965 and this is my first hearing is chairman of the subcommittee on oversight and my First Official virtual oversight subcommittee hearing in the ways and Means Committee. Before return to todays important topic i want to remind members of the decisions and procedures while we navigate this platform. First, consistent with regulations we keep microphones needed to limit background noise and members are responsible for on meeting themselves when they seek recognition or when recognized for five minutes. Second, the members and witnesses must have their cameras on at all times so even if you are for a second or few moments leave your camera on. Third, we will dispense with the practice of observing and go in order of seniority for christian dating alternating between minority and majority and [inaudible] after all subcommittee members have asked the questions we will move in seniority order to off subcommittee members. Finally, without objection representative [inaudible] will also serve as the chair in the event i experienced technical difficulties. I thank you for your continued patience as we navigate the technology in order to continue serving our country together in the great time of need. With that i will now turn to the important topic of todays hearing, taxpayer fairness. Our hearing today will focus on issues of tax fairness and i welcome my colleagues and i welcome the witnesses. I must note that this is the first subCommittee Meeting since the passing of her friend and colleague john lewis. John was the chairman and leave democratic member on this subcommittee for the past 15 years. I selected the Oversight Panel when i first joined the committee in 2007 because i wanted to work with john. He led the subcommittee with the same grace and sense of purpose of which he led his life. I obviously cannot fill his shoes but while our styles are not the same argument to do everything in my power to make john proud. As a subcommittee charged with conducting oversight in the programs within the umbrella of the ways and Means Committee our jurisdiction is very broad. Today we are focusing on one of most critical components of american government, voluntary tax system. Historically in the United States they had an excellent record of compliance with our tax laws americans need to pay their taxes ensuing the system is fair for all. Whether you are rich as rockefeller or just a regular joe. For five years trump the president has refused to disclose his tax returns. Trump has broken with history of every president since president nixon to sabotage public faith in our taxes. In 2017 i have led an effort [inaudible] the law is clear. Under 26 United States code section 6103f the committees legally and absolutely entitled to seat mr. Trumps return. It is our responsibility to restore the Publics Trust in the system by ensuring that the president s returns are ordered impartially and without clinical interference. Our chairman formally requested mr. Trumps return in april of 2019. The administration through treasury secretary min mnuchin and irs commissioner has refused our requests. They have been breaking the law for now 555 days. The house issued a subpoena in the administration refused to comply with the subpoena that our subcommittee will be looking into subpoena powers under the constitution. And the rules of the house but consequently, the house has requested the tax returns is being stonewalled by Political Parties and plenty of urgency in the New York Times reported that selfproclaimed billionaire President Trump paid only 750 in taxes in 2017 and in 2018. In the ten previous years he reportedly paid no taxes. I would like that deal. I am from north jersey we have teachers, police officers, firefighters, ambulance technologists and School Bus Drivers who pay more in taxes and how do they feel when they see their leader pays less than they do . The tax system that lets a supposed billionaire pay less than teachers, secretaries and custodians is broken. That is why we are holding todays hearing. I want everyone watching us to know that i personally invited the irs commissioner to join us today and he refused. I wonder why. What is he afraid of . Why is donald trump afraid to disclose his tax voluntarily . Is it because we may learn that the true source of the president s socalled wealth is not clean . What dark thinkers he might be open to and we have an excellent panel of witnesses like we have an Excellent Group of members here. Both sides of the aisle want answers to those questions and i look forward to the testimony. First i want to yield to my friend and Ranking Member of pennsylvania for the purposes of an opening statement. We work and serve together on this committee and eight years now and i look forward to working with you in this new capacity. Thank you, mr. Kelly. Unmute yourself. Thank you. This is the first. Weve been able to do together and ive got to tell you all of us know it was truly an honor to serve in the ways and Means Oversight Committee with john lewis. He certainly an inspiration not just to us but every american and mr. Lewis led this committee with dignity and understood the importance of our subcommittee and the role oversight played in congress with focus on making government more transparent, more efficient and more accountable to the American People. In addition to being legislators we are americans watchdog making sure that their money and every single penny of it, texture dollars are being spent wisely and to their benefit. Therefore, im looking forward to continuing to support and work with you chairman and hope we can find common areas where we can Work Together on behalf of the American People. Unfortunately i understand to date may not be that day for this great bipartisan agreement and today democrats will continue their relentless effort to weapon eyes the tax code for purely political purposes. Democrats have sought to publicize the president s tax return since day one of his presidency despite no evidence that he did anything wrong other than legitimately winning the last president ial election. This issue was furiously raised by my friends on the other side and amplified by many of their friends in the media like the New York Times and its so much like groundhog day. Once again with the exception of not being about his shadow of my friends on the other side are using taxpayers money and their time to drag us through another Campaign Debate that would result resolved four years earlier in the 2016 president ial campaign the people spoke at the ballot box with their vote and in my District Across the southern commonwealth of pennsylvania and the country. This issue, like so many others is one including my friends on the other side and other allies out there they cannot simply let go. They been challenging the selection since 2016 relentlessly and have never accepted the outcome of it. Now my friend President Trump is on the ballot and across the country folks will get a chance to decide whether he gets another term or not. Im confident they will grant the president those next four years but why use this fine committee as an instrument of the Democratic National committee . Why put everyone through this totally partisan groundhog day exercise . What is the substance of this politically partisan groundhog event today . I and able to succeed in his efforts through proper legal channels democrats have been unaided by an illegal likely illegal [inaudible] in the New York Times. This is a stunning breach of public trust. If this can happen to the sitting president of the United States it can happen to any american. Let me repeat that. If this can happen to the present of the United States is can happen to anybody at any level whether we sit in the highest office of the land or the lowest position in society. Now, we have written to the department. [audio difficulties] i ask for unanimous consent to enter both letters for the record. Your microphone is off. Your microphone is off. Im on, guys. Mine is on. Without objection that will be included in the record. That will be included in the record what you just presented. Can you hear me . Now i can. I couldnt hear you before. Okay, without objection it is admitted, is that correct . That is correct. Thank you. I find the New York Times report underwhelming to say the least. Itll does not suggest any illegal behavior took place. What they say that more information is needed to evaluate the specific transactions for items on the returns and at the times allegedly received despite not having all the facts which is never a problem for the times for them to write any article in the need for more information the times settle for insinuations with lines like this could be legally problematic. This may be problematic and that reporting is unfair and not of objective. In my book i just cant believe they can look at that article and say you know what, this is a wellwritten opinion. It is not new by the way. Its manipulation of their outlet. This type of reporting is incredibly unfair and to not objective reporting. For example, if i wrote a 50dollar check to Catholic Charities and took a charitable deduction on my taxes you could say the exact same thing that more information needed to verify this but it could, it could and might be legally problematic we just dont know. Thats absurd premise. Of course, you need a lot more information and that is what it is all about. Irs conducted an audit and if you have more information and makes the determination about tax filing the president has said he is under audit and the New York Times certainly indicates that he is under audit and that is exactly the way the process is supposed to work. Putting public pressure and suggesting impropriety at the irs without evidence will lines the work that the irs employees do improperly puts political pressure and improperly puts political pressure on them to reach a particular outcome. We are weapon eyes he and we know the democrats dont like the president and i serve 47 months of that and theyre unhappy with the last Election Results as youve heard more than 47 months of that and so much for accepting the results of a legitimate election but in a democracy we dont go after the duly elected officials. We dont know because there hasnt been anything pointed out that the president has a serious problem with the taxes paid New York Times claims to review them and even they say they dont know for sure. We do need to let the irs employees do their work and finish their audit they are the only Government Agency in a position to address any possible legal issues and its my understanding that both the president and Vice President taxes urns are examined every year. Since day one democrats have tried to publicize the president s tax returns for their political agenda. Back in 2017 members of this committee claim that we needed to see his returns to prove the president allegedly has mysterious ties to russia. Thats all we heard about from the Mainstream Media then and now it mustve just been the New York Times stated very quietly that the document it receives do not reveal any previously unreported connections to russia. How sad for them. This did not produce the results they wanted our democratic colleagues has simply look for other ways to weapon eyes the tax code. They want to attack a sitting president of the United States and this is a very dangerous procedure in one i think will set a very dangerous precedent and i fear the integrity of our tax code will suffer greatly as a result. As for the idea that the president did something wrong by paying a low amount of income taxes, give me a break. Earlier this year we had a hearing on Corporate Income taxes and i claimed that businesses pay all sorts of federal, state and local taxes, property taxes, employment taxes, sales tax, and on and on and as a businessman some years i paid more taxes than others in other years i paid no taxes. Why . Because some years i simply was more profitable we pay taxes on profit. It tells a very misleading story about a Business Owners tax situation. The president has paid millions and millions of dollars in all sorts of taxes over year and nevertheless democrats continue to suggest that having a lower level of income Tax Liability in any given year is means the president doesnt care about inhibiting to our country and is that true . Absolutely not. The president has donated every single paycheck as president s of the United States to the federal government and so far those donations have total nearly 1. 4 million, hardly in it for himself. [inaudible] this president has why . Going forward i hope this committee can find constructive ways to improve the lives of the American People sold their Government Works better for them and not simply for political gamesmanship. Our constituents want us to Work Together and to solve problems and not just score cheap political points through innuendo, and ive seen no evidence of an proprietary at the irs and im not seen any actual evidence of any and proprietary on the part of the president but the only thing is an on authorized tax michael, youve gone over in time. You should be more concerned about that than this endless pursuit of trying to undo a duly elected president good with that i yield back and im looking forward to a wellbalanced panel and to hear what they had to say about the president s taxes. I think we will hear a lot of good things. Stay tuned. Thank you to our distinguished panel for taking the time to appear before us today discussing a very important issue. Let me introduce all five witnesses. Our first witness is ambassador norm eisen. Ambassador eisen currently chairs as a senior fellow and government studies at the brookings institution. Most recently served as a special counsel for the House Judiciary Committee in 2019 until 2020 including during President Trumps impeachment. This is the author of a new book on President Trump and weve known him well in controlling the ethics issues that occurred during the obama administration. Norm, thank you and we are ready for you. Thank you, Ranking Member kelly, members of the subcommittee. I apologize but i wanted to introduce all the panel. My mistake. Im sorry, mr. Chairman. No, im sorry. Our next witness will be Kathleen Clark and she teaches at Washington University school of law in st. Louis missouri and specializes in ethics, government ethics about whistleblowing and National Security law. She is anticorruption ethics workshops around the world and is provided ethics training for federal and state and local government agencies. Our third witness is letterman. Professor letterman teaches courses in federal tax and serves as director of tax program at the indiana University School of law and has been ranked as one of the ten most frequently cited u. S. Tax scholars. Professor letterman was recently awarded the Fulbright Research grant where she focuses on the transparency of tax rulings. Our fourth witness is steve rosenthal, serves as the senior fellow for the urban institute in his research focuses on federal income tax issues and previously served as legislation counsel for the joint committee on taxation. Final witness is andy gray wall, professor grable is the joseph beck rosenfeld scholar and professor of law at the university of iowa. He taught there since 2011 and focuses on issues related to tax administrative and constitutional laws. Each of your statements for the witnesses will be made a part of the record in its entirety. I would ask you summarize your testimony. To help you with time please keep an eye on the clock which should be pinned to your screen. If you go over the time i will notify you with the top of my gavel and let you know when there is 30 seconds left. Ambassador eisen, you may begin. Thank you again, mr. Chairman. I want to thank Ranking Member kelly and the members of the subcommittee for inviting me to testify at this important hearing on taxpayer fairness as part of this distinguished panel. Our tax system as the chairman pointed out favors the wealthy at the expense of the average folks. It cuts generous breaks for Investment Income and rigidly taxes income earned by people working two and even three jobs to get by. In the system a person earns less than 20000 is more likely to be audited than someone who earns over 400,000 like much else about our tax system that makes no sense. President trumps signature 2017 tax law has made things even worse for regular americans. For example, that law inflicted a trillion dollars worth of damage on homeowners by taking away mortgage and Real Estate Tax deductions and this is a structure that favors those in the very top i