And then with the sole serve in one sole survivor and with the booklovers and authors without who we would not be here today we are beyond excited to have journalist and historian with his new book richard grew up in wayne new jersey studying philosophy since 2012 affiliated with the nation as editor and writer and also published essays and reviews and the new york review of books and times. His book is break it up and book. Only with the occasional newsletter joining him in conversation to turn 1976 with the fall of nixon and the rise of reagan and the fracturing of america m Barry Goldwater and the american consensus. The 2001 l. A. Times and the former online columnist the journalism and essay has appeared in newsweek the New York Times and other publications. Without further ado welcome richard and rick. Hello. Hi. We have decided since we are equal we will flip a coin to decide who asked the first question. Rick collett to choose who goes first. Heads. I will go second. What most people remember about reagans president ial campaign of 1980 which is the culmination of reagan land taking out the general Election Campaign where 16 years earlier the body of the civil rights workers were discovered when people accused reagan of doing that. And visibly so in that caused the big backlash. So my question for you is to what extent of the states rates theory and using that instrumentally. Thank you richard. One of the things that affects me is that i dreamed of writing is that you are at the center of the narrative the idea that the United States is united is a mess. And then i realized after reading the whole book closely did it right the book i want to write but a Great Foundation what i want to write that america is disunited but also to exist in fragments. And why american elites have so frantically have been led to believe that america is united so they deny that structural conflict. That gets into the answer of the question that you ask. This is one of the most famous things of the 1980 campaign and one of the reasons it is remembered its one of the only things they campaign did during the election that was truly effective. So the background is striking and ironic. One of the main parts of reagans political strategy derives from a poster the guidebook form that Campaign People think that Ronald Reagan that he is a big it but they have sympathy with his ideas maybe even have a little bigotry themselves. And then to convince all voters that that was not an act of bigotry. And the template and then the Trump Campaign repeated in spades last week at the convention to speak with audiences are as many as possible to speak on his behalf and with that intended outreach it was the outreach of a suburban moderate. And thats when we have the general Election Campaign we decided to do it for the urban league and thats the most moderate. But there was a scheduling snafu. The second speech ended up being the first. The idea for speaking at a county fair to send a signal to the Carter Campaign that they could not take the home region for granted for the First Time Since the civil war. He was going to give his standard speech and now young congressmen name trent lott to was the president of the fraternity at ole miss with those raters who cap James Meredith and what trent lott told him if you want him eating out of your hand and then to have a big supporter of states rights. And that is the phrase at the top of their lungs and with that White Supremacy and reagan did this but as i argue if you actually listen to the speech is energy drains as he comes closer to the formulation one of the worst pieces i ever heard. Three times more jokes than usual and by the time he gets to the words he mumbles them. Thats because Ronald Reagans strong psychological drive his own innocence. He was not a democrat and then to project that it was crucial to why he did such a good job to reassure americans that and those like Barry Goldwater and 64 with reactionary nasty selfish and bigoted. So he gave the speech and the Carter Campaign and those around the country immediately pounced. It was so effective and exactly reversing the strategy of the entire campaign to pigeonhole reagan someone in sympathy with bigots, that one of his Campaign Workers in mississippi wrote an angry letter to the campaign to say we had mississippi in the bag and now it is a tossup. So the speech is remembered that he stoked the fires of bigotry in order to win the election. What connects to your work is that the official code of the gatekeeping media elites is a fiction that somehow america is united. And reagan fell foul to write editorials precisely because he stepped over the boundary that reminded people of these conflicts existed. That they have been formed. And in oculist language and thats the trouble trump got into in charlottesville. The biggest difference between Ronald Reagans appeal to the conservative electorate is that Ronald Reagan in fact was the master. And trump is the train whistle. But does he hold that conception of the constitution and the answer is absolutely. And its not the business of the federal government. He opposed an open housing referendum that people have the right to dispose of their properties and criticize the Voting Rights act and that it was unfair and his whole constitutional doctrine in the role of the federal government it should be as small as possible. So states should usurp powers. But a big part of the success was the ability to present this in a way that shaved off any reference and that is why he was successful and for him to signal the racial entailment in his speech. Considering the fact as president with the budget for Public Housing by 80 percen 80 percent, does that make him less of a contributor . Or more . Was his ability to persuade white voters because he was taking the federal government out of the business . And those who believe its doing too much for blacks or jimmy carter. Was this a reactionary thing . And the answer is yes. And with the policymaking going precisely because with the taint of racism and letting people for for him in a way. And without American History with that success by assuming racism into national unity. And that is the basis up to 1861 and 1865. And then to threaten the unity of the nation. I have a question one of the things i write is to weaponize hindsight to dramatize things those that seem inevitable almost didnt happen because turning around the formation of the United States itself. You have the picture of the continental threedollar bill that the outcome is in doubt what are the reasons that it did not become the United States . So this goes why did it take so long for the union to be formed in the first place . Thats back to the civil war. It wasnt because they didnt have the idea that they rejected it out of hand and wanted nothing to do with one another. When the revolution came it was a means to an end. They only did so because that was the only way to rebel. So that reluctance played a role in the fragility so why do they not even survived the civil war . It was the union document. They got the colonies out of the relationship with Great Britain. But to create that they need to draw that up and that is the articles of confederation. But in 1776 they come to terms and could not find any agreeable document that they could sign. And then there were a few issues that divided the people who control the western landmass on the other side of the appellation mountains. And who was pro and con. Virginia had a colony going back to the early 17th centur century. But Great Britain had a charter from seed to see but nobody knew how big that was but if you are a colony like maryland you had a landless state so virginia wanted to control the land that maryland wanted all the new land to go into the National Domain for congress to control that and then new states could join as the original 13 members. Maryland was the last holdout that refused to ratify the articles of confederation to the end of the war. There is a very littleknown story about why they finally did. And with russia and in the 17 seventies and with the british invasion and then requested france and the french ambassador to give maryland to say we will see about sending the ships because were tired of dealing with 13 separate states thousands of miles apart. And we had independence before there was a nation. Yes that is the confederate theory. That is what lincoln was arguing against he said there was a union first. That they show even if there was a union before the declaration of independence but lincoln was dealing with us a session and the debates in the Continental Congress and South Carolina walked out with the protest over what they did not like. So even if there was a union it was a compromise from the very beginning that lincoln was dealing with in his time. Another issue is representation. With the people the represented or the states . And that was a massive debate and later on. You know my interest in the constitution saw the book start about president ial candidates. And then to get on that chance to be on the list. But it is a story for the american presidency. And lbj advocates office in the nixon resigns. Then ford pardons nixon and then discredits the presidency with the 76 election when he is running for reelection i know its not week cakes hes doing the best he can. And providing to show the viability and with the reviewers of the book and with the presidency and with the office of the presidency. Do you see it that way . And i have a very specific answer. It was almost a doctor and by the time james wrote the famous cover article in the Atlantic Monthly just as the presidency was falling apart. And how jimmy carter such a micromanager and he tries to keep his finger and all the rules of and thats the reason one of the reason for his failure as a president. And two great examples. And in between his election he reads the entire report of the army corps of engineers. And basically not paying off the American People so he would unilaterally cancel them. And then he causes almost a full revolt by the entire Democratic Congress because they rely on the water projects. And to micromanage. The other example is the big Campaign Promise to perform the tax code and he doesnt explain what that means but to do it he reads the entire tax code and re figures that and the Christmas Tree ornaments and these are political back stories and tendencies. And when reagan was for office and all the commentators say and then to run the government and he barely even knows his own policies what those are for one of the things that happened and every reagan biographer and was completely out of touch a van Dinesh Desousa in his book with reagan and then just decided its a good way to be president. With all the different and the pressures that play and not that hes any genius with a sophisticated theory of executive power. And he will not learn anything new famously at a reception. He said to his own secretary of housing and urban development who was africanamerican, nice to see you mr. Mayor. He didnt know who his own officials were. It turns out delegating everything to the grownups in the room as donald trump is a different figure like howard baker and basically following the script works much more smoothly and because of his great charisma and the parallel and when new york was going to shit and my dad would say new york city is ungovernable now i know thats a cliche that and those various reasons it became even more ungovernable. And then giuliani came around and started to bash heads people said turnout you can after all. And then it fades during the reagan years and the phenomenon of the very strange president ial file. So the fun stories about your book is the expansion. But that every day anything below the masondixon line. And with that like to be a political figure during the 18th century and 19th century and how hard communication was. It is the sheer alienation that can only communicate with each other with a lag time of days or weeks or months. With a landmass and pacific that as other countries lose control of them and again and again and again what we now think of as american we cannot even conceive them not being part of america and then becoming their own countries. And some of these trunks out there that are deciding. That california and the west coast and how thats a session after the 2016 election. And we didnt know much about california but he knew John Jacob Astor established the settlement what is now or again. And then said i wish you well. And thats an extremely popular position. And with that white anglosaxon. And then to have its own separate republic. There is no panama canal. Absolutely is a totally different world. And people from all over the place and all over the world especially south america and europe and have a desire. What those californians issued to form their own union and then with the Continental Railroad to prevent the union from eastwest boundary. But thats also a reason for california. But also i was the most laughed out loud. And during this period and how this plays out. And states were very small than. And then to say you have a nation. And with the Mississippi River valley. And those entrepreneurs. Thats one of the most powerful. And his allegiance meant nothing and during the convention he was bargaining was spain. And then with separatism of kentucky and thats on the payroll for 20 years. Everybody knew he was a traitor and then there are these traders in the payer form powers and now back to this position but then was in the position to take advantage of it. And its a settlement with a great location for all these people come and then they are waiting for the canal to come. And with that political character and culture as it was formed with the Paul Manafort like characters. And because there is a conspiracy. Im ready maybe people realize and then invite me to do a radio show. This is tension during that period so i have a great quotation from goldwater and said the east coast and with that campaign commercial. And then the southwest. So can you just talk about geographic and with those generational gaps. And with those in light of that insight in a british journalist and also a historian of the 1968 election. And basically the history of the postwar american consensus. And with that conservative movement and talk by his first trip to arizona nearly sixties and when becoming a National Figure in writing about it with a plantation. And a lot were talk about being colonized and they were suing for their independence. And making the president 1964 with the baking reserves the west of the mississippi really was a colony on wall street and thats why the greatest term of derision that was wall street republicans with the political and cultural and economic with a right wing of the Republican Party and to come handinhand for the very survival those involved in the original in getting the conservative to get that published and those were the leaders and that there were foundry owners in milwaukee or a company in minnesota and then address in their town and in new york they literally had to have ranches with a company like Morgan Stanley if you read the book transaction man it is a futile organization 25 partners decided to got money and the way things were set up for a monopoly for finance capital there was no negotiation. They decided Interest Rate thats like the goldwater movement. And then to speak to that profoundly and then the Goldwater Convention after he was nominated pushing the masondixon line clear up to canada for regionals civil war and then in the 1970s and as those go to shit after the iran embargo after the hostage crisis. And not only an Energy Problem but it wasnt even conceptualized. And with the Nixon Administration and official told the president within ten years and with that economic factor. They are way below even inflation. And then jimmy carter decides he will have a National Energy policy is like a chapter out of your book when some states are Energy Producer and then centered around high prices and lack of regulation and then like in the winter of 77 and especially 79 the heating oil shortage. And i remember a child in the bronx were freezing to death so they want price controls. And that symbolized by the Bumper Sticker that was very popular in texas let them freeze in the dark. And the gas shortage in california they could not see it. This is what california gets on the automobile. And its like the European Union from rich countries and poor countries in the same thing happens some have Energy Independence so the idea of that cant happen then that cant happen in the United States either. Thats why jimmy carters hubris and outside of politics raise the jerryrigged Energy Structure that then to r