Transcripts For CSPAN2 Ellen Ullman Life In Code 20171014 :

We won and the homelessness of aids through to sustain our efforts. Everything you see here have been donated to us. The proceeds go to housing and healthcare and other lifesaving work. Every time you buy a book or a beer here you are doing a good deed. Theres a bar to my left in a cafe to my right and a beautiful display of the book that you can buy. Were grateful for the publishers for donating their books that you can buy tonight. You can get involved with Thousand Oaks but donating your time, dont have the books. Notes. We also host weddings and private parties. He can keep in touch with us on social media and sign up for our newsletter which comes every week tells you about the reading, concerts and parties thats all you have to know when introduce our authors silicates started. Ellen wrote her First Computer Program in 1978. She went on to have a 20 year career her essays and books have become landmark works described in the social emotional personal effects of technology. Shes the author of two novels. Her memoir post as a top engineer. Her new book, life in code a personal history of technology tells the story of the technical world as experience for living in the midst of more than two decades. Shes based in San Francisco. The second conversationalist is the host and editor of note to self, every week under podcasts she researches answers to lifes countriequandaries. In 2014 the alliance for women in media named her outstanding host. Shes the author of the board and brilliance camera ready. Lets have a big round of applause. This is my fantasy that we set down in a cafe just chatted about your book. You can listen and if you want to because the note to self team i have to thank you for coming in and i have my version with all the postit notes. She came in and said oh my gosh, we all have to read this book. We did talk about it and marveled over and couldnt wait to have you on the show which we did last week we got a lot of amazing feedback. Its my pleasure talking with you. Was good conversation. I get task you things we didnt get to talk about. Your book is a compilation of essays and ideas. How do you begin. How did you go about this . That prediction came true lets put that in there. How did you decide to do this . My editor said only your best work so that eliminated things in made it easier. The idea was to have a stop motion in history so i look for things i wrote my thought well is the still pertinent say anything . Can i did that moving forward looking at different pieces discarding some until i thought we had something that made sense over time. Artificial intelligence takes up about a quarter the book. Those are also written in a sequence over time. They make their own story the same thing there is a section called three stories about what we all the past. Right the technology of the future i thought it was important to say look at things that happened in 1980. This is how i learn to have skepticism. Were getting feedback here. Thats how came about. Then i moved it up to the present, coming to the end which is a farewell. I thought he would go a good this time its not going to crash is going to slowly deflate but its now what i feared it would be when i started in 1994, deepen into the deepest intimacies of our lives. Technology is not leaving that deep in her place. You knew that tech would intrude into our lives but you cannot know that so many people would be delighted at that change state of existence. What did you mean by that . Thats in a piece called while i was away. There is a hole in the time sequence when i wrote the novel he said is there an essay in that which is always a good question to ask. It turns out there was that i finished the book and these were feared things i feared all the time. Like the internet would intrude and transmit lives on social lives and changing politics. But then i said these are things i feared and then people just go about their lives as if that did not exist. It seems the madness of our time that we know that were being surveyed bits of information about us down to what we like for dinner are being traded. Equifax, anybody that on the other hand i like everybody, you cant live without it anymore. Its a strange dual mindedness. To look back and say theres word happen is that more like the frog in the pot that we are all just simmering and. 19981996 was the first boom growing. Despite the took place in Silicon Valley a lot took place in San Francisco. The revolutionary freewheeling energy was in San Francisco. I watched it grow up by 98 the web had taken over economic life. There is a movement her trend called this intermediation. Theres you and the web and all those people that help to figure out what to do in between, it agents and brokers and experts were not to be trusted come out for themselves come to us on the web. Was that moment i felt that was the Mainstream Media is not to be trusted and this was a way to draw people to the web. Thats where you get your needs satisfied. The interface on the web worst down trolls. You are trapped in one website. At that point that theres a whole layer of the middle class and expertise that has been removed or disgraced are mistrusted. In this i thought was the beginning of something differe different. This quote i have is from that. I was walking toward Market Street one afternoon when i saw it. The background of brilliant skyblue with writing on it, is it weird to have me read this to. And said, now the world really does revolve around you, what does that mean for us. To me read your book and i thought she called instagram a decade ago. He saw this was coming this personalization but you not only saw the wonders of it like a glutenfree indian food delivered to my door in 20 minutes but also there is a for every wonderful thing that happened there is another side to it. I differ see anything. But i side described seem to be coming around me. Slowly dawning on me, not obvious became more obvious more i thought about it and wrote about it. How can i say this . I just knew it was going to happen. I didnt foresee anything. When i read it back again i went, im really sorry this happened. I look at it and i didnt foresee instagram, i differ see twitter but im really sorry that i did see it coming. There are things in the book that i wrote and i hope im wrong about this. Like what . Very worried about stock market and the way that the first one the general public was last runs in. Like this is a big gold rush and its going up and up. And those in the general public room because it was hot. The proverbial shoeshine boys of the depression. So they got in late and they fueled the very last crust and they suffered most because theyre putting in the for one case that there extra billions, afraid work and have Something Like that again. What my fear is that these companies dont want to go public anymore. There same private. So its an insiders game going on. I dont know what effect it will have on the larger public except to keep these few companies who make no money whatsoever, back to the old Revenue Growth matters. It will last millions in the last quarter they were doing better. This is what i worry about. Theyre people who have so much money they can afford to lose it. Feeling tremendous Growth Without natural break in terms of are they making money . Will it be a benefit to the public . Usually a company that goes public has to stand on its own at some point. Its interesting that their plane the longer game. Like well we know right now its about changing how you get a car ride but their training the machines to take us to a world where we dont need drivers and uber wants to own the way you get around. Is that a shift in how Silicon Valley always work . Were they always looking that far ahead . This relates to seven Artificial Intelligence. For many years the movement artificial intelligent was to create a human robot and the fear was we wont be able tell the robot who the human being is. That utterly failed. Time and again it came up against the big problem that human beings have the same called consciousness and selfawareness. And we have emotions that bind up social lives. So robots turned out pretty bad this is what the principal thing applied to self driving car i take out driverless cars. It no longer matters if it drives like a human being. They dont want to drive like a human being. Its car to car interaction and it could be internet interaction. The Uber Movement is on the verge of a culmination of a trend. She said its an ugly possible trend in which you remove the intermediaries. Even the taxi drivers go first, uber drivers go next and then left with machine to machine interaction. Were interested in machine to machine interaction. I was in San Francisco last week i was taking a lift and uber was deleted off my phone. And fine with it. You should know. Its up my phone. I took limited it was a lovely kenyan man who moved to about 13 years ago and he is a 4yearold g4yearold. I got this whole story. He told me about his rent and how many square feet he was getting. And i thought in five or 20 years, you would not be choosing San Francisco as a place to get a job. Where in the United States which you as an immigrant . Wheres the toehold into the American Dream is a work . There still people coming here for it. Taxi drivers are classic case of an immigrant job. A place to start and some money. I take taxis i know who this person is, theyre probably not drunk or stoned if they had a dwi the last six months they would not be driving. The car probably lose a wheel. I know what ill be paid ahead of time so, i probably wont be abducted. Didnt your mother ever tell you dont to get in to a car with a stranger. Is at a stranger . They got a great rating but if you dont give great rating to be demoted as a passenger. You cant rate fairly. I take a regular taxi from the airport i take a lift to the airport. The price difference has been extraordinary, lift is half the price. You just think how can the taxi industry i think thats just one example. We could go down the line with food and clothes and hardware goods and there it is all the time. Im sorry i interrupted you. Tell me more. No, we have to go where we go can ask an industry question . Do you have text docs . I do. I dont make these choices myself because i buy very well but i cant sell. My friend who does help me and manages this she said youre just afraid to take your cards off the table. You dont know when to get out and i said no i might miss something. Its like leaving a partys too soon. Said he really needs something is on your own so we go up and down about which stocks to buy. It turns out apple is the best performing stock in the last ten years whether you like apple or not. So what is the future . What is going to happen with people needing jobs . Bookstores dont pay all that well do they . People in retailer losing their job. Small shops are closing Big Box Stores are suffering, even walmart because people go there and use it as a showroom of a order from amazon online. I dont want to foresee this future. I leave it for someone whos looking at things now in their lifetime 20 years from now to tell me where they think its going. You look pretty robust, you might be along for a while. And given up the rocking chair in a in the future who do you think we should be watching most closely . Facebook i wrote down a list of things that happened last two weeks. Special Counsel Robert Mueller and congressional committees are investigated the russian sponsored ads. Fake news, potential antitrust regulations in europe. Advisors can target users. Not a great month for facebook. Although you have been talking about those issues for a long time in our show last few years when into it. Seems like read a moment where the bloom is off the rose. Such as facebook . Are we had a bigger moment wherever looking at a society rot by the big five say no, not okay, not good enough. Facebook is not going away. Thats most horrible thing to realize. Uber is not going away. The europeans are doing a good job smacking it round. Apple is not going away. Google is not going away, not in the near future. Even if there is a tech crash these companies have real value in the big five are staying. Facebook is the devil. Tweet that. What else can i say. The whole fake news things started with them when the right wing said okay you have these human curators of trending news and they are leaning liberal. So facebook went know you can have that. So they fired the humans and replace them with algorithms. So the algorithms looked at what was trending and they looked at the things that people were chatting about and these were the arguments people and into the rumors like there is a childhood abduction ring in the back of a pizza ring in new jersey. This would be trending news. Removing the human intermediaries created fake news. This is where it started. To push back, i was in San Francisco last week. I dont think theyre like ha ha. Most just want to there being paid well, they want to go to their job and go home and also to the drycleaning go to the gym all their working. Mark zuckerberg generally really does think that he has a best interest at heart. The San Francisco General Hospital called Mark Zuckerberg i dont think anyone evolves says im going to be a greedy ogre. I would say some venture capitalists are greedy overs thats what they do for a living there very up front. Like all whatever your startup is good to do but how does it make me money. Thats what they ask and do. I dont think the individuals are at fault but something arises out of the conglomeration of people in software that created an entity in itself that they kind of run like a machine. I dont like facebook for another reason. As soon as it came on the first way back when the great thing is that people made their own webpages and we have been elected to the user interfaces of apple and microsoft and windows that is a great relief. Nothing look the same people at 20 fonts on the screen. But then that everyone will have a webpage. Its easy to make one. But now we have facebook and its a very tight format to express yourself. But they change the format on you just when you get comfortable on how you can express yourself and talk to the people that say what youre interested in the near doing in a different way. Its true across the web. Just when he gets to be a baking user of the Banking Software try the beta and now youre an idiot again. Sometimes its better. That nice feature you used to have i have to pay quickbooks to get it. Two women sitting on the stage talk about tech is pretty unusual. Thank you for saving this a few minutes into the conversation. Some intimate charis swisher next week and i wonder if an explosion will happen is it possible . By looking at another woman writing about tech, no label wrote a piece in the new york times. Oh god. It was about the sense of misogyny that has always been there. But now it has become tied to movement more of a codified movement with the name where women are not needed and tied very much to extreme right politics in many ways. I know where to start this. Whenever theres been an effort to bring women or minorities of any sort, let me give you hand out mocking me. Let me go out of my way to help people who have been excluded. There was a fierce backlash. In tach it is amazing how quickly it turned pornographic. My book came out and on flash drive its a geek site some guy said you should see the reviews like she wrote about my life. Their other interchanges. By the 61 it was i know alan and i saw her naked body, and i didnt like outlook. So they drove me off and this was a place i felt comfortable, where i belong to is a Software Engineer. This is what happened. I felt driven out the door. That you should go back there, youre tough and i thought screw them all. But i did need them. So a python conference in which they were making an effort to welcome women and girls have had this wall where people could put up yellow postit notes to make comments. Within 48 hours know within about a day it turned pornographic. It starts with wide we have to help him, cant these make it on their own what youre reading about now is the james to more memo, these guys are saying its a witch hunt. Lets face it, this is turning on its head the victims who victimize themselves. What is a witch hunt . Witches were tortured and murdered. These people are being put upon that might make a dent in their 200,000dollar your salary. So they have this idea that women cant make it. If i go through it ill give you an example and that thats funny. Which will relate back to your book so one thing he says is women can be Good Software engineers because they want to balance in life. They cant sleep under their desk at night get work done. And i thought exactly what was in this article and he says everyone is very young, even younger than me. So its young men in an arrested state of development. Their sub adult males. This is about the grizzly bear who ate the man in the grizzly. They called him sub adult male. So i just drop my voice because im better names. It is young men who do not have yet taken on responsibilities of other adult life. They can sleep under their desk and bring their dogs to work. So wait a minute. Get back to your book now. Thats bad Software Engineering because banging your head into a screener stain under your desk all night preoccupied with one problem one set of problems will not get you anywhere. As you know in your book you have to back away. You have to introduced emptiness and boredom into your life. Play frisbee so not only is it a way to express misogyny against women its bad Software Engineering. Why the concentration of these junior men assignment refer to them. Why in tach . Why there . It was fascinating. I was at google last week and gave a talk and i was waiting like i presented my ideas which are saying that we need to change our daily digital habits to get rid of some of the horrible things. I was expecting a huge backlash from the engineers. All they wanted to know was how to avoid burnout. Thats like really, Thousand Oaks<\/a> but donating your time, dont have the books. Notes. We also host weddings and private parties. He can keep in touch with us on social media and sign up for our newsletter which comes every week tells you about the reading, concerts and parties thats all you have to know when introduce our authors silicates started. Ellen wrote her First Computer Program<\/a> in 1978. She went on to have a 20 year career her essays and books have become landmark works described in the social emotional personal effects of technology. Shes the author of two novels. Her memoir post as a top engineer. Her new book, life in code a personal history of technology tells the story of the technical world as experience for living in the midst of more than two decades. Shes based in San Francisco<\/a>. The second conversationalist is the host and editor of note to self, every week under podcasts she researches answers to lifes countriequandaries. In 2014 the alliance for women in media named her outstanding host. Shes the author of the board and brilliance camera ready. Lets have a big round of applause. This is my fantasy that we set down in a cafe just chatted about your book. You can listen and if you want to because the note to self team i have to thank you for coming in and i have my version with all the postit notes. She came in and said oh my gosh, we all have to read this book. We did talk about it and marveled over and couldnt wait to have you on the show which we did last week we got a lot of amazing feedback. Its my pleasure talking with you. Was good conversation. I get task you things we didnt get to talk about. Your book is a compilation of essays and ideas. How do you begin. How did you go about this . That prediction came true lets put that in there. How did you decide to do this . My editor said only your best work so that eliminated things in made it easier. The idea was to have a stop motion in history so i look for things i wrote my thought well is the still pertinent say anything . Can i did that moving forward looking at different pieces discarding some until i thought we had something that made sense over time. Artificial intelligence takes up about a quarter the book. Those are also written in a sequence over time. They make their own story the same thing there is a section called three stories about what we all the past. Right the technology of the future i thought it was important to say look at things that happened in 1980. This is how i learn to have skepticism. Were getting feedback here. Thats how came about. Then i moved it up to the present, coming to the end which is a farewell. I thought he would go a good this time its not going to crash is going to slowly deflate but its now what i feared it would be when i started in 1994, deepen into the deepest intimacies of our lives. Technology is not leaving that deep in her place. You knew that tech would intrude into our lives but you cannot know that so many people would be delighted at that change state of existence. What did you mean by that . Thats in a piece called while i was away. There is a hole in the time sequence when i wrote the novel he said is there an essay in that which is always a good question to ask. It turns out there was that i finished the book and these were feared things i feared all the time. Like the internet would intrude and transmit lives on social lives and changing politics. But then i said these are things i feared and then people just go about their lives as if that did not exist. It seems the madness of our time that we know that were being surveyed bits of information about us down to what we like for dinner are being traded. Equifax, anybody that on the other hand i like everybody, you cant live without it anymore. Its a strange dual mindedness. To look back and say theres word happen is that more like the frog in the pot that we are all just simmering and. 19981996 was the first boom growing. Despite the took place in Silicon Valley<\/a> a lot took place in San Francisco<\/a>. The revolutionary freewheeling energy was in San Francisco<\/a>. I watched it grow up by 98 the web had taken over economic life. There is a movement her trend called this intermediation. Theres you and the web and all those people that help to figure out what to do in between, it agents and brokers and experts were not to be trusted come out for themselves come to us on the web. Was that moment i felt that was the Mainstream Media<\/a> is not to be trusted and this was a way to draw people to the web. Thats where you get your needs satisfied. The interface on the web worst down trolls. You are trapped in one website. At that point that theres a whole layer of the middle class and expertise that has been removed or disgraced are mistrusted. In this i thought was the beginning of something differe different. This quote i have is from that. I was walking toward Market Street<\/a> one afternoon when i saw it. The background of brilliant skyblue with writing on it, is it weird to have me read this to. And said, now the world really does revolve around you, what does that mean for us. To me read your book and i thought she called instagram a decade ago. He saw this was coming this personalization but you not only saw the wonders of it like a glutenfree indian food delivered to my door in 20 minutes but also there is a for every wonderful thing that happened there is another side to it. I differ see anything. But i side described seem to be coming around me. Slowly dawning on me, not obvious became more obvious more i thought about it and wrote about it. How can i say this . I just knew it was going to happen. I didnt foresee anything. When i read it back again i went, im really sorry this happened. I look at it and i didnt foresee instagram, i differ see twitter but im really sorry that i did see it coming. There are things in the book that i wrote and i hope im wrong about this. Like what . Very worried about stock market and the way that the first one the general public was last runs in. Like this is a big gold rush and its going up and up. And those in the general public room because it was hot. The proverbial shoeshine boys of the depression. So they got in late and they fueled the very last crust and they suffered most because theyre putting in the for one case that there extra billions, afraid work and have Something Like<\/a> that again. What my fear is that these companies dont want to go public anymore. There same private. So its an insiders game going on. I dont know what effect it will have on the larger public except to keep these few companies who make no money whatsoever, back to the old Revenue Growth<\/a> matters. It will last millions in the last quarter they were doing better. This is what i worry about. Theyre people who have so much money they can afford to lose it. Feeling tremendous Growth Without<\/a> natural break in terms of are they making money . Will it be a benefit to the public . Usually a company that goes public has to stand on its own at some point. Its interesting that their plane the longer game. Like well we know right now its about changing how you get a car ride but their training the machines to take us to a world where we dont need drivers and uber wants to own the way you get around. Is that a shift in how Silicon Valley<\/a> always work . Were they always looking that far ahead . This relates to seven Artificial Intelligence<\/a>. For many years the movement artificial intelligent was to create a human robot and the fear was we wont be able tell the robot who the human being is. That utterly failed. Time and again it came up against the big problem that human beings have the same called consciousness and selfawareness. And we have emotions that bind up social lives. So robots turned out pretty bad this is what the principal thing applied to self driving car i take out driverless cars. It no longer matters if it drives like a human being. They dont want to drive like a human being. Its car to car interaction and it could be internet interaction. The Uber Movement<\/a> is on the verge of a culmination of a trend. She said its an ugly possible trend in which you remove the intermediaries. Even the taxi drivers go first, uber drivers go next and then left with machine to machine interaction. Were interested in machine to machine interaction. I was in San Francisco<\/a> last week i was taking a lift and uber was deleted off my phone. And fine with it. You should know. Its up my phone. I took limited it was a lovely kenyan man who moved to about 13 years ago and he is a 4yearold g4yearold. I got this whole story. He told me about his rent and how many square feet he was getting. And i thought in five or 20 years, you would not be choosing San Francisco<\/a> as a place to get a job. Where in the United States<\/a> which you as an immigrant . Wheres the toehold into the American Dream<\/a> is a work . There still people coming here for it. Taxi drivers are classic case of an immigrant job. A place to start and some money. I take taxis i know who this person is, theyre probably not drunk or stoned if they had a dwi the last six months they would not be driving. The car probably lose a wheel. I know what ill be paid ahead of time so, i probably wont be abducted. Didnt your mother ever tell you dont to get in to a car with a stranger. Is at a stranger . They got a great rating but if you dont give great rating to be demoted as a passenger. You cant rate fairly. I take a regular taxi from the airport i take a lift to the airport. The price difference has been extraordinary, lift is half the price. You just think how can the taxi industry i think thats just one example. We could go down the line with food and clothes and hardware goods and there it is all the time. Im sorry i interrupted you. Tell me more. No, we have to go where we go can ask an industry question . Do you have text docs . I do. I dont make these choices myself because i buy very well but i cant sell. My friend who does help me and manages this she said youre just afraid to take your cards off the table. You dont know when to get out and i said no i might miss something. Its like leaving a partys too soon. Said he really needs something is on your own so we go up and down about which stocks to buy. It turns out apple is the best performing stock in the last ten years whether you like apple or not. So what is the future . What is going to happen with people needing jobs . Bookstores dont pay all that well do they . People in retailer losing their job. Small shops are closing Big Box Stores<\/a> are suffering, even walmart because people go there and use it as a showroom of a order from amazon online. I dont want to foresee this future. I leave it for someone whos looking at things now in their lifetime 20 years from now to tell me where they think its going. You look pretty robust, you might be along for a while. And given up the rocking chair in a in the future who do you think we should be watching most closely . Facebook i wrote down a list of things that happened last two weeks. Special Counsel Robert Mueller<\/a> and congressional committees are investigated the russian sponsored ads. Fake news, potential antitrust regulations in europe. Advisors can target users. Not a great month for facebook. Although you have been talking about those issues for a long time in our show last few years when into it. Seems like read a moment where the bloom is off the rose. Such as facebook . Are we had a bigger moment wherever looking at a society rot by the big five say no, not okay, not good enough. Facebook is not going away. Thats most horrible thing to realize. Uber is not going away. The europeans are doing a good job smacking it round. Apple is not going away. Google is not going away, not in the near future. Even if there is a tech crash these companies have real value in the big five are staying. Facebook is the devil. Tweet that. What else can i say. The whole fake news things started with them when the right wing said okay you have these human curators of trending news and they are leaning liberal. So facebook went know you can have that. So they fired the humans and replace them with algorithms. So the algorithms looked at what was trending and they looked at the things that people were chatting about and these were the arguments people and into the rumors like there is a childhood abduction ring in the back of a pizza ring in new jersey. This would be trending news. Removing the human intermediaries created fake news. This is where it started. To push back, i was in San Francisco<\/a> last week. I dont think theyre like ha ha. Most just want to there being paid well, they want to go to their job and go home and also to the drycleaning go to the gym all their working. Mark zuckerberg generally really does think that he has a best interest at heart. The San Francisco<\/a> General Hospital<\/a> called Mark Zuckerberg<\/a> i dont think anyone evolves says im going to be a greedy ogre. I would say some venture capitalists are greedy overs thats what they do for a living there very up front. Like all whatever your startup is good to do but how does it make me money. Thats what they ask and do. I dont think the individuals are at fault but something arises out of the conglomeration of people in software that created an entity in itself that they kind of run like a machine. I dont like facebook for another reason. As soon as it came on the first way back when the great thing is that people made their own webpages and we have been elected to the user interfaces of apple and microsoft and windows that is a great relief. Nothing look the same people at 20 fonts on the screen. But then that everyone will have a webpage. Its easy to make one. But now we have facebook and its a very tight format to express yourself. But they change the format on you just when you get comfortable on how you can express yourself and talk to the people that say what youre interested in the near doing in a different way. Its true across the web. Just when he gets to be a baking user of the Banking Software<\/a> try the beta and now youre an idiot again. Sometimes its better. That nice feature you used to have i have to pay quickbooks to get it. Two women sitting on the stage talk about tech is pretty unusual. Thank you for saving this a few minutes into the conversation. Some intimate charis swisher next week and i wonder if an explosion will happen is it possible . By looking at another woman writing about tech, no label wrote a piece in the new york times. Oh god. It was about the sense of misogyny that has always been there. But now it has become tied to movement more of a codified movement with the name where women are not needed and tied very much to extreme right politics in many ways. I know where to start this. Whenever theres been an effort to bring women or minorities of any sort, let me give you hand out mocking me. Let me go out of my way to help people who have been excluded. There was a fierce backlash. In tach it is amazing how quickly it turned pornographic. My book came out and on flash drive its a geek site some guy said you should see the reviews like she wrote about my life. Their other interchanges. By the 61 it was i know alan and i saw her naked body, and i didnt like outlook. So they drove me off and this was a place i felt comfortable, where i belong to is a Software Engineer<\/a>. This is what happened. I felt driven out the door. That you should go back there, youre tough and i thought screw them all. But i did need them. So a python conference in which they were making an effort to welcome women and girls have had this wall where people could put up yellow postit notes to make comments. Within 48 hours know within about a day it turned pornographic. It starts with wide we have to help him, cant these make it on their own what youre reading about now is the james to more memo, these guys are saying its a witch hunt. Lets face it, this is turning on its head the victims who victimize themselves. What is a witch hunt . Witches were tortured and murdered. These people are being put upon that might make a dent in their 200,000dollar your salary. So they have this idea that women cant make it. If i go through it ill give you an example and that thats funny. Which will relate back to your book so one thing he says is women can be Good Software<\/a> engineers because they want to balance in life. They cant sleep under their desk at night get work done. And i thought exactly what was in this article and he says everyone is very young, even younger than me. So its young men in an arrested state of development. Their sub adult males. This is about the grizzly bear who ate the man in the grizzly. They called him sub adult male. So i just drop my voice because im better names. It is young men who do not have yet taken on responsibilities of other adult life. They can sleep under their desk and bring their dogs to work. So wait a minute. Get back to your book now. Thats bad Software Engineering<\/a> because banging your head into a screener stain under your desk all night preoccupied with one problem one set of problems will not get you anywhere. As you know in your book you have to back away. You have to introduced emptiness and boredom into your life. Play frisbee so not only is it a way to express misogyny against women its bad Software Engineering<\/a>. Why the concentration of these junior men assignment refer to them. Why in tach . Why there . It was fascinating. I was at google last week and gave a talk and i was waiting like i presented my ideas which are saying that we need to change our daily digital habits to get rid of some of the horrible things. I was expecting a huge backlash from the engineers. All they wanted to know was how to avoid burnout. Thats like really, Software Engineers<\/a> are just like us once he stayed behind to chat, super awkward think really awkward. But also kind of lovely. We had a moment and i told them they werent alone in terms of slack driving them crazy and they seemed benign. Completely. So why does this industry have this particular beef with women . We see more women going into medicine and hopefully into politics sort of but in journalism theres more women, why not here . Ive been speaking in broad generalities and i often expressed in the book that im selftaught. I worked in areas where they were mainly men. I learned a great deal from them. If i did not have the supportive and helpful man i wouldve never had a career such as it was. And i came to love the brilliant gay canis, the childishness with a brilliant mind clicking on behind it to help me get in touch with my own geek. It was small bleak core. Now, there are women coming in to the professor and the following the same route as women in medicine. Women in medicine become primary care physicians. Trying to get into things like surgery the path gets narrower. Whats happening in software is that women are relegated to the frontend. Theres a front end to anti backend. An internet in between. The front end is the webpages. Adsense messages over the internet to the server which actually handle the work. Thats where the data handling happens. I just read a piece or even women who have experience in servers going to google on our offered jobs on front and development. Again, women are shoved into another pink ghetto. Fear that were repeating pattern. Women get in but then should get shunted into the weekend or career path. Because thats how its always been im actually thinking of a moment you just took him back to 1986 when the head of the Math Department<\/a> tell me i should not bother trying to do calculus because i wasnt very good at this stuff. You just cannot say that list and age. Those the roots . This idea that its a biological thing . Those are the roots in general. Look, womens are really confident beings. The puberty happens in all the confusion of whats happening to my body, who am i pretty . So for women to find that 11yearold in them again. One thing women told me is that i try coding and i found it hard. Well, it is hard. So anything that you really want to know is hard. Just because its hard doesnt mean you cant be good at it. The question is, are you intrigued by it if you get the first successes did you feel a sense of its great. It doesnt matter if its her it can be the good heart. Maybe you wont like it. There is no should. If i never hear the acumen stem again. What about steam, you just add in a for art. Okay. Steam is better than stem. Your description of coding was a real lightbulb moment for me. Is like this is why people stay up all night in their underwear and forget to eat. Theres very few people who bring that literary eloquence into describing how the digital parts are built. Somebody who is not had a ton of experience i really felt like if youre wondering about it give it a go. But then later in the book you talk about taking in your experience the massive online course. The massive online open course. And is supposed to be a great equalizer the idea that anyone can go online if youre interested great in your curiosity take the course and off you go. Well. By the same people who teach Computer Science<\/a> everywhere. So they have their own internalized preconceptions. They have a bias. They have expectations about who the students are. So in a matter where you go to going to find it. The internet is not in air. Fire. Its a concentrator of prejudice. So if it starts here with the teacher who equates programming with video games and presumes that all the students around the world know about monty python and joke, then youre not going to take this course. There is one that theoretically may have been good introduction to python, beginners language and i was looking for this course programming for everyone because the teacher says i dont want to just teach coding i want to have a wave outward so people in general can see that coding is for everyone. So i get there before the class starts he sends around a link to video that he and a woman is teaching another course are having they call it their Digital Office<\/a> hours. In the course she begins talking about takes, things on a webpage. And so she says well i just found out when this goes away and you see these lines is called a hamburger. And he says you didnt know is called a hamburger and she said no i didnt know shes teaching web design. When he says welcome tension know when you see the three lines and theres a cutout of a man in the middle of skull the man burger . She said no man burger and this goes back and forth a few times. And he leans over to her of this is susan being streamed live to run the world and says now look, dont tell your students that the hamburger was the latest thing because its not and youll lose your credibility. Right. And i actually had to soften it in the book because lawyers dont like suck certain things. Tell us what really happened. It was a verbal fit of dominance. She literally moved aside it was heart stopping to watch this and she goes well, computer scientists a i guess my job is to be a little goofy. Shes reaching for anything to try to regain her composure. There is inexorable of it in harbors and they sent the peace and they objected to how they were pretrade. The transcript and there it is a video and they said i took it out of context. Will of course, this was the only context they sent around. It was actually shocking though. I cannot believe what i was looking at. This is what you find. Not everywhere but the coded messages the biases in there and its interwoven into the teaching. I think its a good thing to do though. People form groups and you can download the videos and show them to groups of people. You dont have to have an internet connection. Can just have your computer set up on a big screen and people can Learn Together<\/a> and talk about it together so they are useful people were trying to Learn Together<\/a> can filter it out or laugh at it i think you people are curious about coding you can take a beginner class and see if you find it fun. You can audit it. You dont have to all the assignments. Some make it very easy to get started and it might be fun so i encourage people to take a look at these. Lets take your questions. Her comments who has a question . [inaudible] [inaudible] im sorry, i cannot hear what you just said. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] i will repeat the question so the question is, the net to travel the in the fight for Net Neutrality<\/a>, doesnt have any implications for minorities or women getting into technology are having a greater voice in technology . In case you dont know what neutrality is,. The idea was that providers charge the same fees. For the connectivity the number of bits youre running through the various sites set i want to run faster and ill pay more to go on the faster channel. Like the phone lines you can have a t1 line which is faster but you pay more for it. However means the smaller website are running on a slow speed. They are on the local track. Press facebook and google are running on the express. The effect is on any small site number one the young startups and people who really want to get started somewhere in because theyre the ones less wellfunded that will adversely affect women and minorities the same way it will affect Small Businesses<\/a> it has gone away in the Current Administration<\/a> the fcc has ruled against it. There has been a lot of politics back and forth. Im not sure of the outcome right now. I think its been delayed again. Not sure if it close the petition you can assigned until a couple weeks ago. My understanding is that if we dont continue to have not Net Neutrality<\/a> it just continues in the hands of the people who already have it. That doesnt seem very fair. [inaudible question] the question is, over drivers were any taxidriver might not have a job in five or ten years, what about software or coders is that becomes more automated. That is why have this concern about women being shunted into Website Development<\/a> because theres better tools for this. Eventually it will be a very low level job. Be very dumb down profession. So the automation creeps ever deeper into what we thought was human intelligence. Ive no solution for. All i can do is worry with you. I want to work on a solution. So heres my theory to hear these people saying this next generation will need to code, but really its can be more like scratches where you have a digital block in your building on it. Is coding the answer the shortterm to jobs and education . Or is it an interdisciplinary approach to Teaching Technology<\/a> which is understanding the implication from a sociological and psychological perspective and using that to design essentially the society we want for the future, not necessarily. Coding has been the dumbing down of programming started in the 90s. Think 1999 that has continued. My point in asking people to expose themselves to code is to demystify coding. Were surrounded by these algorithms for control whether you get a mortgage or job, dont have to go on and theres a sense that we cant do anything about it. If one learns just enough to know that people write these things theyre not magic, maybe they can be changed. I have a wonderful happy story about this. Box councilman i wish i could remember his name right now proposed a bill in which all the algorithms controlling it will determine where kids go to school and this to me is one of those open your eyes hiring people to examine the code people who can do this are motivated this is why hope therell be a wider society. Went to a Tech Company Recently<\/a> and they said weve lost some people to this tech company because they have better tacos on thursdays. So, we need those people who are willing to work in the bronx and [inaudible] the lush campus. The horsemen. [inaudible] i feel like google is very complex in part because its fast. There some parts theyre doing really cool lake doing Community Minded<\/a> things and then theres other parts from like kaman, it so much like it become so fractured that it worries me. Were basically saying lets hope that they just stay cool and your friends with them. So like a larry office her job at account till Party Interest<\/a> like no. Will thats because i am selftaught and i was terrified. Im always aware that i have these between the islands but if youre selftaught you really know that they said well kind of fooling around basically teaching myself multiprocessing of their faces went do you want a job . This is at a startup party. Do i want a job at google, this was the late 90s and i became terrified. I was like a lizard climbing up the wall into the ceiling. I was afraid that i would fail. I look back on that at a moment where i regret. All other times i was said all in this. I dont know it all but ill figure it out. This was different. This was really hard and i lost faith in my ability to figure it out. When they started you know dont be evil and they meant it. But one of the early officers got up there i was talking about monetizing now how do we make money they had to make money and the story goes on from there. Google has tried hard. Again trying to have humans occasionally interact with the algorithms and theyre going back if you search for a jew the first thing that comes up is true haters unite they put in something that says if youre interested search for jewish people. But i remember talking with larry were out with his mother and his brother and i said well im kinda worried about this algorithm youre using that the rich get richard and the poor got four and he sat there and thought about he said one concerned about that but dont know any other way to do it and he met algorithmically. Algorithms cant make choices. People are choosing this, he said i cant really go and evaluate the quality of that. The only way i no space how many people who think its good. He was concerned about it they had to make money and they did. Thats not in the book. So think its funny how amazon to me as well because weve all have prime. No. I dont have prime. I just the mission i didnt have to make. [inaudible question] the pros and cons, are you scared like avon must . He does scare me. I mean someone with that much selfconfidence and that much money, his able to do what he wants. And hes terrified of it. But hes using that he has to, theres no way to build computing machines without it. Its in everything you do. Your cars a little robot. Or big robot, i dont the sides of your car robotics and Artificial Intelligence<\/a> are essentially woven into any electronic thing you have. Another toaster know there are some toasters with amazing sensors that the problem for me im concerned about machine learning. The algorithm that writes an algorithm in response to what it seen in responses against outside influences. We can get to the point where the people who wrote these dont know what its doing anymores moved out of the hands of the human beings who conceived it. This is the part that goes into science fiction. I dont generally worried about that. But on the listserv side read there are computer scientists that are worried about this. Theyre wondering about what is the responsibility of the people who create these . Correct me if im wrong, there some Amazing Things<\/a> happening in the field of ms ms. Medicine with understanding how cancer cells gross. Simply because he can have vast amounts of information to make connections theres one hospital beds looking at three have cases a year now you can take that information across the globe and have incredible discoveries. I was looking at a weed sprayer that can read what kind of weeded is and if it needs pesticide. To me there are some wonderful scenarios. So i get to the point where we see how fast these things move we dont know what theyre doing we start to use it in situations that are ethically questionable. Right now twitter seems to be the place to declare war but what if its between the missiles it sells. We been living under that for the last 70 years. Computers began as instruments of war. So they remain to some extent. Its important to remember where we started. The first computer was designed to connect late the trajectory of artillery shells in world war ii. There is women who are figuring out by hand to check the results of the machine. They were the smarter ones. They had the right answer of the machine kept getting it wrong. So we have to remember that is where we started. There conceived not as beneficial objects. A lot of technology began his work. Going back to catapults. I think porn also had a lot to do with the internet. Im talking about what tries technical change. So porn was the only thing that was actually making money in the first moon. Everybody else wasnt making money but they were making actual dollars. They were the ones who needed for all those videos to get bandwidth. A lot of what was device her bandwidth was for them. Theres certain things that drive changes in technology. You can talk about this before. [inaudible question] you mentioned how how would you describe. Is specifically machine. So the question is about how you would describe people making or writing the code for algorithms, their ethics. Will thursday the fourth of be a paul ford start up the name is called what is the name of it . Post light. That is the discussion topic. How to be a Software Engineer<\/a> and lead an ethical life. Is a big question. I think scientists faces also when i first joined a group called computer scientists for social responsibility during the star wars with an idea that will shoot down these missiles coming over and theyre very concerned that working in computing to do this would make war more likely because wed have a false sense of security. Something i find engineers are beginning to think about. Theres people with humanities educations beginning to enter the profession. Places are like google are sinners people who learned a lot another stuff and maybe were doing all this stuff and maybe theres people who can enrich our point of view. As a mix of people is slowly changing these questions are coming laced i hope so. I can be optimistic at times. I think three years ago i went to talk at a coding conference. I dont call bessie would you think about having a code of ethics and people looked at me like what are you talking about. And now its not a mainstream thing but its not unusual to hear brought up. Pretty regularly. Also some of the regulatory stuff going on in europe is forcing companies to confront that. So one of the companies we talked about they brought an inhouse philosopher to discuss what is philosophy. And why . Because in europe theres a history and it goes back to world war ii. The right to privacy is seen in a specific way there. We also have a right to privacy that we dont seem to want to legislate towards it when it comes to the tech industry. We have time for one more question. [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] [inaudible question] i get your point that the discussion is happening in different sectors of the industry including privacy and security, as it should. Thats a great place and it actually. Were at this moment were starting to see the reallife implication of some of the things he said being built around two. Cultural shift happening right now would you say . Always. I think every generation thinks it lives in extraordinary times. And that is true. Working to hang out for a little bit, check out the book, thank you for being here. [applause] [applause] [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] look to be recently visited capitol hill test members of congress what theyre reading. Heres what oklahoma congressman Steve Russell<\/a> had to say. I read and am a voracious history reader, there are some, just finished a fiction book but i just did finish a fiction book play derek robinson. It was kind of a british anti brower protest and the world war i setting in a kind of reflects the times. I have a great interest in my great grandfather and his brothers were world war i veterans. Since were in the 100th anniversary for entry into that war had been reading quite a bit about that time. Youre also an author as well. Could you talk about your experiences author. I have Great Respect<\/a> for those that take the time to write. My wartime memoir on rx appearances in iraq were published by Simon Schuster<\/a> with my memoir called we got it about the hunting capture. It took me three years to write extensive notes and personal experiences and then getting it to a major publisher where they want to publish it. Thats no small task. I wrote it myself. I often get the question of so whether you just do it for your own personal notes or you do it if. Your family so that they might have some record of your service later, i would encourage all veterans that have, you know, participated in combat experience to write about the warriors who could not tell their story and in honor of them tell what they have established. Good evening, everyone, welcome to the elle bookstore, tonight and in john cungs with the law library we are happy to have Oona Hathaway<\/a> and scott shapiro, a","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia600805.us.archive.org\/12\/items\/CSPAN2_20171014_222000_Ellen_Ullman_Life_in_Code\/CSPAN2_20171014_222000_Ellen_Ullman_Life_in_Code.thumbs\/CSPAN2_20171014_222000_Ellen_Ullman_Life_in_Code_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240629T12:35:10+00:00"}