Mexicans would pay for it, to use the money to take land away from farmers and ranchers on the border of the United States. How can any conservative support this guy . Senator, the definition of conservative has changed so fast in our lifetime its unbelievable. We need a dictionary to keep up with it. Senator michael bennet, democrat from colorado. Thank you, sir. Stay safe on the trail. Thats all we have for tonight. Well be back tomorrow with more meet the press daily. Ari melber is picking it up. Good evening to you. We begin here with Breaking News rocking washington. Moment of truth. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that is what faces the nation tonight. Right now as she stepped out and made this announcement just within the last hour. Im announcing the House Of Representatives moving forward with an official Impeachment Inquiry. Im directing our six committees to proceed with their
investigations under that umbrella of Impeachment Inquiry. The president must be held accountable. No one is above the law. Many House Democrats already said they were conducting this exact Impeachment Inquiry, but never the Speaker Of The House, never like this, she is the one who decides if there will ever be a floor vote to impeach the president. Why not . Why now . Heres the speaker. This week the president happens admitted to asking the president of ukraine to take actions which would benefit him politically. The actions of the Trump Presidency revealed a dishonorable fact of the president s betrayal of his oath of office, betrayal of our National Security, and betrayal of the integrity of our elections. And in moments republicans expected to come out and give their first major formal oncamera response to this news that the speaker made. We will monitor that and show any excerpts as warranted. We have a lot more reporting
and a fuller breakdown on where the Impeachment Charge is heading later in this show, but right now i want to get to the latest with msnbcs heidi przybyla, Michelle Goldberg and Jason Johnson and former federal prosecutor joyce vance. Heidi, what did Speaker Pelosi change with her announcement . According to a number of lawmakers who i talked to, ari, it was both messaging, and by putting all of these inquiries under a formal Impeachment Umbrella, as she put it, they believe and it is their legal theory that they will have greater access through the court system to documents and theyll be able to compel witnesses more easily. And it is also partly the messaging, ari. In that meeting im told by several members who attended she said that, look, this is not just a case of the president asking a foreign country to dig up dirt on their political opponent, on his political opponent, but to actually
manufacture evidence against him because the ukrainians have already disputed these charges at the highest level. In terms of this prosecutor was dismissed. So, heidi, your reporting this has been quite a day on the hill with the meetings and this dramatic announcement. The speaker was outlining why ukraine is different which many of her members already felt, which is that there was already impeachable conduct. She did outline this was a new level, in her words, corruption by the president. She also outlined a phone call today that she had with the president that was very interesting, ari. I got a readout on that. That the president actually said to nancy pelosi, hey, can we do something about this . Whistleblower complaint. Can we work something out . And she said, yes, you can tell your people to obey the law. So she quickly swatted that down and made it clear that it is full steam ahead. Now, it is unclear, though for our viewers, a little more contense on that. Youre reporting that the speaker and the president spoke today. Hes had a busy day at the u. N. , but youre saying that the pressure led to this call . Dont know what specifically set up the call, but we do know that there was a call between the two and in the call donald trump used language that weve heard him use before in terms of asking the speaker what we can do about this whistleblower complaint. How we can possibly work something out. Interesting. Let me she swatted that down, ari. Let me bring in Michelle Goldberg. Youve been writing and handicapping a lot of what the speakers been doing. I want to play sound of the speaker earlier today at one of her events talking about this ukraine issue specifically and why in her view is an abuse of power. Take a look. We had many other, shall we say, candidates for Impeachable Offense in terms of the constitution, but this one is the most understandable by the public. Your view of what the speaker did tonight. Well, first of all, im grateful and relieved, you know,
because ive been very critical of nancy pelosi on this show, in my column yesterday. I am so glad that she is finally on board and that somebody in this country has taken charge of holding the president accountable. But its interesting because when ive talked to people in the past about why shes been so reticent on impeachment, often theyve said the public isnt there. For proimpeachment people thats been very frustrating because its the job of Democratic Leaders to lead Public Opinion rather than follow it, but i do think something changes in that this is a much more this is something that you can say in a few sentences, right . You dont have to read this incredibly dense report to understand just how corrupt what trump tried to do is. Our whole panel stays. Lets listen in to republican Leader Mccarthy. Investigate something in the back when you cannot find any reason to impeach this president. This election is over. I realize 2016 did not turn out the way Speaker Pelosi wanted it to happen, but she cannot change
the laws of this congress. She cannot unilaterally decide were in an Impeachment Inquiry. What she said today made difference of whats been going on. Its no different than what nadlers been trying to do. Its time to put the public before politics. Thank you. Mr. , speaker, are you afraid that youre on the wrong side of this . A Brief Statement from Leader Mccarthy there. Michelle, what we see there is pelosi has done Something Big enough that there is a need for the president to call her, for the House Minority republicans to respond, although they didnt say much in content. Right. As you were saying. Well, i think it was extremely striking how little they said to actually make an Affirmative Defense of trump. Similarly we had a unanimous vote today in the senate to on a motion to basically or a resolution saying that they should release this whistleblowers complaint. And so to be honest, im like a little bit flabbergasted by all
the Senate Republicans voting in favor of that, and im a little unsure about what the strategy is of coming out with such a tepid statement, not even in defense of the president , but asupposing nancy pelosi. I mean, it makes me wonder if they assume that Something Bigger is coming down the pike but i really just dont know. So, i mean, i think a lot of democrats are relieved that were finally at a moment because as the republicans are going to try and say, the democrats are relitigating 2016. And thats not the case. The democrats are finally saying there are so many egregious acts committed by this president and hes been aided and abetted by people in his party. This is now something where hes actively moving towards 2020. On such a big news night, i dont want to make light, but i dont remember Joe Biden Running in 2016. That is true. Right. As i understand it, one of the potential nominees no one knows whats going to happen and a member of the obama
administration and a contender to run against trump is the target of what if any other citizen would do could been an Illegal Campaign international conspiracy. Right. Which is what some democrats were concerned trump did in 2016 against hillary clinton. Trump pretty much assumes that biden will be the democratic nominee. So his conversations with ukraine, whether he thinks that, you know, the transcripts will show that hes completely absolved of this or not, are highly problematic. The whole panel stays. I am learning here as we are reporting this out that other Democratic Leaders, clyburn and steny hoyer, members of Nancy Pelosis leadership, have now formally jumped in and endorsed the Impeachment Probe. Jason johnson, i think we have a count somewhere that we can put up, but it is a count that has grown quite a bit from just 24 hours ago tonight. Your reaction to what you think it means that pelosi did . Because we havent heard from you yet. And these other members jumping in. Well, first, we start with the republicans. Mccarthy basically did, like, the congressional version of thats it, thats the tweet. He had nothing to say. He just had to put a statement out there because if he didnt the news story was going to completely overshadow anything republicans would try to say in the next 24 hours. Ari, what this says to me is something ive always doubted about pelosi but now we know its true, she can count and she can read a calender. She obviously has been behind the scenes all along saying, all right, look, i dont have the numbers, but when you see seven vulnerable democratic freshmen write an oped saying its time for impeachment, pelosi has clearly pocketed all the votes that she needs and now shes rolling this all slowly. Now, the question is simply a matter of were not worried if theres going to be a vote. Its a matter of when the vote is going to happen. We dont know if thats going to be in january, february or September Of 2020 and force a bunch of vulnerable senators on the republican side to vote for this president right before an election. And thats the big question. Did Speaker Pelosi tonight create an irreversible road towards a house floor vote on impeachment . And if so, that appreciatably increases the odds that President Trump will become one of the few president s in history to face impeachment. Right. Or did she leave herself on offramp. I was just talking to my control room. Some of its happening too fast to update our Impeachment Count. Many nights that hasnt been the case. Tonight the Impeachment Count growing so fast we dont have it up on the screen. Ive got two brandnew statements from Democratic Leaders telling us theyre jumping in. Right. So we are now with, jason, about 40 votes among the democrats or less to having the constitutionally required majority in the house to impeach the sitting president. Thats a big deal. Everyone stays, as promised, here about ten minutes into our broadcast. I want to dig in a little bit more as to what just happened. Washington on fire right now so lets go through what occurred in the last 24 hours. The democratic speaker backs an Impeachment Probe. The republican senator pushed for this whistleblower complaint. The president announced a cave to democratic demands. He claims hell release notes on the ukraine call. Congress waiting to see if he follows through with that
tomorrow. This wave of House Democrats weve been reporting in real time, new members in the last ten minutes since we came on the air, jumping in to back a trump Impeachment Probe for the first time. Last night as i was mentioning, we had 136 democrats supporting impeachment. That number now is over 180. Those numbers are snowballing as the panelists were just discussing, thanks to some people in freshmen and swing districts with National Security backgrounds who came out with this rare joint Public Statement backing impeachment. These new members of the impeachment caucus are basically moderates and holdouts. These are the democrats who were holding back after the Mueller Report, holding back an bob mueller testified to congress. That was exactly two months ago today, but say they are moved by the reports that trump abused his power and his control over Taxpayer Funds to use it as a Bargaining Chip within that scandal. Trump has now admitted to key parts of this, including that financial pressure. Here it was just this morning. Very important, i want other countries to put up money. I think its unfair that we put up the money. Then people called me they said, oh, let it go and i let it go, but we paid the money. The money was paid. As pelosi pushes House Democrats demanding this full whistleblower complaint, more evidence and answers from Donald Trumps intel chief who testifies thursday. Meanwhile, adam schiff says today hes working with this whistleblowers lawyer to get them to testify, and as mentioned, the Senate Unanimously passed a resolution that the complaint must be given over to the intel committees. If it sounds like a lots happening at once in response to Donald Trumps violation of the rules and in some cases law, thats because it is. And it also shows how postmueller donald trump may have felt momentarily like he was in some sort of clear. Because it was right after mueller testified that he dialed up foreign leaders for what is basically a new attempted collusion Plot Flagrantly defying the rule of law and then now perhaps bizarrely confessing in public. So were seethiing this all com together. To, yes, all people who are often seen as the conscience of the modern democratic party. Take a look at a statesman and civil rights icon. If you havent seen this yet, john lewis now saying enough is enough. I believe, i truly believe the time to begin Impeachment Proceedings against this president has come. To delay or to do otherwise would betray the foundation of our democracy. Christina, where does that idealism fit into what has been such a hardknuckle political battle . Well, i think that so many people in this country dont want impeachment, we dont want to think that someone who has taken an oath to protect the entire nation would actually do things to work against our best
interests, and, you know, john lewis is obviously a great civil rights icon, but hes also not someone who goes into a battle who is not prepared and hasnt really thought about these things. We know that hes a patriot. We know that he loves this nation and i think it pains him to actually have to say that donald trump has done these things and we have to move forward with this. But, i mean, if we are, you know, in this civil rights vein then i say impeachment now, impeachment tomorrow, impeachment forever, if thats going to be the case because this president has clearly shown us that he cares about himself and his businesses more than he cares about the nation and the good will of the american people. Joyce vance is also with us. Federal prosecutor that weve come to rely on and who we should mention, as we often do, was sought by the house to testify on this very issue. Appreciate you being a part of this and your patience tonight. I give you an open swing. Everything weve heard thus far, including these new democrats just this hour jumping in. As well as the constitutional significance of the ukraine
scandal being about what President Trump did in Office Rather than in some cases earlier questions about acts before he became president. You know, that is an incredibly important point, ari. For so many people the mueller investigation, the russia investigation was very difficult to grasp. Both because the legal charges were a little bit confusing. They were complex. But also because the conduct happened when President Trump was still candidate trump. Now were talking about misconduct that he committed while sitting in the oval office. Withholding congressional funds. Trying to get ukraine to deliver the goods on a political opponent in exchange for that aid. And thats something that i think people can comprehend easily. As weve heard some of the politicians say tonight, impeachment has both a political component and a legal one and its important for the country to be able to come along with congress. There have been complaints that maybe congress should have been leading, but the reality here is
that now trump has committed something, as you pointed out, on the eve of the release of the Mueller Report and bob muellers testimony when perhaps you would think he would have learned a lesson. He was presented as someone who is politically naive, who didnt understand this sort of conduct involving foreign nations in elections was wrong, and yet he trod right back the same direction. Thats something everyone can understand. Yeah, its striking. Heidi, before i lose you to do more reporting there on this busy evening, take a listen to a little bit more of what Speaker Pelosi laid out today. There is no requirement there be a quid pro quo in the conversation. If the president brings up he wants them to investigate something, thats of his political opponent, that is selfevident that it is not right. We dont ask Foreign Governments to help us in our elections. Heidi, we saw her and Speaker Pelosi is such a masterful politician in the sense of knowing where her caucus is and also communicating. We saw her tee this up over the course of the day. Christina earlier referring to the and michelle and many of our panelists to how we got here, which was a lot of pressure and back and forth as she tries to do what she has to do with holding her majority caucus. I wonder what you can tell us, heidi, what is coming out of the speakers office. Can she ever unring this bell, is there an offramp in any way or would you expect a floor vote on impeachment on this president at some point . So as of this tuesday in september i would say that we only have an inquiry at this point, were going to know darn sure very fast because, ari, on thursday if the dni does not produce that whistleblower complaint then what is going to happen is that the legal Brass Knuckles will come out and they
will use every resource they can to rain down on members of the trump administration. But it all depends on what specifically is in that whistleblower complaint. The speaker is right. Ive talked to a number of members who said, look, you dont need to articulate the quid pro quo for you to execute the quid pro quo. If youre withholding military aid at the same time that youre pressuring the leader to essentially in the speakers words manufacture and cook up evidence because, again, i cant stress enough that her message in this meeting was that the reason why this is so nefarious is that the ukrainians themselves had already determined right. And said on the record that none of this had any merit. That the investigation itself had been shuttered for about a year, and so thursday will be a real inflection point. That is why the president obviously is so disturbed that he would bring it up in a phone call and say to Speaker Pelosi what can we do to work this out about this whistleblower
complaint . Striking. Heidi przybyla on a busy night. Thank you. Reporting from capitol hill. Joyce vance, i want to ask you one more thing, and that really to lay it out, is if you look at the anyone else by the new york times, peter baker, we have gone from no collusion to according to the times, quote, so what if i did . The man who once said he could shoot one on fifth avenue in manhattan without consequence seems to be testing whether he can do the political equivalent. Before we lose your analysis, i wonder what you think about that. Because in some ways the trump era exhausts precisely because of the way that he governs, if you want to call it governing, and things that were drip, drip, drip over i recall covering and i know you do months in the Mueller Collusion Probe really in this scandal on ukraine took about a week and a half. You had all the usual parts. Rudy giuliani clumsily, messily does it, but tries to get the mess on his own suit to protect the president. We know that maneuver. The president comes out and admits little pieces and then bargains in public and private. Heidi saying hes saying to
pelosi, hey, what can we work out here . Which may be an echo of the way he talks to the ukrainian president. He tweets today from the u. N. Im going to release part of the ukraine notes. All of this seems to be him testing, yep, i did it, what are you really going to do . This is really the ultimate expression of how trump governs or as you say doesnt. Its trump trying to deal with the russia investigation with no one else in the room who knows whats going on. Its trump without those guardrails that protected him from the worst mistakes that he would have made on his own, and i think that thats, frankly, why weve seen this accelerate so quickly. What we dont know here is i think in many ways as interesting as what we do know. What should have happened here is that once the Inspector General for the Intelligence Community deemed that this whistleblower report was both credible and urgent, it should have been transferred by the director of National Intelligence almost automatically in seven days to congress. There was no reason for congress or the Justice Department to know that it even existed. But somehow that happened and somehow the Justice Department, the office of Legal Counsel ended up making this really flimsy decision that says, well, dni, you dont have to transfer it to congress because the misconduct doesnt involve a member of the Intelligence Community who you have authorization to control. Which is really odd since we now know that that conduct was by the president of the United States. So still unanswered here is this issue of how did this get loose from the dni yep. And get into the white house or doj . That speaks to trump without his guardrails in place. Its interesting to hear you lay it out like that because youre putting your finger on the fact there is a bit of Bad Lawyering going on, potentially, Bad Lawyering by giuliani and potentially on the president s behalf at the doj which in some ways is backfiring because by making their circuitous argument they end up revealing certain
things and the pressure going up. Joyce, appreciate you. Always good to see you. I turn now to the house Intelligence Committee. Chairman schiff revealing these talks are under way to have the whistleblower come speak. Also the highstakes hearing on thursday where the director of National Intelligence who we were just discussing dealing with his lawyering is withholding a whistleblower complaint, again, remember they are required under law to give to congress. We bring in a new member of our Analysis Team here. California congressman Eric Swalwell who, of course, serves on the Intelligence Committee as well as the Judiciary Committee. I know its busy. Thanks for joining me from the hill tonight. Of course, ari. Thanks for having me on. Lets start with this. What changed based on what Speaker Pelosi said tonight . Urgency of the issue. I mean, of course, this is not to dismiss the lawful inquiries into the president cashing in on access to the oval office, Obstructing Justice in the Mueller Probe, working with the russians to win his election. That is still ongoing. But here in real time he is
asking a Foreign Government for help, and when you ask someone for help, you owe them something, and that means at some point in time he would put another countrys interests ahead of americas. Thats betrayal. That means we have to act. You say you have to act. Does that mean, in your view, Speaker Pelosis committed by backing this Impeachment Probe to having a vote on impeachment . Well, again, i dont want to speak for her. I think we are moving in that direction. There is a big day coming on thursday where the whistleblower complaint, again, were just operating right now under what the president has copped to, right . Right. Hes not denying what has gone on, but we dont know if this complaint also articulates other concerns or a completely different concern. We know were entitled to it and we know that its urgent and that its credible. So if we dont get that by thursday i think that certainly is obstruction of congress and something that i would support impeachment for. You would support if this ultimately goes on and theres never a floor vote in the united
states house on impeaching President Trump, do you view then what Speaker Pelosi did tonight as not enough . No, no, no. I think she is just, you know, prioritizing this urgent issue as something we have to work on right now. Shes not shes not saying that the other issues and the other investigations wont go on, but there is an urgency, you know, to this. And, you know, the president should turn over the whistleblower complaint. Were not really going to give much credibility to whats in the president ial edited transcripts. Weve seen them turn over false transcripts and false videos in the past. I understand that. I think our viewers are up to date on that. What im getting at is, for folks who are watching Speaker Pelosi say tonight she backs on Impeachment Inquiry, many people in the Democratic Caucus had previously said thats what was going on, true . Yes. In a bottomup way if she doesnt ultimately hold a floor vote, is that a disappointment to you in your role as a member of the two key committees. Is that what the democrats think has advanced tonight or has it not really advanced . If we hold a floor vote i think its clear that the rule of law has been violated. Our National Security has been jeopardized. Im not going to prejudge what shes going to do. I think he should have been impeached a long time ago. There is an urgency here. There decision night to involve herself and say its her priority to have these investigations shows the seriousness of what the president has done. Weve updated our graphics here and were at 186 democrats. An alltime high. Backing this Impeachment Probe. As you know, you only need 218 total. Are you and other democrats going to now try to rally . I mean, who are the holdouts now . Who are the remainder . Weve seen some of the socalled freshmen swing members and other centrists come out. Yeah, again, its a personal decision for each member, but what we are telling those members who have not yet supported it is if you do nothing, this president is going
to get worse. Hes proven himself to only get worse. And second, were lowering the conduct for future president s. Again, we dont have to look at what he did with the 2016 election. We have an election coming up that hes already inviting another country to help him with. We have to act now. Like, its now. Is that part of the no time to screw around. Is that part of the democratic message, that he tried to collude in 2016 when russia initiated and now by 2020 hes sort of gotten good at it and hes trying to collude again but hes initiating . A leopard doesnt change its spots, essentially. Again, if this was the only thing he had done. If he hadnt cashed in on access to the oval office, work with the russians, this is still worthy of an impeachment investigation. Thats what were saying. Were you in the meeting today . I was in the Leadership Meeting with the speaker and the caucus meeting that followed. I know there is some stuff you guys arent going to tell us. We get that. Is there anything you can tell us, though, about what it was like in there . Because the speaker who came out and addressed the nation. She almost seemed to be in State Of The Union mood. Im just listening and learning as i go. Im hearing from you. That doesnt mean there is going to be a floor vote. That doesnt mean we know what the future is. A lot of people around the country are looking up, they see on the news pelosi backs impeachment after trump trump admits ukraine scandal. Theyre thinking that means there is at least going to be a vote on impeachment if not him actually being impeached. So with that space in between, again, in fairness to you, what else can you tell us about the meeting or her seriousness or her sort of gravitas on this . Yeah. Or are we going to be in two or three or four weeks and hear, well, theres a lot of Committee Meetings and we just have to wait and wait and wait, some folks, as you know, are tired of waiting in your caucus. I heard from her an urgency to act. I just saw in the way she left the meeting we really do not have time considering how close we are to an upcoming election and the Inspector General said this is urgent and credible. I met with the Inspector General last week with the intelligence
committee and he said it was urgent and credible when the kplapt w complaint was made over a month ago and remains urgent and credible today so lets get moving. Lets get moving. Anything you want people to know out there . I ran my mouth a little bit so i want to give you final words. Again, shes not rushing into this. Thats why so many of us respect her. She has sort of been backed into this but has nowhere to go when president is telling george stephanopoulos. Backed into it by the rising number identify. By the president. By the president s actions . I think the president s action. Sorry, weve tried to work with you on a number of ways, there is nowhere else to go. The National Security is at risk. Understood. Congressman swalwell, in the ven diagram of the committees that the speaker mentioned tonight, you were right in the heart along with some of your colleagues, intelligence, judiciary, busy night. Thank you for coming on the beat. My pleasure. Thanks, ari. Thank you. Michelle, your thoughts on what we just heard. I think its true nadler and
judiciary have already been saying, well, yes, we already started an impeachment hearing, but there has been widely reported internal dissension within the caucus where, you know, pelosi reportedly resented the fact that nadler had sort of gotten out ahead of what she had authorized. You know, nadler was trying to push this further than where a lot of the caucus wanted to go. I think because because they saw the urgency, i mean, the people on the Judiciary Committee, that was one of the they were in the in the center of all of this. They were in the center of, you know, kind of evaluating the Mueller Report. So you had more than half of the democrats on the Judiciary Committee come out for impeachment when it was still not a Majority Position within the Democratic Caucus. Right. I dont know that it matters so much that she takes a vote on whether to authorize an Impeachment Inquiry because you can just because you can just start one in the Judiciary Committee no, i mean a vote on is there going to be a vote on the articles of impeachment or not . Look, i think there is no
question that the Judiciary Committee is going to report out articles of impeachment and it would be i think politically, unless something radically changes, extremely difficult for pelosi then to just bury those articles. Do you agree with that . I completely agree. I mean, i agree with jason as well. Nancy pelosi has always known how to count. Keep in mind, she is the one who wrangled all the democrats together to pass obamacare. Obviously barack obama and rahm emanuel got lots of credit but it was nancy pelosi who was making sure that every single vote was counted. And so in this particular case, i think the frustration that so Many Democrats have had, you know, we have enough. You know, the emoluments clause. Every weekend at the golf courses. I mean, it just seems as though the president has had Brazen Abandon in his behavior and shes saying, wait a minute, i know where our democratic representatives are across the nation and we dont want to do this because we see that the republicans, as ive said several times before, have been acting as though they are agents
of donald trump and not the United States. And briefly, because i have an expert on some of this i want to go to. Before i bring the new voice in, when you see the president claim in public, oh, i welcome in, bring on the impeachment. Then in private were told call nancy and say lets make a deal. What does that tell you . What grown sensible individual would ever want to be impeached . You join a very tiny, tiny club of americans who have essentially been voted on by their colleagues, people sent by the American Public to represent them to say you have not done your job, you have not upheld the promises youve made to the American Public. And as a president , for this president to, you know, bill clintons personal issues were one thing. This is saying donald trump has talked to a foreign entity as a sitting president in the oval office of the United States. Yes. And asked them to interfere in our democracy. And for someone that is inexcusable. For someone like him who does understand brand thats off brand. That puts the peacimpeachmen
ukraine and other abuses of power alleged in his life history forever more. Thats in your brand when its a historical event. Stay with me. As mentioned, weve got a couple of different ways weere coming at this story. You hear this often, worse than watergate. When it comes to donald trump asking ukraine to help him win reelection. Consider what former solicitor general neal katyal says is really worse. Its about as grave an offense as you can imagine. Even Richard Nixon when he ordered the watergate breakin didnt have the imagination to outsource it to a Foreign Government or intelligence service. Here donald trump is doing exactly that. As promised, i want to turn now to richard, he served as a top prosecutor on the Watergate Task force as a former Assistant Attorney in sdny. Also celebrated member of the 9 11 commission. Youve held many different Public Service posts. Appreciate you making time tonight, sir. Thank you for inviting me. I have a lot of questions for you, but i begin with your view of what the speaker has set out tonight and whether you think this is an advancement on the road to articles of impeachment. I think it is. I think she has put this posture of utmost seriousness. It appears to me that Speaker Pelosi is moving toward the appointment of a select committee. I think that would be an Interesting Development in moving this along. And i think what we have seen is the perhaps the straw that breaks the camels back in terms of a discussion of impeachment. And is that, in your view, sir right. Is that straw substantively stronger than the other allegations and incidents that are seen as impeachable because this is, as we were discussing with our expert, something that the president has done in office relating to his reelection and
hes admitted part of it . I think so. I think, however, that this is all cumulative. To the idea that the president has espoused soliciting help from Foreign Governments in connection with his own personal political needs, and to do this is a departure from the normative behavior of a president of the United States. And its very dangerous. Are we choosing up sides now in our political process to solicit help from different governments and Different Countries well, you said asking for Different Things from our country. You said normative. Let me ask you this, in your view based on whats publicly known, is it an impeachable abuse of power . I think it is abusive and i think it goes along with the disregard that the president has shown for the way in which our country yeah. Has operated in the past
right. In terms of balance of power. The ignoring of subpoenas, the bogus claims of executive privilege, the refusal to honor subpoenas for documents and testimony, all these things along with yeah. The advice to witnesses in the Mueller Probe not to cooperate with mueller, all of these things are cumulative yeah. To behavior that is so different from what we have come to expect from the Chief Executive of the United States and the chief Law Enforcement officer. Yeah. You remember your contemporary Carl Bernstein . I do. Heres what he has to say about the ukraine scandal. I keep getting asked, are there echos of watergate in this . And there are in the following ways. Watergate was very much an attempt by Richard Nixon to
undermine the Democratic Electoral process. Do you agree with the way he puts it there . Well, yes, there are many analogies to watergate and to the behaviors of the Richard Nixon, but at the end of the day, i would note that Richard Nixon exhibited a sense of shame. We have not yet seen that. In this president. I want to keep you here and turn to Jason Johnson and talk about something that can get lost, which is were dealing with a president who admitting things that may be illegal and may be impeachable. The congress will decide. But its not coming out of the blue, as richard and others are mentioning, it comes in the context of a president who has had more aides indicted earlier in his presidency than anyone in history at this stage of their
presidency and Whose Campaign manager and lawyer are sitting in jail right now. Im going to put up so everyone can remember. Youve got paul manafort, youve got michael cohen, youve got mike flynn, papadopoulos, gates, thats five individuals, jason, who have been convicted and pled guilty in every in every facet. So no debate whatsoever. Mr. Stone remains legally presumed innocent but hes the president s longest adviser. Hes awaiting trial right. On some serious obstruction issues. Jason, take a look at the historical timeline, which i think on a night is significant. Those are the aides charged. Now look at the timeline. This is where donald trump is. Obama eight years and a zero. President clinton three. Nixon 12. Though those coming much later. Donald trump is record breaking when it comes to indictments and convictions of his own aides. Do you think that is an important piece of living Historical Context as the
congress decides whether to go down this this very constitutionally drastic role of potentially considering articles of impeachment . Oh, definitely, ari, because all of these scandals, all of thee indictments, you know, a lot of them were summarized in the Mueller Report, and basically ever since the Mueller Report dropped, like, congress has been waiting for nancy pelosi to say get the strap, right . Its time to go. We know who this guy is. Its time to escalate. Its time to move forward. And so we already know, the country knows, the voters know, the caucusgoers in iowa know, the members of Congress Already know the president has engaged in impeachable behavior. The biggest impediment thus far had actually been Speaker Pelosi herself. One part of it is is she could count, but also she had sort of thrown water on the whole thing all along, well, i dont really know, we got to have the public lead, its got to be a bipartisan event. Now she recognizes that we have moved past the point. So to go to your question, yes, we have history thats built up
to this point that we knew what was coming, on top of that, there is no offramp. Were all going off this bridge together. There is no way after what pelosi announced today that in three months or four months or five months by the time we are halfway through Super Tuesday that she could not have had some sort of floor vote and its going to be very critical for her to do something before people get frustrated. You talk about frustration. Youre hitting it. Thats the key question. Thats what weve been reporting out. She did, i should note, back off talk of a Celebrity Committee and say, no, its going to be judiciary, which was seen by many progressives and proimpeachment people in the caucus as a sign of supporting jerry nadler and being progressive. Jason, you know what we do. We love you. Were going to clip that sound and play it back to you in three months if what you say has not happened. I dont have as good a crystal ball as you. The whole panel stays. Danielle joins me here in new york. Were going to add more folks. Were in breaking coverage. Right before Speaker Pelosi made this announcement of an Impeachment Probe the senate did something itself, it unanimously passed a resolution, nonbinding but unanimous, that is demanding something unusual, that donald trump release the ukraine whistleblower complaint to the Intelligence Committees. Its unusual because hes supposed to have already done it under the law, but its politically interesting because it required something you dont see very often. 100 senators agreeing on something trump related. No objections. Think about how rare that is. Meanwhile, there are a wide range of views on some of these scandals when we talk about a breaking point. Take a look briefly at whats happening at Donald TrumpsFavorite Television network. There is no known evidence that biden did anything wrong. The whole thing involved corruption in ukraine. Earlier this year a ukrainian official said there was no evidence of any wrongdoing by joe biden or his son hunter. The real issue here is the phone call, the claim that the president pressured a foreign leader to investigate a political rival, and the failure to pass the whistleblower complaint to congress. If the president said, you know, ill give you the money but you got to investigate joe biden, that is really off the rails wrong. Right. But if its something else, you know, it would be nice to know what it is. It would be nice to know. Joining me now in our rolling coverage, Mother Jones Washington Bureau chief david corn. He was reporting on this story today, including the house jostling how to deal with what Speaker Pelosi announced. And as mentioned. Danielle of the center for american progress. Good to see everyone. David, what do you see as different as this town you live in, that youve covered for so long, and is Speaker Pelosi leaving herself, as jason says, no offramp . That there will be a floor vote on articles on impeachment or do you see this as something that continues to play out in baby steps . Jasons a smart fellow, but i think in politics there is
always an offramp. We may not be able to envision it now, but politicians can squirm out of things if they choose to, but whats different is that nancy pelosi is finally calling the thing that existed the thing that it is. We have had six investigations. Jerry nadlers talked about this being an Impeachment Inquiry, a preinquiry, a prepreinquiry, whatever you want to call it. What she is saying all these committees investigating various aspects of trumps drugs, emoluments, obstruction of justice, obstruction of congress, Campaign Finance violations, all that. Its all now under an umbrella and that umbrella has the big word Impeachment Uppnder it whi means at the end of the day when these investigations are done, and they still may take some time, congress Isnt Moving Fast and david youve been reporting out whats been going on within the sort of democratic liberal ecosystem. Yeah. There has been progressives, including aoc today, who were basically rallying behind jerry
nadler. Whatever the criticisms and weve aired some of them on this very show about how some of the hearings have gone, but saying on the liberal side they still see him as the best person to take on trump. What does that mean well, what happened do you think any of that pressure is getting to pelosi . Well, what shes doing is going to have all of these committees basically to report to him at the end of the day. Heres what we found and heres information that may be an Impeachable Offense. Its still going to be up to the house Judiciary Committee, unless she does something differently, but this is how it would work under what we know now, to come up with articles of impeachment and move forward with that. This is a process that could take time. Indeed, she and others have not been happy with him getting out front. There was talk today of setting up a select committee to look at the ukraine issue and other matters, but the progressives fought back against that. They did look at it, rightly or wrongly, deluding Jerry Nadlers standing here. Including Nadlers Committee and well see how long it takes them to come up with conclusions to
these various probes and whether they report to him that there are Impeachable Offenses that should go into articles of impeachment. Danielle . Im just so happy that this is finally happening. Can i just say that . Its like im going to tell you, some democrats that weve heard from and some critics of donald trump say they come to this more in sorrow, its sad to impeach a president. Youre honestly saying based about what you think this president has done and got away with youre happy . Yes. Overall this is bad for our democracy and our country, of course it is. Weve been in a sorrowful place for a while. Id much rather have a president who didnt break and abuse all of our norms, but now that we do have one, im very happy that we are at the point as david said calling the thing what it is. And your position is you Dont Support Impeaching Trump because you disagree with him politically, because of his actions. Right. Of course not. I didnt agree with george bush. I didnt agree with a whole bunch of republican president s but they did not, to my knowledge, do all of these horrible, obviously Impeachable Offenses. And, you know, i applaud the democratic members who came out, the ones who are in republicanleaning districts who are, you know, more vulnerable than people like nancy pelosi and jerry nadler and said, look, we cant stand for this anymore. I think that is what helped put her, you know, at ease to say, okay, we need to do this. Do you think thats sort of the hidden story of this . They have deliberately stayed off the spotlight. They stay off sometimes tv. But they came out, as you say. Yeah, i think it helped. That was part of the dam breaking, was having some more moderate, some of these National Security freshmen coming out and saying this is ridiculous, we have to do something. No one sells going to stop this president unless we do it. Since weve come on the air weve been tabulating the growing caucus backing Impeachment Probe. Its now up to 187. That is more than it was ten minutes ago. But you know who was not doing a happy dance in public was Speaker Pelosi. She emphasized the sadness of
it. Take a look. Its really a sad day for our country, actually. I feel very sad about it. And i hope that the republicans will join us, as they have joined in the senate in unanimous consent, passing passing a resolution for the release of the information. I hope the republicans will join us in doing that tomorrow. But this is a sad day. Michelle, we dont sit here as armchair emotional experts, but her stated sadness is consistent with what she has said publicly, which is that this was not her first instinct or her second or her third. The story were getting from the speechs office in the reporting were doing and heidi was sharing this and weve heard this today before i came on the air is they werent planning to go this way. She didnt want to do this. Schiff and the whistleblower took it up a notch. Ive been speaking to people in congress who have been genuinely frustrated and thought she was genuinely trying to pour
cold water on Jerry Nadlers efforts to keep the option of reporting out articles of impeachment alive. She did not want this. I think shes i think she thought and probably still does think that its bad politics that she wanted, you know shes a master legislator. What she has wanted to is legislate since taking the majority. Theyve passed all of these, you know, pretty excellent bills that have gone nowhere and theres been a lot of frustration that they havent been able to break through, but, you know, you cant legislate in this environment, right . Its like trying to renovate a house thats on fire. So i think that although shes clearly sad that weve gotten to this point, i dont think theres anything wrong with being profoundly relieved that she now recognizes and that there is now consensus about the gravity of the National Emergency that were in. Yeah, i agree 100 , and i do think that people will give nancy pelosi credit for thinking about what this means politically and i dont think thats a terrible thing to say
that about the leader of the house caucus. That she needs to think about what this means in political terms, but at the end of the day, when the house is on fire, sometimes you have to put aside the Renovation Projects as you say to go with that metaphor a little bit longer and fix the problem. Youre getting very close to david corns sweet spot. I dont want to get too musical on such a big news night, david, but were very perilously close to a Talking Heads Burning Down The House reference. I was thinking of a song by nas trust. Which has a great line. I wanted to get it right. If youre scared to take chances, youll never have the answers. Well, now we have a fullfledged investigation that well get to the bottom hopefully of ukraine. Business maybe even the senate will participate and this will give impetus to the other investigations that the democrats have really failed i think in a major way to keep center stage and to tell the story of trumps various corruptions to the american
public. Under the Impeachment Umbrella as were calling it now, hopefully theyll have more success in telling in sharing with the public all these details that can so often get lost in the chaos and disinformation that trump spreads. Well, shoutout to nas. Jason, who knew the road to washington led through queens bridge . Well, i mean, look, ill add snoop. It dont stop. Were at 187 on the impeachment clock. Wow. Wok. Wow. As the rest of the Night Goes On you can tell were not taking commercials because everyone is losing it. But its going to keep going. Heres what i think is really critical, honestly, about putting that number up, ari. You dont want to be the last person to come forward. Yeah, well put up the 187 is just in the last ten minutes, literally. Well put that back up. Go ahead, jason. Exactly. So as everybody sees this number, those vulnerable members, their staffers are calling them now, look, its at 187. We could be 192. Nobodys going to get mad at us for that. Right . So the building of this momentum is a huge part of why not only pelosi kind of knew this was the point that everybody was at, but its also an opportunity for people who might have been vulnerable, who might for peoplt have been vulnerable, might have been nervous im guessing the last people who will come forward and officially announce will come from very blue, very safe districts which will allow them to provide cover. But its still a bit of a task. Its not a burden in the hand yet to get those 31 votes. No kidding. She was waiting i think to get closer before considering what she did today. But the ukraine scandal forced her hand and created more momentum. Weve reported it. News viewers have been following this. Everyone does remember her saying well were not close to a majority, thats a hypothetical. That was only a few months ago. And then when pressed is this an Impeachment Probe, she said what
do you mean, i concede, this is what were doing. She was basically trying to get some credit for impeachment. There has been a shift, where does it end . I dont know. Jason johnson, thanks for being with us. The rest of the panel stays and i want to talk about a diplomat as we talk about the rest of this story. Donald trump saying now he will actually release notes to his staff of his call with the president of ukraine. He hasnt done it yet. It comes after trump spent several days completely dancing around the issue, including whether he abused Taxpayer Funds in his plot to get his rival investigated. Delaying military aid given the whistleblower complaint p. I didnt delay anything. We paid the military aid to the best of my knowledge. We send so much money not only to ukraine but other places, and why isnt germany spending more money, why isnt france, why arent other countries in europe helping ukraine more . Why is it always the united
states . As far as withholding funds, those funds were paid, they were fully paid. But my complaint has always been and ill with hold again and ill continue to with hold as such time europe and other nations contribute to ukraine, because theyre not doing it. Its the United States. Trump bobbing and weaving while his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani admits there was a personal process to pressure ukraine for these benefits and hes claiming it was at the request of the State Department. The State Department called me and said would i take the two or three to the President Elect to now the president , and i talked to him and he gave me enormously important facts. I conveyed them all to the State Department. Unlike the media lies, fake news i wasnt operating on my own. Im joined now by the former u. S. Ambassador to russia. Is the president now saying he will release ukrainian call notes tomorrow, something you said you had concerns about that becoming a precedent. Your view of that and the wider issues tonight. Ari, im 100 against that. I was ambassador to moscow but worked three years at the National Security council with president obama, worked lots of calls and a president of the United States, a democrat, republican, needs to conduct diplomacy without having to release transcripts of that. If we do this, that means every Prime Minister or president that talks to either President Trump or the future will now selfsensor themselves. Im against it on that ground but im especially against it because its a divisionary tactic. We need to know what is in the complaint from the whistleblower. And i think it is naive. I think its way to premature to assume that everything that that whistleblower did and was worried about was just this one phone call. I have my your view is i think its wrong. Your view if someone that high up in the u. S. Government risking everything not only their career but theyre investigating the investigators, Andrew Mccabe the former fbi acting director said they tried to get an and someone took that risk from just a few notes from one call. You think they have a bigger plot and thats why that whistleblower needs to face congress. I dont know. I do know one thing, its bad to release transcripts of president ial calls. Thats a bad pres dependent, and it is the law to release the whistleblower complaint to the u. S. Congress. Its not that they should. It is the law. The second point is really important. Again, im not an intelligence
officer but i worked for five years with many people in the Intelligence Community. These are patriots. These are hard core patriots. You do not take this action lightly. I think youre right, its likely Career Ending for whoever this person is. And so just for me to think this is based on one phone call, ive just got to believe theres more to this story and we need to have the whole story. Youre doing the analysis of being in these rooms where most of us have not been in. Youre not reporting out information in the sense of what is known, but i think its very telling as a way to help us understand. And also the whistleblower complaint is what the administration is hiding. Even violating the law. The notes to the call is not what theyre hiding. Its what the president is tweeting about. You know, ive been alive long enough in the trump era to know the stuff hes tweeting about is more in his interest. And the facts theyre hiding might be the Facts Congress should look at without prejudging whats in there. Ambassador, stay with me. Richard, i want to read to you when you think about the congressional interplay here, the Breaking News coming fast and furious. Chairman schiff now putting out this new statement, posting it online as folks do to twitter. Its bad enough trump sought help from a foreign power in the last election. Worst still he obstructed the investigation. Now hes using his office to coerce another country to interfere in 2020. I fully support Impeachment Inquiry. Richard, your view of this as it relates to where that inquiry goes. I think ambassador mcfalls put hisfier right on it. We need to see the report from the whistleblower. At great risk as has been said here, this individual who is no doubt a senior person who has served in different administrations has taken the responsibility of analyzing what wept on in that call and perhaps
other things that are included in the report and decided that it must be revealed. Pursuant to the law. And now we have unanimity in the senate. Lets take a look at it, and then well be able to determine how serious this is in consideration of the cumulative effect of what has gone before this by this president. As we draw to a close a very busy hour i want to do something we sometimes do on big nights which is a bit of a factual lightening round, and i want to ask each of you in a single sentence to wrap it up for us and reflect what did Speaker Pelosi do or accomplish tonight. For viewers joining us of course the speaker came out for the first time, addressed the nation and says she is backing an Impeachment Inquiry into the sitting president and that has skyrocketed the number of democrats who now support that inquiry. They are within 35 votes of
having a Standing Majority to impeach the president should they decide to do that. Lets go around with a sentence each. Michelle, what did the speaker do tonight . I think she finally held him accountable. I mean, hes been unleashed since the end of the mueller investigation. If nothing else, the fact of this investigation could potentially curtail his worst instincts. Daniel . I agree. I think she started the accountability clock. I think also she has started to really unite her caucus around this. David . With the addition of a new scandal shes finally made it a priority of the democrats in congress to tell the story about trumps multiple corruptions. Ambassador mcfall . Its a necessary action to preserve our democracy but its also a sad day. I agree with Speaker Pelosi, this is not an exciting day for me. This is sad day and a sad moment in american history. Richard . Speaker pelosi has taken an important step in alerting the
country and alerting her caucus to the fact that she has now put her standing behind a full investigation that could that could lead to the impeachment of the president. I want to give a special thanks to each of the panelists you see on your screen and everyone who joined us for an hour of rollicking breaking new coverage here on msnbc. Thanks to all of you. Let me tell you where we are here at the end of this hour. The Speaker Of The House has endorsed this Impeachment Probe uniting the work of several committees. The republican ins the senate who are often heckled for their lack of response in anything trump does has joined in that vote for the whistleblower complaint and now 188 democrats in the house now backing impeachment. If it feels like things are basically accelerating, they are. If you ask what happens next, does this mean there will be an Impeachment Vote as our experts