Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. Kahn won power in pakistan two years ago with a promise to root out corruption and take on the countries vested interest. So hows it going . Well, rising food prices and the covid pandemic have left many pakistanis feeling worse off. While the Anti Corruption drive has become a political battleground. My guest today ishaq dar was pakistans Finance Minister a former Prime Minister nawaz sharif now both of those men are trying to rally opposition to imran khan. But how much credibility do they have . Ishaq dar, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. Let us begin with your personal status, your legal status. You are a wanted man in pakistan. Are you here in london to escape the judicial process . Not really, i think you must be aware of the pakistan history. When our in pakistan over 73 years the rhetoric has been used over the last two dictatorships and the current one isnt different. Because this regime is known to be under the martial law. I can prove that there is nothing against me. And i have all the evidence. I hope that you know that the prime allegation against me, my name is not in the panama paper. Let me stop because some people will not follow in great detail. So you are saying your name is not in the pan my papers. Nevertheless we learned an awful lot from those Panama Papers published in 2016, about monies being stashed away in a foreign bank account. And involves him very top level pakistanis. And there was reason to believe that notjust nawaz Sharif Family but your family too. No, there isnt mention of my family. Im not saying there was a specific mention of your family but the National Accountability bureau decided after the publication of the Panama Papers to look very closely at yours and your families interests, assets and accounts. And they found that there were grave problems with your accounts. No, not at all. Because you see, im sure that you would be privy that at this Supreme Court direction that set up a joint investigation team. Which is extrajudicial active decided. And there were two Military Intelligence members who were virtually governing the other six members. Of the gic. You see there is a background. Im actually interested in whats known in pakistan is a National Accountability bureau. Which is the main agency of Anti Corruption. And they look very carefully at you and your families interest as you well know. In September 2017 they concluded that you and your family owned assets beyond your known sources of income. They said quite specifically, you acquired assets pecuniary interest resources in his own name and the name of dependence totalling roughly 6 million us more than 830 million pakistani rupees. Is it your contention that the National Accountability bureau has no integrity . It has lots its integrity. It is an institution which is used against. Even say that with respect sir, when you were a very senior serving government. Idid. I held a Press Conference was up and i explained by the way, this number as per my tax return. A prime allegation against me that was on the basis of which Supreme Court directed filed a grievance was that i did not file a 20 year tax return in pakistan for the 1981 to 2001. Never missed deporting when he was here. Until 1976. And then in North America two years without any pakistan. This is such a blatant allegation for the top is a . In that case, lets be very open and transparent with each other. Ive interviewed many Government MinistersAround The World over the years was that they always say oh, im not responsible over any corruption at all and i believe in transparency. I do. You do. How Many Properties do you and your family own . Its all in my tax returns. Just give me the answer because i dont know. I have my Main Residence in pakistan which has been taken over by this regime. I havent got too Many Properties. How Many Properties do you and your family have . How Many Properties to you and your family have . 0ne. You and your family own one property . Yes. So, all of these stories in the pakistani press, multiple properties by you and your family. Property interests overseas including in dubai. We are sitting in london, do you not own nothing in london . Not just you, your family . No, not at all. 0wn nothing . And dubai . Dubai . My sons have just one villa. Which is owned by them. Theyre in business for the last seventeen years. So when i asked you how Many Properties you and yourfamily own, you said one, that wasnt stricktly true . No, it is strictly true because they are adult 17 years, they are in business. So they are independent of me. You know very well that when the nab looked at your assets they were looking at you and your family. I have no issue. Everything is accounted for. Thats exactly true. If all of this is so clear cut, you only owned one property in the entire world, youve got tax records that have been kept and given to the authorities over the last 20 years. Yup. If everything is so crystal clear, why do you not go to pakistan and make this case in a court of law . Well, the court of law you know, my lawyers were there, i am here for medical treatments. Youve been here for what, the best part of three years . On this medical issue. Yeah. Yes i am. Are you still really suffering . Yes, iam. And you couldnt possibly get back to pakistan . Well, lets see whats happening in pakistan. Where are the human rights . Whats happening where dozens of people have been killed. Those are human rights abuses. The National Accountability bureau have been killed . In the nab many people have died, yes. Its open secret. Google you have all the detail. I can leave detail with you if you want. This institution has been used against opponents. As i said, i. The premise of the entire thing, the net worth if it is documented in my tax returns and my tax return is not missing. So it is properly accounted for what is the issue . The issue is it is something different. Fighting for the supremacy and i have a lwa ys for the supremacy and i have always been fighting for financial. You introduced the name mr sharif. I think we need to talk about nawaz sharif as well as yourself as a nawaz sharif is also in london, also on medical grounds. Handed by the nab. He manhandled as you say it now nawaz sharif is a convicted criminal. I hope you know that both cases late night cases in which he is connected. Bothjudgements it is been written that the prosecution has not been able to prove any corruption, antikickback, and he lost to the Executive Orders and so on. Im sorry sir but it is quite clear that he is a convicted criminal. Again Accountability Court which works alongside the National Accountability bureau found against nawaz sharif. I believe he was given a ten year sentence and that was read used ultimately to seven for the he was then allowed to come to london on medical grounds. The same medical grounds that brought you to london too. Here there is two of you, is in a . And now you and he, you of course used to be his Finance Minister in the pakistan government. You and he put yourselves forward in leading voices in the opposition in pakistan. Demanding early elections and an end to mr and cons government. I ask you what credibility do you think you have with the pakistani people . The word thing that world has witnessed that it was a stolen election for the up it was a rigged election for the we have experienced all people 2018 servers indicate that in mind would win up the Human Rights Commission in pakistan the dirtiest election everyone knows the election has been stolen from us. With respect, i just look back at the iiittt monitors report on that election. They reported some grave concerns about abuses and specific places. Not involving Just One Party several different parties. Sure. But the final and ultimate conclusion was that they believe the result was incredible. That mrn cons election victory in 2018 was credible. That was the conclusion of the report. But you have read all the reports. The human rights. You can cherry pick the most negative. Im telling you the eu monitor isa im telling you the eu monitor is a highly respected, look to everything that is happening pakistan and they concluded that Mrn Cons Victory was credible. No. Free and Fair Election which is the global one. Do we have any question on their integrity . Look at the report. I dont believe theres ever been in election in pakistan without some abuses. Where every single thing was conducted with freedom and integrity for top that doesnt work in pakistan. The truth is mrn con has a democratic mandate. Hes been in powerfor two years and you are now staying to the pakistani people he must be removed from office. This election has been stolen. It was a rigged election, there was people ringing. Using the nab. During the results was put off of hours. Pulling against reporting 35 seeds were rigged and stolen. 0therwise reporting 35 seeds were rigged and stolen. Otherwise he would have never been in government. Well, youre a party chooses to say that. Im simply looking back to Michael Garland the chief of the un monitor the Eu Monitoring Team that said overall the election result is credible. Well, you havent read the whole report. The whole report of ug. What did it say before this last sentence . His conclusion is the most important thing, i think you would agree. Maybe you wouldnt. Lets move on. Lets talk about what your tactics are now. You and nawaz sharif are now. You and nawaz sharif are sending your video links back into pakistan sometimes to thousands of people demanding in early and to mr and current government. This isjust a month ago nawaz sharif said to thousands of people he said that the integrity of the army chief had disappeared. He said that the general was responsible for levering him out of office and rigging 2018, as you said, this is what nawaz sharif said, directly to the general, the chief of the army is that you packed up our government and you put the nation at the altar of your own wishes. You rejected the peoples choice in elections and installed in inefficient, and installed in inefficient, and capable brute leading to economic catastrophe. What an extra ordinary thing to say. Of your countries chief of army. Its their reality. The buck stops at the top. And the deep state is known, what deep state doesnt pakistan. Is it a surprise to you . It is known the world. They just surprise to you . It is known the world. Theyjust gave an interview. And they said what is deep state quoting pakistan as an example. So please, we must be fair to analyse things. The election was stolen, it started off from don leaks the supremacy of debt would not democracy and fiscal and transparency. Is it wrong . Been holding up democracy and the democratic value. People would think that you are supporting us. Think that you are supporting us. Lets be clear. You are saying the Pakistani Military the army in particular are subverting all democratic processes in your country . This is the global report. Its not weak. No, i want to is the global report. Its not weak. No, iwant to be is the global report. Its not weak. No, i want to be clear what you are saying. Because pakistani people are listening to these thing that this interview and you are condemning the military of your own country as subverting your democracy. We have to talk all the newsreels. Its not all the entire institution for the thats the difference. Its a wish list, a plan of certain people who enforce an pakistan martial law. So you are saying the army is led by the general who you are it nawaz sharif whose opinion is entirely subverting democracy, is that what youre saying . I want to be clear. What we are saying that if the elections were rigged it is not established beyond doubt. If the elections we re beyond doubt. If the elections were rigged and 70 two its not me doing that we its the mr sharif had not a problem with the deep state and the institutions he would have been a full time Prime Minister. Institutions he would have been a fulltime Prime Minister. Why would he say . Let me be clear, youre now alleging that this is entirely unacceptable when your first boss and you are very close ally nawaz sharif was working hand in glove with pakistans Military Dictator for many years. And suddenly hes decided that the military and the way that they interfere and the way that they interfere and politics in pakistan isnt entirely unacceptable. What kind of hypocrisy is that . disbelieve this analysis. I disagree with you. What ive just had is wrong . Maybe evolution process. 0h just had is wrong . Maybe evolution process. Oh you mean because he was in power now is out of power so hes really angry with the army because they wont work with him . Its not the first time. Its a third time as Prime Minister. Con Interior Minister thats the whole word. Mr sharif would have been full time Prime Minister if he had not got in trouble with the establishment. Mrn con may be unpopular in pakistan now but when he heard what nawaz sharif said last month at that rally when he directly targeted the chief of army, imran khan said how dare nawaz sharif. 2 the general and blame him for what is happening in pakistan when for years mr nawaz sharif polish the boots ofa nawaz sharif polish the boots of a former Military Dictator. When imran khan said that i dare say he actually had a great deal of sympathy for many pakistani who know hypocrisy when they see it. I think they probably havent seen these 21 clips how he had been maligning the military. The military army chief, the Intelligence Services of pakistan. And not too long before just last year when he was in the United States he gave a statement that it is the isi the Intelligent Service which actually was responsible for 0sama bin laden. Etc, etc. When he was out of powder, when he was in opposition, he had given 21 different statements at different statements at different times. He was known as taliban harm. Are we talking or wish to discuss this performance are we here to talk whether it is a democracy or advocacy . Other oppositions and you have created this movement you have created this movement you want to deliver early elections and see imran booted out of power. But many power during our people even in your own movement are backing away from the targeting of the Pakistani Military. Regrettable that nawaz sharif had named the military chief by name. Even nawaz sharif whose own daughter maryam had to stress at great length that she was not anti military. It sounds that nawaz sharif has overstepped the mark. There seems to be confusion. Mr nawaz sharif as Prime Minister or otherwise is not insight military. Please, lets be very clear. He blamed certain individuals. You know it stops at the top. There is a huge history about that, im sure you would be privy to the lea ks. We sure you would be privy to the leaks. We brought out from grey and it was white. If nawaz sharif talks of certain interventions which are against the constitution of pakistan, is it something wrong . Lets talk about politics and your message to your own people. We know that pakistani people are suffering right now. Food Price Inflation is soaring. Covid 19 is seeing a second surge in your country creating real economic difficulties. Theres going to be any growth in the pakistani economy this year. In the midst of all of that, you are creating a new level of political instability demanding that imuran call early elections, comic not calling him illegitimate. Banging on about the vote rigging claiming that the army is really in power. Do you think that your approach is really helping the interest of the pakistani people . I think you have to renew empire. 2014 we won the election 2013. Massive majorities two thirds, almost. 2014 to consequences rigged only as claim. Youve gone back now six years. Im putting myself in the shoes of a pakistani today who sees rising food prices, political instability geopolitical instability geopolitical instability and you wonder whether the opposition sitting and lending really have the interest of ordinary pakistani people at heart . Yes, we have 75 people at heart. Thats why we have the movement. This country had witnessed double election five years at lowest inflation. Lowest interest rates. Best Performing Stock Market in this year. Most sta ble market in this year. Most stable currency. The highest gdp growth at 5. 8 . Its all music. Youre western, you know the institutions had all the praise and what was the final report . What did it say . Pakistan is going to g20 by 2030. We were striving to bring it even earlier. And we were clearly hoping that since we had ended we had 40 extreme terrorism and pakistan. We had improved Economic Indicators and pakistan. I understand. Im not suggesting that your personal economic record was bad. In some ways it was good. Listen, im just trying to get yo