Transcripts For CSPAN2 After Words Jonathan Karl Front Row A

About this wonderful book you have written. I want to start with you by the beginning and end of the book. You have two different encounters with donald trump or the first is when you are a young cub reporter and the lasses when youre obviously a big white house hotshot reporter. But described this to different encounters with trump i think that is kind of the ark of the book. It goes between those two. s really incredible book ends. The first was i was in my 20s, working for the New York Post. As actually assigned to city hull there was a guy there a mayor at that time who would just become mayor called rudy giuliani. [laughter] somebody who we might know. Smack yes. There is this absolutely unbelievable story that had gripped new york city at the moment. Its not story is particularly interested as working for the New York Post and its all my editors cared about. News had just broken that Michael Jackson, the king of pop had just married lisa marie presley, Elvis Presleys daughter. They had married in secret, they had not been seen in public yet, and they were staying at trump tower. [laughter] so in this news broke out, everybody was there, the paparazzi, all the curiosity seekers. This is new york city. So and its the New York Post. So in the late Michael Jackson is at his peak of popularity at this moment. So theres a crowd around trump tower became so intense they put a Police Cordon around the block. People had to get across the street because it was just too many people trying to get in there and trying to get a glimpse of the newlyweds. So not donald trump . So not donald trump this is Michael Jackson and that was presleys daughter for god sake. They are saying at trump tower. I am city hull, nobody cares whats going on at city hull at this moment particularly not at the New York Post. So unaware think how can i get a piece of the story. I called up this number for the Trump Organization is just a General Number i didnt know donald trump i didnt have any connection to donald trump oc young reported ointment at the poster seven or eight months i was a new reporter in town on a call the number and i said can i talk to donald trump. [laughter] i was connected to norma who was as a gatekeeper at the time his longtime press secretary practically a member of the trump family. She had the desk right outside of his office there on the 206th floor of 12 trump tower. Everything went there norma i didnt know to the time she was a voice on the end of the phone i said ive got a story to pitch to mr. Trump i said why with the most famous newlyweds in the world want to have their honeymoon it trump tower . And she passed it on. I got a call back almost immediately from trump himself. I didnt know how he would respond but he said come on over, can you come now . So i am at the New York Post office and you know manhattan at that point it was down so thats Lower Manhattan so Lower Manhattan, south street other side of chinatown. I tell my editor ive got this in there like okay great. They sent me with the photographer, Frances Becker we hustled our way up to midtown. Got to the police court over immediately let through. I was brought up to his office, theres a photo in the book, which is a little embarrassing. You look like the kid that you were at that time. [laughter] and i remember at the time, he comes and hes like let me show you around, let me show you why they are here. The story, by the way, we also have a picture of the front page article that was written about the secret honeymoon hideaway for michael and lisa marie, it was massive coverage in the paper. I had like five pages inside. We went to rant we met michaels bodyguards, he showed me the secret tunnels they got innout of trump tower to avoid all the people outside. He showed me their secret getaway car which is probably not a good thing. He was showing and telling me where everybody lived in trump tower all the other famous people. Spielberg, andrew lloyd webber, the British Royal family, sophia loren, pointed out where they all were. We actually ran inside a drawing of trump tower with arrows pointing to the apartments owned by these various people who are probably trying to be discreet. But it was something else. That one point in the middle of the tour, trump said do what a picture . Im like yes and got my photographer dont you see were taking pictures . I did nobody talked about was obvious he wondered if i wanted to take a picture of him. As a journalist you dont stop in the middle of it interview and say can we get a shot together . So yourself a very. So the picture was snapped in you see it in the book. I actually had this picture i put it in a frame back when i was living in new york 25 years ago. And then when i moved to d. C. A few years later, i threw it in a box with a bunch of old photos. It was only after trump became president i wondered i still had that picture. I broke it out. Its an amazing moment because he looks, but captured in this picture because he looks exactly the same. Its a little bit heavier now maybe a little thinner back then. But is wearing the same type of suit, the long red tights a little longer than anyone else would wear, the hair is essentially the same he has this expression i have seen in a thousand pictures that he is taken, now behind the resolute desk in the oval office. But i was thinking as i was writing this book, when almost done i got some into the oval office to meet the president. So thats the bookends. I was president of the White House Correspondents and he had some complaints specifically about a story i had done and also about one had that had run in the Washington Post over labor day weekend, by the way. I dont know how many other people even notice the story or noticed my story but he was keenly aware both of them. And had some things he wanted to raise with us. We were brought into the oval office. I described the scene as one of the odder moments in a time when there have been many odd moments. You know, you spent a lot of time there as White House Press secretary. I was brought in by the press secretary. And the chief of staff, this was Stephanie Grisham and nick mulvaney. I brought into my colleagues off the board, zeke, we are brought into the oval the oval office was empty we were asked to sit in the three chairs in front of the desperate and then we were told to wait. And then mulvaney and Stephanie Grisham left us in the oval office. I dont know how many times, you work there, i dont know how may times you were in the oval office alone. But i have never been in the oval office alone. The doors were closed, it was just the three of us. I cannot tell you exactly how long it was. He think it was two or three minutes, but it felt like an hour. Zeke muller with ap leans over to me and says what are we doing . We are definitely being taped, we are being watched. We just sat there in silence. And then the president came back in and we had this meeting that lasted upwards of an hour. I, at one point sat there thinking, here i am sitting across the resolute desk from the president of the United States was donald trump. And 25 years ago, almost to the day, 25 years earlier, i had been with him in trump tower running around trying to find Michael Jacksons bodyguards and doing this kind of gossip tour of celebrity apartments in his building. You know, who could have imagined that i would end up where i was, and he would end up where he was. Here i was, a really junior tabloid reporter in new york city. He was this flamboyant developer and like to get his name in the tabloids. And then 25 years, almost to the day, later i am the president of the White House Correspondent sitting across the desk from that former flamboyant velpar, donald trump is president of the United States. I just said the whole story, the incredible story of how we went from that moment to that final moment is really what front row at the trump show is about. So there is a seductive quality that kind of rings through all of this which is he, one time is declaring you to be an enemy of the people. I want you to talk a little bit about that. At the same time he is looking for approval and engagement and wanting to be involved, and to have some kind of relationship with the people he is dealing within the media. Its a fascinating position of the role he plays. I think you see that play out and you write about that in the book a lot. What is that light . Hes got the simultaneous quality of wanting to declare the press to be fake news, an enemy of the people, the same time looking for your personal approval and wanting to engage you to be kind of pals with you. It is weird, weird thing. It is fascinating because i have had the incredible privilege of being a reporter, who has covered white house for four different residents. As only in their bit, when you were there i was a junior cnn reporter is occasionally sent to fill in but i remember being there with you during the chaos of the Monica Lewinsky scandal. So dont remind me. [laughter] so and george w. Bush and barack obama, now this. Every one of those president s complained about press coverage. Everyone complained the press focused on, it was way too negative, didnt see the great accomplishments of the administration. That is standard operating procedure. Trumps attacks far beyond any of that. If any me of the people which is a phrase i spent a little bit of time in the book about the origins of that phrase, its a very ugly phrase that has been used by stalin, used by hitler, used during the french revolution to justify the beheadings of people by guillotine. Talk a little bit more about that thats one of the most important parts of the book you do that at some length in a couple of chapters and you really go through what a noxious phrase that is if you look back at the history of that talk about that a little bit. So i spent some time look into the origins of the phrase. It was jews quite prominently during the french revolution. Thats really the most significant place. So people got beheaded. And basically the justification was the people who were targeted by the law under which were found guilty and beheaded, the actual law they use that phrase enemy of the people. I document the use of it during the reign of terror when blood was flowing in the streets of paris. And then the other place, the next place i saw was with in germany the sites that gave hitler his powers i go back and find this article but it was an Associated Press article on the front page of the New York Times and many other places around the world the lead paragraph you see the National Socialist party making the case anybody votes against this is enemy of the people. You have the knots hes using the phrase. And then you see a bit later used by joseph stalin. Im not saying Donald Trump New this was the history behind this phrase, certainly pointed out by a lot of people that it has this really dark, morbid, deadly history that keeps using it. The whole notion of it, the act of being an aggressive reporter, trying to hold those in power accountable you are essentially a traitor to your country. I would argue it is the exact opposite, this is an essential part of using the phrase its what keeps america great. The flipside you allude to is this is a president who consumes more news than any of those president s. He knows the reporters he reads the stories, he watches the news coverage. He once privately. [inaudible] was the greatest invention of mankind because all of the shows on his dvr, and he watches. He sees how he is being portrayed. You know, i recall him, one point, phil rutgers was a really good reporter, that a press conference the president made reference to a story that phil had written before the new york primary. In 2016 about the Staten Island ferry where phil went in and he viewed people on the Staten Island ferry in their people who really like to donald trump. He wrote this story about it. I did not even see the story. Trumps not only sell the store and read it, its now been a couple years earlier, he becomes president and goes through all he is been through and sees phil rutgers, not nearly a household name by the way, hes a great reporter we all know them. Like you have that story you wrote about the Staten Island ferry that was a wonderful story. It is a mind blowing knows the reporters, he knows them. Ive known them for a long time but most people in that room by name. He knows what they have done. Many of them probably gotten phone calls from him to complain about something that was written or to offer something up. Barack obama, people on the right say there is the immediate was infatuated with obama, first about the Obama White House complained bitterly about the White House Press. So every president going back to George Washington complains about press coverage was nothing new with any of that. Smack nothing new but obama would come into that Briefing Room and do a press conference. I swear he did not know more than a handful he had no idea who is in the room. I remember at one point he was like he gets the list of questions from his press secretary of who to call in from his press secretary. Which some president s do some dont. That was the practice with obama the press secretary would say heres alicia collen, iron but one point looking down his list and eight reads the name of the ap reported he looks up like where is . Of course the ap reporter sitting right in front thats apc. You would think he would know the ap reporter. But no idea, no idea. George w. Bush, he did know the personalities he did know the people, he knew the camera opera some of them if theyd been on the campaign. Donald trump, he consumes the news, he is fascinated by it he relishes it, hes talked about his marveled many times some publicly some not about how many time he dominates the front page of the New York Times, paper he likes to attack. But he is so proud of the fact that when hes on the front page of the time really even if its negative. He is there has been covered. Its a fascinating dichotomy. Its a weird, lovehate relationship in some ways. Let me ask you a question. As you mentioned your privately involved in the White House Correspondents association and have a leadership position there. But why hasnt the press corps more aggressively challenged this war that he has declared on you . Hes declared you to be the enemy of the people. Why havent you fought back more aggressively . So first of all i think there has been fighting back on that. I when he first used the phrase, i went on, i was anchoring her sunday show with George Stephanopoulos that sunday. I did a thing at the end of the program where he pointed out the history of the phrase, and pushed back aggressively. Also doing that is not easy. Its not the role, no journalist feels like they want to be making the news. They want to report the news. I think thats part of the dilemma, right . So we are not the resistance. We are not the Opposition Party. That was the phrase i talk about steve bannon was the first of the Opposition Party and then trump grabbed onto that. We cant act like the Opposition Party would do have to push back and i do push back on this. Specially my roles representing the White House Press corps, when the stuff gets dangerous, when it is over the top, it needs to be called out. There is an incident where there is an event for approach Trump Organization at one of the president s properties in florida. They actually, they had an exhibit where they played this video clip it was a doctor seen from a movie it showed somebody in a church firing, using killing newspeople. And democrats. It was horrific. Youve got to call the stuff out. It is actually dangerous. We saw with the guy who sent the pipe bombs poorly made to cnn that there will be people. I have said this to the president directly. I recount that at the end of the book. There are sick people who will take these words literally and to heart. And hurt people. Its dangerous. Its particularly irresponsible coming from the person with the biggest pulpit of all coming from the president. You raise that with the white house staff with the press secretary with other people so yes one thing you have to recognize with this white house and its another theme of the book is donald trump does seek out advice. He does listen to people. But ultimately he goes in his own direction sometimes he takes the advice sometimes he doesnt but he truly is he is his own chief of staff. , john kelly tried to change that, had some moderate success. Hes his own National Security adviser, you saw that with john bolton, john boltons National Security adviser in the president s going on diametrically opposed on several major hot button issues. He certainly is his own communication secretary so taco little bit about that, you know the press of briefing is a subject i obviously care about having done many of them myself. He has now turned the press Briefing Room into his platform for delivering a daily message. Hes not out doing rallies and things like that. Why do we need to have a New York Post<\/a>. As actually assigned to city hull there was a guy there a mayor at that time who would just become mayor called rudy giuliani. [laughter] somebody who we might know. Smack yes. There is this absolutely unbelievable story that had gripped new york city at the moment. Its not story is particularly interested as working for the New York Post<\/a> and its all my editors cared about. News had just broken that Michael Jackson<\/a>, the king of pop had just married lisa marie presley, Elvis Presleys<\/a> daughter. They had married in secret, they had not been seen in public yet, and they were staying at trump tower. [laughter] so in this news broke out, everybody was there, the paparazzi, all the curiosity seekers. This is new york city. So and its the New York Post<\/a>. So in the late Michael Jackson<\/a> is at his peak of popularity at this moment. So theres a crowd around trump tower became so intense they put a Police Cordon<\/a> around the block. People had to get across the street because it was just too many people trying to get in there and trying to get a glimpse of the newlyweds. So not donald trump . So not donald trump this is Michael Jackson<\/a> and that was presleys daughter for god sake. They are saying at trump tower. I am city hull, nobody cares whats going on at city hull at this moment particularly not at the New York Post<\/a>. So unaware think how can i get a piece of the story. I called up this number for the Trump Organization<\/a> is just a General Number<\/a> i didnt know donald trump i didnt have any connection to donald trump oc young reported ointment at the poster seven or eight months i was a new reporter in town on a call the number and i said can i talk to donald trump. [laughter] i was connected to norma who was as a gatekeeper at the time his longtime press secretary practically a member of the trump family. She had the desk right outside of his office there on the 206th floor of 12 trump tower. Everything went there norma i didnt know to the time she was a voice on the end of the phone i said ive got a story to pitch to mr. Trump i said why with the most famous newlyweds in the world want to have their honeymoon it trump tower . And she passed it on. I got a call back almost immediately from trump himself. I didnt know how he would respond but he said come on over, can you come now . So i am at the New York Post<\/a> office and you know manhattan at that point it was down so thats Lower Manhattan<\/a> so Lower Manhattan<\/a>, south street other side of chinatown. I tell my editor ive got this in there like okay great. They sent me with the photographer, Frances Becker<\/a> we hustled our way up to midtown. Got to the police court over immediately let through. I was brought up to his office, theres a photo in the book, which is a little embarrassing. You look like the kid that you were at that time. [laughter] and i remember at the time, he comes and hes like let me show you around, let me show you why they are here. The story, by the way, we also have a picture of the front page article that was written about the secret honeymoon hideaway for michael and lisa marie, it was massive coverage in the paper. I had like five pages inside. We went to rant we met michaels bodyguards, he showed me the secret tunnels they got innout of trump tower to avoid all the people outside. He showed me their secret getaway car which is probably not a good thing. He was showing and telling me where everybody lived in trump tower all the other famous people. Spielberg, andrew lloyd webber, the British Royal<\/a> family, sophia loren, pointed out where they all were. We actually ran inside a drawing of trump tower with arrows pointing to the apartments owned by these various people who are probably trying to be discreet. But it was something else. That one point in the middle of the tour, trump said do what a picture . Im like yes and got my photographer dont you see were taking pictures . I did nobody talked about was obvious he wondered if i wanted to take a picture of him. As a journalist you dont stop in the middle of it interview and say can we get a shot together . So yourself a very. So the picture was snapped in you see it in the book. I actually had this picture i put it in a frame back when i was living in new york 25 years ago. And then when i moved to d. C. A few years later, i threw it in a box with a bunch of old photos. It was only after trump became president i wondered i still had that picture. I broke it out. Its an amazing moment because he looks, but captured in this picture because he looks exactly the same. Its a little bit heavier now maybe a little thinner back then. But is wearing the same type of suit, the long red tights a little longer than anyone else would wear, the hair is essentially the same he has this expression i have seen in a thousand pictures that he is taken, now behind the resolute desk in the oval office. But i was thinking as i was writing this book, when almost done i got some into the oval office to meet the president. So thats the bookends. I was president of the White House Correspondent<\/a>s and he had some complaints specifically about a story i had done and also about one had that had run in the Washington Post<\/a> over labor day weekend, by the way. I dont know how many other people even notice the story or noticed my story but he was keenly aware both of them. And had some things he wanted to raise with us. We were brought into the oval office. I described the scene as one of the odder moments in a time when there have been many odd moments. You know, you spent a lot of time there as White House Press<\/a> secretary. I was brought in by the press secretary. And the chief of staff, this was Stephanie Grisham<\/a> and nick mulvaney. I brought into my colleagues off the board, zeke, we are brought into the oval the oval office was empty we were asked to sit in the three chairs in front of the desperate and then we were told to wait. And then mulvaney and Stephanie Grisham<\/a> left us in the oval office. I dont know how many times, you work there, i dont know how may times you were in the oval office alone. But i have never been in the oval office alone. The doors were closed, it was just the three of us. I cannot tell you exactly how long it was. He think it was two or three minutes, but it felt like an hour. Zeke muller with ap leans over to me and says what are we doing . We are definitely being taped, we are being watched. We just sat there in silence. And then the president came back in and we had this meeting that lasted upwards of an hour. I, at one point sat there thinking, here i am sitting across the resolute desk from the president of the United States<\/a> was donald trump. And 25 years ago, almost to the day, 25 years earlier, i had been with him in trump tower running around trying to find Michael Jackson<\/a>s bodyguards and doing this kind of gossip tour of celebrity apartments in his building. You know, who could have imagined that i would end up where i was, and he would end up where he was. Here i was, a really junior tabloid reporter in new york city. He was this flamboyant developer and like to get his name in the tabloids. And then 25 years, almost to the day, later i am the president of the White House Correspondent<\/a> sitting across the desk from that former flamboyant velpar, donald trump is president of the United States<\/a>. I just said the whole story, the incredible story of how we went from that moment to that final moment is really what front row at the trump show is about. So there is a seductive quality that kind of rings through all of this which is he, one time is declaring you to be an enemy of the people. I want you to talk a little bit about that. At the same time he is looking for approval and engagement and wanting to be involved, and to have some kind of relationship with the people he is dealing within the media. Its a fascinating position of the role he plays. I think you see that play out and you write about that in the book a lot. What is that light . Hes got the simultaneous quality of wanting to declare the press to be fake news, an enemy of the people, the same time looking for your personal approval and wanting to engage you to be kind of pals with you. It is weird, weird thing. It is fascinating because i have had the incredible privilege of being a reporter, who has covered white house for four different residents. As only in their bit, when you were there i was a junior cnn reporter is occasionally sent to fill in but i remember being there with you during the chaos of the Monica Lewinsky<\/a> scandal. So dont remind me. [laughter] so and george w. Bush and barack obama, now this. Every one of those president s complained about press coverage. Everyone complained the press focused on, it was way too negative, didnt see the great accomplishments of the administration. That is standard operating procedure. Trumps attacks far beyond any of that. If any me of the people which is a phrase i spent a little bit of time in the book about the origins of that phrase, its a very ugly phrase that has been used by stalin, used by hitler, used during the french revolution to justify the beheadings of people by guillotine. Talk a little bit more about that thats one of the most important parts of the book you do that at some length in a couple of chapters and you really go through what a noxious phrase that is if you look back at the history of that talk about that a little bit. So i spent some time look into the origins of the phrase. It was jews quite prominently during the french revolution. Thats really the most significant place. So people got beheaded. And basically the justification was the people who were targeted by the law under which were found guilty and beheaded, the actual law they use that phrase enemy of the people. I document the use of it during the reign of terror when blood was flowing in the streets of paris. And then the other place, the next place i saw was with in germany the sites that gave hitler his powers i go back and find this article but it was an Associated Press<\/a> article on the front page of the New York Times<\/a> and many other places around the world the lead paragraph you see the National Socialist<\/a> party making the case anybody votes against this is enemy of the people. You have the knots hes using the phrase. And then you see a bit later used by joseph stalin. Im not saying Donald Trump New<\/a> this was the history behind this phrase, certainly pointed out by a lot of people that it has this really dark, morbid, deadly history that keeps using it. The whole notion of it, the act of being an aggressive reporter, trying to hold those in power accountable you are essentially a traitor to your country. I would argue it is the exact opposite, this is an essential part of using the phrase its what keeps america great. The flipside you allude to is this is a president who consumes more news than any of those president s. He knows the reporters he reads the stories, he watches the news coverage. He once privately. [inaudible] was the greatest invention of mankind because all of the shows on his dvr, and he watches. He sees how he is being portrayed. You know, i recall him, one point, phil rutgers was a really good reporter, that a press conference the president made reference to a story that phil had written before the new york primary. In 2016 about the Staten Island<\/a> ferry where phil went in and he viewed people on the Staten Island<\/a> ferry in their people who really like to donald trump. He wrote this story about it. I did not even see the story. Trumps not only sell the store and read it, its now been a couple years earlier, he becomes president and goes through all he is been through and sees phil rutgers, not nearly a household name by the way, hes a great reporter we all know them. Like you have that story you wrote about the Staten Island<\/a> ferry that was a wonderful story. It is a mind blowing knows the reporters, he knows them. Ive known them for a long time but most people in that room by name. He knows what they have done. Many of them probably gotten phone calls from him to complain about something that was written or to offer something up. Barack obama, people on the right say there is the immediate was infatuated with obama, first about the Obama White House<\/a> complained bitterly about the White House Press<\/a>. So every president going back to George Washington<\/a> complains about press coverage was nothing new with any of that. Smack nothing new but obama would come into that Briefing Room<\/a> and do a press conference. I swear he did not know more than a handful he had no idea who is in the room. I remember at one point he was like he gets the list of questions from his press secretary of who to call in from his press secretary. Which some president s do some dont. That was the practice with obama the press secretary would say heres alicia collen, iron but one point looking down his list and eight reads the name of the ap reported he looks up like where is . Of course the ap reporter sitting right in front thats apc. You would think he would know the ap reporter. But no idea, no idea. George w. Bush, he did know the personalities he did know the people, he knew the camera opera some of them if theyd been on the campaign. Donald trump, he consumes the news, he is fascinated by it he relishes it, hes talked about his marveled many times some publicly some not about how many time he dominates the front page of the New York Times<\/a>, paper he likes to attack. But he is so proud of the fact that when hes on the front page of the time really even if its negative. He is there has been covered. Its a fascinating dichotomy. Its a weird, lovehate relationship in some ways. Let me ask you a question. As you mentioned your privately involved in the White House Correspondent<\/a>s association and have a leadership position there. But why hasnt the press corps more aggressively challenged this war that he has declared on you . Hes declared you to be the enemy of the people. Why havent you fought back more aggressively . So first of all i think there has been fighting back on that. I when he first used the phrase, i went on, i was anchoring her sunday show with George Stephanopoulos<\/a> that sunday. I did a thing at the end of the program where he pointed out the history of the phrase, and pushed back aggressively. Also doing that is not easy. Its not the role, no journalist feels like they want to be making the news. They want to report the news. I think thats part of the dilemma, right . So we are not the resistance. We are not the Opposition Party<\/a>. That was the phrase i talk about steve bannon was the first of the Opposition Party<\/a> and then trump grabbed onto that. We cant act like the Opposition Party<\/a> would do have to push back and i do push back on this. Specially my roles representing the White House Press<\/a> corps, when the stuff gets dangerous, when it is over the top, it needs to be called out. There is an incident where there is an event for approach Trump Organization<\/a> at one of the president s properties in florida. They actually, they had an exhibit where they played this video clip it was a doctor seen from a movie it showed somebody in a church firing, using killing newspeople. And democrats. It was horrific. Youve got to call the stuff out. It is actually dangerous. We saw with the guy who sent the pipe bombs poorly made to cnn that there will be people. I have said this to the president directly. I recount that at the end of the book. There are sick people who will take these words literally and to heart. And hurt people. Its dangerous. Its particularly irresponsible coming from the person with the biggest pulpit of all coming from the president. You raise that with the white house staff with the press secretary with other people so yes one thing you have to recognize with this white house and its another theme of the book is donald trump does seek out advice. He does listen to people. But ultimately he goes in his own direction sometimes he takes the advice sometimes he doesnt but he truly is he is his own chief of staff. , john kelly tried to change that, had some moderate success. Hes his own National Security<\/a> adviser, you saw that with john bolton, john boltons National Security<\/a> adviser in the president s going on diametrically opposed on several major hot button issues. He certainly is his own communication secretary so taco little bit about that, you know the press of briefing is a subject i obviously care about having done many of them myself. He has now turned the press Briefing Room<\/a> into his platform for delivering a daily message. Hes not out doing rallies and things like that. Why do we need to have a Daily Press Briefing<\/a> . What is the role of the press secretary . What do you need as you are covering the white house . We mourned a chat went all that time without having any briefings by a press secretary. We had occasionally, Mike Mulvaney<\/a> came in. We just passed a one Year Anniversary<\/a> of note press briefing by the press secretary which i find astonishing. So it is you make a point thats a valid one, and an important one which i want to get to. But my argument about the need for a press secretary having regular press briefings. We are an extraordinary moment right now where the president is doing his own briefings every day. Thats we are an extraordinary time with the crisis. I think it is important during any time to see the person who is speaking on behalf of the executive branch of the United States<\/a> government is speaking on behalf of the president come out and take questions every day from all comers. I think it is important first of all in terms of the newsgathering it admittedly the information is not always useful. Some more useful than others. I think it is important symbolically and sends a message to the country and the world that the most powerful person in our government is accountable. It is kind of, and away we dont have question. Like the british Prime Minister<\/a> has in parliament. But this is someone speaking on behalf of the executive branch to has to sit there and take questions which some of them are quite uncomfortable. Determine unruly group of reporters pretty make another point which is the process of preparing for that briefing helps clarify policymaking and leads to better policy. Thats an interesting. 2. So my point is the preparation to do that every day requires you to go around the government and talk to cabinet officials, talk to the president , other senior officials in the white house. To get real clear information. You know you are going to get the questions. The process of getting the right answer, sometimes leads to better policy sometimes i would go to president clinton and say okay heres the answer im supposed to give today, and he would say thats just who we. [laughter] and id say yes but that your policy. So he would pick up the phone and call someone and say look, we gotta get this right, what are we doing on this issue . We have actually improve the functioning of government. The reality of doing that briefing is much more than taking care of the press, feeding the press would it needs everyday it also has a reverberating effect through all of government because people have to come up with better answers. If you come up with better answers that usually means your going to get better policy. Im a very strong advocate of doing that. But the other question, sometimes it turns into performance art, theater of the absurd we might say. I wonder whether the whole public encounter and whats on tv, sitting in the front row and asking the questions knowing its going to be on live tv, does that make it less useful . Is that an impediment to try to get the right information in front of the public . What should we do about that . Its not that easy to ask a Television Personality<\/a> that question. What you think . So i think, and you and i have actually disagreed on this point. I know youve talked in the past about suggesting briefings might be more useful if they were not televised. I think, sure there is an element and ive probably been accused of this more than once. Certainly look to my colleagues and said come on really were trying to do a serious thing and youre playing to the cameras that definitely happens that is definitely annoying there is symbolic value in the world seeing this play out in the world seeing this is the way our system works. Nobody is above the law, nobody is above scrutiny, public scrutiny. And i also, keep in mind, mike, theres 49 seats in that Briefing Room<\/a>, its a very small room as you know. So and now being spaced accordingly. So now theres 14 people, weve had to reduce it and say people cant stand in the aisles anymore for the obvious Public Health<\/a> reasons. Theres a lot of people who watch those briefings in realtime including reporters who cant be there. People watching cspan. I dont know cspan might also agree with me on this. I think it is important there televised thats not to say there is an Important Role<\/a> for briefings that are better in the background and not on camera by think having the press secretary go out in the world seeing the press secretary go out on a regular basis is a valuable exercise. Cspan was a great relief to nursing mothers. I used to have people say i was up in the middle of the night watching your briefing on tv when i was nursing my baby. [laughter] thats what we were reduced to. God loves cspan. The forward began to televise the receding engine briefings at the white house thats the only way you can see briefings. When i was first at the state department and my briefings at the state department were on cspan, late at night sometimes. I used to have people come up and say i saw you at two in the morning we talked a lot about the disappearance of the white house briefings, a tendency weve seen over a big change of the trump era so far is there were long periods of time would go by without a state department briefing. I think those are really important, former state Department Report<\/a> i wasnt there a newer, i was a spokesperson for the state department those are still really substantive briefings there televised by the way is you make reference. There really important to hold a different set of questions. The idea of those going away they have been coming back i was a pentagon reporter long periods of time when without a pentagon briefing, that is not healthy. I told president clinton one time i said there like three really great public spokesman jobs in washington, White House Press<\/a> secretary, state department spokesman, pentagon spokesman, you gave me to it of the jobs. But i have to say the best one was being state department spokesman. It was really curious about that and he says why do you say that . Its much more substantive you dont get a lot of political questions. A lot of the stuff that happens at the white house you get really informed questions and as you note the state department they will stay on the subjects and go through it, peel the onion back layer by layer and then they say next subject and you move on to the next subject with that kind of substance is not the way in which the political theater, fear the front row at the white house, is not the same as when you get commented not have those kinds of details substantive briefings in places like the Pentagon State Department<\/a> and even the white house is really, as a result of that i wish there was an outcry of members of the press is an important part of the democracy. I remember i loved covering the state department for that very reason, really substantive beats. In those briefings, i remember that voucher is a spokesperson at matt lee with ap, other writers really a really smart group of reporters and i would go in there, i always learned you learn about the world sometimes you could see with matt lee and steven bowsher going back and forth, its who knows more . Im not sure. Smack your referencing a guy i was actually my tutor. He actually taught me how to state Department Briefings<\/a> and a really wonderful guy. I remember when we made him an ambassador so he became an ambassador i think he went to cyprus. And then went to hong kong. He was that counselor general in hong kong after he had served because i remember going and at one point arguing that we are making diplomatic assignments we said you gotta take care of this guy. He is one of the very best of the best. He is a career public servant, is what donald trump might refer to as the deep state. These are quality people doing career jobs in government. To have them be discouraged or to be denigrated is i think a real loss. I hope there is more of a resistance to that in both the press and those who care about and speak about the role the government does play in our lives and needs to play. Im on my hobbyhorse. I agree. Talk a little bit, youve got some interesting stories there about your relationships with sean spicer and others. How do you view the role of the press secretary . You talk a little bit about how important it is testament come out and be accountable. You write a little bit in the book about some of the personal relationships you have had it maybe share some of that for the book. Spicer is an interesting one. Sean is someone whom i have known for a long, long time. Considered him a friend, i knew him when he was obviously a spokesperson for the rnc. I also knew him when he was a press secretary capitol hill. I remember at one point, he was involved in a group of capitol hill press secretaries and invited me as a young cnn reporter to talk to them. I actually shaved seans head on National Television<\/a> once. I was him and bret woodhouse who is a spokesperson for the Democratic Committee<\/a> they had was around one of the elections and i shave their heads it was a great thing. Sean asked me to it do that. He asked me to it do that. One is announce he the press secretary during the transition in the white house, i called him within about 90 seconds of the news breaking just to congratulate him and say, somebody is cover the place for long time has worked for a lot of press secretaries and he needs any help in terms of a device on how to deal with the press corps, id be happy to talk anytime. Almost immediately, when they got into the white house, i thought sean became a totally different person. Maybe i just did not know him as well as i thought i knew him. Obviously i was the second most difficult jobs in washington right now. The first is still chief of staff to donald trump. It can go either way. It was pure hostility almost from the start. So was it sean . Or is that him reflecting what his boss, the president of the United States<\/a> was demanding more from of the staff . I think it was both. I think is a big part sean. I will tell you, a lot of people are surprised when i say this. Sarah sanders when she came and it was an entirely different situation. Sarah tangled with the pressman should present briefings. In some way she was every bit as controversial as sean. But Sarah Sanders<\/a> worked very hard to perform some of those functions of a Traditional Press<\/a> secretary java constructive relationship of the press corporate i found are generally very pleasant to deal with on those logistics. Kind of the matters you have to deal with especially through the White House Correspondent<\/a>s association. Theres foreign trips, extensive giveandtake over what axis there will be, where the press will be, she was responsive, she acted much more like a Traditional Press<\/a> secretary. I found it very constructive relationship with Sarah Sanders<\/a>. Sean, was like pure hostility really from day one. He famously had that one press conference, it wasnt a press conference i dont know what it was. He came into the Briefing Room<\/a>, right after the inauguration. He yelled at everybody for about crowd size. I reached out to him immediately after you can imagine, my colleague, mary bruce was there for abc i was in new york as a saturday night. So i was not in the room but is obviously watching it. There were two things that horrified me about that performance. One is he said at least three things i could document that were verifiably false. The second thing, that was as offensive to me you may appreciate this is he left the room without taking a single question. That is a room, its to meet its a sacred room, the press Briefing Room<\/a>, its a room for giveandtake with journalists. A press secretary, tell me if im wrong, you know this better than i do, i never witness a press secretary come in, speak from the podium and not take a single question. So have you ever seen that . That would not happen. I have one great story about then in the abc White House Correspondent<\/a> bret hume. I had done a lot of briefings headed taken over my role the 1990s of the white house, he came up to me one time came up to my office and said you know, you are the most political person we have ever had at that podium. I said what he mean . He said we usually just get information and facts and content, but you are really doing a lot more of the political spin stuff. That had a huge huge impact on me. I have toned it down after that. What you are describing is this relationship that exists. Youre there to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable as peter finley had said. The symbiotic relationship between the press corps and the people at the white house is an important functioning part of our democracy. I dont think a lot of people appreciate or understand or know about that. You are speaking to what is more of the personal element of this are. I am surprised at that relationship that you had with sean. What about the Current Press<\/a> secretary is stephanie. Stephanie grisham. To have any kind of relationship customer. I think stephanie is in a very tough circumstance. These the first or second hardest job on any given dan washington. So you never see her she doesnt do briefings. I think a fight read enter on the street i dont think i would recognize her i dont think because she is just not a public persona the way some of the press secretaries have been. Guest she on paper is the most powerful press secretary we have ever had. She has three roles shes a spokesperson for the first lady still, thats what she did before she became press secretary. Shes press secretary and Communications Director<\/a>. So by the way, that cannot work. They are two different jobs. I was talked about this a lot, Communications Director<\/a> at the white house, the director of communications is like what i like to use as business analogy is product development. Youre actually thinking about whats going to be on the menu, what are we going to do a week from now or down the road. So thats one job. The press secretary is what i would say is retail sales. You have to fill the job every day. They are just to incredibly different and complicated jobs. I just dont know how you could do both of them. She also has the additional responsibility of being the first lady spokesman. In some ways i kind of pity her. I also dont think that is a functional way to organize the way in which you do president ial communications. So to add to the top of it she comes at a time when the president himself is clearly decided that regular briefings by his press secretary are no longer useful, he does not want them. So because hes gonna do because i am the man. I will go do the briefing myself. I have a lot of sympathy for the position she is impaired i will say this about Stephanie Grisham<\/a>, during this particular moment, which has been a really difficult one to be covering the story, to be at the white house, its for the whole country obviously. But with the coronavirus, that crisis, she has dealt very constructively and trying to work with me, work with the White House Correspondent<\/a>s association to make sure we can cover the story do it safely. And to take the necessary steps. It is not easy. It is a really difficult can you imagine this, just two weeks ago if you go back in time two weeks ago, you still had basically all of the press work at the white house you had briefings, any given briefing there could be 100 people packed in that room but there are 49 seats, and the strength era anytime this anything there its more crowded than you can possibly imagine. Imagine if at that point you had someone come down or multiple people testing positive, you could have literally shut down the entire White House Press<\/a> corporation being forced into quarantine and then our ability to cover the story plush a lot of sick people. Ive worked very closely with her in her office to try to say what can we do . We will voluntarily as a press corps reduce our numbers, do it in a way that is responsible, still allows enough people to be there and do the job. But does it endanger somebody pretty had temperature checks, we had the gsa coming in doing regular cleanings, rather aggressively. Its a tough situation and she has handled it well. Overall, the other thing and theres always tension between the east and west wing between the first ladys office and the president s political. [laughter] tell me about it so navy special in the Clinton White<\/a> house. [laughter] even during those two jobs its hard to imagine. Then you not be able to speak publicly. You know, sean, after that first performance, he came back on the monday and held a press conference. In this time, first bowl he had a suit that fit a little bit better, the resident didnt like the suit he was wearing on saturday, they didnt realize they could lower the podium a little bit that makes him look a little taller, few things. He came out only called on me i asked him a question which by the way i had asked josh ernest almost the same question when he became press secretary. With sean there is a real need to ask the question. Basically, in light of what having on saturday can you clarify the nature of your job . Is it your intention to always tell the truth from that podium . For the truth as far as you know it . He gave me a good answer he said yes and talks but is job et cetera. But for some reason he took offense to that he thought i was questioning his integrity had dare i ask him if you tell the truth. You write about that in the book two. Et cetera off a whole series of events. As a whole series of things about seans really quite a time. I had to obviously regularly deal with him because he was the press secretary. The interactions were often a hostile and he always had his backup, there are some pretty dramatic scenes described in the book about that relationship. Ive had the same encounter was with helen thomas who is the upi White House Correspondent<\/a>s there for years and years purge she once asked me is it ever appropriate for the press secretary to lie . Do you always have to tell the truth. So i said yes you always have to tell the truth and sometimes you have to tell the truth slowly. I got in huge trouble for saying that. I was thinking like if you know theres going to be an attack, in fact it literally was the question. Were going to have an attack on the sama bin laden. You knew that was going to happen. You couldnt tell the press oh yeah by the way you all need to kinda hang around here today or going to go to war later today. But you could not say that. You cannot had to kind of figure out how what you could sort of stumble around and keep people aimed at the truth, even if you are not going to be able to be completely forthcoming with what you actually knew. Thats a real challenge sometimes to be in that position of knowing things that you cant really say. On the other hand you cant live. Very, very difficult. Smack johnny wants it back to the book. Walk us through the book a little bit. You have some fascinating chapters, you talk about some of the things you were able to cover and you are part of at the white house. I want to give you a chance to unpack a little bit of whats in there . The first thing is my goal in writing this book, more than anything, i you want to have reporting nobody elses had you want to have more insights in the inner workings of the administration. You want to get capture some of that drama. More than anything, more than the scoops or anything on i wanted to do was to convey a sense of what it has been like to be part of this. To be a reporter during this extraordinary time. To be covering donald trump, to be starting with the wave of the campaign, all that that encompass and into this white house. The experience has been, i think i will be sitting around telling these stories, hopefully if i live that long deep into my 80s. Im on some beach somewhere there to sail my god youre not going to believe. This has been an incredible experience it has been exhausting. It has been a time exhilarating because of the Public Interest<\/a> in all things related to this white house has been hired than just about anything else i covered. That includes people who despise the president , people who love the president , people are fascinated by whats happening, theyre paying attention. Some may be getting a little exhausted by now. At the ark of the story, it has been the spotlight has been has been incredibly bright on that white house. I want to kind of portray what that is like day today, and the chaos, also to be covering a president trying to cover him fairly and objectively even as he is personally insulting you and your profession. How do you do that . How does that all play out . As i wrote the book, i thought it was going to be, when i started mostly like i would start day one and the white house. What i realized is, there is so much you needed to understand about trump before january 20, 2017. The third of the book is actually before the inauguration. So some of the stuff i love about writing it was diving back into that period of time. So for instance, i happen to be in the oval office two days after the election 2016 went donald trump for the very first time met personally barack obama. They had had this drama that had played out since for the previous five or six years. They had been at the White House Correspondent<\/a>s dinner in 2011 lump president obama taunted him. But they had never actually met. Hugh hout works, explain in the book, try to give people a sense of how it works inside the white house. The stuff you and i take for granted. But most people dont, they are not inside, how does it work . Where did the reporters go . How do you get to where youre going to be . How you cover this . But you know in the oval office is a pull of news organizations and they take turns at the small space. Happen to be my turn i happen to be in the oval office for that historic moment. Theres a photograph, i actually took a lot of photos of that moment on my phone. I by the way the photos in the book and you credit doug mills among others they are fabulous, thats one of the great parts of the book. So that was really fun putting together the photo section in writing the captions its almost like a separate book is that photo insert. I had my phone, you know how it works theres a when the presses brought into the oval office to take pictures coming to hear the statements, the public statements whoever the president s meeting with issue being ushered out you know how that works. Before going into the oval office, the press, the press pool assembled by the rose garden in the colonnade right outside the door to the oval office. Were usually brought in about a minute or two before the door opens we quickly go in and we quickly leave. I went out with the press pool on this day, two days after the election 2016 in the Obama White House<\/a>. We waited to go in. We were out there for about an hour, waiting to go in, to see the president and the president elect, that never happens. Its just the two of them and that oval office. By the way, someday, someday they will be of great play that is written about that period of time, about that moment. So those two men alone in the oval office after the election that shocks the nation, shocked the world. We are outside because nobody expected us must be a quick meeting about 20 minutes. So we got it minute 19 and the thing is still going on. And on, on, on, where waiting, waiting, waiting, at one point i look out and i see Jared Kushner<\/a> and dennis mcdonough, the chief of staff and the incoming soninlaw on staff. They are outside and they come to look in they see the meeting is still going on and they take a walk around track on the South Entrance<\/a> White House South Lawn<\/a> they took a look again, is that how long is that truck . So about a quarter of a mile. So after that they can back it still going on so they take another lap. I look over across the rose garden and i see the people i had met and described in i love going back and seeing this the very early days of that campaign when there is really nobody working for the Trump Campaign<\/a> it was just a handful of people including his former caddie, formal ralph lauren model and spokesperson for of bonkers product line. You know, just a very small, small group of people, former intern or junior person a fox news that came in. I look over and i see dan gambino who is again the former caddie who became the manager of his twitter an instagram accounts. Hope hicks, the spokesperson the original spokesperson. Now back in live action. In a couple of the other originals. They are cross the rose garden and there walking up the colonnade and they pause and they take selfies, almost like a tourist would. I dont think any of them had ever stepped foot in the white house before. In any capacity. So here they are coming in there about to take the place over and everybody is in all, nobody can believe what happens. Including the president elect, donald trump. What i did is i went back and i described at scene sent talk about my phone, i actually shot a video which i couldnt put a video in the book maybe well find a way to put that out. I shot a video of that once we are finally called into the oval office. Walking in. Its really just wild to see. I and up sitting right up against the couch, about a foot and a half from president obama, about 5 feet from donald trump. For this moment. I took a few still pictures. I saw a side of trump that i had never seen before and ive never seen since. First salt the first time he had ever been in a room when donald trump is calling all the shots this was obamas meeting, obama is the president. Obama is calling us in, obamas in the first remarks, obama is handing it off to trump to speak. Obamas the one. And trump seems to me, that moment, humbled by the moments, maybe even a little freaked out by the moment. He just spent an hour or so with the president of the United States<\/a> describing some of the real challenges he was going to be facing. He sitting in the oval office, i think it is dawning on him, yes he won the election it was great, love the campaign. Now, this is going to be his. He has the responsibility. Someday we will learn the exact contents of that theres been some description of that among other things, obama apparently said north koreas you going to have to pay the most attention to. I went back and talk to everyone who is there that dad talk to the senior people on the obama team, to those who traveled with strep, and i tried to reconstruct to the best extent possible, to the greatest extent possible, what happened both in that meeting and also around the white house on that day. It really is a singular day in american history. So that kind of stuff, thats the first part of the book. The early days in the Trump Campaign<\/a>, some of the stuff back in my New York Post<\/a> days, some of the key moments i dont try to be comprehensive i dont cover everything but i try to cover the moments i have something unique to say either through reporting ivan cover that hasnt been out there before, or something i personally experienced, or i have that unique perspective on moments. Maybe you all saw play out. Everyone saw that moment to play out but i try to bring something into the perspective for the most part nobody else could have. We are almost at the end of the conversation here it is a great, great read. You really captured so much after this. jonathan one moment is that are right about was when Mick Mulvaney<\/a> was made acting chief of staff, he called the senior west wing staff at camp david, basically a Group Meeting<\/a> over the weekend to talk about how they would approach things. There are many ways, this is very helpful. He reached out to other former chiefs of staff and he had read a book about the job of chief of staff and he kind of learned some lessons from that. What i found interesting is that i cannot that he actually had recommended a book from madness, a book that makes the case for some of the greatest leaders in history have been mentally ill. In the some of the worst leaders, in times of crisis were people who were eminently same. This was really unusual. Mike why would he recommend such a book. I find so unusual but, i actually read out to the author of the book was written in 2011. Someone there sosebee or, before trump came on the scene. Hes obviously not part of it. Chamberlain was a perfectly sane and stable guy, completely unable to deal with the insanity of the rise of germany. Winston churchill came in, and this author had mild mental illness. Mcclellan, the general mcclellan, was an upstanding great, army officer perfectly sane and completely unable to deal with the u. S. Grant, was an alcoholic. Jonathan and sherman was out of his mind. So anyway, that was an interesting little tidbit. Mike on that very cheerful note, it is a great book. And he provided so many good personal insights. I hope you get a lot of opportunity to talk about the book. And talk about some of the things that you have seen. It really is except that really great. Jonathan thank you mike and it was great to have this conversation with you because the one thing that virtually everybody agrees when it comes to talking about the job of the White House Press<\/a> secretary is a model for the job of the guy who is the absolute model for how to do it right is mike. Mike thank you for that printed my models were jody powell, so the tradition goes back quite a ways. Thank you for saying that. Jonathan thank you. This program is available as a podcast, paul afterwards programs can be viewed on a website booktv. Org read as the coronavirus continues to impact the country, is a look at what the Publishing Industry<\/a> is doing to address the ongoing pandemic. Bestselling author, James Patterson<\/a> announced that he will donate 500,000 to aids independent bookstores across the country. Hes partnering with reese witherspoon, and the book industry charitable foundations and to watch the save the bookstores effort to provide grants to booksellers. Bookstores around the country continue to provide Remote Services<\/a> for their customers through online sales and virtual author events. Sourcebooks in detroit closes doors but here are selling online. The recently announced the rehiring of 49 of their Staff Members<\/a> to assist with the rise in online sales. Bay area booksellers have partnered together to provide a series of author events. At we love bookstores. According to books sales, they dipped 13 percent in the last week in march compared to the year prior. Publishers continue to make changes to the publication schedules and many of the announced layoffs, and the closing of their distribution centers. Spring book festivals and conferences have been canceled with book fairs in san antonio and in maryland three or opting not to reschedule. Also cancellations of their inner conference in june in chicago predict Los Angeles Times<\/a> festival of books originally set to take place in april, has decided to hold their 25th annual festival in october. Book tv will continue to bring you new programs and publishing news. You can also watch all of our anytime, apple tv. Org. Good evening everybody. We will get","publisher":{"@type":"Organization","name":"archive.org","logo":{"@type":"ImageObject","width":"800","height":"600","url":"\/\/ia802902.us.archive.org\/12\/items\/CSPAN2_20200412_160000_After_Words_Jonathan_Karl_Front_Row_at_the_Trump_Show\/CSPAN2_20200412_160000_After_Words_Jonathan_Karl_Front_Row_at_the_Trump_Show.thumbs\/CSPAN2_20200412_160000_After_Words_Jonathan_Karl_Front_Row_at_the_Trump_Show_000001.jpg"}},"autauthor":{"@type":"Organization"},"author":{"sameAs":"archive.org","name":"archive.org"}}],"coverageEndTime":"20240716T12:35:10+00:00"}