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Welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world im Fareed Zakaria coming to you from new york today on the Program AmericasCollege Campuses in turmoil over the war in gaza is it free speech or threats of violence we have two strong voices with very different view then in israel, plans continue for the invasion of rafah at the white house continues to urge against michael oren, israels former ambassador to america, helps examine how this will play out Secretary Blinken traveled to china this week and gave a warning over beijing Supportive Moscow are us, China Relations Two Tenths or not dense enough ill doctor Donald Trumps former ta tough china aid map products but first, heres my take its difficult to know what to make of the turmoil on College Campuses these days. The protests polarization intimidation, and general bitterness in a revealing article in the wall street journal Douglas Belkin sets these events against a broader backdrop. The disappearance of a Sense Of Community. He points to Research Demonstrating that quote, College Students today are lonelier, less resilient, and more disengaged than their predecessors. The university communities, they populate are socially fragmented, diminished, and less vibrant one wonders whether this loss of community has led to more distrust, sharper disagreements, and more anger people are encountering one another at these protests, often for the first time, often as strangers the college campus, i went two decades ago was full of political disagreements. It was the time of ronald reagan, the cold war, the Nuclear Freeze movement, and divestment from south africa. Tents and shantytowns were built on the plaza outside the president s office but we also had long and soul debates about the issues and every group i was in at class or an extra curricular organizations, people disagreed about the issues, but they did so seriously, listening to others and engaging in what was mostly civil discourse though its easy to romanticize the past when reagans defense secretary Caspar Weinberger came to speak, Student Protesters repeatedly tried to disrupt his speech. But the vast majority in the room, most of them almost certainly disagreed with weinberger, booed the protesters what i would the elad was a place with overflowing classrooms and meeting halls, keg parties, debates, plays, and sport events always well attended, which are made for rich community. Many of my best friends today are people i met in those packed rooms for decades ago ive returned to my campus several times since then and for many years it felt very much the same place i had been to all those years ago. But over the last decade, campus life has seemed center. And then came covid, which like a neutron bomb, decimated Community Life on campus while leaving all the beautiful buildings intact in his essay, belkin quotes or residential assistant at another college whose job it was to help socialize the freshmen many wouldnt leave their rooms even for dome meetings. Asieh over text if they could video chat instead, the bewildered rass, i was literally across the Hall A College Official at another place suggested this may be the new normal there may be no real return to the past while the pandemic might have been the great accelerator, the decline of social capital, the bonds that sustained communities has been a theme of scholarly work for decades now, the seminal work on the topic was a 9795 essay by harvards robert putnam, later expanded into a book bowling alone the title draws on data that showed that more americans were bowling. But fewer and fewer were bowling in Leagues Putnam follows the decline of social groups and tries to pinpoint causes the single most consistent predictor. He presciently observed was television. Technology and the internet have allowed people to make leisure a private rather than communal activity. It goes beyond College Campuses in my book, age of revolutions, i point out that what has really caused alienation in america, even when incomes have stayed steady or even risen, has been the collapse of community and small town america the mom and pop store gone unable to compete with amazon. The corner arcade displaced by Online Gaming the local Movie Theater run out of town by netflix. Churches were so Many Americans gathered every sunday are increasingly empty the big Metro Centers to which everyone has flocked to have communities but their communities largely shaped by our jobs. The journalist Nicholas Lemon once noted that he had lived in five American Cities washington, new orleans, austin, cambridge, and pelham according to him the two quote, most deficient in the Putnam Virtues and code, essentially lacking and social capital. Work, cambridge and washington, as he put it, the reason is that these places are the big time work absorbs all the Energy Community is defined functionally not spatially. It is a professional peer group rather than a neighborhood and its natural to wonder whether this Sense Of Community is tenuous. That is, if you lose your job your membership in the community is revoked along with it College Campuses today are still exciting places. They are full of smart wellmeaning students extraordinary professors, and all kinds of educational and extra curricular opportunities. But they have weakened as actual communities where people mingle, interact, and get to know and trust each other and in this sense, campuses today are not that different from the broader American Society of which they are a reflection go to cnn. Com slash opinions to read my column this week and cnn. Com slash fareed for link to buy my new book and lets get started in 1968 at the height of the vietnam war, Columbia University was wracked by Campus Protests in the end, officials there called in the police to arrest the demonstrators. History seems to be repeating itself as the campus has again become the epicenter of protests classes have gone hybrid, and columbias president Minouche Shafik called in the nypd to clear the encampment, the restaurant more than 100 students one day earlier, schiff, he gave testimony before congress in that hearing, republican lawmakers grilled her on what they described as antisemitism among the protesters the progress and the responses raised big questions, joining me now to discuss all this, are bruce robins and Bret Stephens, bruises a professor at columbias department of english and comparative literature, but is a columnist the New York Times bruce, let me start with, you. Ask you, what do you think has, has gone wrong at columbia over the last few weeks well, most of the faculty and i think the student body think that whats gone wrong is calling the police that the protest was calm wellorganized, not violent. There is little, if any intimidation of anyone and there are people who dont agree with the protesters who absolutely dont agree with bringing in the police. I think thats the single biggest thing the other thing that faculty object to most strongly. Again, whatever their positions on the middle east is that in president sharp peaks testimony before congress, she didnt stop and up for the principles of the university, which is Academic Freedom and shared governance due process transparency, read what is in your view, what went wrong at columbia over the last few weeks . I dont know if its over the last few weeks. Its maybe over the last few years, you have hundreds of students who are protesting. Objective we speaking four for a terrorist organization, theyre not holding up signs, calling for peace for the release of hostages. The end of hostilities, theyre basically holding up the banners and mouthing the slogans of hamas. Some of them, which have a clearly violent pedigree when they talk about the intifada. But let me ask you about that because youve classical liberal, youve written eloquently about how free speech involves speech that offense people. Is it not okay for people to suddenly not something i think any honore the stable agrees with, but if somebody were to say i agree with the goals of hamas, that is free speech or of course it is to be protected i support free speech. Okay. Theres, theres no question that should be the standard, including saying things that any of us might find objectionable or vile. I think part of the problem isnt so much the question of free speech. Its a question of Double Standards. And what i mean by that is if lets imagine that there were protests by a very aggressive a white students marching for White Supremacy in a Christian University somewhere in the middle of, of america, making a large percentage of black students on that campus feel profoundly unsafe and worried for their security. I dont think we would be looking at those white students and saying they also have free, free speech rights. So if the universitys one will adopt a freespeech standard, it needs to be consistent and i think thats part of the objection here. At harvard. Harvard saying they should adopt a consistent free speech. I think they absolutely should, they should lean in the direction of free speech provided there for common sense rules about time, place, and manner of protests, disruption, and conduct that is effectively intimidating. So it crosses the line from speech to conduct. I dont think for instance, there should be a hecklers veto what do you think of all that . Well they wont surprise you to know that i imagined that i think rather differently about this. First of all, theres an adder, matter of fact, which i have to correct people in the encampment, what we call the encampment. Thats the protesters at columbia. They have not shouted out slogans, Chanted Slogans in support of hamas or the Wanton Destruction of civilian lives on october 7. That is simply not the fact its a little upsetting, i think to everybody at columbia that the mainstream media, as well as the politicians, have confused things that are chanted outside columbias gates with things that the columbia protesters are saying because ive spent time in the encampment, i havent heard anything even remotely like that. There are things im sure that ball three of us would have some trouble with that are being chanted outside the gates. Columbia is not letting those people in when we come back, well dig deeper into the question of free speech versus hate speech. 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Listerine is five times more effective than plus ev reducing plaque above the gum line for a cleaner, healthier mouth this three, feel the world closed, captioning is brought to you by handsfree skechers, bobs for dogs, footwear. Its never been easier to put on your shoes and help pets and neat at the same time with new hansberry skechers, bobs for dog sports, and slip in and go and theyve already helped save over 2 million pets more now of a conversation about the crisis on american College Campuses with bruce robins, a professor at columbia and Bret Stephens columnist for the New York Times what is the difference between free speech and speech that intimidates . Making somebody uncomfortable . Again, like you i feel awkward mean, speech, you disagree with this meant to make you uncomfortable, but it can clearly cross the line into physical intimidation, harassment making people feel they can go to their classrooms or dorm. So how do you, how do you draw that line . Its difficult to do it dont think theres any easy, easy line to draw, but there was a photograph and again, i dont know exactly who the protester is. Maybe its an outsider, maybe its a columbia student appears to be in the quad columbia saying are carsons next targets alqassam as the military wing of hamas. And its pointing at a bunch of students were merely holding its really and american flags. Thats a call to kill them. Okay. Now, maybe in the wider sense of the term that may even be permissive constitutionally permissible speech. But i would say thats the kind of speech that a university should look very carefully at at allowing rather, i think it should be disk the loud when it goes into a sense of true threat, right . Then then youre talking about impermissible speech. So two things. First, about that photograph, do you agree that that went too far . I havent seen or heard anything like that around the encampment so 0. 1. So the the other point bread is making, which i think is fair, which is that universities have seen to le