Transcripts For CSPAN2 Fmr. 20240703 : vimarsana.com

CSPAN2 Fmr. July 3, 2024

Wonderful to be here with you all. I have already looked out into the audience and i have seen some former Senate Judiciary colleagues and friends, and i am just delighted that we have this opportunity to engage with these two incredible men to talk about an issue that is so very important to us. I have been getting to know judge ludick who is also distinguished practitioner fill out our institute at uva, and secretary johnson as we overlapped the obama administration. I have had the opportunity to get to know them better in recent months. To say that i am a fan is an understatement. These are two people who are extremely busy and at the same time, are, of public severance whether they are in or out of government at a time when it is so desperately needed. So i want to say publicly, thank you for the work you all are doing and for your leadership on this task force. [applause] mary gave us some of those sobering statistics, and i am going to date myself by saying that hopefully some of you can remember this with me remember when Johnny Carson i am old enough to remember Johnny Carson dash for jay leno needs to do that met on the street interviews and they would talk to people and i wouldnt know how many senators they had, who their elected representatives were, and you would think, oh, ok. And we just kind of let it go. But now we understand what happens when citizens dont understand fully their government or their democracy, and how those things interact with their lives. And we understand what that leads to when we dont have wellinformed citizenry that is not only committed to a robust Democratic Institutions and practices, but also the democratic culture, the health of the body politic that supports those institutions and those practices. That is the focus of the work that were doing at the institute, the work we are doing the work this task force is working on and that is what we want to talk about today. We want to highlight the importance of the work that lawyers can and must do is, in fact, we are to live up to the fact that democracy is not inevitable. Its not like the air we breathe. It isnt just there, we have to work for it, create it and sustain it. With that, i went to turn to judge luttig and secretary johnson for conversation. But to remind you that we are saving time at the end so you will have an opportunity to ask your questions at the end so that those questions ready. I want to start with a question to the first view, judge luttig. If you all are both really, really busy and you have both spent time in government serving in different ways. There are a lot of people that would have walked into the sunset and said i am going to focus on my family, on my practice, focus on my boards and i will vote and call it a day. And that is the exact opposite of what you all have done. I am curious, what it is about the state of american democracy today that led you to answer marys call and to say, yes, i want to chair this task force . What is happening in your estimation that makes the work of the task force so judge luttig important . Thank you, melody. Thank you for creating the task force on american democracy. The secretary may be busier than all of you, but i am not. [laughter] or at least i didnt think i was. [laughter] but for me, it was this. I guess it has been almost two years ago that i had the honor of testifying before the january 6 committee on the attack on the United States capitol. And the first line of my testimony was to this effect a stake was driven through the heart of americas democracy on january 6 2021. And today, our democracy teeters on a nice edge knifes edge. Two years thence to today, if anything, americas democracy and the rule of law are in graver peril than they were on january 2021. The statistics that mary read you tell the story. And it is a frightening story. Millions and millions of americans today, for the first time in American History, the first time in almost 250 years since the founding of our nation, no longer believed in our elections. They no longer trust in our elections. They no longer believed in our democracy. And increasingly, they no longer believe in the rule of law. I recently said that american democracy and the rule of law are the heart and soul of our nation. And that we are fast becoming unsold unsouled, in america. So, dramatically, it has been the effect on our nation of the events of the past threeplus years. Democracy is, as melody said, its not just like the air that we breathe. For our discussion purposes today. It is just the opposite. We, the people, we have to continually breathe life into american democracy and the rule of law. And if we stop for one minute, then just like the human body, our democracy and our rule of law will die. Now, for all of us, it never occurred to us in our lifetime that we would ever, ever be called upon to support, defend, and preserve our democracy, our constitution and the rule of law. Think about that especially for lawyers, because lawyers are uniquely positioned, qualified, but also obligated, obligated by oath to support and defend our democracy, our constitution, and our rule of law. We take an oath to support and defend the constitution of the United States. But all of us americans have an obligation, whether we take an oath to do so or not, to support our democracy and our rule of law. But we never have ever thought that we would need to. Well, that day has arrived. And you not only need to stand up and affirm what we believe and what we do not believe about america, our democracy, our constitution, and our rule of law, if we dont do that today, then tomorrow well wake up and find we no longer have a democracy or a rule of law. And we truly will have witnessed borne witness to and hopefully not sat on the sidelines for what might be the unsouling of america. Melody secretary johnson, judge luttig has talked about the unsouling of america and raised this issue to a level of crisis. I think there are a number of people who shrug their shoulders, who may not see it that way, who may see this as a partisan issue. But you also answered this call. Why . Secretary johnson so good morning everybody. I took the oath of office to support and defend the constitution four times in my career, six if you include the ceremonial ones. And interestingly, the first time i took deal with them to support and defend the constitution from was january 3, 1989, administered by the u. S. Attorney in the Southern District of new york, at rudy giuliani. So the price of getting me to speak here is i have to tell at least one more story. [laughter] and i am in the room full of litigators. How many of you have been federal prosecutors in your career . Raise your hand. Not many, but a couple of you. I was in the u. S. Attorneys office for about three weeks, and judge luttig will not appreciate this because he is an appellate judge. [laughter] melody all fancy. [laughter] secretary johnson what happened below. [laughter] i was assigned my first trial. I had been out of law school for seven years. I was very anxious to try a case. This was my opportunity. It was a twodate drug by and buy and bust case involving a postal inspector and someone undercover who had sold him two bags of pcp in manhattan. But to me, it was the crime of the century. [laughter] so i wrote my Opening Statement and practice my Opening Statement and then i had to practice my Opening Statement in front of my supervisors. And the night before the trial, they said, no, rip that up. This is how you deliver an Opening Statement in the u. S. Attorneys office of the Southern District of new york. If you walk to the you go over to the defense table and you point at the defendant and say that men sold drugs on the corner of 28th and 9th, and i will show you how. You go back to the lectern and deliver your Opening Statement and every sentence must begin with the words the evidence will show. At the end of your Opening Statement, you must say the same thing, whether it is a twoday bust or one monthlong corruption trial. Listen to the evidence, listen to the law as judge luttig will instruct you, and use your common sense. If you do those three things, i am confident you will find the defendant guilty as charged. Three years later, im now a defense attorney. Southern district of new york. My first trial is a defense attorney, i got to finally deliver that Opening Statement that i wanted to deliver for so long. [laughter] i told my client, it was a small drug case and i was doing this pro bono, i said the prosecutor will walk over, he will point you [laughter] i was thinking about what will happen to me. It is a very emotional thing. If you feel tears welling up, let it out. Im delivering my Opening Statement. I did something you should never do as a trial attorney. I departed for my script and i was just connecting with the jury. Eye contact. I can tell i was getting through. Then, i forgot my flight plan. I forgot how i was going to end my Opening Statement, my fantastic Opening Statement. So, i reverted to form. In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, i want you to do three things. I want you to listen to the evidence. I want you to listen to the law as the judge will instruct you. I want you to use your common sense. If you do all three of those things, i am confident you will find the defendant guilty. [laughter] i sat down. It was my drop mic moment. I sat down, and i could hear the Court Reporter sitting about as far away as the judge is. You meant not guilty, not guilty. Sure enough, the next days transcript read not guilty. [laughter] [laughter] anyway, why are we here . We are here because i am proud to say that melody is part of our task force as well. We are here because we took our oath seriously and we believe it is a lifetime oath. We as lawyers have similar obligations, whether in government or private life, to support and defend the constitution. We are very different people. One of us is tall, one of us is a little shorter. One of us has a head of boyish hair. One of us is a democrat, one of us is a republican. One of us is from texas, one of us is from new york. But we all believe in the same constitution and we took an o ath. We both believe the democracy is under threat. We would like to say we live in the most enduring democracy in the world. We always have orderly and peaceful transitions of president ial power. That is no longer true. And you heard mary read the poll numbers about americans attitude towards democracy. In my judgment, democracy is like water. You dont think about its importance until somebody tries to take it away from you. Democracy is like oxygen. You dont wake up every morning thanking god for the air you breathe unless someone tries to take it away from you. In my post government life, i recognize that this is the most important way in which i could contribute to the public good. By joining up with judge luttig, who is one of my heroes, in this cause. I have been gratified by the level of interest we have seen on the listening tour we have been on around the country. One challenge that i see every time we do one of these events is i would like to see younger people take interest in this issue. People in their 20s, even college age, but i see this as the most important way that i as a private citizen can contribute to the public good. When i was asked by mary smith to do this with judge luttig, i did not hesitate, i said yes. Melody before i go on, gentlemen at this table asked the question we all want to know, who won the case . [laughter] sec. Johnson well, i got my first trial, i got a conviction. The second one where i defended the client, hes probably still in jail. [laughter] judge luttig no, we reversed it on appeal. [laughter] ineffective assistance. [laughter] melody secretary johnson, one of us is a republican and the other is a democrat, one is from texas, the other is from new york. The things you dont have in common. I point that out because at a point when the nation is so fractured. We often are talking about polarization, the ways that we differ ourselves, other people that are not like us or we dont know. And in the midst of all of that, and maybe not surprisingly, we are having these challenges to democracy and the conversation about democracy has itself become polarized. Something that i find stunning, that when we use democracy we were at dinner last night and someone who was working on this set of issues said what kind of democracy do you mean . I set that up to ask the question, this is a bipartisan effort that you all are working on. This is not partisan in the least. How are you engaging people and informing people, educating people to that fact, and getting them to trust the process that the task force has underway when there is so much polarization . Where there is so much fracturing right now . Sec. Johnson a lot of people, i think, would believe this is somehow an antitrump effort, that its not. And its not. Its a prodemocracy effort matter who wins in november through the democratic process. Ive supported president ial candidates in the past. I have been disappointed by Election Results in the past. I have been greatly disappointed by Election Results in the past but i have always accepted and respected the results, as have our leaders up until recently. Everyone remembers al gores concession speech in 2000. The Supreme Court shut down the voting in florida and the Vice President recognized for the sake of our democracy, hes got to concede. Richard nixon did the same thing in 1960. He believed illinois was stolen by the kennedy family, but knew he had to concede for the sake of our democracy and the credibility and legitimacy of the presidency. One of the revelations that i have come to is our democracy is frail in that theres a lot of gray in the constitution, in our constitutional norms. Theres a lot of gray and some ambiguity. Therefore, our democracy depends upon Public Servants of goodwill who respect constitutional norms. Our democracy depends upon us electing and appointing mature actors who respect the constitution, respect the rule of law, respect constitutional norms and do not exploit the ambiguity and the vagueness that exists in our constitution. If someone tries to push the envelope, it may break. And im pleased that congress, for example, cleaned up the electoral count act. The ambiguity there in how we count electors. A small group, the congress recommended changes to the insurrection act. The insurrection act is antiquated, it is ambiguous. It has triggers in it for enabling the commanderinchief calling out the National Guard for his or her in patrol, or the activeduty armed forces in domestic situations. That needs to be revised to take away some of the gray. Weve never had to have these conversations before now because you can always depend upon the people we elect. Whether they are barack obama, Ronald Reagan, or a lot of people in between who respected our constitutional norms up until now. And to me, that is not a partisan effort. That is very much a bipartisan patriotic effort. Melody judge . Judge luttig the secretary is exactly right on that last point in particular, fundamental point in particular, which is no organization, certainly no government or form of government can completely protect itself at all. Every organization, every nation requires the goodwill of its representatives. Especially its president , and in this case, the president of the United States of america. For 250 years, it has never even been question until today. But, the task force in particular understands that the concerted effort to politicize not just the rule of law, not just the rule of law, the concerted effort to politicize the rule of law in america, but also americas democracy. That is an obstacle that is almost insurmountable to those of us who are trying to support and defend our democracy today because of the polarization, Political Polarization in america today. But, what we have to do, and the only thing we can do is stand on the truth. Recognizing that today, there is no truth that we agree upon. There are not even facts that we agree upon, but nonetheless, there is a truth in america about democracy and the rule of law. If you transcend all politics, melody, it is not simply bipartisan, it is nonpartisan. It is apolitical. It is literally the foundation of this country. For almost 250 years, america has been the beacon of freedom to the entire world because of its democracy and its rule of law. Ive said recently that unfortunately in my view, america will never again be seen in the same way that it has for 250 years as a beacon of freedom to the world, as a consequence of the past three plus years. Perhaps with time, not five or 10, 15 or 20 years, but more, perhaps america will once again be seen as that beacon of freedom in the world, if we rise to the call of our country today. If we dont, then we will never again be the beacon to the world. Melody judge, you were a minute ago talking about challenges. We cannot agree on a common set of facts. There is seemingly no common set of truths. And doing the kind of work you all are doing in that environment is really challenging. One of the goals of the task force or one of the tools of the task force is using is you all are going into communities around the country to engage, to inform, to educate around the work of elections. The challenges facing election workers. That kind of issues. Can you talk a little bit more about that work . Why going into communities, anything you are starting to see as you have those communitybased conversations. Judge luttig just like any other toppling organization like the task force in this instance, we are all powerless, right . Just like, you think about it, the president of the United States is all but powerless unless he can lead the people and leverage the people in the pursuit of his vision of america, and in this case for the task force, the pursuit of the vision of the task force and the american bar association, right . So, it was essential that we not sit on high in the proverbial ivory tower and just think,

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