Closing tonight at 8 00. We please ask that you make all purchases before then. If you parked in the back i will be happy to validate he is here with his new book the taking advocate 129. How the cie used how her and that most daring covert operation in history. In an credible true hotel of espionage and into an engineering. The remarkable new book explains how the americas most eccentric mobile for the nuclear arms k9 29. After it have gone to the bottom of the pacific ocean. He is in your face work has appeared in popular science. Rolling stone others. He is a correspondent in author of the life cofounder of ocean a privately held Company Offers submersible. Including 2018 expedition of the titanic. And now please join me in welcoming josh dean and stockton rush. I think the best thing to is how did you get into this and give a little background overview of what happened to kate 129. This is a story ive been for a lifetime. One of the stolen intelligence stories almost a legend. It was exposed in the media and 1970s and just became the very story. Gave expression of the walmart role. I decided one day i did not know anything about it. It was in my mind but i did not really know more than the Broad Strokes. What does that mean that howard is asked to be operating did he build the ship. I did a Little Research and decided there was not a definitive atoz narrative and the information had been trickling out over the years. People have started to talk to the media even though the cia never officially told him it was okay and i found enough survivors who are willing to talk. I realize there was enough there to do a book. They spent about three years on it. Not straight through but the better part of three years. Thats how i got interested in the ocean. I wrote a story about his company because i got really interested in deepsea and arguably the greatest Naval Engineering still to this day. The incredible feat we will get into some of the particulars of that. They lost the submarine and we decided to recover it. Basically a flyover of the story for people who dont know in 1968 a soviet submarine went out on the nuclear patrol. It sink for mysterious reasons. The u. S. Navy observed this massive search in their steaming out of port really looking for something other nature of it intelligence is that we watched their sub traffic pretty closely. And when they abandon the search in the the navy said what if we can find so than the first then the first part was located it. And they did. It was 16,500 feet under the ocean in a regional pacific that have very little shift traffic. They have a system that was other water hydrophones that listen to submarine traffic. They were installed to spy on submarines basically. The air force tacked on something called active tech. They can go and recover these dummy warheads. They enabled the navy to import pinpoint the wreck. Why would the cia do that. It was a political battle to some degree but the navy isnt good at doing things quickly and quietly they build aircraft carriers and planes have come off of a time during which it had designed and executed the spy plane that was done quietly as a black program. The pentagon hierarchy decided lets give this a cia lets see if they could do. Finding the sub was wanting getting another. Its extremely complicated. There are not a lot of forces to work working her in machinery. They have to figure how to get it. New humans operate at that depth. And 68 and no one had been there. As far as doing work at that depth and actually its one thing to go down and look. And another thing to actually go down and pick that up. By Howard Hughes. That was in between. He found it to get it but getting almost an impossible question at that time the greater greatest depth was about 200. This is 60,500. It was more complicated and theyre underselling it really. But they said who wouldve imagined that the efforts of effort 7100 been felt. We can do anything with a blank check for the cold. We need to counter the soviet threat we can ask everybody in america is necessary. The have of Engineering Concepts and came up with the idea that the only way to do it was to take the list method. I can not as easy as it sounds and before they got to that idea they considered putting balloons on it. Rocket boosters on the side of the sub the rest of the motion. How to stop it. Just to keep going up into the air. Also the soviets might see that. I need to find a way to pick it up and do it in secret. We think we can do it. We can come up with the system with a long still the long still half pipe it was sort of like those arcade games. It was like a massive version of that. In theory we think we can do this. And they found a Company CalledGlobal Marine which said the Broad Strokes of that seem possible. And once they have a concept it was like we can do that either if we park out in the middle of the pacific with a the in winter thats not normal. You can see this thing is clearly is up to something you did explain it to the public and had to explain to the soviets. One thing theyre very think theyre very good at. It was initially a weather plane. They were doing all kind of research on in the decided what if we say its an ocean mining ship because there is talk in the Mining Community that there are the Rare Minerals in the bottom of the ocean. The Mining Community would like to get some day. Its just not economically feasible yet. When we just say its a mining ship there is no such thing. Every explanation can be a mining ship. There was one more part of that which was who owns that. If its a publicly traded corporation has either be cleared or lied too. We dont want to pretend to be ocean mining. You need a private company. What company is big enough that they can kill that but lawmakers are already talking about victory and they are assuring taxpayers at the benefits that this bill will bring. I think, no, i know everyones lives will be better off with tax reform. Because of the tax relief, the higher paychecks and a stronger economy and it is also bringing back jobs from overseas that if we did not an act now we continue to see headquarters and research and manufacturing leave the country. We are live in washington d. C. We can expect a vote this week . The house go first on tuesday. The senate probably wednesday and it looks like they do have the votes to pass it. Marco rubio said he does want some concessions on the Child Tax Credit although another will not vote for anything that adds one penny to the deficit. Vote for anything that adds one penny to the deficit. Is better off with it. Although mccain is a yes vote and no democrats support it. The final version keeps the tax brackets ranging from 10 up through 37 . The Corporate Tax rate is down at 21 . Also the individual mandate of obamacare is to be repealed. The highest percentage is by far so if you make 50,000 bucks. Year with a couple of kids your tax cut will be about 40 . The standard deduction nearly doubled and so will the Child Tax Credit. Filers who itemize will lose some deductions but that is if they use those in the high tax states. The tax reform bill is a disaster to help the wealthiest, most powerful corporations and it hurts the middle class. Bringing in so be as pedestrian as possible. Who does the tax plan benefit most . There is a lot going on. 44 going up that black program. It was the normal legalese. He would hand it to people. It really made an impression. Dont talk to anybody. And those guys didnt talk. They actually specifically recruited people from the south. They liked religious people like the southern christians even though the hughes operation was run by mormons. And it gets broken. Fakeness. This is literally fake news. And if you read about it enough. You wonder what else is fakeness. Who is the analog for Howard Hughes today. He probably wants to take cia payloads up there. It is a moon base. Lets go back to journalism. There was not time to run through the various stages. You want to test it first. These were just regular scientists and engineers who went out on this. They didnt had time and we were too problematic. There was no submarine out there that we could test it on. They went out there and all of it worked. Things broke during that mission. And when it came time to actually do play it. During the left of the submarine one of the fingers on the clock one of them broke. In the last part of the submarine. Part of it was recovered. They were going to go back for the breast. This mission was called project devorah in. They were going to fix the claw. It wouldve gone back. They ran the story on anyone. Theyre there the oceans et cetera. In the Broad Strokes they were trying to steal it. This is happened during world war ii. It was about the purple code break or something. They were able to swelter with within day. They never got back to the japanese. What will it take for you to sit on the story. Something that they would be really unhappy about. They see the cia and the director of the agency went to the editors and publishers. They all agreed to sit on it. Except for one radio reporter. We spent half billion dollars of taxpayer money. They went on the air and announce it to america. I promise i will call them immediately. You will have my blessing. He have a list in his wallet of everybody who said it was okay. It was just blown. At that point they cant go back out. Then its really at risk. They never publicly made a stink about it. And it seems as if kissinger and secretary of state in there. They were embarrassed by it friendly. They did not want to tell the public. The navy was he humility. People within the soviet intelligence were probably locked up and how did you let that happen. The soviets twice sent ships out and sailed around it. There was a mutual agreement. As far as we are concerned i know there are stories in the New York Times but it did not exist. We will never comment on this again. It became a situation where it was like one of their most closely guarded secrets even though i had been in the media. I did not know about that. Thats how became this legend. All of these reporters were like you want to talk to us about it what happened. And they were just like what you mean. They started doing freedom of information request. The Government Agency is obligated by law to respond to it. They have to either say here whats your asking for on the account of National Security. If they have done that then they were acknowledging that it have happened. And that is another loss. They are bound by the law that is saying we will never release the source of method. If they decide that the thing they have done never actually happened than they can even say we cant give it to you because as a National Security reason. We cant say that we cant give it to you because its of the National Security well had to respond to them. We need something to give the reporters that is can satisfy them. And one that actually the same guy who ran that covert operation went back and went through some books and came up with some phrases we can neither confirm nor deny which Everybody Knows now. It has become such a cliche. Its called the glow market rule. The name of the ship that was the request when it was a Rolling Stone reporters she got this role. They can even confirm nor do nine. She did not accept it. We accept this. And it became law. And then every agency onto today. When they start at the twitter account in 2014 the first tweet was we can neither confirm nor deny. It just tells you how big and a famous of a phrases became. And he gets really interesting and parts peculiar case for the agency. It was treated as if it was a seeker they never talked about. I think maybe that has happened a few other times. You to get the information from the fbi and the cia any inner resting in adults. And it have a lot of luck. And then there is something that is called the mandatory request. I use that. I got kind of know where frankly. I have a meeting and they were sort of like were not against of this project but we cant really do anything for you. How about helping me with the classified additional materials. There had been in 2011 redacted history that they released. It gave a i gave a lot of the dates and major events when they happened. It was a framework for the story there was not a lot of detail in there. I was trying to get i know this thing happened. I mustve filed a hundred of these things. I did not get anything. They arranged a meeting with a guy who runs the office and his distant bureaucrat that works in the office. One of the most thankless jobs in government. He does sides you can imagine if thats you. All you can do is get in trouble. You are inclined to just say no to everything because as long as you say no you cannot get in trouble. The only way the counter that they have. You can take them to court. They arranged the meeting with this guy and they said i dont the gig and help you. There is some eight boxes of that stuff. The only chance you had is if you ask for a very specific memo numbers. I decided i was not getting anywhere. I have to use what was out there. But luckily Human Resources were there. And its all built on stories of individuals who participated. I was able to find a lot of people who worked for the cia officers. And mostly for the contractors. Locking martin. Western gear. They were all involved. Global marines. Some of the Key Contractors are still alive. In a couple cases they were like no one ever told me i could talk about this. How bad it with the publicity be. Forty years ago. I would say three or four times and theres a guy the web institute. A guy there who worked on that there was no computer modeling back then. With paper and pencils. He was testing. His job was to look at when the bottom of the ship opened up they have to fill it with water to equalize the pressure. And then you can bring the clause in and out. In a rough season how much pressure the wing walls could take. At what point does the ship break in half. His job was to do that modeling. Him in particular i called. He said have to get my name. No one told me i could talk. What always happened even if there is a little residence up front. In some cases the Deputy Director of this office called the underwater Reconnaissance Office it was it within the pentagon. He was a Deputy Director of the navy. He is in a retirement home in massachusetts now. I guess you can. No one told me. No one told me i cant do it. And i ended up spending all afternoon with him. You use to used to be the Deputy Director. I feel honored and a little bit weird about that. All of these personal stories. It would come across some under academic. What advice would you have. I said do a straight with people still live. This was almost everyone who was a main character. Arguably the main character. What the program officer. He is a legend within the cia he was one of the main program managers. He basically touched all these unbelievable programs. Totally unknown guy. Everybody remembered him as the mysterious figure. I was able to bring enough of him to life. On the 50th anniversary they inducted 50 trailblazers. The people who most influenced and he was one of them. They did a time machine. Time capsule. They have not invented the time machine yet. They put one object from each decade one of the things from the 1970s was a seal the cia logo. But he put goggles on it. They made a seal out of that and they put in the time capsule. Its an incredible thing. They were never able to talk about it. There are still some things. Who wouldve been very important and wouldve told me things that maybe would have informed other parts of the book. There were definitely cases where people said nope. I understand. If youre a Security Officer would be so weird to suddenly be like come on over. Im in detail the secret. You work in these realms. How cool was this design. What they were doing what they did in the 60s between going to the moon and to do this without to say nothing. Trying to locate where the have is. And with relationship to the actual submarine. They were using very primitive computers on there. We have not gone a lot further on the bottom of the ocean. I like to say we are more advanced. After the vietnam war the thought was we are were going to go to the ocean. It seemed logical. Budget deficit in watergate and and watergate and you name it and you went aberdeen. There were just some areas where there were great technologies. They had worked on it back then. They thought this was the next space race. We built the ship and actually Global Marines when they cancel this operation they have the ship. They had spent 300 or 500 million on it. Nobody wanted it was richard anderson. I cant talk about what this was used for but its got all of this cool stuff on it. And nobody would take it. Eventually it was converted into an oil drilling ship and then it was was scrapped last year actually. At this time some of the guys who worked on the claw at lockheed it hasnt happened. When they went to the bottom of the trench in 1960. They said the worst thing about that was they won the race before it started and the never went back. There is a lot more emphasis in the robotics but a little bit in the manna subsidies. Can you take me there. What he think is left out there. The original sub had broken into three pieces. In the 1960 it was really bad year for submarines. For subsequent down and 68. Can we start going to submarine wrecks. There are some amazing racks. Two just look at a u. S. Navy some with the hellcat fighter. We did not mean to find it. If you go through a whole process. Other wrecks you can go look at that. Its pretty clear. Maybe considers looking and disturbing. You dont really want to get on the wrong side of the navy. There are a lot of shipwrecks. There are a number of wrecks from all the different wars. Things like the scorpion that has Nuclear Warheads on it. I dont think t