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just for the summations now, you can't bring the president there for the whole trial because people say, well, doesn't he have better things to do than sit here for a week, but for summations for a few hours, it would not have been inappropriate to do that's interesting. >> so you think a president biden being in there would have been helpful? i'm sure that discussion was had between the biden family and abbe lowell and they decided against it. >> and i can understand there are reasons to decide against it, but if you do bring the president there, it does show respect for the system that he's there sitting as a father interested in the fate of his son, but he's not there. and you would have to acknowledge it. he's not there as the president of the united states he's there as the father of hunter biden? >> yeah. >> i mean, it is remarkable. abbe lowell going 90 minutes today with the jury was closing their eyes and some points. is that a bad sign look, it's it's not great, but you can't read too much into that. >> yeah. >> we're not us to bill, we will be waiting to see if there is verdict tomorrow. thank you for joining us tonight. thank you all so much for joining us, as well as we continue to monitor all the news here at cnn, seen a news night with abby phillip starts right now the donald trump, his rally diehards that's tonight on these good evening. i'm abby phillip in new york, another american first, the convicted former president who is now running to oversee the country. again just met with his probation officer in just moments i'll speak with abc news anchor and former clinton white house insider george steph monopolists will get some unique insights into what a second trump term may look like but first, a play-by-play of what donald trump said in las vegas let's set the scene for you. the heat spiral 200 degrees. six people were sent to the hospital two dozen others were treated at the scene call it the heat or donald trump feeling hot under the collar. but the content of this rally vero wildly into topic after topic. now, some that actually might matter to you the voter, and others that matter to donald trump. and maybe no one else. so here is an incomplete sampling of what you heard. if you happen to have stood in that rally and sweated through all of it starting with a joke about voters i don't want anybody going on me. we need every voter. i don't care about you. i just want your vote. i don't care these are the range that dumb guy is that dumb son of a he's a corrupt, very dumb person. he's a low iq individual, is just something missing and there always has been this guy just hit enter, it goes to the beach the time somebody thinks it looks good in a bathing said, i don't think so and he has that little chair that weighs about like seven ounces. it's been so children can lift it and very old people can lifted. and you know what he's not old he's incompetent. it's weak, it's in ineffective, it's both. >> what he signed they're totally destroying our black population. >> they're totally destroying are hispanic population. i pay all this money to teleprompter people and i'd say 20% of the time, they don't work. i don't pay contractors that do a job and that's a job that's a job you can't read all right what would happen if the boat sank from his weight and you're in the boat and you have this tremendously powerful battery. >> and the battery is now under the water. and there's a shark that's approximately ten yards over there by the way, a lot of shark attacks lately did notice that those j6 warriors, they were worries, but they were really more than anything else. they are victims of what happened. all they were doing is protesting a rigged election that's what they were doing. and then the police say go and go in, go in water, set-up. that was what a horrible, horrible thing. and you know, that blows two ways. if we win nevada we win the whole thing. i hope the military revolt set the voting booth and just says we're not going to take it. he should take a drug test because i'm willing to take 20 me now is george stuff annapolis, abc news anchor he is a veteran of the clinton white house, and he's also the author of a brand new book, the situation room, the inside story of presidents in crisis. george, it's great to have you on in this book it chronically on avy, it critical six decades of crisis management from the situation room a place that you know well from your time in the white house, one of the interesting things is also these interviews with officers who were in the situation room on january 6. this is at a time now when trump is actively running to be back in the white house, and fundamentally change how the government works, how the so-called deep state works. did you hear any concerns from these duty officers about what a second trump term would mean for the kind of continuity that the national security apparatus has relied on for all these years. >> absolutely i mean, duty officers and others who served in the trump administration worried that the institutions would crumble. >> i spoke with them. >> wait us situation duty officer named mike stigler, who is actually on-point on january 6, and he said people have to understand how close we came to losing the vice president at the time. >> and he was horrified by this also horrified by the fact that he and his fellow officers in the situation room that they had to start implementing the continuity of government procedures which were designed to make sure that the government survives a nuclear attack. they were put into place on that day because of the threat to our institutions on that day as one of course, president trump famously never called down the situation room even once all during january 6. and you know, you talk about it's not just how close we came to watching our institutions crumble that day the ongoing threat is real. i mean, look at what happened just saturday night in las vegas when the president, former president uk, called the january convicted felons from january 6, those who rioted on january 6 and tried to block the peaceful transfer our he called them warriors who are somehow set up by the police. he's called them hostages. he's called them patriots. he's promising to pardon them. he's not promising to divide by the results of the next election. so this, this pass thread is very real right now have you ever seen, i mean, in your research and your time in government anyone run for office, really running against the very government that they are supposed to be? >> overseeing absolutely unprecedented abbe absolutely unprecedented. >> we have never had a former president or a presidential candidate who refuses to accept the peaceful transfer of power, who refused to say but he will buy by the constitution who's been indicted. and impeached for trying to block the peaceful transfer of power that is something that is absolutely fundamental to our democracy is one of the things that's made our democracy work for over 200 years. the idea the simple fact that the former president continues to lie about the, about the last election that he did, whatever he could on that data block, the peaceful transfer of power is absolutely unprecedented in all of our history and you, on your show on this week, you've had some of these trump vp short listers on there some of the other hosts of this week have also had them on. >> i want to just play a little bit of what they've been saying on television of late i think there were problems in 2020. >> yes, i do. do i think it was a problem that big technology companies working with the intelligence services sensor, the presidential campaign of donald trump? yes governors, governor you, you have said the election should wasn't stolen and you're supporting someone who says it was well, i know that we've got certainly we've got irregularities do you get the sense that this is one of the requirements to be on that shortlist you don't get the sense it's out there is plain as day. >> i actually talked to senator jd vance who is reportedly on the shortlist. as well. and every indication he gave was that he would do the same thing that mike pence, that he would not do what mike pence did in 2000 i mean, it's certainly seems to have become a requirement for those who are running to accept president trump's lie. former president trump's lie about the last election to suggest that he did nothing wrong. now on january 6, to say that somehow that is not an important issue at this point. and to suggest that it was actually vice president pence who did the wrong thing in 2020 i mean, this is just again, this is astonishing. we've never really had a former prison isn't it run before? whose own vice president refuses to endorse him because of the actions he took on those days. >> yeah. yeah. i mean, that alone has says maybe it says it all as a journalist, when you have these potential vp, a candidates on the show, you've had them on, we've had them on the show here. they rarely, if ever for concede ground this seems to be also another litmus test for how to be in maga world. i mean, is this the new reality for this this maga era of politicians that they don't back down when they're confronted with fats perhaps it is, but i think that's, that poses a test for all of us in journalism as well. i've made it a point if they will not accept those facts, i don't go on to other issues. i'm not going to go to participate in some kind of a sham where you somehow equate the legitimacy of an election or the peaceful transfer of power with a debate over tax cuts or environmental regulation. if you can't pass that fundamental threshold of saying yes, the last election was not stolen two, i will abide by the results of the next election then i think that's all voters and viewers need to know. i don't think if you're willing to lie about something as big as that, why should anything else they want to talk about be given any credence it's such an important point. >> i mean, we've got a vice presidential debate coming up right here on cnn. i later this month as a journal phyllis does american what do you think is the most important question that needs to be answered from both candidates who won the last election yeah, very simple. yeah. and won the last election. >> let's just let's let's discuss and debate. and we'll see, i mean, luck, week. it's been asked by donald trump. he refuses to answer it correctly, but we'll see what he does when he's given that opportunity in front of 140 million people it says it's a little bit different than on a stage like that. >> yeah, i when it's an actual debate, but that's it's a real test. >> i do want to play a little bit of what the vice president kamala harris has been saying, actually, on this very point, i mean, she seems to really be taking this issue on head-on. >> donald. trump openly tried to overturn the last election and now he openly attacks the foundations of our justice system. >> cheaters don't like getting caught it's a different tone than we've seen from harb, but it also speaks to that question that you just raised if trump doesn't pass the truth test on that issue, is there room for the biden administration to even move on to some of the other stuff, maybe the bread and butter issues, maybe the economy do you think that they are? settling on this idea of a character test for donald trump on this issue. >> president president kennedy, i have to do it all, but i mean, i think that is the threshold question of this election. certainly the biden campaign is going to have to address voters concerns about the economy, voters concerns that inflation, those are important as well, but it it is fundamental, as i said, at the start part the very question of whether or not you accept election results, whether you accept the peaceful transfer of power, that is an absolutely fundamental issue that people should be confirmed runaway as they go to make their choice in november when it comes to the potential of a trump administration. >> i mean, what do you think his conduct on january 6 tells you about what he might do next? not just around the election, but just in general he's saying what he would do next. he says that every single day he says he would pardon what he calls the january 6 hostages. he's talked about retribution using his justice department as an as an arm of retribution. he's talked openly about dropping the prosecutions against themselves. that's an active obstruction of justice in and of itself. it's no secret when president trump says he wants to do something, we should take a minute as word george steph, novelist. >> thank you very much. again, george's book, the situation room is out right now next breaking news about trump's legal issues here. what happened inside of his meeting with eight probation officer ahead of his sentencing? thanks. plus one of trump's allies gets a new mug shot. will discuss with rudy giuliani is biographer and the former president says that he stands side-by-side with the group that wants to eradicate abortion. did he just give democrats another flash, flash point in this race? this is new sayyed get back i voted buttons. >> i netting dragging my every meal kit. >> why no donkeys or elephants scams? alice thing says, so it's like your generation has evolved past traditional political symbols. and there's room for everyone, kind of like my podcast on cnn. yeah, plus chins, puke rainbows, white, taken billy the kid, it's trying to take over the town what it needs is cleaning up. they've appointed a new sheriff pat garrett, mean something to you? >> sure. does know, use the really really nice your job to haunt them down a lot isn't takes you can win. >> this ain't a game for me it was had trouble losing weight and keeping same discover the power of week-old in the my janan the gobi. >> i lost 35 pounds as some lost the war, 46 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no other the now convicted former president did, as other helens, do he met with a probation officer prior to sentencing, but that's where the similarities stop. at the differences get real. >> trump got to have his lawyer, todd blanche in the room, a special accommodation not afforded then to the average defendant and it's one of the few notable examples of how the legal system really bent over backwards for trump, where it would not have for others, ten contempt violations normally merit more than just a fine. >> nobel restrictions for a defendant of his means. also, an anomaly carefully choreographed search of his home to spare them from having cameras capture agents of the lawn of the law wearing fbi jackets. that's a nicety really given to no one else joining me now are robert gray who was counseled to then president trump during is first impeachment. and dante mills, he's a civil and criminal attorney and a law professor at temple this leaves school of law, dante, this probation hearing lasted about 30 minutes. we're told what kind of information are they trying to get from trump. >> let's just walk through. everybody understands the purpose of this and why they do it most times, judges don't know the defendant these trials happen. normally their day or two. the judge doesn't get to know the person they're going to have to sentence. so what you do is you have an investigating officer come in, ask questions about the person's background, get an understanding of who they are, where they come from, who their family is, what kind to jobs they have. and then they present a report to the judge who says, based on this report it's going to influence my decision one way or the other, or it won't because it's pretty standard so it happens to everybody, but we do it to a former president of the united states. everybody knows who he is already. so it's not necessary. i don't think in this case, but you have to go through the process of why why have his lawyer present? >> i mean what's the concern there are the on trump's part. i don't know so about new york state practice, but i will say in federal practice is actually typical to have a lawyer present during the pre-sentence interview. in fact, it's almost always ordered by the judge upon request of the defense. >> them from saying anything that might hurt them. >> right. particular well, not so much that but particularly in a case that goes to trial where the defendant has an appeal. i think the concern always is to not talk about the quote, unquote, instant offense, meaning the offense of conviction because you might say something there that potentially could jeopardize. and i think everything else. and so that's why the lawyer often the lawyer is there to just simply she and i've done hundreds of these essentially two let me handle the discussions as your lawyer with the probation officer about the offensive fine line between wanting your client to be forthcoming and not be obstructive against the person trying to get information, but also not crossing the line is saying, but i did this or slipping up is saying something that can be used against them, being obstructive to the person trying to get information is definitely something i would be worried about with trump. i mean, just in general that judge merchan is going to weigh who is donald trump, which everybody knows to a certain degree, but also the lack of remorse here, frankly, in this case, i mean, ultimately, how does that all come together to influence the judge's decision and sentence? >> i think the judge knows what he's going to do, but he'll get this regard. i think he's already made up his mind, but he'll get this report and he'll see what's in this report and he may use that to justify something if he wants to put trump in jail, he'll say well, trump wasn't forthcoming. look at this report. he didn't even provide this information if he wants to give them probation, he'll say, well trump was he was cooperating with this investigator. so this is a sign that he's learned his lesson and we don't need to put them in jail. i think this will be used to bolster whatever sayyed the judge wants to lean on. >> you think the judge is already setup, set his mind to some decision here you know, i honestly don't. >> i think that obviously all judges have views about a case, particularly when they've sat through a trial about what they might do in the event of a conviction at sentencing. but i do think the judges take very seriously, both in guilty plea cases as well as cases that go to trial and result in a conviction in evaluating a third parties let's review which is the probation office of the defendant's personal characteristics and history and the investigation that they conduct. they're very good at it. i have found judges don't always agree. they don't have to agree with what they're probation office recommends, but i imagine the probation office will recommend whether or not in this e felony case a sentence of imprisonment is warranted or not. >> generally, i would say that in this particular case, i don't know if we're going to find any or learn anything new about the former president trump that we don't. and the judge doesn't know are ready, so i do want to move on just briefly to what's happening down in florida with judge aileen cannon i mean, she's got a lot of emotions to deal with. she dealt with one issue today hey well, one-and-a-half let's call it that one of them was whether or not to throw out some of the counts against donald trump sheet ruled against that, but she did say that this so-called talking indictment in which the prosecutors laid out this description of trump's handling of classified map and how he talked to somebody and his camp payne about it. she basically said that was unnecessary and she struck it from the indictment what do you make of that? >> it is something that judges, federal judges increasingly, i have seen as a defense lawyer have problems with i mean, they they don't try to trim the sales of the government too often about speaking indictments but they do expect that speaking indictments, if they speak speak to facts that the government expects with some degree of certainty will be offered into evidence and received into evidence at trial. and this was a situation where i think the sense was that was excised from the indictment was problematic. the judge hasn't ruled on it yet. it may or may not. this is other similar acts evidence but not conduct that's actually he wasn't part of the charge charge and that's shouldn't really be in the diet payment ordinarily unless you're pretty certain that the judge has made a ruling. >> but to trump's handling of classified documents, which is the gate does but i'll tell you why this was put in there. >> the prosecutors who bought this case knew they were bringing a case against the former president of the united states, and they will be scrutinized all right, people are going to go through with a fine tooth comb and i believe they want it to include things that would pass the smell test for anybody reading this indictment, they threw extra facts and air. so if you just read the indictment on its face, you said, oh, they have a case. oh, they have a reason for bringing this forward. so i do think they went overboard a little bit. i understand why they did it i also don't blame the judge for saying all right. just take this part, striking it does that have any impact on the case at all? >> the indictment is welcome to things. one is the jury will be specifically instructed at the beginning of the trial during trial and at the end of the trial that the indictment itself is just a charge and it's not evidence of anything. but it is fairly often the case paste that judges will allow the indictment into the jury room. not all judges will do that but in federal cases, some judges will. and so you don't want anything in the indictment that the jury really shouldn't be in a judge is going to take a look. important thing is the jury instructions. the judge is going to tell them what the law is, what they have to base their decision on. think that will be more important than the indictment itself but she was right for cleaning up that indictment and just not having facts that may or may not come in. >> that case is a slow moving train. but here we are. robert ray, dante mills. thank you. both for being here. and next, the man who was once known as america's mayor posing for his second mug shot in less than a year, who knew giuliani biographer joins me live plus y giuliani decided to call fani willis a hoe at eight christian event alder james is cold, calculating, cynical, and needs the money not only was the cia compromise he also was compromised secrets and spies, a nuclear game. >> sunday at ten on cnn my husband and i own a growing beverage company. >> we rely on e-commerce and digital tools it's a build our business and launch new products thanks to 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insurrection in washington and now you can add yet another mug shot to the list on the left. this one is from georgia last year, and on the right, that's the new one from today in arizona, where he pleaded not guilty to charges of conspiring to overturn arizona's election, joining us now is andrew kurtzman. he is the author of giuliani the rise and tragic fall of america's mayor. that is exactly the topic of conversation today because i mean to mug shots in a year, for any rational person that would be extraordinary for the man who used to be he thought at one point he could be president of the united states, america's mayor. i'm in quite the fall. >> will anyone who was around the 80s or 90s saw a giuliani even long before he was america's mayor. he was the most famous law man in america, right? he was a crusading prosecutor. the united they southern district and manhattan, the scourge of wall street wall street crux and mafia bosses and the, the trajectory of giuliani's career is just, it's pretty extraordinary. i mean, with trump and giuliani long ago, we've lost the ability to be shocked by then, but those mug shots of giuliani or a jaw dropping, if you know who he was, someone back then who had such a reverence for the law. he saw that court system as his church someone who has now been reduced to that. it's pretty tragic. >> and on top of that, i mean alaa man, that's a perfect example of the image that he portrayed himself. and yet in this arizona case, he was literally running from the law he literally tried to escape being served i mean, that's the rudy giuliani of today would be completely unrecognizable of the giuliani of 20 years ago are 30. >> there's, there's no question about it. i mean, his fall it's not that he's had a toe just a career collapse. he said a total moral collapse as well. he is just a shadow of him self and today or tonight, i was listening to his nightly webcast and there he was railing against joe biden and hunter biden engaging and character assassination there's a certain kind of almost fanaticism to him that's caused him to do as much as as much damage as he done and also to be a shameless about it. >> and it continues, i want to play for you what he said at a christian event about the georgia district attorney fani willis then i've got to prosecutors fani the whole i'm sorry i mean, what what what is there to even say anymore about comments like that, right? i mean, it's horrible. it's horrible, and it's it's not just, you know? portable character assassination, which is kind of bint as hallmark all the way back to his prosecutorial career but it also is a complete undermining of who he wants was as someone as i was saying, who had such reverence for the law that he you're talking about a person almost became a preece when he was a young man, he saw the court system as kind of that kind of similar moral kind of adjudication area where you declared right from wrong i mean, look look at them now. i mean, it's disgraceful as with so many people in trump's world, it's almost like he gives them a permission slip to just no holds barred, no inhibitions. they get to kind of go with their most base instincts. and i think that's what we're seeing with mr. giuliani. andrew kurtzman, you very much for joining us up next, donald trump tells conservative christians that democrats are against their religion. as he supports a group that wants to outlaw abortion and ivf. my political panel, we'll discuss that next the devastating, and sudden power of tsunamis. it happened in far away lands and it's easy to think it can't happen here if one hits home ready. >> silent birth with liev schreiber sunday at night on cnn, paying down debt can feel overwhelming upstart makes it fast and easy. >> borrowers can access the fund because they need in as little as one business day checking your rate is fast with no cost to you or your credit score. join over 1.8 million customers who have turned to upstart for 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ttac at the white house. >> and this is cnn religion and politics to dinner table conversations you are supposed to avoid. >> but the mixture of those two is one that donald trump is happy to use as a cudgel to attack democrats just listen to the presumptive republican nominee arguing why voters should choose him in november we can't afford to have anyone sit on the sidelines now is the time for us to all pull together and to stand up for our values and for our freedoms. >> and you just can't vote democrat. they're against religion there, against your religion in particular, you cannot vote for democrats and you have to get out and vote what makes the comments notable are where are they happened, which was in front of extreme anti-abortion group, the danbury institute wants to outlaw all abortion, even in case of rape and incest. >> they also claimed that abortion is never necessary to save the life of a mother. the group also so opposes ivf treatments to help women get pregnant. now remember, trump and says that he doesn't want to ban all abortions. and he says that he supports ivf. but today, he told those anti-abortion activists that he'll stand by there, sayyed side-by-side with them joining me now is republican strategist joe opinion, former communications director for vice president kamala harris, jamal simmons and former press advisor to speaker john boehner, more gillespie, joe. this is probably a strategy of no one is going to pay attention to what trump is doing, but we're paying attention. why would, why would he do that? >> look, i think we have to two issues here. do you have an issue with your organization? do you have an issue with the message? i think we'll start with the message. >> i mean, i think the issue is does donald trump believed that abortion should all be illegal? this group believes or does he believe what he says? he believed the president has been quite clear that he does not want you have a federal ban, i think has been very clear on the fact that he wants you have the issue remain with the states and so either we can take him at his word or you don't. >> it's quite clear that people want you tie him and tebor him to the organization. and all of their beliefs. it is quite clear that we are in the business of coalition building here in american politics. if you have an issue with the coalition, you can bring that up on the campaign trail, but it is interesting to me that we never asked democrats you disavow any of their supporters. we never asked democrats to affectively find the most extreme elements of their party and then answer questions about them. this only happens with people on the political right. and so i think that, that look, i think i don't think that's true. i think that's what comes up all the time. democrats are always asked, they are i say disavow, i didn't blanche. there's a difference between asking whether you agree with the issues and then saying, what do you have to disavow the group? i think again, the broader issue here is is the democratic party, a party that is hospitable to the beliefs of christians. i think there's plenty of polling that shows that there has been an erosion of faith in america. but there is a greater arose in the democratic party. and many of the policies that they're advocating for them up to democrats. this is a place where you guys are completely off base because the democratic party is fueled by african americans, particularly african american women who are the backbone of large christian churches all over america and so if we take a look at where the democratic party stands and the teachings at some i'm a child of a minister. and as the teachings of jesus feeding the hungry clothing, the naked, taking care of those who are, who are needed and dispossessed that is quite right in the middle of the home plate of the democratic party platform. so i think that make the argument is an argument that is being made on behalf of a various particular subset of christianity that in historical terms, has not been on the side of african-americans at all because that part of the christianity has been on the side in the old days, slavery segregation i mean, he remembers very different. we want to have an ala carte conversation about religion short democrats like you pick and choose when they want to go down to the black church, like kathy hochul and get their anointing and say that i am not here to be the mother of all 62 counties that she's going to be a were all her apostles. there is a real serious conversation. democratic party, where if barack obama goes to boston it says that we have some people worshiping god and the blue states and awesome gotten the blue states. but when eric adams goes and says that i believe that god's plan for my life has led me to becoming mayor. he gets mocked. he gets mocked by the media. he gets mapped over there when we have all of those arrays. also, i just i don't want to lose this in the conversation. it's important though it is donald trump describing, first of all, your religion, i thought that he described himself as christian, but then to say that it is against your religion, christianity to vote for democrats, that seems like crossing a line. >> but i also think, what just happened here too is you're saying you guys down trump is saying all democrats, your blanket statements. that's what's frustrating i think to there can people as these blanket statements assuming that all democrats think like that all republicans think like, and that's an accurate. and so donald trump did here is interesting because he's pandering to christian conservatives, but yet his lifestyle, we know violet plates most, if not all, the commandments that he, you know, that the christians abide by but that's all trump. that doesn't speak for all republicans, not all republicans believed to ban abortion. and not all republicans want to attack women. just like i don't think all democrats are pro palestine and not all pro-hamas. i don't blanket statement that because i think that's a frustration in politics. political perspective. i mean, you talked about the big tent. i i think that's that's one way of looking at it. but from a political perspective, donald trump trying to argue he understands abortions of political problem for republicans. he's trying to argue, he's not the extremist president. he's not going to have a national ban, but then to go before an organization that is even to the right of the right on this issue, it does that really undercut his message giving democrats an opportunity? >> it does get their request an opportunity, not just because he's talking to this group i mean, he he made i think he's being extreme, but all the extremists think that he's extreme enough for them, right? he is the president who took credit for pregnant three supreme court justice on the court, who got rid of row, who helped the end roe v wade protections for abortion. he wants credit from groups like this about getting rid of abortion in the country. and if he's going to take credit, that means he also has take the blame from 60 5% of the country who has decided that we are four abortion rights. they are for women having the freedom to exercise control over their own bodies. and if he's going to take the credit, he also has to take well, i would agree that there are individuals who will be offended by the choice of the venue. and so if democrats want to raise that as an issue that is fair game in politics, but that does not deal with the fact that again, we're not having this conversation to your point when we're talking about people on the brooklyn bridge yelling from the river to the sea. palestine will be free, which is a call for the eradication of us people. we don't have these same, i think would disagree with you i don't wanna i don't want to belabor that point, but definitely i don't i do not think that is an issue that the democratic party has to own, right? >> it's becomes those are those democrats that is not indicative of who we are as a party. i think it is disingenuous to sit here and pretend that we don't have a senate majority leader for this nation that has gone and undermined benjamin netanyahu. it is disingenuous to say that we don't have a president than on one day said you're going to support israel on the other, de said is going to get rid of funny, i click, i get this is a completely separate issue, but my point is that if we're going to have people own a particular faction of their base and which do what across the board. and we're here having this conversation about abortion because it is clearly an issue the democrats think they can run on. and the only issues they can run on its abortion on monday, abortion on tuesday, january 6, on wednesday, and nothing else. >> abortion on monday and abortion on tuesday worked pretty well for them particularly in 2022. so more, how do you see this? >> republicans are going to struggle as we have on this issue of women's rights. >> when we talk about abortion, we fail to talk about the resources that aren't available to women who are now in these states that are being told they can't do ivf, which i'm sorry if you want women to have more children, ivf is a wonderful opportunity to do that. >> so you're banning things like that. and you're not giving them the resources, then to have children to support women going to those appointments. having children is expensive. childcare is expensive. we don't do anything about that conversation. we stop and i think that two things can be true at once. you can believe in the sanctity of life, but you can also believe in medical freedom for half the population of the places in this country where it's the most difficult to have an abortion. it's also the most difficult to raise a child. it's a good point more, joe and jamal. thank you all very much for that conversation up next for us, the olympic rings, they're officially unveiled in paris, but not without some conscious firstly, of course, over who will be on the court for team usa. bob costas is here and he'll weigh in on caitlin clark, not making the cut. that's the most anticipated moment of this election and the stakes couldn't be higher, biden. democracy is on the ballot. your freedom is on the ballot. >> trump, there is none i think we cannot do. we will make america powerful again, the president and the former president. one state, two very different visions for america's future. the weight only cnn can bring it to you, moderated by jake tapper and dana bash, the cnn presidential debate thursday, june 27th, live on cnn and streaming on max looks like allergy season it back time to start saving on your prescriptions. another good reason to check, good rx this is a premium hand selected bacon rapidly mignon, that's aged for tenderness and trimmed to perfection this is a neck tie. >> what do you think dad wants for father's day visit omaha steak.com slash tv 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laura coates, live next on cnn closed captioning is brought to you by you, ucar, help maintain a healthy urinary tract with you, cora, i can having utis for ten years. >> you cora. >> we make uti relief products. we also make proactive urinary tract help products. you core is a lifestyle tried today at you put.com the wnba is celebrating the most popular opening months in its history. >> the league is reporting that on average, a whopping 1.3 million people have been watching their games on national broadcast. that is a 286% increase over last year game attendance merchandise sales social media engagement. they've all been off the charts now, it's unclear exactly how much credit indiana fever star caitlin clark deserves for this jump, but it is safe to say that she has had a significant role in the success of the league. now, that being said all of these numbers come as the team usa announced its roster for next month's olympics, olympic games in paris. now let's just take a look at the team. you'll see that someone is notably missing yes. caitlin clark was omitted from the list and social media didn't take kindly to that. so should she be on the squad joining me now to unpack all of this is cnn contributor bob costas christine brennan, our friend on the show here and usa today and broke or so unless she broke this big story she won't be on the team. is it a snub or is this just the way ago? well, there are no rookies on the team. >> they're all veterans. if you wanted to make a case, you could say diana taurasi, who is an all-time wnba great. been in the league since 2004 for two decades, 41-years-old has five olympic gold medals already you could say you could put caitlin clark on in place of how you could make that case, but caitlin clark, other people would make that caitlin clark herself says, i get this 100%. >> i'm young, i can work toward the next olympics and an olympics after that caitlin clark has faced some resentment for a variety of reasons. >> people, according to whatever narrative they want, want to attribute everything to one thing, whatever it is. but as we discussed last week with carrie champion, it's a combination of things, but say anything you want about caitlin clark. she in addition, they should understand this high tide of caitlin clark is raising all boats as you just pointed out, in addition to that, she has done everything the right way. she said i don't know what an apology from kennedy carter is just the way the game is. and then she praised carter's play. she says the game is rough. i've got to adapt to that. she signs every but a graph. she doesn't whine and complain. she didn't complain about being left off the olympic team. some of this, and it's just not just a white, white thing, but maybe she is in terms of attention now that but many white stars in the league over the last quarter century, maybe there's some similarity between her and larry bird when larry bird came into the nba, there was some skepticism all he was fine in college is a white guy, can't be that good. it turned out he was one of the all-time greatest players, one of the ten greatest players conservatively in the whole history of the league when dennis rodman, who's always been a little crazy, said, if larry bird was a black guy, just be an average player, everyone was up in arms, right? here's what larry said. i don't care. let's just play he defused the whole thing. he warned everybody over by just being about basketball and caitlin clark, i think has been not just a really good and exciting player. she's been a classy person to this point and good for her. yeah. actually, let's play what caitlin said about being left off the team honestly, notice appointment like i think it just gives you something something to work for. you know, that's a dream, you know, hopefully one day i can be there and think it's just a little more motivation you remember that and, you know, hopefully in four years when four years comes back around, i can be there and honestly likely she will. >> i mean, just so people understand bob me what you were just talking about. this is what the olympic team looks like in terms of their accolades. i mean, you've got wnba champions, you've got all stars because you've got olympic gold medalists, you've got people who have basically been at the highest levels playing at slav a for a long time already. seems that she understands that she understands that. >> and what coaches and players around the wnba have to understand. i think most of them likely do yeah, i understand the resentment they'd been there a long time. there are many good players. she's getting a disproportionate amount of the attention, but none of that is her fault. some of the resentment toward her has a racial element in it. we'd be naive to deny that, but some people want to make that the entire narrative as we discussed last week with carrie champion, some of this is is carrier said as stacy dales of espn, who played in league happens to be white, she has said, hey, we've been around a long time notice, not just our excellence, but it's a physical game. now, we have to make distinctions. what kennedy carter did against caitlin clark is outside the bounds. it should have been a flagrant foul i'll they upgraded it to that last week. i made the point that when alyssa thomas through angel reese to the floor, that was involved two black players had it been caitlin clark and alyssa thomas and thrown her to the floor? everyone would have made that a racial incident and only a racial incident i did a bad job, however, on context because that was immediately called a flagrant two. and alyssa thomas was ejected, plus it was on a small cable outlet and not viewed as widely as kate, right like kennedy carter, caitlin clark thing was out of bounds and it's pretty clear that for whatever reasons kennedy carter harbored some resentment toward caitlin clark, whatever the cause. >> i mean, one of the things is that all these kind of new fans right to the gay are coming in and everybody wants to be a sports analyst of the wnba and they've just now started watching and they're not even watching all the games, apparently. right. and when people say in a simple-minded way, oh, she's a white star. there have been many, many white stars over the years past and present. there's breanna stewart now, there was rebecca lobo sue bird, sabrina ionesco, who almost batch steph curry in a three-point shooting contest this past february at the starting name, what is it about caitlin clark? it's not just that she's white. steph curry stood out from other great black stars in the nba because he played in a way that was appealing and relatable. shooting from the logo, dr. jay was more appealing and brought in more fans and his teammate moses malone, who was a three-time mvp because dr. jay's game was more flamboyant. michael jordan wasn't just great. he was fun to watch caitlin clark is fun to watch. >> yeah. and she is going to be a star pretty much no matter what do you think she'll ultimately be an alternate for the olympic team? >> i think he could be. i think that's possible. and the concern that because she'd be reserve and she wouldn't play that many minutes and therefore, her fans would be up in arms just put the point out there, educate them it would help the
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