Transcripts For CSPAN2 Bob Woodward Rage 20240712 : vimarsan

Lead reporter for coverage of the 9 11 terrorist attacks. His books also have made big news and drawn many readers pick his nose book rage is his 20th. All of been national bestsellers. We are accustomed to bobs books taking us behind the scenes of highlevel meetings and into the minds of those making critical u. S. Policy decisions. His extraordinary about United States is at this time donald trump himself spoke with bob not once or twice but 17 times while the book was being written providing a remarkable series of glimpses into the president s thinking at key moments. The conversation with bob the cd will be another prizewinning journalist jane mayer, chief washington correspondent for the new yorker magazine which is been for 25 years. Jane is also the author of authoritative books that helped deepen our understanding of such important topics as the money behind the rise of the radical right, the war on terror, the Clarence Thomas hearings, and the irancontra affair. So jane and bob, take it away. Great. Bob, great to be with you and great to be with politics and prose. I just want to start as, given theres been so much a news, with a question or two to get your thoughts on the court. And i wondered whether in your work on trump whether you gotten in insights into his relationship with Mitch Mcconnell, how did you Work Together, will they be coordinating closely, and to have the same interests when it comes to approaching filling the vacancy left by Ruth Bader Ginsburg . Yes, because you have a pie in the new yorker, remind everyone what your piece said, you know, the idea that really mcconnell wants to make sure he retains control of the senate more than getting another justice, is that correct . Well, i think what he would like is to do both. I agree. My guess is he will be come hes very canny and will find a way to do both with some incredible maneuver. He often surprises people with the fine print of the rules in the senate, but i think people,i know who i interviewed about Mitch Mcconnell think that nothing matters more to him than staying majority majority leadt that way. But i imagine at this point trump really wants yet another justice, and this would be his third on the court. Im sure mitch would like you, too, but not at the expense of losing his majority in the senate. And its dicey politics right now as we know. Things are very what you think is going on . How do you Work Together . Have you gotten any im going to release some audio and transcripts of trump talking with me about this very issue. I think were going to release them in an hour, but hey, it shows that trump and mcconnell really work in tandem, much more than we thought. Trump has wrapped his mind around this issue of filling the seat of the Ruth Bader Ginsburg seat. He sees a political plus, a giant one, because what this does is it takes the focus of the virus where his performance is, quite frankly, i found in my reporting a dismal, and goes to the issue of kenny put another justice on the court. This hits his idea of lack of decorum, is very much his style and people are criticizing him saying this is not fair, but this is a pure political powerplay that mcconnell and trump might pull off quite successfully. Democrats and a lot of people wait a minute, Merrick Garland didnt get a hearing, didnt get a vote. In reality, the Senate Majority Mitch Mcconnell controls these things and so theres much more, i think this is trump locke when one of the long conversations i had with trump a couple of months ago, he said he thought in 2016 he won the election in the last four weeks of the campaign. I think you can see that and argue that, and he think hes hoping to duplicate that. You have in your book a conversation, it seems with, i dont know if you directly in a few but with Lindsey Graham, and you say that Lindsey Graham and chief Justice John Roberts talk a lot, which was news to me, and Lindsey Graham is the chairman of the Judiciary Committee in the senate right now. I key pivotal position in all of this. But in the book graham seems to express that he is worried that, and justice roberts, two, chief roberts, are both worried that the court has become so split and so politicized and so partisan, and they dont want it to become more so. Does that suggest, do you think that kind of thinking will have any bearing on who trump picks, or how to really make this pic, do you think . I think hes going to pick the woman, the cubanamerican from florida. It makes all the political sense in the world. She served on the Supreme Court of florida for many years. Now shes on the federal Appeals Court down there. That cubanamerican heritage, conservative, its an obvious political pick for trump, but you know, in trump world you learn to not state much on your predictions because he continually surprises. This is going to be, as everyone says, bloody. But trump and mcconnell are looking at this, oh, boy, we have an opportunity here, and it appeals to the evangelicals. It appeals to this idea that the kind of rule breaking that trump loves. In a way theres a tradition of trying to ram through a Supreme Court new appointee in an election year, let alone last 50 days of the campaign. I think theres a feeling of political muscle, that theyre going to exercise it. A lot of people dont like it. And you dont see it as any kind of potential for backlash . I know the democrats are already talking about if they take the Senate Majority, that they would then also turn to sort of radical muscle and maybe try to pack the court or Something Like that. You see any sort of a downsize for i i know there are people who talk about that. Packing the court has a bad odor about it because rankling roosevelt tried that and its we do like the way the court is for the way the court has been in all of american history, and we are going to now add more justices because we dont like what they are doing. I dont think that works in a political sense or in a practical sense, but if you listen to some of the democrats talk about this and just say, oh, this is absolutely awful, unfair. How can trump and mcconnell think of doing this . What do you think . You know this. I think that mcconnell and, i dont know, i havent spent as much time they become sort and not as much time as you have on trump, but mcconnell, a somebody wrote today, hypocrisy and shamelessness are not only is he a new to them, they are a management style for him. This is business as usual. They are not kindercare people say it looks unfair. But who are the people who are going to say its unfair . Democrats. Right. And speedy the only thing i can imagine that might make a difference is, and i was in reviewing norm ornstein about this from aei and he said theres a couple of senate races with endangered republican incumbent, Susan Collins was declared shes not going to vote for for a replacement for ginsburg before the election, and there are a few others where it could be dicey. It puts them on the spot of having to choose between the trump base which it cant afford to lose, and the moderates at particularly women within might not want to lose. I count you will need four who will not vote with mcconnell, four republicans, and today i cant count for much of it. They might get romney, murkowski and colleagues. I dont know who the fourth would be. Anyway, everybody is watching. Certainly, but the idea of hypocrisy, whats the hypocrisy . Not going to hurt their feelings. Actually, i think its kind of the wrong word. It is playing ultimate political hardball. And as we know the democrats will do that as will the republicans. Its going to be a moment where he you have to sit on the edge of your seat because theres going to be maneuvers. There is going to be surprises, and trump is sitting back there wow, were talking about this rather than the virus, which is now killed 200,000 people. And i found in my reporting, by discussions with trump, this all goes back to them if i can take you to what i think is what is most important meetings in the oval office, certainly in the century and may be in a long time, and that is january 28 of this year when the National Security adviser Robert Obrien said to president trump, the virus is going to be, not maybe, but going to be the biggest National Security threat to your presidency. And then the deputy laid out the details of how they had sources. He was an old wall street journal reporter, a very talented one, nominated for the Pulitzer Prize for what he did in china for seven years covering the 2003 sars epidemic. And he laid out for trump, he said look, this virus is airborne. People who dont show symptoms can spread it. But most importantly, he said this is not going to be just a little problem. Its going to be very much like a 1918 spanish flu pandemic that killed 675,000 people. They went through the details of this, and the president , ten days later, told me about this. I was thinking all about, hes talking about china and it was not three months until i learned about the january meeting, which i start my book with. It is one of those, its almost like somebody coming to Franklin Roosevelts a week before pearl harbor and saying the japanese are going to bomb us, here and just sitting on it and not doing anything. Shocking behavior. It is, i think there are two pillars in the presidency, the first is, i remember talking to trump about this in our first interview in december of last year in the oval office, and the question was, whats the job of the president . And trump said, the job is to protect the people. And he failed here to protect the people. What he couldve done in february, out and say, look, i have an authoritative warning here. There are things people can do. He literally, in the state of the union address, february 4, couldve said wash her hands, keep social distancing, wear a mask, dont get in the room, crowded room with people for an extended period of time. What was going on, how do you count for failure on the issue that has killed as of today 200,000 people in weve been talking a year ago and if i said it would happen next year, you would think ive gone off the rails. Why . Your question on march 19th, i interviewed him in one of our many talks over 9 hours and he i said why have you acted this way about the virus. Now this is march, everyone knew it was airborne, knew that we were in a crisis. We were at that point 30,000 new cases a day and i said why are you doing this . He said, well, i like to down played it. Ive always like to down play it. I dont want people to panic. I now look at that statement and to be direct with you. When he said i dont want people to panic. It reflects its failure to understand the people he govern, that in this country if people are told the truth like Franklin Roosevelt after pearl harbor. I know you can be told the worst, its all bad news and you will not lose heart, that is the american position. If you lay it on the line, look, this is going to be difficult but trump wanted to cover it up and for all 50 years trying to understand president s, it is it is the action that really is failure to lead in any form, a failure to understand his responsibility. During some some of the expertse dr. Fauci was saying, its the fend of february, okay to go to the gym and the mall and the movies, you know, maybe it will be different but i think right now its going to be fine, people are saying, well, the public officials, Health Officials let trump down but, you know this so well. There are two strains, two information routes to a president , one is National Security and the other is the coming in towards these Coronavirus Task force meetings that they dont meet except trump is the only one asked all of them. He knows whats going on and the failure to warn is one to have saddest moments in history as best i can tell. Do you think he felt that he could outrun it, though . As you watch the numbers and theyve exponentially ticking upwards, did you think people wouldnt notice . Thats not the way he thinks. He thinks in a very impulsive way as we know, how do i deal with this at this moment. And its a failure to accept responsibility. In july, i talked with him, one of our long talks, in fact, the longers one thats in the book so this is 2 months ago, i said on the virus, what grade would you give yourself and he said, well, i would give myself an a and if we get a vaccine an a plus. On this day there were 4 million virus cases in this country, 142,000 americans had died and hes giving himself an a and then he looks at some of his comments the last week when, you know, people ask about him downplaying it, well, i actually upplayed it. Well, thats a word that i checked thats not even in the scrabble dictionary let alone the real big dictionary. And one moment hes saying my book is a political hit job. He was asked by fox anchor this week, well, what about the book, he said accurate, well, its okay, its fine. And, you know, up, down, political hit job, and he sorry to say this, im not sure he knows what way is up and which way is bad and this is the leader of the country. Youve covered 9 president s and i guess i just have to ask the most basic of questions, is trump the worst . Well, you see, as a reporter, you want to cover each one and you could make all kinds of comparisons and nixon, the first president i covered with carl bernstein, he clearly was a criminal president and the Republican Party turned on nixon and he was nearly forced to resign when Barry Goldwater went to the office and said i counted the republican and you have only 4 votes among republicans, none in the democratic party, and one of those four votes for you is not me, goldwater said. The next night nixon announced he was resigning. So if each one is different this has left a gaping wound in our country and its not over. Almost a thousand people are tieing every day right now and the failure to lead and describe the things that need to be and everyone should be aware of that. Oh, well, its optional. He goes and has rallies where thousands of people are packed together without masks, what the hell is going on . I think i think its when i did the first book on trump, its a nervous breakdown of the executive branch. What do you call it now . Yeah. I call it something that we almost been put to sleep, oh, a thousand deaths, 142,000 deaths now, 200,000 deaths. We need a wakeup call to the populist. This isnt a political issue. This is a practical issue and quite frankly a moral issue. And the reason i ask whether you rank trump differently in the bottom partly is because as far as i know and, correct me if im wrong, but this may be the first president where you have come out and expressed an opinion that simply says this man is not qualified to be our president and and what i said in totality of my reporting, hes the wrong man for the job. In which case conclusion based on overwhelming evidence. How could because in a way, the book is about the truth. Are we going to face the truth. As i was working on the epilogue i pipe that and then i consulted my assistant evelyn duff any and my wife elsa walsh who you know so well. My colleague. Yeah. And somebody elsa worked at the post. She was staff writer at the new yorker. She edit the book 6 times and repeatedly would take me to the woods frankly, wait a minute, you havent absolutely confirmed this, you need talk to this person and she would give me graphs and i would have 250 words on a page typed out neatly and then she would go after it and actually write more than 250 words on the page and rearranging, and so forth. And i am blessed, you know her as a friend, i know her as a wife and a friend, and the most yeah. Exactly. But i mean, the question i had was this process that you went through of coming out of your you are most accomplished reporter in america and you come out of the tradition of trying to keep your voice neutral even as and let the reporting tell the story. And in this case you actually spoke up as an individual and said, issued an opinion, and i can imagine that, its kind of its a hard step to take for people like you and like me, maybe, who are trained as traditional reporters. And i wonder what is it about trump that made you feel that this the time that you had to speak up and Say Something out loud in the end . Not only was i able to do the reporting and had the luxury of 10 months but he would call me at all hours. I could call him at any time. He would call back or he would come on the phone at night or during the day. Ive got 20 or 10 generals waiting downstairs. I need to go talk one of the questions that everyone wonders about is why did he talk to you and why do people why did he talk to you because he kept saying throughout the book, you know, i know this is going to be bad, youre going to do this, youre going to do that. Didnt talk to you for your first book. What do you think he could somehow win you over or change the sort of the mainstream medias view of him, he could sell you on himself or did he need someone to con fez to late at night as he rambled around the white house. Why did he talk to you . What im doing reporting is a practical and i would lay out my questions and he would answer. I would not let him off the hook. If you go through the book, one of the most extraordinary scenes for me was going down the maralago to interview him on december 30th of last year. Hes on trial, impeachment trial is going on in the senate, and so i started asking him some questions about impeachment and the transcript he released telling that he wanted ukrainian president zelensky to talk to the attorney general about investigating joe biden and his son. So we are shouting at each other saying, you by releasing this transcript nixon famously said he gave his opponent a door by behaving the way he did. And so i said to president trump, you know, you gave your opponent a sword by releasing the transcript. Oh, no,