Former GOP representative Joe Scarborough and Mika Brezinski interview newsmakers, politicians and pundits about the issues of the day.
was obvious the meeting was to get information from foreign nationals which is a crime. lawyers running around collusion is not a crime. anybody knows -- a low he ranking congressman like i was in my first year understood you can't get an in kind contribution from mullahs in iran or vladimir putin in russia. >> that's right, joe. the president is concerned. he's anxious, fearful about where this is all headed. his legal team is focused on that trump tower meeting as they have been for some time. that's a key moment in the mueller investigation. our reporting, despite what the president tweeted in response to it very much is that he's worried about don junior, expressed that worry to people he's been talking to on the phone, privately brouting about this. mueller seems to be inching
closer and closer to the oval office, to the people in the president's circle. that's why you see the president lashing out at twitter, lashing out at the campaign rallies, tweet about the witch hunt more and more, tweeting about robert mueller more and more and more. that's how he's channelling all that frustration and for. >> it's important to keep reviewing the facts as the president and others try to muddle them on twitter. "the new yorker's" adam staved son lays out the facts about which there's no dispute at all, that the president and top advisers knowingly met with officials connected to the russian government hopefully to obtain dirt on their political opponent. that document stolen and were later used in an overt effort to sway the election. these are facts, that when the trump tower meeting was uncovered, the president instructed his son and staff to
political scandal, at the end of the day, it may not be the crime, but the coverup to the crime that does the most damage. we have all this in broad daylight. donald trump lying through his teeth about this meeting specifically from the beginning. >> that's the principle point of danger for mr. trump right now, what happened after post meeting. we know for a fact, f-a-c- t, he sat on air force one and helped prepare a false statement. richard, this further i'm meshes him into, not collusion, but a conspiracy. >> harkening about watergate, it's about what you did and then what you do about what you did. when you read the law, it never says money has to change hands, it can be a contribution of any sort.
power of the office of the presidency, but it cuts even deeper than just simply the symbolic significance of that office. it cuts to the heart of who we take ourselves to be as a democratic society. not only was it conspiracy to defraud, he's aiding and abetting, and undermining of our democratic society. what's interesting, i keep going back to this page 379 in michael wolff's "fire and fury." bannon blowing his stack over this meeting and what they did on the airport. he said donald junior will crack like an egg. michael cohen will crack like an egg. bannon said way back when -- whatever we think about that book, bannon expressly said that this would be the problem, this meeting right here. >> and you can disregard so much, kasie hunt, of what bannon
said. you can disregard so much of what's in fire and fury if you want to, but bannon was dead on there. i actually talked to a reporter back in march or april of 2017, and i asked who do you think is in the most legal jeopardy. his response, don junior. he knew about this meeting. none of us, though, knew he was in close with the trump campaign. he knew about the meeting. and if he knew about the meeting, you know mueller's team knew about the meeting. there is no doubt for over a year the mueller team has been looking at don junior and this meeting and the setting up of this meeting and how excited he was to have this meeting and considered him to be perhaps of all the people around donald trump, the person in the most legal jeopardy. >> joe, think about robert mueller's broader strategy as a prosecutor.
he has shown throughout this investigation that one of the most effective ways for him to put pressure on the principals he's interested in going after is to go after their families, to pressure michael flynn's son, for example, to pressure manafort -- paul manaformanafor daughter and son-in-law has come under pressure. it shows you that this is working. this is his name sake's son. those tweets reveal this president has been pushed farther than he has ever before and this is really getting to him. that's not an accident. that's a strategy. >> hey, phil, i've got to ask you just because your team, your paper, you all have done some of the best reporting on this and done the reporting on this particular case that seems to have triggered the president. i find it one of the most extraordinary iron anies of this
whole thing, by writing this tweet out of concern for his son, donald trump has made his son's situation worse by effectively going on the record and saying his son, in fact, was doing something that was illegal. i want to ask you in that context what do people around the president think comes next, given one of the things that triggers trump most is the possible jeopardy of the people close to him including his family, what do they anticipate will be the next stages of this, as trump starts to lash out on twitter, how far do they think he will go to try to protect his son, son-in-law, daughter, anybody in bob mueller's crosshairs. >> john, it's entirely speculative. in truth, they don't know quite how far the president will go. there's a couple of things going on here. there's a general feeling on the legal team, at the white house, generally speaking, that there could be a big shoe to drop from
mueller in the next couple weeks before labor day, he may have another round of indictments and take some action before the midterm campaign season really kicks into gear, labor day, at which there's an expectation that mueller would go dark for a little while until after the election. the second thing going on is trump is currently weighing whether to sit down with mueller for an interview. those discussions are going on right now as we speak over the next few days. he's expected to decide -- he and his lawyers have been disagreeing about this. the president wants to talk to mueller for the interview. the lawyers obviously don't want him to because of all the potential problems the president could create for himself if he's not truthful. we know he's not always truthful. "washington post" fact checker has over 4,000 miss truths and lies so far. that's what you're seeing fueling the president. >> a larger universe that
haven't spoken about. it's the universe called america. right now america is being led by a man who uses his public appearances at rallies across this country, first time in my lifetime, first time in anyone's lifetime, that the president of the united states uses these appearances to foster hate, division, unrest, and you just wonder now really the impact of that. i wonder about it, about the impact of that much more so than these legal things that he's going to go through, obstruction, whatever you want to call it, conspiracy. this is really a pivotal moment in the course of american history. >> it really is. there are so many different americas. it's a big place. i remember during the bp spill and we looked at the sewage -- the oil coming out of that pipe at the bottom of the gulf.
and somebody that was a lifelong resident of the gulf of mexico was concerned. we were all concerned. we read articles about how that would destroy all life in the gulf for 50 years to come and shrimping industry would be wiped out. well, it's a big gulf. it went away. thank god it went away and hopefully there won't be too much contamination about it. but there are different americas. there is the america of donald trump's white house. there's that reality, something that we focus on an awful lot because it's our job to focus on it. the russia investigation is extraordinarily serious. the violence he does to constitutional norms, extraordinarily serious what he says about reporters, extraordinarily serious. we focus on that. most of americans aren't focusing on that right now.
they are still focusing on their job, their paycheck every two weeks, how their small business is doing, are they going to be able to comfortably afford to send their kids back to school in the fall, are they going to be able to get a new car? by that standard, a lot of america is thinking things are going pretty well and no, i'm not going to be watching donald trump at a rally, i'm going to watch "the office," "modern family," a movie on netflix. that's sort of what i found during impeachment. we were all going crazy up on capitol hill. most everybody else during that time, the kids were out of school. they're getting ready for christmas. they were focusing on things far different than what we were focusing on. it doesn't mean what we or talking about, mika, right now isn't extraordinary important. i think it is. as far as history goes and
government goes, it is the most important thing, and we have to talk about it. people have a responsibility to talk about it. we do have to understand that for a lot of people donald trump is an entertaining side show, perhaps a maddening side show, but they see a very strong economy. it's going to be a question, do more of those people go out in november, or do more young people, black voters, hispanic voters that have been insulted, muslim american voters who have been told you don't belong in america, do more of those voters go out and say, enough, this isn't the land that we read about growing up. this isn't the land that is framed by the statue of libbert. we'll see. there's no doubt right now it's a little complicated out there and either party can win. >> a lot of folks are busy with their jobs. our jobs are to ask the
questions which we'll continue to do. philip rucker, be thank you and your reporting. >> mika, also, what our jobs are, too, to watch the yankees and the red sox. >> well, there is that. >> richard, let me tell you something, 162 games -- as you know, this time yesterday, this time yesterday 40 years ago the boston red sox were 40 games ahead of the new york yankees and then a guy named bucky dent came into fenway and hit a home run. it ain't over, richard, until it's over. but just between you and me, it's over. >> joe, i thought you were a bigger and better man. if it makes you feel big to go after me today, i mean really. >> it's really all i have in life, richard. >> still ahead on "morning joe," trump says he likes mike. michael jordan says he likes lebron. how the president's attempt to
divide sports fans, backfired completely. one of the folks weighing in on that, the ex-president of iran who stepped up his twitter trolling over the weekend. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. call in the next ten minutes... and if that's not enough, we'll look after your every dollar. put down the phone. and if that's not enough, we'll look after your every cent. grab your wallet. (beeping sound) (computer voice) access denied. and if that's still not enough to help you save... oh the new one! we'll bring out the dogs. mush! (dogs barking) the old one's just fine! we'll do anything, seriously anything, to help our customers. thanks. ally. do it right. it's a high-tech revolution in sleep.
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and lets you control your network with the xfi app. it's the ultimate wifi experience. xfinity xfi, simple, easy, awesome. president trump spent part of his weekend in a war of words with basketball superstar lebron james. >> because that really makes sense, mika. if you're worried about an upcoming election in ohio, you want to attack ohio's favorite son right before that special election. >> the president tweeted, lebron james was just interviewed by the dumbest man on television, don lemon, he made lebron look smart which isn't easy to do. i like mike, a reference to michael jordan. the tweet followed an interview by lemon of james for the new school for at-risk children in
his hometown of akron, ohio. it included a negative assessment saying the president using sports as a way to divide us. james received a wave of support including from michael jordan. a spokesman saying he supports james adding he's doing an amazing job for his community. first lady melania trump commended james on his school. her spokeswoman maintained in a further statement that mr. trump was not taking sides on the matter. >> kind of like the united states saying on december 8, 1941, we or not taking sides on the matter. >> over five years ago, he tweeted congratulations to king james on winning athlete of the
year. lebron is also a great guy. >> you can almost hear -- this guy sounded like an old, grumpy, white racist grandpa in queens or in alabama yelling at his tv said saying this black man is stupid, that a black man is stupid. first you'd say, gee, boy, he's really losing it because who would be that racially insensitive to do that, but no, it's his strategy. it's what donald trump thinks. he told his staff members, basically attacking black athletes, that's really good for me, that's really good politically going into the midterms. >> i think you're right, joe. remember the speech in alabama when he went after nfl players
and called them s.o.b.s. it's a situation trump is most comfortable, especially when he's in trouble, to to be the cultural warriors that speaks to the dark underside of this country. to go after lebron revealed very clearly a pattern, a pattern that speaks to his on going belief about black folks and women in particular because he has this pension to describe black people as dumb. he has a tendency to describe women as dumb, not just maxine waters, but women in general. so it seems to me this is trump being the cultural warrior. the irony is this is the man who founded trump university, this fraudulent thing. here is lebron james opening up a public school in cleveland. you couldn't get a better contrast of moral human beings. >> and every phase of their life, mike barnicle. by the way, mel len dwra's spokesperson can say she cuss on the trying to get involved, but
she got involved in the middle of it and chose to side with lebron. >> joe, this gets to what we were talking about before the break and what eddy just spoke about. race remains now and forever the third rail of american life, not american politics. we really don't have a handle on it. we have a leader, the ostensible leader of the united states of america, the president of the united states, who continually plays with it and provokes people with it. it's truly dangerous and it's going to end even more badly than it is right now. >> it would be bad enough if it were restricted to african-american athletes and to african-american women, female members of congress like maxine waters. think about it. you have barack obama, the first african-american president of the united states, he's from kenya. maxine waters, she's an idiot.
blackwater, idiot. black after countries, s holes. if you think of anything in political life, cultural life, gloenl life that associates itself with dark pigmentation, the president of the united states thinks they're idiots, evil, fraudulent. it's not just a pattern that extends -- yes, he's obviously mao maoing colin kaepernick and african-american nfl players and lebron james now. he doesn't restrict himself to one species of african-american, or one category of african-american. if you're black, the president takes a crap all over you. this gets to your point about toxins. it's the most consistent thing in your public profile. >> he's injected it. >> other than don king you can't find an african-american that the president has any respect for. >> it's such a turn to his
private life before he was in politics and when he actually both personally and professionally had friends, had acquaintances in the black community. yu can talk to reverend al about it. you can talk to a lot of entertainers about it. so it is this calculated, cynical, david duke-like use of racism for political gain. as meacham always says, it may be a good starter, but it's a terrible finisher. you don't have to go back that far, john heilemann, to see what's happened in the past, predict what's going to happen in the future. go back to doug jones' special election in alabama. i think one of the most remarkable statistics i've seen in quite some time is the fact that more alabama black voters
across what they call the black belt in central alabama, a higher percentage of black voters came out to vote for doug jones in that special election than voted for barack obama in '08 and '12 percentagewise, is unheard of. it is historic. it's probably never happened before, and donald trump is the reason it happened. right. joe, i'll ask eddie about that. the president thinks this strategy helps with his base clearly. there's plenty of evidence to suggest that donald trump is a stone-cold racist. beyond that, there's the politics of it. he thinks it helps with his base. for every dispossessed, self-pitying white voter who likes the fact that donald trump takes on every feyerick in sight, there's often an african-american female voter we saw in alabama who is equally
inflamed by donald trump's behavior towards african-americans and his tolerance for and praise for white nationalists and neo-nazis in charlottesville, virginia. >> we saw that evidenced in alabama and virginia. i think it's important that we not simply think about donald trump appealing to a racist base. he sits in the sweet spot between loud racist, the soft bigotry of liberals and the contradictions of american capitalists. and what do i mean by that? when he sends out that bone, throws out the red meat, that's okay. it speaks to them. the soft bigotry, that's the silent majority, the folks that believe big government is taking money from hard working white people and giving it to undeserving brown people. these are folks that want to keep their neighborhoods the way they are, the folks committed to
racial equality but according to social science data, that are skeptical of policies that will remedy racial inequality. then you have folks working their behind off in rural america, working their behinds off with three jobs in urban america who can't make ends meet. donald trump sits right in that sweet spot. every time he engages in a cultural war, he's throwing a bone to the racists. it's easy for us to think we can just denounce him as the loud racist, but that's not the source of his power. the source of his power is he sits at the intersection of all three of those things, in my view. >> he kbruuses this power to cr policy that separates children from families and attacks a sports star who creates a school for at-risk kids. it's really sad to use the president's little term, sad.
still ahead, from the start of his presidency, donald trump has muddied what should have been a clear message, russia interfered. now "the washington post" is taking a deep dive into what happened in 2016. that is coming up next. is z hey, no big deal. you've got a good record and liberty mutual won't hold a grudge by raising your rates over one mistake. you hear that, karen? liberty mutual doesn't hold grudges... how mature of them. for drivers with accident forgiveness liberty mutual won't raise their rates because of their first accident. liberty mutual insurance. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty ♪
this president wants to make very clear that he was not the president in 2016 when evidence of russian interference and meddling in our democracy in 2016 was presented to that president and his security team and buried because they wanted the other person to win and indeed thought she would win the presidency. >> white house counselor kellyanne conway yesterday giving some more alternative facts. but when the department of homeland security and director of national intelligence issued a statement in october of 2016 publicly blaming russia for hacking, president trump claimed it was to hurt his candidacy. >> i notice any time anything wrong happens, they like to say the russians -- she doesn't know if it's the russians doing the hacking. maybe there is no hacking. they always blame russia. the reason they believe russia
because they think they're trying to tarnish me with russia. >> this morning "the washington post" announced this coming october it will release a book exam eng russian enter fines in the 2016 election and the subsequent political, legal and diplomatic fallout. the book is entitled "the apprentice, trump, russia and the subversion of america," written by greg miller who joins us now. greg, thank you very much for being on. >> thank you. >> who is the apprentice in this case? and also, i understand you conducted hundreds of interviews with people who are there. as much as donald trump thinks it's to hurt him, this is about america being attacked, is it not? >> the apprentice, we love the title. it works on a number of levels here. trump is an apprentice in many ways, learning on the job.
it ties back to the job and he's so subservient to vladimir putin that he seems like an apprentice to the ruks leader. >> to what extent would the russian policy or intervention, however you want to call it, was that triggered by donald trump's emergence on the american political scene. regardless of the specific candidates that emerged if. >> that's a great question. what we know from intelligence reports and intelligence sources is that it started broad for russia. the sber feerns in the 2016 election, started with broad objectives to undermine american democracy, to make america look dysfunctional. it had a side objective of trying to tarnish hillary clinton because of vladimir putin's animosity toward her. in the middle of the campaign when it looked like trump was starting to rise above the
crowd, the russian campaign pivoted behind him. we're coming to terms with the extent and reach of that effort. this books goes really, really far in trying to understand and explain just how significant it was. >> greg, it's kasie hunt. i've envious that you've had so much time to focus on one topic as we've struggled to keep up with the daily pointing. to that point, we are struggling every day to understand, to follow these tweets, figure out what is important, separate the noise from the substance. having spent all this time looking at this, what are the points that we should be spending the most time focused on? is it the trump tower meeting? is it the president calling for russia to find the 30,000 missing hillary clinton e-mails? what are the key turning points? >> you hit on a couple of those key turning points, but i have to say two things. one, i feel you.
the daily deluge -- even working on this project for the past year was really hard at times, to turn your eyes, to avert your gaze from the daily developments and crazy and chaos. by i think what i took out of this exercise was to look at the sweep of the story. what we tried to do with this book is help people understand the origin of this and where it's taken us as a country. it goes inside not only the white house, but the president's legal team. it goes inside facebook. it goes inside the cia, inside the fbi and inside the mueller investigation, and it brings all of that together. >> greg, you just mentioned one of the least discussed aspects of where we are now with regard to putin and russia and the present administration, and it's the root of this, the origin of this. hillary clinton and vladimir
putin. give us an explanation of what happened and why it so affected putin to the extent he's doing what he's doing. >> as you must know, vladimir putin is really animated and motivated by a deep sense of grievance, a conviction that the collapse of the soviet union was a terrible development for russia, that it stepped back and ceded power in the world in a way it should president have. he became focused on hillary clinton much later when he was president of russia, when there were protests around russia in places like ukraine. and then when protests erupted in moscow, he blamed hillary clinton who was the secretary of state at time for fomenting this opposition to him, and he identified her as the point person for an american effort to
unseat him, for regime change. he really believed that that was the case. >> the book "the apprentice, trump, russia and the subversion of american democracy" will be available october 2nd. greg miller, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you for having me. still ahead, a closer look at the abolish i.c.e. movement and the president's child separation policy. we'll talk to the author of a new piece entitled "how i.c.e. went rogue". plus, nicolas maduro survives what his government describes as an assassination attempt. we'll discuss that when we come back. (vo) this is not a video game.
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in caracas. he was speaking when an explosion occurred. the camera cuts to a wide shot of the scene and following another apparent explosion. large number of soldiers in attendance break rank end flee. the attack came from overhead drones. in an address shortly after, maduro blamed far-right groups in venezuela inaddition to financiers and planners that live in the united states in the state of florida. maduro also says it's part of a plot linked to colombian president, something a colombian officials tells reuters is absurd. the ap and reuters report a group called national movement of soldiers in t-shirts has claimed responsibility on twitter although nbc news has not confirmed the account. venezuela says it has detained at least half a dozen people so far. richard haas, what is going on? >> what you have is a country that has the world's largest
reserves of oil is collapsing. venezuela is a failed state. the currency is down 1 mill thrown the dollar. hemorrhaging between 25 and 50,000 people a month. overwhelming its neighbors. this is a country that -- it's way past the point of any viability. being propped up more than anything else by cuban security personnel, and the question is how does this nightmare end, or does it end? >> richard, let me ask you, how does a country that has such a wealth of oil reserves, how does it collapse this way over a decade or so? >> because over a decade first you had chavez now mr. maduro. it's totally corrupt. totally status leadership. it's anti-business. it's against the people. it's driven out the most
educated, talented people. this is a tragedy. any other place in the world, joe, we would be having a conversation herer and elsewhere about how does the world act? is there some form of intervention. ? instead we have limited sanctions. we can have this conversation in six months or a year. this is an unfolding tragedy. let me spend 30 seconds on something else. what's so interesting with these drone attacks as if we didn't have enough to worry about, we have to add this to the list of things to worry about, wherever people congregate, people can use a drone against our political figure. i think this is a real threat. >> absolutely. coming up the president blows up his team's lie about the trump tower meeting with a single sunday morning tweet. we'll talk about what it means for the mueller probe. and is the state of new york in a position to take out the n ranch. andrew cuomo tweeted if the nra goes bankrupt because of the state of new york they will be
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compares in reducing the risk of stroke. don't stop taking xarelto® without talking to your doctor, as this may increase your risk of stroke. while taking, you may bruise more easily, or take longer for bleeding to stop. xarelto® can cause serious, and in rare cases, fatal bleeding. it may increase your risk of bleeding if you take certain medicines. get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. do not take xarelto® if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. before starting, tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures and any kidney or liver problems. learn all you can to help protect yourself from a stroke. talk to your doctor about xarelto®. all throughout, like hundreds, a hundred years, 125 years, whoever has the white house, that party tends to lose the mid-terms. i don't know why. we have the greatest economy in the history of our country. we've had things that never happened before. if the democrats get in, they are going to raise your taxes.
you're going to have crime all over the place. you're going to have people pouring across the border. why would that be a blue wave. i think it could be a red wave. really, it should be a red wave. [ cheers and applause ] >> welcome back to "morning joe". it's monday, august 6th. >> by the way, again, so many things -- >> where do you begin? >> you have to say it. things going well out there. this isn't the greatest economy ever. this isn't close to the greatest economy ever. barack obama had more people getting jobs his last 16 or 18 months than they had jobs during donald trump's first 16 or 18 months. again not to say the economy is not doing well. it is. but all of these claims and i'm not even talking to trump supporters, i'm talking to news reporters who i cannot believe actually will ask a question by saying yes the economy is doing better than it's before done
before. we're in an extraordinary six, seven year recovery right now and that's a recovery we can all be grateful for. and, you know what? that's something we republicans, now a conservative, we conservatives have always given credit where credit is due and that's the small business owners to people working hard. unfortunately, this economy taking two or three jobs. but, yeah, it's a strong economy but mika, this is not an economy that donald trump gave us. this is an economy that's part of the seven year on going recovery. >> got to keep up with the facts. still with us we had have mike barnacle. national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc john heileman. professor at princeton university and president of the council on foreign relations richard haas. nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of ca
kaciedc, kasie hunt. and columnist and political contributor for msnbc and nbc news, peggy. >> -- peggy noonan and peter baker. >> peggy, i want to start with you. always curious what you're thinking. obviously donald trump this past weekend -- well actually hard to say that he went to new territory because he's always in new territory, but, obviously, more unhinged and more unmoored than usual. obviously concerned about his son's possible legal troubles. but where do you put donald trump, the white house and this country as we move into the dog days of august? >> well, i still think in a funny way, even though there's
so much that happens each day the news cycle always seems to dance that there's too much going on. at this same time nothing happens, i think, until more mueller stuff comes in and a final report comes in. that's the point at which you really know where you stand. having said that, i think the thing with the president is something true of him now that was true of him the second day after he took office. it's been true throughout his administration. he talks too much. he obscures and steps on and made us obvious not anything good happening in his administration. he thinks his constant communication is his power. i think instead his constant need to talk and tweet and be in your face and be the center of attention is, in fact, his weakness. but he cannot stop.
he doesn't have enough self-discipline to hold himself back and let events unfold in an interesting way. i think his rallies are amusing to his supporters, and kind of inspiring and kind of fun. for one thing, they all get-together. americans aren't normally together in a big room. they get to see each other. they get to cheer their guy together. i think he says a lot of things that are not true that they know are not true. but they understand or they recognize it's part of his show business, part of his desire just to say things. also he seems to me very big on this statement that's farther to the reality. he likes to say things as if they are true to make them true. that's what we have a year and a half in is a continuation of the drama of donald trump. >> yeah. you know -- >> sorry to go so long.
>> no, no, no. >> no, no. mike barnacle i spoke with three gentlemen this weekend, educated, good guys, decent guys, all trump supporters and sat there and just listened to them and requested why they supported trump, and quite gave me some, you know, some facts that just weren't the case. but, again, i was just listening. but what struck me was they were good men, they were decent men, they were honorable men, they were fathers, they were grand fathers, they would never accept that sort of behavior out of their children or grandchildren or friends that they ignore when it comes to donald trump. there's no doubt donald trump lives by a different set of standards than everybody else. and it just seems -- it was interesting. these trump supporters, these voters did not like him as a
man. wouldn't want him around. but the economy is doing well. and it reminded me so much of what frustrated republicans in the 1990s about bill clinton. it didn't matter what he lied about, if he was lying about transferring missile technology to china versus an intern, it just didn't matter. people would go, you know, the economy is doing well. he is who he is. and that seems to be the attitude that has stuck here. >> well, i'm sure bill clinton will be thrilled that you lump him in with donald trump in what trump is doing, but joe -- >> but it is important, though, that republicans -- republicans were saying the same exact thing in the late 1990s about bill clinton and his lies and nobody caring about him lying that democrats and independents are saying about donald trump now, and i guess what the bigger point is this.
as long as the economy is doing well, everybody is fine. >> that's true. that's true, joe, to a point, i think. but the people who you were with, the men who you were with, i'm sure they were great guys. sadly for them and a lot of others, including a lot of people we see in these halls where the president gathers the crowds together they are falling for the con. language and words as peggy alluded to are the currency of leadership. and the words that this president uses, that mr. trump uses, are all aimed at two things that presidents of the past, no matter who they were, no matter what party they belonged to they never utilized these words in these two ways, to poke at agree grievances and enlist division. >> i said it in the last hour there are so many different
americas, so many subsets. you got, you know, all the americans looking at donald trump and i suspect, i predict that democrats are going to do very well this fall. i'm not so sure how they will do in 2020 if trump runs for re-election. then you have the subset of people that go to these rallies and this really does seem to be the most hardened core of donald trump's supporters who may believe half the things he says there even though so many are lies. then you got the type of people i spoke to this weekend that i know you talked to out on the campaign trail that say yeah i don't like him. i wish the guy would stop tweeting. yeah, he may not be well mentally. he makes a joke of himself. he embarrasses himself. he embarrasses the white house. but things are going well. the economy is going well. my god, what am i going to do, turn it over to nancy pelosi and chuck schumer and have my taxes raised and have my small business damaged.
that's the mindset for so many americans out, there isn't it? >> it is. look voters have always weighed pocketbook issues. i'm surprised he's doing as poorly in the polls as the economy is doing good. a good economy we float the boat of a president and his party heading in to an election. yet this president is still around 40%, 45% depending on which poll you see. numbers as bad as any were before the mid-term debacle for bill clinton in 1994, barack obama in 2010. so, you know, i look at the poll yesterday, in fact. the differential between his approval rating and disapproval rating is minus 15 which is higher than any president. but that core group of people, 40%, 42% whatever it is are sticking by him and part of it is yes the economy is doing
well. he's not getting as much credit as normally he would because of these other issues, his own conduct in office, the investigation, other things that are holding him back. >> we talked about last week, there are political realities. presidents that have 40% approval ratings, lose the house and they lose the senate in mid-term elections. presidents that kowtow to vladimir putin, ex-kgb presidents. donald trump is not in a strong political position. again when we're trying to figure out why people are supporting him a lot has to do with economy which might help i'm in 2020. i'll keep saying this over and over again. 1994 a huge republican year, bill clinton had a strong economy. 2006 a huge democratic year,
guess what? you had george h. w. bush with a strong economy. you can say the same thing about 2014 and barack obama, the economy was, at that point, was in a four or five year recovery. republicans still had a big year. sign the mid-terms it's not always the economy, stupid. usually that's in presidential years. >> let's talk more about the president's sunday tweet. here it is. fake news reporting, a complete fabrication that i am concerned about the meeting my wonderful son, don't had in trump tower. that was a meeting to get information on an opponent totally legal and done all the time in politics and it went nowhere. i did not know about it. donald trump confided to friends and advisors he's worried that
mueller probe could destroy the lives of innocent and decent people namely trump jr. who is under scrutiny by mueller for organizing a june 16th meeting with russians promising dirt on hillary clinton. notice the president at the end says i didn't know about it to make sure he saves himself mostly. as one adviser described the president's thinking, he does not believe his son purposely broke the law, but is fearful nonetheless that trump jr. may have inadvertently wandered into legal jeopardy. on saturday former communications director hope hicks was spotted on the tarmac joining the president on his trip to ohio. according to trump, trump jr. senate testimony hicks was in the middle of the president dictating his son's misleading statement about adoptions to the "new york times," followed by explanation that quickly unravelled.
>> politics is not the nicest business in the world but very standard where they have information and you take the information. in the case of don, he listened. i guess they talked about, as i see it, they talked about adoption and some things. >> there was nothing as far as we would know to lead anybody to believe there was anything but adoption. >> president didn't sign off on anything. he's coming back from the g-20. the statement that was released on saturday was released by donald trump jr. in consultation with his lawyers. >> he certainly didn't dictate but, you know, like i said he weighed in, offered a suggestion like any father would do. >> one of those false statements you heard there was from president trump's lawyer, jay sekulow yesterday. george stephanopoulos got a chance to ask him about it. >> why did you deny trump's involvement. when did you learn that the denial wasn't true. >> number one, i was in the case
at that point, what a couple of weeks and there was a lot of information that was gathered. as my colleague rudy giuliani said i had bad information at that point. i made a mistakes in my statement. >> however, sekulow did not say where he got the bad information from. it's hard to keep up, joe, with the twists and turns of how the president is trying to handle his own lies, trying to protect his son but really actually working harder to protect himself because ultimately it appears to be all about trump. >> well, john heileman, it shouldn't be surprising, but you see one, two, three, four not false statements, lies. four lies spewed out by four different people in the administration, including the president of the united states, and any other administration that person would go out, issue
an apology, said i had bad information, i am so sorry, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. in this case, that line has become so common from some of those same characters, that there's quite a bit of discussion this weekend about where somebody who works for donald trump right now and spread lies for donald trump right now, and refuses to distance themselves from donald trump calling the free press the enemy of the people right now, you sit there and go where are these people going to get jobs as soon as donald trump leaves town? the answer is they just are not. not in any respectable firm. not in any respectable business because of their brand is lying. >> right. it's easy given the fact that as was pointed out earlier given how much the president lies, given the documented 4,000 lies
or something in the course of the first 18 months of the presidency it's easy to lose focus on how extraordinary this statement was, what the president said on twitter on sunday. the president basically came on twitter in a casual enraged fit. went on twitter and basically said that he misled the american people, he dictated a statement, helped shape a statement that was an outright lie about a pivotal moment in the history of the presidential campaign and the history of this investigation. basically said, admitted straightforwardly, went on the record and said this meeting was about colluding with a foreign government or attempting to collude with a foreign government to get dirt on my opponent. he basically said i lied about this, i been lying about this. everyone around me has been lying about this. it is -- i would say peter baker
i'll ask you because you've been with many presidential administrations. you've seen a lot of things. you've seen a lot of lies. there's not a president we've covered that we haven't seen lie. even by the standards of donald trump or by the standard of any president i've covered this is one of the most extraordinary admissions of having lied on the record of any president. i can't think of anything in anales of presidency that's anything like this, not just as gratuitous but consequential. >> it is consequential. we've seen these reports of measure mural looking at the president's tweets as part of his look into whether there's obstruction of justice. certainly in the last couple of weeks more tweets would add to that possible case. this being one of them. the other is his not quite order to jeff sessions to shut down the investigation. so you got a president here that
any lawyer would certainly be leery of having as a client because you can say anything at any time, undermines his own case, his own defers, his own story, his own version of the truth. it must be frustrating to lawyers, like jay sekulow shown right before you were talking there about bad information. who gave him bad information. that was an important thing. if i was a lawyer in a situation being given bad information you have to wonder whether it's worth staying and if you're putting yourself in professional jeopardy. >> peggy, you worked for a president who used language to soar, to make america feel more at ease, more comfortable, to explain things to america. the challenger explosion, things like that, ronald reagan. we all had our differences with ronald reagan, that administration had difficulties as well as every other administration does.
what goes through your mind when you listen to the language being deployed and employed by this president? >> a few things. one is that reagan was clear to use clarity. he wanted to be clear about his thinking. he wanted his arguments to be clear. when he said the soviet union deserves to fall and well he gave the logical case for it. he gave you his thinking. so way beyond a certain aspirational nature or language there was the simple desire for candor and clarity. look, that is not the age we're in now. i think when donald trump was elected i said we have entered the age of the post-heroic presidency. it seems to me people kind of decided, kind of deliberately we're not going be looking up to these fellows any more.
the next person we choose might be someone from the field of entertainment, or an unusual field but it won't be a political figure and it won't be someone aiming for the aspirational styles of old rhetorically. we're in a new time. it's a post-heroic time. i think donald trump knows this, and asserts on it. >> richard, the questions that, you know, we've been asking and we can continue to ask because they are just as relevant now as they have been since january 20th, 2017 is what is the impact of donald trump lying. everybody in his administration lying. one day after another. we talk about baghdad bob, but i'll tell you some of, i think some of america's greatest currency during the cold war, ronald reagan's greatest currency was that the soviet
union lied. they lied to themselves, they tlied their people, they lied to the countries they were enslaving, they lied to the world. and for us that was always a sign ever weakness that they had to lie to try to shape a reality that was vastly -- that could compete with the united states with the reality was that they were vastly inferior morally, economically, and militarily to the united states of america. now it's a president who admires russia's leaders, russia's governing that is producing his own form of problem every day. >> the implications are terrible on many front. you have a divided country that many people can't believe what the president says so how can we act in a unified, concerted way. some of the important things the
united states does in foreign policy doesn't have anything to go diplomats or soldiers it's the example we set. we just talked about ronald reagan who we worked for. this is not a shining city on a hill. the idea we're having the coarseness of this dialogue, this degree of untruth said, this is not a country that the rest of the world will respect, and, again, we should never forget the rest of the world depends on us. if we're seen as lying, if we're seen as not being reliable, essentially the rest of the world will take its fate into its own hands. this will be a world that will have far less american influence, this will be a world that will be far less stable because people will essentially be going their own ways or deferring to powerful neighbors. what this is doing is setting in motion trends here domestically where it's harder for us to come together and reinforcing sentry
fug -- centrifugal forces in the world. this is serious, this is consequential. >> totally agree. peter baker, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe" we'll have conversations around two of the most controversial and consequential aspects of the trump administration. the role i.c.e. plays in his immigration policy and the dark undercurrents that welled up in charlottesville one year ago this week. we'll be right back.
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[ audience chanting build that wall ] >> president trump speaking in ohio on saturday and joining us now, national correspondent for the atlantic, he writes the magazine's cover story for the latest issue entitled "how i.c.e. went rogue inside america's unfolding immigration crisis" joe there was some critique of my concern that the president has lost a step or two, or is over the edge on friday, and some analysts or i don't know what to call them, trump abologists state tv that what you thought there was brilliance unfolding before our eyes. he's so talented i can't understand talent when i see it.
>> they said you were so boring. >> that's the other reason. >> went on and talked about you for ten minutes. >> that's okay. >> no, it's great. >> got to talk about something. >> got to talk about something. >> no news to cover. there's nothing going on. at all. >> just wanted to talk about boring things for ten minutes. frank, yesterday what fascinated you. we haven't been able to talk about the world cup on tv, premier league, football starts next week. >> it's going to be good. when are you booking your game clock for the show? >> very soon. they will have a great year. we'll get you back on. we'll get you back on with roger. let's talk about i.c.e. right now. it seems that so much of the immigration debate, so much of donald trump's schtick during the campaign, the crowd chanting, building that wall,
build that wall. it's all nonsense. not fact driven. we've talked about immigration rates plummeting, for a decade now. one thing that's very real is what is now happening on the border with i.c.e. and the separation of children, it seems that i.c.e. has lost its focus on its primary mission because they got a president pushing them to do certain things. >> if we step back we can see that this is a donald trump problem but also an american problem in that we've spent generations now building up a massive immigration enforcement apparatus. and because it exists in this little bubble, this little pocket of civil law in the department of homeland security, it exists in such a manner in which it's able to dehumanize all the people it comes in contact with. the department of homeland security is a classic example of a bureaucratic mess that was put
together in a rush with resources not clear delineations of its authority. we just didn't pay much attention it until the trump administration. now what trump has done that's very different is that he's deliberately tried to cultivate fear. that one of the ends of his administration's policy and this grows out of a doctrine that's very clearly declinated is to cause people to deport themselves. that they want to raise the consequences for the 11 million undocumented, and to make them feel a sense of terror and panic and foreboding that causes them to leave the united states on their own accord. and i studied a group, i went to columbus, ohio, spent with a community of west african-americans who came here, applied for asylum, were rejected because they got scammed. every time i go back to columbus
i see people leaving to go to canada because fear has taken hold. >> i want to ask a question. let me frame it in this way. i want to ask a question about the moral crisis that i.c.e. has put the nation in. in the 1850s there was the fugitive slave law. because it did what it did suddenly tissue of slavery was nationalized. not justin south. it was a moral question that m emerson had to confront in massachusetts. now we have i.c.e.. trying from text family members from being snatched from them. this fear you've talked about. how has this i.c.e., this 248% crease in jail tran fierce, how has this created a moral crisis that's nationalized now, not a local issue. >> that's exactly the way i would frame tight, there's this moral crisis that, you know, i believe in borders and that a nation state has the prerogative
to figure out who comes in and who comes out of the country and immigration is something we should legitimately regulate. when it comes to the 11 million who exist within our communities, these are the other who exist within us, and two-thirds of them have lived in this country for over a decade. and so the way that we treat them is a test of our national character because never before or very, very rarely in our history have we attempted to excise the other from our midst. sure we've turned people away at the border oftentimes callously or turned away immigrants trying to enter through ellis island. but only in very, very rare instances have we gone after and tried to remove people who live amoungs. we did this in 1950s with operation wet back where millions of mexicans were moved and that was a moral stain on our country.
but before the existence of i.c.e., before we ramped up i.c.e.'s existence after nooirn we never had a significant police apparatus that was assigned the mission of removing immigrants from the interior of the country. and it's a tremendous power. it's really -- it's largely unchecked. the way we use that power is indeed a moral test. >> well, you know, peggy, the man you worked with, the man you worked for, ronald reagan believed that immigration was a moral test. he also believed that immigration was extraordinarily critical to who we were to the character of america and he said it throughout his presidency. >> i think in his farewell address he said if a nation has to have walls, the walls should have doors, meaning those who want to come here, who have a compelling reason, who we can
accept, get them in here. it's what we have always done. why would we stop this? reagan thought, i think, in part that the desire to be an america, a hunger to be an american, the hunger to live here was to a certain degree an establishing rationale or a reason for you to be taken in. however, i'll tell you i think we need immigration control, we need an immigration control agency. of course we do. but it looks to me like this is a large agency that maybe has a very strong sense of what is possible for it in terms of its aggression. i'm wondering what could a president do right now, could this president do if he had a mind to, what two things could he do to make this albert on the ground and make i.c.e. seem less intrusive and less obnoxious and
less bullying. >> the ronald reagan example is an interesting one because he was the last president to give amnesty in large number to undocumented immigrants and really the failure of impressive immigration reform is the most serious indictment of our political system because we've had bipartisan agreement about the necessity of coming up with some sort of compromise on immigration reform and because we've had major votes endorsing it it's only because of guerilla tactics of house republicans and the lahaster rule. ronald reagan would understand the problem of bureaucracy has run amuck. that's the issue with i.c.e.. barack obama struggled with how to corral this institution. it took him a long time and a lot of trial and error and a lot of flops before in the last couple years of his administration he was able to
impose priorities on the organization. he said that, that i.c.e. should only target serious criminals for deportation. in the absence of immigration reform that would grant amnesty to most of the 11 million, he said you know what? we're not going to send you out of this country if you swerve out of the wrong lane or run a red light, but if you commit a serious crime you're going to be deported. i agree with you, peggy, that we do need to have some sort of apparatus that deports, deports immigrants because that's just something that we need to have a functioning society but i don't think we want to have a bureaucracy like the one that we've amassed. >> yeah. frank, thank you very much. we'll be looking for your reporting online and in the upcoming september issue of the atlantic. still ahead nearly a year since the deadly rally in
charlottesville, virginia and many perpetrators of that racist violence have not been held accountable. a new documentary is investigating why. that's coming up next.
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nearly one year after the deadly rally in charlottesville, virginia, pbs front line are investigating white supremacist resurgence in america with a new special entitled documents hate, charlottesville. here's a clip from the report that premiers tomorrow night and some of the scenes might be disturbing to watch. >> charlottesville rally was supposed to be about a confederate monument. but anyone who was paying attention could see it was about more than a single statue. it felt like a national reckoning around race was coming. i came here to ask questions. and as the day unravelled into chaos around me, one thing became clear, this was not a place to listen or understand.
charlottesville was a crime scene. front line correspondent and reporter a. c. thompson joins us now. what did you fine in your search for whether or not justice was served out of charlottesville? >> you know, i think one of the key things for us is we encountered one person after another who had been violent in rallies after char advocatesvil -- charlottesville before and after charlottesville. there was no consequence for them. we went looking for these violent actors, not the people who wanted the spotlight but the people who didn't want to be in the spotlight, want to operate
from the shadows and engaging criminal activity and there were a lot of them out there. >> why no consequences, one year after charlottesville why no consequences? >> that's a good question. what we know is that a lot of these local authorities, for example, in berkeley, california to charlottesville don't have a ton of resources to go after these characters. in some cases they haven't been vigorous in going after these characters. we believe that the federal bureau of investigation is more interested in some of these groups, and has acted. but it's still an open question why some of these people haven't been brought to justice. >> what's the consequence that follows from the failure to foum. we know what just happened in portland, oregon. what are the consequences that follow? >> i think the concern is that people that are able to go from one rally to the next and physically attack people, and basically then return to their normal lives they feel like hey i can do this, i can get away
with this and engenders more violence. >> how is it that a collection of neo-nazis stone cold racist from across the country, from many, many different states across the country gather in charlottesville for one specific purpose, everybody in charlottesville once they gets there know what the purpose is. where was the preparation, police planning? >> that's a totally crucial question. it's been overlooked. there was a 200 page report that came out after charlottesville that said hey here are the failures and there were many. there were intelligence failures on the front end. there were failures to really plan. there were failures between the virginia state police and the local police to coordinate and even be able to talk to one another on the same radiofrequencies, but most importantly what we know now is that basically the police said we're going to allow this to escalate. we're going to allow violence to
happen. when that violence has happened we'll have a reason to declare unlawful assembly and clear these people out. that helped to lead to failed consequences of that day. >> it's a year later, right. i'll ask you the biggest urgent question i can. take everything that's all happened, all the attention ever char lost via, what the president said, the counter reaction, the recruiting videos, the totality of everything. a year later has charlottesville been good or bad for the cause of white supremacy in america. >> it works in two ways or even three ways. a lot of people have left the movement. they felt they were chastened by what happened. they don't want to be a part of it. other people said we have to organize big ways. we'll do flash mobs. posters. other people said we'll do terrorism. we'll go underground. we're done with protests and politicking now we'll start
killing people and start blowing stuff up. it goes in three different ways. >> how many people were at charlottesville that day when it all blew up? how big transparent crowds? how big were the opposing forces. >> that's still in debate. if you look at the numbers people put white supremacist 500 with more people on the opposing side. that's about right. you had mostly, you know, around 500 white supremacists, a bigger group of opponents. in the streets directly in front of them was a smaller group. most opponents were nonviolent. >> in a nation of 305 million, 500 really bad guys that's not a lot. so what does it imply to you >> two things. one thing is i think they are reflective of a deeper fissure in society. that's a key thing. is that they are the extreme edge of a deeper movement and a
deeper unease. there's a lot of white people who have to some competent in the last few years said hey, i'm unhappy about illegal immigration, i'm unhappy about immigration period and returned to this na negativist racist rhetoric and these guys are the most extreme version of it. the other thing you don't need a lot of people to do extreme violence. we know that from tim mcveigh. he killed 168 people basically by himself. when you have people this motivated to do harm you don't need a lot. >> you know, kasie hunt, if you go back over the trump presidency, yes, there are bizarre things happening every day. there are abnormalities politically. but i look at three events that caused donald trump, i think, the greatest political consequence. one was charlottesville. two was ripping babies from their mothers at the border and three was what happened in
helsinki and vladimir putin. i think the long term impact of that will being a great. but also great for the republican party. i think going back to charlottesville wasn't that really the beginning of almost -- well, a dramatic abandonment from suburban moms, suburban women and suburban voters that were formerly republicans who helped elect a democratic governor in virginia and helped elect a democratic senator in alabama? >> i think that we are still facing as a country pretty crucial tests around exactly those moments that you point out, and this one in charlottesville was in some ways the beginning. also, it was the sharpest, most emotional in many ways, crystallizing all of the things that this president has done -- did as a candidate, in pushing on these -- or ripping open
really these wounds that have been a part of the american fabric since the beginning of our country. and it is a real test, i think, for american voters to see, okay, you know, are those women that you mention, are they going to come out to the polls in droves in 2018 and then in 2020? or is this president's strategy of inflaming these racial wounds going to really be shown to actually have been effective, joe. >> yeah. and, eddie, i ask you this same question about the long-term political impact of charlottesville. we certainly saw in alabama black voters coming out in higher numbers than even for barack obama's elections in '08 and '12. in a presidential year versus an off-year special election, which it is just an extraordinary political event, and also in virginia. does this -- does charlottesville and beyond, is that what actually breaks donald
trump's hold over washington that's run by conservative republicans? >> i think it certainly will be part of the reason, joe. we will see barack obama numbers, i believe, among african-american voters in the midterm and in the 2020 election. but i want to be very clear, we need to move from melodrama where we have our obvious villains and our obvious heroes and our desire for a happy ending, and we need to understand how deeply tragic this is. a.c. said something that's really important. the white supremacists in charlottesville were the radical edge of a deeper, deeper current. we need to understand that all of this stuff has to be made explicit for us to imagine america differently. if we don't, if we fall back into the old mode we will find ourselves on this racial hamster wheel again, and we can't have that happen. hopefully we are moving into a different moment, but i'm not sure. our history says we won't, but i'm not sure. >> the film is "documenting
hate, charlottesville." premieres tomorrow night on pbs and online at pbs.org/frontline. you can read related reporting at propublica.org. a.c. thompson, thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. up next, governor cuomo is picking a fight with the nra. we will talk about that and the primary challenger he is facing this fall. the new york democrat joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ this is a story about mail and packages.
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said he said publicly just a year earlier. he blamed bad information for the original lie without saying where exactly, he joe, that bad information came from. >> well, wherever it came from, it is very obvious you have, first of all, sean spicer lied or was lied to when he went out and gave the briefing, saying that there was nothing but adoption adoption that original meeting was about. then you have jay sekulow lying or perhaps he was lied to by donald trump. either way, it is bad when he also said it was all about adoption. then you had sarah huckabee sanders doing the same thing. she lied to the american people or she was lied to by donald trump. of course, donald trump lying from the very beginning, getting everybody together on air force one, concocting the lie about adoptions, mika. i will tell you, federal prosecutors, state prosecutors, any prosecutors will look to somebody's state of mind.
and when they find out they're lying about something, they understand that there's much more to the story. this was not an innocent meeting that everybody thought was on the up and up. this is not what everybody does, which is their argument. nobody does this but donald trump, and maybe rush's favorite congressman dana rohrabacher. but outside of that, nobody does it because it is illegal to get information, to get anything of worth from a foreign national. so things much cloudier this morning over the white house legally when it comes to robert mueller and the russian investigation. >> and with that, good morning. it is monday, august 6th. just another monday. with us we have msnbc contributor and a very, very happy red sox fan. >> yes! >> mike barnacle. >> yes! >> stop, mike. mike, i may have -- i may have misjudged you. jimmy the greek i am not. i said the yankees since it was august would sweep us. i just had it off just a little bit, mike. >> just a little, capped off by
last night for throws who went to bed early last night, the sunday night game, red sox came back in the ninth to tie it and won it in the tenth, 5-4. richard haas next to me, how are you today? >> let's go back to the news. >> yeah. >> i mean, richard, you could have made that throw from third base to first. i mean in the ninth, i thought -- seriously, i thought it was so nonchalant, i couldn't believe they didn't get zander out. >> even the wild card is beginning to look slightly questionable. this is -- this is worse than the nightmare many of us were concerned going into the four games. so i think it is time to move on though, joe. i don't think we ought to dwell on it. >> mika, it is time to move on, but at some point -- i know we only talk about east coast teams and specifically only two east coast teams. one of these mornings, mike, we're going to have to talk about the oakland a's and the extraordinary job they're doing
right now. >> yes. >> billy ball in full swing. >> oakland is playing very well. again, to richard's point, oakland could catch the yankees for the wild card. >> that would be heartbreaking. >> everyone is a little sleepy this morning. as you see, we have national affairs analyst for nbc news, john heilman, the president of the council on foreign relations -- a very dejected yankees fan -- richard haas. professor at princeton university, eddie claw jr. white house bureau chief at "the washington post" and political analyst for msnbc and nbc news philip rubber, and host of "kasie dc" on msnbc, kasie hunt. i was watching last night. she is awesome. anyhow, joe, as you were saying, it was pretty clear anyway, but now president trump is directly confirming that his son attempted to get dirt on hillary clinton by hosting russians at trump tower. is that bad? we'll get to that in a second. meanwhile, he split his time
over the weekend between attacking the media and attacking lebron james. we'll show you that. and why michael jordan is weighing in, among many others. speaking of stars from the '90s, steven segal is teaming up with vladimir putin. russia made him a special representative to improve relations between the u.s. and moscow. >> that will do the trick. >> we will get to that as well. >> maybe instead of getting a burned-out movie star, maybe just don't try to subvert democracy in america. it will be good. you keep steven, we will keep our democratic processes, and we'll call it even. >> you have dennis rodman for north korea and segal for russia. who is next? who is for iran? anyhow, we will begin with president trump reigniting the controversy around his campaign's june 2016 trump tower meeting with russians. tweeting on sunday, fake news reporting a complete fabrication, that i am concerned about the meeting my wonderful
son -- this is always bad when he does this -- donald had in trump tower. this was a meeting to get information on an opponent. totally legal and done all the time in politics. >> nope. >> and it went nowhere. i did not know about it. >> that's a lie. >> this means he knew about it and his son really messed up. that's my translation. >> three lies in a row, boom, boom, boom. >> he appears to be referring to "the washington post" reporting, trump has confided to friends and advisers he is worried the mueller probe could destroy the lives of what he calls innocent and decent people. remember when he called you about miller, joe? >> yeah. >> anyhow, namely his son who is under scrutiny for organizing a meeting at trump tower, let me help you understand, it is bad. you know he is up and tweeting. as one adviser described the president's thinking, he does not believe his son purposely broke the law. >> since ignorance of the law is actually a -- oh, wait, never
mind. >> but is fearful nonetheless trump jr. may have wandered inadvertently into legal jeopardy. on saturday hope hicks was spotted on the tarmac, joining the president on his trip to ohio. according to trump jr., senate testimony, hicks was in the middle of the president dictating his son's misleading statement about adoptions to "the new york times", followed by explanations that quickly unraveled. >> politics is not the nicest business in the world, but it is very standard where you have information and you take the information. in the case of don, he listened. i guess they talked about, as i see it, they talked about adoption and some things. >> there was nothing as far as we know that would lead anyone to believe that there was anything except for a discussion about adoption. >> the president didn't sign off on anything. he is coming back from g20. the statement that was released on saturday was released by donald trump jr. and i'm sure in consultation with his lawyers. the president wasn't involved in that.
>> he certainly didn't dictate but, you know, he -- like i said, he weighed in, offered suggestion like any father would do. >> it really is odd. it is breathtaking. we're used to the lying, but on something this big, perhaps the most important part of this entire investigation, everything you heard from every white house representative there was a lie. and donald trump admitted this weekend they were all lying. what are the consequences of this? >> well, i don't know what the consequences are, but i know that it is an indication that some folks here are not just in serious trouble, but now recognize they're in serious trouble. i think if you ask the question, joe, you know, last week we watched as donald trump went further, deeper into the realm of public obstruction of justice when he started attacking the mueller probe, suggesting that the attorney general should shut it down. we now have a pretty clear explanation of why it is, that the president is starting to look at the manafort trial
focusing on rick gates, focusing on some of the things that perhaps michael cohen has told investigators about this meeting, about what led up to it, about who might have known about it in advance, about what the president's role might have been, about what donald jr.'s role was. we have an e-mail trail on that. as the president has started to recognize, using various metaphors, walls closing in and the facts are starting to come closer to the surface and corroborating witnesses are starting to come forward or appear to be about to come forward, the president is in an exact 180-degree opposite of what his statement in the tweet says. as mika suggested just a second ago, you know if he's up and tweeting about how he's not concerned about donald trump jr., he's concerned about donald trump jr. >> he's concerned about donald trump jr. phil rucker, he's concerned that donald trump jr. may have stumbled into some illegal territory on his own. also obviously he has to be
concerned by the fact that, again, it is going to be coming out, not only whether it is in the manafort trial or somewhere else, that it is obvious that meeting from the very beginning was to get information from foreign nationals -- in this case the russians -- which is a crime. they can run around -- people, lawyers running around, collusion is not a crime. anybody knows, a lowly-ranking congressman like i was in my first year understood, you can't get an in-kind contribution from, you know, mullahs in iran or vladimir putin in russia. >> that's right, joe. and the president is concerned. he's anxious, he is fearful about where this is all headed. his legal team is focused on that trump tower meeting as they have been for some time. that is a key moment in the mueller investigation, but our reporting, despite what the president tweeted in response to it, very much is that he's worried about don jr. he has expressed that worry to the people that he has been talking to on the phone.
he has been privately brooding over this, sort of feeling very uneasy that mueller seems to be inching closer and closer to the oval office. >> yeah. >> to the people in the president's circle, and that's why you've seen him -- the president lashing out on twitter, lashing out at these campaign rallies, tearing into the media, tweeting about the witch-hunt more and more and more, tweeting about robert mueller by name more and more and more. that's how he's channelling all of that frustration and fear. >> you know, it is important to keep reviewing the facts, especially as the president and others try and muddle them on twitter. the new yorker's adam davidson lays out the facts about which there is no dispute at all, that the president's son and top advisers knowingly met with individuals connected to the russian government, hoping to obtain dirt on their political opponent. that document stolen from the democratic national committee and members of the clinton campaign were later used in an
overt effort to sway the election. these are facts. that when the trump tower meeting was uncovered, the president instructed his son and staff to lie about the meeting and told them precisely which lies to use, and that the president is attempting to end the investigation into this meeting and other instances of attempted collusion between his campaign staff and representatives of the russian government. joe, the president all along saying, no collusion, no collusion. >> yeah, well, i mean no -- that means nothing. he might as well be saying no whiffle ball tournaments in the backyard. i mean if there's conspiracy, that's a crime. if there's a conspiracy to get information from a foreign national, anything of worth, that's a crime. mike barnacle, he can run around saying no collusion all he wants, you know. maybe -- maybe it is a conspiracy again to collude with
a foreign national, to get something -- anything of value. that's a crime. but, again, in this case, as we said about watergate, as everybody says about it seems every political scandal, at the end of the day it may not be the crime, it may be the coverup to the crime that does the most damage, and we have all of this in broad daylight. donald trump has been lying through his teeth about everything, but about this meeting specifically from the very beginning. >> yeah. >> well, joe, that's the point, the principal point of danger for mr. trump right now post-meeting, what happened after post-meeting. we know for a fact, f-a-c-t, that he sat on air force one and helped prepare a false statement. richard, this just further enmeshes him into not collusion but a conspiracy. >> yeah, because, again, harkening back to watergate, it is both what you do and then what you do about what you did. so now we have the pretty clear
evidence that this meeting took place, and when you read the law it never says that money has to change hands. it can be a contribution of any sort. so you've got the meeting, and then you've got now the attempt to essentially hide what actually the purpose of the meeting and what happened at the meeting. so you've got it coming and going. i think we've actually entered now a very different realm because we're no longer speculating. now we actually have people essentially admitting what happened. >> the president. >> the people, yeah. the people in this case being the president of the united states in word on twitter admitting what happened. >> still ahead on "morning joe", it was one of the more biting responses to president trump's attacks on lebron james. one puts kids in classrooms, the other puts them in cages. we'll break down the president's tweets straight ahead. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> well, mika, we had a lot of hot temperatures to talk about, but first to talk about the fires in california. the mendocino complex fire exploded over the weekend, burning thousands upon thousands
of new acreage. it is the fourth largest fire in california history, it is still growing. only about 20,000 acres to go to top last year's number one, the thomas fire. yes, two years in a row we're likely to break the record for the largest fire ever recorded in california history, and those records go back to about 1932. it hasn't been your average fire seasons the last couple of years. so 50 million people under heat advisories in the northeast. hot, just like yesterday. 26 million people under excessive heat warning in areas of southern california and arizona and southern nevada. we are hot in the northeast and the west. gusty thunderstorms, watch out detroit to chicago. by the time we get to wednesday, the showers make their way through kentucky, tennessee, the mid atlantic and the northeast and we're hot throughout all areas of the west. that's where the heat will be, and it will get worst during the week as temperatures may be record highs by thursday and friday. look at boise, 104 by friday.
looks like another week we will be talking a lot about the heat and also probably more fires out in areas of the west. kind of the opposite of what they wanted. new york city, heat advisory. it will feel like 100 degrees in the shade this afternoon. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ hey allergy muddlers: are you one sneeze away from being voted out of the carpool? try zyrtec® zyrtec® starts working hard at hour one and works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. stick with zyrtec®. muddle no more®. and try children's zyrtec® for consistently powerful relief of your kid's allergies. so let's promote our summer travel deal on choicehotels.com like this. surfs up. earn a $50 gift card when you stay just twice this summer. or, badda book. badda boom. book now at choicehotels.com
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the interview included james' negative assessment of the trump sayi saying trump used sports to divide it. james has received support from michael jordan. a spokesman for the legend says he supports james, adding he is doing an amazing job for his community. first lady melania trump commended him on his schools, saying she would be open to visiting his facility. her spokeswoman said in a statement that mrs. trump was not taking sides on the matter. >> it is like the united states saying on, you know, december 8, 1941, we're not taking sides in the matter. >> just over five years ago, donald trump had nothing but praise for james, tweeting, congratulations to king james on winning athlete of the year in last night's espys. lebron is also a great guy, joe.
a great guy. >> yeah, you know, eddie, you could almost hear, this guy sounded like an old, grumpy, white racist grandpa in queens, you know, or in alabama. >> yeah. >> yelling at his tv set, saying, this black man is stupid! that black man is stupid! i mean, you know, first you would say, well, gee, boy, he's really losing it because who would be that racially insensitive to do that? but, no, it is actually his strategy. it was with nfl players, it is with nba players. it is what donald trump thinks, and he's told his staff members, basically attacking black athletes, that's really good for me. that's really good politically going into the mid terms. >> i think you're absolutely right, joe. remember the speech in alabama when he went after nfl players and called them sobs.
it is a sense in which trump is also most comfortable, especially when he's in trouble, to be the kind of cultural warrior that speaks to in some ways the dark underside of the country. in this instance to go after lebron really reveals, i think, very clearly a pattern, a pattern that kind of speaks to his ongoing belief about black folks and women in particular because he has a penchant to describe black people as dumb. he has a tendency to describe women as dumb. not just simply maxine waters but women in general, right. >> yeah. >> it seems to me this is just trump being the cultural warrior. the irony, of course, is this is the man that funded trump university, this fraudulent thing, and here is lebron james opening up a public school in cleveland, right. you couldn't get a better contrast of moral human beings. >> well, in every phase of their life, mike barnacle. and, by the way, melania's spokesperson can say she wasn't trying to get involved, but she
got involved in the middle of it and chose the side of lebron. >> yeah. but, joe, this gets to what we were talking about before the break and what eddie just spoke about. i mean race remains now and forever the third rail of american life, not american politics. we really don't have a handle on it, and we have a leader, the ostensible leader of the united states, the president of the united states, who continually plays with it and provokes people with it. it is truly dangerous and it is going to end more badly than it is right now. >> coming up, the governor of new york state, andrew cuomo, is standing but. he joins the conversation next on "morning joe." when you rent from national... it's kind of like playing your own version of best ball.
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the nra told npr if insurers remain afraid to transact with the nra, there is a substantial risk that nra tv will be forced to cease operating, and the governor of new york, andrew cuomo, joins us now. thank you very much, governor. i understand there's a little bit of a delay here, but we'll get through it. are you black listing the nra? >> no. what happened, mika, is, as you know, states regulate the insurance industry within that state, and we have a law in new york that says you cannot insure someone for an intentional bad act. you can't insure someone for breaking the law, and this insurance product was called carry guard. it was designed for people who carry weapons, and it basically insured them for an intentional bad act. the expression was murder insurance. the insurance company that was
providing the product paid a fine. they signed a consent order. they're no longer selling the product. the nra was the broker on the product essentially, and they were making a commission. they're no longer making the commission, but they were selling an illegal product, you know. i don't have a lot of sympathy for a group that says, well, i've lost the revenue from now being disabled from selling that illegal product. you know, that's -- i don't -- they don't get a lot of sympathy from me in general, mika, but here they clearly broke the law. they are right that i have been a long-term political opponent of the nra. it went back to my time in the federal government with the clinton administration. i believe they are an extremist organization. i believe they don't want any progress on gun reform because it would put them out of business. the majority of gun owners in this country support reasonable gun control, background checks, et cetera, and i think the nra
frustrates any progress just so they have a business line to further. >> so i don't understand, governor. when i was reading these stories over the past several days that the nra claims it is in a financial crisis and may be facing bankruptcy because of some issues that they're having in the state of new york. i don't really understand that considering they still give millions of dollars to people that promote their agenda on capitol hill. so are we just talking about a reorganization that would prevent them from being liable in any possible legal lawsuits? when they say they may be facing bankruptcy, what exactly does that mean? >> no, joe, i'm with you. i think it is a frivolous lawsuit. i don't even know their point. i am sure they lost revenue from losing the sale of this insurance product.
i did not know that it was such a significant portion of their revenue. i'm not sure that it is, by the way, but they're crying poverty. now, it is true that they rely on the money because the way they bully the politicians, joe, as you know, we have both seen it, they need millions of dollars to run those ads to keep the politicians in line. and they're saying that the loss of this insurance product is going to make a significant dent on their coffers. i don't know if that's true or not true, but, look, from my point of view i do disagree with them politically. and if they have less money to bully and threaten politicians into irrational positions, you know, i'm not going to lose any sleep over that. and if they went away, you know, i would offer my thoughts and prayers, joe, just like they do every time we have another
situation of nninnocents losing their lives, 154 mass shootings this year. the nation is paralysed. we're doing nothing, no reasonable reform that we know we could agree to if you didn't have politicians scared to death of the nra. >> hey, governor. john hooilman hereilman here. i want to ask a question in a broader scale. it seems the action you are taking and the effect you are having, you are fighting a guerilla campaign, like a guerilla warfare against the nra. i wonder if you think you are successful, and if you do at whatever level, make kind of a dent in the nra, whether this provides a blueprint to ways in which other states can chip away at the nra's power or, on the other hand, whether the only way to really take the nra down is on the national level?
>> well, it is a good question, john. you know, i think they have shown a vulnerability here, frankly, that i didn't see. when they said that loss of this insurance product is going to make such a significant difference on their revenues, i am now reaching out to the other states because i believe this insurance product is going to be illegal from a public policy point of view in most states. now that the nra said this is a major source of revenue, i'm going to pursue it nationwide. it wasn't a guerilla attack. look, i think these guys are bad guys, and it started from the clinton administration with the safe act that could have done great work that the gun manufacturers supported until the nra came in and literally pressured the gun manufacturers not to make an arrangement.
i passed the best gun control law in the nation five years ago called the safe act. they demonized me. the safe act does everything we're trying to do today, everything. mental health database, assault weapons, et cetera. you know what? five years later, hunters still have their guns, legal owners have guns. there was no slippery slope. the nra hates that. they hate letting people know that you could actually have reasonable gun control that most gun owners support. but if we -- if we're not willing to take them on, we'll never get anywhere on this problem. i mean i was there. i know the dynamic in washington. the republicans are afraid of the nra, period. the president after the parkland shooting did that briefing in the white house conference room where he was asking very reasonable questions.
why don't we raise the purchase age? why do we really need young people with assault weapons? he met with the nra and did a 180 the next day. they're afraid of the nra and that's why we're doing absolutely nothing. >> all right. governor andrew cuomo, thank you so much for being with us. we greatly appreciate it. >> thank for having me, joe, mika. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. we got quite a delay here, sort of here to pakistan almost. mike barnacle, color me skept kl her skeptical here. the nra in financial trouble? i don't think so. maybe they're saying that in their court filings, but here is an entity that already contributed $5.6 million this election cycle over the past year and a half to republican candidates and maybe one or two democrats, and they're going to be spending another four to five million for the end of this year. it seems like just a
reorganization effort to me. >> yeah, i don't want to talk you out of your scepticism, joe. i think it is well-earned. history has shown it is well-earned. one of the things that is really -- that i think a lot of people fail to understand, and governor cuomo just mentioned it, you know, he has gone after reasonable gun control and has succeeded at a certain level in achieving reasonable gun control. in this day and age when people can organize so many things so quickly using social media, i am amazed and i think more people are amazed that a collection of police associations around the country, in various states, various big cities, haven't been organized as a group to combat the nra. they and the innocent victims who die in mass shootings obviously are among the biggest victims of out-of-control or uneven forced gun laws in this country and people being able to get guns with more ease than a library book. the fact they haven't been
organized as a unit to combat the nra -- and i think it would be a powerful group, police combatting the nra -- hasn't been done is kind of a mystery. >> it is a mystery. what is so interesting is, mika, when we talk about it there used to be a huge gulf between conservatives and liberals on gun issues, even going back into the '90s. conservatives obviously and nra supporters wanting more access to more guns, while liberals were talking about the banning of handguns. >> yeah. >> you don't even have that conversation anymore. what you have now, the gun battle is being fought on pretty comfortable territory for middle america. you know, increased background checks, which have -- you know, a lot of people have wanted since newtown. >> common sense. >> increased background checks to keep guns out of the hands of terrorists, to keep begins out of the hands of domestic
abusers, to keep guns out of the hands of those not mentally fit to have guns. even if you talk about the assault-style weapon, the military-style bans, that's -- you know, for most of the things we've seen, 55, 60, 65, sometimes even 70% of americans support that as well. so this battle is not actually even a battle at all. you've got three or four people who are nra leaders up in washington, d.c. that are pushing the most extreme agenda for the gun manufacturers, while most nra members across america want the enhanced background checks, and also even a majority last time i checked wanted a ban on military-style weapons being sold, especially to people who were under 21. >> that amidst an epidemic of mass shootings that everybody can see and feel for themselves. up next, republican strategist rick wilson joins us with his subtly titled new book,
"everything trump touches dies." we'll be right back. the fact is, there are over ninety-six
now that you know the truth, are you in good hands?
with us now republican political strategist, troublemaker, northwest florida hero rick wilson. he is out with a new book, "everything trump touches dies." our republican strategist gets real about the worst president. >> ever! >> you know, rick and i grew up in the same backyard. >> yeah. >> we knew the same political players. we had the same sort of inter-party battles which actually -- there wasn't a great difference between republicans in primaries, even though -- >> yeah. >> not you, but everybody would have to exaggerate the issues. what i'm hearing from a lot of my republican friends now, especially in northwest florida, some representatives up there, it is just extraordinary. i mean -- >> sure. >> -- people that are doing like
vladimir putin by trying to cover up political investigations of putin's interference in american democracy. >> yeah, imagine how it would have played in the first or second congressional district of florida five years ago. >> yeah. >> the idea that somebody was trying to cover up russia interference in our elections, there would have been pitchforks and torches in the streets of pensacola. >> yeah. >> now we look at the governor's race, and you and i both have known adam putnam for years. he is a guy getting his tail whipped because donald trump is tweeting about his opponent. you know, so the ground has changed, but, unfortunately for a lot of the guys that accepted that gift of trump in the primary, they're going -- it looks like they will be paying a heavy price for it come the general election this year. >> and that's how bizarre it is. i'm glad you brought up adam putnam. here is a guy that's been in politics, in public service for years and years. >> yeah. >> i knew him when he served in congress. >> sure. >> everybody that has known him
says he is great, decent guy, a good man and representative. as i was explaining a week or two ago, just because a guy reads his kid trump bedtime stories doesn't mean he will be able to handle things when it hits the fan and a category four hurricane comes in tampa bay. >> right. >> yet that doesn't seem to matter to a lot of primary voters. >> it doesn't seem to matter to primary voters, but it may matter in the general election when we have a democratic governor in florida for the first time in decades. it is definitely a -- the signs of trump's doom in the general, yeah, we've seen it play out in all of the special elections so far in the last year and a half, and we're seeing it play out i think this fall in the imminent doom of a lot of republican candidates in swing districts all over the state and swing states like our home state of florida. >> i tell you what, we're going to give the audience a treat right now. we don't usually go behind the
scenes, but just so you all know, rick has an understudy for his book tour if for any reason he gets sick during the book tour, has problems communicating because of a bad cough. >> oh, my gosh. >> i couldn't grow that beard. >> john is here. john, do you have a question. >> plus i'm about a foot taller than rick. >> oh, wow. >> can we have the book cover up on screen real quick? just show the book cover. the book cover has two fundamental truths it announces. one, everything trump touches dies, and also look at that tiny hand. look at that little, itty-bitty hand. there's cocktail sausage fingers. i'm not sure it could be clearer. here's the question -- here's the thing. you are one of the avatars of
never trump republicanism, right? >> yes. >> for a little while there were a lot of loud never trumpers, and they seemed important. one of the things we have seen, one of the most extraordinary thing is the fact that the president can genuinely boast he has the highest approval rating within his party of any president in the modern history of america. s there's just a huge courage deficit in this country.
we have eddie with us. >> real quickly, now, we tend to exceptionalize trump. but you just talked about the id of the republican party. give me more content. what's the soil of the republican party that made possible trump? you can be a never trump but it seems to me you need to be a never that too. >> i am a never that. >> say more of that then. >> i think there's a part of the gop that has emerged in this populist culture, in this separated media silo that is built by the 90 million households that fox news hits every day and by this talk radio and online segment that really didn't want a fair and balanced approach to the world and how we talk about issues. they wanted that separate media thing. they wanted what they always think the liberals have. where only their views and their grace notes were hit. and i think there is a -- there is a deep underpinning of racial anxiety that informed a lot of
trump voters. as i said this before, not every single trump voter is a racist and aphobic jerk. every single racist and aphobic jerk is a trump voter. >> true. >> rick, you know, one of the -- i'm just curious how you're sorting through this. guys like you and me have spent our entire lives pushing back on the belief there was this subterranean racism in the republican party. that it wasn't really about that. whether it was about freedom. whether it was about economics. whether it was about low tax rates. whether it was about the american dream. whether it was about affording everybody, you know, equal opportunity, that's what i believe my entire life, and it is, at least to me, it's been shocking and somewhat embarrassing just how wrong i was all along that a huge chunk
of the republican party was exactly what liberals had been accusing us of being for a very long time. >> joe, it's a fight -- like you said, we've both pushed back on it for years and years and years. and said that's ridiculous, that's absurd. we can go back to dwight d. eisenhower. this whole arc we pushed back on for years, we were wrong. there's a faction of this party that really wants to hear that message. there's a whole industry now in the trump world of, you know, what i call the coal country christophs. the people that want to explain away the racial animus trump has ignited in a lot of these folks. there's a part of it, we have to call it out. i call it out in the book pretty directly. if a conservative party wants to survive in the future, it has to purge that. aggressively go after people who believe in that stuff, who touch the alt right, involved in this
sort of explaining away trumpism in this regard. >> mika, you know, when you have unemployment at 3.9% and when donald trump himself says the economy's doing better than it's ever done before, which it's not, but it's still doing very well, it's kind of hard to say, oh, people are being racially incensensitive because the economy's so bad. that's just in the words of my friend rick wilson, that's just chicken bonk. >> yes, or something else. the book is "everything trump touches dies." it's out tomorrow. rick wilson, thank you very much. >> thank you, rick. >> up next, education runs on lies. that's a direct quote from former education secretary arne duncan's new book. he joins us next to explain it. ', we offer innovative investing tools to prepare you for the future. looks like you hooked it. and if that's not enough, we'll help your kid prepare for the future. don't hook it kid. and if that's still not enough,
we'll help your kid's kid prepare for the future. looks like he hooked it. we'll do anything... takes after his grandad. seriously anything, to help you invest for the future. ally. do it right. joining us now is former secretary of education under president obama arne duncan. he has a new book out tomorrow,
"how schools work, an inside account of failure and success from one of the nation's longest serving secretaries of education." in it, writes, in part, education runs on lies. that's probably not what you'd expect from a former secretary of education, but it's the truth. how schools work best is often by confronting and fighting these lies, but this is exhausting and sometimes perilous work. usually undertaken by an isolated teacher or principal. so the lies persist. they are emblematic of our system as an apple left of the corner of a favorite teacher's desk. but unlike the apple, the lies aren't sweet. they are overripe and rotten. arne duncan joins us open in thank you for being with us. >> good morning, thanks for having me. >> what are the lies? >> i'll start with the basic premise that we care about education. and the fact is we as voters, we never vote on education. we don't hold any politician accountable for results at the local level, at the state level,
at the national level. good words, good sound bites, but not reality. we say we value teachers. and teachers are so hugely important. but we don't compensate. we don't train. we don't reward teachers like the true professionals they are doing the most important work as, you know, raising, educating our babies. for me, maybe the toughest lie is we say we value our children. what we've done as a nation, much to my horror, we have raised a generation of teens on gun violence, on mass shootings. that doesn't happen in other nations. that has a direct impact of children growing up terrifies, living with trauma, living with fear. i don't spend much time listening to what they say. >> tell me what the country's going to look like in 20 years when we have an educational system where if your child is in an inner city school, you're a
single mother, you're working a part time job, and that child going on to another inner city high school is going to have to compete against other kids from suburban schools where they have much more materials to work with, their families are more secure. what's it going to look like? >> it's competing with children in india and china and, you know, south korea. so for me, doesn't matter if you're coming out of the inner city or rural america ornative american reservation. if you have access to great teachers. if you have teachers that care about you. if you have a fantastic principal, i'm actually very optimistic. i think you can be on track to be successful. if we don't do those things, though, we perpetuate cycles of poverty. >> are we doing them now? >> it varies place by place and school by school. i had the joy of traveling the nation. visiting schools. i saw amazing schools at the heart of the inner city. in west virginia.
i also saw places that break your heart. >> so one of the lies is we've never committed ourselves to educating all of our kids. all of our kids. how do you convince the country, folks who are in very homogenous neighborhoods, however you want to describe it, that we should be committed to educating owl of our kids? >> that's the right question. if we want a thriving and growing middle class. if we want a vibrant civic democracy, we have to do that. it's in our nation's best interest. it's not just my children, your children. we need to educate all of our children and we all gain. rising tide lifts all boats in this area. >> all right. the book is how schools work. it's out tomorrow. secretary arne duncan, great to see you, and thank you so much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you for having me, i appreciate it. final thoughts, joe? >> well, we see the madness.
A look at breaking news, politics and reports from around the world.
trump is being urged to stop tweeting about the 2016 trump tower meeting between his top advisers and group of russians, including a lawyer directly tied to the kremlin. president trump breathed new life into the story with a tweet acknowledging the meeting it was to get dirt on hillary clinton, not adoptions as the president and his son donald trump jr. first claimed. we'll talk about that and more with the top democrat on the house armed services committee, congressman allen smith. former director of national intelligence, james clapper, and our correspondents and analysts are standing by. first, let's go to our chief white house correspondent, jim acosta, near the president's new jersey golf club where the president is spending the week. jim, the president continues to tweet about this trump tower meeting against the wishes of his legal and political advisers. >> he is steering clear of the media, laying low after resurrecting controversy over his son donald trump jr.'s meet
have over time facts develop. >> reporter: the problem for the president, trump jr. initially released a misleading statement to "new york times" about the meeting which was also attended by his son-in-law, jared kushner, and campaign chairman paul manafort. trump jr.'s statement said we primarily discussed a program about the adoption of russian children. no mention that it was about getting russian dirt on hillary clinton. >> you're sending your son, a family member, to talk with a foreign government that is an active enemy or potential adversary at least of this country to talk about information that you could use against your opponent, the optics of that are absolutely terrifying and very disturbing. >> reporter: the president previously acknowledged the true purpose of the meeting days after the initial misleading statement was issued by his son. >> i think from a practical standpoint most people would have taken that meeting. it is called opposition research or even research into your opponent. >> reporter: even as the white house offered conflicting explanations, insisting it was
his characterization that the russian investigation is a hoax. >> the issue for the president i think is the political argument made by his opponents that somehow he conspired with the russians and they helped him defeat hillary clinton. that's what he thinks is the hoax. that's what i understand it to be. >> reporter: as for concerns inside president's team about tweeting, it has been an on-going concern for legal advisers. one of the president's past attorneys, you recall, stepped down in part from his position because of the president's tweets. wolf, this is something they have been talking about since there was a trump campaign during the election of 2016, getting the president or getting at that time donald trump to stop tweeting and getting himself in trouble. now there are real concerns inside the legal team that it could get him into legal jeopardy if he continues to tweet about this investigation at a very critical time. >> he has more than 50 million followers on twitter. i suspect he isn't stopping
what happened, what didn't happen, what the reason was, despite the fact that we don't have a lot of new information we're doing that because the president of the united states tweeted about it. and went further talking about some of the details than he has before, and did so reacting to a news story. he is such a goliath, somebody that's so powerful in his own world that people in and around him don't tend to buck him when it comes to tweeting because it is a blessing and curse as somebody said to me today, but on this particular issue they're saying just put the phone down, please. >> calm down a little bit. also getting new reporting on rudy guiliani, the president's personal lawyer. i take it they're getting ready to respond to mueller, and mueller's latest proposal for a sit down interview with the president. >> i lost track of the number of proposals and counter proposals there are now, but right, the ball is in the trump team's court now. robert mueller sent them a
counter proposal last week of what parameters could be in a potential interview with the president. and guiliani told me that as soon as today, maybe tomorrow, they are going to give another proposal. now, the back and forth has been going on for months and the question really is, big open question, whether there's going to be any resolution. whether at the end of the negotiations the president is really going to sit down with robert mueller in any way, shape or form because as we have been hearing and saying repeatedly, his legal team, pretty much everyone around him thinks it is a terrible idea. it is a perjury trap. it is a nightmare situation. but he feels he wants to clear his name. we'll see. guiliani wouldn't give me details of the counter proposal. hopefully we'll get more information once it is given to special counsel. >> we know last year when "new york times" broke this story of the trump tower meeting with the russians. there was a statement drafted
aboard air force one that suggested it was all about adoption, stuff like that. this is something the mueller team is looking closely at right now, especially in the aftermath of the president's own tweets. >> absolutely. and dana knows this, this is one of the questions, one of the many questions mueller has had for the president, and it is probably one of the questions that the president's legal team doesn't want him talking a lot about. their feeling, i remember one of the lawyers saying it is none of mueller's business if the president lied to "new york times." we're now in the middle of a big investigation. it is mueller's business if the president lied because the idea that he, perhaps someone, whether the president or someone else may have been trying to cover up publicly this meeting and say why don't we say it was about adoptions, it goes to also the state of mind of what the president was thinking at the time, why did he feel the need to direct, to mislead, to lie in this statement to the public. that's a key issue here in this
investigation. i think that's where yesterday's tweet, again, it goes to the president's state of mind. you can see investigators at the fbi, prosecutors wanting to ask why did you tweet that yesterday. why did you tweet so and so in 2016 regarding the trump tower meeting. now you're changing it and saying it was about getting dirt on hillary clinton. so there's a lot of follow-up here that is quite clear the president's legal team is trying to limit. and if the president keeps tweeting about an investigation, it is only causing him more problems and harm. >> when you talk about state of mind, that's so key because one of the most important, the most important argument that a special counsel or investigator can make when it comes to interviewing the president of the united states is that he and only he can answer the questions. when you talk about somebody's state of mind, there's just one person that can answer that, and that's the person who's mind you're talking about.
>> don't know if donald trump jr. has spoken to mueller's team. >> that's important, wolf. he seems to be one of the only people in that meeting that mueller could actually talk to if he wanted to talk to that he has not talked to. we know the translator has been in to see mueller about the meeting, we know the music promoter has been in to see mueller. we know there are others. washington, d.c. fixer that's been in to see mueller. but interestingly enough, donald trump jr. has not. and i think if we know anything about how mueller is doing the investigation, that's significant, i think. >> kushner met with mueller. >> and kushner, too, met with mueller about it. >> if somebody is really in trouble, they're the last person you talk to. >> that's right. manafort was present for that meeting. he hasn't been interviewed by mueller, he has a lure. >> -- has a lawyer. >> he has other issues. guys, thank you very much. let's get more from democratic congressman adam smith joining us from the armed
services committee. thanks for joining us. let's get right to the questions. is the president making things worse for himself with all of these tweets? >> well, obviously from a legal standpoint he is making things worse. how the public reacts to it , t president thinks the tweets appeal to his base. and they do. they fire up his base. that's what he tries to do. that's how he holds the rallies. in terms of people that aren't part of his solid base and in terms of legal strategy behind that, the more you talk, the more you open up to exposure legally. the most interesting thing about all of this that i don't think has been emphasized enough is from the beginning the president, donald trump jr., the attorney general, a series of people have consistently lied about their interactions with russians. they were asked about this repeatedly before all of this stuff came out in november and december and they all said never happened, donald trump jr., said
he never had any meetings with any russian officials. why did they lie about it? why did they so consistently lie about their interactions that have now come to light with a whole series of different people connected to the russian government. >> do you believe, congressman, the president's tweets could be used by the special counsel, robert mueller and his team to get at his state of mind which is so important to proving obstruction of justice? >> exactly. obstruction of justice is the issue here. there's two issues. one is conspiracy. did the trump campaign conspire with russian operatives to try to influence the election. but the other issue is did the president then try to obstruct the investigation into the charges. so when he tweets like he did, not the one saturday but from a week ago that he wants to shut down the entire investigation, he's made it very, very clear he wants to stop the investigation and that, you know, that flirts with obstruction of justice. so the more often he says that,
the more potential legal jeopardy he is in. >> why do you think the president is apparently coming fully clean about the meeting, the purpose of the meeting after all the months of misleading the american people? >> i don't know. i mean, it is sort of like with the whole firing of attorney general, sorry, fbi comey. when it first came out, well, we have a memo, blah blah blah. then within 24 hours after claiming it was a series of things with lester holt, he says oh, no, i fired him. it was my choice. it was because of the russian investigation. so how president trump's mind works on this is hard to say but he has certainly proven over and over again he will change his story whenever he wants to and not even along any sort of pattern that seems to be self interested. just what pops into his head any given moment. >> the president's personal attorney rudy guiliani says they'll decide within the next
day or so on a meeting with robert mueller. this could go all the way to the u.s. supreme court if the president refuses to grant an interview to the special counsel. special counsel then has to issue a subpoena. how do you see this fight playing out? >> well, it's interesting. i think legally it is clear, you can't ignore a subpoena, even if you're the president of the united states. if you're subpoenaed by a lawful investigation, you have to testify. now, you can take the fifth, there's a bunch of things you can do, but nobody has the right to ignore a subpoena. however, remember the supreme court we have. if this goes up to this supreme court, you can bring it back to nixon when the supreme court at that time required president nixon to turn over the tapes because they were following the law. as i've noted before, this supreme court seems to make its decisions based on what donald trump and what the republican party want as opposed to precedence of the constitution. we're headed towards a very
difficult situation, and look, it is really simple. the president simply has to cooperate with this investigation. it's a lawful, legitimate investigation. no serious person questions that the russians at the highest level were involved trying to influence our election, using cyber attacks, disinformation campaign, hacking e-mails. we need to get to the bottom of what happened. to the extent the president is trying to stop that, he's not only potentially committing a crime, he is harming national security interests of the united states of america. >> adam smith, thanks for joining us. >> thanks, wolf. appreciate it. just ahead, president trump comes clean about the trump tower meeting with russians after more than a year of misleading the public. was any crime committed? details of rick gates' testimony for the prosecution in the trial of his former boss, paul manafort. fact is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely.
just stick with badda book. badda boom. book now at choicehotels.com ( ♪ ) (grunting) today is your day. crush it. angie's boom chicka pop whole grain popcorn. boom! breaking news this hour. growing concern within the trump team over the president's continued tweeting about the 2016 meeting featuring top campaign officials and group of russians at trump tower in new york. cnn is told the president is being urged to stop bringing up the meeting which he said in a weekend tweet was expected to produce dirt on hillary clinton. previously the president said the meeting was about adoptions. joining us now, former director of national intelligence, cnn national security analyst, retired general james clapper. thanks for joining us. let me put up on the screen the
tweet the president posted. fake news reporting, complete fabrication that i am concerned about the meeting my wonderful son donald had in trump tower. this was a meeting to get information on an opponent, totally legal, done all the time in politics and it went nowhere. i did not know about it. how significant is this tweet from the president after a long, long time of suggesting that whole meeting was about adoptions. >> i think politically quite significant, just the fact that there's been a long standing practice of deception, objeand i suspect to use a military phrase, prepping the battlefield for revelations that make him to the mueller investigation, what the real point of the meeting was, which i think most people understood anyway. i think it is quite significant politically. legally, i don't know. >> do you think a crime, based
on your reading of the law, was a crime committed? >> well, it is not a crime to lie to the public. what it does show though i think is intent. major kpoenlt, ingredient in conspiracy or obstruction investigation, what was the real intent. to me, this is nefarious intent. and to draw back a little, wolf, why meetings with the russians. our arch adversary. this to me thickens the plot. >> today he did a radio interview with laura ingraham earlier this afternoon. let me play a little clip. >> 20 minute meeting, ended up being about essentially nothing that was relevant to any of these things and that's all it
is. and that's all they've got. that's not the premise that got them in the room. and then it was essentially abate and switch to talk about that. and everyone has basically said that in testimony already. so this is nothing new. >> that's donald trump jr., his recollection of that meeting. he says it was a bait and switch. sounds like he was disappointed the russians didn't deliver the dirt. >> exactly. the whole point for his having the meeting was the expectation of dirt on hillary clinton and the fact that dirt didn't come doesn't change intent for me on what his intent was having the meeting. >> potentially the investigation of mueller and the team of possible obstruction of justice. last summer after the "new york times" reported about the meeting, the president personally dictated a statement that was misleading about the nature of this meeting,
suggesting it was about russian adoptions in the united states. >> again, this is -- the important thing is intent. the intent was to deceive. i think this is a significant backdrop to a determination about obstruction or conspiracy. >> the president and his team, they deflect on this issue by going after hillary clinton again, and suggesting there was collusion that she was engaged in with the republicans. from a tweet from the president. collusion with russia was real. hillary clinton and her team 100% colluded with the russians and so did adam schiff on tape trying to collude with compromising material on donald j. trump. we know hillary clinton paid through a law firm, through kremlin connected sources to gather information on donald trump. collusion is real with russia
but only with hillary and the democrats. we should demand a full investigation. that was the president tweeting, quoting dan bongino, saying looking forward to a new ig report. he didn't say that, put was quoting one of the supporters on fox and friends earlier. >> to me this kind of points out the inconsistency here. apparently it is okay for trump to go after dirt on clinton but not okay for hillary clinton to go after dirt on trump. to me, it is silly to try to make that assertion when he is doing the same thing. >> is there any truth to the argument made by trump and supporters that what hillary clinton did by paying that pr firm for the christopher steele dossier, based on allegations from russians that she did something illegal indirectly seeking foreign assistance in her campaign to obtain dirt on
her republican challenger? >> i think this goes to the point of to what extent she was knowledgeable about what the ultimate sources of the dossier were, whereas with trump camp, they knew very well it was russians. so i think there's an ambiguity there that makes it a foggier yes. >> final question. do you still have your security clearance? >> as far as i know. the technical term here is the threat to revoke my eligibility for access to classified information is i haven't had since about 20th of january, 2017 anyway, but to answer the question, no. as far as i know i still have it. >> so in other words, if one of your colleagues, former colleagues that's still in the u.s. intelligence community wanted to seek your advice, your history on some sensitive issue,
you could still brief that individual and get the latest information? >> if that person determined that he or she felt i had a need for the access to information, classified information, they could do that, so as far as i know now and the same is true with the others that were named, we still have our eligibility for access. and to my knowledge, no action has been taken. >> raised the question because the president specifically said he wanted john brennan, former cia director's clearance removed, and sarah sanders was naming others including you. as far as you know, they haven't taken action against you yet? >> as far as i know. >> thank you for joining us. >> thanks, wolf. following brneaking news in the trial of paul manafort. former deputy rick gates under a plea bargain has taken the stand as star witness for the prosecution. let's go to jim sciutto at the
courthouse in nearby alexandria, virginia. zrieb wh describe what it was like seeing manafort and gates together in the same room? >> reporter: it was a remarkable moment, wolf. i've seen some cold stares in my life. this was a particularly cold stare coming from former boss, paul manafort, sitting in the defendant's chair with arms crossed, looking about ten feet away at rick gates, his former deputy, long time deputy. as rick gates recited a list of alleged crimes, confirming to the prosecutor his knowledge of those crimes and saying through the list that he was doing this at manafort's direction. what was on that list. he says he set up 15 foreign bank accounts they didn't report for the purpose of hiding foreign income from the u.s. tax system. he says they filed false tax returns. he said they failed to register
as a foreign agent as they were doing work for a foreign government, in this case, pro-russian leader of ukraine, and all the while there, his former boss, paul manafort, watching and listening as rick gates ticked off his account of each of those alleged crimes. >> what do we know about the cooperation agreement between gates and the prosecution, the mueller team, and how it is playing out now? >> reporter: well, it's interesting. the first thing the prosecutor asked gates to do was to look at his cooperation agreement, confirm that his signature was on it, confirm his initials were on each of the pages, which he said the judge instructed him to do to show that he had read each of the pages of that cooperation agreement, just to sort of reaffirm that he agreed with what he stated at the start of this. then the prosecutor went on to reveal in his cooperation rick gates revealed other crimes that to this point have not been
known, should say alleged crimes, one of them being that rick gates admitted he stole from paul manafort hundreds of thousands of dollars. he did so by filing false expense claims. you had rick gates there, the former deputy and i should say former deputy chairman of the trump campaign in 2016 for those months saying not only that he committed crimes at paul manafort's direction but that he also stole from paul manafort to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. so a lot of alleged wrongdoing going on in that courtroom behind me, and a number of days to go as the prosecutors make their case, wolf. >> pretty gross when you think about that. jim sciutto. thank you very much. how is robert mueller going to treat president trump's admission that the purpose of the trump tower meeting with the russians was to get dirt on hillary clinton? plus, the first lady forges her own course and publicly
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with the discussions. that follows a weekend tweet with the president saying the purpose was to get damaging information about hillary clinton. mr. trump and his son donald trump jr. initially claimed the meeting was designed to discuss russian adoptions here in the united states. let's dig deeper with correspondents and analysts, gloria borger. why is the president admitting to the true purpose of the meeting? >> i think it is on his mind. you never know why donald trump is tweeting about anything, but i think he is probably worried about his son as dana bash is reporting, and he wants to sort of say look, everybody does it. everybody gets opposition research, this is no big deal, somebody comes in, wants to give you dirt on your opponent, so what. so what. everybody does it. so it has shifted from suddenly a meeting about russian adoptions and don't forget the president dictated that statement from air force one about this meeting to now being well, so, it is not a big deal. and i think that's the point he wants to get across to his supporters is look, democrats do it, republicans do it, and my son is not to blame.
>> i have been told by some supposedly that know the first rule of damage control in washington, if there's bad news about to come out, you release it first instead of letting adversaries release it. that may be behind the theory as well. phil mud, how is robert mueller going to treat this admission from the president? >> let's start from the outset, going into summer vacation, like we have a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle and one piece fell into place. one of the difficult things to look at in any investigation is what people are thinking, the why. in this case, the president just did us a small favor. he put in a piece of the jigsaw puzzle. he explained clearly the why was they were willing, that is trump people, his son, willing to engage in an illegal act, potentially acquire information from a foreign power which would have violated the law. the center of that jigsaw puzzle is still out there, and we don't have the picture on the box to know what that is, and that is one question.
if they were willing to accept that information, if the president acknowledged that in his tweet, did anybody in this meeting or any other meeting accept anything from a russian intermediary. i suspect the special counsel knows part of the answer to that already. that's the piece of the puzzle we don't know yet. one piece in today, still a lot of pieces missing. >> let me read the exchange before the meeting to set up the meeting that donald trump jr. had with rob goldstone, british intermediary that set up the meeting at trump tower with russians. this is to donald trump jr. this is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of russian and government's support for mr. trump helped along by those involved. in that text exchange said quote if it's what you say, i love it, epilat especially later in the summer.
dirt to release closer to the election in november. how important is the phrase russia, its government's support. >> from a legal standpoint less significant that accepting foreign campaign contribution is illegal, whether from a public official or private individual. from a national security perspective, it is incredibly significant, wolf, it is another reminder that this meeting was likely part of a state sponsored attack on our country. we know that vladimir putin ordered meddling in our election, and that included his reliance on a multi facetted, broad network of intermediaries to laundromater information, to make contacts, and try to trap officials like donald trump jr. from counter intelligence stand point, also quite significant. donald trump jr. knowingly went into a meeting with a foreign hostile power to accept illegal information. it is pure logic.
you don't have to be a counter intelligence maven to know this, but if a foreign government happens to call you up and say they have exactly the information that you need and that you're looking for, they probably have an ulterior motive. >> you used to work for director of national intelligence. since the story broke last year, it has become clear according to all sources that the russian lawyer there at trump tower, natalia veselnitskaya, had a closer relationship with putin than initially reported. so how does the russian government, and you used to work in this area, how does the russian government use people like veselnitskaya, often referred to as cutouts? >> the use of cutouts is typical russian trade. veselnitskaya would have been an intermediary between agents and operatives involved in espionage, someone that gathered information, carried information between individuals involved in espionage. she would have been someone that
would have taken orders between the two. one of the interesting things about someone like veselnitskaya is they're not typically read in on the full scope of whatever the espionage effort is, but i think the point about her being close to vladimir putin is really interesting because as we learn more about the relationship between veselnitskaya and vladimir putin and how close they were, we learn more about who she was taking orders from, and then look at the fact that she was able to get this meeting in trump tower. we get much closer to a direct link between vladimir putin and his orders and the president of the united states. and that's something that really concerns us. >> donald trump has said of course he knew nothing about this meeting. i was talking to a source today that said that don jr. has always wanted to please his father and would have gone to him and said either we just had, we're about to have this meeting, we know trump gave a speech the next day talking about information he was going to give on hillary clinton, so i
think that all of this needs to be unravelled. if i'm donald trump's lawyers, i'm telling him to stop talking about this because they know a lot without this meeting, and he doesn't know what they know. so it's very, very dangerous, dicey for him to be doing this. >> where is this headed. mueller supposedly knows more about this meeting than any of us have a clue about. >> i think there's only a couple pieces left. talking the past few minutes whether people like don jr. and president of the united states are going to sit down for interviews. great irony with the white house complaining the investigation won't shut down, every other day they come up with a roadblock why the president can't talk to the investigators. no wonder they can't close the investigation. that said, i know mueller. he doesn't want to sit around doing this forever. if he is not done with more indictments by early september, so he doesn't interfere with midterms, i'm going to guess
something is out by end of the year. we're not doing this in mid 2019. i would lay a bet on that. >> stick around. there's more news, including the first lady contradicting the president of the united states wun once again. details of the latest break between the trumps. possible second summit between president trump and north korean leader kim jong-un. we're learning new details. stand by. are you taking the tissue test? yep, and my teeth are yellow. time for whitestrips. crest glamorous white whitestrips are the only ada-accepted whitening strips proven to be safe and effective. and they whiten 25x better than a leading whitening toothpaste. crest. healthy, beautiful smiles for life.
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nba superstar lebron james is the center of melania trump's break with her husband. our white house reporter kate bennett is joining us. kate, the first lady isn't afraid to forge her own course, even if it counters the president's. >> that's right, wolf, this is a first lady with her own mind, her own opinions and her own spokesperson that released a statement that she agrees with the president, and sometimes she doesn't. it could appear that melania trump's timing, praising lebron james and his children's school in ohio was a swipe at her husband who questioned the nba star's intelligence less than 24 hours earlier. the cnn interview with james, quote, made lebron look smart which isn't easy to do. i like mike, the president tweeted. but according to melania's
spokeswoman, the first lady disagrees. quote, it looks like lebron james is working to do good things on behalf of our next generation, and just as she always has, the first lady encourages everyone to have an open the stark contrast is just the latest example of east wing versus west wing at the white house. as melania trump continues to define her own agenda. in recent weeks, the first lady has been quick to correct the record when it comes to her feelings, whether they compliment her husband's or not. amid the firestorm surrounding the president's alleged triste with porn star stormy daniels. rudy giuliani said this of melania. >> she believes in her husband. she knows it's not true. >> reporter: her spokeswoman fired back, i don't believe mrs. trump has ever discussed her thoughts on anything with mr. giuliani. when "the new york times" reported president trump didn't like his wife tuning into cnn
aboard air force one, melania's office swiftly declared she watches any channel she wants. when he husband's family separation policy caused international outrage, melania trump went to see detention centers near the u.s.-mexico border for himself. >> how i can help for these children to reunite with their families. >> reporter: whether it's taking a separate motorcade to the "state of t state of the union, stealing the spotlight with that white hat moment or slapping her husband's hand away in public. >> everybody loves melania. they love melania. >> reporter: the president doesn't appear to mind. this independent streak could just be part of who this mysterious first lady actually is. >> i'm very strong. people, they don't really know me. people think and talk about me like, oh, melania, oh, poor melania. don't feel sorry for me. i can handle everything.
>> reporter: now, of course, wolf, we remember that some of this messaging gets lost in some of these nonverbal cues. of course, that jacket that she wore, that infamous jacket, she's still trying to live that down in a way. certainly melania trump is forging her own path, saying what's on her mind and it's all a matter of getting to know this first lady as she finds her footing and kicks off her be best initiative. back to you. >> the jacket said, i really don't care, do you? all of us remember that jacket. kate bennett, thanks very much for that report. just ahead, controversy but no results from their first summit. is president trump now prepared to sit down again with kim jong-un? ninety-six hundred roads named 'park' in the u.s. it's america's most popular street name. but no matter what park you live on, one of 10,000 local allstate agents knows yours. now that you know the truth, are you in good hands?
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singapore summit with little if any progress on denuclearization, a source telling cnn, get ready for round two. the official who is familiar with the north korean position on denuclearization says there is a strong possibility of a second summit between trump and kim some time later this year. date and location to be determined. the president perhaps hinting about a future meeting, tweeting chairman kim last week, thank you for your nice letter. i look forward to seeing you soon. u.s. officials hand-delivering trump's letter to kim over the weekend. >> we're waiting for the north koreans to begin the process of denuclearization, which they committed to in singapore and have not yet done. >> reporter: the news comes amid ramped up rhetoric between the two nuclear-armed nations. speaking at this asian security security summit over the weekend. secretary of state pompeo warned countries like china and north korea not to violate sanctions.
>> any violation that detracts from the goal of denuclearizing north korea would be something that america would take very seriously. >> reporter: pompeo had a quick handshake but no meeting this weekend with north korea's top diplomat. instead, he met with his top chinese counterpart and pointing to sanctions and a lack of a peace treaty as major issues that could derail nuclear talks. >> we have a maximum pressure campaign on finances, sanctions that, frankly, make them feel the heat. >> reporter: a cnn source calling the latest statements a negotiating tactic to pressure the trump administration for a better deal ahead of the november midterm elections. world leaders will fly to new york next month for the united nations general assembly. will kim jong-un be one of them? could he make a visit to trump tower? my source says stay tuned.
and the continent of africa on the move the stories about to move a vision of change makers taking their destinies into their own hands. d.w. multimedia series food for. d.w.b. dot com africa. hitchin to the science show on t.w. well come to you tomorrow today coming up. a look back in time to a flying reptile as big as a truck and. a critical view of virtual reality is poised to change our world. and we celebrate the artist's return to switzerland and the citizen scientist who was stalking them.
but first we head to the dark and mysterious world of the deep sea. only around five percent of the world's oceans have been explored their home to a vast range of creatures from delicate jellyfish to terrifying predators. off the coast of north western africa a team of researchers has discovered it gigantic structure on the sea bed built by corals. of this amazing underwater landscape is being researched by a team from the university of braman a reef four hundred kilometers long and up to one hundred meters tall. it was created here in the atlantic off the coast of mauritania in west africa by cold water corals. the minute they live in great depth in absolute darkness they rely on currents to deliver tiny particles of food for them to absorb
often. those particles are plankton which drift like snowflakes through the oceans the supply at those depths is meager so cold water corals grow slowly not more than fifteen meters in a thousand years. still the team have discovered. donnish in coral formations. the aphelion found very many reefs especially in the atlantic with coral mounds some more than three hundred meters tall. and that's as tall as the eiffel tower all the t.v. tower and berlin that's really big. absolut was a huge empty without sin to find out more about how the reef may mauritania developed cloudy of him back and her colleagues collected samples of fossil coral from different layers they determined that it had been growing for a million years but then it stopped. to begin their hard
at the end of the ice age ten thousand years ago there's been no new coral growth in this area after areas that coral could not survive because of very low levels of dissolved oxygen in the water. and on the other hand video footage shows that there has been a recent colonise ation by coral sent if you don't is you're still the conditions are so bad that the coral is not able to create new reefs needed in the logs of its . scientists suspect that parts of the world's oceans with very low levels of oxygen will continue to expand putting pressure on deep sea ecosystems in conjunction with climate change. one of the most common species of cold water coral is look. it's branching skeletons form frameworks and eventually extensive reefs.
these colonies are home to starfish sea urchins lots of different fish and countless other kinds of animal. that's why i'm here in our cold water corals are called the bio engineers of the deep with a hundred many species of fish including ones at a commercial. we fish to use these coral reefs as spawning grounds as a place to feed and also this shelter so they play an important role in shaping the deep sea ecosystem in nets you see researchers have identified four thousand six hundred species that live in cold water coral reef ecosystems that each expedition uncovers more but how cold water corals reproduce is still something of a mystery. the world down there in the depths is astoundingly diverse and passing it would be terrible if it were lost before we managed to understand it.
from the deep sea we head up into the air with a dragon. these flying creatures are certainly trendy nowadays just look at the popularity of the game of thrones series jenkins may be a purely mythical species but an excavation in romania has an earth something that comes remarkably tell us. the gigantic skeleton being assembled here is about sixty six million years old. these bones belong to a terrorist or an extinct flying reptile this is the world's largest known specimen and it's being reconstructed in its entirety here the spectacular find was identified by romanian geologist and paleontologist matter of amy and he has found many important fossil reptiles but at first he couldn't believe what he'd come across. this was the main discover the actual need to realize what that means but
was. compared with what we knew before the ball. was so massive the might might breed didn't accept it so it's not. until recently experts thought pterosaurs had a maximum wingspan of around ten meters this. and measures more than fifty meters. that's about as long as a truck it was a giant creature even in an age of large reptiles. the fossilized bones were first spotted protruding from this cliff side in transylvania romania in two thousand and nine. salvaging them was a complex undertaking. tremont other star for is a paleontologist and experienced fossil hunter. he was part of the excavation team and is well aware that the chances of finding terrorists or bones are slim. they're
much more fragile than dinosaur bones. as the authors of the cottage just said in its own good very thin wall with hardly any organic material inside them just the spongy tissue that was ninety percent but when i was used overall weight and therefore increased its flight capability that i knew he cut so very lightweight bones definitely. here in the dinosaur museum and the military island of area the giant pterosaurs reconstructed skeleton goes on display for the first time. how exactly did these creatures move on the ground it's not known for sure but they probably got around on all fours with their wing membranes neatly folded up on the sides. it's also not clear how they managed to become airborne some experts believe they needed to take off from an elevated point rather like
a hang glider. but it's also possible that larger specimens didn't fly at all because they didn't need to escape from predators. the sensational find has raised many fascinating questions for paleontologists around the world. and drawn quite a crowd to the dinosaur museum here in. all these really looking scenes made with hollywood's most cutting edge technology. where is it all headed. experiencing an augmented world through virtual reality glasses rose tinted or otherwise. technology giant google is banking on virtual reality. and has entire divisions
developing concepts it's even converted its renowned google earth maps into virtual reality format. that allows users to explore the entire planet in three d. . k. is ahead of the project the swiss graphics wizard leads a huge developer team at google in california in his world those with a head for heights can even land on a new york skyscraper like superman and peer down into the abyss. the point of all this. he thinks we are as one of the platforms that will become game changers exerting huge influence like smartphones laptops and computers did we're trying out what kind of opportunities it offers google's mission is to enable users to utilize all the world's information and we are off of enormous potential for that. case i once worked for
the legendary pixar studio he knows the thrill is what counts. people in california developed for the movie industry using light color sound and animation can be used to tell stories and create virtual experiences which people can immerse themselves in her friend. facebook is also taking an active interest in via oculus one. the leading global producers of headset it sees p.r. as a new benchmark which could replace the computer monitor facebook founder mark zuckerberg has big plans. we want to get a billion people. for a billion users even futurologists stephen isn't certain of that kind of take up but with most global players now in the race change is afoot.
with lots of money are investing heavily in the market they're under pressure to come up with the next great game changer there's nothing revolutionary going on with smartphones anymore but people have high hopes for the arch and we can be sure that pressure money and a passion for innovation are driving the technology forward but at the end of the day it's the practical applications that will be decisive innovation only makes sense if users accept it. on the back of a couple of years ago mentored reality in the form of go to the world by storm. reality allows users to interact with virtual objects in the real world but its uses go far beyond games. so it industrial company has been experimenting with augmenting reality. is wearing what's called a hollow lens that combines the real world with the virtual.
virtual projection of a machine manufactured by being embedded within real space. it can be physically explored interactively controlled using a control box and finger movements the system offers a totally new opportunities. it's good for training combining the real with the virtual we can completely trying. form for occasional training and we can approach industry exhibitions in a totally different way we don't need to take entire machines along with us we can plan carefully what we want to present physically and what virtually but we're only just beginning to grasp what it all means for us. builders working together with software specialists from the net setter a company the technology also works on mobile devices and it's becoming increasingly easy to create virtual objects as you try it's much easier today
because the hardware producers effectively take it out of our hands are ever more developer tools that do the mathematical work for three d. object displays. nowadays it takes just a morning or one day to devise a small application of. clean up to. the hollands are still in development for now but augment reality is bursting with potential. the latest generation mobile phones and systems come with a our kids already installed. virtual interactive worlds already taking shape on our mobile devices. what will the future be like as we face an ever increasing onslaught of information. video artist keiichi masuda envisage this possible scenario. i mean we're already exposed to massive sensory overload people can't even keep up with emails and the overload will grow with augmenting reality you're out shopping say
looking at what's on offer and suddenly an acquaintance pops up in the past you could act as if you didn't see them so now you have to acknowledge them because your friends on facebook that it leads to is more precious more social interaction the necessity to process information and i think that's one of the main challenges on us and it means the technology will be used selectively but not in blank. deployment of god and the opportunity to cut but least offering some words of hard from the noise. of. the nineteenth century mathematician ada lovelace is credited with writing the first computer code in history long before computers in the modern day sense existed however the programming pioneer took a dim view of machine intelligence. but nowadays we don't need side five series like westworld to convince us that algorithms have become
a lot smarter since lovelace's time and more disturbing. someone's reaching for their smartphone going on line purrfect. was in fact i already know her. that's a dana she's twenty six years old lives in cologne and comes from seguin she trained to work in office communication management but she's now studying business . she told me everything voluntarily. but i know even more about her i know her biggest secrets how well i don't want to reveal everything but i'll tell you this much i collect data i am facebook's database. i know what a demon likes the rapper. she's a fan of labor who's in football club and she enjoys working out. i know which
posts she likes the one she shares with her friends and those she comments on who she sends private messages to and what she writes in them. i can watch her away from facebook to edina has my location service activated i know when she goes where and i know where she regularly spends her time all the world three times a week she uses the wife i have a particular. f.a. she probably works that maybe it's how she finances her studies or something else. and movement profile also tells me which of the facebook users are around her and who she hangs out with even in the real world that's what colleague. was built. around this guy spends practically every night with her you must be her boyfriend but every now and again another profile comes up
even at night i will i recognize him. her other apps also give her secret away. this is where a demon likes to shop which she prefers to log on with her email address or with her facebook account it's an easy decision just one click and idina can show up to her heart's content and i can collect even more date information like this. again and no longer orders wine instead she buys smoothing frozen pizza and jars of pickled gherkins. and when i show her a baby photo from her friend on her facebook app she poses slightly no longer than usual. so what could all this mean. well her boyfriend has no idea but dana are you coming. nor does her
colleagues. many people are worried about what happens to their data in social media networks. we asked you do you share everything on facebook. usher barbara to me observed clear rules he says he won't post anything from his workplace a little personal information and no family photo. because there is the preconditions for living in peace with facebook. chris raised and he says good things and educational things on facebook. he doesn't want the world to know anything too personal to find out about bad experiences. beer also posted an opinion saying i contrail all my data for privacy reasons so i keep some to myself.
still we're glad that the parents of these cute babies didn't keep their pictures to themselves just look at them testing those lemons. one of our viewers observed a reaction like this in his nephew he's been a doer of from timo in guyana and he sent in a question about it. why do babies put everything in their mouth. no matter what they see in front of them they want to suck it lick it all chew on it even the camera filming them could it be that they're simply hungry. no they don't want to eat the objects they want to examine them and babies can do that best with their mouths. newborns the highest density of sensory receptors
cells is on the tongue. other senses like seeing hearing smelling all feeling are not so well developed in babies. the ability to pick up a small object between farm and index finger called a pincer grasp is a developmental milestone at around nine months of age. until then a baby's tongue and lips get most of its information about. the shape and texture of objects. researchers believe that babies have an image of what they have in their mouth and may even recognize it by sight later. the mouth not only provides information about the world it of course also helps to still hunger and first satisfy the desire for intimacy. the so-called oral phase lasts until the child is about two years old exploring their
surroundings with their mouths helps babies develop a personality the mouth is the gateway to the world. but only very few pages. do you have a science question that you've always wanted answered it we're happy to help out send it to us as a video text ovoid smell if we answer it on the show we'll send you a little surprise as a thank you can i just ask. to find as i did have a dot com slash science drop us a line at d.f.w. undisclosed site tech on facebook d w dot science. now we head back to the water in switzerland where otters are making a comeback the dextrous animals have many clever happens for example they sleep holding hands so they don't drift away in the river. just scientists have been
watching them. through. a camera trap took this footage of an alternate the all river in switzerland. with the rest of the family. it takes resources and time to capture such images it's hardly feasible to set up traps across large areas. but there are other ways to find out why after saw. conservationists of such a project to monitor the animals here in central switzerland it's headed by every new vine backa bit transparent photo is one of thirty six volunteers involved in the effort. pulses leave traces often in the shadow of a bridge. the smells rather fishy bit of angst and he looks very fresh fish. to smoke that territory by leaving piles of excrement that say this part of the river belongs to me. the piles help the researchers track down the
animals. such as could well be living in this stream to. buttress paris phyllis going to check the structure for to once a year. she already keeps track of beavers and is thrilled the authors might show up to. what may exist for me as a real highlight when a species reappears or colm toibin especially when it was basically our fault that it disappeared in the first place authors left because the conditions weren't right for them anymore. although switzerland had to catch the ultra protected species none had been sighted in the wild since the one nine hundred eighty s. these ones live in a zoo. one theory is that toxins in the environment had rendered wild autism far tyler it's exciting that several baby alters have now been seen in the region
a few autism one to be living in the come to terms of solitude and bam but other more and where. well until to truckers have already been signed up in the areas marked in red. that the south. is looking for those telltale signs on the banks of the river come to. this might or might not be relevant evidence but the volunteer trucker takes a photo just in case. this structure for if it was cleaned overnight shift as it's called more than a decade ago the environment is now also friendly. to the position of the river it was rain nature that we've conducted regular inspections meant that six species of fish have returned home also it's nice to see all these various kinds of habitats and it's good for me as an angler it's also good for the also has. some mindless
don't agree they say otters eat too many fish. the project is not only about observation it's also about selling the opto to the public and that includes hostile anglers. it's also about explaining the office behavior and possible impact on fish stocks. if. they could of course the bush daughters will affect some fish populations that's how it is with predators i can play it but i don't think they'll devastate them martyrs can only thrive where they can fish sustainably if there aren't enough fish hunting gets to be hard work and the otters move somewhere else to. feel pity for the class that. the main threats to fish pollution and rising water temperatures really not sure ation of rivers certainly relieves the pressure on them that's also good for autos the question is if humans will welcome more of them and their midst. next week we look at the astonishing
capabilities of this shrew. in winter they shrink their body size to get by with less food even their bones get smaller and they regress in spring. medicine learn from shrooms. more on that next week make sure to join us see you then cut by.
the. law. in the land is hoping to be laid off it's obama's time in may i'm looking forward to the fun rides and parties and and of course i want to try a typical october first beer journey into the best of all history. and see what it's like tell me lad come on the map this is that. land shit as i am sure he loves to.
tear up at the morgue rubrics camp there's a terrible suspicion cool seen through one of europe's largest refugee camps on the island of. followers has said to be terrorizing the refugees some say they've created criminal structures we meet witnesses and victims in an excuse. today in reports. who have been fighting for the case to take you seriously in the world of what here's what's coming up women's talk. for sure women smart talks smart station the legend frank recently dangerous time for w. the form of. an unusual friendship. is the story of paul and he.
is a student from cameroon the other a filmmaker from germany he's read or not likely never be able to say whether he chose me or i chose him whatever the case this is the story of how he met me. on europe's most dangerous. what began as a documentary. about the hooks my parents sacrificed everything for i can't go back and. became a story about those seeking refuge. and those two know. when paul came over the sea from cameroon to berlin starts october fourth on t w e.
this is a fifteen year old girl. being gang raped. his teacher is beating a boy for talking back and class. for the rest of the class watches. and cheering toddlers being killed by his mother. breaking up last. mistrial sleeps in the streets because her family through her. fear. online bullying. pushes a teenager. just because you can see violence against children doesn't mean others and there are make the invisible visible of us might violence against children disappear.
these bloodstained shirt is all that bruno suva has to remind her of her dead son marcos the niece use he was accidentally shot and killed by police during a gang raid. monaco's died as he was riding his bike to school military police fired on the area from helicopters. on what a bullet went in here and out there was there was. that's one side of life today in brazil. he is another one. supporters of a presidential candidate whose promised to crack down on crime these people say shoot first ask. yes germans later. which but the cell again stacked lots of gun
rights is always a stretch go out on the extreme side here myself. this year's election campaign has been brutal cold of anger fear and hatred. but as you could be sarah marshall races to the will for. where is brazil headed. suvari has never stopped feeling outraged about the death of her fourteen year old son he was shot and killed in a fire there are a low income neighborhood called madre. wasn't going to happen right here.
but every marcos came around a corner on his bicycle or saw the military police vehicle bombs and tried to turn back almost all the both go comolli fierro no more police bullet had him right here and came out for the other side the what else was. a big deal it was. a case of cold blooded murder local residents say the police opened fire on the jumble of houses without warning. the raid targeting drug gangs began shortly after eight in the morning police units were deployed on the ground and in the head . family lives in a small apartment her husband is a construction worker she makes some money cleaning homes. a few cows. markel shared despair drily. she slept on the floor her son on the sofa.
you shall never will for us still has the backpack marcos was carrying when he was shot this is the shirt she was wearing at the time she's never washed it. as a bozo i mean there's all this chatter does his legacy was a state cannot be allowed to kill our children the police have uniforms and so do the kids marcus went to school so he could have a better life that should be asked at the football club way i think though. after marcos his death his school uniform became the symbol of a tragedy that has become commonplace in brazil. every day an average of fourteen people are killed by police gunfire. most of the victims live in for violence some are children as a missile some are not accountable you can still see the large bullet holes in the
pavement here really has counted the puff marks left behind by the raid in which her son was killed yellow. police and helicopters fired automatic weapons over a distance of several hundred meters. there are fifty three large bullet holes on this street and. local residents have counted them as well. second off for our joint sin known she my neighbors and i reconstructed the attack ourselves and no one from the city has come here to fix the damage it was an amazing our camp was on my of course we sold three. but these people believe the police crackdown on gangs is fully justified they include conservatives right wingers and supporters of the armed forces which many favor return to military rule to protect brazilians from what these people call communism. how they often make gestures that mimic. iryna handgun presidential candidate joe universal not all made this gesture
popular he's an ex army officer many of his supporters call him the captain. a cowboy ok captain. go for it. brazil is deeply divided mired in a crisis that threatens to tear it apart. the disparity between rich and poor has long plagues the country extreme inequality stope social tension. many of the slums in rio have been taken over by drug gangs. in their bid to wrest back control security forces have resorted to brutal policing methods. it's led to
a sharp increase in violence. in some parts of rio troops now patrol the streets. which is equal to has worried about the increase in gang related crime he's bought a handgun to protect himself like many brazilians shows he fears he may be robed all worse and that fear has turned to anger out. he laughs my gun is not registered in the u.c. and i'm certainly not allowed to carry it on the street ball but i'll use it at home if i have to law abiding citizens like me have the right to defend ourselves did you see that india because he plans to vote for. the man his critics call the trump of the tropics bush will narrow his promise to expand the rights of gun owners. issues isa's that would help cut crime. it is shockey that it would also morals opponents want to
take away the rights of respectable people to own a gun that the leftist opposition wants to leave us as unprotected victims they don't want to stand up to the criminals savvy. asia. in july twenty eighth seen the sensual liberal party nominated bush will not know as its candidate for president but first many dismissed his election campaign as a joke but also know portrayed himself to voters as a patriot a defender of traditional family values under supporter of the armed forces in parliament he praised the military dictatorship the rules brazil from one thousand nine hundred sixty four to nine hundred eighty five. i dedicated my vote to colonel carlos are. parts or did you out there. elections don't change anything
not that obviously not that only a civil war can bring about your party by doing the things that need to be done but you five feel like killing about thirty thousand people that you know. more so now has also been accused of racism. so now that you're a much older racist homophobe. forbid. despite that bush will narrow took a commanding lead in the polls. suzi continue netto is a lawyer and real estate investor he's been hit hard by brazil's economic crisis and says the country should return to a military dictatorship. leave little. there have been all sorts of books plays and t.v. soap operas about the atrocities that were allegedly committed when the generals were in power. but no one has ever written about the good things that the military leaders did. he also points out that boys are not always
not part of the political establishment which is the describes this corrupt. with the. eleventh that is also narrow is one of the various you professional politicians good where we never get involved in any cause i just corruption. jew corpse will merge g.-d. . cronyism nepotism bribery and embezzle a widespread in brazilian politics revealed by police raids and the seizure of luxury cars and even yachts. business executives are said to have bribed politicians during the building of stadiums for the twenty fourteen world cup and the twenty sixteen summer olympics. in twenty fifteen construction magnate muhsin order but ash was arrested in
a corruption scandal. we're no don't know of a single politician in brazil who doesn't have a secret bank accounts or who. what. if they didn't they wouldn't stand a chance of being elected. there is it that every political party has a legal occurrence as well really really. that scandal known as operation car wash was the largest of its kind in brazil a history. numerous politicians from all the major political parties were arrested. the scandal prompted a widespread backlash against the political establishment. a former governor of rio de janeiro state was found guilty of corruption and money laundering and sentenced to more than one hundred years in prison. even former
president lula da silva was caught up in the scandal. still remains one of brazil's most popular politicians polls indicate that if he could run for president he probably beat portugal noddle. he. was convicted on several charges including receiving a seaside duplex apartment from a construction company. in april twenty eight hundred six months before the presidential election you know was arrested and taken to prison. but more so not all supporters gathered outside the jail to celebrate. but luna still had enormous influence over his political party and he believed he
could run for president despite the fact that he was behind bombs. outside the prison a number of lula's followers set up a makeshift protest camp. many of the maintained that he should still be allowed to take part in the presidential campaign. new support among farmers is particularly strong. in the service of a salute. that is there to do the same we're absolutely convinced that lula is in a serious injury so the civil service is going the right wingers are orchestrated his arrest for political reasons. the polls show he's becoming more popular every day where you're going to see the forty. five months before the election lumas
running mates have numb to how that arrived at the prison to visit him you. there was speculation that her dad might run for president himself. could see the ultimate we're not going to discuss alternatives to lula da silva virus we have not yet explored all of our legal options so i don't suppose people are going to get the oboes excel does with them i only have one other than totally turned out to let it be disrespectful of the majority of our civilians to assist us a replacement candidate has brought us all also although it is. despite his conviction newness popularity remains on diminished what inspires this extraordinary loyalty among his followers we're going to know them brazil to find out. in the seventeenth century african slaves were brought to this region to work on farms. this sugarcane factory was shut down sixteen years ago most of the land around it hasn't been cultivated for a long time. families who live in these shacks
screw a few crops but they don't own the land they're now in as a damned list workers. should have been cultivating the nanos all nice tiny plot of land for thirteen year. they'd like to grow more but they're not allowed to. say they're more dangerous than we think it's unfair brazil is one of the few countries in the world to test never carried out tackle a cultural reform therefore my demand access to the land it's a historic duty spice is out there so i started. some ideas parents live nearby ten years ago when luna was still president they were allowed to farm a larger plot of land rosol remembers that well and says that little did
a lot to help ordinary people. just out was a settlement as ms tippett you know the when i was president of people who were given the right to it all or landed stadol own with them as if they were. and he created social programs that provide to people with food and housing living on so they ask as well as a program and that continues that even with a day to do all. most of these people would vote for lulay if they could they say he's the only politician who's fighting for the land reform so desperately needed here. now the liberal supporters are on their way to the capital placid area for a rally of landless workers. back on the other they intend to press their demands that lou be allowed to run for president even though he's in prison. that they were
there was i'm certain that future generations will no longer have access to health care education. why was there. that's. up these people also die hard opponents of j.f.k. bush on a roll they consider him a brazilian version of u.s. president donald trump. and they're worried divorce nado would cut back on social programs. the early going out or scheduling if wilson are a win for everything will go downhill if you try to get congress to set up a military dictatorship we can't allow that to happen large possible decision over . numerous supporters say he's the only politician who can stop boy so narrow.
in september bush or not i was campaigning in the southeastern city of sweeney's to florida when he was stabbed and seriously wounded by a lone attacker in the crowd. the candidate supporters held a vigil outside the hospital where he was being treated. but. bush on our own narrowly escaped with his life but he was still not well enough to campaign actively susie could she knew netto was stunned by the attack you'll see she says she a livable wage more is that the time that i thought that if both sonora were to die at the hands of that drains to sail and use them for did it was that would be the end of brazil she the borg is she would bless your stomach up but. even though both
so not all could no longer campaign his poll numbers kept climbing. one of his sons flavio took to the streets on his father's behalf this rally was held in rio's copacabana industry which. but the older boy scenarios inflammatory rhetoric including his support for military rule continue to garner criticism at home and abroad. the big landowners are a key element of course the narrows power base they grow soybeans corn and grain for the export market. these crops are usually grown from genetically modified seeds and the use of pesticides is common. for that rico davi lies confident that if not all becomes president the big farms will prosper. when you could was going to that's just the only candidate who says he
won't impose restrictions on us you know it was in the bersih good phase which would be able for a long time but we felt persecuted by a portion of the media and a portion of the judiciary parts of the government and foreign n.g.o.s who have all out attack that's this would have courses been there was their plan was up back up . frederica's crops are harvested mainly by machines he employs a mere sixteen people. most of the big landowners support also not all in a big way because they believe he'll defend their economic interests. not just don't go to his policies toward brazil first just like president trump it's what still united states forces to that's when it's put immutable be those if it is the price i think of bullishly is absolutely correct. so on the one side there are
the big landowners like the native eco and all the other farmers who haven't enough land to earn a living. these people handing out free food at a workers' party rally. next door a forum on women's rights is on the way several speakers criticized for naras public comments on women which they call disparaging and insulting. to get money or to go sorry i was a mo maker in lieu of those workers party that this fight is bold and narrow favors a dictatorship much. as he supports the use of torture. we simply cannot allow him to become president. he's also a racist and suffocates violence against women says mr paulson was the only it's
a good that brought us in parliament to rosario has trashed office with forceful naro on one occasion she called him a rapist and said he encouraged sexual assaults on women. and responsible so narrow todo sario that he wouldn't rape her because she didn't deserve it a court later find borstal nara for those comments and ordered him to make a public apology. she was the one god said michelle obama was off i think up the. money a total slam you know represents the southern city of porto alegre the constituents were outraged by bushel narrows remarks the incident was hard on her and members of her family. the least for me to judge so that's also narrow supporters attacked me on the internet something my fans they insulted my daughters now i could also show i was able to
get through this difficult time with the help of a lot of this other woman who has moved out of. here she's taking part in a rally in favor of progressive politics and against the reactionary forces. as represented by bush on our oh i pad. she hopes that women and men will support her cause. that. that they are. the political divide in brazil is growing deeper by the day but also audio is determined to stop abortion out of songs to durham millions of us women in brazil and we have the power we will use that power to defeat hatred president not. hello the out have. had. women standing up for their rights and show simple human decency. in porto alegre and elsewhere across the country hundreds of thousands of people
have been making their voices heard. christiano even speaking out to so she lives on the outskirts of rio for years she was physically abused by her husband. back to move the. body is just punched me in the ribs called for cold war he shoved me against a wall of the bush he did little to get blisters and even attacked me with a knife when i was pregnant i thought you can still see the scar which washed. the abuse continued for eleven years a year ago she and her husband separated. oh well my love was no good there were she can't imagine a man like your so narrow becoming president. that they've missed of all the talk with the jewish babble how can a presidential candidate will call for people to carry weapons these thoughts i
smile after everything that i've been through. i couldn't vote for someone like that all up with the school bus see what i did. many for the residents rejected. including him not a senior realize largest slum to st. louis workers' party expects to do well here even with his replacement haven't understood that who stepped into the race three weeks before the election after of course bob lula from running my dad has vowed to make life better for ordinary people. that it just was over me that you know we have to scrap the limits on social spending we spotted the skull bravest man the government should invest more especially in micro-credit programs like me this to help me back on its feet by pulling him though by the bill maher. posed show how down is the only handed it was
a chance of beating bush. is the cliff favorite in the for velo news. suva marcus's bill reeves mother has her hopes pinned on her dad because if not all becomes president he said to launch a fresh crackdown on crime. is a shift if you will be much employed this man simply can not see elected president of brazil if there were he supports police attacks on neighborhoods yes like the one that killed my son so the same could also come up almost to the density of lives. that's why she supports candidates who oppose war scenario and who will try to improve conditions for those who live in the slum to start. out other. know it by saddam and by charlatans do not provide security i say just kill peace if you tackle its martyrs for any such thing is secular to prevent crime but we need to
invest in an intelligent and comprehensive program of prevention all cyclical flapping christian being put in so that easy answers. but the security forces are maintaining their heavy handed approach. despite the fact that innocent people and even children like marcos are sometimes killed in surprise raids. a little bit or so million on that syrian police operations require a certain amount of secrecy to be successful to see for abuse at the core if we denounce the time and place it it's like the criminal orders would have fled the scene lock up the other person is not a. full bruna such reasoning feels like a physical blow right now she's on her way to a meeting of mothers whose children have been killed by the police. she's brought her son's bloody shirt with her tonight she'll speak out for justice.
human rights activists have invited her to talk about marcos' death it's not an easy task to have. gotten knocked out but on stage she finds the courage to speak she demands a police investigation to find out who shot and killed her son that. she's not satisfied with what the authorities have told her so far. only does that stress ok just all the governmental security forces have said is that the operation was a success that's the metaphor for it up to sell us. open last summer but it was not a success because this is the blood of an innocent child with the saints. for the convalescing shaya the ball so narrow the fates of people like marcos appear not to matter. on the contrary. you'll see what this as i was for
when i read come president i will put more troops on the streets felt that their power was supposed to solve these problems without using force was a real problem i see that's. where we. brazil headed will a country town right posting on the left. it's a crucial election in which nothing less than the direction of brazil's democracy is on the ballot. the fast pace of life in the digital shift as the lowdown on the web showing new developments and providing useful information in the wiki is finds and interviews with makers and users. next d.w. . time for an upgrade.
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connecting with supporters for those lucky enough to be in attendance anyway i. would offer that you could always find out more on these and other stories at our web site www dot com you can also follow us on facebook and twitter for now though for me brian thomas and the entire team thanks for joining us and readers with you at the top of the hour. we make up for but we watch as i feel that under the ticket we are the sum of services. they want to shape the continent's future. part of it and join our youngsters as they share their stories their dreams and their challenges the seventy seven percent platform for africa charting.
these bloodstained shirt is all that bruno silva has to remind her of her dead son marcos the niece hughes he was accidentally shot and killed by police during a gang raid. monaco's died as he was riding his bike to school military police fired on the area from helicopters. the what a bullet went in here and out there was a big one too. that's one side of life today in brazil. oh here's another one of the supporters of a presidential candidate who's promised to crack down on crime these people say shoot first ask questions later. please but the seller again stacked lots of gun rights is always the first band to go out on the street it takes to sell you my salary. this year's election campaign has been brutal full of
anger fear and hatred. but as we go to sarah marshall braces. for. where is brazil headed. suvari has never stopped feeling outraged about the death of her fourteen year old son he was shot and killed in a fire there are a low income neighborhood called murray. was among them happened right near where. i feel marcus came around a corner on his bicycle saw the military police the forms and tried to turn back
almost all the both go commonly fierro police bullet had him right here and came out for other side what else was. a big deal it was. a case of cold blooded murder local residents say the police opened fire on the jumble of houses without warning. the raid targeting drug gangs began shortly after eight in the morning police units were deployed on the ground and in the air. family lives in this small apartment her husband is a construction worker she makes some money chaining homes. a few cows. and marcos shared this bedroom she slept on the floor her son on the sofa. like. the will for us still has the. backpack marcos was
carrying when he was shot this is the shirt he was wearing at the time she's never washed it. as the blows i mean there's all this chatter does his legacy was a state cannot be allowed to kill our children the police have uniforms and so do the kids marcus went to school so he could have a better life that's true i'll speak at the way i think they'll. often marcus's death his school uniform became the symbol of a tragedy that has become commonplace in brazil. every day an average of fourteen people are killed by police gunfire. most of the victims live in favelas some of children is up most of them are catacomb you can still see the large bullet holes in the pavement here really has counted the puff marks left behind by the raid in which her son was killed yellow. police and helicopters fired automatic weapons over
a distance of several hundred meters. there are fifty three large bullet holes on this street and the. local residents have counted them as well. second for our zion simone she's my neighbors and i reconstructed the attack ourselves and no one from the city has come here to fix the damage it was an amazing our kids was on my of course it was sold to me. but these people believe the police crackdown on gangs is fully justified they include conservatives right wingers and supporters of the armed forces which many favor return to military rule to protect brazilians from what these people call communism. they often make gestures that mimic firing a handgun presidential candidate joe universal not all made this gesture popular he's an ex army officer many of his supporters call him. the captain.
oh ok captain. go for it. brazil is deeply divided mired in a crisis that threatens to tear it apart. the disparity between rich and poor has long plagues the country extreme inequality stope social tension. many of the slums in rio have been taken over by drug gangs. in their bid to wrest back control security forces have resorted to bristol policing methods. it's led to a sharp increase in violence. in some parts of rio troops now patrol the streets. which is
equal to has worried about the increase in gang related crime he's bought a handgun to protect himself like many brazilians shows he fears he may go rob all worse and that fear has turned into anger out. you want my gun is not registered and only see and i'm certainly not allowed to carry it on the street ball but i'll use it at home if i have to law abiding citizens like me have the right to defend ourselves did you see that india because he plans to vote for. the man his critics call the trump of the tropics partial nado has promised to expand the rights of gun owners. which will see the says that would help cut crime. it is shockey that it will also morals opponents want to take away the rights of respectable people to own a gun that the leftist opposition wants to leave us as unprotected victims too much
they don't want to stand up to the criminals savvy. age. in july twenty eighth seen the social liberal party nominated bushell non-o. as its candidate for president but first many dismissed his election campaign as a joke but bush will now grow portrayed himself to voters as a patriot a defender of traditional family values under supporter of the armed forces in parliament he praised the military dictatorship the rules brazil from nine hundred sixty four to nine hundred eighty five. i did akkad my voter colonel caro's are. powerful or did you know about their. elections don't change anything. obviously but it is not that only a civil war can bring about change to the party by doing things that need to be done but you five feel like killing about thirty thousand people that you. force on
our own has also been accused of racism. so now that you're a much a racist homophobe the machine is still for people who does good despite that push on a row took a commanding lead in the polls. suzi continue netto is a lawyer and real estate investor he's been hit hard by brazil's economic crisis and says the country should return to a military dictatorship. she reveals leave little better such as there have been all sorts of books plays in t.v. soap operas about the atrocities that were allegedly committed when the generals were in power. she. knew but no one has ever written about the good things that the military leaders did there is dismally at that. he also points out that boys are not always not part of the political establishment which is he
describes as corrupt. that is also narrow is one of the various you professional politicians could let him ever been involved in any kind of corruption with g g. g d c dog. training isn't nepotism bribery and embezzle and widespread in brazilian politics revealed by police raids and the seizure of luxury cars and even yachts. business executives are said to have bribed politicians during the building of stadiums for the twenty fourteen world cup and the twenty sixteen summer olympics. in twenty fifteen construction magnate muscle or depression was arrested in a corruption scandal. we're don't know of a single politician in brazil who doesn't have a secret bank accounts or who. what. if they didn't they wouldn't stand
a chance of being elected. who kept quiet basically every political party has a legal occurrence as well. with. that scam. known as operation car wash was the largest of its kind in brazil is history . numerous politicians from all the major political parties were arrested. the scandal prompted a widespread backlash against the political establishment. and. a former governor of rio de janeiro state was found guilty of corruption and money laundering and sentenced to more than one hundred years in prison. even former president lula da silva was caught up in the scandal.
still remains one of brazil's most popular politicians polls indicate that if he could run for president he probably beat portugal not all. was convicted on several charges including receiving a seaside duplex apartment from a construction company. in april twenty eight hundred six months before the presidential election luna was arrested and taken to prison. more so not all supporters gathered outside the jail to celebrate. but lula still had enormous influence over his political party and he believed he could run for president despite the fact that he was behind bars.
outside the prison a number of lula's followers set up a makeshift protest camp. many of the maintained that he should still be allowed to take part in the presidential campaign. no support among farmers is particularly strong oh that. was in the service of a salute. but is this a good move in the sense we're absolutely convinced that the laziness is this recession more than the civil service in the right wingers or orchestrated his arrest for political reasons. the polls show he's becoming more popular every day feel completely out of the seven forty. five months before the election lumas running mates have none don't have that arrived at the prison to visit him there was speculation that her dad might run for president himself. could see the ultimate we're not going to discuss alternatives to lula still divided as we have
not yet explored all of our legal options are settled for speak a little bit more specific so does make them i only have one of them till we turn now to let it be disrespectful of the majority of our civilians to assist us the replacement candidate has put out a chemical also good is. despite his conviction popularity remains on diminished washing spazz this extraordinary loyalty among his father was going to northern brazil to find out. in the seventeenth century african slaves were brought to this region to work on farms. this sugarcane factory was shut down sixteen years ago most of the land around it hasn't been cultivated for a long time. families who live in these shacks screw a few crops but they don't own the land then they're nice and i'm blessed work.
should z.m. to rosa have been cultivating the nanos almost tiny plot of land for thirteen years . they'd like to grow more but they're not allowed to. say they're more dangerous than we think it's unfair brazil is one of the few countries in the world that has never carried out attacks with cultural reform the poor have far more demand access to the land it's a historic duty spices south as i started. through some of the years parents lived nearby ten years ago when luna was still president they were allowed to farm a larger plot of land rosa remembers that well and says that little did a lot to help ordinary people. to start was a settlement doesn't is a pity although when i was
a president but lots of people were given the right to all or land stadol own with them day as at the day virus program was called and he created social programs that provided the people with food and housing loan also. allows the program and that continues that even with today's will willing to do all now. most of these people would vote for little if they could they say he's the only politician he's fighting for the land reform so desperately needed here. now the liberal supporters are on their way to the capital press here for a rally of landless workers. back on the other they intend to press their demands that lou be allowed to run for president even though he's in prison. if they want there was a concern that future generations will no longer have access to health care education in their job. why was there.
up these people also die hard opponents of abortion know they consider him a brazilian version of u.s. president donald trump. and they're worried the boy is so narrow would cut back on social programs. going out or scheduling if wilson are a win for everything will go downhill if you try to get congress to set up a military dictatorship we can't allow that to happen voice possible decision over . numerous supporters say he's the only politician who can stop bush or not all. in september boys are not i was campaigning in the southeastern city of sweeney's to florida when he was stabbed and seriously wounded by
a lone attacker in the crowd. the candidate supporters held a vigil outside the hospital where he was being treated. but. also narrow narrowly escaped with his life but he was still not well enough to campaign actively zeke which he knew netto was stunned by the attack you will soon to be she a livable wage more is that the time that i thought that if both sonora were to die at the hands of that drains to sail and use them for did it would be that would be the end of brazil is she but as you saw back up but. even though both so not all could no longer campaign his poll numbers kept climbing. one of his sons flavio took to the streets on his father's behalf this rally was held in rio's copacabana
district. but the older boy scenarios inflammatory rhetoric including his support for military rule continue to garner criticism at home and abroad. the big landowners are a key element of course the nowruz power base they grimshaw in beans corn and grain for the export market. these crops are usually grown from genetically modified seeds and the use of pesticides is common. for did he call debbie lies confident that if bush were not all becomes president the big farms will prosper. when you could was going to that's just the only candidate who says he won't impose restrictions on us you know it was in the. face with a pimple for a long time but we felt persecuted by a portion of the media and
a portion of the judiciary by the government it was earned foreign n.g.o.s who have all attacked us this would have courses been there were laws their plan was up back up. frederica's crops are harvested mainly by machines he employs a mere sixteen people. most of the big landowners support both n.r.o. in a big way because they believe he'll defend their economic interests. like yes they'll go do his policies toward brazil first being just like president trump it's what still united states forests that's when it's but immutable be those if it is the bias i think of the is absolutely correct. so on the one side there are the big landowners like fred of eco and all the other farmers who haven't enough land to earn a living. these people handing out free food at
a workers' party rally. next door a forum on women's rights is on the way several speakers criticize abortion otto's public comments on women which they call disparaging and insulting. to get money or to go sorry i was a mo maker in lula's workers' party that this fight is false and narrow favors as dictatorship much. as he supports the use of torture. we simply cannot allow him to become president. he's also a racist and advocating violence against women says it is troublesome for me it's a good sense to me that the right is in parliament to rosario has clashed often with also naral on one occasion she called him a rapist and said he encouraged sexual assaults on women. who get sick of it and
responsible so now rotondo sario that he wouldn't rape her because she didn't deserve it a court later find for sonera for those comments and ordered him to make a public apology. she was the one god said she was off i think and up. josiah represents the southern city of porto alegre the constituents were outraged by bushel narrows remarks the incident was hard on her and members of her family. and. pleas for major judge subducts also narrow supporters attacked me on the internet thing my fans they insulted my daughters now i wanted to show that i was able to get through this difficult time with the help of a lot of this other woman who has missed out of. here she's taking part in a rally in favor of progressive politics and against the reactionary forces. as
represented by voice in our own backyard. she hopes that women and men will support her cause. that. that they are that the political divide in brazil is growing deeper by the day but also audio is determined to stop boys are not old songs new there are millions of us women in brazil and we have the power we will use that power to defeat hatred president not . oh thank god i have had. women standing up for their rights i'm sure simple human decency. in porto alegre and elsewhere across the country hundreds of thousands of people have been making their voices heard and.
christiano even speaking out to so she lives on the outskirts of rio for years she was physically abused by her husband but if. i had it is just punched me in the ribs called for a call or he shoved me against a wall of the blue she would like to get blisters and even attacked me with a knife when i was pregnant. but you can still see the scar which was. the abuse continued for eleven years a year ago she and her husband separated. oh well my love was no good there were she can't imagine a man like your so narrow becoming president. that they've missed of all the talk with the jewish babble how can a presidential candidate will call for people to carry weapons and i see john after everything that i've been through i couldn't vote for someone like i. see.
many fellow residents reject a course or not including in rossini and rio's largest slum district. lula's workers' party expects to do well here even with his replacement chairman under how dunn who stepped into the race three weeks before the election after of course bob lula from running my dad has vowed to make life better for ordinary people. that are gusting over me to the canal we have to scrap the limit chance of capturing them we spot the skull bravest man the government should invest distribute especially in micro-credit programs like me this to help get the economy back on a tree i don't know me i'm no but the bill maher. poses show how down is the only candid it was a chance of beating bush on a rope he's the cliff favorite in the favelas.
bruna silva marcus's bereaved mother has her hopes pinned on her dad because if not all becomes president he said to launch a fresh crackdown on crime. drugs is the ship digital download child watch this man simply can not see elected president of brazil is there he supports police attacks on neighborhoods yes like the one that killed my son so the same could also come up oh no food again tomorrow night. that's why she supports candidates who oppose war scenario and who will try to improve conditions for those who live in muslim sorry. i don't. know if i sat in my wife's charms do not provide security i said. just help you get it back on its mark or spanish actually is secular program crime but we need to invest in an intelligent and comprehensive program of prevention all cyclical flapping this chain being put in so that is your answer. but the security forces are maintaining their heavy handed
approach despite the fact that innocent people and even children like marcos are sometimes killed in surprise raids. a little bit or so million terry and police operations require a certain amount of secrecy to be successful so for abuse if we denounce the time and place that psych the criminal is would have fled the scene look up the other thing is will top. such reasoning feels like a physical blow right now she's on her way to a meeting of mothers whose children have been killed by the police. she's brought her son's bloody shirt with her tonight she'll speak out for justice. human rights activists have invited her to talk about marcos' death it's not an easy task for her. peers
getting knocked out but onstage she finds the courage to speak she demands a police investigation to find out who shot and killed her son. of that she's not satisfied with what the authorities have told her so far. that only doesn't stress they just all the governmental security forces have said is that the operation was a success that saddam out of a third of the cells. open are some of it was not a success because this is the blood of an innocent child the saints. for the convalescing share your proposal narrow the fates of people. muckers opinion not some massive. contrary. bill so what this as i was hoping when i read come president i will put more troops on the streets are we supposed to solve these problems without using force as
a no problem. where is brazil headed will the country china right both stay on the left. it's a crucial election in which nothing less than the direction of brazil's democracy is on the ballot. the fast pace of life in the digital. shift has the lowdown on the web showing new developments and providing useful information on the way to use phone lines and interviews with makers and users. next on w. . we're going to unofficial estimates more than one point two million venezuelans live in colombia legally and illegally.
already at all to return to vast way of. to visit friends i don't think i'd ever go back there to live you know when i lived there again i don't know so i'm not sure. bearing witness global news that matters. made from minds. to. shift living in the digital age today the plague of online trolling the most popular video game in the world right now and a giant portrait of a football player but first making the world a better place with digital technology developers and entrepreneurs are creating new apps that can help the poor they can even be used to detect and prevent disease
biala gassed at frankfurt airport city managed by fraport. this is the deputy news live from berlin air strikes in syria leave dozens dead it lives after syrian and russian bombers reduce a market to rubble a young girl is pulled alive from the wreckage but others are not so lucky. also coming up britain pledges to protect its ships from what it's calling iranians piracy foreign minister jeremy hunt says the u.k.
is joining with european allies to ensure ships can travel safely through the strait of hormuz that's after our problem seems to predict oil tanker there on friday and a big win for ukraine's president a lot of fears a lenski party claims an outright majority after sunday's parliamentary elections can it now deliver on a promise reforms and bring peace to eastern ukraine. i'm sara kelly welcome to the program we begin in syria where dozens of civilians have been killed in airstrikes carried out by government bombers and their russian allies on the rebel held town of marjah numan 2 strikes destroyed a crowded market and killed at least 32 people it marks a sharp escalation in the violence in the country's ongoing civil war since late april syrian government forces backed by russia have been fighting to dislodge the
rebels from every province which is one of their strongholds in the country. in a town turned to rubble a life is spare. take it off and pick up my hand this footage from the syria civil defense also known as the white helmets purports to show the moment rescuers pulled a young girl alive from the debris. but dozens of others could not be saved. we were woken by the sound of the russian occupiers warplanes they fired 2 missiles 1st then they came back and conducted a 2nd raid firing 2 missiles at civilians in the market there are a lot of civilian casualties many wounded. to britain days to syrian observatory for human rights blames russia for monday's strikes but russia denies this it was
the 2nd day of deadly airstrikes and it lived province. on sunday locals held a hero's funeral for honest i'll die as a journalist and member of the white helmets rescue team he was killed in airstrikes in the town of qana shakun according to monitors. in the province remains the last jihad a stronghold in syria a syrian government offensive backed by russian airpower has killed more than 2000 people since it began in april oh it live will likely be the scene of further death and destruction as russian warplanes help syria's government rest this populated area from rebel and jihadist control. and tensions are simmering between the u.k. and iran british foreign minister jeremy hunt says that his country is not looking for a confrontation but had strong words for tehran over its seizure of a british flag tanker in the strait of hormuz on friday the senate piro with the
senate imperial was seized by a ronnie of revolutionary guards in the key shipping route of the strait of hormuz after tehran said that it was violating international maritime rules it comes amid a rise in tension between britain and iran in recent weeks come to dress the british house of commons after a meeting of the prime minister's cobra emergency committee let's have a listen under international law iran has no rights to obstruct the ships passage let's. go. was there for state piracy which the house would have no hesitation in condemning. it because freedom of navigation is a vital interest of everybody we will now seek to put together a european letter maritime protection mission to support safe passage of crew and conquer in this fight which we've had constructive discussions with a number of countries in the last quarter and we will discuss later this week the
best way to complement this with recent u.s. proposals in the senate so let's get more now we are joined from london by detail correspondent barbara faisal with the latest on this so we heard the foreign minister there barbara articulating how he's going to seek out this mission how exactly could it work. that's our is absurd absolutely the $1000000.00 pound or euro dollar question whatever you want because nobody knows there is not really a lot of volunteers are out there if you look to berlin for instance are if you look to paris and other european capitals who say oh yes this is what we've been waiting for the problem behind this is that other european capitals feel that the british have brought this upon themselves we do need to remember 2 weeks ago they sort of captured in the rainy and tanker that was headed towards a syrian port they said this was in breach sanctions and international regulations
so they were in the right and the iranians are in the wrong but most security analysts here see this as a simple tit for tat situation the iranians are simply taking revenge on the british so how to get european partners into the boat in order to protect ships in the strait of hormuz that is going to be very difficult indeed and how deeply could we see that tape for tat deepened barbara because i mean jeremy hunt he really didn't mince. words here he called this iranian piracy could we see sanctions sanctions that actually bite. and that's tall talk of course by jeremy hunt and that doesn't cost anything that's for free and they are there is talk of further sanctions beyond really looking at the sanctions that the united states already heaped on iran what else would britain have to think about as
freezing it iranian assets that are being held in britain that certainly that is a possibility but that doesn't really mean a lot to a regime that is already under such intense pressure and wants to sort of withstand that pressure now we also it's worth mentioning the u.k. is amidst a leadership transition we have a new prime minister soon to be sworn in and it's looking like it's going to be boris johnson as the front runner what could that mean for the situation it means for him at least that immediately after you come into office on wednesday afternoon he has this big and very dangerous diplomatic and political crisis on his hands when he was the foreign minister he did to the other european countries did particularly france and germany the signatories of the nuclear deal to keep it alive by all means and to sort of stick to it and will he continue doing so nobody
knows who he sort of tried to throw the british lock in was the more hardline stance and aggressive stance of washington nobody knows even his closest advisers at the moment admit that they have no idea what boris johnson might turn out to do in this situation we are in barbara faisal in london thank you. let's get a quick check of some other stories making news around the world tehran says that it has identified and captured 17 iranian nationals it claims were working as spies for the american cia iranian state television has reported that some of those taken into custody of already been sentenced to death us president tunnel trump has said that the allegations are quote totally false puerto ricans took to the streets of the capital side want to vent their anger over the refusal of governor ricardo to resign he's been under pressure to step down after publication of sexist and
homophobic text messages exchanged by him and his team he had already promised not to rerun for election next year. a suicide car bombing in the somali capital mogadishu has killed at least 17 people and injured dozens more the militant group al-shabaab says that it carried out the blasts which targeted a busy checkpoint near the airport the group has been trying to topple somalia's government for more than a decade. and india has successfully launched an unmanned spacecraft to the far side of the moon the shangri on 2 took off from the space center a week later than scheduled due to a technical glitch it's a very major step forward in india's efforts to become a space superpower. now to ukraine where president the load amir's alleged party claims to have won an absolute majority following sunday's parliamentary election if confirmed the result would be the best that any party has achieved in ukraine's
post soviet history selenski called snap elections after his landslide presidential win in april because parliament was dominated by his opponents he wants a parliamentary majority so that he can push through promised reforms and his fight against corruption. for more let's bring in kiev correspondent nick connelly who joins us from the ukrainian capital so you know judging by these latest projections nick we're seeing that selenski party could indeed exceed expectations and get a majority in parliament how is it looking and what is the reaction. well this really is uncharted territory for ukrainian politics with 80 percent of ballots now counted it looks like the linsky will indeed have that absolute majority will not have to form a coalition with anyone this is more power than any of his previous is this have ever had to give you a bit of a context here the nearest party the 2nd place parties own only about 12 percent selenski over 40 percent so it really is
a story of zelinsky servant of the people party the newly founded party and all the rest and these are all new members of parliament not one of his new members of parliament has sat in parliament before there are people from all kinds of walks of life from chefs to journalists to fellow comedians from all of the ms lewinsky's comedy group so there really is a really mixed bag of new faces in ukraine's parliament in terms of his new powers not concentration of powers in his hands we asked people in the streets of kiev what they made of it all let's have a listen to what i think it's a good thing ukraine has to develop an absolute majority is something new for a country why not give it a try. because i think it's never good if too much power is concentrated in one pair of hands we need checks and balances but there are about to happen and i think it's a good thing selenski need support in parliament so without that it would be tough to stash it scary and it's awful he's going to use or power is evidently you in
there we don't rate selenski he's going to ruin the president say instead to the president. it's a risk and a big responsibility selenski is going to have to answer for all the problems the slow progress of reforms it's his responsibility and no one else's. so the political gamble to call snap elections i mean it seems to have paid off but 5 years ago after the my down protests there was also a big push for change what's different this time. i think this election result is not a rejection of the mind on its values it's more rejection of the old political class and people like. petro poroshenko ukraine's old president who failed to deliver on the aims of the my down as fast as people wanted voters are generally ungrateful they've banked the improvements the fact that they're not scared of the police anymore that the police have stopped taking bribes at least on a kind of day to day level or the fact that the press can report freely without fear of serve in prevention people frustrated about low quality of life low
earnings there was a frustrated that hasn't been more progress fighting corruption and selenski was the perfect new face to pin those hopes on on the one hand he's a new face someone new to politics but equally he's someone who's known to every ukrainian from 20 years on their t.v. screens so those things really came together and he proved very able person to channel those hopes and has proven that this is an aberration this is a 3 quarters win the presidential election now this stunning victory in the parliamentary elections what can we expect from him in terms of foreign relations especially balancing relations between the west and russia i think obviously this strengthens lensky in any negotiations with the west and with russia shows he's got a big part of ukraine's population behind him i don't think it'll have as much influence on foreign policy as it will on his domestic agenda after all the conflict with russia that is that power dynamic isn't going to change because of this during the election campaign the presidential campaign selenski had made noise
that sounded a bit more conciliatory as if he was willing to make big concessions towards russia to get a quick resolution to this conflict in office though he has sounded a lot more guarded and for now i think it would be. headed should you all to expect the kind of progress if this gives him now call loans to really try and rebuild ukraine from the bottom up within the country and in terms of his foreign relations it's it's obviously a big benefit it's a wreaks fill it for him but it's not going to change anything very soon in terms of donbass and relations russia that connally in kiev thank you. swimming's world championships in south korea and adam p.t. has extended his dominance in the breaststroke of events he took gold in the 100 meters the british swimmer had broken his own record and the fine for this final though he fell short of that time today he finished well clear of his rivals to claim the 3rd straight $100.00 metres world title.
sitting president of the united states. another mark up hearing tomorrow morning which is expected. the imminent impeachment on the house floor of president trump. i want to bring in our correspondent, i believe we have garret headache aake on the hil his first appearance here on the hill. we have seen you a lot garret. we have some folks looking at that hearing, you have been looking at impeachment. speaker pelosi has telegraphed a narrow case that could be pushed through judiciary, our colleague geoff bennett did not see the democrats splintering or holding other amendments here. they want to get this through you kn unified. what does your reporting show about that? >> that's right. we have been starting to put the pieces together on a senate trial which is mostly fan
fiction of what you have been hearing about it that both sides speculated of what it looks like. we heard from mitch mcconnell yesterday afternoon saying they'll wait until the new year getting it started. it will push all businesses aside including the senate taking up usca for the white house. what i am hearing from republican lawmakers including senators and some house members close to the president that the president is probably not going to get what he wants which is a big show on the senate floor with witnesses call. the president wants adam schiff and hunter biden and the whistleblower. there is not much an appetite for that. to come over to present the case. then you would have votes and you would have a vote to dismiss
a vote up or down on the charges or vote to go foreign witnesses. republicans may want to see president's witnesses to be called to be possible to have defense witnesses essentially in this case and not the prosecuti prosecution. mike pompeo and rudy giuliani himself perhaps could be called republican senators do not want to see that fight. if there is one thing that animates -- you are hearing members including lindsey graham and mark meadows, advisor to the president, let's wrap it up as soon as possible. republicans assuming that the president is exonerated at this point, they make the argument let's do it fast.
i suppose that could change the holida holidays. >> any republican senators or staffs are concerned of donald trump of the statement they made, defense's case are harder? >> it is possible. the reality here is the idea there would be 20 republican senators who would defect anything the president says now is unlikely, right? you have to think if you stood by the president this long and if you decided after this much coverage public testimony of the facts in the ukraine case setting aside of the elements of the mueller report which is not included here. what's going to make you change your mind now? is there another tweet, 6,000 others didn't? >> i am not talking about the
vote counting. the case, you mention if they don't want to get ugly, it would seem that the president not publicly admitted that his corrupt goal of targeting arrivals rather than saying foreign policy of security. it may have been a better position. i want to tell viewers we are keeping an eye on chairman graham who's explaining some notes about his coming hearing and bringing senator cornyn in it. >> i want to join my colleagues and thanking you in your professional staff for the outstanding work that you have done. this got to be one of the hardest jobs in government to be impartial watchdog and pull government agencies and justice accountable. i want you to know how much we appreciate your work and your team's work. leadership of the fbi of the last administration and the way
they mishandled this counter intelligence investigation, i think the ranking filing agents in the fbi and their colleagues committee to know we are there for them and support them in the faithful thinks charge of responsibiliti responsibilities. i would like to think there is no more supporter of our law enforcement agencies or intelligence committee. i believe general hayden when he wrote his book about the cia, it is called "plain to the edge," it is not over the line but up to the edge in the interest of our national security. that makes it important for us to rule out illegality and
exercise authorities are given to our intelligence community. let me ask you a little bit about that. because i can't think of anything more damaging to the intelligen intelligence committee, the doj of what you have uncovered in this 400 page report than what we have seen here. it really is troubling. can i ask you, the surveillance court as you have pointed out considers the application of a foreign intelligence surveillance for a warrant by the fbi working with the national security division of the department of justice, do you believe that the court knew what you know now that it would ever issued the warpt rant in t first place? >> we are careful of not predicted of what the judges do.
i know they would not sign a warrant if they were told not all relevant information included. >> or if they were lied to. >> do you know if the court would consider this matter? >> if they have the report or a follow-on letter from the department about this matter. >> i hope they'll not let this pass because this behave, this illegality and this deception becomes a routine. i agree with senator graham that it will be the end of authorities that congress granted which is very damaging to our national security. >> the surveillance act includes
the word surveillance obviously and you can't surveil an american citizen for intelligence services except under special eyes and exact circumstances, would you agree with that? >> that's correct. >> the rights given to the constitution are laid out in the bill of rights among other places and there is a more higher standard with giving a warrant, let's say to wiretap or investigation in american citizen then it would be foreign agents. >> the whole exception here which authorizes surveillance of mr. page was based on some proof or some indication or suspicion, he was an agent of a foreign power, correct? >> they have probable cause that he was an agent of a foreign power. >> they got incomplete and
misleading information in that process. >> the court got inaccurate and incomplete information. >> what's the difference between surveillance and spying? >> well, surveillance and the term that i am going to use in the report is what's in the law. >> you don't like the vernacu r vernacular? >> i am going to stick as what we do as igs and stick to the law. >> to my mind there is no difference, although it is legally authorized. it is an act of covert intelligence gathering to hear a foreign power. let me ask you about the defensive briefing. you explain in response to senator graham's questions, i
believe some point during the last few year, i remember the attorney general said, defensive briefings were routine and counter intelligence investigation, would you agree with that? >> i frankly don't have enough experience on the national security site to tell you one way or another. >> i heard that being said but i don't know specifically. >> you don't have any reasons to disagree. >> no reason to disagree. >> if they are routine, attorney general lynch is correct, the decision by the head of the division of the fbi not to provide an extensive defensive briefing to candidate trump and his campaign would be unusual. >> if it is usual then it is not doing it. it would be unusual. >> what was more unusual is the fact when the director of national intelligence went to
provide what turned out to be a briefing to the trump campaign lasting about 13 minutes, i think you indicated in your report. that they had implanted into that group, an agent, an fbi agent that was part of the investigative team for across fire hurricane. >> the agent, there was one fbi agent there and they chose the agent from the intelligence investigation. >> instead of their mission to provide candidate trump and campaign to arm them with information so that they can prevent the russians from infiltrating their campaign, this briefing such as it was had a duo purpose. the agent it says on page 342 of your report prepared himself going through mock briefings, headed by stroke and lisa page and the general counsel unit
chief, correct? >> that's correct. >> this was not just an accidental sort of thing. there were plans made for the ajept to go in as part of this defensive briefing and perhaps get general flynn to offer information that may be helpful to the fbi in their investigation. >> it was duo purposes, one was to see if anything was said in response to the briefing that would be useful for cross fire hurricane but also agents told us for future interviews of mr. flynn. >> so mr. flynn was clearly the target. >> he was the three people there from the trump campaign from the only one of the three about whom who was a subject of the fbi investigation. >> he was not told that he was
under investigation or the ajget was there hoping to bait him or providing krcriminology -- >> he certainly was not told it is a duo purpose investigation. >> you pointed out this will never happen again, is that what you said? >> that's correct. >> are you familiar with the fact that director comey had a meeting with president trump january 2017 to talk to him about the steele dossier. >> i am and we referenced that of the report of him handling the memos. >> why do we believe director
comey so-called defensive briefing of the president, was there anything more than in an attempt to abate the president and be useful to the fbi and counter intelligence and some future investigation. >> as mentioned earlier, one of the concerns doing that here is that it leaves open the possibility that people may ask it may happen elsewhere. >> it strikes me, it fought with danger just like it was for general flynn for the director to go in the white house, the oval office and the white house not to tell the president that anything he says could be used against him in an ongoing investigation including criminal charges. i agree with the chairman. if this is going to happen to a presidential candidate or the president of the united states,
what kind of protection the average american citizens have that their government won't erase this vast power against them and essentially ruin their lives. to me that's a profound concern as a result of your investigation. >> thank you, mr. chairman. picking up on that. i have been joining senator lee for year talking about this court. we have ample record here. internal fbi revealed dozens of in accuracies provided by the court. the list goes on and on. let's haves the future of the fizor court and the reputation. >> mr. hardwick thank you for being here. the chairman gave an
uncharacteristic opening and went on for 40 minutes and produced lent thigthy e-mails. when i read your summary, you didn't find either of them to be in charge, did you? >> on this investigation, we did not. >> when it comes to expletives, on page 339 in the report found some agents of the fbi who had opposite viewpoints and positive towards candidate trump and open on their expertists to demonstrate that. >> we are in a different field office. >> we don't believe anyone in
the capacity with life-changing decision like every single day should be so politically bias to call into question of their values and character. >> that's correct and i made this point last year when this issue came up. individual of the usjustice department. they can't go tie their personal use to theirnvestigative. >> that's one of the things you sheared with director wray. >> correct. >> the chairman made a point talking about the fact that the trump campaign was not notified of this ongoing investigation until a much later day after been initiated. >> and i would just say be careful what you wish for. there are those of us who looked at the james comey, october 28th, public declaration of the hillary clinton investigation as
being deadly in terms of the outcome of this election. there is a notion of the fbi publicizing investigations and making it known to many people can cut both ways. it is good to know them, i am sure. you run the risk as more people come to know it, it becomes a public knowledge, is that an issue? >> we wrote a report about that, concerns of what the director did in that regard and you want to control the information and make sure the only people need to know it. >> did the chairman's opening suggested a bias in this instance with the fbi and others against donald trump that he believes those manifest in many things have followed. i can argue from our side of the table, we can finds bias including comey staples before the election, really had many in our points of view determines the outcome. >> let me go back to rudy
giuliani. here is something during the 2016 campaign, rudy giuliani was trump's campaign surrogate. bragged about having access to information of the investigation. he teesased in september that a surprise is coming. >> rudy giuliani says and i quote. i expected this, did i hear about it? you are darn right i heard about it." >> how could we be dealing with those kinds of statements that long ago and still not have some evolution. if i remember right, one of comey's rational, is public announcement was, i could not do it through the new york office. has there been no investigation of this? >> as i mention last year when we released our report on the clinton e-mail investigation, we were looking at that question
and the challenge as i mentioned back then and i will mention it again proving who spoke to whom and when based on the record of the fbi and understanding there is rarely going to be submiss e information we'll get. we are trying to follow-up and continue to do that. we issued two reports so far about findings we have of leaks and misconduct. we have extradition ongoing. >> are there any concerns that mr. rudy giuliani is continuing to obtain information and sources of law enforcement. >> i am not going to speak to what we have learned or what we
know about our ongoing investigation and i am not investigating matters related to the ongoing ukraine issues that i can do referencing. >> let me ask if i ccan ask question about problems within this case as it relates to the treatment of individuals who are engaged and i am thinking particularly of ongoing questions about whether or not -- in your conclusion that he was not a russian agent. did not have important context that were not in the best interest of the united states with the russian leadership? >> i am not in position to assess that. what i can say access is looking
at the evidence that the fbi put forward to the court, significant number of pieces of that evidence do not support their theory. they're the experts and not me. >> could we speak to the steele dossier. i believe you had a standard statement about what impact that steele file had on the initiation of this investigation. what was your conclusion? >> in toeerms of initiation, it had no impact. it was not known to the team that opened the investigation the time they opened it. you concluded several different ways of no evidence of political influence but the opening of this hurricane investigation, is that correct? >> correct. >> on the reform issue, let me
get there later. one thing that's interesting here and he introduced the bill which would give the inspector again general's office to investigate in the department. right nous thatw it is not corr under the law. >> it was not. >> back in 1988 when the ig created the justice, the compromise was attorneys would be carved out. so as the fbi and da at the time. after the audrey james spy scandal, attorney ash changed out and gave us the authority of da and congress codyfied it in
2002. we are the only ig can't view conduct of all the employees including attorneys. >> he has the authority to do that. this statue in change took that away. >> mr. chairman, i hope you are considering that. >> thank you for your service. >> thank you, i will go to senator sass. 30 second s here. >> has anybody been charged with working with the russians illegally working with the russians that were part of the trump campaign that you were apart of. >> not that i know of. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. i find the conclusion that some have raised, your report, m
missister, exonerate the fbi in this matter. to the point that it makes me wonder whether those were making this argument read the same report that we are talking about today. perhaps, you are talking about a different report? there is no planet on which i think this report indicates that things were okay within the fbi and in connection of this investigation. they were not and stunningly, former fbi james comey took to the pages of "the washington post" to declare that this report, your report shows the fbi fulfilled its mission protecting the american people and upholding the u.s. constitution. i don't understand that. i find it absolutely stunning that he would reach that conclusion. >> this is nonsense. >> i don't care where you sit on
the political spectrum, if you are a politicians or a non poll traditions or a liberal or civic center park. regardless of your age. you should be deeply concerned about what's in your report. >> is report a scathing indictment of the fbi, o f the agents that were involved and i want to be clear about that. the fbi is an institution that has a long history of respect in this country. as a federal prosecutor, i work with the fbi, i am so concerned by your reporting and findings. i think this really damages that. there is a lot of who in this
country that comes not just from the fbi being good but also understood to be good. the behavior out lined in your report is at a minimum. so negligence, i would say so reckless that it calls into question the legitimacy of the entire fizor program. i don't say it likely. i question the program and how it could be abused but this really pushes us over the edge. i will get back to that in a minute. >> the report includes that the report ecologist did not find documentary on the part of the case's agents who were involved in investigating the trump
campaign. the report goes onto call the conduct of the agents and the supervisors involved to be quote, "serious performance failure." which you noted were failures for which you did not receive a satisfaction explanation. is that right? >> correct. this >> this is the failure that jim comey considered a fulfilled mission, protecting the constitutional rights of the american people? i think not. this is simply not good enough.
maybe it is not good enough for mr. comey, it is not good enough for the american people. every american should be terrified by this report. the fbi team that investigated the trump campaign as was as been pointed out hand picked. it was not the case that they would just pick any ordinary investigators to investigate a presidential campaign especially the presidential campaign of one of the two major party nominees. it is in the report which is the most sensitive fbi investigation is agents were supposed to be the best of the best. we would not expect anything less of that. they were supposed to be the highest character and professionalism and committing in protecting civil liberties of all americans. our privacy is not at odds with our security.
we can't be secure, unless our privacy is guaranteed. our republican form of government is i mperial. we are faced with two possibilities. either one, the fbi agents purposely use the power of the federal government to wage a political war against a presidential candidate they despise or these agents were so incompetent that they allow a paid foreign political operative to weapon size the vizer
program. they're both horrifying for slightly different reasons. now the fact that you said there was a cause of connection between them, if there was a sonic -- a causal change was besides the point. they made their bias clear and they went after someone in part because they did not like his candidacy and that's unexcusable. the report in the fbi, abuse. i believe it is long standing abuse or inevitably abuse and
the. >> should it not be a tremendous surprise for us. >> men were angels, they would not need a government. if we had access to angels to govern us, we would not rules. we are not angels, we don't have access to angels to govern us. we have to have checks and balances to make sure no one entity gets too much power and added to those checks and balances. we have the fourth amendment, we have things that are there to protect us. >> i believe for some time as been noted earlier in the hearing and i have teamed up with people at the opposite end of the political idealogical .
i observed in the senate, i believe these programs are subject to abuse. i have been warning for years that inevitably, it will result in abuse. it is not a question of "if" but when. how soon will government officials get caught doing it. it surprises me in some ways that took us this long. again, that's what happens. when you take a standard that's malleable that requires virtually no public accountability, you render all but a small handful of intelligence committee lawmakers in the house and in the senate, you render all citizens other than them and the intel committee themselves. ineligible to review their work and then you make it possible for them to gather information,
this kind of thing is of course going to happen. it is never not going to happen and that scares me to death. >> now, inspector general, you stated several times in your opening statement and response to question that you did not find documentary testimonial evidence of bias that influenced the fbi's decision to conduct these operations. but, is not the lack of evidence that you are talking about, itself is evidence of bias? is it the lack of evidence on bias? evidence that we should take as bias but in any event, it is not in itself indicative that no bias occurred. is that correct? >> as to the opening which is in a different place than the fisa
issue that you identified and i talked about it earlier, i think it is different situations. on the fisa side, we found as you noted a lack of documentary of intentionality, we notice the lack of satisfaction and leaving open the possibilitity for the reasons you indicated. it is unclear what the motivations were. on the one happened, gross, incompetence and negligence. my point is your lack of evidence here is not evidence that there was no bias. >> it is solely correct on the actual evidence that we have. thank you very much. >> you did make a finding of that question, did you not?
i direct you to page 14 of the summary. management and supervisery that were not particular to this case but epidemic. >> on the fisa side? >> it raises significant questions of management and supervision of the process. you then go onto describe as a failure of managers and supervisors. >> right. >> and you go onto say your remedy as an oig audit not only of this case but of other case. >> so you actually make a finding about this is you attribute a failure here and
supervision that can well go on particular case. >> you make no finding that it was attributable to deep state or conspiracy or any such motivation. we make no findings, we explain in there that we did not have document testimony evidence that it was intentional and we point out the lack of satisfaction explanations and from there, i can't try any further conclusions. other than you do, what you go with is there is a failure of management and supervision over this complicated process that needs to be prepared from top to bottom. what's the timeline on the attorney general getting notice on this report. how long did it take for when he fe first saw this or credit this to
the department of justice. we first provided the draft for classification marking purposes right at the beginning of september. so he and his team got it for well over a month. we got it back with them with the markings and did normal process in a classified review and incorporated the markings and produced back. >> the director of the fb fbi -- time frame? >> same exact time frame. >> he complimented you on professionalism and he accepts the report findings. >> correct. >> with plenty of time to review it. >> correct. >> then we get to mr. durham. did he have access to this report at the same period of time? >> no, we did fot ginot give it him. it was for classification purposes. he had no reason to see it. >> we were careful as to who could see it and who could not.
the department keep list of who could see it or could not. he was not on the list. we provided to him in the november as part of our factual accuracy. >> november when, do you remember? >> i could check, it was probably roughly mid november. >> are you familiar of whattest under taking at all. he notes that he does not agree with some of your report conclusion of how the fbi case was opened. what information do you think he has access to that you did not have access to? >> i have no idea. >> when you look at director wray's letter, he says his organization, the fbi provided broad and timely access to all information, requested by the oag including highly classified
and sensitive materials and accepts -- i am trying to figure out where the world of evidence exists about predication that you diplomat have access to and that fbi director wray would not have access to. where could john durham be doing where you have access to or director wray has access to. >> you have to ask the attorney general. is there some area of evidence that you are aware of that you did not get access to? >> i did not. >> i have no idea and i could
not say. >> going overseas. >> no idea, you have to talk with him. predication involves a threshold, did it not? when you hit your threshold, more evidence does not take it away, correct? >> correct. >> em also trying to figure out how it ends that even if he has more evidence that you did not have that takes away from the conclusion that the predication was adequate. >> you have to ask the attorney general that. >> you can't think of a way to get there? >> i don't know, we standby our findings. >> you describe serious performance failures in the pride of process. those are likely to lead to
disciplinary action or sanctions by the court to be considered for those things, correct? >> you have a chance to defend themselves. that goes to the department, the core or any entities that m may -- >> so we may find more if those process go forward in that content. >> now, let's look at the intelligence briefing. at the time of that intelligence briefing, what did the fbi know about how far russian interests have penetrated in to the trump campaign. i don't know as i sit here. we were looking at the origins of these four cases. >> the fbi clearly knew there was an investigation going on.
>> we laid out here of some of what they knew. >> he was associated with the trump campaign. >> correct. >> they knew and had an investigation going on in to michael flynn at the time? >> correct. >> did you know if they knew about the trump tower meeiting two months before the intelligence meeting? >> i don't know one way or another. >> going into it would be reasonable to expect the fbi did not then know how far russian penetration ended the trump campaign. >> i had no idea what stage the investigation was at that point in time. i had no reason to doubt what you were saying. >> there was no way they could rule out that people present of the intelligence briefing on behalf of the trump campaign may have been involved in the operation? >> i have no knowledge. all i know as to that is they had the investigation into mr.
flynn. >> they could not rule out when he was in that briefing, potential participant in the matter they were looking into. >> it was bigger than the pieces we were looking at. i can't sit here to tell you what else the fbi may or may have not known at the time. >> while we can agree that, p putting, cross fire hurricane agents into the intelligence briefing of the trump campaign may have been over aggressive for the fbi to be in that intelligence briefing would be perfectly appropriate, correct? >> in fact absolutely perfect to be there. that was the debate to go on internally fbi which is what to do. they never discuss it with anyone at the department.
>> maybe i should not have been in that briefing. >> intelligence purposes. >> for intelligence purposes. and it also would have been appropriate for across fire hurricane agent to have debrief the fbi agent at the intelligence briefing to see if michael flynn have sent anything relevant to the investigation. it was information potentially relevant to the investigation, was it not? depending what occur there, you could foresee a hypothetical. it raises series of policy questions, the fbi director needs to sort through and understand leadership of the department. that briefing and those briefings are for purposes of protecting campaigns and to allow transitions to occur. >> it was an unusual circumstance. the subject of the fbi
investigation. >> that's correct but it raises -- >> we should not draw the condition collusion that there is no way the fbi should be given access to evidence that arises in the context of the intelligence briefing related to counter intelligence. >> that'll be up to director wray as we in sporespond. >> thank you. the january meeting with the primary sub source, the russian guy who provided information, was there department of the justice official at that meeting? >> yes, let me clarify on that, the people present were primer sub source, his lawyer, the hurricane people and for parts of the interview, lawyers from
the division, they were there not knowing the background necessarily, they were there because the primary sub source has a lawyer. the fbi wanted a lawyer there. >> we are big on the fbi, department of justice, they were in the room, too? >> they were in the room but the reason we -- there is a number of instances with people getting dri drive-by and somebody tries to tag you something. >> fair enough. >> chairman. >> can i just close? >> one point from page 341. the fbi, mr. baker, holds the ig in the report as saying the agent in that investigation briefing, quote "was not there to induce anybody to say
anything, he was not there to do an under cover operation or elicit some type of testimony." >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i would like to start by taking the opportunity to thank you and the men and women who are gathered here. the work that you have done and the inspector general office is incredibly important. this is a 434 page report that lays out what i call a stunning indictment of the fbi and department of justice of any pattern of babusive of power. i would say the department of justice and the fbi have had principle professionals with the fidelity of the rule of law.
this indictment, i am an alumnus, it makes me angry. it should make them angry as well. the press have focused on your conclusion that you did not find evidence of political bias. that's a judgment you have, i disagree with that judgment. i think that judgment is in many ways the least significant component of this report. the facts that are in this report needs to be understood or deeply chilling to anyone who understands the facts in this report and people can draw inference as to why that pattern of abuse occurs? >> do you agree with that in. >> the purpose of this report is to lay out the facts for the public and everybody can debate and decide what they think this information is. i absolutely agree.
so this 434 page report, outlines 17 major errors and misstaples that were made by the fbi or the doj insecuring fisa warnings. a number of them are deeply troubling. f them are deeply troubling.
was what is referred to in your report as the interviewed that prime sorr so that is the basis of this dossier. what did the primary sub source say as the oig report says, interviews with the primary sub source raised, quote, significant questions about the reliability of the steele reporting. what did the sub source say specifically as your report says, it says steele misstated orst exaggerated multiple sectis of the reporting. it says portions of it particularly the more salacious portions were based on rumor and speculation. it says that some of the basis of that came from conversations with, quote, friends over beers and statements that were made in, quote, jest.
and the primary sub source also says to take the other sub sources, quote,th with a grain salt. the fbira had that information, knew that the basis of this dossier wassi saying it is unreliable and what did the fbi anddi doj do in renewal application number two and number three, the fbi advised the court, quote, the fbi found the russian based sub source to be truthful and cooperative with zero revisions. you note that as the most significant misstatement and that is going in front of a court of law, relying on facts that you know are unreliable without any basis. that was the number one. >> yeah. >> the number two major error in the applications was omitting carter page's prior relationship. we now have evidence that carter
page functioned as a source for a united states intelligence agency. that is a pretty darn important fact. if you are telling the fisa court, hey, the fact that this guy carter page, who i don't know this guy, but the fact that he is talking to russians really suspici suspicious the that can't that he is serving asic a source for intelligence agents is pretty darn relevant. we haveda a lot of sources that are talking to bad guys. and when you don't tell the court that, you are deceiving the court. but it is worse than just deceiving the court. because as the oig report details, an assistant general counsel in the fbi altered an email, fabricating evidence. reading from the report, specifically the words am not a source had been inserted into
the email. that email then was sent on to the officials responsibility to making the decisionof to go forward and as the report says from page 256, final paragraph, consistent with the inspector general act of 1978 and following oig's recovery that the ogc attorney had altered the email that he sent to the supervising agent who thereafter relied on to swear out the fifi fisa application. so a lawyer at the fbi, alters an email, that is in turn used as the basis for a sworn statement to the court that the court relies on. am i stating that accurately? >> that is correct, that is what occurred. >> and you have worked in law
enforcement a long time. is the pattern of a department of justice employee altering evidence and submitting fraudulent evidence that ultimately gets submitted to a course, is that common place, is that typical? >> i have not seen an alteration of an email end up impacting a court document like this. >> in any ordinary circumstance, if a private zitd dcitizen did this -- and it wasn't just slightly wrong. it was 180 degree wrong of what the evidence said. he assert this had guy is not a source. if a private citizen did that in any law enforcement investigation, if theyt fabricated evidence and reversed what it said, in your experience would that private citizen be prosecuted for b fabricating evidence and be progsz cuted e
obstruction of justice and perjury? >> they would be considered for that if there was an intentional evident. onti this one i will defer becae we noticed that we referred to the attorney general fbi for handling. >> third major omission that the department of justice and the fbi did not tell the court is that this entire operation was funded by the dnc, was funded by the hillary clinton campaign and by democrat, it was an on that poe o research dump. the most effective in history because the department of justice and fbi but pwere happye hatchet men. and they did not inform the fisa court that this is being paid for by the dnc and the hillary clinton? >> that is a not in any of the
fisa plisksapplications. >> and it is not like doj didn't know. indeed one of the senior department officials bruce ohr, his wife worked at fusion gps the company being paid by the dnc, and he became the principal liaison with steele without telling anyone at the department of justice that he was essentially workingpa on behalff the clinton campaign. whoai at the department of justice -- and by the way, several democrats, interesting seeing democratic senators ti wanting want ing defend this abuse of power. senator feinstein said the fbi didn't play spies in the trump campaign. senator leahy said something similar. not spies in the trump campaign, but reading from page four of the executive summary, your report says that there after the
crossfire hurricane team used the intrusive techniques including confidential human sources to interact and consensually record multiple conversations with page and papadopoulous both before and after they were working for the trump campaign as well as on one occasion with a high level trump campaign official who was not the subject of the investigation. so they didn't play spies in the campaign, but they sent spy senior levels of the campaign in the middle of the campaign when that was the nominee to the opposing party to the one in power. >> they sent confidential sources into do thouse. >> who at doj noe about this, did the attorney general, the white house? >> based on what we found, nobody had beenas told in advan. >> but once it was hatching, did they know? >> the only evidence that somebody knew were the attorney
in the national security division when they were told very selective portions. nobody noouf beforehand. nobody had been h. briefed. and that was one of the most concerning thingsas here, nobod needed to be hold. >> anded i can tell you from my time at the department of justice and in law enforcement, any responsible leader when hearing that you are talking about sending in spies and a wiretap on any presidential nominee should say what in the hell are we doing. and by the way the people up the chain who are saying we didn't know if you had responsible leadership, there is no more important decision than you make. i can tellim you when i was at gchlt och doj, if someone said let's tap bill clinton or john kerry, the people would have said what in the held are you talking about temperature this was jason bourne. this wason beavis and butthead.
>> it gets to john mccain, john mccain puts it in his safe, gives it to me and i read it. in the first thing i thought was, oh, my god. this could be russian disinformation or they could have this on trump. if you read this information in the first thing you would think it is they got something on donald trump. it's stunning, its end at salacious and it's a bunch of. >> senator lindsey graham, chairman of the senate judiciary committee talking about the steele dossier, the focus of this inspector general's report and this hearing in washington. your risk withere with chris wa. >> i think there is a lot of damaging information about the fisa warrants on the way was carried out, and it isn't just come up with this name of a
relatively low level fbi what lawyer, i just want to read you one statement in the opening statement. if we are deeply concerned of that basic and fundamental errors were made by three separate handpicked investigative teams on one of the most sensitive fbi investigations and that's the point. that wasn't just a one off. he made mistakes when putting in the original application but they had to review the application several times. that goes to the argument that i heard andy mccarthy making. can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a political bias there? no. but it sure does stink when you have three different teams and they are all pushing the same way and it's all for investigating and surveilling carter page. on the other hand i think that in our zeal to talk about the fisa warrant, and it's a serious deal, and i can understand the outrage about what was done and
the victimization of carter page, that doesn't mean the entire russia investigation was fraudulent. one of the points that pat lahey, the second ranking democrat on the committee made as he asked horowitz, how many times as carter page mentioned in the miller report? the answer, because horowitz didn't know, seven pages. so one of the points i think democrats will make is that can be true on the one hand that there was terrible misconduct or even potentially crimes in the pfizer application and the way in which carter page was treated by the federal government, but it doesn't mean that the entire russia investigation was there for illegitimacy. >> obviously the attorney general, and john durham have different thoughts about this. the attorney general is very explicitly saying the whole thing has been turned on its head by two and a half years of what they called garbage.
>> that certainly what he says although not as colorful or at great length, and you heard john durham, the u.s. attorney who is conducting this investigation raising the same concern. again i go back to when he was directly asked, did he say anything, i stood by my conclusions and he hasn't changed his position. >> just to look at the political side of this, just sort of watching how all of this worked, you think about the things that president trump said, and he was very outspoken last night at the rally as well. that sort of goes along the lines of, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that everyone is not out to get you. we look at how this was handled and the fact that we said earlier, he was never consulted about the concerns of what was
going on in his campaign. you can sort of see, that sort of the process as it gets unveiled. why he felt like the intelligence agencies or at least some of them were out to get them. >> he was looking at it through a political lens. and he's saying a lot of these people were threatened by me. the government agency, i just want you to know how much we appreciate your work and your team's work. likewise, i think it's important even though we are critical of the leadership of the fbi during the last administration, their
colleagues in the intelligence committee need to know that we are there. for them and support them in the faithful discharge of their responsibility. we i have the privilege of serving on the judicial committee and i would like to think there is no more ardent supporter. i believe that general hayden, when he wrote his book about the experience of the cia had it right, it was called playing to the edge. playing to the edge of the authorities. not over the line but up to the edge in interest of national security. but i think that also makes it important for us to root out illegality, deception and the exercise of the authorities that are given to our intelligence
committee. so let me ask you a little bit about that. because i can't think of anything more damaging to the intelligence committee, the fbi and the doj then what you have uncovered in this 400 page report, and what we've seen here. it really is very troubling. can i ask you, the foreign intelligence surveillance court as you have pointed out considers the application of a foreign intelligence surveillance warrant by the fbi working with the national disk security division and department of justice. do you believe that the court knew what you know now, that it would have everet ever issued ta warrant in the first place? >> we are careful not to predict what judges would do? i know that they would not sign a warrant if they were told not
all relevant information was included. >> or, if they were lied to. >> certainly if they were lied to. >> do you know if the court is considering this matter? >> i know the court, if they have the report and they have a follow-on letter from the department about this matter. >> while i hope they will not let this pass because this misbehavior, this illegality and deception, it becomes a routine. i agree with senator senator grt it will be the end of the authorities that congress has granted under the foreign intelligence surveillance act which i think would be damaging to our national security. the foreign intelligence surveillance act includes the word surveillance, obviously.
you can't surveillance and american citizen for intelligence purposes except under very specialized and exacting circumstances. would you agree with that? >> that's correct. >> because the rights are laid out in the bill of rights and there is a higher standard with regard to getting a warrant, let's say to wiretap or investigate an american citizen then there would be a foreign agent. is that correct? >> there are particularly sensitive circumstances around surveilling a u.s. person. >> so that the there by which the court authorizes the surveillance of mr. page was based on some proof for some indication or some suspicion he was an agent of a foreign power, correct? >> correct. we had probable cause to believe he was an agent of a foreign power. >> but as you pointed out there
was disbelief in that process, correct? >> so what's the difference between surveillance and spying? >> surveillance is what's in the law. the foreign intelligence surveillance act. >> you don't like my vernacular? >> i will stick to what we do as ig's. >> although its legally authorized, it is an act of covert intelligence gathering against if you are a foreign power or agent of a foreign power. let me ask you about the defensive briefing. you have explained in response to senator graham's questions
come up the difference between a counterintelligence investigation and a criminal investigation. i believe at some point during the last few years i remember loretta lynch, the former attorney general say, if that was the retaining counterintelligence investigations, would you agree with that? >> i don't have enough experience to tell you one way or the other. i've heard that they said but i don't know specifically. >> but you don't have a reason to disagree. >> no reason to disagree. >> so the decision by the head of the counterintelligence division of the fbi not to provide an extensive counterintelligence briefing or defensive briefing to canada trumpet or his campaign would be unusual. >> if its usual and not doing it, i agree it would be unusual. >> what was even more unusual is the fact that the director of national intelligence went to provide what turned out to be a
perfunctory briefing to the term campaign, lasted about 13 minutes, i think you indicated in your report. they had implanted into that group and agent, and fbi agent that was part of the investigative team for a cross fire hurricane, is that correct? >> that's correct. there was one fbi agent there and they chose agent from the counterintelligence investigation. >> to arm them with information, so that they could prevent the russians and infiltrating their campaign, the briefing such as it was had a dual purpose. they actually prepared themselves going through mock briefings. headed by peter strzok, lisa page, and possibly -- this
was not just an incidental sort of thing, obviously there were plans made for the agent to go in and as part of this defensive briefing and perhaps get general flynn to inadvertently offer information that might be helpful to the fbi in their investigation. >> and as explained to us it was dual-purpose. one thing that was said in response to the briefing, purposes immediately but also as the agents told us, for purposes of a future interview of mr. flynn. >> so mr. flynn was clearly the target. >> he was certainly of the three people there and from the trump campaign the only one of the three about home was the subject of an fbi investigation at the time.
>> and he wasn't told that he was under investigation or that the agent was there, hoping to bait him into providing increments or information, and the agent can provide him any declaration or admonishment of his miranda rights, correct? >> he certainly wasn't told there was a dual purpose. >> while he pointed out, this will never happen again. is that correct? >> that's correct. >> so let me ask you. are you familiar with the fact that director comey had a meeting with president trump in january of 2017 to talk to him about the steele dossier? >> i am and we actually referenced out in a report about his preparation and handling of the memos that came out of that meeting. >> why should we believe that director comey's so-called defensive briefing, if you want to call it that, of the president in january 2017 was
anything more than an attempt to try to beat the president into providing incremented tory information which would be useful to the fbi and its counterintelligence investigation, or potentially some future criminal investigation? >> as mentioned earlier, one of the concerns with doing that here is it leaves open the possibility that people might ask, did it happen elsewhere? >> it strikes me as fraught with danger, just like it was for general flynn and the director to go in to the white house, the oval office and the white house not to tell the president that anything he said could be used against him in a potential investigation including criminal charges. the final thing i would say is, if this could happen to the presidential candidate, what kind of protection t to do the
average american citizens have where the government won't array the vast power against them and essentially ruin their lives? to me that the profound concern as a result of your investigation. >> thank you mr. chairman. picking up on that editorial comment, i've been joining senator lahey and senator lee for years talking about the fisa court. you now have an ample record here, and in 2002 the fisa court identified more than 75 cases in which it was misled by the fbi. internal fbi in 2006 reveals dozens of inaccuracies and the list goes on and on. so let's have a fulsome conversation after this about the future of the pfizer cord and representations that are made to it. let me try if we can, to go through a few points. the chairman gave an uncharacteristic, flowery,
heated opening that went on for some 40 minutes and produced a lengthy record of emails from lisa page and peter strzok which repeatedly demonstrated statements of hostilities toward candidate donald trump. he went on to say that these were the people in charge. when i read your summary of your findings we didn't find either of them to be in charge, did you? >> in this investigation we did not. >> when it comes to expletives, you also found some agents at the fbi who had exactly opposite political viewpoints, who were very positive toward candidate trump and very open in the use of expletives. >> those individuals to be clear were in a different field office. >> i hope we can all concede the full point that i don't believe
anyone in this delicate capacity with life changing decision making single day should be so politically biased as to call into question their values and their character. >> that's correct. i made that point last year when this came up. individuals in the justice department are allowed to have political views and they are allowed to be voters and allowed to be engaged citizens, they should be. they can't tie the personal use to their investigative acts. >> and i'm sure that's one of the things you shared with director ray. >> correct. >> the chairman made a point early on talking about the fact that the term campaign was not notified of this ongoing investigation until much later date after you have been initiated. i would say be careful what you wish for because there are those of us who look at the james comey october 28 public declaration about the hillary clinton investigation as being deadly in terms of the
outcome of this election. so the notion of the fbi publicizing investigations and making them known to many people can cut both ways. it's good to know i'm sure but you run the risk that as more people come to know it it becomes public knowledge, is that an issue? >> who brought up last year's report about the concern about what director comey did in that regard and you obviously want to control information and make sure that only the people who actually need to know it. >> the point i'm trying to get to is the chairman's opening suggested a bias at least in this instance of the fbi and others against donald trump that he believes was manifest in many of the things that followed. i could argue for my side of the table that we could find bias that includes commie statement right before the public election that really had in many of our points of view, a determinative outcome. let's go back to rudolph giuliani.
because here's something. during the 2016 campaign, rudy giuliani was on the trump campaign surrogate brag about having access to the investigation for clinton's emails. he teased in october 16 that a surprise was coming. and when director comey sent a letter reopening the investigation, rudy giuliani said, and i quote, i expected this. did i hear about it? you're darn right i heard about it. so how can we be dealing with that and some resolution as to whether or not he was also bluffing? as i remember, one of his rationales for his public announcement was, i couldn't do it for the new york office because it leaks like a sieve. was there no investigation or has there been no investigation into this? >> as i mentioned last year when we released our report on the clinton investigation, we were looking at and we are looking at
still that question and the challenge of that investigation, proving who spoke to whom, and when, based on records at the fbi. and understanding that there is rarely going to be substantive information that we will get. for example from toll records or others, but we will find out contexts. we've issued two reports so far about findings that we had about leaks and misconduct, and we have investigations that are ongoing. >> mr. giuliani no professes to be president trump's lawyer. are there any concerns about continuing to obtains sources -- not authorized to provide it?
>> i want to talk about what we've learned and i'm not investigating matters related to the ongoing ukraine issues that i think you're referencing. >> let me ask if i can on this question, and the problems within this case particularly as they relate to the treatment of individuals who are engaged in it. and i'm thinking particularly of ongoing questions about whether or not one particular individual is treated fairly here. is it your conclusion that he was not -- mr. page was not a russian agent or did not have important contacts that were not in the best interest of the united states with russian leadership? >> i'm not in position to assess that. what i can assess is the effort
that fbi put forth to the fisa court, a significant number of pieces of evidence do not support their theory of the case and that was never told to the justice department lawyers who are the ones who are the gatekeepers and have to be able to make that decision. they are the experts, not me. >> can we speak for a moment to the steele dossier? i believe we have a new a definitive statement about what impact that had on the initiation of this investigation. what was your conclusion? >> in terms of the initiation, it was not known to the team that open the investigation at the time they opened it. >> so you have concluded in several different ways that there is no evidence of political influence for the opening of this cross fire hurricane investigation. is that correct? >> that's correct.
one thing that's interesting here, and senator lee is not with us at this moment, but he's introduced a bill which i'm cosponsoring which would give the inspector general's office in this circumstance the authority to investigate attorneys in the department. right now that's not allowed under the law, is it? >> that's correct, it is not. and thank you for cosponsoring the bill. >> do you know what the theory is behind it being separate and not subject to the investigation? >> this is a legacy of history, when the ig was created of justice, the compromise was that an attorney would be carved out. and we would have jurisdiction over everybody else. after the aldrich ames spy scandal, gave us the authority over fbi. attorneys still -- we are the only ig that can't reveal
conduct of all the employees in our organization including attorneys. >> and attorney general ashcroft was authorized to give that kind of option? >> under the statute as it then existed he had the authority to do that. statutory change took that away. >> i think we will go to senator, but 30 seconds here. has anybody been charged with working with the russians illegally, working with the russians that were part of the trump campaign that you know of? >> not that i know of. >> okay. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. i find the conclusion that your report, mr. horowitz, somehow exonerates the fbi in this
matter. to be crazy, absolutely crazy. to the point where it almost makes me wonder whether those who are making this argument i have the same report that we are talking about today, perhaps they are talking about a different report. there is no planet on which i think this report indicates that things were okay within the fbi, in connection with this investigation. they most certainly were not. and yet stunningly, former fbi director jim comey took to the pages of "the washington post" to declare that this report -- your report, shows that "the fbi fulfilled its mission protecting the american people. i don't understand that, i find it absolutely stunning that he would reach that conclusion. this is nonsense. they don't care where you fit on the political spectrum.
if you are a politician or if you are a nonpolitician. if you are a liberal or conservative, liberal or democrat, regardless of your age, your views, you should be deeply concerned about what is in your report, mr. horowitz. this report is a scathing indictment of the fbi. of the agents that were involved. and i want to be clear about that because the fbi is an institution that has a long history of respect in this country. and as a federal prosecutor, we worked with the fbi. many of its agents are people of the utmost integrity and thoroughness. and that is part of why i'm so concerned about your report and its findings. i think this really damages that and there is a lot of good in this country that comes not just from the fbi being good but also
being understood to be good. the behavior outlined in your report is at a minimum so negligent. i would actually say so reckless, that it calls into question the legitimacy of the entire pfizer program. and i don't say that lightly. i say this as someone who has long questioned the pfizer program and how it could be abused. but this really pushes us over the edge. and i will get back to that in a minute. the report concludes, way too generously in my view, that the report did not find documentary or intentional evidence on the part of misconduct on the part of the case agents who were
investigating the trump campai campaign. the report comes on to call the conduct of the agents on the supervisors involved to be "serious performance failures" which you noted were failures for which you did not receive. serious performance failures. failures without any type of -- jim comey astoundingly, astonishingly considers a fulfilled mission. a mission that includes among other things protecting the rights of the american people. that could be protecting the american people and upholding the constitution, i just can't understand it. and that's simply not good enough. it might be good enough for
mr. call me but it's not good enough for the american people. many americans should be terrified by that report. the fbi team that investigated the trump campaign was as has been pointed out handpicked. after all, it couldn't, wouldn't and wasn't the case that they would just pick any ordinary investigators to investigate a presidential campaign. especially the presidential campaign of one of the two major party nominees. or, what was acknowledged in the report for one of the most sensitive fbi investigations. these agents were supposed to have been the best of the best and we wouldn't have expected anything less in that circumstance. they were supposed to be of the highest character and professionalism. our privates are is not at odds with our security, our privacy is inextricably intertwined with and indeed an integral part of
our security. we certainly can't be secure in our republican form of government if after all our republican form of government is imperiled by people who criticize intelligence gatherings and law enforcement apparatus that our federal government has. so we are faced with two possibilities. either one, these fbi agents purposely use the power to wage a political war against a presidential candidate that they despised, or, number two, these agents were so incompetent that they allowed a paid a foreign political operative to weaponized the pfizer program into a spying operation on a rival presidential political campaign. i'm not sure about you but i'm not sure which one is worse.
i am sure that neither conclusion is acceptable. they are both horrifying for slightly different reasons and i'm not sure there is a substantive distinction between the two of them. i'm not sure if one can conclude -- not sure it's possible to conclude that the biased evidence in communications between these investigators wasn't at least part of it. the fact that you say there wasn't a causal connection between them, between those communications and the opening of the investigation itself is beside the point. the fact is, these are agents who made their biased clear and they went after someone in part because they did not like his candidacy and, that's inexcusable. the report of the fbi's abuse -- i believe its long-standing abuse, i believe it's inevitable abuse of pfizer and of the fisa court to surveilled american
citizens should innocence not be of tremendous surprise to us. james madison warned us against this very kind of thing in federalist 51. he said if men were angels we wouldn't need -- we wouldn't need rules about government. but we don't have access to angels to govern us and so we have to have auxiliary precautions. we have to have checks and balances come up to make sure that no one person or no one entity gets too much power and added to those checks and balances we also have sensitive limitationsubstantive limitatioe fourth amendment. those things are there to protect us. i believe for some time as has been noted earlier in this hearing, and i've teamed up with people at the opposite end of the political and ideological spectrum that pfizer carries
with it an unexpectable, unacceptable risk of abuse. i believe these programs are subject to abuse. i've been warning them for years that inevitably come these would result in abuse. it's not a question of if, but when, and how soon will government officials get caught doing it. it actually surprises me in some ways that it took us this long to find an instance where we would get caught. but then again, that is what happens. it you take a standard that is malleable, requires virtually no public accountability, you render all but a small handful of intelligence committee lawmakers in the house and the senate. you render all other citizens other than them and other than the intel community itself ineligible to review their work. then, you make it possible for them to gather information and this kind of thing is of course
going to happen. it's never not going to happen and that scares me to death. now inspector general horowitz, you stated several times today both in your opening statement in response to questions that you did not find documentary and testimonial bias to conduct these operations. but, it's certainly not soft vindictive of any bias. >> as to the opening, and on the
pfizer side, we found as you noted, in fact, on the one hand, gross incompetence and negligence. on the other hand intentionali intentionality, we weren't in a position with the evidence that we had to make that conclusion. >> that's on the actual evidence that we have. >> thank you very much. >> mr. horowitz, you actually did make a finding on that very question, did you not? i direct you to page 14 of the
executive summary. where you ascribe this to management and supervisory failures that were not specific to this case but that were potentially endemic. it is that not correct? >> i'm sorry. they were made by three separate handpicked teams, significant develop mints regarding the chain of commands and supervision of the process. you then go on to describe it as failure of the managers and you go on to say that her remedy is an oid audit not only of this case -- >> they attribute the failure here to a failure of management and supervision that could well go beyond this particular case.
>> that was attributable, can contribute elbow deep state conspiracy, >> we make no finding and we explain in there that we did not have documentary evidence that was intentional, and we also point out the lack of satisfactory explanations. from there, i can't draw any further conclusions. other than you do what you go with. that was a failure of management and supervision over that complicated process that needs to be repaired. >> from top to bottom? >> correct. now what's the timeline on the attorney general getting notice of that report? how long did it take between when he first saw this and when he credited this. >> well, we first provided the
draft report for classification marketing purposes, right at the beginning of september. end of august or beginning of september. so he and his team have had it for more than a month. while over a month. >> so we did the normal process in a classified review and then we then incorporated the markings and then produced it back in november for the factual accuracy. >> the director of the fbi would have had access to it in that time frame. a complement did you on your professionalism and thoroughness and said he accepts the findings, correct? >> with plenty of time to review it. then we get to mr. durham. did mr. durham have access to this report during that same period of time? >> we did not give it to him at the end of august and september precisely because it was for classification purposes. he had no resources yet and we were very careful as to who could see it and who couldn't. we had the department keep lists
of who could see it and who couldn't see it and he was not on the list. we provided that to him in november as part of our factual accuracy. >> november win, do you remember? >> at have to check but it was probably roughly mid-november. are you familiar with what he is undertaking at all? >> i am somewhat but i would pretend to be completely friendly with it. he notes that he does not agree with some of your reports and conclusions as to predication and how the fbi case was open. what information do you think he has access to that you did not have access to? >> i have no idea. >> when you look at the director's letter, he said that his organization the fbi provide a broad and timely access to all information requested by the oig including highly classified and sensitive material.
and he accepts that the hurricane investigation was done for unauthorized purpose. i'm trying to figure out where the world of evidence exists about predication that you didn't have access to and fbi director ray would not have access to. where could john durham be going for information that is outside of the scope that you have access to or what fbi director ray has access to? >> i don't know and you'd have to ask the attorney general. >> i think -- we are not, we got a million records and we asked the fbi for all of the materials in their possession including from other agencies. >> i couldn't say if i knew. >> is he going overseas to
debrief foreign agents? >> i would have to talk with h him. >> predication involves a threshold, does it not? >> correct. for opening an investigation. >> and when you have hit your predication threshold, more evidence -- as long as the evidence is adequate, more evidence doesn't take it away, correct? >> correct. so i'm also trying to figure out how it is that, even if he had more evidence that you did not have come up that takes away from your conclusion that predication was adequate. >> i think you'd have to ask him or the attorney general. >> i can't -- so you describe serious performance failures in the pfizer process and those are likely to lead to either a
disciplinary action or to sanctions by the court. or at least be considered by those things. and, that's a due process involved. >> we are not the adjudicators, that goes to the department and the court and any other entities. >> so we might find out more as those processes go forward in the context. >> correct. now, let's look at the intelligence briefing. at the time of the intelligence briefing, what did the fbi know about how far russian interests had penetrated into the trump campaign? >> i don't know as i sit here, the level and extent of the fbi knowledge. we were looking at the origins of the hurricane investigation in these four cases. but the fbi clearly knew that there was investigation going on. >> and, they knew the concerns
about carter page. they knew the investigation, they had the investigation going on in to michael flynn of the time. do you know if they knew about the trump tower meeting two months before the intelligence meeting? >> i don't know one way or the other. >> and going into it, it would be reasonable, wouldn't it, to expect that the fbi did not then know how far russian penetration into the trump campaign went? >> i have no idea at what stage their investigation was at, and there was no way that they rule out people at the intelligence be briefing, or on behalf of the trump campaign which might have been involved in the russian operation. >> i have no knowledge of that but all i know as to that is they had opened the investigation on flynn.
so there's no way to rule out when he was actually in that briefing, and a potential participant in the matter that they were looking into. >> as they said, it was bigger than the pieces they were looking at. >> so while we can agree that putting cross fire hurricane agent into the intelligence briefing of the trump campaign might have been overaggressive, for the fbi to be in that intelligence briefing would be perfectly appropriate, correct? >> in fact absolutely, they never -- they did not discuss either with anyone at the department, there was no reason -- >> it should have been at that briefing for
intelligence purposes. >> it also would have been perfectly appropriate for a cross fire hurricane agent to have debriefed the fbi agent, and it was information potentially relevant to the investigation, was it not? >> and that briefing and those briefings are for the purposes of protecting campaigns and allowing transitions to occur. and it was an unusual circumstance. a participant in that briefing on the part of the trump campaign was the subject of the fbi investigation.
>> that is correct but it raises -- we should not draw the conclusion that there is no way the fbi should ever be given access to evidence that arises in the context of an intelligence briefing related to counterintelligence. >> >> time has expired, thank you. the meeting of the primary sub source, wasn't there a justest official of that meeting? >> the hurricane people, and for parts of the interview, lawyers from the national security
division, they were there not knowing the background, necessarily. the primary sub source had a lawyer. so the fbi wanted a lawyer there in case there were lawyer issues. >> so we are beating up on the fbi and i think appropriately so at some points but the department of justice were in the room, too. >> they were in the room, and there's a number of instances where people get drive-bys. and, the fbi's mr. baker told the ig and is quoted in the report as saying, the agent and not investigative briefing "was not there to induce anybody to say anything.
he was not there to do an undercover of operation or elicit some type of statement or testimony. >> thank you. >> senator cruz. >> thank you mr. chairman. i want to start by taking the opportunity for an thank you and the members of your team, the work you have done in the inspector general's office is incredibly important. reading this report, this is a 435 page report that lays out what i would consider to be a stunning indictment of the fbi and the department of justice. of a pattern of abuse of power. and i will say, both the department of justice and the fbi for decades have had a great many honorable principled professionals with the fidelity for the rule of law. and this indictment, and that
expects me to be nonpartisan and faithful to the law and it should make them angry as well. the press has focused on your specific conclusion that you did not find evidence of political bias. that's a judgment you have and i disagree with that judgment. but i think that judgment is in many ways the least significant component of this report. i think the facts that, then people could draw the influence as to why that pattern of abuse occurs. >> do you agree with what he just said? >> i think the purpose of this report is to lay out the facts for the public and everybody can debate and decide what they think of this information. i absolutely agree. >> so this 434 page report
outlines 17 major errors and misstatements. that were made by the fbi or doj in securing the fisa warrants. a number of them are deeply, deeply troubling. these are not typos, these are not small inadvertent errors, these are grotesque abuses of power. the primary sub source, the primary sub source that indeed the first error that you note in the second, third and fourth application for the fisa warrant is the primary sub source reporting that raises serious questions about the accuracy of the steele dossier which we now know was a bunch of malarkey, to use a term that's been in the news lately. and, that the fisa court was not informed of that. now let's get specific. the basis of the steel report
was once referred to in your report as the primary sub source. that was a principal basis. and at the fbi interviewed that primary sub source not once, not twice, but three times in january, march, in may 2017. so that's a basis of the dossier. what did the primary sub source say? the interview with the primary sub source raised "significant questions about the reliability of the reporting period does not say that portions of it, particularly of the more salacious and portions were based on "rumor and speculation. it says that some of the basis of that came from conversations from "friends over beers and statements that were made in jest." and the primary sub source also
says to take the other sub sources "with a grain of salt." the fbi had that information, and they knew that the basis of this dossier was saying it is unreliable. what do the fbi and doj do? and renewal application number two and number three, the fda advised the court "the fbi found the sub source to be cooperative with zero revisions and you note that as the most significant misstatement. and that is going in front of the court of law, relying on facts that you know are unreliable without any basis. that was the number one. at the two major error in the applications was omitting carter page's prior relationships.
and that's a pretty darn important fact. i don't know this guy carter page but the fact that he's talking to russians is really suspicious. the fact that he is serving as a source for u.s. intelligence agents is pretty darn relevant, and you don't tell the court that, you are deceiving the court. but it's worse than just deceiving the court. because as the oig report details, and assistant general counsel and the fbi, altered on email. fabricated evidence. and reading from the oig report, specifically the words, "and not a source" have been inserted into the email.
at that email was then sent on to the officials responsible for making the decision to go forward and as a report said, -- let me read on page 256 of the report. consistent with the inspector general act, the attorney had altered the email that he had sent to the supervising agent who thereafter relied on it to swear out the final application. a lawyer at the fbi creates fraudulent evidence, alters an email, and that is in term used as a basis for this one statement of the court that the court relies on. >> you have worked on law enforcement a long time.
as the pattern of a department of justice employee altering evidence and submitting fraudulent evidence that ultimately get to the court? >> i have not seen an alteration of an email and that's impacting a court document like this. >> in any ordinary circumstance, a private citizen did this. what he inserted was not slightly wrong, it was 180 degrees opposite of what they said. the intelligence agency said this guy is a source and he inserted that this guy is not a source. if a private citizen fabricated evidence and reversed what it said, in your experience, without private citizen be prosecuted for fabricating evidence, obstruction of justice, perjury? >> they certainly would be
considered for that if there was an intentional effort to deceive the court. on this one, i am going to defer. as we noted here in the sentence you indicated, we are reverted to the attorney general and the fbi director for handling. >> major omission that the department of justice and the fbi did not tell the court, this entire operation was funded by the dnc, funded by the hillary clinton campaign ad by democrats. it was an oppo research done. at some level, this is the most effective oppo research dump in history because the department of justice and fbi were perfectly happy to be hatchet men. for this oppo research dump. throughout every one of the filings, doj and the fbi didn't inform the fisa court that this was being paid for by the dnc and hillary clinton campaign, is that right? >> it is not in any of the fisa
applications. >> it's not like doj didn't know. one of the senior department of justice officials, bruce ohr, his wife worked at fusion gps, the oppo research company being paid by the dnc. and he became the principal liaison with christopher steele without telling anyone at the department of justice that he was essentially working on behalf of the clinton campaign. who at the department of justice and by the way, several democrats, it's interesting seeing democratic senators wanting to defend this abuse of power. several senators. senator feinstein said "the fbi didn't placed spies in the trump campaign." senator leahy said something similar. it may be true, not spies in the trump campaign but reading for your report and page 4 of the executive summary, your report says thereafter the cross fire
hurricane team use the intrusive techniques including confidential human sources to interact and consensually record multiple conversations with paige and papadopoulos before and after they were working with the trump campaign as well as on one occasion with a high-level trump campaign official who was not the subject of the investigation. they didn't place spies in the campaign but they sent spies to record senior members of the campaign in the middle of a presidential campaign when that candidate was the nominee for the other major party that was the opposing party to the one in power. is that right? >> they sent confidential human sources into do those. >> did anyone at doj, who at doj knew about it? did the attorney general know? did the white house no? >> based on what we found, nobody had been told in advance. the only evidence that somebody
new worthy lion attorneys in the national security division when they were told selective portions of what had occurred. nobody knew beforehand. nobody had been briefed. frankly, that was one of the most concerning things. nobody needed to be told. >> i can tell you from my time at the department of justice and from my time in law enforcement, any responsible leader when hearing that you're talking about sending in spies and sending it a wiretap on any presidential nominee should say what in the hill are we doing? the people up the chain who are saying we didn't know, if you had responsible leadership, there is no more important decision to make. when i was at doj if someone had said let's tap bill clinton or john kerry, the people would have said what in the hell are we talking about? this wasn't jason bourne. this was beavis and butthead. >> i want to tone things down a
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