About a partisan impeachment in which politics of the majority who have their strength can do what they want to do it regardless of any facts. We are told donald trump is busy at his desk, but he is of course tweeting. Tweeting in caps. This is the scene live in the house of representatives, the debate is ongoing, we will be dipping into it throughout the programme. Hello and welcome, im katty kay in washington and Christian Fraser is in london. It is impeachment day in america. Donald trump, judging by the long seething letter he sent to nancy pelosi, is well aware that his place in history is about to change forever. And not in a good way. From now on his bio will read, donald trump, the 3rd american president to be impeached. Top democrats say they are approaching this day in a somber mood. And well they might. Its not clear that impeaching the president will do them any political favours. But the charges are serious, putting personal gain above Americas National security interests and democrats say they feel they have no choice. The debate itself began in the house of representatives two hours ago lets take a listen in to whats happening now. There is no higher crime than for the president to use the power of his office at corrupt our elections and now there is one minute from the gentleman from wisconsin. Thank you. Thisjuly, president gentleman from wisconsin. Thank you. This july, President Trump gentleman from wisconsin. Thank you. Thisjuly, President Trump blocked 400 million aid that ukraine desperately needed to defend itself against russia because he needed ukraine to do him a favour first. He asked the president to launch a public investigation into a political rival, military aid and other benefits would only come after. But this is not about a single pole or transcript, it is about a perfect storm, months of activity directly ordered by the president to a senior cabinet demanding a foreign power interfere in our democracy. He betrayed his oath of office. He abused the power of office for personal and political gain. He has refused to cooperate with a coequal branch of government was that this is a vote for constitution, setting the precedent for all future president s. Donald trump must be held accountable for his actions. Today we send a clear signal to this president and all future president s, no one is above the law. That is what is going on at the law. That is what is going on at the moment. They spent a few hours this morning debating what would gavin this evening but now we are on to the debate for the impeachment itself. Govan this evening. December the 18th 2019, the date that will go down in american history. A day that started at least with solemnity. Give them wisdom and discernment. But very quickly moved from the sacred to the profane as the bitter partisan dogfight took over. Ifa if a president is undermining our National Security and using the government for its own personal gain is not impeachment i dont know what is. Today we have a president who seems to believe he is a king or above the law. And then the counterblast from the republicans. It isa it is a sham impeachment. Hard working americans want us to just move forwards. There is no proof, none, that the president has committed an impeachable offence. And from the democratic speaker, a tone of sorrow rather than anger. I solemnly and sadly open the debate on the impeachment of the president of the United States. If we do not act now, we would be derelict in our duty. It is tragic that the president s reckless actions make impeachment necessary. He gave us no choice. The last president to be impeached was bill clinton in 1998 over lying about his relationship with the white house intern Monica Lewinsky and before that you have to go back another 130 years to president andrewjohnson. By the end of today, donald trump will, in all likelihood, have joined the club that no one wants to be a member of. The president has spent the morning in the residence where his twitter thumbs have been busy. Can you believe that i will be impeached today by the radical left do nothing democrats and i did nothing wrong. A terrible thing. Read the transcripts. This should never happen to another president again. Say a prayer. But for the first part of the impeachment process, it wont be about prayer. It will be about votes and donald trump doesnt have them. Lets bring in the bbcs nada tawfik whos on capitol hill. If you turn on one news channel in the United States you get one set of fa cts , the United States you get one set of facts, turn on another and you get a different set of facts and that is how it has looked today, opposed interpretations of what actually went on. Absolutely. It went back and forth from republicans to democrats and honestly for americans watching it was a bit of whiplash, a portrayal of the alternate reality is that americans are living in, the divisions. On one hand you had democrats waving the constitution, saying that it was their duty to uphold their oath under the constitution and that the president had invited interference and it wasnt just about his had invited interference and it wasntjust about his past conduct but about an attempt by donald trump that would continue into the next election. On the other hand you had a representative from louisiana having a map of the last election, the electoral map, saying that this was again in the republic and a view about democrats trying to undo the results of that election. Certainly, both sides are looking ahead, not just of the senate trial but the election, framing impeachment in ways that can help them and i actually caught up with one representative of illinois and i asked him if democrats were concerned about this backfiring. I dont know whats going to happen in the senate but today we are trying to put the constitution above party and politics. That is certainly the case for me. I think every Single Member is going to be voting their conscience and indeed, neither i nor my colleagues have been whipped in any way to vote one way or the other so this is indeed a time when i have to fulfil my oath to defend and protect the constitution of the United States. And that really is the message that there from democrats that besides there from democrats that besides the politics and all of this we all know the outcome there isnt much suspense know the outcome there isnt much suspense but this is their duty, the duty of americans to hold President Trump accountable. We thought nancy pelosi dressed in black wearing a brooch with the symbol of the house of Representatives Authority trying to show again that this is a solemn momentous day for america. We mentioned facts but in a sense they dont even really agree on those, do they because democrats are saying that we have all of the facts here, it is here in this phone call, it is evident to us that donald trump wa nted evident to us that donald trump wanted to something from ukraine, he wa nted wanted to something from ukraine, he wanted this investigation into the guidance. Republicans say you are just inferring that. There is no actual evidence to say that he did that. We are not inside his head, it wasnt written down, no one actually ever said this was pro quo, is there any chance that in this debate anyone changes their mind . Yes, that is exactly right and what we have heard from this debate is that both sides are sticking exactly to their messaging. I think what is really interesting is that democrats have hit back at the republican argument that the president hasnt been given a process, there is only hearsay, democrats saying this is why the second article of impeachment is on obstruction of congress because the president has not allowed a key white house official to testify, he hasnt released several documents and democrats do think they have ample evidence from that phone call, the transcript with president zele ns ky the transcript with president zelensky where he said do as a favour when it came to investigating the bidens. Someone said that eve ryo ne the bidens. Someone said that everyone was aware of what was happening but democrats want to hear from the likes of Mick Mulvaney, the acting white house chief of staff along with thejohn bolton but what is really interesting is that republicans are again hitting back saying why didnt democrats go to the courts to get this testimony, or they were doing is rushing this entire impeachment process to get it out of the way before election. Back and forth incrimination is on both sides and no one really willing to compromise here at all. Earlier today christian had the chance to speak to the chairman and asked him what he thought the rest of the world were saying. He said we need to remind other countries that america does stand for the rule of law, that we are not a corrupt country, we cant go around saying you have to have transparency and not behaving that way. That is why he said as an intelligent person it was particularly important to have this. One of our viewers hasjust tweeted, why are we doing this trump impeachment, it will have no bearing on his popularity in the us and my response would be that it might and we dont know which way it will go and that is why it is so significant, isnt it . I think it isnt just about the election but there is a constitution in the us that democrats believe lead to this position. I spoken to many, even who we re position. I spoken to many, even who were reluctant to get on this path, so we had no choice. Miller said this morning said we had no choice but to do this. We didnt necessarily want to. Melissa said. This leads to investigating the president. I think it is not just about the polls and the election next year. We are going to go back to capitol hill and listening to those proceedings. So, lets remind ourselves of why were at this point today. Remember this is not about the mueller inquiry, that investigation into whether the Trump Campaign colluded with russia. This is about a separate issue, whether donald trump asked ukraine to dig up dirt onjoe biden in return for us military assistance. Late 2018, the us congress proves 250 million in aid to ukraine. July 18, 2019, officials in the state department in the pentagon learnt that the aid has been withheld. July 25, 2019, mr that the aid has been withheld. July 25,2019, mrtrump that the aid has been withheld. July 25, 2019, mr trump pressures the ukrainian president on a phone call. He asks president zelensky to investigate his political rivaljoe biden and his son hunter. Auger to the 12th, the whistle blower filed his complaint and someone in the white house with knowledge of the court filed a complaint which eventually ends up in congress. August the 28th. The public learns about the withheld aid, politico posts a story about the Trump Administration, blocking aid to ukraine. It is the first time it is reported publicly. September the 18th, the public learns more about the whistle blower. The Washington Post and the New York Times report that the whistle blowers complaint involves mr trumps call with the ukrainian president. Now that things move fast. September the 20th, the public learns about mr trump asking mr zelensky to investigate biden. A story in the wall streetjournal outlines the details of the call between them. September the 24th, nancy pelosi orders and impeachment enquiry. Mid november, Congress Holds hearings with Key Administration officials. Today, Congress Votes to impeach the president. Joining us now is former advisor to george w bush, ron christie and president of the constituional accountability center, elizabeth wydra. Iimagine you i imagine you are quite glad to be out of washington and out of politics at the moment. It is only the third time that an american president faces impeachment. What are you thinking today . Good afternoon to you. What im thinking as this is a very sad day in america. I was on capitol hill 21 yea rs america. I was on capitol hill 21 years ago when we had the last impeachment and it was a lot more civil in the tone as well as the discourse. Here, this is a tale of two cities, you have republican saying that the president has done nothing wrong and the democrats saying they are upholding the constitution and that no person is above the law. My specific thoughts, i think the record hurts very weak. I think the record hurts very weak. I think there is no specific evidence pro quo and for having an obstruction of congress, article of impeachment is laughable given that congress didnt exercise all their constitutional duties to compel and receive evidence so to end as it started, i think it is a sad day for us started, i think it is a sad day for us in america. A sad day in america or something thatjust had to happen . I think it is both. Certainly a sombre day, the constitution puts impeachment in as the ultimate remedy when an elected official up to and including the president has abused his office. I think that the democrats in the house also had no choice. I think that the record here with this particular incident that led to these two articles of impeachment is such an abuse of President Trumps office in such a violation of constitutional principles, fair and free democracy, the idea that no one is above the law and the idea that when the president acts in the world stage, he acts in the best interests of the American People and National Security and not for his own personal benefit, whether it be political in this particular case of financial as we have seen in other cases and whilst there are only two articles of impeachment i think there are stand ins for the vast corruption we have seen from this administration and they get to really crucial points that i think are going to be upheld in this Impeachment Vote which is that we need to be able to have confidence in our democracy, that it is not being corrupted by foreign influence and we need to have confidence in the checks and balances written into our constitution and the idea that the law applies to everyone, including the president. The law applies to everyone, including the president m the law applies to everyone, including the president. If you are removing someone including the president. If you are removing someone who has been elected to the highest office in the land, the bar is set extremely high. Did these articles impeachment satisfy that test when you hadnt heard from the people who are closest to the president . heard from the people who are closest to the president . I think that the facts are particularly out to be honest and we have heard from the president s own mouth. This wasnt a transcript precisely, it wasnt a transcript precisely, it was a readout of the call and i think it is important to remember that but even the readout that we got from the president was terribly damning. The idea that he needs a favour from the Ukrainian Government to investigate his political rival before releasing congressionally allocated military aid for ukraine and pushing back against russian aggression, that is a really big deal. It is an impeachable offence on the level that gets to the core of what the founders were concerned about when they put impeachment in the constitution and i would just add on that point that he was a duly elected president , the founders put impeachment as a remedy into the constitution knowing that someone might get into the office and then corruptly tried to hold onto that office and that is why the ballot box might not be a sufficient check. If you set this in a congressional district, the chief of police had said the local mayor we need some more cops and the mayor said i hate you but i need a favour. I need you to check out a few things on the rival before i give you that money, eve ryo ne rival before i give you that money, everyone would recognise that as wrong wouldnt they . Know they wouldnt. The that doesnt match up to where we are with the president. In his constitutional capacity had until september the 30th to release the aid to ukraine. The reason it had been upheld was that ukraine had been one of the most corrupt countries in europe if not in the world and i think the president was well within his right after congress authorised and gave him the ability to disperse those funds to check to see whether or not corruption was an issue. I was taught by one of the best constitutional lawyers in the world, a liberal democrat, who has the same impression that i do which is that this has been brought on the flimsy siesta of bases and ukraine actually got the money. The president of ukraine didnt realise that it had been upheld so the notion that the presence of the United States has put arm at National Security at risk by giving 391 million to country is not worthy of the bar that was set in 65 in defining a high crime bribery. We have plenty more to get into and i know you will stay with us but thank you very much. Can ijust say one thing there, it is a little bit different from the police a cop analogy to because the president didnt say do me a favour but doom us didnt say do me a favour but doom usa didnt say do me a favour but doom us a favour and the republican defence and the white house defence but that acid means the United States and not me personally so to some extent it is an interpretation of what the president says set against a backdrop of do you believe he is acting in bad faith or in good faith when it comes to the nations security and that is ironic because president clinton said at one point during his impeachment it depends on the meaning of the word is and now we are debating the meaning of the word us. Perhaps president s have a problem with two letter words. Thank you for that. In the past hour the president has reached for the Caps Lock Key on his keyboard, tweeting his displeasure at proceedings. Lets check in with our correspondent at the white house, laura trevelyan. The word was that the long seething letter that he wrote to the House Speaker nancy pelosi last night, much of it incorporating some of the tweets we have had over recent days that it was mostly him and that a lot of the people there who might have seen it were kept out of the picture. The president in that letter actually said that those accused of witchcraft at salem in the 90s were a recorded more than him. The 90s were a recorded more than him. Accorded more. He is getting ready to go to the swing state of michigan ina ready to go to the swing state of michigan in a couple of hours time where his Campaign Team are relishing the idea that there could be split screens of the president on stage at one of his signature rallies just as the house of representatives votes to impeach him and this is something that they are looking forward to because as far as they are concerned this is political gold for the president. Theyre been fun writing of it, it enables him to fight and counterpunch micro fundraising off it. He has told his Close Friends that he doesnt want impeachment of his resume but if it happens he will make the best of it. He is going to battle creek michigan which says the name of where we are in this process. We get some sense of where the president is. They know that maybe there is some political gain to me made and they can see that fundraising is going up for republicans and they hope that this can take independent voters in their favour but for the president himself ona favour but for the president himself on a personal level, if you look at the tone of the tweets from the last few days and the letter he sent last night where he is so vitriolic about nancy pelosi, you cant help but think that this is affecting him personally. It had to be a tough day for him. He is all about being one for him. He is all about being one for the history books but that does not include having the stain of impeachment on his legacy and whether it is here or elsewhere that this is something that will be defining for him and of course he loves a fight on the one hand and this is an opportunity to fight but he doesnt like what it means in practice was that there was this key question of what it means for him politically. Michigan is a state that he won by less than 11,000 votes. If you look at the polling on impeachment, just in recent days it has shifted a little bit in his favour so if he cannot grind this one out and accuse democrats of trying to relate to gate the election and not engage on the basis of what he did then he is trying to get some Political Capital out of this if he can. We are going to talk about how this compares with impeachment 21 years ago but the obvious different between donald trump and bill clinton is that donald trump is in his first term and running for election so we have already talked about how this might affect the polls but the republicans are certainly using this even to fund raise . For sure. I was here 21 yea rs fund raise . For sure. I was here 21 years ago when clinton was impeached andi years ago when clinton was impeached and i can tell you that it was very different because president clinton came out and apologised for what he had done in lying about his sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky so the way that he played it was such a contrast to President Trump who has never apologised. Republicans have started off defending him by saying what he did it was wrong but not impeachable but he didnt like that so now what he did was perfect. It isa so now what he did was perfect. It is a contrast in styles, presidency, different areas but republicans are just hoping that they can get this case, it is all about democrats being better. Democrats meanwhile draping themselves in the constitution and in the flag and nancy pelosi told them not to lose it and to stay on message and say that this is their solemn duty which is driving the president made which is driving the president made which is why he has been tweeting nancy pelosi recently. It will be fun watching that rally in michigan tonight, that will be interesting to watch. Lets return to capitol hill and listen in. I would remind the president that obama provided information. Unlike now. I now yield one minute to the lady. Today is a solemn day in america. A date that none of us hoped for when we came to congress but the events of today are something that each of us swore we we re something that each of us swore we were prepared to execute in defence of the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. This is the oath that binds the men and women of the hundred and 16th congress as our democracy implores, we defend her. A clear and present threat to american democracy is what brings us here. A president who asked a foreign nation interferes in our election. This is our Founding Fathers greatest fear. People in my district entrusted me to uphold our constitution for them. Yes, for cathy, catherine, jimmy. The path forward is clear. Impeachment is not an option, it is an obligation because no one is above the law. That we have democrats and republicans flip flopping at the moment, giving their thoughts. They have about five minutes each but sometimes they take a little bit less or a little bit more. We do think this is going to run this final debate for about another three or four hours and then there will be the vote at the end of this and at that point donald trump, we expect, will have been impeached. Im joined now by our north america editorjon sopel. Mike pompeo, the secretary of state, one of the People Democrats have said they would like to hear from one of the People Democrats have said they would like to hearfrom in the trial, the senate has now said he would testify but it doesnt look like they are going to call any witnesses, does it . Lets see what happens. He also said he would be happy to testify if that is appropriate and required by law so, yes in theory i would be delighted to come and talk to you, just as donald trump was delighted to go and talk to mueller and never did so lets see where this goes. The democrats do want to call witnesses and that is what Chuck Schumer has said and made an early bid for and that was ruled out. It remains to be seen that was ruled out. It remains to be seen what strategy the republicans are going to adopt. As it letsjust get this over with as quickly as possible and let us not call witnesses . Because you can be sure if mike pompeo, and im sure the democrats would lead to question him about what happened to his ambassador and the way the state department was short circuited by this operation and then if mike pompeo is going to appear, what about Mick Mulvaney . What about the former National Security adviser john bolton . And so it goes on and bit it becomes a much bigger deal. Interesting. I will believe it when i see interesting. I will believe it when isee mike interesting. I will believe it when i see mike pompeo taking the oath. Talk us through a little bit the political calculation of that senate trial, john. If the polls as laura was suggesting suggest that American Public opinion is moving in favour of the president on this, wouldnt there be an argument to be made for there be an argument to be made for the republicans to have this draw out as long as possible and get more and more people to move into their camp . That is what Donald Trumps instincts are. Donald trump because love a show and a bit of drama so he wa nts to love a show and a bit of drama so he wants to call the whistle blower, hunter biden, joe biden as witnesses but on the other side of it, you get the witnesses who may be more distant gliding to donald trump and it could be a kind of hand grenade that blows up in your face by doing it like that. That is why mitch, the leader of the senate, is being much more conservative about this and saying lets just get this over and done with and move on. It is not going to help the democrats at all in 2020. If we can portray this as a political witchhunt, let us just leave it at that and not take any risks. I think donald trump is less risks. I think donald trump is less risk adverse as we have seen throughout his presidency. I still think they will get the Mitch Mcconnell route and i will be surprised if we see a whole pile of people turning up to give evidence. With that in mind, we have talked about where this leaves donald trump in history, but where does that leave the constitution . You how this bank and from the white house to participate, a senate trial with no witnesses, it has never happened before. Where does that leave the balance of power Going Forward in the american constitution . balance of power Going Forward in the american constitution . I think what you have got at the moment is hyper partisan ship and everything is seen through this very simple kind of binary process. If we give them an inch, they will take a mile. We cant do it. We have to fight all the way. We have to not acknowledge that there are any mistakes made on anyones part and on the democrats side we have to go all out to get him because that is the only way we can win and i think that in that kind of process you are going to see people who are not going to be too concerned about the constitution. For example, the senate trial is meant to be the moment where everybody puts aside their prejudices and preconceptions about the case and listens to the evidence and you have already had Mitch Mcconnell saying, i am and you have already had Mitch Mcconnell saying, iam not and you have already had Mitch Mcconnell saying, i am not neutral on this, i think it is all a load of nonsense so on this, i think it is all a load of nonsense so the constitution may be a little bit more batted at the end of it and of course, it may be that if you get a democrat president in 2020 or 2024 that the president does something wrong and the republicans think, right, we are going to reach for the impeachment trigger and the impeachment weapon and see what we can do so i dont think it has been a particularly great time for the Founding Fathers of what they hoped would happen but lets face it, this isa would happen but lets face it, this is a whiz in a slightly partisan process and the dog in american politics has been there since time. It isa politics has been there since time. It is a bit more exaggerated at the moment. There is a lot of debate amongst democrats, moment. There is a lot of debate amongst democrats, particularly those in tramp boating seats about the process that they went to to get to their decision. At the moment theyre only about eight or ten democrats, i think, theyre only about eight or ten democrats, ithink, as theyre only about eight or ten democrats, i think, as far as it still stands, who have not come out and declare their positions. All but one have said that they are going to vote to impeach President Trump. There are a few that are still wavering. The calculation they are making is very transparent. Their own political futures, making is very transparent. Their own politicalfutures, we heard last night in our programme. This could be the end of some political careers, voting to impeach donald trump. That could be it, a one term congresswoman who cannot do any of the things she wanted today. This is not why she came to congress, she did not come to, say page donald trump, she came to a whole host of other things. That this is what is wont to happen and she could lose her site over it. The same mystery on the other side for republicans. A lot of people criticise republicans and say we are not about the beer in the fealty they give to donald trump. But at the end of the day, the base does not believe ness. The pay scale very strongly about this, they voted for donald trump and they think he is being impeached and the democrats are trying to bring him through the back door. Essentially, what republicans are doing in the houseis what republicans are doing in the house is representing the way that their voters feel, isnt it . You can talk about what their intentions are, but essentially that is what all politicians are sent out today. To represent the base and the people who put them there. Well, except that they would safely come from a mixed district and have got some people on site of the fence and some summon the others, he cannot keep everybody happy and that is where democrats are coming in and say we we re democrats are coming in and say we were elected, but we also have a constitution in the United States that asks us, and whisper an oath, when they come to congress a soprano. When they come to congress a soprano. They would say it is our constitutional duty to go down this process , constitutional duty to go down this process, but of course they have to worry about politics too. All but certain that democratic lawmakers will approve the impeachment charges against donald trump. That means he will face a senate trial next year. What does that actually entail . L president impeached by the house can Still Service president , the final decision will be taken by the senate. When it gets at the upper housein senate. When it gets at the upper house in early january, senate. When it gets at the upper house in earlyjanuary, the senate. When it gets at the upper house in early january, the case of be decided in the form of a trial. Chiefjustice presiding. Two other president s impeached by the house, bill clinton and andrewjohnson, both acquitted. It is highly likely donald trump will be acquitted, total to the democrats had the majority in the house. 216 votes required today, but the senate is controlled by the republicans. 20 of them would need to join Democratic Senators to reach the two thirds supermajority. Which the constitution requires to be made a sitting president. The constitution only says that this then it must hold a trial, it is not layout exactly how it should be conducted. But here is how Senate Leader Mitch Mcconnell the set. This is a political process, not anything traditional about it. In speech meant as a political decision. The minority leader has said he wants people close to the president to testify. Johns acting staff much more veiny or the former National Security adviserjohn bolton. We have not heard a single argument from leader mcconnell is to why the witnesses we have requested should not conform to. So, democrats and that donald trump would be acquitted, but they are determined to do as much political damage they can in the meantime. The impeachment process for all the other in a few weeks time. But the consequences that they felt all debate 32022 election day in november. About north american corresponded is back. I was there is very delicately, you and cathy were around when bill clinton was impeached long, long ago in history. How does this compare . How does it compare . I have to say, question, they made in washington and around the country is not quite so and around the country is not quite so riveted and sensational. Back in 1988 we were living through something that nobody had lived through before. We have read about the impeachment of andrewjohnson in the impeachment of andrewjohnson in the history books, but we had never seen the history books, but we had never seen the impeachment process layout. It became this kind of constitutional civics lesson from hell, that was overlaid with this extraordinary soup opera. It was poetry daytime soap, involving bill clinton, Monica Lewinsky. Because of the Monica Lewinsky scandal, which is of god at the bill clinton scandal. Of a align, that was the marital germ of bill clinton and hillary clinton. At the heart of it was a political showdown between two defining politicalfigures was a political showdown between two defining political figures of the 19905. Defining political figures of the 1990s. Bill clinton and his nemesis on capitol hill, the then republican House Speaker. A of course ended up losing hisjob over in a patient, because they were congressional mid term elections just before because they were congressional mid term electionsjust before bill clinton. Losing hisjob over impeachment. Because of that, he had to go. So, the reason he went was because of perjury. I mean, the reason he was impeached was because of perjury, because he lied before the grand jury. But i have spoken to republicans and asked for who were on capital hill at the time, he said maybe we should not have impeachment. This was an extramarital at their and at somehow makes the impeachment process less serious and maybe we should have just censured him. But democrats would say do you know what . Today is my serious, because this is about National Security and the democratic process. Perhaps, this is what the Founding Fathers meant impeachment to be for. You hearing things along those lines . Back in 1998 it did seem those lines . Back in 1998 it did seem to be a fabulous impeachment. There were moves to rather than impeach clinton, to have a censure motion on capitol hill. But there we re motion on capitol hill. But there were diehards in the Republican Party and the conservative movement headed by the sea bill clinton impeach. Remember they came off the back of this mid term elections in 1998 having loss. Many people thought they would ditch impeachment. There was an obvious out to take and they still decided to go ahead and impeach bill clinton. Of course, they ended up losing another House Speaker. The very day of bill clintons impeachment he resigned before lunchtime. There is this paradox, isnt there . That even though the charges against donald trump at palmer serious, because they involve National Security and the charge of essential bribery, trying to get political in return for military aid. It is not captivated the American Public in the same way. I suspect that is partly because impeachment did seem like a foregone conclusion, as soon as it democrats managed to get that majority in the house of representatives. You did sense, even though nancy pelosi was not on board initially, you did sense they would be a push to impeached on a jumper for sense they would be a push to impeached on a jumperfor he sense they would be a push to impeached on a jumper for he left office. I am going to blow your trumpet for you. Nick is very modest, but he has a phd in american governance. Do you think that without academic pattern for a second, that the process of impeachment is about to become more common in the United States and thereby become somehow debased . Yes, i have been watching today and it just shows how how hyper partisan washington has become. The partisan lines in 1998 have basically become partisan changes. What we have seen in american politics over the past 20 to 30 years is rarely used devices is much more commonly, the tele busters such as an example. It is to be really sparingly. The filibuster. Now, the filibuster is routine. Government shutdowns were very rare in the past, they are not reaching now, but they are pretty common. I sensed too that impeachment, as well, is going to be used as a partisan weapon more and more. Net, thank you. Valuable contacts. Let us just dip back into what is going on capitol hill and have a listen. I am concerned if we do not impeach this president heber get re elected, and codes. That, madam speaker, says it all. The gentleman from new york. |j madam speaker, says it all. The gentleman from new york. I now give our manager the gentle lady. |j gentleman from new york. I now give our manager the gentle lady. I take seriously my oath to uphold and defend the constitution. I do not ta ke defend the constitution. I do not take todays proceedings lightly. The Founding Fathers included the impeachment process and the constitution to a pull tab values, to maintain the checks and balances that are essential to separation of powers and to democracy. They knew way back in 1787 that a president could abuse the power of the office, in fact, they adopted the phrase high crimes and misdemeanours from a brace that had been used in the English Parliament since 1386. Intended to cover situations where unofficial abuses power and included disobeying an order from the parliament. Donald trump has abused the power of his office. By inviting a Foreign Government to interfere in the year selection. He did this not to help the United States, but to benefit himself. That is wrong and it is an impeachable offence. Then, when congress recognised our constitutional duty to investigate these wrongdoings, he obstructed the investigation every step of the way. That is also wrong and it is also unimpeachable offence. In our country no one is above the law, that includes the president of the United States. I yelled back. Thank you, madam speaker. December is such a great month and there are so many great dates in december. We talk about the wonderful things ive december in the past. In addition to christmas, we have the Boston Tea Party in december, also on december seven, 1941 a horrific act happened in the United States. One of president roosevelt said is a datable live and information. Today, december the 18th 2019 is another date that will live in information. Will live in information. Just because you hate the president of the United States and because youre so the United States and because youre so blinded by your hit that you decided the only way we can make sure this president does not get elected again as to impeach him on the blower of the peoples house, the blower of the peoples house, the passion of democracy and liberty of the cole world, we have decided the political power is far more important than principle. I would urge all members of the house to vote no on impeachment until it there boaters in the eye and listen, let me tie, the voters will remember next november what you are doing this december. This is a terrible time. This is a date that will have an infant. Republican congressman from georgia there. That debate on going. As Congress Weighs his fate, donald trump has the fans in the world stage that he can count on to come to his aid. That is of course in contrast to end bill clinton faced impeachment in 1998 and the Un General Assembly welcomed him with a standing ovation. One of the presents closest allies has been borisjohnson, but presents closest allies has been boris johnson, but he presents closest allies has been borisjohnson, but he has even kept him at arms length at nato meetings here in london. We arejoined by the former Us Ambassador to nato. It is good to have you with us. One of the problems i see in what has gone on in recent months is that here in the United States it is seen need to clea n United States it is seen need to clean up, you need to get to grips with corruption. Perhaps they look back at this and say, look at the fa cts back at this and say, look at the facts that have been presented to congress. And you are not prepared to a cce pt congress. And you are not prepared to accept as fact and i wonder at that undermines the law and order that undermines the law and order that america is trying to spread around the world . That america is trying to spread around the world . I think it does. I think that is one of the tragic ironies of this impeachment drama, that the United States actually for the better part of three decades, along with the European Union and united kingdom, had been advising these new governments in Eastern Europe afraid from connie mizzen do not be corrupt. Try to conform to the real of law tier is the american president asking any ukrainian president asking any ukrainian president to investigate one of our, one of his political rivals. That is corruption and an abuse of power. That is not lost on the Eastern Europeans. It is not lost on other countries around the world and if you agree, that democracy is on the defence might now from an authoritarian challenge, President Trump did not make that any better. He began democratic principles, by trying to get the ukrainians to get to do his dirty political business. Of course, republicans were said highly partisan and actually president zelensky is on the record as saying he did no military aid would be withheld. Well, there is testimony, as you know, as part of the house impeachment, the ukrainians knew by the middle of lets partyjuly, ukrainians knew by the middle of lets party july, well ukrainians knew by the middle of lets partyjuly, well before september 2019, when the president and first the aid. That was after the whistle blower, sorry for others context. But it is important to remember that the facts are that the Ukrainian Government knew exactly what was going on, that United States by withholding 391 million in military aid from the ukrainians. In return for which, they had today this investigation of joe in return for which, they had today this investigation ofjoe biden. That is corruption and that is an abuse of power. That is by the president is going to be impeached by the house of representatives today. Can you clarify something for us . President zelensky has also said publicly that there was no pressure and other top ukrainian officials have said the same thing. I do not know it they assign that because there is so dependent on the america that they cannot afford to alienate the white house at the moment, how do we get to the bottom of that . think you have given the explanation. The Ukrainian Government is desperate. They are fighting off the russian annexation of crimea and other battles, they need the United States on their site. The last thing presents a lenski is going to do is distance himself politically from President Trump. They cannot afford to do that right now. President zelensky. Of course they are not going to pick a fight or disagree publicly with the United States. But i listen, as they do, very carefully to my poor brethren any foreign service, who testified, the facts are clear. The United States try to, we know what they tried today. President trump, thatis they tried today. President trump, that is to compel the ukrainians to launch this investigation intojoe biden. Those of the fights and theyre biden. Those of the fights and they re unassailable. The republicans in congress are not even contesting the spikes. They are just arguing that the process is flawed, but they are not contesting what happened here. Ambassador, thank you very much forjoining us. Joining us as the former adviser to george w bush. They are poster weathers. Elizabeth, is there anything that could happen tonight as we get to this vote within the next two hours that would surprise you . You know, i am not sure about surprising, i think that we have spent so many yea rs of think that we have spent so many years of the Trump Administration seeing corrupt act after corrupt a cts seeing corrupt act after corrupt acts and you could go on and on about what are the potential impeachable offences from this president. I think his acceptance of foreign money while he is president is in direct violation of the constitution is one of those. But i spent a lot of time as a constitutional lawyer thinking about what the founders thought when they drafted our constitution. They were deeply concerned with notjust corruption, but for an corruption. The idea that the president would, as all of the testimony showed, the ambassador made clear there was a credit quo. This was not a general chest and stopping corruption, that isa chest and stopping corruption, that is a nice spin on it but that is not what he was doing. The idea was that President Trump wanted an announcement, he did not care about the investigation of huntjoe biden, he wanted an investigation that would hurt a political bible. They found as Worst Nightmare was the president in office instead of having unclouded judgment and loyalty to the American People, use the privilege of serving in an office of trust under the United States for his own personal, illogical, financial gain. That is what we had here. That is what the back show. As a constitutionalist, i am frankly glad there are people standing upfor am frankly glad there are people standing up for that in the house. I do not know it is the smartest political decision or not. I do not care, iamjust political decision or not. I do not care, i am just glad that our constitution is being vindicated and i guess what i hope is that the same thing happens in the senate. We have seen thing happens in the senate. We have seen much mention mcconnell has said, we might think, this cynical washington insiders might think. Run, even jonathan turley, washington insiders might think. Run, evenjonathan turley, the legal expert in washington and a much friend, even he says, he was called by the republicans as a witness, that the call was not perfect. For him the facts are not in dispute. At the president wanted to dispute the fa cts , the president wanted to dispute the facts, he could send Mick Mulvaney orjumbled facts, he could send Mick Mulvaney or jumbled into the facts, he could send Mick Mulvaney orjumbled into the senate to testify. Do you think they would exonerate the president . testify. Do you think they would exonerate the president . I think they would. But of course, the democrats are playing a very cynical ploy here. The democrats are saying we need to have more testimony, more witnesses. The fight of the matter is, asjonathan witnesses. The fight of the matter is, as Jonathan Charlie witnesses. The fight of the matter is, asJonathan Charlie has pointed out, the democrats had the opportunity in the house of representatives to compel those witnesses to come, to go to court and seek the testimony. They elected not to do so and she rushes through. The notion that the jury of senators are supposed to be pined as a fact, thatis are supposed to be pined as a fact, that is not their rule under the constitution. Their role is to listen to the facts presented by the house managers and determine whether a not high crimes and misdemeanours had been committed. On that point, you are not disputing whatjonathan said then are you . Do you think they call was not perfect . You are not disputing the facts, you just do not think it rises to the level of impeachment, is that producing . That is exactly right. I do not think the president should have had any mention ofjoe president should have had any mention of joe biden, president should have had any mention ofjoe biden, huntjoe biden orany mention ofjoe biden, huntjoe biden or any democrat in a conversation with a foreign leader. We are talking about foreign assistance. Let us be honest here, you should not have that type of conversation, because it leads exactly to we are and where we are as the democrats have used this as a tale to say this is by the president should be removed. For the president of the United States to say that cole was perfect as wrong. I think what he did was wrong, but i do not think it rises to the level of his removal under the constitution. Thank you both very much forjoining us. We will carry on looking at what is going on on capitol hill as this debate continues for the next three hours. But first, art north america editor is double this. John, to some extent editor is double this. John, to some exte nt d oes editor is double this. John, to some extent does this come down to whether you believe President Trump a cts whether you believe President Trump acts in good faith or President Trump acts in bad faith . Because we have been hearing throughout this programme for people who say it is absolutely the facts there. And people say the facts are not there, the evidence is not there. To some extent, it comes down to whether what you think about donald trump is a president , doesnt . Yes, i have listened to the debate. I think there is dialogue of the doubt. No site is listening to the other in this particular debate that is taking place in house of representatives at the moment. What is happening is you have got the republicans who by and large are not questioning any of the detail. They are going on the process points, as your ambassador was making. They are talking about how you always wanted the president impeached, this is in your goal from the president impeached, this is in your goalfrom the the president impeached, this is in your goal from the start. They are not dealing with the detail and the problem in the democrat side is that for other solemnity that they are expressing about this terribly great moment, they have not been able to bring republicans into the fold in any meaningful way. And so, you have any meaningful way. And so, you have an entirely partisan split, whether you believe the president and you think that this is all a hoax and a broad or whether you think the president is absolutely guilty as charged and not to be hounded out of office. Those are the two extremes and it is very hard to find anyone locating any centre ground. And presumably, that sentiment, true of capitol hill, but also true of the country and the chances of a large number of people, significant enough number of people, significant enough number of people to flip the election one by or another, changing their minds because of this impeachment process. Where to put that . The one thing i thought has an interesting, i saw the polling data that said that 72 of people think that said that 72 of people think that the white house or to supply witnesses in the trial, so that people can be questioned and it is a very old idea. They notion that they should be a trial, but you do not call witnesses, because they might be able to reveal information of what went on. I think that a significant and potentially troubling for the white house was not people do want to get to the bottom of what happened and get an explanation. But by annoyed, if youre in the champ camp, you are praying the donald trump, you think it is all hoax and witchhunt. If youre in the trump camp. And if you are both nancy pelosi and the democrats, you think he has done something grievously wrong and should be impeachment that is not much in the middle. I am most gratified that you think i am a bench bigger and put me on the level of catty k. I did see her french slightly at that. Kevin, the minority leader, i saw. Slightly at that. Kevin, the minority leader, isaw. It slightly at that. Kevin, the minority leader, i saw. It is true, isnt it . What republicans say, the democrats know phil well this is going to fail in the senate and yet they are pressing on regardless, because they know it is going to hurt him politically. And yet, look, you have to look at the internal politics of the democratic party. Nancy pelosi, she won the speakership in 2018 and was immediately wary about going down the path of impeachment. She managed to hold off when the miller report came out and said this is not enough to report the pay present, let us move on. Then, i think moderate democrats thought after the whistle blower reported there was something awry and she could not for the line. I think there is such an insatiable demand for an impeachment process that she had to give ground. Ido process that she had to give ground. I do not think the democrats omitted to be here. I was speaking to a senior democrat over the weekend to percent let, this is not ideal. But they felt they had to go with this particular approach, because so Many Democrats felt and the grassroots wa nted democrats felt and the grassroots wanted it. It may yet blow up in their face, 2020 wanted it. It may yet blow up in theirface, 2020 elections. I was in michigan yesterday, the congress and that i was about as potentially acknowledging that this could cost her career. Thank. So, i am going to a christmas party. You are staying with an impeachment special. What you will happen . We know what is going to happen, we know the democrats had a number is now. Sometime around ten oclock last night washington time the news came that the cat was then, they had the numbers to impeach the president , he will be impeach. The fight as we know what is going to happen does not make this any less of a historic day in the United States was up in the countrys or history, donald trump or only be the third president ever to be impeached. That means he is only the third president he enough members of converse believe has risen to high crimes and dismay know. That is a big deal. It is certainly a very big deal for donald trump, who knows that this will hang over him for the rest of his presidency. And indeed, the rest of his career. Ok, it is a historic davis up that is that for me. We will be here throughout the evening. We will leave you with the live pictures from capitol hill. Heavy rain falling on saturated ground has already caused this local roadin ground has already caused this local road in cornwall to turn into a river. More scenes like that coming up river. More scenes like that coming up over the next few days. To the rain spread north and eastwards. Strong went across western hills, potentially gusting as high as 60 or 70 miles an hour. The southerly we nzel 70 miles an hour. The southerly wenzel drive milder act northwards, so wenzel drive milder act northwards, so by the end the night, temperatures will be nine attend tender grades in northern scotland. Tomorrow, rain at times across the day for england and wales. Should be drier further day for england and wales. Should be drierfurther north, day for england and wales. Should be drier further north, with a little bit of hazy sunshine. During the afternoon you will start to see the rain turning heavy again across wales, the midlands and southern england. It might be mild, but this painful saturated ground increases the risk of localised flooding. That further batch of rain purchased northridge during thursday night, more rain will follow the south. This is bbc news. The headlines. A historic vote on capitol hill the decision on whether to impeach donald trump will tonight be made by a deeply dvided congress. If a president undermining our National Security and using the federal government for his own selfish personal gain is not impeachable conduct, then madam speaker, i do not know what is. It is a sham impeachment that is being carried out at the expense of hard working americans who just want us to move forward. Britains dementia crisis millions of people may be forced to become carers for loved ones unless more money is invested in the system. Tony blair launches a scathing attack on his partys performance at the election laying the blame onjeremy corbyn
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