Recent allegations, are you willing to have this do it . The Witness Testimony is before you. No witness who was there supports that i was there okay, im going to take that as a no. Did you watch dr. Fords testimony . I did not. I plan to. Thank you. I plan to, but i did not. I was preparing mine. At the end of the day, donald trump sent this out. Quote, judge kavanagh showed america exactly why i nominated him. His testimony was powerful, honest and riveting. Democrats Search And Destroy strategy is disgraceful and this process has been a total sham, an effort to delay and resist. The senate must vote. White house Deputy Press Secretary raj shaw added this. The president was thrilled with his testimony. He was strong. He was passionate. He was very convincing because he was telling the truth. The president stands firmly behind judge kavanagh. Judge kavanagh is the white
houses nominee for this open seat. Hes going to get confirmed. Let us bring in our lead off panel on a thursday night. Robert Costa National political reporter for the washington post, moderator on pbs and what a week its already been. Cynthia oxney, veteran of the Civil Rights Division at the justice department. Mimi rocca, former District Attorney of the Southern District of new york, now distinguished fellow at the Pace University school of law. Steve schmidt, the Bush White House, mccain president ial campaign and others. Robert costa, you are among the best connected reporters that we know. Take a minute. Tell us how the day played out and what are you hearing importantly tonight . It played out in two fronts politically within the Republican Party holding the majorities of congress and the white house. President trump disappointed in how this process played out with dr. Fords testimony. People inside of the white house, brian, tell me the president found her compelling. The testimony compelling. He thought kavanagh, the federal judge needed to come through with his testimony. He urged kavanagh in a phone call to make sure he was defiant in his testimony and by end of day the president decided to stand by the nominee and thought he did a strong job in his testimony and really pushing back against the democrats. But its still tbd in the u. S. Not. Where are senator collins, senator murkowski, they have decisions to make. Senator corker one of the possible swing votes, republican retiring said he would support kavanagh. It seems to be moving toward kavanagh, but a lot of votes still in the air. We hear this reporting, bob, those on the fence, the collins, murkowski, flake may vote. In both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, all of the senators, the red state
senators, moderate republicans, that group within the chamber, they are really looking to each other. No one really wants to be out there as the isolated person taking a political stand thats very dramatic, perhaps lone vote in a way that breaks away from your party. So theyre looking to each other. A lot of Back Channel Discussions tonight where are people really going to go. Taking a political stand. Imagine that. Cynthia oxney, as dispassionately as you can, how did im out. You have the wrong girl. A good lawyer can argue both sides. You were with us all the way through the coverage. Starting with her, she was outstanding as a witness. She was raw. She made every effort to be fair. She worked very hard for instance, i remember one specific time when the question came up about who pushed her into the room, and she was concerned that somebody would think she was testifying judge kavanagh pushed her she
wasnt sure and she didnt want to put that on him. There were little moments like that i thought were very compelling and really enhanced her testimony. The other important thing about her was, which was brought out frankly by the prosecutor very effectively, although not on purpose, was that she knew judge kavanagh. There was no identification question. That was taken off the table effectively. I just thought she was an outstanding witness and i would have put her on the stand in any case and been just thrilled at the manner in which she testified. Now, about the dispassionate part about the judge, i thought a couple things. One i thought he clearly demonstrated he did not have the temperament to be a United States federal court judge. The screaming, the accusations, the politics were just
completely inappropriate. Independent of what happened, his demeanor was unhinged. It was a bit of a Temper Tantrum and it was inappropriate. That, number one. Number two, its very hard for him in my opinion to get away from the fact that seven ways from sunday he tried to dodge the question about whether or not he would have an fbi investigation and he denied it. He just wouldnt do it. The inescapable conclusion is he wont do it because he doesnt want anybody to know what this guy judge says. And i dont see how you get away from that. The other thing about his testimony, which is he tried to belittle about this discussion about his High School Year book. And i get that. And i think on some level he was pretty effective so let me put that in my dispassionate column. I think he was effective in neutralizing that. But upon reflection, things that he said, like for example, oh, and we said this girl whose
name i wont say because i think shes been through enough, alum us in, that didnt mean anything. That just meant we were friends. Thats a lie. Thats a lie. That was what they were doing and they were basically calling her easy or a slut or whatever the term was in the 80s. I went to high school in the 70s. Maybe in the 80s it was easy. Anyway, they were calling her a bad name. They had a poem about how easy she was. There were 14 of them that had their little ranata alum us in line. It was hurtful and mean and terrible. Instead of owning it and saying that was terrible and apologizing, he tried to tell us all that, oh, no, we were just being nice. We thought we were friends with her and that was our way of being sweet. What does he think we are, stupid . So, i was very offended by that. I was offended when he tried to say this Devils Triangle Business is a kwrtsz game. Its not a quarters game. I dont think we need to get into it but it aint no quarters game. So i think if you add his sort
of insulting our intelligence with his lies and you couple that with the lies about the memos of leahy, the lies about his role in the prior investigation prior confirmation, with the lies about judge kaszynski and his chambers and the sexual harassment, you really have a Credibility Problem with him. If youre looking at it fairly, you cant say, oh, i believe this woman, but i think he didnt do it. Right . Cant do that. So once you say, i believe this woman, then he did it because she knows he did it. And especially in light of the fact that he has a serious Credibility Problem. Frankly hes not told the truth. Mimi rocca, while this is not a court of law, in effect, if you were prosecuting this i would have to ask you to do it without a named witness. Mr. Mark judge last seen at a beach house on the eastern shore. Im going to play one of the exchanges. Well talk about it on the other
side. Mark seemed to urge brett on, at times telling him to stop. A couple of times i made eye contact with mark and thought he might try to help me. But he did not. During this assault, mark came over and jumped on the bed twice while brett was on top of me. Mimi, a question for the lawyer in you, how are we to process this, a known witness we know who this guy is and have a pretty reasonable idea where he is, and yet we cant have access to him . Its the ghost of mark judge was all over this hearing and no prosecutor would proceed without being able to at least talk to him, have a trained Investigator Talk to him, not some statement through a lawyer or on a piece of paper. I think hopefully what today
maybe proved to people is the importance of seeing witnesses in person and being able to evaluate their credibility. So, you know, he is an eyewitness. What we have right now is a very credible victim witness who i certainly believe and i think a lot of people in america, Around The World who saw her believe, and shes corroborated right now by her own prior statements, consistent statements, some of the things that kavanagh has put out there, the Calendar Entries and some of those actually corroborate her. There is this whole july 1st date that, you know, lists some of the very participants that shes talking about being at this party on july 1st. His calendar this is a calendar shes never seen before. How compelling is that . It talks about some of the very same participants going to, you know, a party on a Summer Weekend in the same year that were talking about. I mean, that already really kind of starts to look like some real
corroboration of already her testimony. And, you know, but you need to hear from mark judge. And the fact that they wont let that happen, as we all keep saying, but it really there is just no explanation for it other than they dont want to hear what he has to say. And one other point that i think gets us to that conclusion is not only dont they want to go talk to him, but i thought judge kavanagh was starting to do the sort of Coffee Boy Defense with mark judge. You know, well, hes got drinking problems. Hes got im sure he does and it sounds like he has problems. But i really felt like kavanagh was trying to say even if we go talk to mark judge, you cant trust what hes going to say because i think hes so afraid of what he might say if hes really questioned by a trained investigator. All right, steve schmidt, after a complex day, the question to you is rather simple. Do you feel better or worse about america than before this day started . Worse. This was a disgrace that we witnessed today. The United States senate, brian, the formerly known as the worlds greatest deliberative body and weve seen for 30 plus years a cycle of revenge and retribution in our judicial nominations that came to this moment today. And i think about kids who you would admonish playing with matches. And for purposes of the analogy, the United States senators are the kids. And today the kids playing with matches literally burn the house down. And so enormous damage was done today institution of the Supreme Court today, to the process, to the United States senate. I think the American People look at this and theyre shocked by it. To see the degeneracy of our politics, the cost of partisanship in our institutions. Look, i thought that dr. Ford was very credible, and i think
that Brett Kavanagh and it pains me to say it has a Credibility Problem. We have a we have in politics, we often say that the outcome is determined by the last big thing that happened as opposed to the first thing that happened. And we know this. This is the first thing at the beginning of the process that Brett Kavanagh said. He said, mr. President , thank you. Throughout this process i have witnessed firsthand your appreciation for the vital role of the american judiciary. No president has ever consulted more widely or talked with more people from more backgrounds to seek input about a Supreme Court nomination. Of course, that is selfevidently not true. He made an untruthful statement and a political statement with his first utterance as a new nominee for the court. Now the rage and the anger that
we saw from him today i think is appropriate for somebody who feels that they are falsely accused. But as you go through this, it makes no sense why someone who is falsely accused would not want to instigate a reopening of the fbi Background Investigation for the purposes of explicating him from the situation. The answers on drinking were not credible. And lastly, and i say this as somebody who worked with Brett Kavanagh in the Bush White House and has no ill will towards Brett Kavanagh, liked Brett Kavanagh, but in his statement, though he may be aggrieved, through his perspective justly aggrieved, it was a declaration of partisan war on the left, on the clintons, on conspiracy, a Declaration Of War against the Democratic Party. How can a Supreme Court justice function in a Lifetime Appointment that partisan, that convicted that one half of the country are his political enemies . How will he adjudicate cases fairly if you just look at the plain intent behind the words he spoke . We saw tremendous disrespect for senators like amy klobuchar. We saw profound anger. And i think that anger, even though he may view it as justified, is inherently disqualifying for someone who is going to have a Lifetime Appointment. And then lastly, hes in his early 50s. He could credibly serve on the Supreme Court to, lets say, 2058. He could be up there for 40 years. And for every second that hes up there, fair or not, it will raise a question about the
legitimacy of the court. We already have that with clarence thomas. Im not sure we need to have another compromised justice who is in his early 50s serving with a Lifetime Tenure with that cloud hanging over him. Trump is a symptom of the problems in the country, not a cause. And the reason we have President Trump is because the collapse of trust in very nearly every institution in the country and what we saw today was another chapter in the erosion of public trust and for good reason in our most vital institutions. I think this was a tragic day for the country. And for the two individuals we saw testifying. Been a momentous day. All of our guests have agreed to stay with us. We have to fit in a break. Obviously our discussion, a special one at that, continues right after this. vo people with Type 2 Diabetes are excited about the potential of
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or vision changes. Taking ozempic® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may increase the risk for low blood sugar. Common side effects are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach pain, and constipation. Some side effects can lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. I discovered the potential with ozempic®. Oh oh oh ozempic® vo ask your Healthcare Provider if ozempic® is right for you. Each unique piece comes to life in the same way. Er business with her own two hands. A messy, sloppy, splattery way. But now shes found a way to keep her receipts tidy, even when nothing else is. brand vo snap and sort your expenses with quickbooks and find, on average, 4,628 in tax savings. Smarter Business Tools for the worlds hardest workers. Quickbooks. Backing you. Lindsey grahams tirade got noticed across town. Press secretary Sarah Huckabee sanders posting this after hearing that. Quote, Lindsey Graham has more decency and courage than every democrat member of the committee combined. God bless him. Short time after grahams comments, senator orrin hatch of utah echoed some of Brett Kavanaghs testimony. This is a National Disgrace the way youre being treated. And in the middle of it all we have judge kavanagh, a man who until two weeks ago, was a pillar of the legal community. Theres been no whisper of misconduct by him in the time hes been a judge. What we have are uncorroborated, unsubstantiated claims from his teenage years. After todays hearing, republican senator bob corker of tennessee announced as we said he would be voting for kavanagh. There are several other
important votes we dont yet know about. As we mentioned, senators flake, murkowski, collins, joe manchin met in private tonight after the hearing, after their meeting flake told reporters he is facing a tough choice. Its a close call. You leave with doubts whichever way. Thats the nature of this. Theres no way you can leave certain youre completely right, hes right, shes wrong, shes right, hes wrong. I mean, youre never certain. You just do the best we can. Thats what were trying to do. Back with us, robert costa, cynthia oxney, mimi rocca, steve schmidt. Robert, not since the Heart Injection and pulp fiction have i seen someone spring to life the way senator graham did today. It was right after dick durbin, youll forgive the phrase, drew blood on the subject of the fbi. And lets face something here. Its a town of a lot of whispering and a lot of cynicism and people, as soon as they heard Lindsey Graham, thought this was an audition for a cabinet position, perhaps justice, perhaps pentagon at some point in the future. Ill tell you what it was, brian. Someone who was at the capital all day reporting, it was revealing. It was revealing about the Republican Party. What a split screen. Senator graham versus senator flake. Senator graham just like judge kavanagh, taking the advice of President Trump, following the model of President Trump, defiant, fight, total political war in this charged america that were all living through and covering. And then theres retiring republican jeff flake of arizona, reluctant to embrace that kind of turn in the
Republican Party, that kind of War Mentality when it comes to american politics, unsure of how hes going to vote. Its just a split Republican Party in how theyre coming down on this. For now its that graham trump approach, that aggression thats fueling senators inside the gop. When im talking to them in the hallways and theyre mulling what to do. Cynthia, back to something, a point you started before the break, to find for judge kavanagh, does that have to mean you believe she is crazy, mistaken, or lying . Yeah, absolutely. Its that simple . Its that simple. Because she is 100 sure. She knew him in advance. This is not a stranger situation. Right. She didnt have to establish how they knew each other. She was dating a friend of his. They went to parties together. She absolutely knew him. Theres no way she can look him she didnt have to look him directly in the eye. She can look the camera in the eye and say, he did this to me. And if you vote for him, youre calling her a liar. Theres no way around that. Mimi rocca, in the world of sports, they call it a designed play. And i hate to reduce this to sporting terminology, but dick durbin came into the hearing with two of them in mind. His first one highly effective. Whats your degree of certainty . His second one was to kavanagh about the fbi, im going to play it. Well talk about it on the other side. So youre saying theres never been a case where you drank so much that you didnt remember what happened the night before or part of what happened . Youre asking about black out. I dont know, have you . Could you answer the question, judge . Thats not happened, is that your answer . Yeah, im curious if you have. I have no drinking problem, judge. Nor do i. Okay, thank you. I was going to say, i started my last colloquy by saying to senator klobuchar how much i respect her and respected what
she did at the last hearing, she asked me a question at the end, i responded by asking her a question. Im sorry i did that. This is a tough process. Im sorry about that. Ive got a suggestion for you. Right now, turn to your left in the front row, to don mcgahn, counsel to president donald trump, ask him to suspend this hearing and nomination process until the fbi completes this investigation. Stop the clock. This committee is running this hearing, not the white house, not don mcgahn, not even you as a nominee. Apologies. Thank you, everyone, for rolling with us. Obviously that was klobuchar from minnesota prior to durbin of illinois. But, mimi, what do you make of both of those moments . He had to apologize to the senator for asking for answering a question with a question and casting aspersions. And then durbin was left without an answer there. Well, the first one with
klobuchar was not him asking a question. It was him getting so defensive about the question she had asked. Which was part of todays discussion. It was. Others have said this, but ill say it again. It is clear he is lying about the degree to which he did drink and frankly probably the degree to which he drinks now. Whether or not he drinks alcohol isnt the central issue of whether he should be a judge, but whether hes lying about it is. And it goes to the truth of the main issue here, which is did you sexually assault dr. Ford. And if he was so drunk that he couldnt remember it or couldnt control it, or, you know, just doesnt want to admit all of that, that goes to that central issue. And there is no doubt in my mind in that answer, he was terrified to answer that question because the truth is he did drink too much. And thats why it wasnt just him asking a question of her, it was him getting defensive and belligerent, frankly. And, look, durbin asked the right question that were all asking, all of america is
asking. Were asking on tv, were asking it to our neighbors. Why dont you want the fbi to do an investigation . Dont say theres nothing they cant do. I can list you five things right now. Talk to mark judge. Talk to the woman that was there with her who wrote this statement and then later apologized. You cant do things by paper, you know. You have to have people in front of you and establish their credibility. Go find out the dates that mark judge was working at that store, you know, what other documents does he have besides the calendar . There are so many other things you can do in just a couple of weeks. And durbin really got home the point that not only is it the republicans in general that dont want that investigation, it is Brett Kavanagh because i think he is really deathly afraid of what mark judge will say. Steve schmidt, i hate to get personal, but lets get personal. Its late. Lindsey graham, what do you think is going on with him . And heres why i ask. When his friend john mccain was alive and youve spent time around both gentlemen he liked being known as a bit of a maverick. But since the death of john mccain, i think you can draw a line to the kind of dizzyingly fast degree with which he has become an unquestioning trump supporter. Republican from south carolina. I get the rest of it politically. But what do you think is the motivation here . Hes corrupted by ambition, corrupted by politics, and its tragic because this country could use a statesman right now. And Lindsey Graham for a long time was on a path that he would be that person, that hed be a figure of courage, that hed be a serious person in a frivolous era. To see him corrupted by the trump era, to see him become sycoph antic, to become dishonest and angry and smearing, tragic. Certainly not the person i once knew. But again, if you hang around politics long enough you tend to
get disappointed by people. He is a profound disappointment. After a hell of a day, thanks for bringing their agame. Robert cost a, cynthia oxney, mimi rocca, steve schmidt. The raw Senate Hearing could have lasting and National Ramifications for years, decades perhaps to come. More on what happens next when we come back. Are holding you back, and your Current Treatment hasnt worked well enough it may be time for a change. Ask your doctor about entyvio®, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohns. Entyvio® works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract, and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both Symptom Relief and remission. Infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. Entyvio® may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. Pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal Brain Infection caused by a virus may be possible. Tell your doctor if you have an Infection Experience frequent infections or have flulike symptoms, or sores. Liver problems can occur with entyvio®. If your uc or crohns treatment isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio®. Entyvio®. Relief and remission within reach. My family and my name have been totally and permanently destroyed by vicious and false additional accusations, as no doubt was expected, if not planned, came a long series of false lastminute smears designed to scare me and drive me out of the process before any hearing occurred. Im never going to get my reputation back. My life is totally and permanently altered. This dram sa that played out on the hill today may not stop or even stall Brett Kavanaghs Supreme Court nomination. Republican senators met tonight to decide how to move forward. The verdict, no change to the schedule. Expected to vote 9 30 a. M. In the east. Full senate will likely take up the nomination within the next few days as early as saturday. With us tonight to talk about
all of it, former u. S. Attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. Eugene robinson, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist for the washington post, and michael steele, former republican committee. Mr. Chairman, ive yet to talk to you all day. We had this situation today, mr. Chairman, where a Sex Crimes Prosecutor from maricopa, arizona, was questioning a sitting federal judge as designated woman to ask the kweds and questions and take the heat for the 11 white male republicans on that side of the committee. Did that backfire or did that turnout pretty well for them, do you think . I think it fell very flat, to be honest with you, brian. In fact, i think the general consensus emerging out of that was at the end where i thought she just kind of punted, to be honest, she was she was not
the prosecutor. You could almost see in the way she was asking the questions two things going on in her mind. One, ive got to somehow preserve my reputation out of this. And, two, this woman is credible. She is telling the truth and i think that made it much more difficult for her to pursue the line of questioning the way i think the republicans on the committee envisioned it. So much so and i think after that testimony, there was a lot of consternation and bubbling about the effectiveness of not the questioning, but the answers to the point where i think it pushed all of this to a head with senator graham and others that wound up, they said forget this, were going to take control of asking the questions of kavanagh. Joyce, you were with us when this all played out. When he came out, it was just like he was going to throw the long ball. You heard him say, my name has been destroyed, past tense. Well, you could argue not if youre still going to make your way to the Supreme Court. You know, there is this incredible moment when i think everybody listening to him thought, hes about to take his name out of consideration. And then he pushed past that through this toddler worthy Temper Tantrum and staked out his right to be on the Supreme Court, his right to push past any sorts of allegations that were made against him. It was really a remarkable and i dont mean that in a good way sort of moment. Eugene, a good friend of mine who has a Pulitzer Prize oh, its you has a title, the title, just how low can republican senators go . Id love you to take a whack at answering your own question. Well, look, if you had imagined earlier in the week, how bad can thursday be . You wouldnt have been close to how bad, you wouldnt have been close. This is a round about answer to your question. If you want to take a look at this with the widest possible lens, this is all part of, to quote my favorite american, now we are engaged in a great civil war, right . This is a war between the america that was and the america that will be. And this is a very, very difficult transition. This war has many theaters, many fronts, race, diversity, age, urban rural, there are lots of fault lines here. And its becoming more like, to mix my war metaphors, like world war i. Were dug into trenches. Today dug those trenches deeper because dr. Christine blasey ford was credible. I mean, she was totally credible. Theres no mistaken identity. She happens to be qualified as an Expert Witness as well to testify in this case, so she
knew exactly what was going on. Not only what happened to her, but what was going on with her perception, her memory of it. She was as credible as you possibly could be. And when it came judge kavanaghs turn, he decided to go full partisan. Let it fly. Just absolutely let it rip. And when the prosecutor Rachel Mitchell just happened to be asking him about specifics and was getting to that date that could be a potential date where this might have happened because, you know, the skis with all the folks july 1st, i think it is, 1982, that just happened to be the point where Lindsey Graham goes off. Changed the tone. And completely derails any sort of fact finding, even in this venue. Not that were going to have
actual fact finding by fbi, but even in this venue. All we can do is dig the trenches deeper. And so theres going to be more fighting. Untempered by the fact world war i involved nerve gas. Our guests have agreed to stick around. Were going to go to a quick break. When we come back were going to talk about what it is we witnessed today. Sooner or later, we all sign up for medicare. And like my dad, you might want Medicare Supplement insurance, too. Uh oh, more research. No big thing. Not with this website. Unitedhealthcare Insurance Company created aarpmedicaresupplement. Com to give you answers about aarp Medicare Supplement insurance plans insured by unitedhealthcare Insurance Company. Like how this type of plan, also called a medigap plan, helps pay for some of what medicare doesnt. And how these plans are the only ones endorsed by aarp. Selected for meeting their high standards of quality and service. And with just your zip code find rates for the aarp Medicare Supplement plans in your area. Read about the key features of medigap plans, too. Including the freedom to choose any doctor who accepts medicare patients. So, if youre thinking about a medigap plan, this is a great place to start. Filled with great advice. Like your dad, right . Yeah, right. I would argue it already is. Still with us, joyce vance, Eugene Robinson and michael steele. Mr. Chairman, i heard Kasie Hunt Report tonight that part of what is motivating the clock, the 9 30 hearing, the word that there may be a full senate vote as early as saturday, is that they dont want her story to sit with people that long because it may, it may come back and resonate. Right. Her decency and her obvious expertise in her field may rattle around in folks heads. Its sad. Its sad, and i think largely true. But i would say to that extent, brian, the story already resonated. It resonated in the time she was sitting in that chair confronting that chamber. But heres the bottom line in all of this. There was a moment, and i think it was triggered by Lindsey Graham, where he basically was saying to the leadership and to the republicans, we are going to
die on this hill. We are prepared to die on this hill. And, and that means that we will vote him out of committee tomorrow and we will vote him on to the bench whether its on saturday, sunday or monday. It will happen. And thats because the calculation, as cold and unremitting as it is, is that having that seat on the bench, we can withstand the loss of a chamber for one or two cycles. Well get that back. We may never get this opportunity to get this seat again. So this hill, for a lot of republicans, is worth dying over. I dont think so, because the price is too high to pay. I have literally just been handed a letter that has been sent via email to grassley and feinstein. It reads, Dear Chairman Grassley and Ranking Member feinstein, as i stated my attorney barbara vangelder, i did not ask to be
involved. I told the committee i do not want to comment about these events publicly. As a recovering alcoholic and cancer survivor, i have struggled with depression and anxiety. As a result, i avoid public speaking. Brett kavanagh and i were friends in high school but we have not spoken directly in several years. I do not recall the events described by dr. Ford in her testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee today. I never Saw Brett Act in the manner dr. Ford describes. I am knowingly submitting this letter under penalty of felony. Joyce vance, ive looked around. You are not only the only lawyer here, youre the highest ranking lawyer here. There is the letter. What does that mean to you . Does that advance the ball anywhere from where we were today . You know, it doesnt. And i suspect that if one of my oldest and dearest friends was
in the fight of his life and if i had testimony that could exonerate him, i would not be hiding in a beach house on the maryland shore. I would not be holding up my medical condition. People who are recovering alcoholics testify in courts all the time in this country. People are subpoenaed when they are material witnesses. He is a material witness. And he can say penalty of felony or whatever the phrase that he and Brett Kavanagh used today in the hearing, its an unusual turn of phrase, now its in this letter. But whatever he wants to call it, he can say that until hes under oath and the senators can look into the whites of his eyes and observe his demeanor as he testifies. This issue of what he knows and what he would say under oath is still wide open. And let me ask you about the other witness. Dr. Ford, you and i had this conversation contemporaneously. You take her obvious decency and the fact she was plucked from a
normal life in california. Add to it a ph. D. In her field of study that also spoke to the questions she faced as a witness. It was an extraordinary combination. She was a surprisingly good witness. I think what you expect in that situation is to have someone who is fragile, someone who is maybe tentative in telling their story, and she comes in, obviously distressed, but obviously working hard to overcome that distress. And she is very careful. She at points in the story where she could have really condemned kavanagh, she pulls back. When she talks about him putting his hand over her mouth and her fear that he would kill her, she is very clear about saying, inadvertently. She doesnt want there to be any shadow of a doubt that he might have been acting intentionally. She has so much credibility because of the care with which she chooses her words. Gene . I would just point out that, by the way, she has suffered symptoms of anxiety and ptsd
yes, stress disorder. And she managed to suck it up and testifying. Exactly. I thought about this morning here she is forced to testify and this guy, and all of the other folks, get a pass. Its not fair. Eugene, in the last 60 seconds we have, does finding for the judge, does a yes vote on the judge mean that you find her crazy, mistaken, or telling a lie . I think it means you dont believe her. You know, for whatever reason, you dont believe the events she described happened. And so why . You prefer to believe Brett Kavanagh is really the only you have to make that decision. You dont have you havent heard the testimony. You havent had an fbi investigation. You dont have a factual record, and maybe it would be a fairly meager one. Maybe it would be a full one. But you know, you dont have that to make that decision. So its whom you prefer to
believe frankly and you prefer not to believe her. Joyce vance, last word. Was this a good day or a bad day for law and those who love the law in america . This was a tough day for the rule of law. And i think the reason goes back to what you just said, eugene. I think that there may be folks who listened to her today who found her to be credible, but who decided it was so important to put a conservative justice on the Supreme Court that even knowing that shes speaking the truth theyll vote for him. Thats a bad day for the rule of law. And thats where well have to leave our conversation at the end of this long day, along with our thanks to joyce vance, to Eugene Robinson, to michael steele. Really appreciate it, gang, for joining us. It brings us to the last thing before we go tonight. It is about what we witnessed today. A moment of genuine high drama, human drama in washington, the likes of which as we said we havent seen for a generation or more of american life. And it gave us one of those rare
tell me youre watching this, or, are you watching this National Television moments . Combined with the fact that watching television is now much more of a portable pursuit than when we were, say, younger. It meant that we had millions not just watching in living rooms and kitchens, but cubicles, break rooms, in the car, continuing on Computer Screens when we got to work. Students gathered in College Campuses to see history play out live. It even hundred dollar rd happened underground, a photo tweeted out today widely circulated showing a couple listening to the proceedings on a new york subway train. And trust me, thats not an easy trick. In the air today, the hearing dominated those seatback tv screens on the planes so equipped. The Television ChefAndrew Zimmern noted on his flight no one is reading a magazine, no one is talking. A woman from new york sent this out. When other women on your jetblue flight are watching the Cavity Gnaw Hearings with you, its hard not to feel the impact dr. Fords testimony has on the greater american public. And there was the daughter who shared the picture of her father watching the kavanagh hearing while undergoing chemotherapy treatments. Oh, americans watched and listened today, but political divides as we have chronicled here tonight, being what they are, people saw and heard Different Things today. That conversation continues tonight. It continues first thing tomorrow morning. The stakes couldnt be higher. It is time here on the east coast, at least, for this long day to come to an end. And that is our broadcast for this thursday night. Thank you so very much for being with us. For all of it, and good night from nbc news headquarters here in new york