Defiant indian Prime Minister defends his controversial citizenship the deaths of angry protests to sweeping the country the book id like modi change his mind how far is the undermine secularism in india this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program on stan grant a secular state where all religions are welcome and equal before the law now that idea is that the core of indias constitution but many believe its under threat hindu nationalism has been emboldened by Prime MinisterNarendra Modi since he was elected in 2014 his government has taken measures that have raised fears among muslims in particular a new citizenship law officers Illegal Migrants of religious minorities from 3 neighboring countries the right to become citizens of india but it excludes muslims and that sparked anger and protest nationwide Laura Burton Manning reports. Its the greatest challenge indias Prime MinisterNarendra Modi has faced since he came to power 5 years ago. Dozens of people have been killed in violence fueled by anger against the citizenship know which opponents say it discriminates against muslims. Addressing thousands of the supporters and the election rally in new delhi blame the opposition for stoking the protests little by little is would be problems since the slow has been passed some Political Parties have been spreading rumors they say misleading the public they are inciting the public. You know. I want to ask those who are peltons dines and still getting people to enjoy police trying to do the us what are you hoping to achieve the police is no ones enemy. The citizenship Amendment Act makes it easier for migrants from afghanistan bangladesh and pakistan who arent muslims to gain citizenship critics say the law could lead to many muslims losing their citizenship. Broader score im not a hog im not a rider staging protests is a right they should not be violent so i oppose that whatever the police are doing i request them not to do it they should also listen we are also indians like you we are also humans. As protests continue in the capital and other parts of the country the government insists the rule will not be repealed i protest have been ongoing since parliament passed the law earlier in december was but a student protest in jamey a 1000000 islamiya university in the capital a week ago turned into a movement of hundreds of thousands of students and antigovernment protesters nationwide. People were angered after Government Forces fought with students and stormed the campus firing tear gas into the library and posture. The worst violence has been in Uttar Pradesh for more than 5000 people have been detained. At least 1500 people have been arrested in other parts of the year. So muslims can get citizenship under the citizenship Amendment Act but its feared millions who are unable to provide proof could be rendered stateless even if their families have lived in india for generations who are about a manly aljazeera. Here are some of the measures taken by modi that have worried the 200000000 muslims who live in india now they form the 2nd largest Muslim Population in the world after indonesia in august the Indian Government revoked the special status of indian administered kashmir that divided the state into 2 territories to be directly ruled from new delhi one consisting of john moon kashmir and the other of the duck and in the Northeastern State of a son nearly 2000000 people including muslims have been excluded from the list of citizens raising fears they could be rendered stateless Indias Supreme Court has awarded control of a disputed religious site in the town of a larger for the construction of a temple many hindus believe the size of a former mosque was the birthplace of the warrior god run and now there are protests over the new citizenship law. Well lets bring in our guest now distraught on nigam is a member of the legal wing of the Hindu Nationalist Organization russ tria Swayamsevak Sangh he joins us by skype from new delhi taryn huyton is a professor in public law and legal theory and hackney fellow in law what im College Oxford university he joins us from london and it is a researcher at the center for research on extremism at the university of oslo she joins us by skype from horning and in the Netherlands Welcome to each of you and tara and this is such a fascinating story that were seeing playing out at the moment when you look at the nature of the protests who is turning out the nonsectarian nature of the protests whats it telling us about india right now. I think the most important thing to notice about the protest is the model of a cab really that its using windows that of the Indian Constitution of indias journalistic secular tradition and i would not have imagined as a constitutional lawyer that i would ever see tens of thousands of people reciting in a public collectively indias constitution and i mean when we go to that what theyre saying fundamentally use we are a secure nation we do not want to be divided up for along sectarian terms so why why are we hearing this and seeing this i think this is a this is a fight for the soul of the country what is what is the kind of country india is going to be this is not just a protest by muslim citizens of india this is a protest by and citizens from or different religions and fates costs. Races. And and this is a fight about what this country is going to become we have had 70 years of a secular privileged diverse nation the question is will we remain so over the become a majority tarion exclusive. And the nation that is the question before the people look at the question then to disregard nigam is that what is at stake here is this citizenship Amendment Law a direct attack on the sick you are fundamentally constitutional secular nation nature of india no im. Not not at all in fact if one reads the citizenship Amendment Act it is not about a trick being anybodys Citizenship Group in the country it is only about giving citizenship to go to you just you persecuted minorities of course i understand and pakistan and bangladesh but sir if i can you know if you know of any there fundamentally what hes saying is that muslims are not included on that list how is that then not an attack on muslims and an attack on the secure nature of the country. The indian and Indian Muslims are not affected by it indian citizens. By threatening and people seeking citizenship are not included muslims are not included hindus really live firing into what we did to christians are included but what people are protesting is the muslims are not include muslims let us understand the object of this act it has a very narrow objective of giving it to the religious persecuted minorities of these 3 countries whose a state religion is islam so when muslims are being you know. Mistreated in those countries this is not a religious persecution by one region. Or sect or a problem within islam those are governance issues of those countries which india is not required to address and also there is a Historical Context to it because at the time of independence when the partition took place hindus and the other minorities wanted to come to india they were struck by you know giving in acting a law essential services law in pakistan because they wanted them to clean roads and other things because they belonged to shoot us and at that point of time they were prevented to come to india and gandhi very clearly said they should be allowed to come to india so it isnt that contention also in the context of narrowly that agreement which happened in 150. 00 where they promised each other that they will take care of the minorities kept its words that india kept its word and the monarchies grew from a person to 18 percent today where a 62033. 00 person d minorities in pakistan has been reduced to 3 percent so it is only a narrow objective it does not attract Indian Muslims it does not affect indian citizens well thats thats not how protesters saying it i want to go to every honest man but law giver a right of reply to that tyrant now when he hears this that it is not affecting the citizenship of muslims inside the country that effectively youre talking about muslim majority countries to be able to take care of their own does the citizenship law then have a different context how do you read that. Doing a different issue of you one is the constitutionality of the citizenship Amendment Act itself and the 2nd is its going to action with its impact in connection with the national. Population by just a tick size not just the bill itself is it is coached in the language of refugee protection but. It excludes a whole swathe of refugees and with these in pakistan well not benefit from the slow but also there is no rhyme or reason why. Is not on the list man matters not on the list part is not on the list and put on is not on the list the only reason is that the minority protection logic applied to these non muslim majority countries would require the government to include muslims so this is a fairly blatant attempt to to use religion to divide and instead also you know article 14 of the Indian Constitution it got and these the right to equality not just to those who are citizens of india it got and ps the right to equality before an in laws to all persons including those who are not yet citizens so it is a breach of the law itself is a breach of the Indian Constitution but it signals more importantly its expressive symbolic impact is that muslims are less than citizens let me go to it so its impact combined with that population that is so we can talk about. Going out and going to come back to that were going to come back to that but i do want to bring in now and just widen the context of a bit here because what the Prime Minister the most he has been accused of in the past is playing the hindu nationalist card if you like the philosophy of hindutva and it has been very successful for him he won an election just a few months ago resoundingly so what does this say about the pull of hindu nationalism inside india well it certainly shares particularly with movies the election and how mainstream the idea is that internationalism become the thing governance in india and its important for us to remember that what has just been shit in the last is reflected a foreign nationalism across the world and in particular our anti muslim or their ink or empty. Immigrants are and how racial and ethnic minority i mean has become so prominent magistrate its true foreign but this populism this nationalism the era of the strongman if you like and we are talking about men we hear this from c. Jinping and the attack on the weak as we hear it from Vladimir PutinViktor Orban Donald trump has played this cat it was part of the of the brics it discussion in the brics that vote as will why is it so successful it has been successful for modi it has been successful ilse way of what does it tell us about age yes its very excellent question what is something that unites all of these far right nationalist movements from india to the u. S. The u. K. Preserve the philippines turkey accent or is the idea that there is a cultural identity under threat of the majority and by scapegoating those in the minority that is something that is a primary message that pulls together all these foreign national. Dish people have long memories and we know that there are still those who look to what happened in gujarat when when Prime Minister modi was the chief minister there and a 1000 muslims were killed in riots he at the time become an International Pariah he was accused of not doing anything to stop that the United States banned him from visiting we had the recent ruling on the religious sides that there is a feeling in india that promised a modi is has played this nationalist he knew nationalism cod and that the citizenship amendment fits directly into that what do you side of that dish. That is new very clear the all the schemes that the Prime Minister has launched in his 6 years as a Prime Ministership. Have not discriminated between hindus and muslims both in those and muslims have benefited out of it and other minorities as well so that in fact in their areas are more muslims have been affected than the hindus and therefore that does not you know for that kind of allegation that has been made secondly so far as the. Interest is concerned that the brought under control the riots within 2 days massive rice are taking place and out of which 3 to speak induce also died because of this fighting nobody seems to be aware of that now somebody raised the issue of tamil and during the summer it was a movement about independent state independent country and that they have sort of yes we have given to tamil hundreds of thousands. So far as concerned that was also a fight about independent state of rakhine in burma and these are bengali muslims and their 1st you know contact is with bangladesh and that is where they 1st refuge and that the un law if they move forward then it is considered an Onward Movement not on the basis of religion just cannot be given on the basis of religion so any movement beyond bangladesh should be considered for any other reason not for religious persecution gather especially just ask you for letting us know yes isnt it better to just quickly tell anybody let alone to do more no there are 2 more important issues out here Somebody Just talk about article 14 you know this be a abolishing article 14 there is a concept called reasonable classification inherent in our constitution under which the special and high rights have been given to muslims and other minorities it is on the basis of same concept this has come if you like that this principle then you attack the special privileges given to minorities. The reservation given to certain sections so this is not right if there were particle beam there is a concept of reasonable classification inherent in a causative agent apparently by the Supreme Court of india it is on that basis this law has gone and we have done our work before before the law has been brought in the parliament this law has been logically passed by the parliament with majority this is how the laws are made in india there is a fear mongering lot of fear mongering going on among the people that has to be stopped people on the streets dont even know what this law is all d about so one has to stop the other mongering lot of Quality Built parties are. Going to put that into tyrant is there an element of fear mongering here as day says this was a law that was passed by the pollen we saw in orinda modi speaking to a large crowd as as well today so there is still strong support for someone who as ive said before was just reelected a matter of months ago. Look i think this argument of people who dont know what theyre protesting at about is astonishingly patronize ing to the people of india. Basically the point of course article 14 permits resemblant classification and the point is whether the classification is reasonable for a classification to be reasonable if your intention is to protect religious lead persecuted minorities protect one of them if your intention is to. Distinguish between different religions that classification longstanding jurisprudence of the Supreme Court principles the contributions that you cannot make a classification based on religion that is simply not it is an investigation right so the and the inclusion of rowing as our families after the most the over inclusion of other religious groups we dont even need to prove persecution under this law and so what youre creating is the 2 track system where some people based soley on their religion and nationality get citizenship without having to prove anything and some others have to go through an extremely onerous such a system of procedurally providing evidence of persecution in their countries to maybe get citizenship right that classification because its based on religion and not if its to government are you absolutely needs a refugee law in generous fair and just refugee but it has to apply to everyone who is persecuted not based on some religions who are and some are not and that will not count as very reasonable under any. Standing jurisprudence of the Supreme Court or maybe im just wondering here given what weve seen given the response of the government the crackdown of the government the ban on protests now whether this protest in your view came as a surprise to noor in ramadi that he wasnt expecting this given the success of the new nationalism hindutva if you like previously. Well we can certainly see that basis incidents toward somebody end of the government has been building for a while just by the fact that marie was being elected earlier this year and its also the more Prominent International spotlight in terms of what this government and the previous governments have implemented in terms of achieving their International Stage and that is not something that has gained more International Media and political attention to me after the Company Issues with kashmir summer and and how has become part of the international spotlight there is a