Youre taking that with a little bit different. Whats your position now . Guest well, if i could go back briefly. A few years ago i had the honor of speaking at the getiesburg National Cemetery where the flag behind me is from the anniversary of the getiesburg address. I made a suggest sort of impor tuned people to consider contect liesing confederate monments. Making sure that there were alternative monments. And frankly Nothing Happened in the three subsequent years. Its not an easy thing to make occur. Its expensive, time consuming, requires consensus on text and methodology, and it didnt work. And since that time, other convullsive events have occurred most recently of course the killing of george floyd and the response has been directed at monments among other institutions that are deemed by many to be op pressive particularly confederate monments in the Public Square. And i did write an op ed recently during which i said that i think i was wrong. That weve had enough time, weve had a century for these statues of those who fought the United States of america on behalf of the perpuation of slavery. Weve had five, four years of them being in the Public Square in front of court houses communicating visually the messages of White Supremacy and the time has come to take them down. And that movement did not need me to spur it along. Its been happening bodes spontaneously which is not an easy thing to watch and also officially as mayors and governors take action that many people including me thought would never occur. Host back in 2017 in writing about this topic and you referenced that you wrote things like this. Lets indeed abandon nt thats not good enough now i suppose youre saying. Guest first the opportunity was there to engage historians to write the text. Monument avenue stood in all of its splendid all white glory for three more years. And, frankly, we had discussions at the lincoln forium particularly with the friend of mine of Howard University who described achingly what it was like for a young black woman to grow up in the shadow of monymentsd that suggested powerfuly to her that she was a second class citizen and that the law did not protect her. It protected people who were not people of color. So i think we lost the opportunity if that was going to be possible to add explanatory text, contextualization, context as you put it. There was an effort in richmond that people arent really talking about lately and that is a sculpture there are sefrl. The effort to put a sculpture of arthur ashe at the end of that array of confederate vips was really a bust because the statue in my view is not very good. It was only at the end of monument avenue away from the confederate monments and it aroused so much anger and hostility that it was painful and not worth the effort. Ut the sculpture to him had an eequestrian figure that was going to be placed if it hasnt already right near monument avenue that shows an African American or an african figure with dreadlocks racing through the wind to prevent war. And its an extraordinary piece and it would have been interesting if there was had there been an opportunity for them to be facing each other for a time then i dont think its to be and its really not what its about. Host you spent time at the metropolitan of art. Is there a tug of war between looking at these pieces of art and looking at these pieces as symbols . Guest sure. Im nonnot an eye cono clast at all although its interesting to know there are many pieces at the metropolitan museum that came and left their original sites. Statues of the egyptian female fairo was destroyed by the egyptians who wanted no memory of her and they were excavated. You know, ei dont knows later and sent to the met there are gargoyles that were lopped off the cathedral of noter dam in the reformation that has come to the met. E met is the place that ca scholarly views of now only created and by whom but why, who paid for them. Who desplayed them. What motivated their removals . And again this moment over public art is not new. And for those who have called and say this is unamerican to tear down history, i would remind them that 244 years ago this week during the after the first public reading of the declaration of independence in downtown new york, at the battery, the patriots were so excited to hear about the news that the first thing they did was haul down a big statue of king george 3. They smashed it to bits and used the lead of which it was made to make bullets to fight the revolution. This is not a new phenom in a. And its painful. The russians got rid of their stallance and len yins. Post war germany got rid of its nazi sculptors. It happens, and it happens when reckonings happy. And i think the american happening. I think the american recling of what version of history we promulgated and privilege weve communicated at art is at hand and i think we need to deal with it seriously. Host our guest with us until 9 00 if you want to ask him questions. If you support removing statues that weve talked about, if you oppose it, the numbers are on your screen. I suppose you get asked this a lot. Where does it stop . Guest well, its morphing a bit out of control and these kind of excesses in the summer when people are pent up and tired of being at home and looking for something to do with friends and allys is kind of understandable. But it can have tragic consequences. The des cration of staltus of general grant who did almost as much as lincoln to end slavery in america, winning the civil ar in essence, obtaining the surrender of robert e lee who was protecting the institution of slavery was a tragedy. The same period saw the destruction of a statue of a foreign born Union General named heg who had led wisconsin volunteers into battle for the union. So it can be indiscriminate whether its the Golden Gate Park or i question that new movement to tear down or take down adolph wymans statue of Abraham Lincoln at the university of wisconsin for a variety of reasons, thats failed to tell the entire picture about lincoln as the monumental figure. I think obviously and i hope we deal with during the show. We have the very complicated case of the emancipation memorial in washington, d. C. Dedicated by Frederick Douglas, paid for entirely by free African Americans in pennies and dollars, and dedicated in 176, a copy was made three years later and unveiled in boston. It was considered a triumph of celebrating freedom. But its imagery is offensive to many now and there is a huge debate going on about whether it should remain in public view or whether it should be taken to a museum where it can be context liesed for what it is. Host letting people see that right now, a picture. What do you think should be done . Guest its a tough one. Ive been waxed with pain about it. Its been said that Frederick Douglas made clear his disappointment with lincoln when he dedicated his speech. He actually gave a very complex address and did say that lincoln hoped and he hoped he would live forever. Its complicated because its based i think on two stories. Or one visual and one story. The visual is the symbol of the rising chains in slave. Once the symbol of abolition it always it was introduced in england in the 18th century and usually was accommodated by the caption am i not a man . And im sure thats what he had in mind when he chose that figure to be rising using the legal instrument of lincolns emancipation proclamation. The other episode that is referred to is the visit that Abraham Lincoln made a couple of weeks before his death to richmond, virginia, former capital of the confederacy, where he was greeted by African American workers who in essence were actually liberated by his arrival and by the union armys arrival. And they went to him in a wave and many knelt to him and called him their moses and liberater and he said you must not kneel to me that is not right. You must kneel only to zpwod. All that said, what do we make of it now . We see a kneeling unclad figure. And as my friend and his colleagues established, was a great expert on statry recently discovered, there was a letter that douglas wrote to the newspapers shortly after emancipation in which he regretted the enslaved person was unclothed and kneeling although he did. So what do we make of it . Let me make a comparison thats probably imprecise. If you ever allowed yourself to njoy black faced performers or mince trell singers 50 years ago and thought it was perfectly ok, its not ok. And it should never be shown again because it was degrading and perhaps we werent sensitive enough to understand that. This is kind of the mince trell show of emancipation memorial. It presents an African American as a figure who is being lifted by a great liberater which lincoln tried to do legally but that unclad figure would have to put on a uniform and fight in the army for his own freedom. Thats not what is shown in this memorial. So i would say time to take it from that square even though Frederick Douglas dedicated. Time to replace it with another Lincoln Monument there because it is sacred ground. And a time to put it in the museum and tell the very complicated story of the sculpture that was commissioned by African Americans but designed by white sculpture, introduced by the great African American leader of the 19th century but seems to have outlived its message. Host Harold Holzer joining us, professor at Public Policy institute. First call for you sir is from cleveland, ohio. I ler i was calling because o believe it keeps the pain in our hearts. Wonder why is it that were always, because i feel that 1812 e of the genesis where god told abraham they would be taken to a foreign land to serve them and they will be mistreat bid these people. And to this day they are mistreated by the people. The solidarity forever song keeps it in your heart to be against us. We dont mean harm. We just want peace. And we get attacked by the police. And the statue just shows about we need a master to educate ourselves. We dont. Because before desegregation was put in we had fathers, we were teaching ourselves, we had we contributed to this country so much. The pea nuts. How you got all these fiber optics. A lot and yet were attacked watching foreigners to our inner cities to come and cities with alcohol. Host youve made a lot of points there. Well let the professor comment. Guest well, its painful and deeply moving to hear expressions of pain that perhaps were not taken seriously enough soon enough. And if that pain is given expression in monments to people like Jefferson Davis and robert e. Lee and those wo fought to continue the subgation of people of color, i understand and i agree. But i just dont think Abraham Lincoln falls into that category as a patriarchle was not needed at his time. He was needed. Or the Southern States the slaveholding states would have created their own country which might have enshrined savory for decades to come. We would have been no position to fight International Wars for survival against world war ii. I dont even know if we would exist today either white or black or brown. So lincoln the legal instrument that lincoln crafted to begin the destruction of slavery was crucial. And i think it accomplished the preservation of the union and the end of slavery in america. As the caller was calling from cleveland. Cleveland soldiers and sailors monument in the civil war from which i once spoke has a really extraordinary acskping figure. There is a lincoln there but theres an African American there. The African American is not naked, not in a loin cloth and not in chains. Hes holding a rifle. Nd that is more than a nod but a tribute to the United States colored troops that with lincolns encouragement and legislation and the words of the emancipation were recruited into the army and in fact fought for their own freedom, fought to make the paper of the the paper docket rin of the emancipation into a reality. Host shane, maryland on with our guest. Caller good morning, sir. I find it concerning that right now were seeing the rampant blatant criminal destruction of american eye con graphy, which is supported by very local minority who praise the action of criminals. At best its malicious destruction of property. And it sends the message that its all right to take the law into your own hands if you dont like something. Now, time has taught us that those who fail to learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes. Destruction begets destruction, violence begets violence. How far will this go . Whats next . The des cration of southern graveyards of the people who voted for president s that may not be popular with some people today . Host well let our guest respond. Guest i share your concern that this is isnt the right way to do it. But when you say people who dont acknowledge history are doomed to repeat it what are we saying with the monumentalization of Jefferson Davis and stone wal jackson and jeb stewart in the former capital of the confederacy . Are we saying these guys existed so lets learn . Are we saying these guys were larger than life, heroic, they were right, the war wasnt about slavery which is part of the lost cause narrative it was all about tariffs and states rights and fighting federal encroachments and invasion. No, it wasnt. It was about slavery and these statues were built to remind people of color that white people have gotten through reconstruction and were back in control. The sculptors were built in richmond from the 1890s to the 1920s when the statement was being made that white premsy would last forever. I agree with you that it is occasionally getting out of hand. The columbus des crations or destructions just last night a columbus statue fell in baltimore. It didnt fall it was toppled and thrown into the water. I think thats painful because theres a much more complicated story to tell about columbus and theres the added complication that columbus regardless of what happened in the new world is a reigning hero for italian americans now. And it is difficult for the italian 34er7b community which has columbus days and columbus clubs and columbus foundations to accept the complication much less the removal of columbus as a symbol. Im speaking from new york where there is a towering in Columbus Circle right in front of the Trump International hotel where the statue of Christopher Columbus on the top. And i dont think thats going to come down any time soon but the situation is not helped when President Trump says in a july fourth columbus discovered america. A, as if it needed to be discovered even though there were indiginous People Living here. And b that it was america. It was the americas but he never set foot in mainland america. So this over simplification has swung the pendulum in a ridiculous fashion to a white centric version of history and now it may have to swing back violently before it centers again. I dont believe statues should be torn down by demonstrators, i dont think i think they should be considered and i like what governor is doing in virginia what the mayor of andrew did in removing jackson and lets remember mayor land rue of new orleans who back in 2017 or 2018 removed new orleans statues of robert e. Lee and beauregard and Jefferson Davis. And a statue which celebrated the liberty placed uprising. And what was that . That was an effort by a white mob to kill a legally elected integrated State Government and reassert dick torl all white control over louisiana. It was a race riot. And why we would have not looked more carefully and acknowledged that was a hideous tribute is a painful part of how we just kind of blythely accepted statry because its pretty and because it makes a nice impact on the citiescape. Its not enough. Its time for reexamination. But i absolutely agree with the caller, not by groups in the dead of night by people who are considering it, communities, elected officials, and in federal parts the federal government. Host because you just said that ill take you back to 2017 again because you talked about the lee statue in richmond. You go on to say but sacrificing ideal is a maul price to pay for preserving good art. Guest didnt i recant that . But thats ok. I have to live with it. Host well in context. Guest one of the problems is the museum of the confederacy in richmond said we dont want it. Its too hard to cleep, those ceilings are too low. When i talk about perspective thats important. Written a book about the sculpture Daniel Chester french who used to work on his sculptors on a hill so that he could run down the hill and look up at the sculptors the way they would look on pedestals. You cant bring these sculptures to eye levels without making them look like cartoons. Thats sort of the genius of these artists. Lee is the nicest i think of the richmond monument avenue statues. Its the earliest, its by a french sculpture. But i dont think it will be destroyed. I think it will be placed somewhere and the Jefferson Davis that was toppled which gain i dont like, spontaneous destructiveness, was a pretty terrible statue and i dont think that would have ended up anywhere, frankly. But again these statues may not be able to survive in the art for arts sake mode because of the repressive attitudes and control that they have come to embody for many more people than i imagined when i wrote ind of demribly in 2017. Host good morning. Caller im sitting here my kids went to winberg high school and lindberg had a secret family and we still have that going on. Ut besides this, these statues ar