Lost the election, and the election wasnt stolen through fraud. Theyre going to have to prove that beyond reasonable doubt. Which is a high bar, of course. A high bar. That leads me to believe that we are seeing the tip of the iceberg on this. Do you think jackson of has more . Yes. I would believe he has a lot more. Okay, lets bring in Michael Cohen, Donald Trumps former fixer, and attory. He is now a principle of crisis x. He is the host of the mea culpa, and political beatdown podcast, and the author of the New York Times bestseller revenge how donald trump weaponized the u. S. Department of justice against his critics. Great to have you tonight. Good to be with. You heard the former Attorney General say that he believes that donald trump knew that he lost the election, and what do you think about that being a defense, that his attorneys are going to say . He believes there are Election Fraud dont nobody could show evidence of it. Donald will now reach to any defense he thinks will exonerate him from the charges that are being brought against him. He will ally in order to accomplish that. I have a whole issue with bill barr, to be honest with you. Bill barr is a man who was Donald Trumps fixer after me. He became the Attorney General of the United States as far as weaponizing the department of justice, he was the department. He was the head of the department of justice. He was it would be no different than Sam Maple Grove ono for john gaudy. Before he has the ability to come on this station or any station, and talk about what donald trump did, what he needs to do is to come clean himself, talk about and say what . It weaponization of the Justice Department that donald told him to do, including like what my book is about, how they, meaning bill barr, donald trump, et cetera, weaponize the Justice Department to go against a critic. All because i refused to await my First Amendment constitutional right. Its interesting you say that. He did talk about donald trump weaponizing the doj tonight with Kaitlan Collins, and what bill barr said was, i think there is no question he believes these institutions should be used to go after his enemies. Which is thats the whole premise of my book. However, who did he use in order to effectuate the goal . Bill barr. Again, before bill barr gets a chance to sit there, trying to welcome himself back to polite society, he needs to own what he did. He needs to be held accountable for his actions, the same way i did, for example, when i testified before the House Oversight committee and the other six i could understand why have such strong feelings about him. He settling adjusting to Kaitlan Collins tonight, which is about the amount of carnage. Thats his word. He thinks donald trump believes in his wake. Let me play this for you. He leaves, and his way, ruined lives like this, the people who went up to capitol hill, these individuals, many of the people who served him and government that got sucked into those things, and he leaves all this carnage in his wake. Do you think he cares about that . He doesnt care about that. Loyalty is a oneway street for him. I feel you have something to say about that phenomenon. I agree with everything he said except for the fact that he was part of the group that was leaving the carnage in the street. He was part of the people who are weaponizing the department of justice. He is not an innocent baby in this case. He is, in fact, the guilty party. Again, he needs to come clean. As we i mean, in the detriment, it says there are six unindicted coconspirators, and we have a graphic of who we know, where we have reported on, who we eve they are, and theres a sixth who we have not yet confirmed that it. As you know those folks, rudy uliani, what do you think is in store for the six unindicted coconspirators . A lot of trouble. What will ultimately happen is government will come to these unindicted coconspirators and give them an opportunity to tell the truth, to tell their side of the story. Each and every one of them knows based upon the allegations, the causes of action that were raised in the indictment, each and every one of them knows that this is me they are talking about. Right now, there are in the Honeymoon Stage, where, all right, there is an investigation, theyre looking into me. So far, there is nothing happening maybe they think they wont be indicted, maybe theyre thinking we have gotten away with something. That is a foolish way to think. The government, especially jacks mitt, is not allowing anybody to escape. Each and every one of them knows that this is me they are talking about, and i think its necessary for me to have my attorneys reach out to jack smith, and his team, to ensure that at least i have an opportunity to provide information, if they havent already. Im a Firm BelieverRudy Giuliani has already spoken. What makes you think that . I understand rudy. Rudy has no interest in spending his remaining days on this planet behind bars for donald trump. In fact, i think the more important thing in this indictment to look at, are not to the six coconspirators are, but rather who is missing from this indictment. For example, you dont see any mention of mark meadows. You see nothing of jared kushner. Jared kushner was the secretary of everything. How is it possible that he is not listed here . He was there, on donald slap, the entire time, from the day donald entered the white house to the day that he left. How do you explain it . I believe he is probably a cooperating witness. Jared kushner, thats interesting because people pointed out mark meadows is conspicuously absent, okay, from the indictment. Jared kushner is his soninlaw. You think his son in law would cooperate against donald trump . In a heartbeat. Needing jared is any different than donald . Do you think donald wouldnt throw jared under the bus in order to save himself . The answer is an impact to guess. You think the same is true of mark meadows . Absolutely. Whats the one thing bill barr said i totally agree with . Donald doesnt care about anyone or anything other than himself. He is a oneway street. If that means jared has to go down to mark meadows, or rudy, where eastman, or any of them, he doesnt care. That is who he is. Speaking of eastman, his Attorney Says that john eastman will not turn on donald trump. Here is what he said earlier tonight. Dr. Eastman is happy to find his side of the story, to talk about the issues he thinks are important to the constitution and the country, and under the right circumstances, he would share those views and share those recollections of everything that happened 2020 with the special counsel. With by cooperation you mean flipping on donald trump, or providing incriminating information, then absolutely not. Its interesting. He will share his recollections of everything that happened but wont provide incriminating information. What do you think happened with that . The lawyers talking gibberish, let me be very clear. You dont even really need john eastman to come out and tell the story. Jack smith already has the story. He has the text messages, emails, and he has testimony from other witnesses that place john eastman into the middle of this scenario. If either he is going to turn around and tonight, which would be 1000 to one violation for lying to Law Enforcement, where he is going to turn around and cooperate what the other testimony, or witnesses have made. Whatever this guy says, it is a relevant. They are all, right now, again, in the Honeymoon Stage where they are not feeling the full force of what jack smith is going to bring on to them. Look, ive been there. Im told the Southern District of new york 48 hours to plead guilty, or theyre filing 80page indictment thats going to include my wife. That is on my case. Imagine what jack smith and the doj is going to do knowing that they have the information, knowing they have the testimony, we have the documentary evidence, and so on, in order to bring all of these people to justice. Quickly, Donald Trumps, one of his defenses seems to be, i was listening to the advice of my counsel. They are the people telling me to pursue all of these fraudulent election claims. What do you think of that defense . It is exactly why rudy, eastman, clark, sydney powell, all of them need to come clean, and all of them need to provide testimony. Donald is already telling them what he is going to do. He is going to use them as a scapegoat, like he did with me, going to use them in order to exonerate himself, and there are going to be, like me, the ones holding the bag for donald. Michael cohen, great to get your perspective as always. Thank you for coming in tonight. Always good to see you. Kaitlan collins just interviewed former Attorney General bill barr this evening, as you heard. He had a lot to say about trump s legal trouble. To me, it is amazing that you read through the indictment, and his behavior in that indictment, and it is nauseating, it is despicable behavior, whether criminal or not, someone who engaged in that kind of bullying about a process that is fundamental to our system, and our self government, shouldnt be anywhere near the oval office, and for him to be attacking a prosecutor who is investigating that, with all the epithets and so forth, what she has no basis for, as far as i can tell, you know is ridiculous. Now, he is an aggressive prosecutor. He is the kind of prosecutor, in my view, that if you think someone has committed a crime, he, you know, hones in on it and really goes to try and make that case. Theres no question, he is aggressive. I do not think that he is a partisan actor. Here to discuss all of this, we have jessica washington, Senior Reporter for the route, cnn senior political analyst, john avlon, former u. S. And harry litman. Great to have all of you here tonight. Jessica, bill barr, it was fascinating to hear everything he said to. Kaitlan did an incredible interview tonight. As we all know, remember, bill barr is a big believer in president ial power. He thinks donald trump should be nowhere near the oval office again, he said tonight. Your thoughts as you listen to some of what he said . The fact bill barr was his biggest defender, on of his biggest defenders, and now he is saying, look, i dont think, like you said, should be anywhere near the presidency. We should listen to that. I know there have been other reports, i believe nbc spoke to, i think, dozens of folks within trumps cabinet who said we do not think it was anonymous, to be fair. We do not think this man should be president. I think that matters, i think the American Public should probably pay a little bit of attention to that. You think . This is part of a pattern, not only didnt strike me as former Attorney General as such a strong advocate as you say, a unitarian executive, pro donald trump saying this man should be nowhere near the oval office, because he will weaponize against his enemies, and you add that to the former cabinet members and Administration Officials who are warning his supporters, and the American People about the danger of a second donald trump term, and his hardcore supporters believe they know this man better than the people who worked with him daytoday who were warning that is an unprecedented situation. The people who know you best are warning about you the most. Listen to them. Joe, what jumped out at you at this indictment, this 45page indictment . There is behavior that i think was outlined in the investigations on capitol hill. For me, i dont think there is anything particularly shocking or new, rather, certainly some things that are shocking, but if you look and a broader context of the conversation, i think many people have pointed out there is no explicit quid pro quo. I think if you look at the charges brought relative to the actual actions taken by the president , its very difficult, a high burden to prove that the president was knowingly making those statements. I think there are many people who are better equipped than i am, many attorneys who have command made those same statements, many who worked at the department of justice and made those same we cant be picking and choosing. It is a difficult road to hold, but everyone could agree the president conducted himself in ways that are not necessarily becoming of the oval office. Harry, before have you respond to that. I want to play what donald trump antibodies attorneys appeared to be trying out. Okay. So here is a mashup of those. You had one of the leading constitutional scholars in the United States, john eastman, say to President Trump, this is a protocol that you couldnt follow. Its legal, that eliminates criminal intent. Our focus is on the fact that this is an attack on free speech, and political advocacy. And, there is nothing that is more protected under the First Amendment than political speech. They didnt want to go to trial so that instead of debating the issues against joe biden the President Trump is sitting in a courtroom. How is that justice . Okay. So, from what i got from that, he listened to his lawyers. This is a free speech issue. Hes a lot to say whatever he wants. And its to distract from whatever the biden familys problems. Our which one of those will fly . Speed around. The last one wont even come up in the courtroom. The free speech is just gibberish. Look, these he is charged with making agreement to do things that are unlawful. It uses words to do that. It doesnt make it a free speech issue. Hes not in the political frame. Hes trying to, in fact, up and the political process. And lawyers, there are six reasons it wont fly. But the first one is, their coconspirators. You cannot get relied on advice from someone whos conspiring with you to pick the law. Well, wait a minute, they are his attorneys. Before they were his coconspirators, they weres attorney. Why cant he rely on the advice from his attorneys . Well first, because, the advice is giving in furtherance of a crime, thats just black letter law. But even if it were, to do it, you would need to have they would need to come forward and say, yes, i told him it was okay to false electives. Yes, i told him its okay to obstruct. Not telling him that he could do his free speech. Its the actual charge that they have to be able to do. Quickly, john, go. Were playing pretty fast, and lose, i just listen to the disbarred attorneys, saying one of only two men who have been Attorney General more than once its effectively a hit man for the president. But also, at the same, time saying we should agree with them. Well, hes referring to Michael Cohen. Because, Michael Cohen, his point is that he feels that Bill Barr Weaponized the justice war against him. So he has that will certainly, he has his own animus. But i certainly, think at one point, we just have to follow the facts, wherever they lead. But i think that if we keep going back and forth. Okay, so lets do that, joe. You said earlier, that there is all this conflicting evidence, and we cannot possibly. No but other than the indictment, im sure youve read the indictment, it lays out a pattern that would suggest that donald trump was repeatedly confronted with the facts that he had lost the election by his close to state. He was told again and again that the conspiracies he was putting were not true. And then we go on ahead and spelled them. And so, that is a fact pattern, clearly, theyre going to rely upon. But you need to take that into account when youre coming up with the, its impossible for us to know. Because they laid out a pretty clear fact pattern that suggested he knew. I never said it was impossible for us to. No i said, there are suddenly, many attorneys have gone through many prestigious institutions, who have been appointed by both republicans and democrats who have said, unequivocally, this is a very difficult case to prove. I dont see how somehow, you want to put words in my mouth and say that i somehow okay, can i make one quick point. Quickly. It doesnt matter if he thinks this, whether or not he believes, it fairly, you cannot go and do false election. So you cannot do an obstruction of proceeding. Just one thing that was interesting to hear, mike pence, former Vice President , mike pence, today spoke out, he has been remarkably consistent since january six. And, he has always said that the constitution did not allow him to do what he was being asked of. Even after all of the pressure that has been put on him. So, here he is today. At the end of the day. History will hold donald trump accountable for his reckless words and actions on that day. The American People deserve to know that President Trump and his advisers didnt just ask me to pause, they asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn the election. I feel like thats Even Stronger than something ceased and in the past. He was asked to overturn an election. I agree, and i think that it is so hard to argue that this behavior wasnt, at least, potentially illegal. I mean the fact that its very not much legal. And, its so hard not to come out as political in these things. Were looking at repeatedly, trump was told, this does not happen. Over, and over, and over again in that indictment. And, then mike pence is saying, i was told to do something that was unconstitutional that donald trump had the knowledge to know that it was unconstitutional. And we could see that maybe, a few people, who are listed as coconspirators in this indictment said that it was an unconstitutional. But he was told repeatedly, over and over a