Witch hunt which is a fascinating read that tells us all details that weve been going through since 2016. This is a followon to your bestseller the russia hoax which was a New York Times number one bestseller. Im sure this will be as well. Youre off to the races are already number three . Guest its great to be with you. Thanks for having me. When i first heard the president use the term witch hunt in that tweet, much like he used fake news, the fact the election could be rigged, all of these things for people like me who spent most of my adult life profession life in washington, d. C. , you kind of recoil because they are bold phrases. Now you have barred this phrase for your book. Why . Guest because its very telling. What people tend to forget about witch hunt is there are no real witches. But this overwhelming irrational desire to believe that witches exist is what propels the witch hunt. Thats what happened here, an astonishing array theoretically smart people convinced themselves and tens of millions of others, the president had committed the most noxious crime there is in the criminal codes, treason, a treasonous conspiracy with Vladimir Putin hatched in the bowels of the kremlin to steal the 2016 election. And it was based on not a shred of credible evidence. And the book explains how now we know through testimony of those involved, they never had any possible evidence to launch the original fbi investigation in 2016, and nine months later when the special counsel is appointed, they still had no evidence. The appointment itself violated the regulations authorizing the appointment i explain how in the book, and one of the things that struck me as truly amazing is that the appointment was made by the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein, and it wasnt based on the evidence or the law. It was based on vengeance. He named a special counsel because rosenstein had become angry with the president. He was overwrought. He was emotional, and tenant act of retaliation he pointed bob mueller. So think about this, a 22 month Long National nightmare because one guy got angry and he knew what he had done was wrong from the day of the appointment after it was announced, hes confronted in his office about what he had done, his abuse of power, the violation of the regulations, and he cowers behind his desk and it levers, am i going to get fired . That tells you he knew what he had done was wrong. Host if you gotten fired earlier, we mightve avoided so much of this drama. Go back to this whole idea of donald trump prebeing elected to the presidency, his relationship with russia. I just remember remember, i saw flashbacks to all the interviews and stuff in the runup to the republican nomination and the general election in 2016. There was always this intrigue about donald trump was made by russia or build up a russia, a constant theme. There were scant facts or even details but where did this come from . Guest it began originally with Hillary Clinton in early 2016. She began to pepper her speeches with references to trump and putin, that might be a kremlin marionette. Host you think she believed that or just knew it was open politics . Guest one of the Unanswered Questions is did she get it from cia director john brennan who was already beginning to investigate trump and any potential ties with russia. Hes described in my book as the instigator of the witch hunt. He put together an Interagency Task force that grew to be the foundation of the russia hoax and the investigation, was used by the fbi and the particular peter strzok, who was embedded counterintelligence for the fbi. The point person in the witch hunt. And so we dont know whether it was something that came from the rich imagination of Hillary Clinton or john brennan, or both. And James Clapper was involved. He turns out to be the prodigious leaker, and explain his leaks in the book. But it all came to a head when the Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National committee paid a russian disinformation that was composed by an expert spy Christopher Steele. And the amazing, and explain this in witch hunt is that he puts together his antitrump dossier licketysplit, within the course of ten days to 14 days from behind. Thats impossible. You read the first memo of his dossier. Thats the kind of information that would take months if not years of working human Source Information on the ground in russia. He had not been in russia in more than ten years. Its almost as if he picked up the telephone, called the kremlin and said, give me something, anything, whether its true or not about donald trump. I think in the end he was simply, said russian disinformation, with little tidbits of truth which is classic russian disinformation. The truth was just Public Information that anybody could find on the internet. Host did Christopher Steele or john brennan and the obama appointees, did they use allies like britz and others to try to handle some of this dark spot places they could come like wash their hands of the fact this information with being dredged up to try to stop trump . Guest you know, the cia, then under john brennan, the director, they are not allowed under u. S. Law to spy on american citizens. They are prohibited from that but its strange how they seem to be able to. Well, it did. The outsourced it to foreign governments and people in Foreign Countries, and they were able to lower some key people in the trump campaign. Lure. They were minor ticket but the regard them as key people, overseas so that they could feed them information that could be used to justify their investigation. And they used confidential informants like a long time cia asset, the professor by the name of stephan in great britain. And then the fbi or the cia, would a quite sure, since in an fbi analyst under a fake name by the name of astroturf was described as a sexy bottle blonde to seduce George Papadopoulos who is a peripheral volunteer junior advisor on the trump campaign. What the end of getting is is not incriminating information because there was no incriminating. What they got was exculpatory information which was then sedulously hidden host in the backyard. Amazing other works. But in order to understand this kind of rotten stench, i dont like saying it, that comes from a lot of law, really high up Law Enforcement officials, government, you kind of have to wind the tape back, all the way back. Not all the way back to all the clinton scandals because thats a long tape, but the Hillary Clinton, the benghazi real tragedy, her decision to keep silvers in the bathroom servers in the bathroom of their home, her decision to have an outside the normal government process to collect emails and data. All of that which obviously becomes quite a scandal as mueller, as the fbi director, has to excuse me, comey is the fbi director, has to figure how to handle all this scandal . You have to go back there because in reading your book again, i felt i was every movement of that reading it again is quite extraordinary the result of all of that. Tell the listeners the story. Guest well, chapter one is entitled a tale of two cases and compares the clinton investigation to the trump investigation. And it demonstrates the disparity of treatment, the unequal prosecution and justice that is dispensed not based on the law but based on politics and partisanship, so she is never sworn in any of this process . Guest no. The bottom line is that Hillary Clinton committed multiple acts of, they constitute felonies. Its abundantly clear. She had a private server. Its a violation of the espionage act, classified information is stored in her home. And for people who say, that james comey said theres no similar case that somebody has been prosecuted for that. I need all the individuals that a been prosecuted for exactly what Hillary Clinton did. So when comeys stood up and said no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case, thats just not true. Reasonable prosecutors have brought innumerable cases. Comey knew what clinton did was a crime, multiple crimes. In fact, 11010 crimes representing 110 classified documents stored in her home. And he actually wrote a statement too much before shes even interviewed and 70 of the key people or. And in it he uses the language of the espionage act. She was grossly negligent. But then he presents that statement to stefan says, but i still want to clear her. The staff says you cant clear her if he just found her guilty of a crime under the espionage act. So a pivotal date occurs in which peter strzok sits down at his computer with his lover, lisa page standing over his shoulder, and he eliminates the incriminating words, grossly negligent, and substitute something that is actually under the law identical and synonymous, but it sounds different and its not in the criminal code, extremely careless, which had been barred from barack obama. And based on that he cleared Hillary Clinton. He twisted the facts and contorted the law to clear her. Host doesnt he later say he was ordered to do that . Guest yes. By the department of justice, headed up by Loretta Lynch who just before comey clears clinton, meets on the tarmac in the plane with bill clinton but yeah, theyre just talk about grandkids and golfing. Host and she owes much of her success and career im sure to her own ability but also to be much of a close ally to bill clinton. Guest he elevated her and she eventually became the attorney general might be advanced or career. She then pretends to recuse herself from the case but she doesnt actually recuse herself from the case. Host there are people who dont like the clintons, didnt vote for Hillary Clinton, who really get into the whole dynamics of this story. We have a lot of people watching the show who are supporters of faith may be a story, a book with the title witch hunt might want to just bring out the worst of what Hillary Clinton did. I would have to play theres a lot to write about in terms of that. But why does it matter . So she breaks the espionage act she says she does this but for a matter of convenience. We have our devices and its nice was more convenient is the less convenient. Why was it a problem to keep her emails vulnerable . Guest jeopardize National Security. So as i explained in the book, documents subsequent to her being cleared demonstrated that Foreign Countries obtained her emails. Host and that would come through in the testimony. Guest yes. And classified documents as well. That jeopardizes our National Security. Thats the whole purpose of the espionage act. Host when President Trump before he was president on the Campaign Said maybe china could his point was she said she delete the emails. Theres no record of these emails, its a fact our enemies read emails. They probably have copies of emails. It was ironic, tragic but maybe truthful that copies trekkie they it did. He was referring to russia, if you have are missing emails, let us know. It was obvious he said in just, but it turns out it was likely true that some of the hacked emails ended up in russian hands because they were hacked to a russian server. Host the other piece of this i think is hard for people who support the clintons and voted for Hillary Clinton is, so what . This was about hot yoga and wedding plans and where are we going to meet for dinner. With all the research you did, and this is quite an Extensive Research project, are the indications that the emails were destroyed because they were Sensitive Conversations about things like benghazi and things as a candidate for the highest office in the land would even allegedly damaging had people known . Guest well, she wasnt entirely successful in destroying the 33,000 emails that, that by itself would be shocked and justice because congress had asked her to preserve it. When you defy congress with a subpoena attached to it, thats obstruction of justice by what she literally said of the week they were not under subpoena. He reprimanded president. Did she destroy these emails after congress have made it very clear they wanted to see them . Guest congress have sent in writing a request to preserve evidence, so thats official. Thats obstruction of justice. It turns out some of the emails she destroyed turned up elsewhere and some of them contain very sensitive government information. So it wasnt yoga and wedding plans. Host are the all public . Guest not all, no. Her explanation is simply untrue. And yet in addition to violating the espionage act, and the evidence is overwhelming that she did, she destroyed documents that congress had demanded, and when you receive a preservation letter, you have to abide by it, not only that, i miss warmer, it official. My wife just recently left government service. This is her second go around. You have an obligation to retain records so you dont need a letter from congress or from an ig or anyone to notify you that you should keep records. You are told immediately that you have to keep those records. The reason is because when you work for and administration or as a cabinet secretary, secretary of state, my lord, everyday is history. The taxpayer has a right to be able to have a process whereby everyone gets to see that information because its part of our history. Guest the foundation of democracy is transparency and accountability. And under the federal records act, anything you do in writing in the course and scope of your employment as a public official is not your property. Its the government and the american peoples property. There was nothing on Hillary Clinton state Department Email account, empty, zero. Everything she did in the course and scope of her employment was kept in her home on a private server. And doesnt mention, youre jeopardizing National Security that shes also violating federal law. And she signed a document on her first day in office as secretary of state saying i understand these rules. She received a tutorial on heres the law you must follow it pictures ive actually two separate documents acknowledging it and saying i will abide by it. But she already knew that from her serve and the United States senate, having received the same instructions about how you have to reserve documents and you cannot jeopardize National Security by leaking them. Tremor and as firstly as well. Guest she well knew the rules rules and she ignored them with impunity because she felt she was above the law and that the rules just dont apply to her. Host you are a boy. What is your legal background . Guest i was a defense attorney for many years in san francisco. Host a lot of people to defend out there. Guest yesterday most of my clients are still behind bars. , thats a lawyer joke. Guest thats a lawyer joke. I taught law in law school. My point is if you look at this black letter law, you know, you sign the document, which as Hillary Clinton herself, and iv educated lawyer, you know what the doctor docusate. Youve been through very senior government jobs, community of e concept of records because there is a library that overhangs the river there in little rock. In all about records because they have a whole is in that houses the you dont get to pick and choose what those records are. If its hillary with a different surname, what kind of legal penalties with someone face . Guest inevitable federal indictment issued by a grand jury. And, frankly, its a slamdunk case. Host Loretta Lynch and knows this and james comey knows this. What intervenes as you said to make that stop . You believe it stopped at Loretta Lynch juicing over to the fbi, hey, were not going to prosecute this . This is a matter, and investigation . Guest we know former top officials at the fbi, but who was at the time all of this unfolded testified behind closed doors, that testament has since been released, very few journalists have actually read it. I have dug through it all. Youre talking thousands of pages of testimony, but, for example, lesa page at the fbi admitted under oath that they were told by the department of justice that no charges were going to be brought against Hillary Clinton. You know, comey stood in front of cameras and said the department of justice doesnt know what im about to do. They knew. They were directing it. Host so a lot of people believe that nothing like this could happen without the president , the Vice President being aware of that. Your research, you couldnt find any proof of that, people just have to surmise how high up the food chain this went. Guest as i lay out the facts in the book, witch hunt, when the change in comeys exoneration statement was made to clear her, first implicated her then clearing her, and he seemed pretty upset about that publicly. Not emotional but seem like he was fitful because it was strangely uncomfortable and is being so aggressive. It all came to an interview that barack obama had done several months before actual on fox news but he given another one and sit pretty much the same thing. This was sort of a public instruction, i do want Hillary Clinton to be prosecuted. He said that what she had done was careless. Thats the language that comey eventually adopted after finding she was in violation of the law, gross negligence. Host you think the fbi director would listen to the words the president would use . Guest he did work in fact, h