With you giving a brief background and very briefly with your job and experience and career. Yes. Thank you for doing this today. I grew up in Dutchess County new york and i received a nomination to the Us Naval Academy which i started one week after graduating high school 1989. I completed annapolis and was then commissioned in the u. S. Navy and served first as armscontrol action officer in the pentagon and then i moved on Surface Warfare ships and navy ships in the atlantic and in the middle east. I have been a lifelong student although i a joke around when i was at annapolis i dropped out and studied at night and then go to night classes. So for example working in the pentagon i do my masters in National Security at georgetown and while i was a research fellow. And they likely heard you are not to intelligent hapless sky. And to learn more about you i really thought that was a clearer represent misrepresentation of what you had done. We also want to start how you came to work in russia because if not for your presence for business at some point in time they may not have had an excuse. So explain why they act like it so sufficient for many thousands of Business People from the United States work in russia. And a free markets guy that was my other degree at university of London School of oriental and African Studies at middle and Near East Affairs and doing a big Research Project on the tensions between capitalist and socialist approaches in emerging market societies. And my first time to brush i was during the late soviet. In the summer of 1991 just a few months before the end of the soviet union and i was part of the First Exchange program between Us Naval Academy. I have been working over there in various capacities doing a lot of us russia armscontrol negotiations. When i got out at the council of Foreign Relations i did a Research Project with central agent on asia and the caspian sea. Ive done a lot of work to develop markets in general and the key emerging market and on the interface between capitalist and socialist type of approaches with the end of communism that president reagan worked on in terms of transition for free market societies. I was inspired by that growing up and if i could contribute to that process. At a time in the not too distant past because this was encouraged by our government to move from what was the soviet union moving to a market economy like ours. And therefore a Financial Company . Yes. Merrill lynch was the Us Investment bank we opened an office in 2004 and it is related to the overall transition to the markets approaches because in 1998 with the worldwide emerging market crisis. And merrill decided to shut down the office and russia has been the biggest and fastest Growth Market in the world. And more of a transition me and another guy to open a Merrill Lynch office. Of course its not unusual for the former soviet union because of the way the economy works in coming into context with russian government officials and those that work were provide intelligence. And again i had a philosophy one philosophy to tell the truth to help serve the country. That was my philosophy when i served in the navy throughout the years. And a lot of different work i had done with the Intelligence Community. And i always served my country and as a catholic altar boy serving my community as well as the navy. I was more than happy to help when i was asked with the view that to have accurate and insightful information living and working there now over 25 years it would be useful to provide some insight which could be helpful to our country. Having been a source for information for fbi and cia working people order the book . There is a website carter page club. Com for whatever bookseller you prefer or carter page book. Com. If people dont know who i am i am an Investigative Reporter with a history working of pbs and cnn with the show now called the full measure on st. Clair. And carter page and i have something in common the government having surveilling us in the improper and unlawful way. That is what chapter nine of his book focuses on overcoming and i will be just as short passage and then you can provide context. That illegitimate case give several other forms of dysfunction. I was targeted with four applications for fisa surveillance they were filed under title i in which to find me as an agent of a foreign power. And you provide intelligence for Intelligence Agency but they were secretly wiretapping you claiming you could be spying for the russians and you write but i wasnt the only target. The federal government could listen in on the people talking to me and people talking with them with your private data and steve bannon and Steve Bannons contact donald trump so the carter page warrant was a direct assault on the first and Fourth Amendment for all americans and then to get to others on the campaign. Its interesting. And through my contact with the Intelligence Community someone gave me a heads up that was used by the comey fbi to get this fraudulent warrant. That way back in september 2016 a contact of mine with ties to the Intel Community said the democrats paid Opposition Research people to dig up dirt on candidate trump and his supporters such as me. I knew they were trying to come up with allies with the initial idea to pump that up to the media and getting that Election Interference Campaign to deceive american voters. And this is just less than a couple of months between the 2016 election and sure enough on september 23rd, 2016. Even though im getting all kinds of questions from reporters, Washington Post and New York Times all with the same false allegations the democrats have paid for and consultants were trying to push out in every way possible finally they found a Media Organization that is unethical enough or gullible enough or both to publish this article with that election interference where the false stories were used with the fraudulent fisa affidavits as a way to spy on so many people and what the other Trump Campaign volunteers. The things that were said about you with the wiretap under false peace on pretenses it says you were already acting as a russian spy people may not know those are the qualifications you cannot wiretap somebody either they are already active as a russian spy or about to become one and they wiretap you four times over the course of a year support of this evidence to visit russia and make contact with government russian officials as a liaison for the Trump Campaign. Is that a fair summary . Thats an important insight going back to your personal story. So it is very similar to the last several years for the Senate Judiciary chairman Lindsey Graham. And the department of justice and they have not been very supportive at all providing the full information for what has happened. And the focus of this chapter and understanding whats at stake and how it affects so many people like yourself and myself and leaders in Congress Just trying to protect Civil Liberties. Its a long and complicated story. I try to make it simple and as understandable as possible while illustrating what that stake with the civil rights abuses or potential abuse. We are all susceptible. Host the ultimate test 22 when the Intelligence Community committing the abuse but also in charge of holding the perpetrators accountable and they have no desire to do that. And this is what is so dangerous because it didnt just happen to you or me there were many operations. Hundreds if not thousands over a longer time. Too many people to account. And you also wrote in chapter nine with the Inspector General Michael Horowitz revealed the breakdown of the surveillance state is much worse than we realize with the examination of the wiretap applications and they all had serious deficiencies. They cannot even find a document to show those mandatory process was followed this is apparent too many for a long time the whole system of secret surveillance is broken. Thats what you say how this impacts people may be carter page will get redress in the end but thats more than that. There are so many different dimensions and challenges related. This is a serious problem that impacts all americans on the one hand but also very often this is a First Amendment constitutional right in addition to having freedom of the press there is freedom of thought and Peaceable Assembly and so many inherent in the First Amendment. And unfortunately when people have a different view or a journalist such as yourself says something about the powers that be, and the incident that started with me happened with the Obama Biden Administration. Sometimes we have harsh political activists to achieve their political objective. This is some insight when i interviewed you from a program full measure. There is some evidence they were looking for anybody in the best Case Scenario they thought trump was a russian spy and just looking for russian ties or worse case anybody who had been to rush or had experience. To justify i was helping the fbi with a particular russian spy case in new york. Unfortunately, and i was writing some various ideas in terms of certain approaches that should be taken, i recently read a little academic article and i offered this, and one of my meetings with the fbi agents i had mentioned my various perspectives to them. I think what we have seen is just a real severe biased, this big Inspector General report which led into this major investigation, the initial fives abuse report has some these abuses that the Trauma Campaign and myself were inflicted upon us. That was a very serious issue but unfortunately it really extends far beyond that. One of the elements of that, one of the big debates is the Inspector General horwitz, an obama appointee, he said that, we dont find any political bias there. It was an interesting conclusion and i know a lot of people who actually know the full fact to push back on this really hard. But on the face of it, there is a ton of evidence of political bias and unfortunately, its very similar to what we are talking about as things you had to deal with that chairman Lindsay Graham and so many members of congress have had to deal with in terms of getting the truth. Its only part of the story and if you are just getting, i always refer to it as garbage in, garbage out. The Inspector General report u. S. Department of justice they interviewed 100 witnesses and read over 1 million documents as part of their overall review. Unfortunately, a lot of the same perpetrators with the same people they are talking about are talking like this. I think its understandable where if you are only talking to many of the same bad apples of course they are going to say we are not biased at all. I was begging them to let me provide input and unfortunately for whatever reason, this is another example of Civil Liberties not really being respected, also the role of law not being respected because the privacy act of 1974 which gives american citizens if the government is keeping records on you, you have the right to review that information, particularly before they distribute it to the entire world. There are a lot of problems in that december 2019 Inspector General report and i thought it was really essential that i have some help set the record straight. Thats when i decided to write this book basically, just because this story is so incomplete and i just wanted to tell him all of the foreign ab tell more of the full story as part of the Election Interference Campaign and President Trumps First Campaign take us back, wasnt they a sarcastic remark you made to one of these fbi people some years ago that you thought may have stuck in there cause a little bit and made them more vindictive when it came to coming after you. Its typical freedom of speech, freedom of ideas and i wrote an oped, which was actually very critical of the Obama Administrations policy. One thing in particular that i tried to argue in this article is, instead of abthere were a lot of mistakes in Foreign Policy and in our Justice System context of the Obama Administration but if they had paid more attention and looked for more constructive approaches, so many threats, so many National Security threats to america could have been completely avoided. There was both calling people out for some of their mistakes in terms of this academic article, which got no real attention other than me talking to the fbi agents about it. Unfortunately, one thing led to another and just about a year and and a half later, those were the meeting in the middle of 2013 after some help i was giving them. Way before this current scandal. Yes. Then a year and and a half later in january 2015, eric holder, prebaraga and john harlan senior doj officials in the Obama Biden Administration came out this indictment of three alleged russian spies they gave highly Sensitive Information in the open indictment, i have supported them and given them a lot of accurate and information in the way the information presented. I had no forewarning that this would be taken to the next level in terms of making this a public indictment and actually filing these charges. Even worse is the fact that some of the things that i had laid out and told them in my original meeting with them and particularly the way they juxtapose it with other information in this indictment really missed the trade the information i had given them which one thing leads to another and unfortunately with not a very professional way of managing that case or recognizing someone who had long supported the u. S. Intelligence community and the Justice System for many many years really just essentially putting my life at risk because eventually, i explained it all in the book and its a long and some of the prior chapters but its an ongoing spy thriller if you will of my back and forth, although supporting them on the one hand, just also calling them out in some of my meetings with them explaining the mistakes that had been made. Unfortunately, telling the truth and voicing an honest opinion made me even more of a personal target for political reasons than i could have imagined. Closing the loop on the violation of law i think there were probably numerous ones but one that we know of for sure now that happened against you by fbi, required when they made a secret wiretap application but if the person they are trying to get wiretap against has a relation with the federal government, that must be disclosed, thats what the fbi rules among other things they didnt follow. When you publicly implied or stated or discussed with the fbi in a letter to them, i helped you in the past, please come to me if you have questions about this, this is ridiculous, when it was being leaked you were some kind of spy, they withheld that information from the court and there was apparently an exchange within the fbi and the cia, the cia confirmed to the fbi you had been a source and that was the trigger that should have forced them to disclose this Important Information to the court, which might have made the court Say Something seems a little funny here, why would a guy that knows hes being watched that has helped us in the past be spying supposedly on behalf of russia. Instead, this fbi attorney pleading guilty phyllis admits to have doctor the information, forge the document and said you have not been, according to the cia, a past source. Thats what really makes everything fall apart in a very official way in terms of what they did to you. I think thats a great summary. This is a very powerful fbi attorney who was involved in this particular part of the charade. I think if you read closely the indictment and as you are referring to, me giving a heads up, the fbi in that case two days after this amatory article planted by the democrats in september 2016 on sunday, september 25, 2016, i sent a letter to then fbi director james comey just explaining the truth and trying to explain reality to the sky. I said at the end of this letter id been in touch with you and been in touch with the cia going back a long time and, please, if you will, this is obvious how ridiculous these allegations are. If you have any remaining questions, if you have any doubts, do not hesitate to comment, and not only do they not contact me during that period, over the 5 months following that is when mr. Comey and sally yates submitted the first two files highly inaccurate 50 warrants to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court in washington. Unfortunately, not only were they not talking to me, they were instead dealing with a dnc plan dominic funded consultant who was doing this major Smear Campaign against then candidate trump and his supporters such as me and leaking like crazy to the media. There so much wrongdoing and encapsulated in their its encouraging that some initial steps have been taken in terms of reestablishing the rule of law but unfortunately there is just so much more that needs to be uncovered and i hope this book provides some initial impetus in terms of some of the major problems and i just want the American People to know what the full truth is underlying this completely incredible attack. The book is called abuse and power, the notion the Inspector General wouldnt speak to you during his investigation that when you try to get the fbi to talk to you to clear things up and say we are targeting you, they wouldnt speak to you. Reminds me a little bit when the Government Operations against me were confirmed, i never dreamed this was happening. I had sources that would alert dominic alert me i later learned the fbi, what cbs news announced the intrusion weve had a halfdozen forensics exams abbut i learned through a freedom of information act request the fbi holding withholding most of the information about my own case they opened a case when cbs announced there had been these intrusions into my computers and they listed me as the victim, never contacted me, never tried to help me, never told me that was the case, i wasnt even aware of it. I can only assume its because there were some contacts inside that knew this was involving government agents not a rogue case involving outsiders. Remind me when you say here you are waiting at the door to talk to them and help clear your name, which you have a right to do and you cant even get their attention as you are being smeared. One really interesting facet when i interviewed you for my program was, i didnt know the answer to this before i asked it but i even forget how it came up. Basically had you when we spoke before, ever met donald trump . I had never then when we last spoke and i still have never had the privilege of meeting him. Its unfortunately just being totally miss pretrade i been a man on the run and i refer to it as my International Fugitive years. Unfortunately with those same types of problems and challenges, which are created by this massive government footprint coming down on your head like just like a goliath, unfortunately, i know you had similar battles in terms of trying to reestablish justice with your own case has been an uphill battle nonstop. Ive never had the opportunity and unfortunately, this is one of the core problems of the Election Interference Campaign during the during the Obama Biden Administration. They smear various people and creates huge legal liability for anyone that wants to communicate or maintain a relationship. To talk about this in the book with certain individuals so essentially by the time 2016 election came around i was just a complete International Pariah almost everyone i knew wanted to have nothing to do with me, not just highlevel people within the Trump Campaign, including the candidate himself but basically everyone i knew. The one exception to that was a professor from Cambridge University in the uk, this gentleman by the name of stephan helper, its now been revealed, unfortunately, he was part of whats known as spy gate where government operatives were looking to survey out and be part of this spying operation against the Trump Campaign, unfortunately. Along the lines of have you met them i wasnt really meeting with anyone with the exception of this one guy who i thought was a potentially goodhearted person heart in the right place and little did i know he was a high paid government operative hired during the Obama Biden Administration to spy on the Trump Campaign are the operations of the campaign at that time. It just adds to the perception of the absurdity that you would be some highlevel russian spy working for the Trump Campaign with trump who was a russian spy and youve never met the man youve never spoken to him on the phone never emailed him nothing. Yes. Also, i wondered, as of december when the horowitz report came out, there was never any doubt, even if people have some doubt that improper things had been done to you specifically and obviously with bigger implication and now that there has been a guilty plea by that fbi attorney, former attorney i believe his name is kevin kleinsmith, theres a guilty plea in your case showing youve been abused, has anybody reached out to you from government, department of justice . Has there been any attempt to remedy this . I know theres no way to get your petition back or go back in time and, sadly, even an attainment of money will not be reached in a significant way but i guess thats the only thing the government can potentially do. Someone reached out with the with the giant apology and some offer to try to remedy some of these wrongs . Somewhat similar to your case, cheryl where its been a long ongoing battle which just continues and continues and ive been fighting this going back to the time four years ago when i wrote that letter to james comey ive been fighting for the truth and fighting for some small semblance of justice. Unfortunately ive been in various litigation myself up against the Massive Department of justice and part of the problem is, this is literally the Largest Law Firm in the world. Countless, i think 10,000 lawyers with unlimited resources ability with the ability to just ask you there individual and in many cases political objectives. Although there have been important steps forward, my experience throughout this time is that there is been very little very few steps very little willingness to write these wrongs. I will, however, mention one small glimmer of hope and it relates back to mr. Kleinsmith. This month in august 2020 was the first time, weve talked about the privacy act violations, all the fivesthis w the first time that some steps by doj were actually shown to actually respect my legal rights and constitutional rights. This one slight legal trivia but theres a sworn law called the crime victims rights act in many aspects of this law have been completely disregarded even though it was widely understood all these criminal acts conducted against myself as a way of damaging President Trump but it was the first time this month that the department of justice took some very limited steps to begin remedying the situation. Its a small initial tiny glimmer of hope and we will have to see how everything plays out with that but i was slightly encourage. That law says part of it one of the tenants to the law says you have the right to be treated with fairness and with respect for the victims dignity and privacy i think that one sentence in this u. S. Law is the absolute opposite of everything i had to deal with and so many other people have had to deal with unfortunately. Can you say specifically i dont fully understand the impact of what you just described on your case. No real impact yet, all i will say is, people have often talked about the boomerang where all these bad actors by government officials creating incalculable damages for innocent people such as myself various Trump Supporters, this is the first time that basic legal rights, the right to be treated with fairness and respect, so, yes, there certainly a tremendous amount more that needs to be done but this is the very first small tiny glimmer of hope that perhaps some people somewhere with in the department of justice are acting ethically and in accordance with the rule of law. Im very encouraged by that one tiny step and hopefully there are giant leaps in the period to come. My last question along these lines, and i to understand even today at least as we speak youve been sowing the department of justice to try to get some of these wrongs remedied somehow and despite the fact that the Inspector General came out last december and found violations and despite the fact that there is no dispute about it the court has acknowledged further investigation and these abuses you still are fighting in court, they have come to you and said, you are right theres nothing to fight anymore, we give up . I have a few initial steps ive tried taking, unfortunately the first time originally i filed a case in the Southern District of new york and i talked about this in an earlier chapter as well, unfortunately i made various claims across the government and then that was during the rosenstein stash and years of the department of justice and unfortunately it was a continuation of either false or Misleading Court pleadings by doj. Little did i know when i first filed my case three years ago in september 2017 that a few months later through a great investigation by chairman Lindsey Graham of the Senate Judiciary as well as then chairman of the House Intelligence Committee devon nunez, uncovered none other than mr. Rosenstein himself was one of the people who signed this false court pleading against me in june 2017, well into the Trump Administration already. Is highly disappointing but i bear in mind theres a lot of other Trump Supporters who been feeling similar problems, for example, general flynn. There are certain steps theyve taken but its a big catch up game right now and we will have to see how everything plays out because after so many years of wrongdoing, we are in the process of rebuilding. Obviously now that we are just a couple months before 2020 election, i am hopeful there could be some progress because certainly if you listen to, for example, last week, sally yates, another person who signed two false fia say warrants, she was a big political operative at the big National Convention of the dnc. And what significance of the dnc . Thats the same organization that funded and helped put together this terrible dossier, which was part of the serious civil rights abuses which i had to endure. The Democratic National committee and for people who dont know, when you sign off on these wiretaps, im told by my inside sources, youd normally stay far far away from a political competitor, you just dont do it. If you feel you must, for some overriding reason, that would have to go all the way to the top, to the president of the United States because its such a sensitive matter they would have to examine that then you would want to look at the wiretap if you sign off on it and make Crystal Clear that all the processes have been followed. You would want to do that personally not just sign it as they say they kind of did not people at the top or implying they were fooled by the people under them when in fact its their responsibility to make sure that doesnt happen. Wow, what a story, you said carter page. Com is the place with all the options for the book. Www. Carterpagebook. Com, great. The book is called abuse and power, the story is amazing, thank you carter page, thank you so much cheryl. Here are some of the current bestselling nonfiction books according to the Washington Post, topping the list, Pulitzer Prize winning author Isabel Wilkerson explores what she calls a hidden caste system in the United States, then in how to be an antiracist abram candy argues america must choose to be antiracist and work toward building a bore Global Society after that in too much and never enough, President Trumps niece mary trump takes a critical look at the president and his family followed by activist glendon doyles memoir untamed and wrapping up our look at some of the bestselling nonfiction books according to the Washington Post is his truth is marching on historian john meachams biography of the late congressman and civil rights leader john lewis stop some of these authors have appeared on booktv and you can watch them online at booktv. Org. On our Author Interview program after words, former Deputy Assistant attorney general in the george w. Bush administration john hume weighed in on the president ial powers on u. S. Constitution. Here are some of the discussion. I started out wary of President Trump, i wasnt a supporter of his in the 2016 election ad the thing that worried me was that he was a populist and the constitution seems designed to stop populists. Its fairly antidemocratic in nature is in a lot of ways like a senate and judiciary and Electoral College. The presence of the state is important part of the constitution so i was worried when trump came in as a populist who wants to achieve and agenda that he feels he received a mandate for that he would strain against or even go beyond the constitutional restraints of power and i was worried at the beginning he was doing that and things like the travel ban, threats to build a border wall without congressional approval and in the early piece i urged them to try to use his president ial powers primarily for National Security and Foreign Affairs at their height and to understand the Domestic Affairs that his role was really to enforce the law and to work with congress to get legislation passed, i think what happened since 2017 to today is that i found his critics have become the ones who have gone too far in trying to stretch the constitution because i think trump so outrageous they watched attack after attack on his legitimacy. The trumps critics who talked about getting rid of the Electoral College who talked about packing the Supreme Court to add new members to get a 15 who want to return us to a world with permanent Statutory Oil independent councils which i think criminalize our politics. One of the nationalized large parts of our economy for a green new deal, that left trump undeniably using the constitution more as a shield using constitution to pursue his own self interest but that leaves to him the field of relying on more traditional interpretations of the constitution so i argue that either intentionally or unintentionally, hes become more the defender of the traditional constitution then his critics. To watch the rest of this program for visit our website booktv. Org, click the after words tab near the top of the page to find all previous episodes. Good morning and thank you for joining us here at post live, im karen aa columnist here at the post i write about politics. It is my great pleasure this morning to be interviewing a couple of my colleagues and friends, Kevin Sullivan and mary jordan, about their brandnew book trump on trial the investigation, impeachment acquittal and aftermath of that we have all lived through in this past year. Thats one of the things as i was reading this book,
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