Transcripts For CSPAN Hearing 20240704

The Senate Committee on Health Education labor and pin hits will come to order. This has been a shortened week so i think youre going to see all over the place i think you will see senators drifting in and out. I want to thank all of our panelists for being with us. This morning, we are going to be talking about an issue that is very rarely discussed in the halls of senate. That is the need to reduce the standard work week in the United States. In fact, the last time as we understand it the senate held a hearing on the subject was in the year 1955. So i think maybe the time is now to renew that discussion. At that hearing, the senate heard at that point the organizations and roofers,rkers regarded as one of the great labor leaders of his time. This is what he said at that time. He said, we fully realize the potential benefits of automation are great. If properly handled, if only a fraction of what technologists promise for the future is true, within a very few years, automation can andr day work we. The reduction of the work week to 35 or 30 hours in the coming decades can be an important shock absorber during the transition to the widespread use of automation. Py in 1886, 1 of the planks was to establish an eight hour work day, eight hours work, eight hours for rest, eight hours for what you will. That was back in 1886. Americans of that era are sick and tired of working 12 hour days for six or seven days a week with very little time for rest, relaxation or quality time with their families. They went out on strike, they organize, they petitioned the government, and they achieved real result after decades of struggle. In 1916, psiegislation into law to establish an eight hour work day for railroad workers. Six years later, the Ford Motor Company became one of the first major employers in america to establish a five Day Work Week for autoworkers. Heres something i believe that not know. Le inur in 1933, the United States Senate Overwhelmingly passed legislation to establish a 30 hour work week by a vote of 5330. That■c was 1933. While that legislation ultimately failed as a result of a decision from corporate america, a few years later, presiden Delano Roosevelt signed the fair labor standards act into law and a 40 hour workweek was established in 1940, my friends, in 1940. Unbelievably, 84 years later, despite massive growth in Worker Technology in worker productivity, millions of workers are working longer hours for low wages. I hope people hear this because this is not an issue we talk about enough. Today in 28. 5 million americans, 18 of our workforce im in now worked over 60 hours a week, and 40 of employees in least 50 hours a week. We were talking about a four hour work week 80 years ago and thats what people today, despite the explosion of technology, working today. The sad reality i that americans now work more hours than the people of any other wealthy nation. We will talk about what that ry people. In 2022 in the United States and i hope people hear this, logged 204 more hours per year than employees in japan. 279 moran workers in the United Kingdom and 470 more hours than workers in germany. Despite th the average worker in america makes almost 50 a week less then he or she did 50 years ago after adjusting for inflation. No let that sink in for a moment. Think about all of the extraordinary changes in technology that we have seen over the last 50 years. Computers, robotics, artificial inteigence, d the huge■■ increase in worker productivity that has been achieved during that time. In factories and warehouses, ■robots and sophisticated machinery did not exist then or were only used in primitive forms. There were no checkout counters that utilized barcodes. As a result of the extraordinary technological transformations th we have syears, american worw over 400 more productive than they the 1940s. Extraordinary. Technology has made working people far more productive, and what has been the result of allr working people . Almost all of the economic gains of that technological■n■n transformation have gone straight to the top while wages for workers have remained stagnant or even worse. Ceos today are making 350 times as much as their average employees, workers throughout the country are seeing their famiif forced to spend more and more time at work, and missing their kids birthday parties, little league, baseball games and just the time they need with their families. And what stresses them out even further is that afterat work, my of them still are living paychecktopaycheck and cannot take care of their basic needs. At a moment in history when Artificial Intelligence and robotics, and i hope we all understand the jobs that people haveoday aint going to be there in many cases in 15 years. The economy is going to be transformedlligence and robotic. The question we are asking today is a Pretty Simple question, do we continue the trend that technology only benefits the people on top, or do we demand that these transformational changes benefit working people, and one of the benefits must be a lower wor week, 32 hour workweek. This is not a radical idea. Friends, the seventh largest economy in the world, has a 35 hour work week and is considering a 32 hour workweek. Norway and denmark are working about 37 hours and belgium has already adopted a four Day Work Week. What we are going to hear work week. What we are going to hear today is there are companies all over our country and all over the world that have adopted the 40 hour work week. You know what they found . They found that pruc workers were able to focus on their work. They were happy to go to work. ■ ssue that we are talking about today is of enormous importance. Full benefits and the exploding technology. The wealthiest people who are doing phenomenally well or working people who are falling behind. With that, let me give the mic over to senator cassidy. A 32 hour workweek with no loss in pay, ■my staff has volunteered to be the test case for that. Who wouldnt want it . No loss of pay but you work a lot less but in reality there is no free lunch. Workers would be the one who pay, not get paid extra. The government mandatinghour wog businesses to increase pay at least an extra . 25 per hour would frankly destroy some employers. They would ship those jobs or they would automate to replace those workers for whom they have an increased expense. Or they would dramatically increase prices to make them stay afloat. We talked about the biden economics leading to inflation. This would be napalm upon the fire of inflation. If this policy is implemented, it would threaten millions of Small Businesses operating on a razor thin margin because they are unable to find enough workers. Now theyve got the same workers but only for thrd they have to e more. In fact, there is even incentive for them to dip down so they make everybody parttime and then they dont have to pay certain penalties or certain requirements which are required for full time. If a business wants to voluntarily try a 32 hour workweek for themselves, several laws allow it. We dont have to mandate it. We will hear today from a business that does that. So if an employer things it is good for their business, go for it. But i will note that the chair has not done that with his staff. Why . Because there is a certain continuity of the work. Thats just basic. Now the Business Needs to maintain a 40 hour workweek to remain competitive, not just locally, but globally. Mandated 32 hour workweek would be catastrophic. Government should not be in a business of undermining theiempr doors open with unreasonable and perhaps unconstitutional mandates. ■the chair frequently says the United States is the wealthiest nation in the world. We are. How did we achieve it . American workers. Second tnowe dont have people o in china working 80 hours a week, but we have that balance. This disrupts that balance. 4and we wont maintain the stats of being the worlds wealthiest nation if we need cap the economy will somethingorts to be American Worker, but will lead to shoring the workforce. He country has a mandatory 32 hour workweek. When japan shortened its workweek from 46 to 40 hours, oeconomic output plummeted 20 . Belgium has a four Day Work Week but those workers work within those four days. Ai and other technologies have the potential to dramatically increase economic productivityia bipartisan hearing on the potential impact of ai on the american economy. If we have this, i a ecstatic. You are nodding your head yes. We need to explore it. My Office Published paper last s committee should approach ai and the impacts upon health, education, and labor. And we are working on next steps based on that feedback. But a momandpop restaurant is not really seeing increased uctivity fro ai. They are having trouble finding enough people to fill shifts, and if we were car them to pay for a 40 hour workweek for 32 hours of work, how will it turn out for that momandpop restaurant . Hospital staffingblic health. Why are we passing along to exacerbate that shortage . Rkweek and it didnt happen. I dont think the federal government should mandate it to placate a Democratic Political base. Frkly seems and exercise to help the uaw lay the groundwork for furniture future negotiations. They should discuss it at the bargaining table. Either way, i apologize if this hearing gives anyone false hope, but a week is bad policy. Not even democrats unanimously support this. Bu an understanding where the biden is heading. They are up for a tough and they may be willing to use executive authority to do which actually has bipartisan opposition. There has been a concerning pattern from democrats in prioritizing to help politically connected unions at the expense of the workers and businesses themselves. Recently the Biden Administration proposed a new overtime rule dramatically increasing overtime pay threshold by 55 . That will relt in layoffs and it will result in more inflation. The Biden Administration released a new joint employer rule threatening the viability of the franchise model that employs over 9 million workers and has empowered people who had a dream of becoming a Small Business person to become a the department labors new independent contractor rule jeopardizes the ability of 27 million americans work as independent contractors, with the flex ability to pick their own hours and work for multiple businesses, but their independence and protection from forced unionization has made restricting this freedom a top priority. These policies hurt the American Worker and contribute to inflation. As i said, i wouldve been excited to work with the chair on a hearing to discuss the impacts of ai and the new chnologies in our jurisdiction. There is very strong bipartisan interest in examining this issue, but we are working instead upon a bill which will never Pass Congress and will be detrimental for American Workersen. Sanders we thank ale panelist for being with us today. We will begin with the International President of the united automobile workers. He is a 29 year member o1f uawn electrician and led the uaw in negotiating a story contract which substantially waged raised wages and benefits for the workers of that union. Thanks for being with us. Good morning, cha members of the committee. Im here to talk about one of the most important issues to any union leader, any workingclass person, any us senator, any human being. And that is our time. As president of the united auto workers, i represent 400,000 working class people across industries, and 600,000 retirees. And i know when my members look back on their lives, they never say i wish i had worked more. when people reach the end of their lives, they never say i wish ide money. what they wish for is they wish they had more time. Thats what work does. We are time, and when we were, we are sacrificing time with other people, friends, and other things we wish to do. But time, like every Precious Resource in our society, is not given freely to the working class. We have seen the productivity of our society skyrocket. With the advce one market is now doing what 12 workers used to do. More profit can be squeezed out of every hour, every minute, every second. There was a time when this phenomenon was supposed to lead to workers getting their time back. Getting some of their lives back. Nearly 100 years ago, the economist John Maynard Keynes spoke of the future of workers time. His worry was that with all the gains in productivity, we wouldnt know what to do wit he predicted a 15hour work week. 100 years ago. In my own union, i go back into our archives and read of the fight for the 30hour week, an idea that was alive and well for back in the 1930s and 1940s. But today deep into the 21st , century, we find these ideas unimaginable. ■instead, we find workers workig longer hours. We have workers working seven the are workers, not union, union or not, working multiple jobs, they are leaving to work and scraping to get by in living paychecktopaycheck. We find workers today later in their working deep into their 60s, 70s, and 80s because they cannot afford to retire. And we find the associated deaths of despair from addiction and suicide, of people who dont feel a life of endless, hopeless work is a life worth living. As a consequence of advances in technology, workers have been sacrificed at the altar of greed and theyve been stripped of their dignity. We have a Mental Health crisis we talked about a lot in this country, but we never talk about thethere have been studies done, increases in stress from working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, your sacrifice of family pursue, is because of increasing cortisol levels which lead to heart disease, cancer, strokes. Giveall those facts, if someone is lucky enough to get to retire, typically they have worked themselves to death their entire life, they face replacements, hip replacements, shoulder surgeries and the rest of their lives figuring out how they will survive. Itd to say that in 1933, the u. S. Senate passed legislation to establish a 30 hour work week, but due to intense corporate opposition that legislation failed. But in 1940, residt franklin Delano Roosevelt signed the fair labor standards act establishing the 40 hour workweek. 84 years ago 40 hour week was established. Since then, weve had a 400 increase in productivity, but nothing has changed. Why in our Victory Campaign we had our stand up strike, we raised the flagor 32 hour workweek. This is a workingclass issue and thats why 75 of americans in her contract right stood with us in that fight because they are all living the same reality. Who is going toepidemic of livey work . Are the employees going to act . Will congress a . How can workingclass people take back their lives and take back their time . Many in this room will say nt to work, or workingclass people are lazy. But the truth is, workingclass people arent lazy, they are fed up. They are with being left behind and stripped of dignity as wealth and equality inequality control. They are fed up that in america, three families have as much wealth as the bottom 50 oion. That is criminal. America is better than this. I want tois. I agree there is an epidemic in this country a people who dont want to work. People who cant be bothered to get up every day and contribute to our society. But instead want to freeload off the labor of others. But those are not bluecollar people. Gclass people. Its a group of people who are never talked about for how little they actually work and produce and how little they contribute to humanity. The peop i about are the wall street freeloaders, the masters of passive income. Those who profit off the labor of others world, while those whe this country run, the people who build the products, ctr the labor have less and less times for themselves, their families, and for their lives. So our reunion will continue to fight for the rights of people to take back their lives and take back their time and we ask you to stand up with the American Workers and support us in that mission. Thank you. Sen. Sanders are next witness is an at boston college. She is a lead researcher for four day week global trials of companies instituting four day weeks with five days pay. She has been researching work time since the authoofbestselle overworked american. Thank you for being with us. Thank you, good morning, im honored to have this opportunity to support the 32 hour work week act. We are here today because for 84 6treduction in the standard workweek. Since 1950, the productivity of the American Worker has risen to 400 , yet fulltime employee still logged an average of 41. 9 hours a week. Annual hours even rose in the 1990s and have barely changed since then. These trends depart from the steady reduction in hours between 1870 in world war ii and from trends in other wealthy countries. The average american is on the job 400 more hours a year than in germany, 200 more than in and the u. K. And more than the average japanese. This is despite the u. S. Historically being the Global Leader inreduction in the worlds first fiveday week country. This was the situation when the with it extraordinary levels of stress and burnout, resignation and historically high jo in response, an increasing number of employees are shifting to a water day, 32 are week with no reduction in pay. I was asked to lead resear on their experiences and in collaboration with an ngo called for date week global. They include all sectors, healthare ■care, momandpop nts, manufacturing and construction, retail, nonprofits, it, finance, andpn a Police Department in golden, colorado. In the u. S. , 78 percent of these are Small Businesses with 50 or fewer employees, which is similar to the u. S. Economy. Our results have been extremely positive for bothwe have 26 wels for more than 3600 employees, every ■1rce which regters improvement from baseline to the end of the trial. Nearly 60 of employees experienced better workfamily balance, anxiety, sleep problems, fatigue, physical and Mental Health improved for 40 of workers. 69 of employees have lower burnout scores. It is fins tell us the lifecha. One person reports that had it not been for the pilot, i wouldnt have had the time or the availability to get medical appotments and procedures which ultimately led to the Early Detection of something that mightve proved fatal. That something was cancer. An increase in their productivity over the trial. They are more energized, focused, and capable, partly as a result of organizatnwide changes in work culture and processes. In response to methodological criticism, i will just say heret across time, across place, and industry and contain a large number of variables to rule out alternative explanations. For employers, the most important number is 91 . Ats the fraction of companies who have continued with a four day week after at least one full year. In the u. S. Ande back to a five day schedule. Their performance metrics reveal why. Resignation spell 22 , absenteeism decline 39 , revenue increased an average of 30 . Some Companies Report that quality of service improved. After losing 50 of their inpatient Nurse Leaders during the first two pandemic years, Temple University hospital gave them a four day week. Patient outcomes improved and voluntary tif the u. S. Adopts ay week, 32 hour week, it is likely that hourly productivity will rise. That has been the experience of both workers and management in our trials. It has historically what scholars have concluded from past reductions in worktime and it of course wealth wh inteational comparisons come the countries with the highest levels of per our productivity are those with the shortest working hours. I began rhyme remarks by referencing our fourfold increase in productivity. The fact that so little of that productivity increase has been put toward reducing■ hours has left American Workers suffering from burnout and stress with families in special jeopardy. The pandemic exacerbated this preexisting problem. Given the current robust rates of u. S. Productivity growth, the promise further large increases from Artificial Intelligence and the fact that over the last 84 years the strdis now time for a 32 hour week. Thank you. Sen. Sanders thank you very much. Oune lehman, chief Strategy Officer at kickstarter and cofounder of a rofit. He successfully introduced the four Day Work Week at his company in 2022 and supports employers, unions and makers advancing the 32 hour work week. Thanks for being with us. Good morning. As they6 Strategy Officer at kickstarter, i bring a unique perspective to this panel, having input minute and experienced a four Day Work Week in our country of 118 employees. Our journey began during the pandemic, a period that completely upended trational work norms and demonstrated how ingrained and potentially outdated some of our assumptions are around work. The pandemic alsothe time we har families and loved ones is the most valuable thing that we have. Kickstarter is a data driven compan driven by repeated studies and Success Stories demonstrating that a four Day Work Week benefit both businesses and employ we also recognize some common sense around how a four Day Work Week could work. Hours worked as a factor in productivity but is not determinate. Efficiency, focus, and Employee Retention are all equally or more critical. People are workers are already finding ways to rest at work. Theyre surfing the internet, theyre just slowing down, they are stepping away just to get the energy t day. I would rather just give people back their time so they can properly rest. In april 2022, we initiated a sixmonth pilot. Our goal was to maintain or improve overall productivity. To do that, the bargain we made with our employees was simple. They would get back an extra day every week, retaining the same salary and benefits and in exchange, we expected them to manage their time effectively,k rested and ready to go, and get the job done. We were not going to scale back our amb■to accommodate the four Day Work Week. The result of our pilot were clear. Our goal achievement rate soared from 95 . Customer response times, satisfaction rating stayed the same. Employee retention ireased from 82 to 98 . All while reducing average weekly working hours by nine hours a week for each employee. ■■m■dwe made the decision to stk with the four Day Work Week and have kept it for two years. The mostmpact to our employees. In just two years, weve been able to return new nearly 10,000 days, more than 27 years. Those are years of spending time with family and their children, volunteering in their communities, learning new skills, and taking care of their health. The value of that time is pricelsnd ultimately has been the greatest outcome of our transition to a four Day Work Week. The fiveday workweek was established 84 years ago in the u. S. Critics back then also predicted doom. They worried that a week and would destroy the american economy. Instead helped launch just to the front of a global pack. Entire industries, the american middleclass became the envy of the world and the week and became a time when families and communities came together. With ai looming on the horizon, its time for a muchneeded update. The studies echo what we learned at kickstarter, that when piloted, the four Day Work Week works. All 35 north American Companies that piloted the four date workweek with us in 2022 have kept it. If didnt work, forprofit companies would abandon it. You dont need theories or advanced data. You just need to see that the companies that this tend to stick with it. This is not just tech companies, these are manufacturing companies, Health Care Facilities and pleas to perms that are making this transition. It can and must benefit all workers in our society. Thats why the bill introduced by the chairman is so important. It would ensure that we are defining a new standard for weekly that benefits all, not just the most privilege. With the opportunity we have now, its important to ensure all American Workers and our society reap the dividends. The four Day Work Week is an issue backed by data that americans of all stripes in poll after pollit affords the opporto deliver a boost to our economy and happiness to every American Worker, to strengthen American Families and communities. The original weekends did just that, and its time to do it again. Sen. Ders center cassidy, do you want to introduce your witnesses . A professor of the practice of data science in st. Louis, she is a senior fellow at Harvard University and m. I. T. Researcher and statistician shos featur of publications. What is most interesting is that she studied at the cordon bleu. Have someone who knows how to cook something more than pancakes. We are pleased to have you. Chairman sanders, dr. Cassidy, thank you so much for having me here today. I am a statistician and weve heard a lot of statistics thrown around. So im here to make some sense analyzing them property. Proponents of the 32 hour workweek often point to stattiat suggest shorter work weeks can lead to increased productivity and improved employee wellbeing. The argument is making broad claims based upon week and since this tickly statistically flawed data sets. There are significant flaws and limitations. It take a brief look at some of the studies to understand the statistical flaws and shed significant and potentially insurmountable doubt on the proposal for sustainability in the American Work economy. Touting the studies discuss the stress or happiness levels of workers who work less time. Inevitably, over the shortin tht is not inconceivable to imagine that having happiness levels increase. The ere does the pendulum end at no work . Statistical studies, longterm statistical studies have shown us that happiness does not increase over time, it goes back to the same level. For example,fter mandatory reduction of hours saw a return to the same level of happiness after seven years. See those same employees really stressed out, just see what happens when their employers lay them off to hire parttime workers instead or have to close their doors because they cannot make enough revenue. Another major flaw in the studies is the selfselection bias. For example, the companies that choose to participate in some of the studies like the four day week global study areompanies whose work tends to be able to be adapted to a shorter workweek already, who can remove wasted hours. Are able to adapt to shorter work weeks that tend to participate, cutting out they say extraneou meetings, coffee breaks, having more independent work im going to zoom. However, over 70 71 economy is g with their hands. They dont necessarily have extraneous meetings or to cut out. Cannot apply this type of cutting of hours across the entire economy. Also given the types of companies that are potentially capable of cutting their workweek, we could see a divide of the rich having more time and the poor having to take on three parttime jobs in order to pay the bills. We also potential disadvantaged Older Workers who cannot necessarily physically do the same amount of work in a shorter time. This happened to the great detriment of that population during the great depression. In terms of increase productivity by shortening the week, the statistics just arent there and there are specific shutting studies thathow opposite. Economic output fell by 20 . Another largely touted study in iceland had a Pilot Program cutting the workweek by hours f. The results were blasted all over the headlines as an overwhelming success. What isorted on is that the icelandic government or taxpayers have to shell out almost 30 million extra a year to higher more healthcare workers because of this experiment. In spain where there is a Pilot Program, the companies that participate get■ . Access to a multimillion dollar Government Bond in order to participate. Microsoft tested a four Day Work Week by shutting down its japan office every frig÷day for e of. The statistical claim is that this resulted in a 40 increase in productivity. Correlation is not necessarily causation. Productivity increased over a very short period of time during a low productivity month when overall productivity was already at a 75 year low. There is no statisticalde meritf a 32 hour workweek. In fact, there is clear evidence against it. If it works for some companies in some sectors, that is great. But it cannot be applied to all sectors. Thank you. Next is mr. Roger king, implement counsel at the Hr Policy Association which represents the chief human resoce largest businesses. He is highly regarded as a Labor Relations attorney, spending eight law school as a council for this committee. He tell me he was a peer with angus king, one of our coll and he worked with a very young Teddy Kennedy and others. Thanks for being here, mr. King. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman, dr. Cassidy, memos of the committee. It is indeed a distinct honor to come back before this committee again. I had great experiences here working with fritz mondale, ted kennedy, and angus king and i used to go out for an adult beveragethis committee. So thank you again for having me back. I am appearing here on behalf of the Hr Policy Association. We represent approximately 10 of the private Sector Workers in this country who are corporate members. I like to start the discussion about mandating 32 hours, over eight hours, over 12 hours, these are concepts that have consequences. This proposal only works if you reduce eight hours of work week and have the worrs havth same level of productivity that they had at 40 hours. It just doesnt work in many industries. It doesnt work economically, it doesnt work operationally. What we have is what i call a productivity gap where we have work that is not yet getting done for the 32 hour workweek situation. Feel that productivity gap . As you mention, senator cassidy, the inflationary impact of this of proposal is considerable. I noted this week that the u. S. Bureau of labor statistics said that we have inflation at■l 3. 2, picked up from january. Our core inflation is 3. 8 or more. The 2 target rate for the feds. This is bad policy as a results to the consumer. What do i mean by that . If you cant fill the productivity gap by cutting back hours are making some adjustment to your business, you pass on addedyou have to pay for it som. The other important point id is the most important thing we are hearing from workers today. They want as much flexibility as possible, as to how, when, and where they perform work. The proposal of the chairman, in all due going to interfere with that flexibility. Workers today want to be able to spend more time with their families. With the witness on that point. They also want to select when, where, and how they work. Fair labor standards act, and has been mentioned already numerous times. If you go back and look at the history of the new deal and why president Franklin Roosevelt was an issue in this proposal, it was to increase the number of jobs in the country. The was clear, that proposal was put in place by the congress to increase the number of americans who come to the workplace. What we are seeing today in the proposal of the chairman creates a real problem for our country. We already have a tremendous shortage oft have enough workers today. This proposal for Many Employers will cause even further worker shortages. The flexibility factor is a problem. We do command the chairman and for having hearing on the impact of ai, it is considerable. Senator cassidy, your suggestion forwelcome that. Theres no question ai can increase productivity. And there is no question that increased wealth can occur. Its what i call the ai dividend wealth. And we agree that workers and employal that wealth. But the way to go about that is let the market determine that distribution of wealth. If the union can negotiate a 32 hour workweek, so be it. If he can convince the autoworker companies in this country to do it, so be it. But let the market determine how going to occur. N of wealth finally, as an overall point, we commend the committee are starting a discussion about the fair is one of the most litigated statutes in the country. Chairman, youre absolutely correct, we need to reexamine it, the amount occurs regardingr labor standards act is way over the top. We need to address more clarity in the statute. Ive listed in my testimony a number of problems with the 32 hour workweek. I would close with this comment, i just saw the senators bill last night, and it is even more extreme than i had thought we were going to be discussing to the requirement to pay overtime over eight hours will be a significant economic adverse impa on ma companies, and the requirement to pay double over 12 hours, i think the only state in the country that does that is califofrom our perspects quite extreme. One last point on example just to bring thisployers in this coy generally employ registered nurses for three 12 hour shifts. They have gone to three workdays, but they are 12 hour shifts, and that works, by and large. This proposal wouldbetween that, four additional hours of overtime. In addition it would require overtime over eight. A very negative impact on the Health Care Community in this country and cause Health Care Expenses to go up. The solution for the Health Care Community is to get more nurses, more workers into the employment stream, not to impose strict standards that will cripple employers and cause incremental cost. Thank you very much. Sen. Sanders thank you very much to all the panelists. Let me just briefly respond to mr. Kings statement about letting the market decide who benefits from a transition to advanced technology. Forthe market has done just that, and the result has been there has been a 50 trillion transfer of wealth from the bott 1 . So after those 50 years, there are millions of workers today who are worse off, but we have more income at wealth inequality than weve ever had in the history of the country. So i am not quite in favor of letting the market decide. Questioning. Not to offend in terms of the time, because we only have a few members here and it is an important subject. I dont want to talk about statistics, weve heard a lot of statistics. You have been with the union for over three decades, as president youve met thousands of workers and thousands of retirees. Tell the American People what its like to work on a factory floor, in some cases i learned this recently, there are people today in america who are working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, unbelievable. But talk about the impact on the life of a worker mentally, physically, who is doing the hard work day after day, year after year. What happens to that i find iroe statements ive listened to, but the typical life of a factory worker, and this is union or not, it axley works for nonunion because they have less rules that govern the workplace. Typically many typical schedules and manufacturing are 12 hours y are seven days a week. A lot of these places run around the clock. When youre standing on concrete floors 12 hours stevan seven days a week year after year, theres a lot of wear and tear on a persons body. As i people when they age, they end up in their older working years come in up getting near replacements, hip ts, shoulder surgeries. I just find irony in some of this, mentally the stress of working seven days a week, 12 hours a day, when you dont get to see your kids, you dont get to go home and have dinner with your kids, you dont get to make sure they are getting their homework done or spend quality time with family. Even if you dont have a family, if you have quality time for yourself. Something sacrificed you are working 12 hours a day, either sleep or time with family, Something Else is sacrificed. We only have so much time in the day. I find irony in some of the comments made by mr. King as far ashei dont believe we have a shortage of workers in this country. I think covid made people wake up and realizehat is important in life, its not working for 12 an hour at 12 hours a day and multiple jobs just to get by. The shortage of workers we s dont believe is a shortage, i believe its the fact that people woke up and decided im not going to leave my home for 12 an hour when i can ens. And also going back to letting the market determine this, its in hr standard talking point about passing costs onto to the consumer. Ive witnessed inflation last four years that wasn by workers, it wasnt caused it was caused by, two words, corporate greed. It is Consumer Price gouging. Weve got to get focused on the reality here. Sen. Sanders thank we are the wealthiest country in the history of the world, and yet we have people who are stressed, yet we are working longer hours as i understd then any other wealthy nation. How doesha the reason for the ls in this country have to do with the kinds of things weve been talking here today, and the fact worker has not had enough power in the market to reduce hours. But there are other aspects as well. One of the things we know from economic studies is that when inequality increases, so do working hours. So the rise in inequality in the United States earlier, is one of the primary causes of longer working hours in the United States. Five. From your perspective, this is not just theoretical. You have implemented it. Talk a little bit about the impact it has had some of the tran in your company, the impact that it has had on the workers there. Have been told that this is one of the most impactful things they have experienced in their lives because a lot othable to e with their kids. They are learning new skills. Someone who works for me learn how to use ai on his days off and is mthey are learning new ss that are not related to work. They are just participating in communities and volunteering. Senator sanders our workers more focused when they come back . Yes. Workers are much more focused. They are better rested. They are dedicated to the task at hand in a different way, and teams Stay Together longer. Theof the organization is much more robust because you are not bringing people out. You are not having to deal with turnover costs. Senator sanders talk about costs to businesses is a lot of turnover and having to train new workers. What do you think the impact of a 32 hour workweek would be on it was shocking how much it changed turnover and what impact that had on our productivity. We rarely lost an employee in the last two years. That means people have longer tenure. We dont deal with hiring. The costs of hiring, the time of riour goals dont get people want to work. The notion thati know, americans are lazy, that some people seem to have, its inaccurate. People want to work in a way that its balanced with the rest of their lives and they will stay in those jobs longer if the job is balanced with the rest of their lives. Senator sanders thanks very much. Senator cassidy . I yield to senator braun. Thank you before i got here, 37 years spent running an enterprise that would encompassi that scrappy navigation of how hard it is when you are signing the front side of a paycheck to get a little business to ever t beyond that. As we grew into a regional and then national company, we have had discussions before. I am a proponent of high wages and good benefits. I h where we want to be able to negotiate and bargain but there is such a big difference in terms of that dynamic■ with mandates. That would never enable most of what comprises would be Small Businesses, mainstream ones to be in a position to where they would have to live with some type of homogenous aroach to maybe even what we are talking about and i think even for most Business Owners, if they can, they are going to weave that what they are able to offer their employees. And we have had the conversation. Where they have cd the market, i think there is a legitimate discussion of how you spreadbetween employees and pubc companies and a lot of times, professional management, that would seem to, you know, rake in levels of pay that i never thought were possible. What i want to get back to is how i do with trying to do anything from this place that would impose uponthere to whert think they could survive. I think that it is a legitimate issue toalk about voluntarily and if you are good at what you do, and you are going to keep employees, you will want to weave it in. It is a legitimate issue to bargain■ for at that highest level of large workforces. That is as far as you can go. Most businesses would not be like yours, mr. Leeland. He would not be in business if you are not on six days a week for almost any Retail Business i am aware of including my wifes years. Ss in ourow it just would not work. Keep that in mind. I want to start with this particular question. I want to focus on how this would work and with Small Businesses. I am not worried about big co generally are going to land on their feet anyway and i believe they ought to be negotiated with for all the things you might do to improve. But what about mainstreet and Small Business . We will start with you. part me. Sorry. Have gotten there at this point. I think its really important to note that so many of these studies that have been done in these pilots that haveho thingss selfselection. These companies are choosing to be part of this. Able to cut out extraneous meetings and able to shorten coffee breaks. They are able to go to remote meetings for something it is. I never heard of anything you just mentioned in a Small Business. That just is not there. We try and do it so we dont run nal question for mr. Leeland. Mr. King, would you weigh in on that . Good to see you again, senator. This doesnt work for Small Business, for any type of business. If you cant measure productivity correctly and have that productivity gap satisfied, the proposal that the chairman is putting in legislation today would require overtime,t overre. It would require overtime over 32. It would require overtime doubletime, over 12. So a small Business Needs to employees have family obligations in their committee. They Employer Needs them sometimes more than any, sometimes less and you kw from your business. The bill we are talking about here today interferes with that flex ability. It just is not sound policy. Mr. Leeland, would you agree that your business has certain characteristics that probably made it securely or to you being able to do that or do you honestly believe that would be transferable into the multitude of business, eecially out on main street . Our business has characteristics that are not unique but lend themselv 5n a four Day Work Week. However, the pilots that dr. Sure has worked on show that this is possible across multiple industries. It looks different. The transformation looks different but we have seen manufacturing, construction, health care, Police Departments all do this successfully. Thank you. Thank you. Senator murphy. Thank you very much, mr. Chairman. I think this is a really regardless of where you stand on this issue and i think the fundamental question he at we are asking is where has all this wealth gone that has been gathered in this economy from these massive increases in productivity . If it hasnt been going to workers . If the uaw and other unions have to fight tooth and nail just to be able to i will tell you something we have not talked about yet. A lot of that money is going to trusnd a lot of that money is going into inherited wealth. And at some point, you know, we should have a conversation about a committee and as a congress. Here is a stunning piece of data. For the first time last year, the majority of wealth for new billionaires these were people who became billionaires in 2023 came not from their work but through inheritance. It is the First Time Ever that that has happened. 1000 billionaires are expected down 5. 2 trillion worth of wealth to their heirs in the next 20 years. Andmoney isnt going to the workers, it is at least being recycled back into the economy. It is just not true. A lot of that money is being passed down to kids who, you know, in previous ages, would not have been able to enjoy that level of benefit from their parents success. I wanted to talk to you just a little bit about leisure time. You have talked about this already. You really importantly talk about the importance that your faith plays in the wor■tk that u do in your life. This is a pretty wild thing happening in america today. 2070 of ameri belong to a religious institution, but today, that number is 50 . This has been a pretty precipitous decline inity or wif americans to go to church or to a religious institution on a regular basis and i think that has but there are a lot of reasons for that. One of them is that americans just have less free time. Wh you h hours to get the same standard of living for your family that 40 hours would have gotten you a few decadesyou dont have time to go to wednesday night bible study. You might not have the ability to even attend Church Services onyou can talk about church if u want or if you dont want, but it is just true that some the leisure time activities, some of the institutions that americans found value and meaning in our less accessible when ywork thes. I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I mean, you know, things we h the 32 hour workweek when we put that in our contract talks was the fact that we wanted to create worklife bbecause its js country, we are the most productive i mean, sadly, i say, not proudly, we are the most productive nation in the world which means our people are working more and more hours with less and less people and something has got you know, this worklife balance. When you are working multiple jobs to live paychecktopaycys a week, 12 hours a day, Something Else is sacrificed in that. And that is what ends up happening. You have to sacrifice, you know, the ability to go to church, Something Else to do on a when you have not slept all week and spend the whole day sleeping. That is the reality a lot of workers face on some of the schedules they work. And younow, the thing to me that i think i hear all this we have heard my whole life out good for business is good for people, trickledown economics and all those type things but to me, we have to focus i do believe congress has ann on Spending Priorities and regulations and that may be an ugly word to people who represent business but you know, the point of this it should be done to create more jobs. More jobs at a better rate of pay that people have more free timeif government is going to it in business, the trillions of dollars we invest in business that our taxpayerst in business, those benefits should be going to workingclass people , not strictly business, and that is the problem. All this money goes to business but it n49■ever sms to funnel i way down to benefit workingclass people. Listen, i agree with you. I think we should have an interest in leisure time. I think we should have an interest in making sure that people are able to find value outside of work. Im glad they do but a lot of people find more value by the institutions by the social clubs and churchhat they affiliate and spend time with outside of work but that is just less accessible for people today and that should be a Public Policy interest of the United States ngress and i appreciate this hearing allowing us to talk about that. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator cassidy . Although we hav we got a lot of questions so i will ask you to be tight with your questions. I totally age you. I was in a hospital for the uninsured. Folks ron johnson decent pay. I agree with that entirely. There is a little bit of confusion in what you are saying and i want to put out that confusion. When you say people are working longer to work more money, if you just cut them down to 32 hours a week, they are still making the same money so for them to grow their co to eitherk overtime and or take a second job. And yes, theres companies that work 24 7 but the■j week or 41. 3 hours per week. So i think we have to be kind of clear on that and lastly, of course, productivity is not more hours to make the same money. Productivity is more work per hour and its oftentimes aided by machines in which case theres less wear and tear on the body, not to say that theres not wearandtear on the body. We think of construction workers whole point. When you mention that decreasing hours worked per week increases productivity, it makes total sense to me. When i go to spain and go to mcdonalds, they dont have somebody at the front desk to take my order i push a button on and it dispenses it and our department of labor has said that if we raise minum wage, there wi be a net loss of jobs because people automate in order to decrease their labor cost. How would, if you are speaking of the service industry, why would raising the labor costs by having fewer hours worked per week for the same salary be any different thange in terms of an incentive for net loss of jobs by replacing workers with automation . Yes, thank you for that question. Let me just respond. Two points. Resting no increase in second job holding in our studies, by the way. The impacts that we are seeing are not labor displacing because people are able to make up that productivity in the four days that they had in the five days. That surprises me. Intuitively i am a doctor about the nurses working shorter hours, i will just say that according to the Pennsylvania Hospital association, 30 of our impositions of our positions are unfilled and the hospital spent the 5 million for nurse overtime because of a nursing shortage. So i am how to swear that because they work less hours but they had to pay more for overtime. These are for their nurse managers because the other nurses are on these threeday schedules and so forth. So and this was put into place two years after the pandemic started. So the nurse managers are working less, not the rns themselves. Correct, because they are not on fiveday schedus. I am almost out of time. Im going to move. We are going to get a health bill. My staff is working 80 hours a any time they call me on a saturday or sunday or monday on a holiday, they are fully prepared. When you all have a big crunch time, deadline has to hit and you have to move. People still only work 32 hours . No, it is a norm. S is your standard work week . That is all i was going to check. I look at frances Unemployment Rate among the youth and its like 17 . Its pretty amazing. For the next group, its like 7 ■ or 8 , much higher than ours. They have other labor laws as well but you had mentioned that this kind of sugar high of more and then it goes away but also that there is a lots of work as workers need to go and temporary wkers are hore. Can you elaborate on that please . I think it is the same kind of ideas right when covid hit. We are all banking bread and doing whatever we are doing and as covid went on longer, at home or, you are sitting in your bed longer. It shows in the longterm studiewe just see that happen ar again with people. I think we see it cle■elyof unen the same way. The other things that occur, the disruption in the economy, etc. , did more to dictate your ha not you work a little less . Indeed, there may be a loss of a job because of the impact upon you. Happened in france as people lost their jobs. Just to make the point, there is nothing to prevent a baseness like mr. Lee lind or Temple University hospital or a select group of employees to have a policy which would be 32 hours a week so theres no reason fora mandate per se. Companies can do that, just to make that point. Absolutely, senator. Flexibility to workers and to employers. Dont have government come in and intnete position of where we should be going. Now, as for as the number of workers available in this country, i agree get more peoplk into the workforce for sure. Study after study shows even if we did that, and im looking at a recent u. S. Chber of commerce study, we would still have 3 million jobs open in this country. This proposal is going in the wrong direcon. Flexibility is what we need. First of all, i want to ask you this. You had mentioned i did not quite get the association versus causation. You say that when theres more inequality, that people work longer hours. I did not quite understand that relationship. Is that an association or causation . Are done with macroeconomic studies so we believe they are causation but they are not controlled experiments. Any comment . If you do not have a controlled extremity, you cannot find causation. Ie■ve a vaccineo somebody who became pregnant. Just because it happens at the same time, it is not a causation. It is an association. These are highly sophisticated studies once gavei really would disagree with the idea that we can only know something if we have experiments. I am out of time. Because people need to work more hours to keep up. A comparative dimension to the way peoples sense of i am notmilk costs more becay else is making more but that is another story. Yes. ■ while i would work ad research all these years on the lives people lead in various types of jobs. You talk a little bit about the different ways that people have a shorter workweek, ta poff evey and each month off. I got several questio. Pros and cons on this. The majority in our studies, and thank you, by the way. Really wonderful to see you. They are doing full days off. Over 90 of our studies are doing full days off and that seems to be a much more this thr daily hours although theres a little bit of variation. My studies is whether or not having three consecutive days had a bigger impact on wellbeing and we were surprised that it doesnt and some of them, people are taking this wednesdays off to get a break in the middle of the week. Interesting. Great question. Thank you. Over 70 of the businesses in our u. S. And canada sample have fewer than 25 employees so i think this is proving to be an especially appealing thing for Small Businesse. They have to do with higher levels of stress that they are seeing among their employees. I mean, one of the things is the small number of companies who are discontinuing. We are trying to figure out what is common among them. So far, the only thing we can see isj levels of wellbeing increase that the ones who dont stop are. He i first became mayor of denver in 2003, we had the worst budget recession ever and one of thst he compelled all City Employees to take friday afternoons off unpaid. That was not perfect. No one likes when you are on a tight budget to have to make a budget bounce again into the month and people really liked it. To this day. To give people that friy off every week we saw an increase in sales at local restaurants which was interesting, and other retail sales went up. Heres some accessory benefit. Im going to skip past year although i cannot tell you how excited i am to have the chief for kickstarter. I want to go to dr. Witte just because i found compelling that she was in 2018 coolest person in scotland and that her tele libertys Great American cookbook is it still showing in scotland . It is. I need all the viewers i can get. We want to make sure to prome when i was the mayor and working through that and i looked this up last night it is not a common name. It is interesting that she seemed because her brother was a journalist,b sful, admired journalist. Hes based in denver when i first became mayor so hes cooled me educated me within the school of hard knocks as to how to think about these things. Anyway, one argument in favor of implementing a 32 hour workweek is that, you are going to make such a dramatic increase. How realistic do you think that is■i and when would those productivity increases begin to show or begin to have a benefit . I think the use the word ai and dont necessarily know what that means. And as someone who works in this space, we dont know yet abilities ai is going to give us or machine learning. We are still trying to figure out what those words even really mean, so to say that theres going to be of productivity and wealth, we just dont know yet, and no one is saying i am certainly not saying it is above my pay grade people should not ishare in that. But mandating the reduction to a 32 hour work week is not the way to do that. Got it. I hear that. Lked a little bit more you have got into ai on a little bit of a deeper level. What is your feeling on that . Tremendous opportunity for everybody, absolutely, but the issue of distribution of wealth, the wealth dividend senator, from ai, that is what we are really talking about here. I would point the committees intention to chart one in my testimony. Productivity and compensation have gone similarly tracked similarly for decades. Now, there have been gaps in different industries. Theres been time lags, senator, but market will solve this issue. Surveying will negotiate hard for 32 hours, i am sure. Others willav a take for 32 hours. We see work. But let the market decide this. Dont have congress impose on employers. Or employees. Got it. Great. Gowhen you were negotiating i introduced this notion of a 32 hour workweek. Iean, you have talked firsthand with large employers and large groups of employees. Ultimately, it was not included in the fal contrac were some of the concerns unique concerns we have not heard before that were raised by the employers and what do you think it would■eemployers to mo . I think in terms of the 36 hour work week that we tried when i wascity. It is roughly a 10 pay raise. That is the way to think about doing Something Like that. The level having that friday afternoon off was palpable. You could feel it. What is your sense on that . Ge, doing something different. I mean, you look at there are studies that have been done when workers,factory workers in manufacturing, when they work anything after 10 hours, typically, they are not as productive. The wear and tear that you go through throughout the day, there have been a lot of studies done on that that productivity actually drops off so there are benefits to shorter working hours as a person who has stood on a line as an 18yearold, i can vividly remember putting i would sit ther it is monotonous work, doing it over and over and over, and literally after two hours of that, you are just you know, your mind is wandering off. Imagine doing that for 12 hours a day, seven days a week, so there are a lot of befits to having some semblance of worklife balance, but unfortunately, with the advances in technology, Companies Choose to eliminate jobs and squeeze more and more people, the remaining people, working more and more hours. And that just does not work. I appreciate that. I have many more questions which i will throw in in writing that i yield back to the chair. Thank you all for being here. Thank you. Senatorwithout objection. Mr. King, you can inform your that my legislation probably will not be passing tomorrow. They will be glad to hear that. A the point of this hearing is to raise at the congressional level something that has not been discussed her decades after decades. I think as all of us have understood moment in american history. We have more income and wealth equality then we have ever had before. Senator murphy made the interesting point that for the billionaire class, now a marit earned by any but being transferred to children, unearned income, if you like. We are seeing ceos making 350 times more than their workers while 62 of the people pwin america are living paychecktopaycheck. We have the highest level of childhood poverty of almost any major country on earth. Many of our it hard to retire. So we have got to start asking some fundamental questions. This is an extraordinarily wealthy country. Top and according to the rand corp50 years, the Rand Corporation is not exactly a socialist organization over the last 50 years, 50 the bottom 90 of thp 1 . So in the wealthiest country in the history of the world,ity ofe struggling to put food on the table. They are living under incredible stress. Our Life Expectancy is significantly lower than other countries and for workingclass people, years fewer than you were if you are upperclass. These are issues that have got to be discussed. Im not suggesting that a 32 hour work week is going ■qto change all of that but one of the issues that we have got to talk about is stress in this country, the fact that so many people are going to work rj physically and mentally. And the fact that we have not changed the fair labor standards act. This was in 1940, we came up with the 40 hour workweek, 1940. Who is going to deny that the econy not fundamentally and radically changed over that period of time . So to suggest that we have to maintain that we put in does noa lot of sense to me so let me just conclude by thanking all of our excellent panelists. It has been a gois hope the disn continues and thank you all very much for being here today. Questions, thes who wish to ask questions will be due in 10 business days. I ask unanimous consent tterkwea statement from the congressman and Business Owners across the country. The meeting stands adjourned. co[chatter] earlier today, secretary javi becer testified on the president s 2025 budget request for h department. Watch the hearing tonight enow, or online at cspan. Org. Y night, watching cspans 2024 campaign trail from our weekly roundup of cspans campai shop to discover what the candidates across the country are saying to voters. Along with firsthand accounts from political reporters, updated poll numbers, fundraising data, and campaign ads. Watch cspans 2024 campaign trail, friday night, at 7 30 p. M. Eastern on cspan, online at cspan. 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Scan the qr code to download it for free today or visit our website, cspan. Org cspan now. Gton, anytime, anywhere. The house is in recess until attend a party retreat in West Virginia but the senate is in ssion today, working on some of president bidennominations including the u. S. Ambassador to haiti. Majority lchuck schumer took to thr, calling for a twoteol palestine amid the ongog war between israel and hamas. This is about 45 minutes. President , i rise to speak tod