Now, i tried to enlist in the service the minute we were attacked by japan but i was colorblind and i couldnt get in. But they had what they called the enlisted reserve corps, which they let College Students go into with the idea that you would serve a basic training and then you would go back to school. Their thinking was maybe this war wasnt going to go too far. Youd go back to school and start again wherever it left off. I went to try to enlist. I was colorblind. Had to go back. Finally i got in the army but i was restricted for what i could do. I went to texas for basic training. I spent 16 weeks in texas. They send me from texas to the university of connecticut to continue my education. Unfortunately when i got to the university of connecticut, i found i had had everything they were teaching. I had already been through. So i reported to them that i was wasting my time, and they suggested they would send me to m. I. T. Thats what happened. They sent me to m. I. T. I did my time at m. I. T. From m. I. T. , i was sent to nyu. From nyu, i went to los alamos. Tell me the process of first of all, were you studying at mit and nyu . I was basically in engineering the whole time, because thats what i had done in college. I was a Civil Engineer. I graduated before i went to mit and nyu. Okay. And then once you finished at nyu, how did you end up at los alamos . Well, i was just selected one day. The officers came to our class. I guess it was at nyu and interviewed us. One of them said, well, youre going to go on an assignment someplace else, so well just give you your orders in a few days and youre going to be out of here. Thats when they picked me to go to oak ridge, tennessee, which is where i went to. From there i started out and went to los alamos. But i went by train, no air conditioning. We ended up in new mexico, 16, 20 miles from los alamos. They picked us up in army trucks and delivered us to los alamos. Thats how i got there. The first guy i met was a major who was in charge of security. Major desilva. Of course, he told us we were going to be restricted to that base for the total period we were in los alamos. We wouldnt be let out of there. If we violated security, wed end up over in africa someplace in the weeds. Thats how we started off. Then they changed their mind and eased things up, because they found that a lot of us had not had any experience at all in the service. So as they pointed out out there, some had trouble saluting, didnt know what a salute was. They just knew they were in the service. Thats all. When you were sent to first oak ridge, do you have any what the heck was going on in oak ridge or what youd be doing . No. No. I didnt have any idea. I was put into a barracks and just said stay there. In a couple of days, they came and got out and said, come on, were leaving, and that was that. I had no idea what was going on in oak ridge. None. I guess at the point you met major desilva, did you have any idea then . No. No. It was typical of service in that particular situation. You wouldnt believe it could happen but youd be standing in the middle of it, and you wouldnt really know what was happening. There was a lot happening that you didnt know about, and yet you were part of it happening. I didnt know what they were doing at oak ridge. I didnt know what they were doing up at los alamos. I didnt know anything about anything. All i knew was what i was doing. Lets get into that. Tell me after this meeting with desilva, what happened to you next . Did they bring you on in . Well, within a couple days after we arrived and were screened by desilva and warned about the security, we were all called to an assembly room. The physicist who are listed at los alamos in those days came in and began to interview. These physicists had a list of people in their hands, and they would call a name. Whoever the person was would go out, and they would have an interview and decide where this guy or girl was going to be assigned. In my case, it got all the way down to i was the last one in the room. When Norman Ramsey walked in the room and said youre a Civil Engineer. I dont know what were going to do with you. Thats how that was my introduction. As i said, i told him i didnt get myself out there. So we worked from there. By that night, i knew what we were doing. He told me what we were doing. Of all the people i knew in that site at that time, nobody knew what we were doing except me. None of the gis knew. They knew they were working in the Technical Area. They knew they were working here or there. They didnt really know what they were doing. They knew the specific job they were doing, but they had no idea why they were doing that job. How did he explain to you what it was that you were doing . He had to tell me ultimately after he found out that i was a Civil Engineer and i was there, and he was going to have to use me, he said come on to my office with me. He took me to his office and said here is what were going to do. Were going to build a big bomb, and were going to drop it. And he said this i am in charge, meaning ramsey, im in charge of the Delivery Group to get this bomb over to japan. He said, youre going to be on my team. He said, there are only five of us on the team. My first job, believe it or not, was to develop ballistic tables to use to drop this bomb. We did that. We had a pilot and bombardier from akron, ohio. My recollection is the pilots name was shields and the bombardier was named simple. They would come over. We went to windover. They would come over the plane and drop some dummy bombs. These were bombs that looked like pumpkins basically. They would drop them, and wed photograph them. Wed work backwards to find out how youd have to set the bombay the bomb site to make those bombs go where you wanted them to go. We had to develop the bomb tables before we could start to drop the bombs. So we did that for some time. And i worked on that with two gis. Three gis. One from chicago. Two were not engineers at all. One was a young boy from chic o chicago. So there were five working on that. Tell us how you ended up at wendover because they were going to open a test site. They brought this 509 Bombardment Group had been in europe flying b17s. They came to the United States, picked up a bunch of b17s and they were sent to wendover. They had to have somebody to run wendover. I have no idea. I happened to be standing in the right place at the right time, for me. They just said one day, youre going to leave los alamos tomorrow. Youre going to do this, that, and the other, and youre going to end up supposedly in wendover. Now, tie a devious route to do that. I had to go to the field in albuquerque. I had to change from gi clothes to civilian clothes. I went out and got on a c47. I didnt know who was on the c47. Then we leave and we file a flightplan for Salt Lake City or for las vegas. Before we get there, the pilot changes the flightplan, and we turn off and we go to wendover. Los alamos thinks were going to las vegas, and they dont know weve gone to wendover. That was part of the security. Then, of course, from wendover, then i flew down to salt and sea, california. Ultimately salton sea was developed so they could take off at we couldover in b29s, fly over San Francisco, down the west coast, and then fly in over the salton sea and make the bomb drop on a target which was floating in the sea. The idea trying to replicate a long flight with that bomb in bombay. Meantime they are making measurements in the plane to make sure the bomb is riding the way it should. Were on the ground with cameras waiting for them to drop that bomb so we can take a picture to see where it lands and how accurate they are. Checking the readings weve given them to use in the bomb site. Now, occasionally, we would not only drop the bomb, but ultimately if it missed by an amount, wed go down 35 feet and dig it up and see if we could figure out if the tail bent or Something Like that. That was all part of it. Meantime i lived in the officers quarters down there wearing civilian clothes. These young guys used to shove cue sticks in my face, buying my newspaper or magazine. They thought i was a draft dodger. They didnt know, so it didnt matter. You couldnt let them know you were u. S. Army. Oh, no. Nobody down there knew. No. They couldnt, because then id go from there back to the salton sea. Once a month, id go back to los alamos because i had to go back to get paid. So since i was a gi, i would go back. Id get my sergeants pay, and the next day a lack would drive me back down to the field again. Captain winslow would get my clothes off me and put civilian clothes on me and id take off for wendover once again. That went on for once a month until almost the end. How long were you at los alamos before they sent you to wendover . I probably worked at los alam alamos. They had films they used in hollywood to splils film in the movie industry. Thats what we used to read the transmissions from the airplane that was dropping the dummy bombs. That way we could work backwards to see where the bomb left the plane and where it hit the ground and you developed figures that way. So i probably spent six months or so. Did you say you were married already at that point . No. No. I got mattered at the end of the war when i got back. Thats how i got back. I talked the general into letting me come back and get married in berkeley, california,. Tell me a little more before we go from there. What was it like in los alamos. All those people there and nobody can talk about what they were doing. Los alamos, when you got first of all, it sat up on top of a mountain. It was a boys school at one time, a very exclusive boys school. To get there you had to drive up a road to get up the mountain. If you went off the side of the road, you had a nice roll down the hill. Then when you got to the gate, there was a gate at the top, a guard gate, where they stopped you and got your identity and so forth. From there you go on in. The first thing you came to was the Technical Area. The beginning of the Technical Area. Now, it was up on the level part of the property, and thats where a drugstore was and a Grocery Store and so forth and where the original boys school used to be. You came to that first. When you went over that hill and on down the bottom, thats where all the military personnel live. The lacks, engineers what do you call . Special the army police. Mp. Mps. The mps had their barracks. Went through that and got to the bottom. Then when you got to the bottom of the hill, then you began to get into the various areas where everything was restricted. You couldnt go there unless you worked there. So there were many sites back in these hills where only the people who worked on that particular component could go to work. In other words, i couldnt go what happenedering anybodys site. I was restricted to my site where i worked. So the place spread out quite a long way. Now, ive been back since. Of course its much larger now. Is that where you met your wife . Yes. Tell me a little about that, about her, what she was doing there. Like i said, she worked for university of california Radiation Lab at berkeley. She was a single girl. My recollection is when i met her, she might have been working at a bookstore. Im not sure. She had gotten her degree from the university. She was working for the university and she had a side job working at a bookstore in berkeley. I met her there. She the university of california asked her to go to los alamos. She was single and had nothing else more important to do, so she said what do you want me to do when i get there . Well, youre going to be a secretary to admiral parsons and ramsey. Youll work in that office. Now, one thing she had the talent. She could do anything in the secretarial field plus a college degree. So she was the lead person in the office. There was another girl by the name of hazel green bacher who was also secretary but not college material. Thats how marie claire got started. I heat her walking back and forth in the halls. I pointed out, i stopped and gawked at her one day and she wented to know what the hell i was looking at, and i told her the best looking legs at los alamos. And that did it. I asked for a date. She wouldnt go. Then she called me about ten days and said i got a free ni t night. That was all i needed. Something i was just reading i wanted you to tell me about, tell me about dick ashworth. You talked about him a little bit earlier. Yeah. Tell me about working with him, what he was like. Well, when i met ashworth, naturally he appeared out there. Avenues commander, so he was no stinky little guy like i was. He showed up in the office, introduced himself. He had a great big english bulldog he had with him as long as he was in the Technical Area and not someplace where dogs wouldnt be allowed, he had this english bulldog. He began he was a weapons officer. He told me he was going to start running this particular part of the show, and i was going to be working with him, which was perfectly fine by me, because he was one of the finest guys i ever met in my life. So i began to work with him. I particularly remember hed have that english bulldog with him and the dogs tongue would fall off and ashworth would pick the tongue up and put it back in his mouth. When we started down salton sea and wendover, he stayed primarily in los alamos, although he did direct what was going on at salton sea and windover. He was doing it through me. Giving me the orders and tell me what to do. But he was a great guy. What rank were you at the time . I was a sergeant. Tell me about the meeting with ashworth and getting your civil i dont know clothes in delaware and about your father and all that stuff. I told you they decided i should be traveling in civilian clothes. They didnt want me to travel in uniform. Now, one thing we had, there were a lot of people in wendover at salton sea, at los alamos, who worked around the country in various capacities who traveled, for instance, in uniform. An ordinary civilian would go, if he was going to go, for instance. The bomb release mechanism was designed and built by the Dupont Company in wilmington delaware. The engineer would put on an Army Officers uniform generally. Maybe as high as a major. And he would go to wilmington, delaware and inspect the work that was being done, identify himself as major soandso, and thats the way it was accepted. In my case, we did it the other way around. I was the only one i know in los alamos that went around in civilian clothes and did what i did. To the best of my knowledge, nobody else went from uniform to civies except me. When these guys went where they went, the fellow i was telling you about that went to delaware, i came from delaware. I knew the Dupont Company. I knew exactly where he was going. So when he started telling me what he was going to do, i was describing where he was going to be. But these he just worked on the development. Tell me about you go home to get your clothes, you cant tell your dad and mom whats going on. You know, tell me about what your father thought. Well, i pulled in they sent me home. My recollection is i got on a c c47. Now im having trouble. I might have gone i might have gone back to delaware on a train. When i got to delaware, of course, i showed up at my fathers house, knocked on the door. He opened the door and almost dropped dead. He was wanting to know what was i doing and why was i there. Of course, i said ive got to get some civilian clothes. Then immediately he starts. Well, i dont understand. Youre in the army. Why do you have to get civilian clothes. Im not supposed to tell him about that. So we spent a good day and i told him i had to go to philly the next day because i couldnt get the clothes in wilmington. They told me not to do that. He bugged me the whole time. Why am i doing this, i dont understand it, are you sure you didnt do something wrong. I dont think this has to be part of the story, while hes doing it, hes got his wallet out pulling out 20, and i think ive died and gone to heaven. But so the next day, we got in the car, and we went to philadelphia, and we went up to my recollection is a place called bond. I had been there before. We just went in and bought these clothes, paid for them, walked out. And then i had the trouble with the policeman, which ended up being a nonevent, but it shook my father up. He really got to the point where he was suspicious. He thought something really wrong was happening. We talked about it off camera. Tell me what the Police Officer did and how you got out of that situation. Well, the Police Officer was right. I had gone through a red light. I realized when i did it. It was one of those things where youre going a little too fast, the light changes, and you cant stop. I went through it. He immediately jumped on it. Right away quick he had me. Pulled me over. First he looked in the car, and he said how come youre not in the army. I said im just not in the army. I dont understand. A guy youre age, youre not in the army . I said no, im not in the army. He said, you just passed a light back there, ran through a red light. I said, well, okay. If i did, i did. Im sorry. I didnt mean to do it. I knew i had slipped through. I didnt mean to. So he said i dont understand this. Everybody is in uniform, and youre sitting there at your age with no uniform. So i was told before i left los alamos, i was given that card. They said if you get to the point where it gets a little sticky, hand them the card. And the card said this person is representing United States research and development, blah, blah, blah, had a name on it. Please do not delay him. Whatever hes doing is legitimate. He read that, and he looked at me for a bit, and then he almost threw the card at me. He said i dont know what youre doing but go ahead. Well, that, of course, started my father wanted to know what the card said because i hadnt shown the card to him, and i wouldnt show it to them. One thing when you do these kinds of things, some of the rules you have to make them up yourself. Ne cant give you all the detail. I knew i wasnt supposed to hand him the card, my father. He was absolutely adamant he had to see that car. After going and buying me civilian clothes, you know, he had to be suspicious anyway wondering what the hell was happening. So that was the way that worked. Tell me about a little bit more about wendover and what that was like. You were talking about wearing civilian clothes and get there and overseeing this project with a bunch