Those infected with hiv aids through the advocacy the provision of lifesaving services and those to sustain our efforts so everything here in the bookstore has been donated house saying Health Care Advocacy and job training. Every time you buy a book you were doing a great deed with a nice beautiful display that you can go to housing works and were so grateful for donating their time and talents. You can donate your time we also house beautiful weddings or private parties. And those that will continue every week and other awesome defense even as. So now we will get started with the launch. Ellen ullman writing your First Computer Program 1978 with a 20 year career at her books are landmark works the author of to a novels and has one the hemingway award. As part of the classic heard a book life in code a personal history of technology is a continuing story while living in the midst during the two decades. Based in San Francisco. Our second conversationalist is the host and managing editor of the tech show about being jilin from her podcast to lifes digital quandaries. Ended 2014 the alliance for women in media any draw outstanding post. Sova lets have a big round of applause. [applause]. Failing girl lived is happening right now. This is my kid is a to sit down and a cafe to chat about your book. You can listen in if you want to because i have to thank my producer because i have my version and said oh my god. We all have to read this book when we talked about it and could not wait to have you on the show and we got a lot of amazing feedback. So now we get to ask you the book is a compilation of essays here and ideas. How would you begin . You are prolific. So that prediction really did come true. How did you decide to do this . To read my editor said leo best work. The idea was to stop motion in history. And then to look at the different pieces with a discussion of Artificial Intelligence but they make their own story is three stories of what we owe the past writing about technology and the future it is important look at what happened in 1980. This is our learn to have skepticism. We are getting some feedback . That is how it came about been removed to the present present, coming to the end peas here rigo again it will not crash but slowly deflate what i feared it would it be when i started in 1984 into the deepest intimacy is of our lives that technology is not leading that place in us as human beings. Host you save the yucatec with interest into the intimacies of our allies buy you didnt know so many people would be delighted at that changed state of existence. What do you mean by that . That is the peace waller was away and give credit to my editor because there was the whole in the time sequence he said is there an essay . And then i finished the book and these are things i had feared all of this time that the internet would intrude with privacy coming into the lives and social lives in changing politics so then i looked at that these are things that i feared. And then it seems to me that on the one hand we know were being surveyed. And then to be traded and like everybody cannot live without this anymore. If you say there is where it happens with the fraud in the proverbial pot . O bios. But 1996 was the first and then taking place through Silicon Valley. And that was in San Francisco. So by 1998 to take over Economic Life there is a with recalled and all those people who had helped fuel to figure out the agents and brokers and libertarians that they were not to be trusted or out for themselves and to the first Mainstream Media and to draw people directly to the web that is where you have indeed satisfied. That was more than your insurance payments the tissue were trapped with the blood website. And then there is a whole layer of the middle class it expertise and then that were mistrusted the that is the beginning of something different. What i have is from that walking toward Market Street one afternoon i saw that in the brilliant sky blue. They have not read that yet. [laughter] and it said the the world really does revolve around do what does that mean for us now . She called instagram a decade ago you saw this was coming the personalization but not only the zero wonders of that of the blue and free indian food delivered to my door in 20 minutes but also the underbelly for every wonderful thing that happened there was another side. I did not foresee anything and i described what seemed to be coming all round me slowly dawning on me it wasnt obvious but it was the more i thought about it and learned about it. How can i say this . So when i read that back tweeting over the work but i am sorry this happened i didnt foresee instagram or twitter the thought machine of the divorce universe. [laughter] but i am sorry that i did and they think i hope i am wrong. Oh i am worried about the stock market in the way the first one that the general public is the last one it is a gold rush i have my chance it goes up by half to get into the game those in the general public are not in they would be the shoeshine boys of the depression and buying stock. And putting in the 401k not the extra billions. I am afraid the mitigating the of the year so i dont know what effect at have the larger those that make no money whatsoever. And losing 645 million. This is what i worry about so much money they could afford to lose of financing the companys heeling tremendous Growth Without any natural break are they making money . Is that a benefit to the public . It is interesting like with your example of uber is a really their training machines to take this to a world we dont need to reverse the centrally to all the way you get around. Is that a shift powless Silicon Valley always works . Ten or 20 years that far . Relating to Artificial Intelligence that moment was to create a human 98 two with 08 robot they would be smarter thats utterly failed to block against the big problem called consciousness and a self awareness and the emotions that bind up so now what is going on with Artificial Intelligence with machine interaction and that is applied to the selfie driving cars. I call them Driverless Cars neither drives like a human being they wanted to. It is an interaction so with the Uber Movement is on the verge of the culmination of the trend of the ugly blossom to remove all love the intermediaries what were left with this machine to machine interaction. With the Artificial Intelligence and then last week i was taking lyft because uber is off my phone. You should know a hint it was a lovely man who moved to the United States 13 years ago from kenya and he had a four yearold and i learned a story he told me his rented how many square feet the five per cent or 20 years you will not be too is in San Francisco as a place to get a job. Where would you as an immigrant . With that toehold into the American Dream people were still coming here for the desperately. Day classic case of the immigrant job. I take taxis i confess i know that they are not strong course dollars they had day 0w i they probably would not lose a wheel i space pay ahead of time. I probably will not be affected. Did it your mother ever tell you dont get into a car with a stranger . [laughter] but is it . They dont give great ratings you are devoted and devoted to. C. It cannot rate fairly spirited take a regular taxi from the airport that i take a the lyft and price difference is extraordinary. It is half the price for so how cannon the taxi . The driving industry is just one example to go down the line. With good and close and the hardware goods sorry i interrupted you. So can basket industry question . Do you have tax stocks . You are a few tourist. I dont make these choices myself because i by very well that i cannot sell some my friend to does help me and manages this says you are just afraid to take your cards off the table you really dont know when to get out because i might miss Something Like leaving the party too soon. She said stop doing this on your own. So it tears out apple is the best performing stock the last 10 years if you like them or not. What is the future . What will happen to people needing jobs . People in retail are losing their jobs. Small shops are closing. Big box stores are suffering. Even walmart they use that as a show room then go to amazon on line. Where does it stop . I dont know purposes the future i dont want to force either somebody who looks at things no tell me where they think it is going. Could should we be watching closest in the near term . With facebook site braudel but it happened the last two weeks with special counsel investigating the russian and sponsored ads end antitrust privacy regulations and to target users and talking about those issues for a long time the last couple years but this seems a year at a moment where the bloom is off the rose. But we had the bigger moment with society not good enough facebook is not going away. Uber was not going away europeans certainly a pretty good job to snap at around but apple is not going away. Google is not going the way. These companies have real value. Facebook is the devil. [laughter] [applause] tweak that. What else can i say . Fake news started with them. To stay if you have him in curators with the leading liberal you cannot have that so they fire and the human and replace them with the algorithm to pick up trending they look at what people were chatting about these are all the arguments with rivers like a childhood deduction ring in the back of a pizzeria in new jersey. So removing that human intermediary created fake news. That is for this started. I dont think they are laughing digesting they want to be paid well they are good at what they do and want to go to their jobs and then Mark Zuckerberg genuinely seems he has our best interest of heart. Interest from San Francisco general hospital. I now think anybody says we will be a greedy ogre venture capitalists definitely are. That is their job. Guest that is what they do for a living. How will that make me money . But those individuals there are not the fault but and to create an entity of itself but first way back when with the internet and then with that user interface as it was such a great relief. But not everyone did is easier and easier. But now i have facebook but they changed the format just when you get comfortable how he will express yourself or talk to the people now we do a different way and this is true just when you get to be an expert tried this because now you are an idiot. It is better. That nice feature not you have to pay to get that. Pretty unusual. And interviewed minutes of the conversation. So if the explosion will happen is that possible . End avenue a few saw that with that since of misogyny where does that have roots . Tied it to a movement and also it is tied to the extreme right. And to bring in the women in to help people have been excluded. How quickly it turns pornographic yes we should see the review have he could not complete a fall apart send a couple of other interchanges i saw her naked body did not like how that looked. This was the place as a Software Engineer. If this is the conversation they wanted. So a conference to make an effort with those posted notes and within 48 hours and it turned pornographic. Kin to dave meggett on their own . Sold now of reading a the animal wearing it its a witch hunt. Those victims to victimized themselves those poor guys are put upon with us to a hundred thousand dollar a year salary. So the adn that women can make it so this will relate directly back to your book. So women cannot be Good Software engineers or sleep under their desks at night to get work done. So it is in the arrested state of development. This is a term used in to call them sub adult. [laughter] so young men who have not yet taken on the responsibilities they could even bring their dogs to work. So now i have to get back to your book. That is very bad Software Engineering to stay under your desk all light or staring at your screen for one set of problems will not get you anywhere as you go you have to back away to introduce emptiness and board and into your life. Play frisbee. Not only expressing misogyny this is what i dont get why the concentration of these feelings word junior men, why . I was that the last week and i was giving a talk basically saying to change the daily digital habits to get rid of some of the horrible things there is wonderful things in difficult things. I was expecting a huge backlash from the engineers and all they wanted to know how did they burn out . Really . Theyre just like us. Those elected to stay behind to chat was awkward. We had a moment bin to seem and elaine completely when i dont understand is why does this industry have this particular beef . They are going into medicine or into politics hopefully sort of. Land in in journalism, why not here . I have been speaking in broad generalities but as often as i can buy a selftaught working in areas there are amazing women. Island the great deal from them. If i did not have these supportive people i never would of had this career. And with baggy guinness. To help me get in touch it is sent all bleak. So women coming into the possession with women in medicine when they become primary care and then to get into things like surgery that advocates more narrow in narrow. There is a friend end and the back end and an event in between 2 is the front end of the webpage and all that goes into coding those send messages over the internet to the servers which handle the bulk of the work and that is where the down, dirty, algorithmic data handling happens. Even women who have experienced this go into google and are offered job on development webpages so women coming and are shunted into another ghetto which is the front end. So i fear we are repeating a pattern, women get in but get shunted into the weaker career paths. Because that is how it has always been or is it because im thinking of a moment, you took me back, 1986 when the head of the Math Department in high school told me i should not bother trying to do calculus because i wasnt very good at this stuff. You just couldnt say that in this day and age, there is no way you cant say that, some girls are not very good at this stuff, are those the roots . This idea that it is a biological thing . The roots in general, look what happens to girls . 11 years old, really comfortable beings and then puberty happens and all the confusion of what is happening to my body, am i pretty . How do you find that 11yearold . That is a task. You are told one of the things women tell me, i have tried codeing and found it hard. It is hard. And he had you really want to know is hard. Just because it is hard doesnt mean you cant be good at it. Are you intrigued by it . If you get those first little successes, did you feel a sense that was great, i want another one . Doesnt matter if it is hard to. It can be a good hard and that is the message that has to be put out over and over and maybe you wont like it. There is no should, if i never hear the acronym stem again in will be too soon. Steam. Add a for art. Steam is better than stem. I have to say your description of codeing was the real lightbulb moment for me. This is why people stay up all night in their underwear and forget to eat. Very few people bring the literary eloquence into describing how the digital parts are built, that was my as somebody who has not had a ton of experience making this and regrets not having been given more opportunities to try, if you are wondering about it give it ago but later in the book you also talk about taking a milk and your experience, massive online course. Massive online open course. Supposed to be a great equalizer, that anyone can go online if you are interested, great, bring your curiosity, take the course, off you go. There is it is taught by the same people who teach Computer Science everywhere, they have their own internalized preconceptions, they have a bias, they have expectations about who the students are so no matter where you go youre going to find this, the ethernet is not a purifier, it is a concentrator of prejudice, if it starts here with the teachers who equate programming with video games and presumes that all the students around the world know about monty python i want a shrubbery then you are not going to be able to take this course. There is one course that theoretically might have been good, and introduction to python, a beginners language and i was looking for this course, programming for everybody because in the introductory video the teacher says i dont want to just teach codeing, i want a way of outward so people in general can see code this teaching is for everybody. So i get there and before the class starts, he sends a link to a video he and a woman, teaching another course are having, they call it Digital Office hours. In the course of this she begins talking about tags, things on a webpage where you click and things happen so she says i just found out when this goes away and you see three little lines that is called a hamburger, he didnt know was called a hamburger. I didnt know it was called a hamburger, shes teaching web design for everybody and says didnt you know when you see the three little lines and a little cut out in the middle is called a man burger, she said no. Man burger and this goes back and forth a few times and he leans over to her, streamed live around the world and says look, dont tell your students a hamburger is the latest thing because it is not, you lose your credibility. And i had to soften it in the book because lawyers dont like certain things. Housing works, tell us what really happens. It was a verbal fit of dominance, she literally moved aside it was really hard stopping to watch this and then she goes i am a Computer Scientist so i guess my job is to be a little goofy and she is just reaching for anything to try to regain her composure. There was an excerpt of this in harpers and harpers sent piece and were objected to how they were portrayed. It is a transcript, there is a video and say said i took it out of context. Of course i took it out of context, this was the only context, they se