I will keuh call you george. If that is okay. You may. Thank you. Of all things. University looms large in your book. Princeton. The story of 3 trin stone princ. You can know all of american political thought an argument between madison of class of 1771 and Woodrow Wilson of 1879. Madison the giver of our institutional architecture and natural right doctrine, and wilson most thoughtful of those who rejected this. It is to their credit they not kill one another. He did it whole architecture of thseparation was power when thee were fewer of us. But now wire great country, united by steel, rails and copper wires, we need a more nimble government that could act with dispatch under a president , like wilson. Third princeton your princeton, you attended. I did. You did your thd thesis on the investigation of this. Yes, beyond the majority, a phrase from second of flag cases where Supreme Court after three years reversed first one. Say it is permissible under First Amendment to not permissible to force joe jehovah within children to salute the flag, in his opinion, justice jackson, away from the politics. , i am arguing about, whether america is about a process majority rule or a condition. I come down for liberty. In a way, this started in my mind i think before princeton, i grew up in central illinois. You you mayo marinated in spirif lincoln there, i grew up in scham paichampagne county, in ts courthouse, lincoln first learned about the passage of the kansas nebraska act. Product of another illinoisian. Douglas. It was lincolns protracted recoil again the canad can a. To territories, it was that launched his career in my judgment the greatest year in history of World Politics he said some things are beyond the reach of majorities, property and humans are one of those. Coolidge said one with the law on his side is the majority. You write my subject is american conservativconservativeconserva. My belief that wilson was most important single figure in largely Successful Campaign to convince the nation that the mad sonnian per scwaigdz. What is that . Mad sonnian persuasion is first of all doctrine of natural rights our rights precede government, not given by government. I think you could argue. That most important word in declaration of independents is secure, all men are created equal. Governments are instituted to secure the rights, first the rights then the government. From this follows a limitation on what government is for, to protect the sovereignty of the individual and his exercise as a rights bearing creature of his rights. This is what progressives rebelled against. Rooted in a fantasy of a state of nature that never existed. And they said, therefore if well have a sufficientlia. Sufficientl, ambitious government, we need a government that is not limited to the securing rights but delivers. So, you you return to the theme in the book that the madisonian persuasion and separation of power, hinge on this assertion there is something called human nature. As i put it, human nature has no history. And that right. Great large not meaning beneficial achievement of 19 sense the idea that human nature has a history, human nature is history, we have no human nature, human cret creatus that can aquirr acquire culture. About which you have. Let me explain it more. Why does madisonian persuasion, hinge on this idea that human nature is a constant . Not a changing thing. No. It is important. Looking back from founders. Having seen all of the atrocities. When totalitarians came to power said well create new soviet m man. They a wonderful thing that government could now do, it can shape consciousness of the people. Armed with certain modern techniques, bureaucracy, technologies of communication, radio to hitler and movies to hitler and the rest. By working back from our experience at consciousness raiders and impropers of 21st century, founders said, it is important to know what government it good for and what it is not, it is not good for dealing with human beings. Begin with as they are, interested crete iresed crea. Yes. I call book whic conservative sensibility. Why sensibility. This is more than an attitude, less than an agenda. It is a way of seeing and experiencing and responding to events, whether particular sensibility, conservative is comfortable with spontaneous orders of society, comfortable with Market Driven uncertainties of an open future. God created man and woman then lost control. A conservative like that fact that it out of control, someone said, what is your doctrine. I like the world, i like sent of who knows what is coming next, that is the point. We dont want to know what is coming next, that would mean that future is plans therefore it closed. You want to welcome whirl. If you will, that is conservative sensibility. I once put it. That defining feature of wh conservativetism it is comfort with yes. Willing too understand that there is a down side to every good thing, and there is an upside to almost every bad thing that discomforts people. Progressivism grew to confidence and co consciousnessf itself. When science was in the air, and applied science, ford, marconi, edison, the wright b twaer andso eithers al brothers, they would going to plan things, too you need planners and mean. 1 we get right kind of people. With right kind of power. We will do right kind of knowledge, all will be will. Um. So. Among many of mine friends on right these days who are very simp though thetic too idea of a conservative national implement chemical is seems to be riding high in saddle. It feels in the moment to come forever a lot of people, you almost have that issue a trigger warning before you say it this idea that america is an idea. You come down strongly that. Horizohas mr. Lincoln said. Or thatcher said. To that end, you writer, more americans arguing that right not from common law of ingland but natural rights. When adams asked how to we, derive our laws, not from parliament, not from common law, but in law of nature. In an america this was discovered. You add america was not granted of king by his grace but earnedbl by the planningers, and you say americans have not brought their rights with them but they had it as it were found them in the wilderness. I am in a fray are gray area bee twtwo camps. What to you say, one of reason they rebelled they were being denied their english rights and liberties. Is there no room for saying that was an evolved thing that american nation was a nation before an idea. It did evolve, and americans began their resistance to the british. Thinthinking they wanted to be english men. By the time of july 4, 1776. It was different. They said, no, we dont want to be english any more. If english said, all right, they would say no, it of too late by then. They had come too understand they were as a people, they were a people. They were different. Um. Okay, so, yeah, so. In a since they come up with the idea of well, but that idea has deep roots back to english culture. Sure. Right. Okay. American present was pre pret with immediate future too translate fact they had opinion colonists and discovered, that they were mere than that in the wilderness. , an example that i use, is 4 amendment has roots in quirky english culture where sovereign could not enter someones put without permission, that gets refined to, mans home is his castle and all that. Founders as i would put it, they drew on the english culture and custom. But they put it in a sens centre is that about right. Right. Lets move to fun part. I have long considered myself the honorary chairman of International Order of Woodrow Wilson haters. In one sense the chapter of wilson was a great comfort and i cheered often what is your grief against wilson was in the meat of it. Years ago at princeton, africanamerican students wilsons retro grade use on ra race. Became up in arms about him. Renamed the school. Wilson college and all rest. I offered to come to princeton and offered to teach them too really dislike him. He was proe progressive. That freedom of the he said history of freedom is history of limit the government. He did not think that future of freedom was that. He had this believe he got. In application of expertise, him and his friends applied them to society. He began as i say as first president too criticize american founding say we have turned a corner, and that america must get over its founding. Premises pr produce the architecture. I think last time i did one of these interviews with cspan was with levin. Wilson gets a lot of his thinking in german hi history implement higism, hewould be a e people. In order to get an advance degree in second half of 19 century, you had too go to to germany. And wilson did not but a lot of pihis professors did. Those scholars, who within to germany came back with a robust faith in german bureaucracy. And state. As a disinterested application of knowledge. And fulfill that began too feel that United States needed to kind of state. To subsume the fashions of america make us a united people. So hom home genius and so unite, but worry about majority rule and minority being in press it not work. Were a Mature Society with a broad consensus. That is to some of my disappointment is that true scope of wilson oppression of minorities, Political Prisoners in jail. And what we did to germans here. My point is that my appetite for wilson bashing is fairly unsabeunsaythible. I started being interested in this stuff. I went and i read early review, i read and i read a lot of the modern american conservatism. It is a strange laguna where way modern American Movement that begins after world war ii talks about history of progressivism, it started in 1932 was not much attention played too wilson. Why did it take conservatives to realize they were walking into movie half way in and that there new deal is just an extension of what happened under wilson. They forget who roosevelt was. He came to washington to serve in wilson administration. He was kate up in survey, and versailles uphoria and the rest. What contemporary conservatives in 19 very difficult to find people who qualify i guess my question, people who qualgu quas conservatives in 20s, 30s, 40s, if was even into 50, part of standard conservative entitlement of progressivism to start with wilson, do you have any idea why he was invisible to conservative for so long. I dont know why, he was invisible. It is a fact that for a great many people 52 thes people peop. These years. Reacted against roosevelt, he was not the first modern president , the first modern president was real, it was if not wilson it was Teddy Roosevelt. He had a fear of the presidency. He was responsible for the public good, period. And a huge explosion of executive power has been rippling through since. You were. To radio roosevelt. I the germ was in wilson. With his idea purpose of a president to interpret the real will and real interest of the american public. And president s were situated to do that. Um. Probably the most surprising to some or controversial to some, you come out in favoar of favorf judicial supervision. Their is now where spirit of ed madison has a chance to work its will. It is a 180 degree change of mine. In school. All of the Wendell Holmes is one of progress of pin ups, he said people want to go to hell i will help home, it is my job, he meant, america is about majority real, if they want it, they should get it, but if they should or not they will get it. He was a great believer of physics of politics. For years my intelligence was bewitched by my language. Because, in reaction against some of the more imagine 5 discoveries of rights, and reforms for the constitution. People say that is judicial activism. Therefore year for judicial passivism, this is a form of dereliction of duty, you need the judiciary supervision of democracy. I want to get to that in a second. Jim crow, was local democracy in action. Jim crow laws were poply with white majority that imminented d them, then Supreme Court said we dont care. Supreme court was right. I am with you there. Interesting fact, most interesting arguments are not between liberals or progressive, they are among conservatives, wonderful man at that cato u instate, clark neel. Another question, i oliver weWendell Holmes had really complicated views on some things, on his judicial position, do you think that homes would have been in favor of judicial restrain if are gressives yes. He got his political philosophy. He within through the war. He merged as someone who thought that universe was a stark deadly force ridden place. Get over it. I think as he said, if people want to go to hell ill help them it is my job. Back to the idea. The da declaration of independes some way more american document. Human there are were all equal. In the eyes of government. Cannot supersede rights that are prior. Bill of rights starts gaming that. Congress shall pass no law. Individual rights are more important. But. The idea idea of judiciary supervision when majority encroach on individual liberty, or the or natural right. Regard lets of majority courts should side with the individual against any institutions government. Any laws, that infringe on these . Right. That would be hard to i am a soft libertarian, i say, before the government interferes with freedom of the individual or if two or more individual collaborate should have a good reasons, tell us what it is,. If government thoroughly explained itself, they would quit doing it people would say, you cannot be serious. A lot of so, you come out i in you side that locker in decision Supreme Court decision in 19 wore 191905,was correct well s a radio active Supreme Court decision. Lockner is cited by progressives as an example of judicial imperialism run amom anamong. Large and unionized bakn new york got a law passed restricting number of hours that could be worked in bakeries, they pretend it was public health. It was an attempt to disadvantage the smaller bakeries, that work longer hours not unionize z and to to both. Stay nonunion and work longer to survive. Court recognized that this was botbogus. It was rent seeking they overturned it. And i think that was correctly decided. A few of us do. David bernstein is a wonderful book rehabilitating lockner, and were going to win that one sooner ear later. Soonerree or later. This dynamic. Conspiring to bend the law to protect them. Zuckerberg said he would be in favor of government regulation. Of course he would. He is a major player. Right. Head of u. S. Steel, called socialization of steel agent. He gist mean mefnght meant takes competition. You can prevent government sanctions that. Of saying that this faction now has protection of the state. Concern i have about this may be a wake connecttion. With this idea of making the Judicial Branch more powerful that dangers of faction are on the president. And so the trouble that you see in the Administrative State or congress, there will be new problem that come by giving ours more power. There is no safe haven in life, question is, what do you fear most. I fear Administrative State and executive state. And congress that has willie nil i delegated a way, hours away it has no right to delegate away. I fear the courts least. Okay, that so fair. Talk about Administrative State. You use magic phrase. Public choice theory. Invented by jame pe pew canon because bucanad bucacun, said gt is not a disinterested thing, as people in prihave the va privato maximize their income, in public they try to their profit, government itself is a faction. It is interested it is full of people trying to maximize their influence, and power. And once you have this new government. And you understand that most of what government does. Not in response to majorities. Majorities have no idea. Host of what government is doing. It is in response to intense compact or wealthy and well lawyered minorities. You see that government must be looked atlanta a problem. Looked at as a problem. Well put. Law of benefits. Costs, sugar quotas on hold up price of sugar to benefit few, sugar growers, we disperse cost of billions of dollars across all consumers in america who eat sugar, and no one notices. But for the very grateful compact minorities of sugar growers. Lets talk about Administrative State that is apparatus most responsive to this or most manifest itself most to this dynamic. Reason why 5 of 10 richest counties in america. Are in washington, we dont making any but for trouble. We have no natural re resources but we have a lot of money. The biggest picnic in the world is federal budget and ants are business groups. So. Just on court part for a moment. You have what i call. Succinct answers. I am with you on the decay of the in our society of adherence to the vision of the founders. Founders. Would is only lasting solution to problem you describe to get American People themselves to care more. Absolutely. At the end of the day, judges are appointed by and confirm by elected politicians and at end of the day, if you really lasting changes change the mood of the country and values of and worries. That elected officials wil will produce. I dont all that often give barack obama a lot of credit for things, a thing he said that upsets a lot on right said that only thing that gives constitution any power is our faith in it. That is the essence of madison. Bheft boomadmadisons metro gno. He said majority should ruling they will rule, therefore. Care must be taken that majority brand is slowed and and refined so what we have, mitigated democracy. So. Madison understood this. People who believe in the judicial supervision of democracy believe this. Those of who believe that john marshall, who invented basically judiciary reviews. We understand that it all rests as my hero lyn lincoln said, everyone rests on public opinion. Public opinion is shiftable stand, you and i in business of trying to shift the stand stand. Is one of the thing i appreciate most about vision is eco system. That most peoples interests in front of their faces, where they live. Most solution are close to where they live. And a highly society, im if if there is one thing i am agents in all of Public Policy discussions is, one of better phrase philosophical motive. One thing only important thing. And great about madisonian visioned that allows for people po live the way they want. And. They will have a different opinion of good lives. A major problem we have t