Eastern on cspan. Cspans history series landmark cases season two. Starts monday, 9 00 p. M. Eastern with the look of the significance of Supreme Court decision, and exploring the case is farah peterson, associate law professor and mark killenbeck. Watch landmark cases live monday 9 00 p. M. Eastern on cspan. Cspan. Org. And order the book available for 8. 8. 95 and shipping and handling. And for Additional Resources theres a link on the website to the National Constitution centers interactive constitution. Next on oral history. Kenneth carlson, his experience as a west point cadet and his years teaching at military colleges. This interview is part of the west point center for oral history. Its an hour and 40 minutes. Good afternoon, i am in the center for oral history with kenneth g carlson, how are you sir . Im good thank you. Carlson. And youre not the only carlson in your class are you . I am not the only carlson in my class, theres another guy with the same name, kenneth carlson, kenneth r. Carlson, he was a wrestler. I was sort of a basketball player. Did it cause problems for you . The day i reported into the gymnasium, i walked in the door with my little bag and the people who had the roster there said youve already signed in. I said no i havent i just walked in. Kenneth carlson, you just, you already signed in. I said i really have not. Oh my gosh, theres two of them. Kenneth g. And kenneth r. So i was getting his laundry which was too small and he was getting mine so now the classmates know me as ken carlson large and he was ken carlson small but me didnt like that so now he is ken carlson hand some and im ken carlson large. Tell me about your background where you are from and where you grew up. Im an army brat, born in detroit. My father went to the pacific as an army officer. Was going to be part of the invasion in the philippines. He was an ordnance officer. Thats why we were in detroit. He came back, im sorry he didnt. My brother and i went to japan after the war was over and part of mcarthurs pioneers. Wow. Lived in yolk what ma. And they were about the same age and he went to school through some sort of a Mail Order Program and i was two years old at the time and i learned to speak japanese before i learned to speak english. I had someone who taught me. A little boy speaking japanese. So anyway. When we came back, i was three years old and lets see where did we go . We went to the naval war college. They didnt send him to the army war college, they wanted him to transfer into the brand new air force. My father wanted nothing to do with the air force. So they said well, youre a rising guy, 06 by that time. So weve got to get you some purple experience. So they sent him to the navel war college. We enjoyed that time. We moved around for 16 or 17 more times until he ended up in vietnam. As a family. Wow. And ive got a little article that im going to give you a copy of. This is from vietnam magazine, and i have an article in here. A two page article and the interesting part about it is a lot of people said my dad and brother severed. Not a lot of people can say my mom severed too. He was the deputy chief of the mag under sam williams in world war ii. He got the names hanging sam because he was in charge of the executions. My dad and there was another bridge dare. So we lived in a very nice mansion with servants and drivers and that kind of stuff. But they had to go on the social circuit every night for three or four things a night. And it was really bothering my mother for two reasons. She started to become an alcoholic and standing in high heels on mash l stuff for hours on end every day and it was hurting her back. What year was this . This was 195758. I got there 57 and 58. So two years. One conference my dad was coming out of, he lingered for a few. These generals are well timed on where they are supposed to be and when. A huge planter blew up and it was targeted for him. He was supposed to be killed. My mother was upset about that and three weeks later the vietnam men, drove by on a motorcycle and through a hand grenade under my school bus. It was moving and i was sitting up front, thankfully. And it blew up the back. Within a period of the month they tried to kill my dad and me. And my mother was becoming frantic. So just at that point in time, sink pack sent orders to vietnam saying we want general carlson to go to and start the mag there. There were some North Vietnamese. And he said, no. Im not going to do that, i cant do that. Him and my mom stayed up all night writing a letter and stamped top secret as the reasons why they couldnt do that. My brother was at west point. They are trying to kill us. A lot of Different Things. And he was sent back to the pentagon and promoted for the second star and retired in 1962. Yes, sir. How was it living in vietnam for you except for the bus. I had a lot of fun there. I was a 1314yearold kid. I had a diplomatic immunity card. That got me and my friends out of a lot of trouble. We only went to school in the morning because it was too hot in the afternoon to be able to stay in the cluster hot classrooms. So in the afternoon we went thats the frercnch sports club. And it was populated by french girls. Because their parents were working in vietnam after the french left. So i would go there and i was learning french in school but i learned french by talking to the girls in the by canikinis. I had a pretty good time. We went to hong kong and india and took trips and we finally came home in late 1958 and we went instead of back across the pacific we went around the world and came back through paris and i flew on the second 707 to ever cross the atlantic. The first one from new york to paris, we got on the return flight and thats exciting. Thats the first jet ive been on. A second ago, you said white mouse. Some of the listeners might not know what you mean. The vietnamese police, they wear all white. I imagine you learned to speak french pretty well. I was a good french speaker. I took it here into advanced french and i used it during times in europe. But if you dont use it, you lose it. Did you learn any vietnamese. No. I learned vietnamese swear words. We all knew those. Of course. What year did you arrive at rest point . 1962. And what was your expectations when you showed up. My dad did not want me to come to west point. Hes a 31 graduate and my brother was a 61 graduate. He said you have other opportunities, you have Ivy League Schools trying to recruit you to come. I said i think i will, i think ill go to princeton and then president kennedy gave his famous speech. About paying price to protect liberty and i said dad, i changed my mind, i want to go to west point. He said are you sure, its not going to be pleasant. I heard stories from you and gunner, my brother so i will be prepared. Well, when i walked into the door i was too well prepared. You pick up and drop your bag the first day when the man tells you to drop the bag, i set mine down and pick it back up smack head, i dropped my bag and it bounced because i filled it with foam rubber to protect my shaving gear so the guy looked at it and said your bag just bounced. Open that up and they saw all of the foam rubber. He said it is one of these guys who knows all the inside stuff. And at that time there were not enough first class men in the world so it was a challenge. It was a challenge. But i was a good student on the honor roll most of the time. I graduated 57. I sneaked into the 10 . I didnt have academic problems. My tactical officer called me in one day and said i need your help and i said you need my help and this was when i was a cow. I need to give awe new roommate and i said who is that, and he said kevin kelly. Hes in the ejection seat which means he currently stands last in the class and if he goes deficient in anything he is gone. And he is a great hockey player. So he said im moving him in with you and i want you to help him with academics. Kevin could come home from hockey practice and say i need to rest my eyes for just a little bit and lie down. And i said we are having a written journal review tomorrow in electrical engineering. Are you prepared for that. Come over and tell me what i need to know. So i read to him while he was sleeping, okay . [ laughter ] and actually, i brought him up 11 files. When he graduated he was 11th from the bottom. When i moved he was at the bottom. He ended up becoming a doctor. Actually, he was a obgyn. If i ever woke up on an operating table and i saw him over me, i would die on the spot. He was not the sharpest tack in the draw but he was a good guy and im glad he graduated. You said you played basketball for a little. I played for bobby knight when he was the coach and mike silver man, the all american was my roommate. So bobby was speck four working for kates lock who was the coach at that time. Kates wanted to move to South Carolina and asked bobby if he would be the head coach. He said yeah, but im a speck four in the army. Well get you out of the army. And he said will i make as much as a speck four. And somebody wrote a number on the piece of paper and said this is what were going to pay you, and he said okay, ill do it. Bobby knight is a hands on coach. He would grab you. We had buckets of water, he kicked it had and threw chairs across the court in the middle of the basketball game and got thrown it. But he was a super basketball coach. And now, until mike took over, he was the guy who had won the most basketball games in collegiate history. Wow. I only played for him for a year and a half and then i realized i was not going to be a starter and he and i didnt get along very well, probably my fault. So i left and went to the do other activities. As you progressed through and got ready to branch, what was in your mind . What were you think being for branchs . We all had to go in the class of 66 we had to go to Ranger School. They did not send us to the basic course. And they figured maybe if you went to Ranger School youll learn enough about combat that you will succeed this vietnam where we all knew we were going. So i said, look, this was at buckner that i made this decision. They put news a concrete trench and shown us a tank attack and pretty soon all five of them they come up and drive over the ditch and they tell you get your head down. Over the ditch. When im commissioner, i want to be the guy in the tank not the guy in the dish and thats why i wanted to go armor. And you were high enough that you got it. Oh, yeah. Any other classmates were higher . Wesley clark was the number one man in the class. And the top guys go engineers. With some exceptions, well sometimes theres a guy number one who wants to go infantry. And he stood specifically said armor. And i said oh my gosh, there goes my chance to go to berlin where i desperately wanted to go. At the end i said where are you thinking about going wes, and he said well, im choosing between and berlin. I said think quick. I said you dont want to go to mu nick, you will not learn to be a platoon leader if you go there. And i was the extra guy to pick and i went to berlin. How was berlin . It was 90 miles beyond the iron curtain. Am i doing okay . You are doing great. Had three infantry baa tall yoens one tank company and artillery battery and one helicopter detach meant. And the britains had a buer goo day there. So i went in as the platoon leader of company of 40th army and the Company Commander was 34 years old. A guy with a lot of experience. So he said when did you graduate from the basic course . I said i havent been to the basic course . He said what. None of us did, we go to Ranger Schools and airborne and out to you. He said what do you know about tanks . I said not much, but im willing to learn. Unfortunately you cant learn by experience. So here is what im going to do. It was january of 1967. He said im going to send you to an nco tank commander course in west germany and youre going to be there with a bunch of sergeants but youre going to learn everything about a tank. That was the smartest thing he ever did. I learned how to take apart and put them back together in a motor pool and the mud. The troops were not longer able to make fun of me. Before i left i was figuring out and a sergeant came up and said how many times have you done that, turning it this way. You have to keep track, if you turn it 52 times it unscrews and falls off. So im putting things in the logbook. Here is the number of times i turned and the troops thought it was hilarious. And in the motor pool, thats where i lived. I went out and took the and handed it to me and said sir, you have a Long Distance call from america. And i said i do, so i picked it up. The guy on the inside said hi kenny, it is mommy. And by this time im going what . Everybody is going oh my god, we got the lieutenant again. Hes got a lot to learn. It ended up being a good experience. One of the more interesting things is we had an Immediate Reaction platoon having to go out in ten minutes notice. We had to be at check Point Charlie if the russians started making noise and screwing things up again. And we had to live in the bar ricks when that happened. Mine was called out at 6 00 in the morning. In the woods that surrounds berlin. And they said report to which is the commander in chief in the United States army europe, four stars. At block 68. I havent been a platoon leader long so im smart enough to say you will be lead and i will be second in line. He said i know block 68 blindfolded. And we got out there and there was general ill think of his name in a minute. And i reported to him and he was standing there in hunting clothes next to his mercedes. We called him apl. He Said Lieutenant carlson, take your platoon and go down to that wood line on the other end of the open area and i want you to come through wood line and when you come out, i want you to put your unit in line and come with me with five tanks in line driving right towards this mercedes. And i said yes, sir. And i want you to be sure to be buttoned up. Do not let me see heads sticking out of any tanks. Because i want to see if you can do this without hand signals. I had no clue what was coming. We went down the road and turned sbot wood line. And he said were going to lineup. I said guys lets go. Everybody lock your hatches. Were going right for the mercedes and what we were doing was driving wild boar. Sure. And he Said Lieutenant, that was outstanding. And i got a four starleter as a second lieutenant. Which is not too many people get those. Do you still have that piece of paper . I have it in my file somewhere. My Company Commander congratulated me and that was my welcome to berlin. I met my future wife, she was working in the state department. I knew i was going to vietnam. I was a platoon leader for a while and then the aide. Which i did and i did it for two different commanders. Samuel baldwin, in the vietnam as the Division Commander and Samuel Goodwin who retired out of the berlin and one story i need to tell you. Whats that . One of my favorites. Four days into being an aide and general baldwin says we need to go to troops are down training in west germany, we need to go there. So set up the arrangement. Sir, when do you want to go . He said a day and a half from now. So i come out. I have a sergeant who is the stenographer and a sergeant who is the driver. And i said how do i get airplane reservations, how do i get there . And somebody give me a vehicle and speck six said, lieutenant, relax, you have your own plane. I said you do . Not you lieutenant, but the general has his own plane. I said what am i supposed to do. Make sure you have a 45 that is loaded a handcuff that you can carry the generals plane. He needs to carry the contingency plans and hes going to have top secret document spts he is going to be armed. And i said how do i get to the airport. Were going to pick you up in the mercedes and we got to temple hof. Two pilots in front and two passengers in back. Looks like a shchevrolet with wings. I brought my map. Im an Airborne Ranger and supposed to know where i am 100 of the time. Knowing it is a soviet insulation. Im expecting him to give me a quiz and i realize that navigating from the air is not the same from the ground, you cant see the features. They look the same. So all of a sudden i go and say ive got to know. I will ask the pilots. Im looking around. Oh, here, it has a little tube and a funnel. So i said can you hear me up there . Can you hear me up there and the general drops the magazine and said why are you talking into the tube. I said, sir, i didnt realize, i was trying to talk to the pilots. He said let me show you. He reached forward on tand tappn the copie splot said what can i do for you general . I was so embarrassed. He said, let me introduce you to my new aide and tell you about the first time we flew on the plane. I became the laughing stock of berlin. I got a really got aor. You said you had experience in berlin before . Yeah. When i was a cadet on aot which was not cadet troop leader training it, i guess. Okay. I went to germany and a couple of classmates went to berlin after we were done and had a few weeks before we had to go home. We were sitting, a classmate of mine sitting by the new wall. Not the new wall but the wall had been up for two years. This is summer of 64. So were having a beer and looking at the little old lady standing in the corner with the red lielt, green light thing and the light keeps changing and she never crosses the street. She pulls out a pair of by knock lars and looks across the wall. We stood and you happen looked across the wall and about five or six blocks in, a little old man leaned out of a seven story window and they waved and blew a kiss and she put them in her bag and started to walk away and i ran over to her and said with my terrible german and how is it that your husband is in east berlin and youre in west berlin. The day the wall went up, he was on a business trip. I have not been able to talk to him or touch him for the last 2 1 2 years. At that point in time, the meaning of freedom was never clearer in my mind and i said i want to be stationed here. I want to face these guys on the other side of the wall and give them the italian salute every day and i was able to do that because my platoon was moving around all the time and we saw the russians all the time. Wow. That is an incredible story. So i said i wanted to be in berlin. And thanks to west clark, i got to be in berlin. So when did you return back home from germany . It was in the let me see, let me