coming week, well find out whether its functional nato or dysfunctional or elements of both potentially. General, while weve got you here, i want to reflect on this oped from the former secretary of the Navy Richard Spencer writing this, the president has a very little understanding of what it means to be in the military, to fight ethically or to be governed by a uniform set of rules and practices. What do you take from that, sir . Well, i think he made a good statement. I think, though, from President Trumps perspective, its just a matter of politics really. He he wants to play to his base, and if the military brass stands in the way of that, theyre going to get trampled. And in this case secretary spencer wouldnt let him make the play he wanted, so spencers out. Its unfortunate because the military does need structure and rules and authority, and the process is about as good as we could devise them. President trump could have intervened after the navy review board, but he chose not to. He wanted to make a political statement when he wanted to make it so he did it, and in doing it, he hurts the leadership and the men and women who depend on that leadership in the u. S. Armed forces. Sir, thank you so much. General wesley clark, politico Daniel Lippman for this conversation. Really do appreciate it. Thank you. Coming up, what were learning about yesterdays attacker in london. P could help. Plus, tech support to stay worry free. Worry free. Boom boom get free next business day shipping or. 1 hour instore pick up shopping season solved at Office Depot Officemax or officedepot. Com. Yeah. Only pay for what you need with Liberty Mutual. Only pay for what you need with Liberty Mutual. Con Liberty Mutual solo pagas lo que necesitas. Only pay for what you need. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. O ozempic® oh oh announcer people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of onceweekly ozempic®. 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Three teenagers were injured in those stabbings. They have all since been treatd and released from the hospital. In london, police are searching for clues in a separate stabbing attack there. It left two people dead and three more injured near london bridge. Usman khan was tackled yesterday by members of the public, shot dead by officers on the bridge after being identified as the attacker. This morning investigators say the 28yearold had a previous terror conviction and served jail time for his role in a plot to bomb the citys Stock Exchange and other major sites including the u. S. Embassy. Khan was in prison for six years in that case but was released last year. Nbc news correspondent Erin Mclaughlin is in london with the latest. Some serious questions are being asked here in london tonight, specifically what the suspect was doing out of prison. Hes identified as 28yearold usman khan, he was convicted in 2012 of plotting terror attacks on the u. S. Embassy here in london as well as the london Stock Exchange at the time a judge explicitly warning authorities not to let him out, called early license in this country. Never theless its exactly what happened. He was released and electronically tagged. I have long said that this system simply isnt working. It does not make sense for us as a society to be putting terrorists, people who have committed terrorist offenses, serious offenses out on early release. Reporter there could be political implications for Prime Minister johnson. Keep in mind the general election is 13 days away, and theres serious questions about the governments decision to lower the threat level here in the uk in the weeks prior to the attack. Erin mclaughlin, nbc news london chblts thank y. Thank you so much for that. Coming up, we take a deeper look at Rudy Giulianis ties to ukraine. Before we go to break, a quick check on a major winter storm were all watching is heading to the northeast. Nbc news meteorologist janessa web has the latest. We have 76 Million People that are going to be impacted by this storm system, and its two major systems from the midwest to the northeast. Its the biggest travel day of the year. People coming back from thanksgiving, and look at all the airport delays were going to see from minneapolis to chicago, we were already experiencing an hour to twohour delays. Its really going to increase in the next 24 hours, expect delays from boston, all the way into the washington. First this starts off as that rain mixture. New york city starts to deal with some freezing rain, and then were talking about accumulating snow for new york city going into sunday evening to monday. Also another storm system thats brewing for the west, if you are traveling from seattle, portland to san francisco, expect major delays for your sunday. Well be right back. Whatever monday has in store and tackle four things at once. So when her car got hit, she didnt worry. 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He connected giuliani, parnas did with former ukraine prosecutor general viktor shokin. Giuliani initially was working to counter the mueller investigation, but instead in this case shokin leads giuliani to allegations, allegations that former Vice President joe biden had worked to get him fired. Shokin claimed this was an effort to protect joe bidens son hunter. Giuliani then pivoted and made this his focus. This despite a lack of evidence to prove shokins theory, again, about the bidens. Then we take you to the next month. Giuliani and parnas and another of his associates, igor fruman spoke with shokin again, and with yuriy lutsenko, shokins successor all meeting. Both made accusations against biden. Shokin criticized an ambassador to ukraine, in addition here, marie yovanovitch. The Washington Post reports that during those conversations, lutsenko asked giuliani to represent him. Lutsenko wanted to recover assets that he claimed had been stolen from ukraine. The pair discussed agreements and reportedly this involved hundreds of thousands of dollars in retainers for giuliani. Giuliani eventually decided not to take that job. Then we take you to late april in the calendar. Yovanovitch was removed from her position. She was targeted by giuliani and others in trumps circle on the way up to this release and this firing. Fruman and parnas at the same time were meeting with ukrainian officials. Now, parnas told the new yorker they were working to help dig up dirt on behalf of the president and garner new business for themselves along the way. Then in way. In may Volodymyr Zelenskiy takes office as the ukrainian president. This is when the president said to work with giuliani on ukraine. This allowed giuliani to get ukraine to conduct investigations requested by the president. Again, into the bidens. By August Giuliani had met with senior zelensky aid Andriy Yermak and was reportedly involved in draft ing a statement that ukraine announced to the investigations themselves public. Giuliani and the trump administrations efforts in ukraine began to come to light weeks later. However, despite the president s seemingly close relationship with his personal lawyer, this week he appeared to be distancing himself from Rudy Giuliani. What was giuliani doing in ukraine on your behalf . You have to ask that to rudy. I dont even know i know he was going to go to ukraine and i think he canceled the trip. But, you know, rudy doesnt have other clients other than me. Im one person so you didnt direct him to go there on your behalf . No, but no. You have to understand, rudy is a great corruption fighter. Joining us now, handcuff post senior justice reporter ryan riley and msnbc legal analyst carol lam. I guess when you hear the word jeopardy here, carol, this seems to be rife with a whole bunch of risks for Rudy Giuliani. We havent heard from him as of late after the testimonies on the hill. Where does giuliani sit right now in the case the democrats are trying to make . I dont want to get too far ahead of the fact, but theres no question the risk profile for Rudy Giuliani is getting higher. So this is what we know. We know that in addition to the facts that you just reviewed, we know that parnas and fruman have been indicted for Campaign Finance violations related to misrepresenting the source of funds that went to u. S. Politicians that actually came from foreign governments. Right around that same time period of those actions, parnas and fruman paid Rudy Giuliani 500,000 for his consulting and management services, thats my giulianis own admission to the press. Thats not a great situation for Rudy Giuliani. And i think the Southern District of new york prosecutors are doing exactly what they should be doing, which is trying to get their hands on every shred of paper that shows any finance information relating to giuliani. Theyre going after undoubtedly tax returns, bank information. Theyre going to companies that did business with them. Theyre looking for agreements, loan documents, anything that shows the money moving and theyre going to follow the money. Then on top of that theyre going to talk to witnesses who can put that story together for them. Theyre getting the documents, then theyre going to ask the witnesses. Parnas has now indicated hes going to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry. That doesnt mean hes necessarily cooperating with the prosecutors, but thats a possibility in the future. Talk about putting a story together. Ryan, you have been putting together the story here on ukraine and Rudy Giuliani. I guess one question for those who are not part of this space, this consulting fee, typical . Not quite, especially the way they structured it. If you take a step back, obviously giuliani, theres been reports of him having money flow problems in connection with his divorce and it doesnt set up a great situation when you have this lawyer for the president working probo no. Its a bad combination because it looks like payment for access. Thats really what i think hes facing here, appearance of impropriety. Hes seen by foreign actors as a way to go around the system, thats a real problem. If that was a different country, america would see that as an issue. So i think thats when you step back, it was this setup that was never going to end well when he was in this position to offer access to the president directly. Seems here, ryan, going back to the web, if you will, that we had up on the screen of americans and ukrainians with Rudy Giuliani in the very middle of all of that, this is only what we know in terms of who Rudy Giuliani is and the connections that he was making. Yeah. I mean, it has a swampy look to it and thats something the president ran on is trying to drain the swamp. When people hear about, oh, these extraordinary fees foreign governments can have access to the president and sort of put a bug in his ear and get an ambassador ousted, thats certainly a problem, the idea of the president trying to drain the swamp. Thats not a great look. Not a great look. Carol lam, very quickly, 30 seconds, whats next for Rudy Giuliani . I think giulianis going to have to see what his exposure is here, whether that means his own lawyer is going to be talking to the Southern District of new york or not. There was some word play a couple days ago about whether giuliani whether the president was throwing him under the bus, so to speak. Were a long ways from giuliani turning against the president , but his own exposure may force his hand on that but are. Ryan riley, carol lam, go out and enjoy your saturday. Im richard lui. You can follow me on twitter, instagram, and facebook. Stay with us right here on msnbc. For the holidays you cant beat home sweet home. We go the extra mile to bring your holidays home. Im finding it hard to stay on a faster laptop could help. Plus, tech support to stay worry free. Worry free. Boom boom get free next business day shipping or. 1 hour instore pick up shopping season solved at Office Depot Officemax or officedepot. Com. Liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. I wish i could shake your hand. Granted. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. 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Its pretty crazy. Just imagine what it can do for you. Are you currently using a whitening toothpaste, but not seeing results . Try crest 3d whitestrips. Its enamelsafe formula lifts and removes stains to provide 100 noticeably whiter teeth or your money back. Try crest 3d whitestrips. Good evening, and welcome to politicsnation. Tonights lead, defend or deflect. Thats whats on the table for President Trump as he weighs whether to allow his lawyers to testify in the impeachment inquiry. Thereby legitimatizing the opening hearings or