Good evening everybody and welcome, i direct event here, we are so happy to have everyone here, before we launch into a session of strange rights, unlike tissue history, this is a 1927 by benjamin over fourth avenue, stretching from union square, from an original or the eight stores until after 93 years the sole survivor and now run by thirdgeneration owner, we want to thank all of you for your support without her whole community of authors, booklovers and friends we would not be here today. Tonight we are excited to have with this tar Isabella Burton celebrating the release of her new book, strange rights in the religions for a world, shes a tribute editor at the american interest. The former Staff Reporter at fox. Com. Shes written religion and secular religion for national geographic, the washington post, the New York Times and more in the doctrine and theology in oxford, shes the author of the novel social creature. Joining her to discuss her new book is ross, a columnist for the New York Times oped page, he is the author to change a church and privilege, and coauthor, brandnew party, before joining the New York Times uses Senior Editor for the atlantic in the critic for the national review, he lives in new haven with his wife and three children, without further ado join me in welcoming tar and ross. Thank you so much, thank you to all of you for joining us in this exciting virtual experien experience, slightly disembodied way of talking about a book that may be appropriate to the subject matter and tar are, thank you for letting me and being here. Thank you so much for being here. Just another thursday night in america. I just want to make two comments before we start, the first is in our era of covid i have done enough zoom events to know that sometimes people are more hesitant to ask questions when they are typing in questions than they would be at a real event where you can stand up and tell the author why shes wrong about everything in the world. Otherwise will have to listen to the questions for the entire hour and will get 50 or 20 minutes of your questions and at the end, the second one which ill reiterate is that this is a challenging time for everybody and authors are among the least challenge in many ways but putting out a book at a moment like this is a difficult thing, i had a book, and i was lucky enough to squeeze in a couple weeks of promotions before the books closed and i just want to encourage you, if you are listening and enjoying this, dont just buy the book from the strand obviously, encourage your friends to buy the book and making the best selling that it deserves to be. Without further ado, lets start with a big dumb question, this is a book about new religions for a godless world. These are if not or if so what religions are filling a void. Spoiler of work under alert, we dont live in a godless world, thats argument that i make, i want to draw a distinction of when we talk about of what we want to do and World Without religion, what are we really talking about in a couple of background statistics, about 22224 of americans are religiously unaffiliated and often referred to as a religious and no mes nuns. About 36 of people born in america after 1985 identify as religious nuns, huge increase but of the nuns unaffiliated, 72 say they believe in some sort of higher power and 20 say they believe in the god of the bible, were not necessarily talking about people about 6 but we are talking about people, for whatever reason are alienated by institutional religion, organized religion who feel has nothing to offer them, who may as in a case believe in the traditional Judeo Christian god and still have some form but are unwilling to identify, participate and as a religion of itself, were talking about the spiritual but not religious but were talking about a broader category and i call it the religious, not just a spiritual but not religious, its a most visible but also people who do the internet a identify with a particular religious tradition but whose personal practices believe our work suspected. In a statistic i like to bring up to give how widespread, about 30 of self identified christians say they believe in realitreincarnation. It is not something one would associate with christian orthodoxy so we are living in an age that i would argue were religious life, the components of a religious life meaning purpose, community, ritual and were relating in a different way and were mixing and matching and unbundling with the term, there is a sense in which we are the endpoint of this and were all making our own religion, these can include not just elements of the traditional religion but things like wellness culture, fandom, political activism, the vast array of witchcraft and wicca are the among the Fastest Growing in america and so on and so forth. I think one initial response to the description of your thesis that someone will diverse in working history might have how new is all of this, after all there certainly is nothing more american than being entrepreneurial in setting up a church of one that every kid in High School English back when i went to high school was assigned and you get a certain kind of individualized religion in the larger history of 19th Century American spirituality is what you and the book call into into law religion. Can you talk a little bit about what is the same and what is different, what do we have in common with 19th Century America and what is changed in the last 30 or 40 years. What i call in to is the religious practices in the leaps that focus and words, the gut, the individual, the feelings versus institutionalism, a productive term but your church, your external forces. The birth of movements like news fox it was huge in the 1860s onward that was the proto secret selfhelp or basically think about hard enough it will happen. But is a hugely influential and led to a whole Publishing Industry of selfhelp books. Theres spiritualism and the obsessions with ouija boards, contacting the dead, became really on ambiguous on the east coast for theres also an evangelical revival within the christian tradition where the narrative was often Something Like church has, or christianity has become people go to the motion to go to church on sunday and it doesnt really matter. You need to look for a personal relationship of god. We need to look for something more intense, more intimate. And course in various countercultures of religions in the 1960s. Said that is absently not new part if anything out argue with the pendulum swing back and forth for however many hundred years. But i think where something is distinct and new about this great awakening is the internet whisper trying to gather in this way at this time. I like to save the Printing Press rather was the promised reformation. Sort of a creation of model of consuming information is many ways intimate and inward you are reading a book you had the direct connection to the text, to internalize in such a way think were seeing these new religions being the religions of the internet age. What we are not all just in sumers of content we are not just readers but we are also inclined to culturally think of ourselves as creators. Think of ourselves as people who have or want to have ownership over stories to in some ways harkens back to the traditions as well. But with the added disembodiment of the internet itself. This hunger to create, to be involved, to have ownership in our stories had made us all the more resistant to perhaps orthodox ways are traditionally orthodox ways of experiencing, severing doctrine. Think as well our particular capitalist moments bestowed in personal branding made us cognizant of the model the training of what app in my using to meditate . What purchase of my making and my going to a soul cycle class a sweet clean salad. Think the wellness culture is perhaps the biggest, most obvious example of this. But i think the way in which our conspicuous and perhaps less conspicuous consumption is seen to define us in the algorithms where theyre getting narrower and narrower contribute to this kind of hyper atomized individualization. So i want to press you a little bit on the point you made at the end. I think one of the interesting things about the book is that it sort of at the core you are talking about practices and sort of experiments. [inaudible] they fit some sort of definition of religious or spiritual right. I think the core of the book is certainly a revival of pagan occultist practices in various forms in american life. But then your definition of new religion spreads outward and encompasses as you were just saying consumer culture personalize aspect of consumer culture. Everything sort of holistic and personalized wellness culture and so imprint so convince me as someone who may be a little inclined to skepticism that it makes sense to fit the world of brands and that type of self cultivation under the umbrella of religious practice. So i would argue theres an implicit theology that shared by so many, particularly Wellness Movement i talk about. The idea that is a moral, spiritual demand to be your best self. To improve in a certain way that i would argue its kind of the collapse of this distinction between effort you put on a soul cycle, the purity you get from having the right green just the minimal amount of toxins. The weight your skin looks after your ten step beauty routine. The way in which these things are sold and talked about is so loaded with this language of selfcare, not just as a kind of nice thing to do. Even though historically selfcare does come for a much more political place in this sort of a wellness which its now founded. Theres a sense in which if we are not taking care of ourselve ourselves, we are not putting in the effort to be the best in this certain way, which is happens to be making us prettier or extensively more fit and have a doing complexion or what have you. In so doing and thats the elements of that that are taken for example there elements taken from the prosperity gospel position which is adjacent to that. But i think the idea more broadly your job as a human being on this earth is to be your truest self. To be your best self. Also to be your most authentic self. To release yourself from oppression, from ways that society is acted upon you, and figure out who you really are. Is i would argue coded as their mortal spiritual good. Theres popular in wellness circles, its popular in various occult broadly conceived circles i think their versions of that much more political the capitalist version does tend to equate personal fulfillment with the kind of vibration on the right frequency of the right energy and are way that i find incredibly interesting. And quite revealing. So . [inaudible] with this group has a think its because the brand of which we buy things doesnt have the community aspect. I do all of my shopping. [inaudible] so. Im sorry go on. I think that soul cycle is even better example because it combines metaphysic and the aesthetic and the kind of sense of purpose with a community at a ritual that lets you experience that in the moment. Remember i went through a few select cycles i wish i could say they were all for research but they were not. Theyre fine a few with and with the community or soul, tribe, pack. Were occult thats where it says it right there. For energy. Effects your neighbors energy like please dont lose do this this is the other thing. That is again moving kind of vague nebulas spiritualize language to talk about her to blend to what could be fitness class to burn some calories into something with an aura of spiritual attainment. The what you doing is not just good for you its good for the universe and youre in it. One thing that has struck me that i think fits with your argument about the difference between the early 21st century and its gurus, in the 1h century and its gurus is just an absence of institutionalization, right . That the United States has a lot of the same kinds of spiritual entrepreneurs and would be gurus that we had in the victoria air the early 19th century. They dont seem as likely to found things that we call churches purdue just said Marianne Williamson the president ial campaign. And Marianne Williamson she is a preinternet figure original sheet rises to prominence in the 1980s. But she is a parenting updated news thought kind of figure. If you look in the 19th century there be a Church Founded by Marianne Williamson. Would be huge but it would have 200,000 people the resort of chapels around the country. That doesnt seem to happen to anything special over the last couple of generations. Have a little stuff in the 70s and 80s but especially lately. And how much of that is the internet . How much is that is an ambient skepticism of institutions . Why isnt one of paltrow i guess connie west has sunday Services Wise and third sunday service. [inaudible] im not sure it would not be successful at least initially. I think the label of church or making something a church would be met with a degree of suspicion. I think as well the sort of fact that there is such a willingness to admit and try mix and match that we will let it, the broader we hear. Me personally. So much of contemporary is about that kind of precise individualization breeds of that in the end we cant necessarily get away from the end point being that we are all the end of our church. We trust not only in our religious institutions but in arsenic once color political ones journalistic and media institutions as well unfortunately. I think that there is that suspicion does just lend itself to such a focus on self. I want to be careful here pretty think there is an easy narrative that we could go to that says kids these days with their selfies, they are so narcissistic preach around religion. I think that the tempting way that one could go about reading the situation. But it actually think that isnt necessarily a story of narcissism but institutional failure. I think its perfectly reasonable in effect completely understandable that if youre institutions have failed you pretty few dont think you can trust the media, the scientific establishment the political system, the academic system, so on and so forth. It makes perfect sense to turn inward to rely on yourself, to rely on your gut instinct. And desires and affinities and feelings as authoritative. At least you know that you might be lying to yourself in a broader theological way but you are aware of yourself and other people. So i guess to push on that point a tiny bit, is it sustainable . Right . This is a book about our whole culture. But it is obviously focused on its a people younger than me. I just turned 40. So millennials in generations. These are people who are sort of conducting experiments in religion at a time they are conducting experiments in relationships and professional experiments and so on. And i think you can tell a plausible story where these are the children of baby boomers who had their own rebellion and often sort of hung onto an institutional affiliation. Obviously talk a little bit about this. [inaudible] generational turnover where they took one step out the door of their institutions but kept 1 foot in the door. And then their kid is taken the other step. But their kids havent for the most part gone through that 50 to 60 years of life that awaits after your 20s, right . In which the dogma or doctrine of religion the sort of solidarity of a religious institution or community thats not clear that soul cycle provides the role that our bar mitzvah or first communion play plays. And so on to this is the prophecy line. So was it look like in 25 years for the people conducting these experiments now . Guest i think the more inward looking of soul cycle its not just self focus but present. Those are the things i think are on the table. I think well see a hunger for collectivity, solidarity, the kind of pure kind of self interested version of these new religion. The well cultures of the world cannot offer. I think what we will see particular social justice as a movement. Part of what it does offer is an ideology of community and ideology of solidarity. There is a real hunger for. Im interested to, more broadly and i talk about this in a chapter on pollyanna re in kind of the free love is a continuation of ideas of human perfectionism in the 19th century. But ways in which, the term has long been using the Clear Community shows and family. People who are marginalized or experienced marginalization from traditional institutions. People who are alienated who is family of origin might not be in touch with in the same way, might be able to find one another pretty think there is a hopeful idea as a result or people find likeminded people were they confined communities, there are options for solidarity for coming together for the creation of ritual in the way that may not look like organized religion that traditionally practice but offers that sense of community. I always room of theres a woman i interviewed before starting this book. Who lost her husband unexpectedly quite young. Wanted with his friends to celebrate and commemorate his wife that was specific to him. So the friends got together and they played music from his favorite videogame. There is sort of service that was very much design, not around religious minds but who this person was, what his life was like. Hed wanted to play a video game they played together pretty was it able to do that. With the people she met online through this game played this game sorted in his memory. She was reported import entrance usually important to her. Im gotten example of how these communal bonds and our desire for these communal bonds can survive this sort of reshaping. Even as i think haps the purely selfish part the inwardness of a certain kind of wellness culture shall we say. I think as an example. Then lets roll down on the question of belief, right . Were community. But you know, the core of what we think of as religion has always been belief. Theres a lot of sociological debate about how important or actual creedal statements and dont people really take their religious identity from community rather than creeds. I think there is truth to that. I think its also true the major World Religions are structured on the metaphysical claims about the universe. One question, weve had these conversations before and i always ask this question. Ill ask it again because i think it radiates through a lot of the